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Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
S07:07 The Seven Deadly Sins: Let's Fire Up Wikipedia
01:56:07
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- [00:00]
A
Jen, it's so cold here and my heat is broken.
- [00:03]
B
I don't understand why.
- [00:07]
A
First things first. The New Englander in me and the New Englanders listening are like, what do you mean, Sarah? It's only October. What is it, 23rd when this episode is out?
- [00:18]
B
It doesn't matter.
- [00:19]
A
It doesn't matter how cold you are. The heat doesn't go on until November 1st. Which is some puritanical nonsense.
- [00:27]
B
Whenever anybody says that to me, I'm always like, thank. That sounds insane, but okay.
- [00:32]
A
It's about sin. Which we'll get to today.
- [00:35]
B
We sure will, Sarah. We sure will.
- [00:39]
A
For some reason there is this like, sense of like suffering your cold temperatures in New England is a virtue. Like, it's like gonna get you straight, like past the pearly gates because. And like, no matter what you've done.
- [00:55]
B
Cause that's when we meet you there.
- [00:56]
A
You'll be like, no, but I never turn my heat on before November 1st.
- [01:00]
B
And they'll be like, pass.
- [01:02]
A
Exactly. Oh, well, in that case, who cares if you murdered puppies?
- [01:08]
B
Yeah, that doesn't matter. You were. You were not playing fast and loose with your furnace.
- [01:14]
A
New Englanders, we are a strange.
- [01:18]
B
No, I've heard people say it here. I just don't.
- [01:23]
A
It does feel real dumb in the Midwest because aren't you colder than we are? I don't understand.
- [01:28]
B
Yeah, I mean feel sure you should.
- [01:29]
A
Have a two week jump on us is all I'm saying.
- [01:32]
B
You know what, there is though? I think if you are like a renter in the city of Chicago, I think there are some laws like the.
- [01:41]
A
The landlords don't have to turn them on.
- [01:43]
B
Right, exactly. But you know, for me personally, I think if it's cold, you should turn on your heat. We had the guys come today to do the pre. Like winter.
- [02:00]
A
Very exciting banter for everyone.
- [02:02]
B
Yes. But also they're gonna come and clean out our vents. And I just think that sounds real dirty and not in a good way.
- [02:14]
A
Stuff back in there.
- [02:15]
B
You know what? I'm not gonna really have anything to do with it. My job is to just make sure that they are all clear furniture on top of them. And then they're gonna come in to suck out all the shit out of the vents. And I really think that's gonna be disgusting.
- [02:28]
A
I said to somebody not long ago that I think that if you're looking for a career plumbing H Vac, all that, don't go to college, learn to be a plumber. There are three kinds of pipe. Welcome everyone to Faded mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.
- [02:50]
B
I'm Jennifer Prokup, a romance reader and homeowner.
- [02:54]
A
And here's the truth, as many of you know, that Jen and I are both moderately obsessed with Moonstruck, the film. It installed many of our buttons.
- [03:05]
B
Yes.
- [03:06]
A
And we've done a. We've done a. Not only did we talk about it on the literal first episode of this podcast seven seasons ago, remember when I.
- [03:15]
B
Was like, have you seen Moonstruck? And you were like, what the fuck?
- [03:18]
A
Have I seen Moonstruck? Are you talking to. Of course I, Queen Moonstruck.
- [03:22]
B
We barely knew each other at the time.
- [03:24]
A
It's fine. I know now you would never ask me that.
- [03:26]
B
Would never.
- [03:27]
A
We did a very, very fun. We should do this again. Watch of Moonstruck, where we both watched it and then we did an episode about it and Eric cut in all the, like, little clips. It was so great. It was so fun for him, but it was really fun for us.
- [03:44]
B
It was his idea, everybody.
- [03:47]
A
He likes this idea, so. But the plumbers, when they were here, literally at one point, they're looking at my, I don't know, 19 year old boiler. I don't know. I don't know what an old thing is or a new thing. House is also, like, nothing makes sense. So it's 19 years old, perfectly fine, no worries. But then he's like, there is one thing. This pipe here is like. Is an iron pipe. It might not been iron, but whatever, it's an iron pipe and it should be a copper pipe. And I went, well, I've heard of that. It's one of the three types of pipe. He did not laugh. And I was like, how does a plumber in New York City not hear a moonstruck joke every freaking day? And maybe he does, and that's why it wasn't funny.
- [04:34]
B
I'm over this.
- [04:35]
A
Like, I don't understand the reference, ma'am.
- [04:37]
B
He's like, I have no idea what you're talking about.
- [04:39]
A
This man, though, also came up from my basement and was like, are you a writer? And I was like, I am. And he was like, I wondered why you had so many books by the same person downstairs.
- [04:49]
B
Burn. My goodness.
- [04:52]
A
It is me. I am the person.
- [04:54]
B
Okay. That's actually very cute. Like, what a. Like a little observant man. I'm always horrified when people come to the house.
- [05:00]
A
What I don't understand is the boilers on the other side of the. Of the basement and the books. What was he doing roaming around my.
- [05:06]
B
Somewhere you need to look at the pipes. Sarah, you know, it's funny that you mentioned our first episode because it is in fact our seven year anniversary today.
- [05:20]
A
Happy anniversary, my friend.
- [05:21]
B
Happy anniversary.
- [05:22]
A
Happy anniversary to everybody out there.
- [05:24]
B
Yes.
- [05:25]
A
Raise your hand if you've been with us from the beginning. It's not that many of you. You guys, so well done. There were like 300 people who joined us on the first week.
- [05:37]
B
I don't even know those numbers. It's best that I don't.
- [05:39]
A
I. I should. We should ask Eric. We'll put it in show notes. What? What the actual. I wonder if we can find it. But the listenership of the first episode on the first week.
- [05:48]
B
But it was like, how would anybody even know? You know, we were like on Twitter being like, hey, guess what? We have a podcast now. Okay. So here's what's funny. Is on the calendar for this this week. For months it has said the seven year itch. Like it was like a special anniversary episode that we were going to do.
- [06:08]
A
And we came up with a bunch of ideas. We should talk about what the ideas were.
- [06:11]
B
Right. We should. Well, one was just like a fun. One was like, talk about like kind of like the best book from each year. Yeah.
- [06:21]
A
One book every season. You know what Favorite book of each season. But then we thought like, well, those will be books.
- [06:27]
B
What are you talking about? All those times?
- [06:28]
A
And then Eric came up with some like, very complicated idea where like people could like reach out, send an email and say. And like ask each of us, like basically like a test. What does. So you would say a question for me would be like a question for. For me would be one time Jen went to this place and did this thing. You know, what place was it? And it was like, it would like basically test our individual knowledge of each other of the episodes versus yours.
- [07:03]
B
Yeah.
- [07:04]
A
But then we were like, you will definitely know more than we. And also that seemed like a lot of work. And Eric was like, they could email me. And I was like, I feel like this is just.
- [07:13]
B
Yeah, right. We're asking for trouble. Yeah, that would have been really fun.
- [07:17]
A
You can email eric ericatedmates.net and sure.
- [07:22]
B
And he can just like shoot them to us and we'll. We'll yap about him. Yeah, I actually worry about this a lot because I'm always like, have I said this on the podcast or just in conversation?
- [07:32]
A
Just like, yes, you probably have said it on the podcast.
- [07:35]
B
Sorry, everybody you thank God for. You're still listening.
- [07:37]
A
But here's the point. Only 300 people were with us for that first episode.
- [07:41]
B
So it doesn't matter.
- [07:42]
A
We could just start over.
- [07:44]
B
Yeah. Crustly Cole's Immortals After Dark. And then. Then here's the idea that we are actually going to be doing today, which I think is really fun because I was like, what else? You know, like, what else is like seven, right? The seven year itch. Like, and so we can.
- [08:02]
A
Well, we talked about, like, oh, what about, like, the best? Because Jen has talked a lot about, like, what are the best books? She's really interested in, like, the. The lens backward. Like, what are the best books of that year that we started. But I think this is a better. And then Jen one day said, what.
- [08:19]
B
If we did the seven deadly Sins?
- [08:22]
A
And I instantly was like, oh, yes. Sarah came online.
- [08:26]
B
Yeah, you did. You were like, oh, yeah. I want.
- [08:28]
A
Heroes are sinful.
- [08:29]
B
Yeah, right.
- [08:30]
A
Always.
- [08:31]
B
I know.
- [08:31]
A
And I was like, yes, absolutely. That'll be super easy.
- [08:34]
B
And then, you guys, it was so hard.
- [08:36]
A
Okay, Famous last word.
- [08:38]
B
We should have known. Any time. We're like, oh, yeah, that'll be so easy. You're like, oh, now absolutely hard. So I think maybe what we should do is tell everybody what they've won in terms of what the seven deadly sins are and then maybe talk a little bit confusion about that, too. Well, so a couple weeks ago, I was in California and I was early for. I was going from one place to another, but, like, I had more time than I thought, so I stopped somewhere and had, like, breakfast. And it was, like, pretty empty. It was like a weekday morning. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna go ahead and take some notes. So I went to where anyone would go. Wikipedia. Because I will also tell you, here's a little dumb thing I realized. Maybe not so dumb is neither of us are very Christian, but the seven deadly sins sure are. And so a lot of, like, the books and, like, references to this are, like, real crazy. And so I was like, oh, like.
- [09:36]
A
Most Christian things, this is not codified in the Bible, right? Just like, yeah, exactly. Some Christian dudes decided they were gonna, like, add.
- [09:44]
B
Exactly.
- [09:45]
A
Basically what I've discovered is, like, a lot of the stuff. I'm about to get myself into big trouble. I apologize. Listen, I'm turning on the heat before November 1st.
- [09:54]
B
Yeah, listen, we're going straight to hell. This episode is the superhighway. Here we go.
- [10:00]
A
Okay, so. But I think what I've discovered in. Through my adult life is that, like, much of Christianity is actually, like, people who wrote fic about the Bible and then they were like, that's canon.
- [10:16]
B
And then it became canon because a bunch of other dudes were like, yeah, great idea. Right? Yeah.
- [10:20]
A
Like John cassian.
- [10:23]
B
Yeah.
- [10:23]
A
Like, St. Augustine translated all of the Latin shit about Christianity, gets to be in charge of what Christianity is. And the truth is, like, the definitive text does not have a lot of this stuff in it.
- [10:37]
B
Yeah. Now here, let me tell you by two, I did have two sort of funny thoughts. Like, one was, you know, I don't know. I've mentioned this before. Like, I went to Catholic school like, my entire life. And when I say my entire life.
- [10:49]
A
I mean, you should know these by heart. Like.
- [10:52]
B
Well, it's. Well, here's what's interesting. K to 12. Like, K to. Well, first grade to 12, and then also college. Right?
- [10:59]
A
Yeah. You really did do the full.
- [11:01]
B
I did the full banana, yes. Which is ironic because I started fighting my mom about going to church when I was, like, really young. Like, I was never into it. You know what?
- [11:10]
A
The Bible, front to back.
- [11:12]
B
No, Catholics don't read the Bible. Come on, be serious. So that's true, everybody. I literally have no fudgeing idea.
- [11:20]
A
Apologies to anybody Catholic who has read the Bible. I'm just going to. Just, just. I'm just constantly going to drop in apologies.
- [11:25]
B
I am literally going to be like. Sometimes, like, now, I was really familiar, however, with, like, the saints. I was down with that.
- [11:33]
A
Oh, yeah, well, you got. You got confirmed, right?
- [11:36]
B
No, I would. I refused.
- [11:38]
A
You didn't.
- [11:39]
B
Yeah.
