← Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, this is Eric. I produce the show. We've once again done the thing where we plan a week off nearly six months in advance, but then I think we forgot to tell anyone about it. Sorry about that. But this week, like last week, we will be re releasing one of our Trailblazer episodes from the archives to call attention to the historical trailblazers Kickstarter that we are working on with Adriana Herrera and Ali Hazelwood to bring you really stunning editions of romances by Beverly Jenkins, Jeannie Lynn, K.J. charles, Lisa Claypas and Loretta Chase. The Kickstarter has six days to go. It ends on June 2nd. You really ought to take a look over at the Kickstarter page to see the wide range of things that are available here, the different books, the audiobooks, which are very impressive. Go over, take a look, see if you're interested in buying one of these gorgeous things that gives these brilliant books the love and attention they deserve in the year 2026. That's it from me. Stay tuned for the Trailblazer episode and we'll be back next week.
- [01:27]
B
Romance is probably the fastest to change. It's the most reactive, I think, of all the genres. One, because we write so fast, we as a collective, I myself do not write that fast, but people will speak negatively about writing to market. But it's not so cut and dry. It's a conversation. Like a romance as a genre is more of a conversation because it moves so fast and so fluidly and so many people do it. It's hard to put your finger on it because it's, you know, again, that giant nibbless ball
- [01:59]
C
that was the voice of Jeannie Lynn.
- [02:02]
D
Welcome to Fated Mates, everyone.
- [02:05]
C
I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.
- [02:08]
D
And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. Jeannie Lynn is an amazing romance author and we were really excited to talk to her as a trailblazer for what we consider, you know, historical romance often gets really pigeonholed into being like 19th century European. And obviously we I don't know when this is airing. We will be talking to some other romance authors who were blazing trails in different ways. But we were really excited to talk to Jeannie because she opened up the door to historical romance set in Asia, but not during the 19th century. So her first book, butterfly Swords is and many of her books were set during Tang Dynasty China, which is around like 7,800ad we asked her some questions about why she was interested in that time period and talk about how like once somebody kind of goes down an interesting path. Other folks can figure, you know, and readers love it. Other authors can see a path for themselves. She is a really fun, engaging. She has great stories.
- [03:16]
C
Great interview.
- [03:18]
D
It's a great interview. And we think that you are going to really enjoy hearing Jeannie's past romance.
- [03:23]
C
One thing that I just. That didn't come up in the conversation, and I want to just say before we start, is that as much as we love butterfly swords and have talked about it on multiple interstitials, we put a Hidden Moon, the most recent in her Lotus palace series on the 2020 Best of the year list from Theta Mates. So we're renowned, devout Jeannie Lynn fans. Jeannie Lynn fans here at Fademates, and we can't wait for you to spend a little time with her. It was a real delight. Jeannie, welcome. We're so excited to have you.
- [03:57]
B
I'm really excited to be here. I've been listening, and so this is like, kind of a geeky girl fan moment for me.
- [04:05]
C
Well, thank you. I mean, we're. It's sort of a geeky girl fan moment for us because I was thinking that, I mean, I think the first time we talked about a Jeannie Lynn book on fated mates was like the third or fourth interstitial when we did road trips.
- [04:18]
D
Right? Road trips, yes.
- [04:19]
B
Oh, wow. So I've never heard one where you mentioned me. So I think that's, you know, that's probably lucky. Maybe that's best.
- [04:27]
C
I feel like I can't listen to podcasts where people talk about my books.
- [04:30]
D
So, you know, I never heard. It's better to just. No, we said nice things, but you don't have to, you know.
- [04:35]
C
Exactly. I mean, we usually. We almost exclusively say nice things. We don't recommend books that we don't love.
- [04:41]
B
I actually had a funny moment when a person from my real life or a person from my real life was like, oh, do you listen to fated Mates because they mention you? And I was like, I do listen, but not, you know, I never miss that mention.
- [04:56]
C
Well, now we're really going to mention you because you're joining us as one of our trailblazers for the season, and we are so excited to have you.
- [05:04]
B
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
- [05:07]
D
So one of the reasons that we were really interested in talking to you is because we, you know, we're always looking for people who are, like, doing things that are, like, new and different. And, you know, we've talked to people that have been around in romance for a long time. But in 2010, when you published Butterfly Swords, although there had been a book by Jade Lee that had a Chinese heroine, which was set in Shanghai, but in the 19th century. But we're really interested in talking to you because you're so, I think, blew off the doors of historical romance by choosing a different time and place than sort of that regular, like, you know, like what I think a lot of readers had been taught to understand about historical romance, which is it's white characters in London in, you know, the 19th century.
- [05:52]
C
So people didn't fall in love before 1800.
- [05:54]
D
Never. That's just like a little backstory, maybe for our audience. But we'd love to hear you about your path kind of to through romance and in writing those books.
- [06:06]
B
Yeah, and it's really good that you mentioned Jade Lee, because I was a fan of that series before I ever thought of ever writing a romance at all. And I actually found Jade Lee because I was on a road trip. And, you know, this is paper book, the time of paper books. Right. I was on a road trip, and I stopped in some. You know, I visit bookstores when I go on road trips. I stopped in a bookstore and I found her book, and I was amazed. You know, I had only read the romances that, you know, I had been introduced to by my best friend and her mom. And I was like, oh, my gosh. You know, there are romances set in China, and most of the books were one Caucasian character and then one Asian character, one Chinese character. And then there was actually one book in the series. Stop me. I'm gonna geek out too much, so I'll.
- [06:59]
D
No, that's why you're here.
- [07:00]
C
One of us.
- [07:01]
B
There's one book in the series where it was Chinese, both characters, so it was a Chinese couple, but it was set in Shanghai, like you said. And I was just amazed and just, I don't know, thrilled to kind of see something different. But on top of that, I also was a big historical romance reader from the 90s era, where I think there were a lot more settings. Like, it was sort of the exotic settings were more popular then. So it was the idea of, like, oh, historical romances will whisk you away into a different setting. Vikings and Russia. And, you know, I know that those are, you know, European setting still, but still a little more exotic. And I felt that, you know, that's where I kind of got my roots of romance reading is in that era of historical romance. And so I always wanted to be wished away. I wanted to travel somewhere when I Read and you know, and that's when I think I almost feel like in some ways my romances are a throwback. Even though people are saying like, oh, it's new, you know, nothing, nothing's new. Right. What's old is new again kind of thing. But that was where I was coming from as a fan of the historical romance genre and a fan specifically of Jade Lee. And so at one point, I was teaching high school at the time, and teaching high school is probably one of the most emotionally, I teach middle school,
- [08:38]
D
so I know what you're talking about.
- [08:39]
B
So it's like you're so committed. Your head is always teaching, you're always with your students, even when you're not there, even when you're not grading. And there was one point when I was working the summer to prepare for a whole new program for At Risk. I taught in South Central, so it was high risk and low performing schools, urban. And so on the second day of school, on the second day of school, when starting this program, all of a sudden I broke down afterwards and I cried. I was so tired, I was so done. And I was like, oh my gosh, it's day two. Usually I get a couple months in before I cry. And I was really, I was like, I can't do this. This is the beginning of the school year. And my friend was like, you need to do something for you. I had spent the whole summer teaching and preparing for this small school. And she was like, you got to do something for you. And that's when I was like, well, you know, I've always wanted to write. You know, I've always wanted to write. And I've always, you know, you write in your notebook all through high school years and things like that. I would write little stories that I never intended to show anybody. I showed it to my little sister and that's about it. And then so I was like, okay, okay, that's the one thing I want to do. I'll try doing that. So I looked for classes on. Because that's me. If you want to learn how to do something, like class on it. I'm such a student.
- [10:07]
D
Well, that's the teacher thing, right?
- [10:09]
B
Yeah, yeah. I laugh because there was a time when I couldn't. I was very nervous speaking. So I went to the library and looked up like how to public speak. That's how I do things. So I looked up how to write romance and there was a UCLA extension class taught by Barbara Ancrum. And I was, I was like, okay, okay, this is, this Sounds really great. You can take it at night, right? So I could take it at night after, after teaching all day. And then I. I hadn't read her before. So my sister, who was actually in an MFA program, my sister was much more on the path of becoming a professional writer, a bona fide writer way before me. And then she's like, well, read one of her books. See if you trust her. Like, you know, see if you can trust her. And I went to the library, I went to the bookstore, I found, you know, a couple Barbara Engine books. And I was reading them and I was like, oh my gosh, I. I was crying. I love the books that like make you feel that hitch in your chest and you're like, rings you out. Like, I read romance to Ashley, cry. I so good. And she gave me that feeling like I just like, oh, the tension, the emotional tension was so good. So I was like, okay, I think this is who I want to learn from. But I was telling my sister, I was like, I don't think I will ever write emotional tension this well. Because, you know, I had done these fun little fantasy writings. And that was my thing is I didn't feel like my characters were gripping the way Barbara's characters were gripping. And my sister told me something that would still sticks with me. She said, that's not her first draft. So I was like, oh, that's such
- [11:47]
C
a good piece of advice. Oh my gosh.
- [11:50]
B
Just to give you an idea about how.
