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Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
S07.17: Lionhearted Virility: The Proposition by Judith Ivory
01:44:06
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- [00:00]
Jennifer Prokop
Little romance night at my mom for just a couple of days, and we ended up watching When Harry Met Sally one night.
- [00:05]
Sarah MacLean
Has he seen it before? He'd never seen it. You saw two movies then with him. Oh, tell everybody.
- [00:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, so we watched that and Sleepless in Seattle.
- [00:14]
Sarah MacLean
Wait, I thought you watched Moonstruck too.
- [00:17]
Jennifer Prokop
That we watched the week before. Three classics he liked of them. He liked When Harry Met Sally the best. And Moonstruck. Second, Sleepless Seattle I think was.
- [00:25]
Sarah MacLean
I watched it twice by myself this season.
- [00:28]
Jennifer Prokop
It's Johnny Camare. So the thing that was amazing, though, is I haven't seen it in its entirety. When Harry Met Sally, also, for a solid decade, at least. Wow. And it was really fun. Afterwards, I sent Little Romance, like, the funniest TikTok about it, and it's a young black woman who's basically like, Caucasians. This is your culture.
- [00:59]
Sarah MacLean
And it is.
- [01:00]
Jennifer Prokop
And it is. And the thing that I think is just is really amazing about it is, of course, when I saw When Harry Met Sally when I was, you know, in high school, I didn't realize that it was my culture.
- [01:12]
Sarah MacLean
No.
- [01:12]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. And so, anyway, it was really fun to watch. Again, Nora Ephron just writes the funniest fucking dialogue. Right. Terrific. So, like, everything about it is just so sharp. And so it was just really fun. And I can't remember which part exactly, we were, like, cracking up at, but, like, the whole thing is just so. The entire thing, from top to bottom is funny. Also, of course, as Chicagoans, there's, like, a really funny part at the beginning where they're at the University of Chicago, which is in my neighborhood, and then they're, like, driving to New York, and they end up, like, driving past the city of Chicago and through the city of Chicago, which is the wrong direction. Yeah.
- [01:53]
Sarah MacLean
They're going in instead of out.
- [01:54]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [01:54]
Sarah MacLean
But that's okay. When Harry Met Sally is my favorite movie of all time. Like, I have seen it. I have not gone longer than six months of. It is a. It is a movie when I am alone in my house, which feels more and more rare these days. But, like, when I'm alone in my house, like, it is a movie that I will put on for 20 minutes while I'm, like, cleaning, you know, tidying, or, like, I'll have it in, like, whatever. But so. And the new. Listen, it's a love letter. It is part of why I think I was always like, I'm moving to New York. Like, it is a love letter to New York City. There is so much about it that I. That is about. That is so New York, the New York of it all. But also I, you know, my best friend from college, Megan, and I, like, she also really loved it because it is our culture. And so when she turned, like, 25, she lived here in the city. And we did, like, a day of, like, where we just, like, went to every place, which was so much fun, you know, And.
- [02:57]
Jennifer Prokop
And it's, like, iconic.
- [02:59]
Sarah MacLean
When you go into Katz's Deli, which is where she fakes the orgasm, there is a sign, like, hanging from the ceiling, pointing down at the table, and it says, here is where Harry and Sally had lunch. Like, it's very cute. But I do want to just say that for my birthday, which was a couple of weeks ago, Eric bought me Nora Ephron at the movies, which is a, like, really beautiful coffee table style book about. So Nora Ephron is fucking genius. Like, she. She wrote When Harry met Sally. She wrote Sleepless in Seattle. She wrote you've got Mail. Like, she is, you know, amazing. She's written a bunch of. She wrote a bunch of memoirs. She's terrific in a lot of ways. And this book, it's a coffee table book. So initially, at first glance, you're like, oh, this is just gonna be, like, pictures of movie stuff, like stills. But what it really is about is both, like, this, the rom com, and how she made the rom com into a legitimate art form. And also about feminism in Hollywood because she was so instrumental in bringing the female point of view to Hollywood. So I feel like, listen, if you are out there and you too, love and win, Harry met Sally, or you are interested in the rom com as a concept or feminism in Hollywood. This is the book for. We'll put it in show notes. It's called Nora Ephron at the Movies.
- [04:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Very cool.
- [04:21]
Sarah MacLean
Anyway, welcome, everyone, to Fated Mates. I'm Sarah Maclean. I read romance novels and I write them.