- [11:39]
A
And they let you into Catholic college.
- [11:41]
B
They did. Wild, huh? There. That's about money, which, if we're gonna call that greed. Okay. Anyway, here, however, I will tell you a story, which is a story, and I'm sure I have told the story on the podcast, but you're gonna hear here. When my son was really little, like six or seven, somebody mentioned the word sin to him, and he was like, what's that? And I will tell you, Sarah, I felt. I felt very proud of myself.
- [12:09]
A
Of course you did.
- [12:09]
B
Because I had really spent my entire childhood thinking God was real mad at me all the time. Right. And. And I just was really plagued by the idea of sin as a child. Right. Like, I really was very worried about it and very concerned and very much like, you know what I mean? Like, just, like, really frozen with the idea that, like, God was always watching and I was never living up to it. And so I did. I felt really proud to be like, you know what? At least my kid is not wandering around the world convinced God hates him.
- [12:41]
A
So anyway, a plus A plus parenting there.
- [12:44]
B
A plus parenting to me. I'm sure, you know, Catholics are like, no, the whole point is the guilt.
- [12:53]
A
They're just cold in October.
- [12:55]
B
Exactly. They're just cold in October. And we are warm and warm. Okay, so one of the things, though, that was really interesting is. Okay, so the seven deadly sins, everybody. Pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony, and sloth.
- [13:09]
A
Those are the ones we ended up working on.
- [13:11]
B
Yes, those are the. That's the. That's how it evolved over time. But I did end up reading a bunch about, like, kind of how it started. And again, the Wikipedia version, but I'm sure it's fine. Which is basically, like, it started off with the idea of evil thoughts, Right. You could have physical evil thoughts. Emotional ones.
- [13:28]
A
You're all screwed.
- [13:30]
B
Mental ones. Exactly. And then it also, like early versions, like, there was more than seven, and they, like, sort of got combined. Right. Like, so we had talked about sadness.
- [13:42]
A
Right?
- [13:42]
B
So.
- [13:42]
A
Well, because part of this is because. So I was like, the difference between us is Jen was in a coffee shop in LA taking notes. And about a week ago, I was like, oh, we're doing this Seven. Oh, my God. I'm looking. Listen, this is a different. This is why she's a teacher. And I just, you know, I'm literally holding my notes.
- [14:00]
B
I'll take a picture of everybody.
- [14:02]
A
So then I. And I, on the other hand, was like, this is going to be so easy. Like, sin is everywhere in romance novels. Like, I myself have written plenty of this. Wait, a week ago, I was like, all right, well, we're gonna record it this week. I'm gonna just sit down and, like, jot down some ideas. Let me fire up Wikipedia. So I fire up Wikipedia and I make the following. And I do the thing that English teachers across or that teachers across the world say do not do. You should not go to Wikipedia and just write down the thing that seems like the right answer. You have to read more. Well, I'm in my 40s, and I don't have to read more, except I scrolled down to the first list that I could read because the first list is in Greek. And the second list. The first list. Let's call it this. The first list where there were words I. Where the entire list was words I understood.
- [15:00]
B
Sure.
- [15:02]
A
Like, there are some words in that first list. And I was like, what does that mean?
- [15:06]
B
Me too.
- [15:06]
A
I don't know. So then this is the list I wrote down gluttony, lust, greed, sorrow, wrath, sloth, vain, glory, and pride. And I Was like, huh? And then I didn't even think twice. I was like, this must be the list, everyone. First of all, that's eight. Second of all, sorrow is not a deadly sin anymore.
- [15:30]
B
Not anymore. We are allowed to be sorry.
- [15:32]
A
Sorrow.
- [15:33]
B
Okay?
- [15:34]
A
And then I called Jen, and I was like, hey, Jen. Because then it started to get hard right away, and I called Jen, and I was like, hey, Jen, are. This is hard. Can I just confirm that you are also working on this list? And I read it to her, and she was like, no, Sarah, you're like.
- [15:49]
B
Listen, St. Thomas Aquinas is the one who turned sorrow and envy by talking about hatred caused by sorrow.
- [15:57]
A
All right, so what? So give everybody the list.
- [16:00]
B
So pride, which is the big daddy, by the way. Like, this is the worst. I wrote this part down. The most demonic, the source of all other capital sins is pride. I was like, dang, girl. Okay. Envy, greed, lust, wrath, gluttony, and sloth.
- [16:23]
A
Now, is that in order?
- [16:25]
B
It. There is no.
- [16:26]
A
Well, pride of badness.
- [16:28]
B
No, pride's at the top. And all the rest of them are just, like, fighting for dominance, I think. Okay, Yeah, I don't think they're. Although I will say that's not true. There's a last two, and I think it's gluttony.
- [16:38]
A
Gluttony feels like the last one.
- [16:40]
B
Yeah. Like, it's just like all the rest of them are bad.
- [16:43]
A
Gluttony really isn't about food. It's about, like, taking. Like, it's about, like, consumption.
- [16:49]
B
Yes.
- [16:50]
A
So, like, like, exceeding wealth. Like, exceeding excessive hoard. Like, hoarding. Hoarding resources, which you can imagine. Like, back in the day, if you were hoarding all the grain and there was a fucking famine, you were going to hell. Like, it was smart for everybody to be like, hey, maybe we should make sure this guy goes to hell.
- [17:16]
B
Right, Right, Exactly. Well, and it feels related to greed and lust. Right. Like, it's just, like, a very specific subset of it. So, yeah, there's like a top. Pride, the worst, and then the bottom. Gluttony barely made it in. Could have been the seven deadly, the six deadly sins, for all we knew. And then there's the rest of them. So the rest of them are just kind of even from what I can understand. This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Stephanie Rose, author of Safe With Me.
- [17:46]
A
So our heroine, Lila, is on the run. She has had a really rough time of it. Her past is very full of danger and intrigue, and she has decided to make Herself a new life and a new future and put the past behind her in a small town called Kelly Lakes. She does not expect that the moment she walks into Kelly Lake, she is going to come up against a local police officer who is not just a police officer, but also seven years her junior. And Jen, her new boss's son, bikes on bikes. Lila, you really know how to pick them. The problem is there is some banging chemistry between these two. Mike can't keep his eyes off of her. He is yearning for her. Basically anytime they're in a room together and it's a small town, so they're in a room together quite a bit. She. She is not looking for a relationship. And he tells himself like he isn't either. He doesn't believe in love. But the reality is, is that he is going out of his way all the time to protect her, to keep her safe and to chase away all those dark shadows from her past and make sure he is part of her future.
- [19:00]
B
So if you would like to check out this small town age gap romance with a cinnamon roll hero and a heroine in danger, then Safe with Me might be for you. It is available in print, ebook and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Stephanie Rose for sponsoring this week's episode. Let's talk now about why this was so hard to do.
- [19:29]
A
It was so hard.
- [19:30]
B
It was really hard to do, you guys. And here's why.
- [19:33]
A
I think that when you're talking about sin for this particular purpose, like, we. We. So here's the way this is gonna work, everybody. We're going to name this in and then each of us have chosen one book. Although in a couple, I have chosen two. And I will. I will honorable mention one.
- [19:48]
B
We are we.
- [19:49]
A
I mean, I don't know what to say. This is the job.
- [19:53]
B
Glutton Me. Sarah, when it comes to romance novels, you and I are gluttonous. It's fine.
- [19:57]
A
Yeah, exactly. I think that when you are talking about sin, it feels like it's got to be bad. Like the representation has to be big and like an intense. And so for me, it's not just good enough for him to be like a rake. Like, he's got to be fucking terrible.
- [20:19]
B
Okay? So I agree that that's part of it. And I really tried hard to like. And I told you this, I was like, the way it started working for me is I was really like, okay, what were the Books where I was like, that was real wrong, that was real wrong what you did. The books where I was like, you're in cold storage. You have not repented enough. And I did think to myself. I found my. Myself thinking a lot about, like, the idea of, like, repenting or suffering versus atonement. Also very Christian. I'm sorry. Like, we can't get away from it, right? Like, probably. If you are not Christian, you're probably gonna, at some point, just turn this all off and be like, this is ridiculous. Right? Like, it's so steeped in, like, Christianity.
- [20:56]
A
Or not, though, because some of this is just. It's just gonna be fun for you.
- [21:00]
B
Yeah, I hope so. But here's the other thing I really found myself thinking, which was like, that certain kinds of sin in romance are not presented as sin. Certain deadly sins, right? Like lust or greed. Right. Like, every billionaire, but nobody's ever greedy. Right? Wrath. Right. Like, so. And then I was thinking about, like, yeah, like, so some of them we think of as being kind of repugnant. Like, let me. Right. Or even potentially sloth. Right. How are you? How do you make that sexy? Like, I don't know. I had this moment where I was like, romance is really telling on itself when you view it through this lens.
- [21:43]
A
Mm. I also found that there were several where I was like, oh, you can find this. Like, I sort of was like, oh, this is sort of a dime a dozen sin in romance. And then for those, I was like, well, what is the. Like, what's the thing that's gonna make. Lust is the obvious example, right? Dime a dozen in romance. So what's the obvious. What's the. Like, what's the thing that rises a book to the top, right?
- [22:18]
B
Or right. Or pushes it to the point where even we as readers are like, it's the pick too much. Yeah.
- [22:25]
A
Yeah. I mean, I don't know that I went too much, but I think that's. That's my lack of 17 years of Catholic education showing, I think. But I do think, like, I had one that was much harder for me than all the others. Like, okay, I had one. And I think it. And I'll tell you, it was pride, because I sort of knew what I wanted to find and I couldn't find quite find. Like, every time I came up with something, I was like, all right, yes, that works. But is that the. Is that the. The. Like, the one dialed up to 11, like, can I find another? Can I find something more? And I do think I spent a lot of time thinking about, like, punishment, like, what I wanted. And I don't know that I wanted it to necessarily be like, punishment at the end, although with pride. I think one of the things I was really looking for was, like, a book where a hero has been just, like, laid low.
- [23:33]
B
Yeah, right.
- [23:34]
A
Like a deeply prideful hero who has to just, like, be broken by his pride and his arrogance and, like. But in other cases, I think what I was really looking for was just, like, a real heightened sense of the character having to reckon with the feeling.
- [23:58]
B
Yeah. I think that's kind of where I landed too. It was interesting. The ones that I had the hardest time with, believe it or not, and this can sound stupid, it was greed, and I think it was really. Because, like I said, romance really traffics. Romance is not there to question our assumptions about class. Right. And I feel like there are a gazillion billionaires, but it is always, always presented as. Because at some point, this money is used to make the other character's life better. It is acceptable.
- [24:36]
A
Right, Right. And all the other problems that come with being a billionaire are. Are.
- [24:41]
B
Right. We just kind of like, hand wave and wait. Now listen.
- [24:43]
A
Even I will watch the wall literally burn at the billionaires.
- [24:47]
B
Right. And.
- [24:48]
A
And.
- [24:48]
B
And romance is really not. Not doing much.
- [24:55]
A
No.
- [24:56]
B
About that problem.
- [24:56]
A
Can I say something about that? The more I. I'm gonna slip. I. I don't want to. I don't want to do, like, it's 2024, and we're all, like, vibrating at a pitch. Like, I want this to be fun, but the. But one of the things I will say is like. Like in 2024, as we are all vibrating a pitch and I am looking at the world and billionaires, I am really starting to feel like the appeal of the billionaire is a deeply American thing. And the reason. And I. I mean, I. I am an American, so it's very difficult for me to. I mean, I could be talking out of my whole ass, so tell me I'm wrong everybody else. But it feels to me like in America, the appeal of the willing, our willingness to sort of hand wave away all the bad about billionaires is in some part because we are, like, raised on the meat food of capitalism and the theory that we might all access those billions someday, even though we definitely are not going to. Like, so, like, I mean, if you think about. It's just. It's just so illogical. But it's like, that is the full American dream. We are taught it from the time we, like, are. You know, from when we are Knee high. And there is. So I think, like, I think greed comes. I'm very excited now because you said that. And my greed book is a very different kind of book.