- [11:52]
C
Gosh, that's transformational.
- [11:54]
B
That moment further advanced my sister was. And how a green writer I was. Because I was like, you write something once for fun and you just leave it. You never come back to it and it's in your notebook, you know. And, you know, I just thought good writers stumbled upon it or were talented or just, you know, they had something that I didn't. Right. But I was like, oh, funny that, you know, I took this class and again, never intending to ever show this book to anyone, I. I took the class just for fun, right? Because I was like, sure.
- [12:27]
D
So stressed out at work, right?
- [12:29]
B
And as I was taking it, well, right before I took it, my. My former brother in law, her then fiance, he was also in an MFA program. And he said, let me give you some advice. And again, I'm totally green. He's like, think about what you want to write. Because you're going to go in there and then the first day they're going to say, what do you want to write? And they're going to go around the room and everyone's going to say what they're working on and then you're not going to have any idea and you're going to freak out. And that's why I ended up writing about nuns for the last two years.
- [13:00]
D
The first thing that came to his mind were nuns.
- [13:03]
B
Nuns. Well, he went to Catholic school, so he's like, nuns. And then, so I was like, okay, okay. And again, I'm hearing this totally green. And I think, I'm like, I, I'll think of some ideas. I'll think of some ideas. And I go to the class and of course, first day, what are you writing? And I was like, oh my gosh, he was right. And so I was like, oh, I have this idea, you know, it's kind of a fantasy romance, because I'd only written fantasy. And it's, you know, like western romance and eastern romance, like kind of an east meets West. These like warriors, white warriors, go to an Asian, you know, Chinese based, you know, land, and they, they meet a princess, they get involved in a war. And I'm, I'm talking through all this and I'm sure everyone in that, that class was like this kid, this is the kitchen sink, you know, on their sword fights, you know, and so I'm saying this and, and you know, they didn't laugh at me. They were very welcoming. And I also said in that same class, oh, I just started reading Nora Roberts. She's pretty good. And yeah, so I'm sure at that point the class was like this kid. But I stuck with it. And from that class I met some people who wanted to continue after the class. And so we started meeting with Barbara as sort of a mentorship. It was a guided critique. So we were still, you know, she was still a teacher, you know, guided mentor to us for the next year. And that was really what started me on the path of wanting to get serious with this.
- [14:35]
C
How many other. So were you all. You were all writing romance at the same time?
- [14:40]
B
All.
- [14:40]
C
You were all romance writers?
- [14:41]
B
Yes, yes. So it was specifically a romance class because I knew, you know, when I said I wanted to write, I was like, I want to write romance. That's what I read. That's what I love, you know.
- [14:49]
C
Yeah.
- [14:50]
B
And so we were all pre published, I guess, or unpublished and you know, at various levels, me probably being the most green, as in I had just discovered Nora Roberts. Even though I had read romance for
- [15:01]
C
years, I just like, sure, everyone has that, that author. They've just never.
- [15:06]
B
My best friend's mom didn't read Nora Roberts, you know, she was Jane and Kran's, you know, Joanna Lindsay, but there's no Nora Roberts. So I go into this room, like, I've discovered this author.
- [15:19]
D
Oh, my God, that's amazing.
- [15:20]
C
I love it. So I want to talk about this group of people. Did you stick. Are you still. Did you stay with them for many years, or was it just the year?
- [15:29]
B
Just a year. And they were just. They were my. Most of them went to my wedding. You know, we were really close, but I ended up moving a couple years after that. So before I was published, I moved away. But at the time, you know, and one of them has passed away, you know, we kind of went through life, you know, things together, and we've drifted apart. I still keep in touch, definitely with Barbara, though. You know, she is. She's just still. I still consider her like the I learned everything I needed to know kind of thing. Well, that's not true, because I keep on learning, but she really set me on the path.
- [16:05]
C
So when you. The reason why I asked about them is because I'm really curious always about the way that we build our communities as writers. And so I'm curious as. When you moved, as your career has moved, are there. Do you have a new community? Do you feel like there are people who helped you along the way in really powerful ways, aside from Barbara, or in addition to Barbara?
- [16:31]
B
Yeah, absolutely. The first thing I did when I moved to St. Louis was I found the local romance writing group, and I actually knew some people from online on there already. Selah Carson. Right now, my little circle is still the same circle I formed right when I moved. It's Selah Carson and Chantel Madison, Amanda Berry, you know, Priya Quinlan, you know, so it's like those people have really. There's like, you know, some people I interact with more online, but, you know, there's that close core group, and they just kind of get me through. Sometimes they get me through the day, sometimes they get me through the book, sometimes they get me through, you know, the whole. The whole year of, you know, you have newborn children and you have a book that's due and, you know.
- [17:18]
D
Right, right.
- [17:20]
B
But, yeah, that's really. I don't think I could write alone.
- [17:23]
C
I've.
- [17:24]
B
I've always been, you know, I need a group of people. And we. We keep each other even. You know, we all write different things, but we keep each other going. You know, sometimes it's at the level of critique, but sometimes it's just at the level of emotional support in the Sounding board.
- [17:40]
C
It is such a lonely job for a lot of people. I mean, I know some people like it just to sit alone in their. In their. And so community becomes so vital. So was that first book that you're talking about, the book that you started that ultimately became Butterfly Swords?
- [17:56]
B
Yeah, well, that first. The first. There's the unpublished prequel of which I've never been able to. You know, one day I'll get it somewhere and just, you know. But, yeah, that was the first book. And then I took a long time. Took over, I think, almost two years to finally finish that first book. And it had all those great things I talked about, you know, the sword fights and the princesses and. But then at some point, I made a decision. I was like, okay, I'm. I don't have to make it fantasy. I'll make it China. I'll make it Tang Dynasty China, which is what I was basing my fantasy world on. And I'll just keep on going from there because, you know, Joanna, Lindsay would. She always had, like, oh, there's this imaginary European country, you know? So I was like. I was like, okay, so these guys come from an imaginary European country that made it to China, and I'm just gonna go with it, you know, I had no idea.
- [18:47]
C
Listen, I love that I knew nothing. Well, you did, but you knew so much because you were a romance reader. I think that's the thing, is the conventions are so different for us.
- [18:58]
B
Yeah. I would say the secret to quote, unquote, success, the secret to actually getting this to work was having no clue. And because. Having no clue, I had no fear.
- [19:10]
C
Yes.
- [19:10]
B
Like, I just.
- [19:11]
D
Just.
- [19:12]
B
Let's just do it. Why not? And then. So that first book. Yeah, I cobbled it together, but at the end, there was actually a story there. I was amazed. I was like, okay, it's not great, but there's a story I didn't know. It wasn't great either, by the way. I didn't know that. But then, you know, I. And by then, I had been reading advice from other places. I had finally joined rwa, and Jessica Faust said, you know, you finish your first book, start querying it, and then start your second book. Like, why are you. Why are you just waiting? So I'm like, okay, I was querying that first book, and I just started that second book. And so that second book is what Butterfly Swords was. And it was just being in that group, as soon as we all started our second books, I was amazed because I couldn't tell that my writing had changed. That much. But like, seeing everybody else's writing, I was like, oh, my gosh, it's all of a sudden, like, from book one, the end, to starting book two, everyone grew so much. I can feel it, I can hear it, I can see it. And I was hoping the same was true of my book because I couldn't see it in me. But, yeah, that Butterfly Swords was always a book too. And I think if you read it, you'll see there's some characters and things in a backstory that was supposed to already be established.
- [20:27]
D
I have a question just about how you decided to write about the Tang Dynasty. Was that just of personal interest to you or so you were happy to be researching or. Right, because it's such a specific. I mean, any number of. Of dynasties you could have chosen in during Chinese histories.
- [20:44]
B
Well, the Tang Dynasty is one where women, and again, this is, relatively speaking, women had a measure of independence. Women reached high levels of government. There was an empress during a small portion of the Tang, you know, who. Not an empress, she actually became emperor. She was considered the emperor, Empress Wu. And so on top of that, just even at the lower levels, you know, women could seek divorce, women could sue for property. You know, there were some basic things there overall, women's rights, they were definitely a lower class, but even those little points would give women a little bit more agency. So I was always attracted to that period. If you're a fan of Chinese history, it's one of. One of the golden, you know, one of the periods that's the golden era. So that was another thing that drew me to it. And then, you know, as any historical fan will tell you, the clothes were really, really nice. The clothes and the hair and everything were really. The aesthetic. The. The Tang Dynasty aesthetic is really attractive too. And so all those things, I. I didn't do a lot of research until I kind of like, okay, now I've made a decision. This is not historical fan or this is not fantasy romance. This is going to be historical romance. And I started researching a lot of. I'm reading everything and, you know, joining historical groups and just starting to absorb as much as I could to start to world build.
- [22:20]
C
This episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by the Steambox. The Steambox is a romance book subscription service that features books written by authors from marginalized communities and underrepresented groups. Books are paired with items that celebrate self love and embrace one's individual sexuality.
- [22:39]
D
Sarah, I could not be more thrilled about this.
- [22:41]
C
Listen, I could get hard behind one of these boxes.