- [04:28]
Jennifer Prokop
And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And it's 2025.
- [04:34]
Sarah MacLean
2025.
- [04:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, this is why I brought this up. Because, you know, she's at the point where she's like, and I'm gonna be 40.
- [04:42]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, no. It's heartbreaking, that scene for me. Yeah.
- [04:45]
Jennifer Prokop
I was like, God, I saw this. So the first time I saw this, she. This someday.
- [04:51]
Sarah MacLean
It's eight years.
- [04:53]
Jennifer Prokop
I know. And I just was like, I saw that so far ahead of 40 and now.
- [04:58]
Sarah MacLean
Weird. When you're old enough to be Sally's mom.
- [05:02]
Jennifer Prokop
Can't even talk about it, honestly.
- [05:04]
Sarah MacLean
No, My big sadness every time I watch that movie is the Carrie Fisher and Bruno Kirby of it all, which is like, they are both geniuses and lost to us.
- [05:13]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [05:14]
Sarah MacLean
Anyway. Yeah. So when Harry met Sally, you watched When Harry met Sally, you watched Moonstruck, and you watched Sleepless in Seattle.
- [05:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Started while you were sleeping. And one of the things I forgot. Yeah, but one of the things I forgot, and I was this way too, as a kid, is like, although he's not really a kid anymore, little romance cannot stand watching something where someone is headed for, like, being embarrassed in front of everyone. So. Right. The entire plot of while you were sleeping, like, he was like, oh, my God, what is she doing? Right.
- [05:48]
Sarah MacLean
But then.
- [05:48]
Jennifer Prokop
So we started that it was a false start. And then we watched Moonstruck the next night, and he looked at me very quickly and he was like, wait, is this another movie about her falling in love with the brother? And I was like, it is. I don't think I had actually thought about them in this way together.
- [06:05]
Sarah MacLean
We held our button this season.
- [06:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. And then we also started Almost Famous, which is a movie I love. And we just like, sort of both fell asleep. But, like, we got through the scene where he, you know, the lead singer is Russell, I think his name is, like, drunk at the party, like, completely on drugs. And, like, jumps off the pool. And then they sing Tiny Dancer in the bus. And I was like, you've seen everything you need to. It's fine.
- [06:33]
Sarah MacLean
Wait, I can't remember if I said this on the podcast or not, but we watched my daughter. I felt at 11 was old enough for Bridget Jones. So we watched Bridget Jones this year and it was a big hit.
- [06:45]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [06:46]
Sarah MacLean
So. And, like, what was very funny is if you've ever been around a kind of 10, 11 year old, they do a lot of, like, silent thinking.
- [06:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yeah.
- [06:57]
Sarah MacLean
But it's very loud. Like, you sort of know their thinking. So we were walking somewhere over the last couple of weeks, and she was silent and I knew she was thinking. And you just sort of sit through it and wait, like, you know something's coming. And she said, mom, you know what the funniest part of Bridget Jones is? And I said, tell me. And she said, it's when her and the guy who she. The terrible. The guy she works with. And I was like, daniel? She says, yes. I said. And she goes, it's when they're about to have sex and he finds out she's wearing those, like, big, weird underwear because she's wearing.
- [07:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Basically, like.
- [07:37]
Sarah MacLean
And it's so Funny because that scene happened and I was like, oh. Like, this is maybe like not super duper appropriate for an 11 year old, but like, it cuts away.
- [07:46]
Jennifer Prokop
It's. Yeah, right.
- [07:47]
Sarah MacLean
It's obvious that they're gonna have sex, but like, it's not anything graphic. And then I was like, ironic that that is that she totally got the humor of that.
- [07:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [07:57]
Sarah MacLean
And like remembered everyone. He's like, oh, no, let me have a look. I happen to be wearing something very similar myself. It's a very hilarious line. And she like, got it and really. And I was like, oh. Oh, this is gonna be great.
- [08:10]
Jennifer Prokop
The other thing that's really funny about these movies is like both Sleepless in Seattle, Edward Harry Met Sally feature a Rolodex.
- [08:19]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, yeah, Marie's Rolodex out at lunch.
- [08:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. But we'd watched Sleepless in Seattle first. And he was like, what is that? And I was like. And it took a long time for me to explain it. And then I had to like bring up an image where like you could see like that like someone had written the thing on the card now. And he was like, oh. And then when she brings it out and she's like, married, like, you know, like. But it was like a lot of. I mean, that's the other part too. Just like describing the.