- [26:36]
B
Yeah.
- [26:36]
A
So I think it's going to be really fun to talk through, like, what we sort out. But like, I did not go to money with greed.
- [26:43]
B
Yeah, I didn't either because I was like, it's not even worth it. Like, I can't. Yeah, like, we all know these billionaire books are fucking wrong. Okay. Yeah. Okay, here's my other one. Last thing I'm going to say is, at some point I decided that it was a lot easier for me to like, name these people as sinners. Maybe this is the ex Catholic schoolgirl in me when they were people like me. Right. Because I was like, I. So I was really white CIS het people. Yeah, same.
- [27:14]
A
I had difficulty.
- [27:16]
B
I'm gonna self identify here because.
- [27:18]
A
Yeah, well, I also think, and we've talked about this on the podcast, but like, marginalized characters tend to have a different kind of story than this. Like, this is not. Like, these are. These are the flaws and foibles of a dominant.
- [27:34]
B
Yes.
- [27:35]
A
People.
- [27:36]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So I just at some point was like, you know what? I'm gonna let myself. I'm just gonna have that be the way it is.
- [27:44]
A
I do have. I mean, like. Yeah, I think. I think that's fine.
- [27:48]
B
Yeah. So I mean, I just want to name it before we get started. Like, I really was like, I think this is what feels right to me is like self identifying your own class of people. Right. The white Susan. People doing the wrong things. Yeah. Okay. So, Sarah, the question is then where do you want to start?
- [28:04]
A
Where do I start?
- [28:06]
B
I don't know. I feel like we should like roll it out. Which random number generator.
- [28:10]
A
Which is your favorite? Which is your favorite sin?
- [28:16]
B
Oh, boy. I guess. You know what? Here, let me. I guess I would say like one where I felt like I came up with a really good book, even though it was hard for me was envy. Yep. Okay.
- [28:28]
A
All right.
- [28:29]
B
So. And part of the reason that I thought it was really. Was really difficult was true envy. Right. Is a very. I mean, all these are unpleasant, but like, you can really have a great time being wrathful, envied. No one feels good being envious. Right. And so it's resentful covetousness. Right. And I think the thing that I really found myself thinking was like, these would be unpleasant people or unhappy people. And. And I was like. So I just really had a hard time finding because I don't think, for example, it's like, longing, right? I guess it could be, right? Like, you're married to my, you know, my brother's wife or whatever. But I.
- [29:14]
A
Funny that you should mention that.
- [29:15]
B
I had a feel, right, Because I was like, what else would you envy, right?
- [29:19]
A
That was. I mean, instantly I was like, I gotta find a widow book.
- [29:22]
B
Yeah, yeah. So I chose one of the Ice Planet Barbarian books, actually. It's called Barbarians Taming. And it's like the eighth book. So, you know, potentially you didn't get there. And what it is, is Maddie is the last woman to match, right? And she has been really pretty difficult and unpleasant. You know, in earlier books, she definitely like her sister, essentially. I think it was the one where her sister is hard of hearing or is deaf. And Maddie's job was essentially always to, like, be her sister's, like, translator almost. And then her sister didn't need that from her anymore. And Maddie is, like, consumed with, like, envy that she is here and alone and everyone else has done this thing and who is there going to be for her? And the one that she matches with Hasan is the same. He is the one who, a couple books earlier, tried to essentially kidnap one of them to, like, force resonance, right? So in the Ice Planet Barbarians books, you have to essentially resonate, like, this faded. Yeah, yeah, it's faded, right? And that's how you know that this is your person. And he was expelled from the tribe, essentially. He is essentially like, he can't live inside the, like, the caves. He has to just hunt for the benefit of all of them, to prove, like, he is essentially literally everyone in cold storage. So these two are really. And he really desperately wanted a mate. And she doesn't really want that. She just didn't want to be the last one. And so I think here you have two people who are. Who are just, like, consumed with envy for what they think other people have or how they think things should have gone. And what ends up happening is she notices that he. She's, like, kind of determined, like, well, kind of fuck this. At least I can learn how to hunt and be useful myself. And so she asks him to teach her how to hunt, and she's essentially, like, able to slip out because no one's paying attention to her. And I thought it was just really. And, you know, eventually, of course, they, like, resonate. But this really. And what I liked about it was, like, the double envy. Envy squared, right? Like, they both are so miserable, and they just are surrounded by people that have everything they want. And yet they can't see, like, each other as, like, a potential possibility. And it's like a case where, like, the faded mateness of it all really plays out, I think, in a smart way, because, of course, these two are gonna end up being perfect for each other. Right. So anyway, it's. And. And it's also, like I said, it's really. It's the eighth book. I think I looked, and I feel like at that point, you're kind of like, okay, I get the gimmick of these. Like, they just match up, and it's great. And then this is one where it's really, like. I don't know, it's like, big feelings, and they were not all good ones. Right. They were real ugly and really messy. But it also felt so justified.
- [32:38]
A
That's a good pick. I knew that for Envy, I wanted it to be, like, unrequited love with somebody who cares about wife. Like, that felt it feels so taboo and sinful that, like. And so I thought through, like, all the obvious choices, like the Gorilla twins, the Waking up with the Duke. Lorraine has done it multiple times. Lorraine Heath has done it multiple times and others. And. And I ended up like. And I actually was like, this is gonna be. I gave myself two gimmes. Like, two. I actually gave myself one gimme initially. And then I, like, literally wandered around all week and, like, gave myself the second one because I was like, that's the answer.
- [33:20]
B
Yeah.
- [33:20]
A
I, like, I solved the riddle on the second one. But the. And so I do want to say I picked Naima Simonson in Ink.
- [33:28]
B
Yeah.
- [33:29]
A
Because he Talk about a person who, like, God, he. I mean, he is destroyed by the fact that he is doing this terrible thing.
- [33:40]
B
Yeah, he really is.
- [33:41]
A
It's amazing, and I love it. Okay, so the premise of this. We have talked about this on the podcast, but I don't think we've talked about it recently. So Knox is a retired MMA fighter who is now a tattoo artist. Perfect. And Eden, I mean, Naima is really leaning in here to the original sin business. Eden is his brother's widow, and his brother dies, and it, like, destroys the family, as we all know that it would. And then she is. But she is still, like, deeply connected to the family, still has, like, a lot of, like, relation. Like, her relationship with his parents is very strong, and she works, and he's given her a job in her tattoo in his tattoo parlor, where basically every day he just, like, sweats and, like, watches her, like, and just can't deal.
- [34:41]
B
Yeah.
- [34:42]
A
Until, like, one Day she's, you know, she actually like makes a, a move and he is like, I can't handle it. Like I can't. I'm going to. It's going to ruin my life. And then he put the. The second it happens, he just like he just unlocks like it and then he can't stop himself. It feels so. It feels like he is like unable to control, I think. And I think that is another piece of this like sinfulness. It has to feel uncontrollable in a way. Like it has to feel as though like stopping it will.
- [35:21]
B
Will.
- [35:21]
A
It takes an act of God.
- [35:23]
B
Yes.
- [35:24]
A
Right. Like so literally.
- [35:26]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:27]
A
And so that's what, that's what happens here. It like they hide it from her fan, from the family. He is like wrecked about it. He thinks that like she's only with him because he reminds her of his brother. Like it is very, very rough out here in this Naima, Simone. I mean we all know this Naima can dial it all up to 11. So that's where I got it. I got to. Because also he has been in love with her. Like for me it was about. Right. Like it has to be that you have just been like lusting after. That was the. That was the other thing I thought about is like a lot of these are layered. Right. Like he has been lusting after this woman for since the moment they met and his brother just got there first.
- [36:15]
B
Yeah, right, exactly. Well, and it's interesting because like the definition is sort of like wanting what beyond what God has given you. Right? Like essentially like. Right. His brother got it. And so wanting it is so wrong.
- [36:29]
A
This is another one. This is. I just want to pause and like talk about historicals for a moment but like historically it has been illegal for you to marry your brothers widow. Like that is a. Like for. It is no longer illegal for that to happen obviously, because that's silly. But like for many, for hundreds of years, like that was verboten by the church. Like because you were family.
- [36:59]
B
Do you have a runner up for envy?
- [37:03]
A
I mean I said, I sort of talked about the others, but no, I did not have a runner up. That was my. That was my pick.
- [37:09]
B
That was your pick? Okay, I had a runner up. I've talked about it before. Sinning in Vegas by Sam Mariano. This is the one where Laurel is pregnant after a one night stand and goes to Vegas to find Rafe and then he's kind of like knocked that into her. And so his like lieutenant, whose name is Sin by the way, essentially is like, well, I better keep her here because he's gonna want her. And then, of course, he falls in love with her. And it's like a. Like a true, like, love triangle. The next one is called it's like Sinning in Vegas. And then there's like, a second one staying in Vegas, I think. Okay. But, yeah, envy. I was. It was. I thought it was a hard one.
- [37:49]
A
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Laura Mohair, author of what She's Having.
- [37:56]
B
So July Tate is a force to be reckoned with. She's a big, strong blonde with a heart the size of her whole town. And she is just really capable. And everybody thinks that she's just, like, got it together. But what they don't know is that she had a devastating lost love. And so she is just really nev. Determined to never be vulnerable like that again. Well, coming back into town is Joe Anderson, that high school boyfriend who broke her heart. And he knew the first moment he saw her that she was the one. And. But he had to leave, and he never told her why. And so now that he's back, he is desperate to sort of explain to her why he disappeared, but instead, she's just like, I don't want anything to do with you. And so that girl that he was in love with is now this powerhouse woman who has stolen his heart and soul. And he's trying to convince her that they have a chance together. But she. Even though she feels that chemistry and she knows that, like, the spark is still there, she also keeps making mistakes when he's around. And she just feels like she cannot afford to make the same mistake twice. So what is gonna happen?
- [39:09]
A
Well, this one is for anybody who wants a second chance romance, who loves a plus sized heroine and a cinnamon roll hero, or is looking for found family in a small town. You can get what she's having right now in print, ebook, or audiobook. And in special podcasting apps, you can click on the chapter title to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Laura Mohair for sponsoring this week' episode.
- [39:38]
B
All right, what do you want to do next?
- [39:40]
A
How about lust? Let's just do it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
- [39:47]
B
This is a hard one, cuz. Lust is great.
- [39:49]
A
So many. Right? So I'll talk about how I narrowed it down and, like, then what I sort of felt was the right thing to do. And I do have a runner up for this one.
- [40:00]
B
This is the least serious one, according to my notes.
- [40:06]
A
Oh, right, because Thomas Aquinas said something like, oh, it's but we're basically animals. It's, like, coming. It's like we have the same feelings as animals, and, like, you just have to overcome it. That's probably because Thomas Aquinas was a lustful monk.
- [40:19]
B
Sure.
- [40:20]
A
I mean, let's be honest. So.
- [40:23]
B
And also, this is, like, one of those ones where, like, there's so much of it in romance. Like, you're supposed to want to lust after people like that.
- [40:29]
A
That's.
- [40:29]
B
That's, like, what makes it so great, Right?