- [22:44]
D
I think As a matter of fact, old school romance readers like us remember the joy of getting romance novels in the mail every month. But now they come with vibrators.
- [22:53]
C
Look, that's how you know you are evolving in the right direction.
- [22:59]
D
Absolutely. This is a really cool company. The founder's name is Melissa Gill, and she donates 5% of each box's profits to an organization in the first year of business. The Steambox, donated to Lilith Fund, Families Belonging Together, the National Network to End Domestic Violence, and Trans Women of Color Collective.
- [23:17]
C
So you can know that when you subscribe to Steambox, you're doing well, as well as reading well and maybe feeling well. I was lurking on the Steambox's Instagram feed this morning, and the Winter box, aside from having a bunch of great books in it, also had a face mask and a candle and so soaps and a vibrator in the shape of a rosebud so you could, you know, get it done beautifully.
- [23:41]
D
Amazing. So you should all check out the Steam box and support this small business. You can find her website at www.steamylit.com.
- [23:51]
C
that's S-T-A-M-Y-L-I-T.com. as always, you can find more information in show notes about the Steam box, or if you're using a smart podcasting app, you can click the link right in the app. And for Fated Mates listeners, only using the code Fated Mates will get you 10% off your subscription. Thanks to the Steambox for sponsoring the episode. Were you querying that first book and then the second book became Butterfly Swords?
- [24:23]
D
Or.
- [24:24]
C
Or, you know, at what point did.
- [24:25]
B
Were you.
- [24:26]
C
Were you aware of, you know, this is happening. We're publishing this beast.
- [24:31]
B
Well, I. I set a limit. I set a limit. I said, okay. Because also all these blogs were saying people make the mistake of querying their first book too long or something like that. So my first book, very quickly, I was like, okay, 10 rejections in. It's not going. I could feel it. It's not going anywhere. So I just kept on writing.
- [24:52]
C
This feels very. This is very me. You hear those stories about people query their books for 40 times and then finally get an editor. I'm like, I would just be done. I would be watching T.
- [25:05]
B
But I set a limit. But I set a limit of 100. I set 100 rejections. And no, that was for Butterfly Swords. For the first book, I was like, 10. And I know I don't need to hang on, but for the second one, I was like, okay, 100 rejections. And I think I might have gotten. I might have pulled that number, because you can probably already tell. I'm very much like, I need definitive limits. I need numbers. Otherwise, I will just. I don't know how much is enough. And So I said 100. And I probably pulled it because an author I liked said something like that, right? And so I was like, okay, I'm 100. And then I finished the book. And this book finished in two months. Like, unlike. Well, rough draft. Let's say rough draft.
- [25:46]
C
Wrote different. Yeah.
- [25:48]
B
Yeah. It's like two years versus two months. Because I just had. Like, I knew. Like, I knew the answers to all the questions I had before. And plus, I had learned from Barbara that just write forward. Like, instead of like. Like getting in your feelings or getting in your head and worrying. And I was like, can I just assume all the perfect edits have been made? And she's like, assume all the perfect edits have been made and just write forward. And I had never done that before. And so I was like, okay. If a teacher tells me something, I'm like, okay. Such a good student. Yeah. And then so I finished. It took a long. Took a lot longer than two months to edit it and everything. But when I was querying it, I gave myself 100. And I was. I would track it. And there was a bunch of us. Bria Quindlen was one of those, you know, we were like, querying our books at the same time. And you're like, compare. You know, you're like, oh, I got a rejection today. I got a rejection today. And, you know, I got a rejection on my birthday. You know, like, you. You kind of get to the point where you like the pain. You're like, it hurts. But I kind of felt left out on days when I didn't get a rejection. After a while, I'm like, no rejections today. But you kind of get used to it. You're in that grind. And I didn't. Yeah, I was laughing when I said 100. I didn't realize how close I would get.
- [27:06]
C
But what kind of rejections did they look like? What were they thought or just forms.
- [27:11]
B
Form for the most part. A couple of them said, you know, a couple of them were requests that said I didn't like it as much and I would tweak it along the way. And I was still trying to learn and trying to find the secret magic sauce to, like, figure it out. And then at, you know, one point, I finally. I entered the golden heart.
- [27:28]
C
So let's explain what the golden Heart is prior to the Golden Heart no longer exists. But for a long time, rwa, the Romance Writers of America, had an unpublished author contest called the Golden Heart. And you would submit a selection, a first 50 or first hundred pages, and it was judged by published authors. And the winners of the Golden Heart were hopefully noticed by agents. That was the idea.
- [27:55]
D
Well, and this was especially important back before people could self publish on Amazon. So it was really an avenue for, I don't know, like that. That sense of, like, yes, this is someone we. Other romance writers see the potential in these authors and you.
- [28:11]
C
And now, I mean, it was a thing where, you know, Joanna Shoup won the Golden Heart, Robin Lovett won the Golden Heart. I mean, there are people who we have talked about on Fated Mate Genie, I didn't know you won the Golden Heart, but.
- [28:24]
B
Well. And yeah, yeah. So for me, like, first, it's not the only avenue to publication. But for my book, which was so much of an oddball, you know, people didn't know what to do with it, I entered the Golden Heart. I had been entering a gazillion contests up to then because I wanted feedback. I was kind of a feedback junkie. I, you know, I need that feedback. Otherwise, like, again, boundaries. I don't know how to look with my own, you know, instincts and know what to do. And so I entered the Golden Heart and I finaled in the Golden Heart. And I think that was the start where people started saying, hey, maybe, you know, I'll give it a chance. I started getting requests and I started, you know, more people were taking a look. Like, I definitely noticed there was a line in the sand. As soon as the Golden Heart nominations came out, all of a sudden people started paying attention. And it. It was just this huge boost. And I think I calculated at some point, but from the Golden Heart nominations to my publication, it was a matter or my first contract. It was a matter of months. So it was. It was that. It was that thing of, like, you're slogging along for, like, year two years, three years. It was three years before, you know, I had started the next book already, you know, the Dragon and the Pearl. And then the Goldenheart nominations came in, and then everyone was requesting. The editors who were judging the Golden Heart were requesting an agent. You know, agents started asking to see things. I got my agent shortly after the Golden Heart nomination, before the Golden Heart ceremony, and it ended up winning the Golden Heart. I think if it was just nominated, that would have been enough, right? But it ended up winning. And at that Point. The weekend of the win, right? The weekend of the conference, when the wins were announced that weekend, everybody had rejected me. Like, all the editors, all the houses who had requested were like, no, just can't. At least they tried. My agent, she told me, she was like, I'm going to send it to all these houses. I'm going to send it to Avon. Avon says they don't even publish what you write, because Avon's. I want to say something about this right now with the diversity push, everyone's updated their guidelines. And I say, even if it's lip service, it's important because before the words said no, Avon was specifically England. After, you know, a certain period, right, The Regency period or. Yeah, 19th century England or 19th century Europe. I think it was even specifically England for Avon because everyone wanted to. Wanted, you know, Avon. But she was like, they say they're going to publish this, but you know, they've got it. They're going to make an exception someday, and you should be that exception. Like, that was what my agent, Gail Fortune, that. That was what she was like. She believed it. You know, she believed in me more than I believed in me at that point. But everyone. Everyone had said no, just not gonna. You know, they just couldn't do it. They couldn't do it. So I was feeling kind of low, but on the drive, like, I got out of the airplane and I got a call and. And Harlequin was interested. Mills and Boone. Specifically Harlequin. Mills and Boone was interested. And, you know, that's what we went with because everyone else had said no. And I never thought. I just really never thought. She never thought either. They actually picked it up from the Golden Heart contest. She didn't submit to Harlequin because we didn't think that this was going to fit a category romance at all length. It was a little long length or subject matter.
- [32:06]
C
I mean, it is interesting because when you bring up Harlequin, Harlequin, for all that we talk about the categories being so rigid and having such rigid rules. Often it is in the historicals. It's the place where these more unusual or unique historicals.
- [32:21]
B
And I didn't know that until. I didn't know that until, you know, I started working with Mills and Boone and, you know, and Harlequin has such a machine that I think they could. They could afford to, you know, publish two Regency romances, one Scottish and one one Chinese romance, you know, that month. And they, you know, the cycle of every month, you know, so they actually had the ability to be a Little bit, you know, take a risk. And they did. And kind of interesting is I didn't realize that then the editor who did acquire me, I was her first book. So she might have also been.
- [32:52]
D
Oh wow.
- [32:53]
B
Young and green and new and Anna Boatman Hungry. Yeah, hungry. And maybe she also, maybe also didn't need rules.
- [33:03]
D
Right.
- [33:03]
B
Maybe it needed a bunch of people who were just like, you know what, let's do it. I don't know any better. Let's just go for it.
- [33:11]
C
You know, one of the things that we talk about and we've heard it over and over and over again on Faded Mates is that there is so much luck in it. You know, it's hard work and it's having a good book and it's keeping at at it and not giving up. But it's also falling into the lap of the right person. Which is tough to wrap your head around I think, when you have the other stuff.