- [08:50]
Sarah MacLean
Well, all the answer machine bits.
- [08:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, of course.
- [08:53]
Sarah MacLean
In. Yeah, yeah.
- [08:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Like the technology or the lack of technology.
- [08:59]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. People in Seattle of it all with the tickets and the radios and the like.
- [09:02]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. You're like, what's happening?
- [09:03]
Sarah MacLean
Call in radio. We don't have that. I wish we did. You guys. What I wouldn't do for a way to do a call in episode of Mates where you just dial in, which I know you can probably like. We could just have a zoom and people could come. But like, it would be more fun if it was like. Longtime listener, first time caller, Dr. Marsha Fieldstone.
- [09:26]
Jennifer Prokop
So, Sarah, why don't you. We're talking about the Proposition by Judith Ivory this week. A book that I sometimes everybody. When you've been reading romance for a really long time, as I have, sometimes you're like, I did not read that. And then you pick it up and you read it and you're like, yeah, I read that. I read that 25 years ago and I just didn't remember or whatever.
- [09:47]
Sarah MacLean
Did you read it?
- [09:48]
Jennifer Prokop
No, I did not have that experience when I read this book. I was like, no, I do not. I did not read this.
- [09:53]
Sarah MacLean
I should say there's also the other option which I had With, With Jenny Cruz's Bet Me, which was. I read that and then I read it and I was like, I have not read this book.
- [10:02]
Jennifer Prokop
Sure. I mean, that's how it goes.
- [10:03]
Sarah MacLean
Romance is like this.
- [10:05]
Jennifer Prokop
The yin and yang of the romance reader right there. But no, I did not have that experience. So, Sarah, this book is from. Was it. I looked it up. It was 1999 or 2000.
- [10:17]
Sarah MacLean
So I know it was later than I thought. And it's later. It continues to be later than I thought. Like, this book feels older than it is.
- [10:26]
Jennifer Prokop
So talk to us about. Since you're, you know, this is like your choice.
- [10:30]
Sarah MacLean
So, like, this is my pick.
- [10:31]
Jennifer Prokop
This is my pick. Yeah. Tell us.
- [10:32]
Sarah MacLean
Because tell us about that. There are a few things going on here in the world. Maybe you've noticed everybody, that everybody's talking about historical romance. Like, it's fricking dead.
- [10:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [10:41]
Sarah MacLean
And it's not. And we have an episode coming soon. I'm not gonna get super duper into it, but it felt really important to me that like, and we picked this read along months ago because we've sort of been lax on read alongs. But it felt really important to me when we did a couple months ago that like, we picked a, like strong historical as our next read along. And that's tricky. It's not tricky. There are lots of strong historicals. But like, it's tricky finding one that like, you think there will be a lot to say, like an hour's worth of like, let's talk about it. And we've never talked about Judith Ivory. I would really love for her to be a trailblazer interview because I think she has a lot. She's really interesting because I think she's one of these people who, when you talk to long time historical readers, everybody has a Judith Ivory book that really hits for them. And there are all different ones. There's Beast and there's Black Silk and there are all these kind of. I, I think like, once you've read a Judith Ivory book, if it hits you, then like, read lots of them. And like, I think if you, if you read the Proposition and you loved it, I recommend going to Beast and Black Silk and others. But she's somebody who is like pretty unsung. Like, she just, you don't hear. She's not said in the same way as like all the other J names. She's not like. And now I'm realizing, like, maybe the reason why is because she actually like post date for me in my head, she lives with those names.
- [12:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Right, but maybe she's after.
- [12:12]
Sarah MacLean
Right, but she post dates them. And so she came through with those, like 90s era, late 90s era historical people. She came through with Lisa Clippis and Julia Quinn and Eloisa James and Stephanie Lawrence. And like, it was just this like time when the books were just dominating the historical. There were like this handful of truly dominating historical names. And I wonder if she just sort of like got swept up in that.
- [12:42]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, I also think it has to do with. I hate to say with like, longevity. Right. So she has five books essentially from 1998 to 2002. And then there's a re issue.
- [12:57]
Sarah MacLean
She has a different name.
- [12:59]
Jennifer Prokop
She has a different name. Right. So that's like the Judith Ivory and then Judy Cuevas is her other name. Is that correct?
- [13:05]
Sarah MacLean
Yes.