- [40:32]
A
Exactly. Exactly. And I think we. We care a lot less about lust than. Yeah, okay, so what I was thinking was. All right, if everything is about the feeling, lust is one of those things that, like, again, you find it in many romances, Right. Like, I will say, you don't find it in all romances. Like, I'm not always convinced that the characters in a romance are lusting after each other, but, like, I am in Lust with Dane is one of the greatest lines ever written in a romance novel. And so, like, I think that there is something very great about the idea that, like, in some books, like, we. In a lot of these books, like, lust is just commonplace. So for me, what it felt like was that we had to come. I had to come up with books where every. All the other noise was quiet and lust was loud.
- [41:26]
B
Okay?
- [41:28]
A
So my first pick is Sawyer Bennett's Uncivilized, which is basically a Tarzan retelling.
- [41:38]
B
And I'm not mad about it.
- [41:40]
A
Listen, and I pick. So the setup. The setup is this. The heroine is, like, an anthropologist, and she is hired by a wealthy, like, man, a billionaire, a grandfather, like, who is a grandfather to go into, like, the South American, like, rainforest to, like, an isolated community of people where he believes his child, his grandchild, was orphaned 30 years ago. Say. So she's like. He pays her a grip of money. She's a professor at a university, or she's. She's like a researcher at a university. Pays her a grip of money to, like, go down there and, like, trek into the rainforest and find this man. She goes into the rainforest. She finds the tribe. She finds this man who, like, now has been adopted by, like, the head of the tribe and is now, like, basically, like a leader. Like a tribal leader in this. I mean, again, there's some, like, question. Listen, I hear myself. Everyone, I just want to say I hear it.
- [42:43]
B
Listen, that's not what we're doing.
- [42:45]
A
This.
- [42:45]
B
We're not. This is not a sin.
- [42:47]
A
Well, it might be, but so, whatever. So she turns up at this place. She sees this man, like, across, like, a room, and he is, like, fucking another woman in, like, it's not a room. They're, like, in the. They're just, like, out. And she is immediately, like, oh, my God. Like, immediately just drawn to him. She's found him. She's like, okay, I'm going to bring him back to, like, I'm gonna explain to him what the situation is. He was orphaned late enough in life that he speaks English, makes everything a little easier.
- [43:26]
B
Ideal. Well done.
- [43:28]
A
Yeah. So she explains to him what's happened. She's basically like, I have been, like, tasked to bring you back. She brings him back, and he has, like, no understanding of, like, technology, like, the. Like, the modern world, like, out in America, like, in, you know, civilization. And so he is there and he is beholden to her, like, in all ways, except for the fact that he is, like, basically a sex God. Like, because in the culture that he was raised in, like, sex was just, like, a thing done. Like, it was like, it wasn't. It wasn't anathema. It wasn't scary. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't a sin. And he's like, I don't understand why, like, he's. He's basically like, I can smell that you're into me. Why don't you just let me eat you out? And she's like, I could never. Like, that would be unethical. First of all, like, I'm. I'm a researcher. I'm a scientist.
- [44:32]
B
Amazing.
- [44:33]
A
And he's like. He's just like, I think you would do better if you just, like, had a few orgasms. And like, we want each other. And these two are at it for, like, the whole first, like, two thirds of this book. And it is, I'm not gonna lie, very, very fun to read. Because you're like. Because everything else is dialed down and the lust is dialed up. And that is my choice.
- [45:01]
B
That's smart. That's smart. Okay, so for this one, again, like, you, I had one. I mean, some of these we've mentioned before, but I. We really were trying to, like, not do, like, Jen and Sarah's greatest hits, right? But like, you, I was like, I have to have a couple gimmes. And so for this one, I was really like. I think I came at it from a different angle, which was like, I was really looking for a book where the. The lust was essentially, like, malformed in some way. Right? Like, it came out in a way that was not great, like, Taste the Chain style. No.
- [45:37]
A
What I can I tell everybody that I found a floor. Wait, did I tell everybody this already?
- [45:44]
B
Well, you did on Banter Plus.
- [45:45]
A
I told everybody on the Banter Plus. Everybody, the new Jessica and came out and I found a floor. I can finish it.
- [45:51]
B
You're like a bar I found.
- [45:53]
A
Let me tell you something. The bar is, like, deep in the earth.
- [45:55]
B
But I did find it amazing. Okay? So what I picked, and I have talked about this book before because I'm fascinated by it. It's like a book where. And again, I think the other thing I told Sarah is for me, I really was, like, trying to think of, like, one of the ways, like, how do you sort through the millions of romances in my head? And I was like, what were the ones where I would read it and think this is wrong? Like, there's no way to. There's no way to. There's no way to repair what has happened here. And so the book I'm going to talk about is Bass Ackwards by Eris Adderley. And this is the one where Christina works for Bill at the, like, local U Haul type shop, right? And she needs time off. And she like, kind of puts on a dress that day and is like, I'm gonna just be really nice to Bill all day at work because I'm gonna have to have to ask him this big favor to get time off.
- [46:50]
A
Listen, can I tell you something? The fact that this hero's name is Bill.
- [46:53]
B
Oh, I think it's so purposeful time.
- [46:55]
A
You describe it to me. I'm just like, mind fucked by this.
- [46:58]
B
Well, go on. I think that's what's so perfect about it.
- [47:01]
A
You cannot build me.
- [47:04]
B
No. But you cannot convince me that that's not actually part of it. Right? Like, this is not right. Like, this is not a romance hero, Right? This is just a regular guy who's a jerk at work, but he owns the place, so what can you do? So Christina's like, bill, I need time off. And he's like, no. And she's like, no, Bill, I really need to take, you know, tomorrow off or whatever. And at this point, we don't know why either. And he. And she. And he's just like, no, you can. I'm sorry, I'm gonna need you in the shop or whatever. And she's like, she's persistent. She really needs to stay off. And he's like, okay, fine, if we go in the back and you let me, you then you can have the day off. And she's like, okay. And he is horrified at what he has done, but also so desperately in lust with her that he takes her back and fucks her. And then halfway through, he's like, so do you want the rest of tada too? Cause let me fuck you in the ass while I'm back here. Because he figures I'm never gonna get one shot at this and she is gonna probably never come back. Right? Like, why would she? I have crossed so many boundaries, but I. I literally, all I want is her. And it is awful. You guys. I am not gonna lie to you if you are like, that sounds awful and cannot be redeemed. Like you. I was like, hmm, how's this gonna work?
- [48:31]
A
And this is not Jen's floor.
- [48:34]
B
No. And it did, but it worked for me, right? But I think it worked for me because from the jump, once we get in his point of view, we realize that he knows he is doing wrong, but he cannot stop himself. And to me, that is like the very definition of sin.
- [48:50]
A
You knew.
- [48:50]
B
What's wrong, Bill? Bill, you knew. Right? And so anyway, I think that this is like, to me, because that's what I was really looking for. Like, right? Like a situation where it's. It's. You're just like, bill, what the fuck did you do that for? Why? And he just couldn't. You know, he's older than her. He dumbass. He couldn't imagine. He knew that. You know, it's like. But like, every single thing that made it impossible, he was like, well, can never happen. And even when he says it to her, he doesn't really think she's gonna say yes. He just wanted to, like, scare her off. Like, right. She'd like, scurry away and be horrified and they could, like, never talk about it again. And instead they're back in his office doing it. Yeah, it's shocking. It's a shocking. But I, again, like, the term for me really worked at that level of like, you. Bill, what are you doing?
- [49:44]
A
Do you have a second one there?
- [49:45]
B
I don't. I was like, I have a second one.
- [49:48]
A
Yeah, I have a second one. Because the other version of that, of this pick for me was in order for it to be truly a sin, it has to damage. Like, it has to leave, like, carnage in its wake.
- [50:02]
B
Yeah.
- [50:03]
A
Right. So I also picked Robin Lovett's Stolen Desire, which is the third book in her Planet of Desire books. Usually I talk about the first one because it's such a bonkers idea.
- [50:17]
B
Yeah.
- [50:17]
A
But so the premise of the Planet of Desire books is that it's sci fi Romance. And if you land on this particular planet, the atmosphere is livable for humans, but it is filled with aphrodisiac. And if you don't have orgasms, like, as soon as possible, as often as possible, you will die. You will be poisoned by the atmosphere of this planet. So this series goes exactly the way you think it will and then on in. But in book three, so there's this issue where, like, when people get sick, like, if people get sick on the island, on the planet, like, there is like, in theory, like a sex God who can, like, come and like, essentially sex you. Well.
- [51:14]
B
Yeah.
- [51:15]
A
And so the premise of this book is there is. She is not human. She is another, like, alien race. And she needs her. Her friend has been taken prisoner, like, whatever romance reasons is not important. And she needs a very, very fast ship. And she gets down to this. She goes to this island because the. This planet. Because the. The sex God, the, like, the person that this, like, sex healer is, he has like, the fastest ship in the galaxy or whatever, and she needs it. And so he. She is on this planet and he is. And, like, she is immediately aware of him as her. Her breed faded mates. Right?
- [52:04]
B
Yeah.
- [52:04]
A
And so she immediately, like, can't stop thinking about him. Like, she's like, this is the person. Like, I'm pretty sure this is my mate. Like, yeah. And they have sex once. I think it's like they. I can't remember it. Like, it's either two or three times, but, like, there's a magic number. And if she has sex with the same person or it's not fata mate, it's like she has sex with the same person more than this number of times. Like, they're her mate. Like, she becomes mated to them and then if she loses them, like, she dies. She can't survive. So they are like, having all, like, the lust that they feel from the effort, from the atmosphere, like, is all consuming. And if they have. He is like a polyamorous. Like, he is not. He is sort of aware of the fact that he can never mate. Like, because his purpose on this planet is to, like, be able to have sex with everyone. And so he. So she's like, if we continue to do this thing that we are both drawn to do, we will mate. Like, I. My body will mate.
- [53:15]
B
Yeah.
- [53:16]
A
And. And I won't be able to survive it. And your purpose is to, like, be able to be with whomever.
- [53:26]
B
This is the one where it was her purpose to be the one. Okay. Yeah, it's fine.
- [53:30]
A
No, the next the next one. Okay, so there's. Well, because he's. Because he may. Because sure.
- [53:38]
B
Of course.
- [53:38]
A
Spoiler everybody. They get together, and then a new one is born. Or born a new one is made.
- [53:43]
B
A new slayer is right.
- [53:45]
A
The woman in the. The Here. The heroine of the fourth book. Got it. Anyway, but the point is so, like, it's this very emotional in a lot of ways, like lustfulness, where, like, they are soup. They know that the more they touch, the more they interact, the more they give in to this, like, sin.
- [54:04]
B
Yeah.
- [54:05]
A
The further they. The closer they are to, like, her demise. And he, at some point is like, we cannot do this. Then, like, we. I cannot touch you again. Like, I can't. And then, of course.
- [54:21]
B
Of course.
- [54:23]
A
Because then they get on the spaceship Jen, and they leave. And the AF and the. The atmosphere isn't there anymore. And they still can't. They're still, like, obsessed with each other anyway. These books are, like, very ridiculously fun. Like, the concept is so silly, and I still read them all.
- [54:43]
B
Yeah, that's good. That's a good call.
- [54:47]
A
This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Kylie Scott, author of Text Appeal.
- [54:53]
B
So romance author Riley Cooper has always dreamed of living by the water. And when she moves into the charming seaside town of Port Stewart to work on her latest book, she ends up changing her number. And all of a sudden, she is getting texts and calls for the guy who used to have that number. And these texts are just, like, all over the place. Weird. Sad. Sexy. Just, like, she is so curious. Perfect. And so she ends up meeting Connor. And the reason he changed his number is because he had been on again, off again for years with his high school girlfriend. And he just, like, was like, I have to, like, break the chain of evidence, right? And so this, he figures out that Riley has his new number. And the thing is, though, is, like, no one in town is, like, gonna let him be. Like, he just is so pigeonholed as being, you know, like, the prom king and, you know, girlfriend of this, you know, the perfect boyfriend. So he and Riley hatch up this plan, which is that if they're gonna do some fake dating, and that way people in town will leave them alone. Leave him alone because he's got a new girlfriend while he can help her do some research for her romance writing.