- [33:38]
B
Yeah. And like I said, I think Gail being attracted to that book, she was an editor with Berkeley and she actually loved Chinese history. Like who knew, you know, kind of thing. Yeah, it was just. It just kind of hit the right people along the way to make it. And you know, looking back, you're like, yeah, it could have missed at any point, but it just got lucky and happened to hit the right, you know, buttons with the right people.
- [34:11]
C
So is there something about butterfly stories like that book that you can pull through all of your. Because now of course you, you write beyond romance. You write other all, you know in other genres you've been around for a decade, which feels like 50 years in romance. Are you able to pinpoint the thing about a Jeannie Lind book? What is a Jeannie Lin book? What does it bring to the reader?
- [34:42]
B
I'd like to hear from readers about this, but I have a feeling in my head what, what pulls through. And there's. I'm pausing for a bit because there's sort of like this, this kind of double edged sword. I think I really get deep into kind of the characters head. Right. And I know that's not something readers are like. I read this book because it's deep in the character's head. That's not why readers read a book. They can like feel it and sense it, but that's not what they're saying. Right, right. So I know that there are trademarks that readers recognize. But for me, I really kind of dig into the whys, probably the same way I dig into my own head. Very like self reflective of the characters, why they do things and, and such. So it kind of, I like to think goes into unexpected ways with the characters. Right. So I think that's one of, one of the things that the characters will take unexpected twists. And I think that the reason why I say it's a double edged sword is I think there are some recognized ways, recognized beloved heroes. You know, my heroes are not the standard hero because I think, I think the standard Alpha hero has some cultural issues in Eastern or Chinese romance. And actually I've read papers about this, you know, where at one point the scholars, you know, the scholars who are like, like physically leaner, not like the big burly bearded characters, they were considered more romantic figures. And it was because of just the threat, the physical threat of these big burly characters. Invaders, conquerors, you know, things like that. So it was like, oh, these big warriors were kind of identified with like the conquering forces. And these scholars were considered like the native forces of Han culture. This. Okay, so what makes a Jeannie Lin book is probably way more research than ever gets on the page. I guess for me, for me, a lot of this in depth research that I try to weave in. But I think what makes a Jeanne Lin book for readers is, you know, the settings and then the very kind of slow burn. Emotional.
- [36:57]
D
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I think I've said like no one writes kissing like you do like, right? Like where you are just really like, it's like, oh, it's so lush. Right. And you just really feel like the way that the characters are experiencing this, it's so tactile, but it's like so emotional. And so. Yeah, the idea that like we're so deep in their heads is so like, that feels so exactly right to me. Yeah.
- [37:25]
B
And I mean, my inspiration was epic Chinese dramas, C dramas. And if you look, you know, the, if you've seen Shang Chi, which is not an episode, it lends a lot from that Shang Chi, you know, Tony Leung in there and people talk about his eyes and he just has that like, that look. You know, he is my. I've actually based heroes off of his characters that look, you know, when you're in a Chinese drama, those extreme close ups and those little nuances and those like, looks and the slight, the slight touches are such a big deal because in that genre you can't just outright like, you know, physical affection and things like that. Especially in historical. It's something that there's these boundaries. And that's why I like historical romances, because there's these boundaries. You have to like, show attraction in interesting ways, you know, Everybody loves the Pride and Prejudice, you know. The hand, right?
- [38:24]
D
Oh, yeah, right.
- [38:25]
B
He lets go of her hand and you see the close up of him. Like, kind of the touch is still. The touch is still there in his fingers, even though her hand is no longer a lot of that in. In Chinese drama. And I try to recreate that in my books. And I try to recreate the look, that lush look of Chinese dramas and that sort of emotional tension of like, I want to, but I can't.
- [38:50]
D
Oh, yeah, that's great.
- [38:51]
B
I mean.
- [38:51]
D
Yeah. Okay. Can I ask a question? Because I'm really. I'm also a teacher. Did writing change your teaching? That's a good question.
- [39:07]
B
I think it's all one cycle of teaching and learning for me. And that includes in my professional life, you know, and regardless of whether I was teaching or whether I was, you know, developing, I'm also. So I kind of. I seem to, through my life, switch between teaching and then programming and then going back to teaching. Right now I'm in both. I'm actually teaching computer programming. It's always a cycle of learning and such. And I think that writing. I fell into that with writing, too. It's just a constant cycle of learning. And then I present craft writing, craft workshops and such. At the same time, I'm taking classes and learning. So I think that's how it fed in. Is it really the introspection? I think as a writer, you become even more introspective and reflective of how your books are coming out, what you're putting into your books. And it's also an act of. I think teaching is also a very introspective art. And you beat yourself up the same way, and you find your ways to lift up in the same way. And so it did. You know, I specifically started writing because I needed some sort of net. I needed something to save me from myself, you know, when I was just getting so absorbed in the teaching that I was hurting myself. And of course, no use to any of my colleagues or my students if I was in that state. So in that way, that's why I wanted to say it was the whole cycle of introspection and. And everything, I think, that affected the teaching. I don't know if it. And I think in a Zen sort of way, that has to affect the way you actually present or the way you actually treat people. And I can't separate it out, but I would say, okay, the short answer is yes.
- [41:03]
D
I did a lot of research about something called pedagogical. Content knowledge, which is basically like content knowledge is like, I mean everybody knows how to like divide, like do long division, right? Pedagogy is how you teach it. But like what people don't understand about teaching is like everything you do becomes filtered through like your teaching brain. And like everything I see all day, I'm like, could I use this in the classroom? Could I use this in the classroom? And so when you were talking earlier about like everything became about like the classroom. It seems that like it's so permeable. I don't think people understand that, like it, it, that cycle of teaching and learning that you're describing is so real, right? Even if it's romance novels, like it doesn't matter what you're doing in the classroom, it still becomes a big part of like how do I learn, how do I teach, right?
- [41:51]
B
And I actually feel that the, the act of teaching, like basically after teaching high school, after teaching high school and Watts, I felt like I feared nothing. Like, I felt like if, if you want to reject me, that's not the
- [42:03]
D
worst thing I can do anything, right?
- [42:07]
B
Like that's just like 25, 16 year olds, barely a, you know, barely a flesh wound. I felt like I had no fear.
- [42:19]
C
This episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Chirp. The best audio discounts.
- [42:24]
D
If you are an audiobook listener, and I know a lot of you are, and I am, I really cannot recommend Chirp enough. They have amazing feature deals on audiobooks, sometimes up to 95% audience off of list price. So for example, right now you can check out the Madness of Lord Ian McKenzie by Jennifer Ashley, A romance we recommended back in season one for only $2.
- [42:49]
C
And Jenny McQuiston's what Happened in Scotland. If you were intrigued by it last week on the Waking Up Married episode, you can get it now at Chirp for 2 99.
- [42:59]
D
And the best part about it is that you do not need a subscription. You can just buy a book book when you like the price.
- [43:07]
C
To get your first Chirp audiobook, head to chirp.fatedmates.net where you'll find all of the romance books on Chirp right there ready to get into your ear holes.
- [43:21]
D
You can also visit our site for any deals we see that are books that we have talked about on previous episodes or that Sarah and I have really loved.
- [43:30]
C
So again, if you're using a smart podcast app, you can click the link right now on your app and that'll take you directly to chirp.fatedmates.net so you can get Started listening. And other than that, you can find this information and information on all of our sponsors in show notes. Thanks to Chirp for sponsoring the show. I'm really interested in this. When you talk about writing, coming to writing, you talk about it so personally that, I mean, obviously it's personal for all of us, but in your case, you really were using writing as a safe space. And I think there's something there that you were writing romance for yourself in this safe space and a genre that is coded for joy and happiness and comfort at the end of it. So I wonder if you could talk a little bit about
- [44:22]
B
how.
- [44:23]
C
So that's the personal piece.
- [44:24]
D
But
- [44:26]
C
do you ever think about your writing? And maybe not. But do you think about your writing ever in terms of what you're intending to do for the reader? Some of the people we've talked to have said, oh, I never think about the reader when I'm writing. What's the relationship with readers in your mind when you're writing?
- [44:43]
B
I definitely think about the reader. It's a conversation of which I only hear one half of it, but I definitely think. And not any specific readers, of course. But yeah, there is someone I'm talking to. My sister brought, you know, she, we. My sister and I discussed writing all the time as well. You know, the ideal reader kind of thing. You know, I am talking to sort of my ideal reader and they talk back and. And they've shaped me.
- [45:12]
C
And who is that? What, what does that reader look like?
- [45:15]
B
It's a. I guess a nebulous concept. And I will, I will say this. I don't do it anymore just because of time. And now I have enough reviews that I can't have read everyone anymore. But I read it. I read everyone, every single review. Or I used to.
- [45:27]
C
Very brave.
- [45:28]
B
Well, again, like I said, I was teaching chemistry in a low performing district and I was being told to F off by students that I loved by. Like I've been told to F off by people that I love today. There's nothing that agent can tell me. There's nothing that reader can tell me that's gonna hurt worse.
- [45:51]
C
Thickest.
- [45:52]
B
Yeah. Plus a little bit of a stereotype, but, you know, I had an Asian tiger mom, so, I mean, you needed
- [46:00]
D
to know what everybody was saying.
- [46:01]
B
That's fine. Yeah. You can't touch me. I mean, come on. You just don't like my book.