- [13:07]
Jennifer Prokop
So it. I also feel like, look, the truth is sometimes. Yep.
- [13:13]
Sarah MacLean
People get. People get lost.
- [13:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Right. Like, you know, it's just, you're. Yeah. Like you're. You just had like a powerhouse, five or six books. And unless people really remember them, it's very easy for them. You know what I mean? Like, romance is. There is a lot of bodies on that road.
- [13:35]
Sarah MacLean
Yep.
- [13:36]
Jennifer Prokop
I don't know how else to say it right now.
- [13:38]
Sarah MacLean
A thousand percent. And like, there are a number of. I mean, how many times do we. Do you. And I sit around and go like.
- [13:45]
Jennifer Prokop
Hey, do you remember?
- [13:46]
Sarah MacLean
Like, fill in the blank and like, something will click. So here's the deal though. For me, the proposition is for a long time I would have said, like, do you remember the proposition? Not do you remember Judith Ivory? Right. Like, so the proposition was really fascinating to me. First of all, it's a Pygmalion retelling. It's My Fair lady retelling. It's a Trading Spaces retelling.
- [14:12]
Jennifer Prokop
That for me was the one where I was like, wait, is this very much like trading.
- [14:16]
Sarah MacLean
It's a little Trading Places. There's like. Or Trading Places. Sorry, not Trading Spaces. So the. I love a Pygmalion story. I think we can talk and I expect that we will get into the sort of class consciousness of it all. I think it really only works now in with this gender flop. Like, I think it's trickier when it's.
- [14:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [14:39]
Sarah MacLean
You know, when it's like My Fair lady style. But so there was that. Right. There was just sort of a. I really love it. And I think this is a. This is so much a true retelling of Pygmalion. Like a. A real Pygmalion Retelling of Pygmalion's in the book, like.
- [14:55]
Jennifer Prokop
Right, yes, right. She's telling, very self aware, that it is. That's what it is.
- [14:59]
Sarah MacLean
Exactly. Which is very cool. Um, and then I. But I think for me, what I have always said is, do you remember the one with the rat catcher? Right. That's how this book lives in my mind. And it lives in my mind that way. Because a rat catcher as a hero feels impossible. Like, it feels like a mountain I could not climb as a writer. And so we're not talking about Derek Craven. Like, so, okay, in. We talk a lot about how like Derek Craven and Lisa Klepas are.
- [15:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Which was 94.
- [15:39]
Sarah MacLean
Four, right. So in 1994, Lisa writes dreaming of youf. And then she writes like, this is within the con. So she writes Dreaming of youf. She then writes all the Bow Street Runners books. Like, and then she writes a bunch of. Of heroes. She gets like kind of deep into these kind of heroic hero. These heroes who are blue collar and pull themselves up out of the gutter. Right. Derek Craven is kind of the primordial, like the first of his name in that. In that way. Because he was literally born in a drain pipe. The problem is Derek. And listen, there is no problem with Derek. But Derek, somewhere between being born in a drain pipe and meeting Sarah on page one of dreaming of you, pulls himself out of the.
- [16:31]
Jennifer Prokop
He's done it all, all that work on his own already, right? Yeah.
- [16:35]
Sarah MacLean
What happens here in the proposition is Mick is in the drain pipe still. And so, I mean, he's. He makes enough money to send his money home to his family. Like we're going to get into all of it, but there is a sort of sense that this is a man who is in his 30s or he is 30 years old and he is a rat catcher in London in the 1890s. And this is bananas, like, as a concept, right? Because this is not. But it is also like heroes should be kings. And no one is a king. Like Mick is a king.
- [17:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [17:15]
Sarah MacLean
And it's really fascinating as a study of heroes. But before we get into it, and I know you have something to say, but I want to say that I spoke to somebody in publishing who was involved in publishing this book, and she told me that when they wrote the COVID copy for it, they deliberately left out his job because they couldn't sell it. They knew they wouldn't be able to sell it with. And like, this is for everybody to know. Like, there are a lot of times that you leave things out of COVID copy. I have like, I have seen widow books have. Have widowhood written out a cover copy. Like there are things that like you, you're making cereal box, right? When you write cover copy or you.
- [18:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Design, especially in 1999, there's no good reads. There's only what? There's only words no one will ever know.
- [18:08]
Sarah MacLean
He's a rat catcher.
- [18:09]
Jennifer Prokop
And what you're right reading on the back of the book in Barnes and no in the borders. Right.