- [56:08]
A
Perfect.
- [56:09]
B
If you know what I mean. So, however, of course, they are falling for each other. And so could this fake texting and fake dating turn into the real deal?
- [56:21]
A
If this one sounds like it's for you, it probably Is Kylie Scott is terrific. This was an Audible original, so it's available right now in audio, but is being released in ebook this week. So you can get text appeal in print, ebook and audio this week. And in special podcasting apps, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Kylie Scott for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [56:49]
B
All right, let's do Gluttony, because this was a hard one for me, okay? Because gluttony, of course, is again, like. Like overindulgence over consumption to the point of waste. But almost always people think about it in terms of food, right? And I do not like a food romance. I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. So I found myself instead thinking about.
- [57:13]
A
Like, this is gonna be a long episode.
- [57:15]
B
Like, yeah, like, what else could it be, right? But this is one I really, like, cast about for. And I'm not sure I came up with the best idea. I have two kind of. But the one I ended up actually doing, deciding to talk about, is Fury on Fire by Sophie Jordan. This is part of the Devil's Rock series. Again, I've probably mentioned this book, like, at some point, and in this one, it's like, maybe four books in north. Callahan is the hero, and he has been behind bars for however long. And in this book, he gets out. So he is out. And Faith is his new next door neighbor in this, like, duplex. So he's on one side and she's on the other. And this man is like, I am going to do all of the things that I have not been able to do for years. And it's not. I mean, some of it's about women, but it's about, like, loud music or, like. Right. Like, it's just like. And. And Faith is so, like, sort of like by her name, like, real buttoned up, you know what I mean? Her brother is the sheriff, and he is like, you know, kind of like, you know, she. She has been really under the thumb of her father, who was, I think, the sheriff before her brother, right? And so, you know, for her it was like kind of saving up and, like, moving out and going on her own was this huge thing. Like she was gonna really, like, live for the first time. And now she is next door to someone who is living for the first time, and it is a very different experience that they're having. And she is horrified by him, by the, like, string of women going in and out again, like, the loud music, the, like, late nights, the drink like whatever it is he's doing and judgmental of it too. And then of course, they finally, you know, get it on or whatever. But Norris, on the other hand, because we are in his point of view for a good part of the book, just feels like not like his life was stolen from him necessarily. Right. But like he was in for longer than he should have been or he got some like, extra sentence. I actually kind of can't remember those details, but that he is then, like, I cannot believe that I finally get out and then this like, little Do Gooder next door, right. Is telling me, like knocking on my door and telling me to be quiet. And I think it. To me, it just really captured the idea of like someone who was like. Like, I. Nothing is going to stop me from just taking everything I want because. But it comes from, like this scarcity mindset. Of course. I really love this whole series, but like, this one in particular I also really love because I thought it was such an in. And I remember, like, you know, it's so distinctive, like this sort of where this man is in terms of like, what he thinks he wants to experience in his life. And he's not gonna let this woman stop him until he falls in love with her. Fine.
- [60:18]
A
I love it.
- [60:19]
B
Yeah.
- [60:20]
A
Okay, I'm deep cutting this. This is one of my, like. So I wanna talk about Cajun Hot by Nikita Black.
- [60:29]
B
Woo. Deep cuts, everybody.
- [60:33]
A
Well, wait. Cause you didn't tell everybody your process. We are like. Like, this episode's gonna be like two hours long.
- [60:40]
B
Yeah.
- [60:40]
A
But your process, as you described to me.
- [60:43]
B
Yeah.
- [60:43]
A
Was that you opened your Kindle and re. And changed the search order.
- [60:48]
B
Yes. To like, like reverse.
- [60:51]
A
Like chronological order. And when I was like, this is so hard. I'm gonna try Jen's process first of all. Get ready, everybody. For the next few weeks, you're gonna hear about all sorts of weird books that I read in like 20.
- [61:05]
B
In 2012. 2012, exactly. But you forget. You forget the books you've read and.
- [61:11]
A
Then you're like, you wait. Absolutely.
- [61:13]
B
Right. And listen, it helped me.
- [61:16]
A
Okay, so hear me out. Gluttony for me felt so initially I was like, I'm going to do a food romance. Right. And then I was like, no, that's sort of obvious. And also, like, I don't think of gluttony. I don't think gluttony is really about food. Like, I think gluttony is about like. Like pleasure. Right? It's about like. It's about like over consumption of pleasure. So and, like, the constant sense that, like, I want more pleasure. So. Okay, bear with me. Jen, let me paint you a picture. Our heroine, Sahara, is a wildlife photographer for national. And she is, like, desperate to get into National Geographic traffic. So she has taken herself into the deep bayou of Louisiana to photograph, I don't know, orchids or some shit. Who cares? And then fossils. Bayou fossils. So she gets found. She's lost. She gets lost in the bayou because of course she does. Because don't go into the bayou, everybody, without, you know, a person who knows where they're going. And she's found by Jacques and Quint and the brothers of, you know, two Cherch brothers. I think their last name is Cherch. They take her home.
- [62:38]
B
This was not a floor for you. No floor. No floor, everybody.
- [62:44]
A
They take her home. They take her home and they start to, like, fool around. And then Jacques's wife shows up. Oh, no. Quint's wife shows up and she's like, what the is going on here? And he's like, oh, I was just fooling. It's fine. And then he leaves. So. And then it's just Jacques and Sahara. And Jacques is like, I want you. Like, and it's not lust. I mean, it is lust, but it's not just lust. It's like he's like, I want you. Like, I take. Right? A little, like, kidnapping, if you will. Had I remembered I read this book a few weeks ago, that's what we would have talked about. So he's like, I want you. She's like, okay, fine. She totally misunderstands that what he's actually saying is, like, no, I want you here. And so they, like, fool around. It's super sexy. This is like a high heat erotic romance, right? There's like, a moment, and then, like, she's like, okay, I gotta go. And he's like, oh, no, no, you misunderstood. You're not going. Now I have you. Like, I want you, and now you're mine. And so she escapes, but she escapes to, like, the nearest town where there are, like, a bunch of other bayou people who are, like, hanging around. And then he goes into town and he basically is like, this is my wife. And everyone's like, well, I guess that's that then. Looks like you're married. And she's like, what? And then he, like, takes her back to the cabin in the bayou, and they, like, around a little more. And then she tries to escape again and again. And every time she tries to escape, like, like some goofy townsperson, like, at one point, she meets the sheriff and the sheriff is like, well, I don't know. She's been like, you seem, you seem a little crazy. I must. I gotta take you back to your husband. And she's like, motherfuckers, this is not my husband. And Jacques is like, I want you. And the whole time, every time she walks into this house, he is cooking.
- [64:37]
B
And he's like amazing.
- [64:39]
A
Making. Making gumbo. He makes her pancakes. And like he every. Like she gets hot, she gets head up. And he's like, he's like, do you want. Do you want maple syrup on your pancakes? And she's like, yes. And then like he makes her perfect pancakes and he makes her this beautiful gumbo. And he like. And then like at one point this is sort of maybe too much information, but whatever I like to bring, I like to. We perform a service here at Faded Mates.
- [65:03]
B
Yes.
- [65:03]
A
Headphones in everyone. He goes down on her and like. And like, like, he's like. But the like spice from the gumbo might bother you. And she's like, well, let's try it anyway. Like, she's super into it, right? Amazing. And so, because he's been like tasting his gumbo and like, what's amazing is there's this sense throughout this like short erotic novel that like at the visceral like. Yeah, the. There's this sense of like you can smell the cabin and like, like you can feel his touch and you can like taste the food. And it all just feels so like humid.
- [65:38]
B
Like.
- [65:39]
A
Yeah, heavy and humid and really delicious. And then listen, I. I can't not spoil it for everybody, but so the whole thing. Sahara has she. You would actually love this heroine, Jen, because she is like, I have a dream of a career because I grew up with nothing and I want to make money. Like I want to. I want a house, I want a job, I want like a life. I never want to have to worry about money. And like I'm definitely not living here in your like backwoods cabin, like with you and your like weird brother and sister in law down the road. And he's like, you're gonna fall in love with me. And of course she does. When she does. What Would you believe, Jen?
- [66:18]
B
They've been married all along.
- [66:20]
A
No, he's a billionaire.
- [66:22]
B
Well, obviously she has. Silly me.
- [66:25]
A
Like some Cajuns sauce company.
- [66:30]
B
Sure, sure. I was like, I don't know. Of course he's a billionaire. Of course, if it was early, the early Kindle days, it might not be.
- [66:40]
A
A billionaire, he might be a millionaire, but he's got some Cajun sauce company and he's basically like. And then literally like at the end she's like, what do you mean?
- [66:51]
B
That's awesome. I love it.
- [66:52]
A
Yeah, it's pretty great. So that's Nikita Black's Cajun Hot.
- [66:57]
B
That's pretty great. Okay, so I. Wait, what are we doing?
- [67:02]
A
Gluttony.
- [67:03]
B
Oh, I did mine already. Yeah. Oh, do you. I do have a. I have a, like a runner up that I thought was kind of similar.
- [67:09]
A
And again I have a quick runner up.
- [67:11]
B
Yeah, I will be very quick. Which is Beautiful Stranger by Christina Lauren. They have like a one night stand in a bar and then they just cannot get enough of each other. But they do. And they do it all over town. But like, I think that's like the part that makes it really interesting to me. It's like in the library, in public, right? Like, it's like they're really skirting the edge of danger. Cause they're both, I guess, exhibitionists. And it's just like really intense the way that they are. Like again, like that's like a real like when I think about that book, it's just like they just, just, it's gluttonous. Like the way that they want each other. This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Blue Box Press, publishers of Book of the Month by Jennifer Probst.
- [67:58]
A
So Aspen, our heroine has a problem. Jen, she is a well known. She wrote this like kind of huge beach read that was a heartbreak romance all about that she basically ripped from her own life. Uh, it doesn't end happily. It's full of feelings and drama. And now she's expected to produce a second book that is similar to the first. Problem is she's used all her heartbreak in that first book so she needs to go find more. So she comes up with an idea which is she's going to head out to the Outer Banks where she's going to find a local heartthrob with a reputation to kind of have a relationship with her for the summer and then break her heart at the end of it. And then she's going to take that heartbreak and pour it all into a new book. Problem is, the heartthrob she finds, whose name is Brick of course, absolutely refuses to play this game. He rejects her until she discovers that his tour company is on the verge of bankruptcy and offers him a deal he can't refuse. She's got all this money and he's pretty hot and handsome and moody and so the deal is she will help him save his business if he fakes a relationship with her for the summer and really gives her the full business in terms of emotional, the run, the full gamut. Of course, this is not going to work out as they expect soon. Brick is falling hard and Aspen is rethinking the end of her book.
- [69:26]
B
Ooh. So if you would like this contemporary fake relationship romance set in a small town and with a fan, a found family book of the month might be for you. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Blue Box Press and Jennifer Probst for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [69:50]
A
Let's talk about greed. Okay, you talked about money, and I thought about money. And then I was like, money is an impossible hurdle in romance. Like, everybody wants it. So then I was like, okay, well, then I think what I want it to find is a character who, like, wants something or somebody and is willing to basically do anything to get it when they are told. But I feel like with greed, there has to be. It's different than, like, lust or, like, gluttony. Like, you have to be able to kind of not get it.