- [46:08]
D
So did you hear though, personally from readers that they were moved by your books? I mean, I assume, I mean. Or was it mostly just through, like, you Know, kind of the filter of blogs or Goodreads or whatever.
- [46:21]
B
I hear personally too. I hear personally too. And I really like how some of the reviews of my books are very, very geeky academic, which is what I like. I like that. And so I hear those too. I read it and it becomes all put into this ball of, you know, the ideal reader is this nebulous ball of all of the collections I've put together of what people have said, reacted, my own reactions too. Like, there's the reader, you know, there's the reader, half of your brain that read your book and there's the reader, the writer half of your brain that wrote your book. Right. And all of that is kind of a nebulous concept and I can't exactly identify it, but I do kind of write something and be like, oh, this is pushing the boundaries. You know, my ideal reader has not seen this before or has seen this before or how, you know, how this is the next step and where I want to take them and myself and things like that. So I love that it is conversation.
- [47:21]
C
I love that idea. One of the things I like the most when I'm writing is that moment where you think to yourself, like, oh, I'm doing something new. This is something that I can feel it stretching in my brain. And I know readers will also be curious about where I'm going. So it's always nice to hear that, that other writers are also kind of thinking about it that way, how you don't overwrite. Sometimes you like, fuss at the ideal reader. How do you challenge them?
- [47:50]
B
And so it keeps you from just talking to yourself and being too self indulgent. But at the same time, it's a guess because then you'll release the book and then you'll get feedback. You're like, I was wrong about that one.
- [48:04]
C
That was a misstep.
- [48:07]
B
That didn't work well.
- [48:08]
D
Yeah, it's so interesting. And I think in genre, especially in genre fiction, right? Like, because the boundaries seem so. I mean, I'm really curious about, like, how romance changes over time because of course I have like my very strong opinions about how things should be right now. And then you go back 10 years or 20 years and think, oh no, things are always changing. But, you know, we're just kind of where we are now. So is this something where, you know, when you look back on, I mean, you've talked a little bit about how publishing maybe has at least stated that they're more open to different kinds of stories. But like, as a romance reader and Writer, do you think that romance has changed or can you speculate about where you think we're going?
- [48:52]
B
Oh, romance is probably the fastest to change. It's the most reactive, I think, of all the genres. One, because we write so fast, we as a collective, I myself do not write. Write that fast, but we write so fast, so we have the ability. That's not, you know, people say, well, people will speak negatively about writing to market, but it's not so cut and dry. It's a conversation. Like a romance as a genre is more of a conversation because it moves so fast and so fluidly and so many people do it. It's hard to put your finger on it because it's, you know, again, that giant nibbless ball. Of all the different people who write, you know, there are people who are writing throwbacks. Like, you know, when you complain and they're like, oh, romance is in the 80s. People don't write like that anymore. No, there are people still writing that and there are people still reading that and people still writing it well and reading it well, you know, and things like that. But, okay, so try to focus myself in. How has it changed? I would just say for. I'm gonna try to narrow the conversation. When Butterfly Swords was published, it felt so different to a lot of people and so much so that people who were writing things that were not at all close to Butterfly Swords gravitated toward it because they just said, this just looks different. This means there was a ball of different. All the different books are not alike. But still, there was just. There seemed to be this line of like, oh, this is what's accepted and your book is different. And so people are like, now you've opened the door to different books. I'm like, how? It's like, right? It's like this one little small example. There's not like this, but it really was othered, I guess, for better or for worse. It was like this idea of, like, accepted and othered. And I was other. I think that there are still books that are other, but I think it's open so much more. And definitely, you know, self publishing, indie publishing has a big part to do in that and writing directly to the readers, you know, and not kind of going through the filters as much and just the wide, like opening the fire hose, like, oh, you have this fire hose now. Before, romance was already varied. That's why I always felt. I'm like, if any place is going to accept me, it's going to be romance. I always thought that starting in because and the criticisms about romance being narrow or exclusive, they are not incorrect either. Both things can be true. That romance in 2010, I felt was going to be accepting and inclusive in some ways. And the community was definitely accepting because I felt folded in by the community. And not. Not all authors of color have felt that way. So I don't want to discount their experiences either. But I felt, you know, welcomed in many ways, my book eventually, even though it was like, oh, you are. You are a little, you know, our little diversity poster girl. But it was still accepted in some ways, but it was still othered. I think now a lot more variety. I love. I mean, sometimes it's like, you know, people say that you wrote the book that you wanted to read kind of thing. It's like, yeah, but now there are books that I do want to read, but that people are writing. And so I want to read those in, you know, in romances with characters of color, for sure. Still not a lot, right? The diversity report that the ripped bodice comes out with shows you at least what's being published traditionally, especially here in historical. Yeah, tiny. Tiny. But still, when it was one or two or three people writing historical churches of color, and now there's, you know, 20. That's like a huge increase. You know, it's still not a lot, but it's a huge increase. So definitely a lot more variety and I think a lot more discussion. I think there were times before when we'd have a discussion and people would be like, oh, you shouldn't criticize, you know, or things like that. Like, you would kind of hear this because it was a fragile space where we were getting criticized by so many other genres. You're like, let's not infight. And, you know, now it's like, yes, some infighting is actually healthy.
- [53:09]
C
You.
- [53:10]
B
You know, the gag rules are off and things like that. So. And then a lot less limitations. Like, oh, my gosh, in 2010, people were saying things like, you know, a lot of things baseball romances wouldn't sell. Like, you know, not to minimize the. The fact that characters of color. That's a big. That's a much different issue. People saying characters of color wouldn't sell then, like, baseball wouldn't sell. But still, there were a lot more limits in those ways, too, because shelf space was limited and things like that. But, you know, anyways, that's kind of a rambly answer.
- [53:40]
D
No, that's.
- [53:41]
C
It's.
- [53:41]
D
I think it's interesting because one of the things I think I've come to believe is that, like. Okay, I'm gonna explain my. Like, romance is a volcano metaphor because I think what it is is, like, under the surface, right? Like a big, like, actual volcano that looks like Mount St. Helens or whatever, right? And then, like, a path opens up, like. Right.
- [54:02]
C
A lava flow.
- [54:03]
D
And then everyone's like, oh, look, here's the path for us. So, like. And the people who can blaze those trails, like, literally, that's why you're here. But, I mean, it's like, showing readers and other writers both that there was some kind of way forward, right? It's not just, like, one. And, yeah, sure, there's still one big mass moving down the mountain that's, like, you know, regencies or whatever, but that there's lots. And that readers. I think one of the things I appreciate is I think so many readers are like, I love this author, and now I will write anything she writes. And so there's, like, a real commitment, I think, in romance readers to our favorite authors, too. I don't know.
- [54:45]
C
We've talked about this on the podcast, too, but 2010 is a really interesting year for me. You know, Jen and I have spent a lot of time over fated mates of kind of talking about, oh, where are the. Where are the marker years for the genre? And, you know, it's all kind of. I mean, who knows? We're basically making it up as we go. But 2010 is really interesting to me because I started writing romance in 2010 too. We. And the. I always say, you know, it felt like the. In some ways, like there was a door slamming shut behind because, you know, my first shot, my first contract didn't have ebooks in it, which feels ancient, right? But I think that that time period, I mean, what Butterfly swords did in 2010 was open a path in the volcano to sort of, you know, combine all of our stories, you know, in a way that really felt like traditional publishing was massively shifting. It had to be shifting to keep up. And. And there was. 2010 really marks an end, in a lot of ways, in my mind, to what had been happening in traditional publishing, romance before. Because it was right as indie publishing was starting. It was sort of. We were just on the cusp of what was about to become like, this massive world. And somehow those of us who were new in 2010 were all feeling that seismic shift, and you were doing it in a really important way.
- [56:16]
B
Well, that's actually an excellent point, because at that point, ebooks were. There was E publishers, right? Plenty of them who have now. Digital publishers who have now Kind of gone by the wayside. But that was also their upswing. My prequel novella, the Taming of Meilin, which was attached to Butterfly Swords, that was. That came out an ebook. And that was when people were playing with shorter length historical fiction and ebooks. A bunch of readers were like, I've never read an ebook before, but I want to read your book. How do I get it? Like, I remember. I remember, like on my blog, like, posting instructions on how do you buy an ebook? How do you read. Yes, how do you read the Taming of Meilin? Here are your offerings. Like, I remember doing that. Thank you for that reminder.
- [57:06]
C
I mean, doesn't it make it ancient? You're welcome.
- [57:10]
B
Twitter, just Twitter. Twitter was coming out like. Like at 2010 was when people were just starting to try to figure out Twitter and there weren't too many, you know, entities on there and it wasn't as cluttered and. And, you know, I think what happened with Butterfly Swords is because Butterfly Swords was coming out and Twitter was there, like, it kind of got swept up in a lot of just Goodreads. Oh, my gosh, you're bringing back all these memories. Goodreads came out at that time.