- [70:30]
B
Yeah.
- [70:31]
A
Like, it has to be you. Like, you have to. You innately. It feels like to be greedy for something, you have to, like, want it and not be able.
- [70:40]
B
Yeah. So for me, I did something similar, which is, like, you want something the other person does not want to give you.
- [70:47]
A
Oh, perfect. Well, this.
- [70:48]
B
Right. Like, you're really. It's like, transgressing that boundary. Yeah, I think we probably did. Yeah.
- [70:53]
A
So this one is a deep cut that. Honestly, the dark room. I'm so surprise. Has not been discovered by the dark romance girlies. But part of me is, like, it's because it's historical. Right. And so. But I want to talk about Claiming the Courtesan by Anna Campbell, which I think is one. I remember reading it. It came out in 2007. And I remember reading it then and thinking, like, oh, this book is doing a thing no other romance has ever done. And, like, is taking the finger in a way that, like, I'm not sure there are many authors who could pull this off.
- [71:27]
B
Yeah, we've mentioned this one before, but it's for sure been years.
- [71:30]
A
Yeah, I. Yeah, I have. I think. I'm sure I talked about on the Mistresses and Courtesans episode because it's like. It's because I actually think this is one of those situations too, where, like, it's a courtesan I've never read a courtesan like this before. So the Duke of Kylemore is the hero and he is terrible. Like, you should know. You guys like going into this. When I say this is the. This is dark romance, I mean, like, there is like, there is a rape on page in this book. So he. He's terrible. He has. He is wealthy and powerful to the level of which he can have whatever he wants whenever he wants it, and he takes those things. He has the most beautiful courtesan in London as a mistress. Her name is Soraya. And he has been like, he has had her. Like she has. He bought her. He's bought her jewels, he's bought her homes. He's like, she is his. She is kept by him and she won. And like, he. But he is obsessed with her. And he is. Like, he's. So the book begins and he is so obsessed with his mistress that he is, like, on his way to make her his bride. So, like, we begin this book at the place where most courtesy romances end, right?
- [72:57]
B
Yeah.
- [72:58]
A
And he shows up at the. So, like, it begins and we actually do see them together. And then he shows up at her house and she's gone. Not only is she gone, she's taken all the money, all that. She has cashed out everything. She has turned it all into money. And she is in the wind and he can't have her anymore. And this man goes fully feral and it is not attractive. Like, he is terrifying because he is so powerful and so wealthy and has so many resources at his disposal that he is. He has to find her. And, like, he can. So she turns out Verity, her real name, has, like, she needs to save her family from, like, certain, like, horrors. And she has this, like, like whole. She has had this plan for years. Like she was going to take all these men for as much money as she possibly could, pile it all up into cash and be in the wind to save her family. And she takes off like. And does find, like, a safe space, except this man is so powerful and wants her so much and wants her even more now that she's gone. Like, now that he can't have her, right? He is greedy for her and it is not pretty, right? And he finds her and he kidnaps her away to a, like, place to his, like, Scottish manor. And he basically is like, we don't leave here until you are mine, until you agree to marry me. And then he seduces her. And, like, it is not like she resists him. She says no. Like, it is on Page. So, you know, check your. That I. You have been warned. This is not a light historical. This is a dark kind of devastating historical. And like, ultimately it is. He is. In my opinion, he is redeemed. But I think Anna Campbell, this might be, like, one of the. If. If anybody in. If I would. I would say everybody who's thinking about writing Dark Romans should read this book because I think, like, it is one of the few romances where this particular story gets told and, like, I buy it at the end.
- [75:33]
B
So I went, like, a slightly different route in that I, like, pick something similar, but I think it's, like, a little less dramatic.
- [75:41]
A
Yeah.
- [75:42]
B
Because I was really interested. It. I think more like, again, like, you're crossing. It's like boundary crossing. Right. So I actually am going to talk about a Jenny Cruze book we do not talk about as often, which is welcome to Temptation. Because the thing that I found really interesting about this book is. So this is Sophie. This was, first of all, I want to say, like, a really memorable read for me. Like, I remember reading this book and feeling like, oh, this is doing something different as well. Because what's happening is Sophie and her sister are driving into this small Ohio town, and their whole plan is essentially, like, they're coming con artists. They come from a long family of con artists. But Sophie meets the mayor, Finn Tucker, and he is like the, like, you know, kind of town scion. He's like, you know, gonna. He's the mayor. He has been the mayor. There's been four generations of mayor from his family. It's like, you know, he is really tied into the, like, sort of, you know, I don't know, like, the right side of the tracks where Sophie has never been accepted by, like, those kinds of boys. And in fact, there's like a really, like, a memory she kind of has of, like, being used essentially by a guy like Finn in high school who, you know, she thought was, like, really maybe, like, really liked her. And then instead he was just using her because he had a feeling that she would, like, put out for him. So, like, it's really like this mashup of, like, what's. Finn has what Sophie desperately wants, which is like, to fit in, to be accepted, to be, you know, essentially, like, have a place that you've had forever and no one ever questions your ability to be there. So she's, like, greedy for what Finn wants at the same time that he feels entirely stifled by it and yet completely unable to, like, think of a way out of it, you know, what I mean, so, like, he's just kind of stuck and yet she comes along and he, like, can't resist her. But he thinks it's just gonna be this, like, short term thing, right? She's gonna blow in and out of town. And I think there's a way in which, like, they, like. But, like, it's really like, Sophie is like. And I think the other thing I was thinking is she thinks what she wants is money, right? Like, these are con artists. Like, it's about, like, sort of the. You know, not. Like, she's not. Like, they're not gonna run this hard con. There's someone in particular I think they're after in this town. For some reason, he's done some wrong to the family or something. And instead she sets her sights on, like, essentially conquering the town itself. And I think that there is a way in which that was, like, really appealing to me when it came to someone who was like, I've always thought I wanted this thing and I could never have it, but I could have it here, right? And I think that, again, it's like, not really. I don't know this one. It was really hard for me, but I feel like I. I think about this book a lot, like, essentially. And, like, right in the title, right? Welcome to Temptation. Like, everything you thought you wanted is right here and now you can have it. What are you willing to do for it? And I think that to me is, like, really, like, the undergirdings of greed in some way, right? Like, what are you willing to do to get this thing you want? And it turns out that, like, it means for her, like, she feels like, am I gonna have to turn my back on my family and, like, kind of who we are to, like, you know, become, like, leave all that behind? Yeah, it's great. It's a great book. I don't know that it's really gonna, like, ring the same bell, but I was trying to go for, like, the same vibe, but with, like, you know, less. Less trauma. Less trauma. Less trauma, less, you know, ripping the town to shreds. One of my favorite parts of this book, though, is, like, it's really funny, is like, they're playing pool and this is when they realize, like, they can't have each other, right? And there's just, like, a lot of ways in which, like, what they both want would require, like, crossing these boundaries.
- [79:58]
A
Yeah.
- [79:59]
B
Yeah.
- [80:00]
A
Cool. All right, what's the next one you didn't have?
- [80:05]
B
Agreed. Backup.
- [80:06]
A
I don't have a greed backup.
- [80:08]
B
I think a Similar Greed Backup I had was one and done by Cynthia Sachs, where Janella meets this guy named Smoke who has like, a very firm rule for himself, which is like, he only is with a woman for one time, and then he's not. He won't be with her again.
- [80:22]
A
Classic, right?
- [80:23]
B
A classic. And she really is like, yeah, but no, I still want you. And he's just like, but you can't have me. Like, we're done. And she's like, are we, though? And there's like a lot of great scenes.
- [80:35]
A
What if we're not?
- [80:35]
B
What if we're not? But yeah. And I don't know. I really love that book. Like, that's again, one of those books. I sort of was like, man, I love this book. Cynthia Sachs wrote a couple of romances.
- [80:44]
A
Cynthia Sachs is great.
- [80:45]
B
Yeah, she's writing like a lot of alien romances now, so if it's not your jam. But like, she wrote this, like, these great contemporaries. A couple of really great contemporaries. Let's do. Let's save wrath and pride for them because you know we're gonna love those. Let's do Sloth.
- [81:00]
A
Okay, go ahead.
- [81:03]
B
Let me tell you one thing in my little research, which I thought was really interesting about Sloth, which is so Sloth, right, Is like, essentially we think of as like a disinclination to exertion is what is defined. Which made me laugh. But the thing that said that I thought was really interesting is like, unlike the other sins, which are sins of committing, you have to do it. These are sins of omitting. It's what you don't do. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And what I found is I have like a couple, but it's almost always like a very similar profile of a very wealthy man in some way who has been told that is the only thing he is good for. And so therefore he just looks like a real lays about to everybody else. And then one woman who has that same quality. And so one of my. Some of these are like. So like an example I'm not gonna. I'll just like name check these, but then I'll talk about one is Hook, Line and Sinker by Tessa Bailey. He like just has been told he's just like this gorgeous man and so he's kind of lazy. In Kenny from Lady Be Good by Susan Elizabeth Phillips, he was spoiled rotten as a child, but he's a very good golfer. But he is like invested in being lazy.
- [82:24]
A
Susan Elizabeth Phillips actually writes characters who fit so many.
- [82:30]
B
I know, I know. It was hard to, like, not.
- [82:33]
A
And I like, specifically was like, I'm not going to talk about Susan.
- [82:36]
B
Right, right. But I'm just going to mention because this was a hard one where I was like, wait, do I have these? And then an upcoming one. So I'm not going to talk about too much. Doesn't come out until next March. Rosie Dannon has a book called Fan Service where Devin was a TV star. And he has like, the show was canceled. And he has spent a couple of years essentially like resting on the laurels of like, that fame. But also in a way that's kind of pathetic. And he is like, kind of desperate to like, just like, get that show back. Like, he just wants to go back. And he's become a bit of a, like a farce almost because of it. That one doesn't come out until March. So I don't want to spend some time, too much time talking about it. But that was like the first one I think of thought of. But then I was really interested in the fact that those were all men. And so I really wanted to talk instead about Gemma from Don't Let yout Dukes Grow up to Be Scoundrels by Louisa Darling. Interesting, because this is a woman who essentially has. She's like the darling of the social set, right? Her father is a duke and her mother was her. Her mother was essentially the nanny of her older brother. And when the duke's first wife died, he. The duke, like, picks up with this young, beautiful, you know, kind of the governess. Yeah, the governess.
- [84:02]
A
Like there.
- [84:02]
B
Exactly, there is a governess. And then nobody liked them because he had broken all these rules. But they didn't care. Cause they were having a great time. And so she was just raised to just be like the belle of the ball. To like, never take anything seriously. To never do anything that would like, require her to do anything but be like, vivacious and pretty. And she really thinks, like, everything's fine until her father dies place and her older brother inherits everything and comes and essentially kicks them out. And they have one thing left that was not entailed. Right. And it was called Five Mile House, which was like a gift her father gave to her mother. And they haven't touched it since. It was just this lark of a gift.
- [84:47]
A
It's very Schitt's Creek. The vibes are Schitt's Creek here.
- [84:50]
B
I don't know what that means, but okay.
- [84:52]
A
Yeah. And everybody just trust me, John.
- [84:54]
B
Right? I trust you. And so they have to, like, they have no home. But they have this coaching in. And so Gemma and her mom and her sister go to this place and this is when like, Gemma has to kind of realize, like, oh, you know what? Like, they didn't really accept me either. I. I just was rich and pretty. And she realizes that if she does not make a success of this coaching and they will be destitute. And all of a sudden, this young woman who never had to work for a thing is having to work for a thing. And the local Duke, who she doesn't realize is Duke, but everybody else knows but her, is disgusted because this is the very kind of girl hell that he left London to get away from. Yep. Yeah. So I was like, it was interesting to see a girl like a woman, right? Yeah. And really, like, have her reckon. I mean, I think that's the other part, like, really reckon with. Oh, I. I just wasn't paying attention to who I really was there. I. I was ignoring. I was ignoring a lot. Just pretending everything was fine. Yeah.
- [86:08]
A
Yeah. Okay.
- [86:09]
B
I should say everybody. I worked on that book though. But I think that's fine.
- [86:14]
A
It's still great, Jen.
- [86:15]
B
Yes, it is. But it was like a really good answer for this one. But just fair full disclosure. Sure.
- [86:20]
A
I want to talk about Elizabeth Hoyt.
- [86:23]
B
Okay.
- [86:23]
A
Because I actually think Elizabeth Hoyt has, has a, like, really enjoys an idol hero, like. But I'm actually not going to pick the obvious one, which I think is Duke of Sin. I'm going to pick Mickey the River Pirate from Scandalous Desires.
- [86:44]
B
Amazing.
- [86:44]
A
And so here's the tee up for this. So Silence. Okay, so this is like a very puritan family. Like this series. It's a maiden. It's the Maiden Lane series. And like all of the characters in this particular family have very puritan names. Like, Silence is very prim and proper and perfect in every way. She's definitely going to heaven. When we meet Mickey the River Pirate in the earlier books in the series, I think in the first scene that we meet him, if it's not true. True. It's certainly the vibe because in my head it is true. He is like sitting on a pile of gold surrounded by like pillows, like in like bright silks and like, just like a, a team of like women who, who are sex workers around him.
- [87:37]
B
Yeah.
- [87:39]
A
This tee up and he is just like in a country constant state. Like in my mind, Mickey is just like in a constant state of like, being relaxed in all of his, like, wealth. Like, his just. He just has claimed this kingdom of the river. And it is His. His. That is his domain. Silence meets him because there is a. He has a illegitimate child. And of course, like, his River Pirate den is not for babies, but also. It's also, like, he is concerned that if this baby. If people know this baby exists, like, it will bring his, like, River Pirate enemies to him. And so he is dropped off. The baby is dropped off at this orphanage where Silence works. Like, Silence basically runs the. This orphanage. It is really interesting because, like, a year later. So in that moment. So back then. So then when they met a year earlier, there was, like, some. He had stolen something from her, or, like, something had been stolen from her husband, and she had to negotiate with him to get it out. And in the negotiation, like, she basically ruined her marriage. Like, so she is pissed at this man because he has, like, this devil may care attitude, like, nothing matters to him because he came from nothing, and now he has everything. And he just, like. He's just idle and rich, but in, like, a not dookie way. And then. So now Silence has this baby, and he makes an. Oh, no Silence.
- [89:24]
B
He.
- [89:25]
A
He needs this baby, like, back. He realizes the baby's threatened, and so he sends his people to go, like, kidnap the baby from the orphanage and bring the baby back to him. And Silence is like, over my decaying corpse, will you have this small female child in your den, your den of iniquity? Right. And so she, like, storms up the road in her, like. Like, prim gray dress and her bonnet and is like, I want that baby back. And he's like, pass, but why don't you stay with me instead? And then when the dangers passed, we'll discuss it. And so, like, she's like. And he's surrounded by, like, they're like, just women everywhere. And he's like, again, probably not, but, like, in my head, like, laying on something. And then. And she's like. And he's doing it because he's basically like, this lady is never gonna stay, even though he's obsessed with her. P.S.
- [90:28]
B
Sure.
- [90:29]
A
And she's like, okay. And then he's. He's like, what? And then she wreaks havoc, Julie Garwood style through his River Pirate domain, like, for a very full two thirds of this book. And this baby is, like, causing chaos in his, like, den of sin.
- [90:53]
B
Sure.
- [90:54]
A
And, like, there, at one point, he comes back from, like, being out, and there she and the baby are giving the dog like, his. Because there's always a dog. In a. In Elizabeth Hoyt book, he has this, like, mangy dog, and they're Giving this dog, like a bath with his like, very expensive soap. And just like she's just chaosing all through his life and forcing him to really reckon with. Like, you can't be idle. You can't be. Devil may care. You have to care. Like, love requires you to get off your ass and act.
- [91:30]
B
Yeah.
- [91:30]
A
And that feels to me like he really has to overcome this, like, lack of care.
- [91:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one.
- [91:48]
A
Was it me?
- [91:49]
B
Yes. Well, okay. Unless you have another. Do you have another Sloth? Okay. Yeah, they're hard. Not a super attractive quality we're looking to take a look at.
- [92:00]
A
Sloth was hard.
- [92:01]
B
Sloth was hard.
- [92:02]
A
I could do either. Would you have a preference? Bread or Ra.
- [92:05]
B
Pride or. These are the two big ones. These are like the easiest ones. So it's in some way kind of fun to be like, what'd we pick?
- [92:11]
A
One of these was a gimme for me. And one of them was very hard.
- [92:14]
B
All right, let's. Well, which one was really hard? Let's do that one last. Pride was hard. All right, well, let's do wrath then.
- [92:19]
A
So Wrath. But it's so much a gimme that I'm actually not going to be able to. I'm not going to have to say very much, but for me, yeah, Wrath was. Wrath is about revenge, Right. It's about like. Like an unhinged goal of destruction.
- [92:36]
B
Yeah.
- [92:37]
A
Like your will, a willingness to destroy an entire world. That's what it takes to get your revenge, right?
- [92:45]
B
Excessive punishment. Yeah. Yeah.
- [92:48]
A
And so for me, this answer. For a week I tried to think of an answer that was better than this and I couldn't. And so it is a Heart of Blood and Ashes by Millivaen.
- [92:57]
B
Yeah, I. Okay, everybody. I didn't pick this one only because I was like, Sarah will pick it because it's so perfect that I'll just.
- [93:04]
A
It is the answer.
- [93:06]
B
Yeah, it really is.
- [93:07]
A
The reason why it is the answer is because this hero is so unhinged. We did a full deep dive on it. You should go read it and then listen to the deep dive. But this, this hero is so unable to see past his. His desire for revenge for the murder of his parents.
- [93:26]
B
Yeah.
- [93:27]
A
That he cannot even let the woman he loves speak his parents name.
- [93:34]
B
Yeah.
- [93:35]
A
And it is unreal. Like, it is so great. And when he finally figures out what he has done, he is destroyed by it.
- [93:47]
B
Yeah.
- [93:48]
A
No, that also feels like it is the essential. Like, that is an essential piece of the Wrath romance novel puzzle.
- [93:55]
B
Yes. Well, and so these were like the things in my little notes that I was like. Because again, I was the same way. I was like, well, it's a Hard Blooded Ashes, right? Is one Is like the best wrath books are. It's like when that anger and rage is directed against an innocent. Right. It's not just vengeance. I deserve it. But like, you'll destroy the town. Right?
- [94:15]
A
Like it doesn't matter.
- [94:17]
B
Yeah. Because in this case, like, it's not her fault. Right. But also I. I wrote down this quote from someone named Henry Edward Manning, which is angry people are slaves to themselves.
- [94:27]
A
And I was like, oh, yeah, right.
- [94:29]
B
And that to me was like, really good for wrath. Okay, so I have an answer that actually dovetails onto like the Molly O'Keefe conversation we had, which is book four of that series is called, wait for it, and it's Blake and Tiffany's book. And if you'll remember, at the end of book two, Tiffany, he essentially buys off Tiffany to stay away from his mother. Cause he realizes that Phil, his brother, is Tiffany's husband and the mother to these kids. So he is keeping her and these children from their grandmother. Like, right, From a grandmother. And she. He essentially is like gonna pay her off. He offers her this check for $10,000 and she's like, well, now it's gonna be 15. And then he says something shitty and she tears it up and she's like, and now it's 20. But in this book, now it's like a few years later and, you know, $20,000 is just not going to go that far when it comes to keeping a family afloat. And she has moved out of the trailer park and essentially found an apartment. But what happens is Phil is not leaving them alone either because he has done nothing to protect her from Phil. Right? All he's done is cut her off from Phil's family, from his family. And so he. So what happens is like, Phil has come to this apartment and like, completely destroyed it. So she loses. She gets evicted and loses her security deposit, and now she's in a shittier apartment, right? And then he. Phil comes to that one. And you know, there's this point where he's like. And. And Blake essentially turns up and he realizes that he has done wrong. Right? But at this point, she is like, I would lay down in traffic before I would take a thing from you. Like, you are worse than your brother.
- [96:24]
A
Yeah, you ruined it, right? You walked away.
- [96:28]
B
You walked away. And. And yet she has these three kids, right? And there's this great Scene where Phil has, like, essentially, like, graffitied all over the apartment with, like, the kid, like, her lipstick or the kid's, like, finger paints or something. And he's just like, you shouldn't go in there. It's so upsetting. Like, he can't believe what she has essentially lived with. And she just looks at him like, that's nothing. Like, are you fucking kidding me? That's nothing. What I put up with from this brother of yours and what you have essentially forced me to live with. And so to me, it's like, a really good example of wrath. Because, first of all, it cooked for a while, right? Like, this is what he did to her in book two, and here it is book four. And the way that essentially he figures out what's going on is Dylan and Annie are like, have, like, a Christmas party. And in a fit of desperation, Tiffany sort of shows up to Annie, ask Annie for help, because she knows that Annie will help her. And this is how essentially, it gets back on Blake's radar that, like, this woman and her kids are still around and they are desperate, and I am actually kind of the one who did it to her. And not. I mean, obviously Phil is the abusive husband, but, like, he does not help her when he was given the chance. And so he has to really wrestle with, like, his part in isolating her, in making her life worse and not offering her any kind of help. And I think that it's, like, a really good example of, again, like, that sense of, like, I was so convinced that she was bad, wrong, looking to take me and my mother for a ride, and then he has to really be like, oh, shit.
- [98:13]
A
Mm.
- [98:14]
B
Oops.
- [98:16]
A
Love it. Love it.
- [98:20]
B
All right, I have one more raft. But he, like, she deserves it. And it's in Nero by S.J. tilly. She doesn't deserve it. He, like, Peyton, essentially. He discovers that Peyton's stepfather when she was younger was abusive, was, like, looking to essentially, like, Prof. Like, turn her into a sex worker for his friends, and he goes and he basically kills the guy. But he's not an innocent. You know what I mean? He, like, takes wrath. But it was like, I was like, like, does this count? Because that guy kind of deserved it. So.
- [98:50]
A
Yeah.
- [98:51]
B
But it's great.
- [98:55]
A
All right, final one. Pride. Jen, which.
- [98:58]
B
The worst one. Sarah, you know what C.S. lewis said about pride? Ooh.
- [99:02]
A
Tell me. I think C.S. lewis says a lot of smart things about things. Yeah.
- [99:05]
B
The devil's most essential trait, the anti God state, where the ego and self is direct, directly opposed to God all right. I was like, dang, you had a hard one time with this one.
- [99:21]
A
I did have a hard time with this one and I think it was because I think it was twofold.
- [99:25]
B
Yeah.
- [99:25]
A
I was looking for a hero who was very. A character rather who was very prideful.
- [99:31]
B
Yeah.
- [99:32]
A
And there are authors who I like what I. Okay. What I was really looking for was the arrogant hero who is pulled down off his pedestal, who's like so certain that he is perfect in every way. And the moment the hero like, and then the heroine just like destroys him. Right. And so like the logical place for me you to go here is like dukes in romance. In Dukes. Like the real person, the real hero, the prototypical pride hero is Lothari there.