- [57:38]
C
Goodreads wasn't owned by Amazon. Like, it was just its own little
- [57:41]
B
like, oh, this side of. This side of books is starting up. It's called Goodreads. Because I remember at the time because Butterflies Swords was coming out at the time because people were talking about it. It got swept up into a lot of these early proto algorithm type things. You know, I got some sort of feature in Goodreads that I didn't even know about. And I know Harlequin didn't buy because. Because no one knew about the stuff. Right, Right.
- [58:07]
C
No one was paying money to websites. Why would you just throw your money away?
- [58:11]
B
And so people, people are like, how did you get that in Goodreads? You know, And I was like, I don't have the faintest idea.
- [58:18]
C
You know, that was also the age of, like, there were two Romans, blogs, and that was it. And if you got reviewed by either of them, you could sell books. I mean, it just was a totally different world.
- [58:29]
B
A different world. Different world. But yeah, on the cusp of change. And we could feel it within what, within the year, Borders would go away. Right. Within the next year, you know, so. So it was like. Right, yeah, you're right. If you were publishing at the time, you were like.
- [58:44]
D
Right.
- [58:45]
B
You were standing on the edge of the, you know, the fault, the precipice.
- [58:49]
D
Yeah.
- [58:50]
B
And you Sort of felt like split.
- [58:52]
C
What is happening? And the people.
- [58:53]
D
It was a volcano, everybody.
- [58:55]
B
Oh yeah, volcano. Sorry, volcano.
- [58:58]
C
The people who were publishing before us for many years were like, what is even happening? This is totally new and I'm not gonna survive. And the people who were coming in right after were saying, you know, oh, all of that stuff is, you know, old news. And it's really a fascinating. It was a fascinating time. But you're right, you've just named a bunch of things I had forgotten about.
- [59:20]
D
One of the questions and you've already mentioned quite a. Quite a few of this. But one of the questions we also are just really curious about is,
- [59:29]
B
you
- [59:29]
D
know, you've already mentioned some folks but like who are there other lesser known people, like names people wouldn't know? Editors, designers, publishers, other authors that really like you think have left a mark. Mark on the genre that you don't think are celebrated as often.
- [59:47]
B
This is tough because everyone I name is way more well known than me, I guess, I think. But I think the first person who comes to mind is Eden Bradley, who is. She has a couple of pen names, but Eden Bradley and she writes erotic romance and she was writing erotic romance sort of, you know, when that was making, you know, was coming up. And she also was one of the co moderators or you know, co foundational members, not founders of a. Of a group called Roman Stevens. Sure.
- [60:25]
D
See I.
- [60:26]
B
Which was where. Which was where. And they're still around but they've gone through, you know, ebbs and flows as well. But that's where I sort of create. Where I found my first online writing community.
- [60:35]
D
Was writing romance, right?
- [60:37]
B
No, it was a forum. It was a forum. They had a blog, but it was a forum where we would go and ask for advice. And there was a lot of e. E Book. E Publishing, you know, at a time when E publishing was kind of like considered the lower, you know, the lower tier. Everyone's trying to get a publishing, you know, a traditional contract and. And so they were really there leading kind of like through the changes where a lot of discussion was happening. And so it's a private forum but you know, you can, you can join it. It wasn't so restrictive, but Eden was there. But I think as an author also for me she really exemplified, you know, someone who was writing her own thing, trying to move with the changes. I actually got my call when I was in Eden's room and at RWA when. When I got the call because she was leading us through a yoga session. But I.
- [61:27]
C
We should explain what that means? What does it mean? Get the call.
- [61:30]
B
Oh, the call. Okay. So the call is when, you know, we had been in discussions and different people were rejecting. But the call is when you finally get the call from an editor at a public or an acquisitions person, I guess an editor at a publishing house saying, we would like to publish your book. So it was the moment, you know, and they called from England, they called from the UK to say that, that we want to publish Butterfly Swords. And I was waiting, you know, we, I had a feeling, you know, we had already said it's going to happen, but this was when they actually called and said, welcome to Harlequin Mills and Boone. And you know, so many things are going to happen today and you know, and all this and you'll get a contract later. And. But it was when I spoke to, it was Linda, Linda Fildue at the time and just welcoming me to the publishing world. But I was waiting. I was in a room at RWA doing yoga with Eden. But I was so other people, everybody
- [62:34]
C
knows where they were. No one ever forgets where they were.
- [62:36]
B
Exactly, exactly. They like marched me downstairs to get my first time sale ribbon. It was a moment, but I was with. But that's what I was saying. It was always been about a community for me. And so Eden kind of exemplifies. She was a person who, who is a fabulous author. I love her books. It's like her books unfold like a dream. Her voice is so amazing.
- [62:58]
C
Do you have a recommendation for our listeners? To start with Eden, I think it
- [63:04]
B
was called the Dark Garden. It was her first book. And when I read it, I kind of was just. I was not an erotic romance reader at that time. And I just like was swept away with it. And I would read like, it's one. She has one of those voices where I would read her, you know, I would read the phone book kind of thing if she wrote it. And but on top of that, the community building that she does, and then she's just so caring. And then on top of that, so erotic romance has gone up and down, but, you know, so she's kind of weathered a lot of different storms. You know, all of a sudden with 50 Shades, she kind of shot up again because her book was, you know, one of these early books in erotic romance. But she just shows me how to handle things with grace. And so she's really been an influence on top of being a fabulous author. And I remember I was at one of her signings before I was published and she. It was a book publisher signing, and she was talking, interacting with readers, and she just was recommending other books. Like, she wasn't talking about her books. She was like, oh, over there. Have you read her books? They're fabulous. And she was just so giving and gracious, and I was like, I want to be like Eden when I grow up. So I think, you know, she. She's done a lot for other authors and done a lot for erotic romance, done a lot for E publishing that I think it's just not recognized because she just. It's just naturally, you know, kind of, you know, and. And done a lot for, I think, you know, body positivity, sex positivity. Just. There's a lot so much that in her now I feel embarrassed because now Eden's like, oh, you never told me these things.
- [64:41]
C
Well, now, you know what? You've done it the best possible way.
- [64:44]
B
It is the best possible way.
- [64:46]
D
I mean, I think it is hard. I think we're so used to, like, quietly just, like, knowing the people that influenced us. But I love hearing. I love hearing. When we've asked people this question, it has always been, I think, just so, like, really rewarding to hear about. Like, there's so many close ties in so many ways in which we, like, really can admire the authors who have done this work before us. So.
- [65:08]
C
And one of the things that we keep coming back to this season is that nobody, you know, or largely the names of these people are not spoken because we don't get as much public coverage as lots of other genres.
- [65:23]
D
So.
- [65:24]
B
And then, you know, along the same lines, I think Kate Pierce has been similar for. For me, and like I said, these authors are way bigger, way more well known than I am, but more should be said about them.
- [65:40]
C
My question at this point is, let's go back to your books because we've talked so much about Butterfly Swords, but let's talk about sort of the larger Jeannie Lynn collection. Can you talk a little bit about the. The shifts that you made over your career, the choices to move? You really ride the genre lines very fluidly. So can you talk about that a little?
- [66:11]
B
Butterfly Swords, I feel, was very tropey, right? I think that's one of the reasons it was picked up. There was something very familiar about it and different. But the same is what everyone always said, right. Was the selling point. But after Butterfly Swords and I started working with Mills and Boone, I think I really leaned into the Chinese culture and history side a lot more. And so my book started veering, you know, even from the second book that I published, the Dragon of the Pearl, and the third, My Fairy Concubine, they start going into much more of a shift into, you know, Chinese cultural romances. And then I think the biggest change was at the time when my editor, I think I've said her name before, Anna Bodman. She was just so intensely. She was so supportive.
- [67:01]
C
She's my editor at PI Kiss, too.
- [67:04]
B
Oh, is she awesome?
- [67:07]
C
I mean, we'll take this out now. We could just say she's the best.
- [67:11]
B
Okay, So I mean, she. She almost. I mean, she taught me how to write. Right. In a way, she taught me how to write with an editor because we grew up together. She was.
- [67:20]
C
You know, I don't think I ever realized that you were edited by. Maybe we won't take this out, but I don't think I ever realized that you were edited by the English, by England.
- [67:29]
B
Oh.
- [67:29]
C
Instead of the United States.
- [67:32]
B
It's actually great working with them because their five page revision letters are so polite.
- [67:41]
D
Oh, that's funny.
- [67:44]
B
But so Anna, Anna Boatman, when she also. As your editor moves up, this is one of the things people don't realize, right. As your editor moves up through the ranks in the publishing house, that could affect you. And so when she moved into single title, she was like, I know who would write great single title books, like Jeanne Lin. And that was offered to me without. We did not submit for that. That was just given to me. It kind of fell in my lap.
- [68:12]
D
And so is that the Gunpowder Chronicles then?
- [68:15]
B
No, this was Lotus palace series.
- [68:17]
D
Oh, the Lotus palace series. Okay.
- [68:18]
B
Yeah. It's like I always had in my mind, like, yes, I would like to write single title because I was already writing longer length. And that's what I always thought we would. You know, my agent was like, I always thought we would be single title authors. Again, for the listening audience, the category is similar to categories. They usually fit certain guidelines. They're usually shorter. They were releasing every month, things like that. Single titles stay on the shelf a little longer. They're usually longer in length. And so when that happened, it was the opportunity to write a deeper story, more in depth. Not that I thought my stories were super shallow or anything, but just to go a little deeper into the things I wanted to do and hit on topics that I hadn't before. You know, in the Lotus palace series, there's the sex trade, there's gambling addiction, which is actually something that's prevalent in my family and in Vietnamese culture and things like that. And so it sort of gave me an opportunity to play around a little bit more with the single titles. And I think that was kind of the big. The first big shift I felt was. Was writing the Lotus palace series. The Gunpowder Chronicles was also. At the same time, another shift is someone. Steampunk is one of those things where everyone was hoping it would be big, thought it would be big. The fans really like it, but it sort of has always been. It's one of those things that I think doesn't work if it's popular. Unfortunately, you kind of. Geek culture likes fringe culture as well, and it is really popular, but not popular in, you know. Yeah, in a mainstream way. But at some point, I. I really liked kind of the geekiness of steampunk and cosplay. And someone suggested, why don't you write steampunk? And I was like, no, I don't think that way. I'm like, you know. But the more I researched it, it was like, hey, it's not that far of a leap. And it kind of plays into the science geekiness, history. History geekiness that I have. I was like, let's do it, you know, And. And again, I knew no better. I didn't know any better. And so that was at the same time I was branching out to Lois Palace, I also started branching out into steampunk fantasy. And I think each of them, they don't feel too far away from where I started, but they're just different ways to explore aspects of psychology and culture and history in different ways.
- [70:50]
C
So which of your books do you hear about the most from readers?
- [70:55]
B
I'd probably say it's a hard call. Which. It's good that it's a hard call, that it's not a definite answer.
- [71:03]
C
Some people. I mean, this question is really fascinating to me because, you know, some people instantly, there's, like, the book that they
- [71:10]
B
hear about, I think, well, Butterfly Swords still. Which is amazing to me. I mean, it's amazing. It's a book that was literally on the shelves for a month in bookstores at a time when ebooks were not huge, you know, and things like that. And it's never had a book, bub. It's never, you know, it's never really had a breakthrough other than it being Butterfly Swords. And people didn't write books like that then, or. No, no, they were. Correction, they were writing books like that. Traditional publishers weren't publishing romances like that then. And so Butterfly Swords for sure. But My Fair Concubine, surprisingly, is a sleeper that gets mentioned a lot. Like when people say the books that they reread. Yeah, it's My Fair Concubine. And then the Lotus palace gets, gets mentioned as well. So I would say those three are the ones I hear from readers most often or I see mentions. Yes, I Google stalk myself occasionally. We all do.
- [72:07]
C
But we've decided that you have thick skin.
- [72:11]
D
You like the war, the battle.
- [72:14]
B
I like the pain. It feels like love to me. Yeah, I always say that I'm like Asian. You know, Asians don't call it tough love, we just call it love. That's what love is.
- [72:28]
D
Perfect. Is there a book of yours that you are most proud of or that you, that we sort of frame it as like, that you hope would outlive you?
- [72:38]
B
Oh, I, you know, at this point I would still have to say butterfly swords. And the reason why is this. It's taken a long journey, I think, for me to kind of come back to the, to the acceptance of butterfly swords. A long time. Every time someone said like, oh, I'm reading butterfly swords and it was like five years after it was written, it was seven years after it was written, I always, I would cringe. I'm like, oh, it's so bad. Don't start with that one, you know. But I wouldn't say anything. Oh, great, I'm glad. Please enjoy. You know, please enjoy.
- [73:15]
D
I'll just be over here in the corner.
- [73:17]
C
Well, and also, there's also that feeling of like, I've done a lot more than that.
- [73:21]
B
Yes. Better writer now.
- [73:23]
C
Did I peek with number one?
- [73:26]
B
I've learned so much. But you know, I'm like, I, I bite my tongue. And I realized, like readers don't know that every book they come to, it's the first. And of course it's 10 years ago. 10 years in historical romance is like, sure. So much changes.
- [73:40]
D
So much change itself, right?
- [73:42]
B
Yeah, but, but still I, I've come back to the, you know, like, like there's still things that people are finding that they like about it. So that's been reassuring. But also it was a time I was in a place then. But Jennifer Lynn Barnes has a talk about writing for your id.
- [74:00]
D
Great.
- [74:00]
C
We talked about it.
- [74:02]
D
I love it.
- [74:04]
B
I think it was the most inspirational thing for me to read. Craft wise and emotional. Likewise, because it made me accept, I'm like, there are things that people love and this is why. And the things that I hate about it, I don't really hate. I just feel like I'm better than that now, but I don't have to be. You know, it made me feel okay. About the things I loved that I put into the kitchen sink of a romance that I wrote.
- [74:30]
C
You know, Jen always talks about first books. The reason why first books resonate so well with readers, especially when you're like, you are where you grew up reading romance, is you pack them full of all the things that. All the buttons that were installed in you.
- [74:48]
B
But I think there's a raw. I haven't reread it in a long time. In fact, this is how crazy I am. There is a word echo on the first page of butterfly sword. And I swear for the last 10 years, I'm like, if I ever get that book back, that is the first thing I'm fixing. That's how psycho I am about.
- [75:08]
C
Can I tell you something, Jeannie? You could ask them to change it in the evening book right now. And they would.
- [75:14]
D
So.
- [75:15]
B
No, I would open up a can of worms.
- [75:17]
C
No, don't read the whole book. Just have them feel that one.
- [75:20]
B
No, but that would open up. That would open up a whole. Oh my gosh. That would just. No, no, take it back. My first words, My first words. When, you know, when, when butterfly swords arrived. Here's why I say butterfly swords. There's so much emotion as you can hear when I'm talking about it now. And I think some of that raw emotion is in the pages. And so I would say that's the book. I would, I would say it's your baby.
- [75:44]
C
It's your first baby.
- [75:46]
B
And I want people, I want people in 20 years to complain about how like tropey and stereotypical it is and how derivative. I want people to say those things because it's a 20, 20 year old book. Book. Complain about it. See how outdated it is.
- [76:06]
D
Yes. Right. Well, and we've talked about that. Like sometimes when we go back and read like an older historical, I was like, oh, this is where this originated. So if people were saying that about a butterfly swords, it would mean that.
- [76:20]
B
But you're a critical reader. People, people might just pick it up and be like, who is this old, you know, writing these serials?
- [76:27]
C
Listen, if people are still reading, reading your book 20 years after it comes out, that's a win. No matter what they're saying.
- [76:33]
D
Right?
- [76:33]
B
You know, yeah, put me on blast. And I kind of, I kind of, you know, I'm like, I haven't, there's nothing I haven't blasted about myself about that book. But the very first time I held that book in my hands, you know, I saw that UPS truck. I was waiting for it. The UPS Truck was across the street, and I'm like, it's across the street. And I'm saying this on Twitter because there was this new thing called Twitter then, so. And all, you know, readers and 12 people watching. Yeah, but my. My 12 followers were like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Is it the books? It's the books. And so the books come to the door, and I open it up and I pick it up, and my husband can attest to this. The first thing I say is, like, I have a book now. I can't fix it anymore because I had it in paper. There was no more. I couldn't fix it. So, yeah, I can't. I can't. If I. I can't open it up and ask Harlequin to fix that, because that would ruin me. I'd do nothing else.
- [77:24]
D
So we've talked about how fast changing romance is, and of the things that's been really interesting as we've done these interviews, to me is I find myself more and more grateful for ebooks because your book, that your book that was on the shelf for one month is still available to be on all of our shelves. Right?
- [77:42]
B
Yes. Yes. Love that.
- [77:44]
C
Yeah, we're lucky.
- [77:46]
B
And I have, like, a couple dusty copies in my basement for my children.
- [77:49]
D
You can put them on ebay, maybe. If you ever. Jeannie, thank you so much for being with us today. It was an amazing, amazing to hear your story.
- [78:01]
C
A really fabulous conversation. Thank you.
- [78:03]
B
Oh, this is really fun. This is great.
- [78:05]
C
Well, now I sort of. While you were talking about steampunk, I was like, I wonder if Jeannie would come back and do an interstitial on steampunk with us, because we'll put it on the list. If you're a steampunk reader, Jeannie, and you'd like to join us to talk about that, that would be really fun.
- [78:19]
B
Oh, yeah. Anytime. Anytime, Jeanne.
- [78:22]
C
Tell everybody where they can find you.
- [78:24]
B
I'm here and there on Twitter at just Jeanne Lynn. J E A N N I E L I N. And then my website is Jeanne Lynn.com and I'm. I'm, you know, like I said, I'm in and out. I don't have any policy for social media. I kind of just do it as I feel. So. So you may get me. You may get me a lot or a little. It's social media, right?
- [78:51]
D
That's how it works.
- [78:52]
C
And tell us about what's recent or what's coming.