- [100:08]
B
Yeah.
- [100:09]
A
Right. Like just like above it all, arrogant over everything. Just like a God among mortals and Im in his case immortals. But like the problem is, is I like that hero so much. I know that's love that I have talked about them. All right. And then I was like, well, and also like I said, Susan Elizabeth Phillips. Right. Like, like Ain't She Sweet is a perfect example of a heroine who is so proud she will not break. And like that's the other half of it. The heroine who is so proud she won't break. But then that doesn't feel sinful. That feels like this woman deserves to be like put on a pedestal.
- [100:52]
B
Right.
- [100:52]
A
Like we should elect for president.
- [100:55]
B
So the.
- [100:55]
A
I think for me it was just very difficult to come up with what like what I really wanted.
- [101:04]
B
Yeah.
- [101:05]
A
To say about pride. So what I netted out at was to. So I have, I have the book I chose and then I have a runner up that is so old school and like on the reread, like not a great. Doesn't quite hit the right way.
- [101:24]
B
Yeah.
- [101:24]
A
But I'll, I'll talk about it. Anyway, so the. But the pick that I made was Anne Mallory's the Bride Price. Okay. Anne sadly does not write historicals anymore and that is a great sadness to all of us who loved her. And it will be a great sadness to you when you have read this book and then immediately read all the other eight books and then you're like, what happened? Sebastian, A Sebastian so destined to be great is the illegitimate son of a duke. And he has been planning a revenge for like the way that the world treated his mother for his whole life. And there is a competition that the king sets up where the winner will receive an immense fortune, a new title, sponsorship from the king and a well born bride. I mean lots a package Deal everything that he needs to reclaim his mother's stolen, like, identity, her reputation, her land. The lands that she. That are a part of this title are the lands that were hers and also get, like, the power that he wants. Right. So there's a lot of. So I. As. As we were sort of coming toward pride, I was thinking, like, oh, this is proof that it. It's the one to rule them all. Because, like, all of the stuff is, like, into this, right? Like, this is all very greed and lot. Like, like, so then he meets the heroine who is supposed to be. She is the sister or the cousin. She's related in some way to the wife who will be attached to him. And she is like, absolutely not. And so she sets out to sabotage his. The whole competition to make sure that he won't win. And. And her. I think, like, this is one of those situations where, like, both characters hold an immense amount of pride and it. Sir, it miserves them both. Like, she thinks that she is smart enough, savvy enough, clever enough, and also, like. Like, powerful. Not powerful enough, but, like, it is. It's smart. It's smart for her. Like, she thinks she is all of these things and able to, like, undercut him and that is. Is absolutely putting her in harm's way because he will not stand for it. And he is like, there is no one as good as me for this. And so the two of them together are so prideful that the entire plan, both of their plans, just, like, start to crumble because they stand in their own way.
- [104:33]
B
Yeah.
- [104:33]
A
And it's. It's also like, Anne's books are so great. The writing is so strong, the characters are so perfect. Like, everything about an Anne Mallory book just works. And also she just does historical slightly different than everyone else. And I can't really describe it except to say, like, she is a person who will linger on these kind of flaws in a real. Like, she shines a light on the flaw of the character.
- [105:05]
B
Yeah.
- [105:06]
A
Not on the good.
- [105:08]
B
Yeah. Well, perfect for the seven sentence, right?
- [105:11]
A
It works out great. Yeah. Yeah.
- [105:15]
B
Okay, so do you want to mention your other one or.
- [105:19]
A
My other one is Judith McNaught's double standards, which I think we spoke about not long ago. Set in the 80s. She's a secretary, he's her boss. But, like, she's been asked to. Who? She's basically been sent in to do a little corporate espionage by her uncle she doesn't really like. And the uncle, like, kind of says, like, she. In order to be responsible to her family, she has to do something that is, like, bad, is illegal, and, like, unethical. And she doesn't do it. But she provides the documents to her uncle and says, like, and doesn't tell the uncle that she hasn't done it. And the hero believes that she has done this thing. That she has, like, done this unethical thing and betrayed him for her family. There's also. It's McNaught. So, like, there's, like, an illegitimate child involved. Like, there's all sorts of, like, stuff on the family level that pits the hero and the uncle against each other. And she is so proud.
- [106:24]
B
Yeah.
- [106:25]
A
That she refuses to admit. Like, she refuses to tell him the truth because she's, like, this man. Like, he should know better.
- [106:33]
B
Yeah.
- [106:33]
A
So she's, like, cast out into the cold.
- [106:35]
B
Like, love it. I know. It's a good one.
- [106:38]
A
Like, it's. It's terrible. Like, what happens is terrible. The manager of the Italian restaurant refuses to serve him forever. Like, it's just, like, a whole thing.
- [106:47]
B
Yeah. Right. Yeah.
- [106:49]
A
But it's. It's. It's her pride again, though. I didn't pick it because of one Judith McNaught, but also because, for me, like. Like I said, like a heroine who refuses to. Who refuses to tell the truth because she is too proud.
- [107:09]
B
Yeah.
- [107:09]
A
Is a different. That's not a sin. That's a virtue.
- [107:13]
B
You're like, well done. Yeah, no, totally. Okay. So I also kind of had two for this one. I have been. I really. I think the kind of. I'll talk about them in a different order. Like, kind of. My secondary one was Flowers from the Storm, which we've talked about, because Christian essentially has the stroke and ends up with, like, Maddie, who's a Quaker, and she's basically like, yeah, you gotta knock all this shit out. And he's like, okay, I guess I do. But then in order at the end to, like, to, like, win, he actually has to, like, take back the mantle of his title and defend her. And I think, like, the way pride works in that book for both of them is just, like, really fascinating. But we also have talked about it so long that I was like, well, I don't want to, like, do that. So instead, I'm going to talk about the new Julianne Long, which came out yesterday called the Beast Takes a Bride. I've mentioned this, like, briefly, but. But, like, I'm gonna really talk about it today. And in this book, we have Magnus, who started out as an orphan, but has risen to be, like, one of the most feared. Like, Military men in England. He goes places and people recognize him. Magic. Yes. Right.
- [108:27]
A
Name is Destiny.
- [108:28]
B
That's right. And so he is now, like. Right. So what happens is he becomes this colonel he, like, saved, you know, becomes this, like, war hero, essentially. And what happens is five years earlier, and we don't know this is the beginning. The beginning of the book is that he comes and, like, breaks her out of Newgate, essentially, and we have no idea why their marriage essentially has broken up. And it turns out that five years earlier, it was, like, at a house party. And he. Even though he is a war hero, he doesn't, like, feel that he, like, deserves nice things because he is a man. And he sees Alexandra and realizes that her family is in real financial straits. And so he essentially offers for her, knowing that, like, the money that he is giving the family means that this is, like, a done deal. And he never really thinks all that hard about how she's gonna feel about that, because she's, like, a good English girl, and her job is to, you know, the aristocracy, and her job is to, you know, kind of to do this. But what happens is the night after, or like, the night before their wedding, essentially, he sees her with this, like, boy that she had had, like, sort of a not even affair with, right? Like this very sweet, innocent, you know, kind of like, I like this boy next door feeling. And this young man kisses her, and he watches from the shadows. And this is what he doesn't realize is this was the first and last kiss they ever had. But he sees her kiss him back. Like, he. And he essentially, at that moment is, like, his pride at the fact that this woman, who he essentially bought, having had some feelings for some other young man.
- [110:22]
A
Yeah.
- [110:23]
B
Sends him essentially off. So he, like, takes her to London, deposits her in the house. He doesn't ever talk to her about why. Right. He doesn't talk to her at all about why he did this. And then he just goes back to war. And so for five years, she has been living in his home, essentially. Right? Like, kind of like, what happened? And now he's back. He saved her from Newgate, and what he tells her is, well, I'm selling the house and I'm sending you to America, and you don't have any say in it. And, Sarah, all of this is because of his hurt feelings and his pride from five years ago, which he still has no idea about. And so they have to, like, of course, because, you know, for romance reasons, like, like, put on a good show for people in the. You know, he's gonna get this courtesy title. But, like, there can't be any hint of scandal. And she's just been in jail, so they have to really, like, act up for everybody. And in doing this, of course, they really get to know each other for the first time. And he has to admit, essentially the reason I fucking left you was cause I saw you kissing that boy. And she's like, are you fucking kidding me?
- [111:34]
A
Amazing.
- [111:35]
B
It is so good. And I like, I honestly, this book is, I think in terms of like, this man is like, I had my pride and I just literally destroyed, like lost these years with her because of it. And that's what I like is him realizing what a dummy he was. It is great. It's the Beast Takes a Bride by Julie M. Long. It just literally came out yesterday. You can buy it right now and have a great time.
- [112:01]
A
She's great.
- [112:02]
B
She is great.
- [112:03]
A
She's really, really great.
- [112:04]
B
Yeah.
- [112:06]
A
And doesn't get enough credit, I think. So.
- [112:10]
B
It's awesome.
- [112:11]
A
Anyway, well, we did the job and as you, an absolute behemoth of an episode.
- [112:19]
B
Well, listen, it's our anniversary and we wanted everyone to have a nice time.
- [112:22]
A
It is. And I hope that people have. Have filled their TBR with things like. On a personal note, I just want to say thank you to everybody for seven years of this weird thing that we said we would try one time. And I want to thank you, my friend. This has been really fun and your. Your friendship over the years, you have become so enormously important to me over the years. And I just. I love you and I love everybody who listens to the podcast and I'm so grateful for every. All of it.
- [112:59]
B
It. I feel the exact same way. And I just want to say, I just really love the fact that, like, you're all on this ride with us. There's not 300 of you anymore. But we are legion and we love romance. And the fact that romance is here for us is like the best feeling. But thank you for being my friend.
- [113:18]
A
I am Sarah McLean. I am here with my friend Jen Procop. We have been together for seven years. We are Faded Mates. You can find us every Wednesday on your podcasting app wherever you listen to podcasts or you can listen to us on fatedmates.net also on faded mates.net there are some great show notes. We'll have some info. We'll have information. Jem will put together all sorts of information. It'll basically be like a crib of Wikipedia and additional items on the podcast episode this week, week. You can also find us on all of the social media. All the places that you find people on social media. We are either faded mates or faded mates pod in all of those places. We are trying very hard to get Kamala Harris into office on November 5th. If you would like to join us on this final push, we really need more bodies. All gas, no breaks. You want to leave it all on the field so that whatever happens, you know you did the best you could. You can join us to Phone bank at on Saturdays from 1 to 3pm we are phone banking this weekend and next weekend, Both Saturdays with Indivisible.org you can sign up to join us at Fated Mates.net fadedstate states and if phone banking gives you the heebie jeebies and you have a little extra money to throw this week toward the States Project to help secure Pennsylvania State Legislature and make sure that they certify the election, you can do that by giving to the Fated States Giving Circle at the state's project. You can learn more at Fated States. No, you can learn more@fatedmates.net Giving Circle Again, all these notes are in. All these links are in show notes. You can also, if you just love talking about romance and like two hours this week isn't enough, join us on the Patreon. You get an extra episode every month of just banter and chatter between you and Jen. But you also have access to the discord where a thousand other Romance readers and Faded Mates listeners are talking about romance literally all day, all week, all night, all year. So join us there. Learn more@fatedmates.net Patreon Again, all these links are in Show Notes. We love you. Happy Anniversary. Thanks to the 300 of you who were with us at the beginning. Thanks to the many, many more of you who are with us now. And here's to another seven.