- [78:57]
D
Well,
- [78:59]
B
I'm working on a book right now, and like every book you hope it's going to be the last one, but it's not. I'm working on the sequel, the next book in the Lotus palace series right now, and it's. It's the follow up to the Hidden Moon, which came out last year. And I'm also. I actually started an MFA program. And so I'm working on a historical that's set in Vietnam. And that's a scary one for me just because, first of all, whole new historical era and one that's not as well documented because it's actually ancient. It's A.D. 40 A.D. oh, wow. And said it's the story of. Of the Chung sisters, who were the revolutionary sisters of Vietnam who fought for independence against Han China. And they actually won. So they're sort of like the Vietnamese version of William Wallace, or, you know, they actually won back their independence for a glorious three years. But, you know, it was the first time that Vietnam defeated China for independence, and it was two sisters who did it. So that's. Those are my two current projects, the sisters. One's going take a while because it's a whole new historical era. And then hopefully the next Lotus palace book will be finishing up, you know, within the year.
- [80:21]
C
But you can catch up with the Lotus palace series while you're waiting for that, and you can buy those wherever you buy your books. So, Jeannie, thank you so much for coming to Faded Mates.
- [80:33]
B
Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome.
- [80:40]
C
What a cool person. I don't think I've ever met her in real life, and now I just want to be her friend forever.
- [80:46]
D
Obviously, I would have been really lucky. I have had her on at least one, maybe two panels. You know, in our Zoom world, it's so much easier to just like, reach out to someone and be like, hey, do you want to do this thing? And she. Yeah, she's been. She's great.
- [81:04]
C
Love. I really loved. I mean, I love. I loved a lot about that conversation. One of the things I like the most is how we don't really talk about this very much, even though it is the origin story for so many writers, is this idea that you come to romance for the joy of it, for yourself to come to writing it. And when she said, you know, she had come up, right, reading her best friend mom, her best friend's mom's historicals, it made sense. I mean, you can really see the bones of that in her books.
- [81:36]
D
But the real joy of that for
- [81:38]
C
me was her saying, I was having a rough time and writing romance saved me, saved my sanity.
- [81:46]
D
In some ways I also thought it was really interesting. I think she's the first person we've talked to so far that has talked about like taking a class. Right.
- [81:57]
C
And learning the crafts.
- [81:59]
D
Right. Learning the craft. Craft and that. I think that. So, you know, there's so many different paths to writing romance that we're hearing about and you know, from fan fiction to, you know, to. And so to have someone say like, you know, I kind of went the like a more traditional route and that's what worked for me because it might inspire people who, you know, I think a lot of people probably recognize themselves in that like I like feedback and I like a teacher and I like, like this idea of someone else has done it. I don't have to learn it myself. So I was really fascinated to hear like, just like, yeah, this UCLA extension course.
- [82:35]
C
Amazing. I wish I had had a course like that. I had a very different kind of course that didn't inspire me the way that she did. I really had a false start with one. So that sounds like a good one. I also liked, you know, writer. I liked when she talked about romance being so, so fast to change. And when we really dug into that the last decade or so of romance, she really had a fascinating perspective that we haven't had before with other so far. I mean we're not done recording Trailblazer interviews, but it was really interesting to hear from somebody who has a perspective that's a shorter, a, A mid range lens. It feels like in some ways you
- [83:21]
D
and I have talked before about like 2010.
- [83:24]
C
Right.
- [83:25]
D
But to have. I don't think I'd put together Jeannie Lynn with 2010 and yet, you know, looking back, I think we are going to keep coming across like those years that just seem to be like 1995. Right.
- [83:40]
C
Like the years where, yeah, they're just transforming, transformational years.
- [83:43]
D
Right. And so I was really fascinated to have somebody kind of remind us of like just how big that change was to ebooks, but also like that social media, the blogs, like the sort of the way that all played into it as well.
- [84:01]
C
Right. It feels now, it feels like that that has all existed for as long as we've all been alive. But that those of us who started writing right on that cusp. It's really huge the amount of change that has happened. And as she was talking I actually had some other thoughts of people who we need to make sure we put on our trailblazer list because there are just every time we have one of these conversations, I think, oh, we need to make sure we get that person. So we're gonna be doing trailblazers interviews until we're 95 and then someone can come in.
- [84:37]
D
We've recorded it all already though. One of the things that I was thinking about a lot too though is. And you talked about this like sort of luck, but you know how much hard work is involved. I think I would like to say there are very few writing seems, you know, to say to yourself like, I'm gonna go ahead and sign up for 100 rejections. Unbelievable that that's like the number I can bear.
- [85:07]
C
Yeah, no, no, I would have tolerated like six and then I'm out.
- [85:12]
D
And I think that that's part of the thing too is not just to say, I mean, I, I want to be really explicit. Like all writers go through rejections. But I think it's also really clear that she was fighting a real uphill battle. She was bringing something to market that people thought they didn't want, that they explicitly would say we don't want or we're not going to publish. And so the way that the, that you know, kind of the racism embedded or you know, into the, the genre, into publishing itself works against authors certainly, but also readers who then, when her book did come to market, you know, like to have a category romance have a decade long impact. I don't, I want to talk about that because it is.
- [85:59]
C
I hadn't realized, and I said this with her, but I hadn't realized so much about Jeannie's career. Really did travel a unique path from. I mean, she mentioned the category romance being it shouldn't be a cat. It defies the rules of category, but it defies the rules of American category. And then she was picked up by British category. Her editor is British, not American. I mean these are the paths that so many of the trailblazers, I mean, we talked to Radcliffe. Her episode is out. So many of these trailblazing people tell stories about finding a path through the woods that is uncommon. Which I guess is the point of the.
- [86:53]
D
I was like, I. I believe so.
- [86:55]
C
Wait a second.
- [86:56]
D
Hit upon our thesis.
- [86:57]
C
Look what we have done.
- [86:59]
D
And you know what? That's not to say that there aren't people doing interesting work who are traveling down paths that have been created for them. But you know, I think the thing that is so interesting too is to hear how all those little things that align bring us, bring us the books that we now have.
- [87:17]
C
Yeah. And it is, it's, you know, 80% hard work and a great book and 20% just the right person picking it up at the right time.
- [87:29]
D
And also, you know, that is really interesting. I don't think readers, maybe our listeners aren't the, the Golden Heart in recent years has felt a little bit like a. I don't know, I don't understand why this thing exists.
- [87:45]
B
No.
- [87:45]
D
Right. Every writer could publish themselves.
- [87:48]
C
Yeah.
- [87:48]
D
And so to, to talk and hear a Goldenheart winner talk about the power of that contest, I thought was also really interesting.
- [87:58]
C
I agree. And I think that especially, you know, RWA is so tricky and we've talked about it before and you know, I don't want to get too deep in the weeds on RWA because. Why. But, but I think that the one. There was so much discussion when they ended the Golden Heart because it really did feel like for many of us the Golden Heart was a support system, a network. And those Golden Heart winners are all a part. One of the things we didn't talk about with Jeannie is they had their online private groups and they had their community of, of finalists who supported each other. I mean, Joanna Shoup talks so much about that. The value of those people together and those writers who are all sort of traveling the same path together. And when RWA gave. Did away with it and you know, there was argument that they did away with it because it wasn't making enough money, it was too much work for, however, for the people submitting to it because of independent publishing, people were fewer and fewer people were submitting to it. And that's all real. But there also is a value to unpublished authors being celebrated for their work. You know, yesterday I was at a play date with my daughter and I met a mom I had never met before. And you know, we got to talking and she said, oh, you're a writer? And I said, yes. I said, what do you do? She said, oh, I'm, you know, I'm a stay at home mom, but, you know, I'm trying to be a writer. I've been writing for, you know. She said she'd been writing the same thing for five years. She's like, but I try to write every, you know, every day or every couple of days. And I said, well, then you're a writer. I mean, it's, there is a value to supportive communities around unpublished authors. And there's a value to us naming writing as something valuable, as a valuable product, even if you don't get paid for it.
- [90:02]
B
It.
- [90:03]
C
So I, I really loved that. I, I mean, you know, we're. And that's as we do these interviews we're going to come up with more and more of these, like, little pockets of romance history that.
- [90:13]
D
Yeah.
- [90:13]
C
We'll try to unpack and explain.
- [90:15]
D
Right. Well, and the thing that's amazing is the more we do it, the more I realize just how many pockets there are.
- [90:21]
C
Right.
- [90:21]
D
I mean, we all have our romance reading experience, but it's also like, you know, finding these other ones. So.
- [90:28]
C
Yeah. So as you're listening, if there are ever. To that end, if there are ever things that we blow past and we don't talk about that you think are interesting, shoot us a message on Twitter or Instagram or send us an email and let us know and we'll do what we can to explain them. Ok. Jen, that was fun. I enjoyed that one. I enjoy all of them now. Me too.
- [90:49]
D
It's amazing.
- [90:50]
C
It's the best. These are the best conversations.
- [90:52]
D
They are.
- [90:54]
C
Okay. Thanks, everyone, for joining us. You can find us at fatedmates pod on Instagram, aided mates on twitter@thetamates.net to find all of these and merch and stickers and information and, you know, everything you could possibly need about us. More than you could ever want, probably.
- [91:17]
D
We're generating a lot of content.
- [91:18]
C
Content.
- [91:19]
D
That's what Sarah's trying to say.
- [91:20]
C
But we really love you all. We hope you are all reading great books this week and thanks for listening.