- [18:15]
Sarah MacLean
So anyway, what, what were you going to say about Mick?
- [18:18]
Jennifer Prokop
Here's the. I. Here's what I was just going to say, like kind of broadly, one of the things that was a very. What. One of the things that's very interesting to do is read a 25 year old historical romance and realize like it really, I think helps explain our like ongoing thesis, which is historical romance is not historical fiction. It tells you way more about the time it was written than it does about the setting. Right. Because it. And so in, in some ways, right, like what felt like some of the, like the politics of this book, I'll say kind of felt dated or it felt like there were things that I kind of expected or knew would happen, that if the book would be. Was being written today, it would not have to happen that way. Right. And so like, for example, I mean, I think we'll talk about like sex. I think that's part of it. But I think, I think their interaction between them. But I also think like the ending, right, like where. How it ends, where Mick ends up. I don't think it would have had to have ended that way if it was written today. Right. Like, yeah.
- [19:36]
Sarah MacLean
Yes, I get it.
- [19:38]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Does that make sense? And so I think like that's one of the other things is it's kind of like when we, you know, like what's the work of historical romance versus contemporary romance, right. Like you're still processing. Romance is always processing now. Like I really believe that, right. Historical romance just lets you. Lets the author do that at a little bit more of a remove. And I think one of the things that's really interesting to me, I was really interested in the fact that it was written in Victorian right, in the 1890s versus like pure regency. And I was like, here is a book that to me, it was published in December of 1999. It is really thinking about like the, to me it felt like very clear. It was processing like our anxiety and angst about entering into a new century in a way, right. Like sort of like, like what will. What will be the case? How will the rules change? What will society be like? Right. And I felt like it was interesting to me that that feels like a part of the time of the book even. And that felt purposeful. Right. Like, it wasn't. It's not Gilded Age. Right. It's Victorian, but in a very like, also like, really specific and kind of funny way. Like, Right. The mention of like, there's like a whole thing where they're talking about, like, Victorian, Victoria's the Victorian era and how repressive it was. And yet Victoria had all these children and. Right. Like, all of the ways in which I found myself really interested in that, I think is, I don't know, just something. I think we'll talk more about historicals, like, later at the end of the month. But, like, that to me was also just like, really fascinating to have the setting be not the Regency. And I was like, well, why. Why this period of time?
- [21:39]
Sarah MacLean
I mean, I think there are a few reasons for that outside of all this. And that is. I don't know where do I. Where I want to begin, But I. But there is the evolution of Winnie.
- [21:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yeah.
- [21:53]
Sarah MacLean
Is so Victorian in like, you couldn't set it in the Regency and show it quite the way she does. Like, the way Winnie comes, I don't want to say undone because it feels like she doesn't come undone. She sort of just like knits herself. She becomes a completely different person by the end of the book.
- [22:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [22:17]
Sarah MacLean
And like there is. And that evolution is not a Regency evolution.
- [22:23]
Jennifer Prokop
This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by A.E. merriweather, author of Marin in the Moonlight.
- [22:31]
Sarah MacLean
So Maren has come from a very high achieving family that disapproves of her and everything that she loves. And so she is just done with it. So she heads off to her favorite place in the universe, a place called Revel Point, which is a theme park feature that features that revolves around the Revel universe, a kind of big media property. While there, she begins work as Rose Red, who is her favorite Revel character. And she finally feels like she has found herself and she's found her people and she's so happy. There's a dreamy guy in the works and everything is perfect until the interim CEO of Revelpoint is nearly drowns in the lighthouse moat. And Marin is there to save him. Of course, what happens is Ithan is this like really cantankerous kind of jerk who doesn't seem to be that interested in the Revel universe, but is there because his brother has died and this was his brother's dream. So he's there to run this company and finish an immersive island of Sirens experience for our mermaid lovers out there. And he needs help. He needs somebody who knows this universe and can help him, like, really knock this out of the park. So the two of them work together, despite a power hungry stepmother in the wings who wants to sabotage the project and their budding relationship. And. And as they kind of face the twists and turns of this contemporary Little Mermaid retelling, the big question will be, can you take a fairy tale romance and make it the real thing?
- [24:19]
Jennifer Prokop
So if you would like this contemporary romance set in a theme park, with chosen family, fake dating, and a workplace romance, then Maren in the moonlight might be for you. If you click on the chapter title right now, you'll be taken to buy the book. Thanks to A.E. merryweather for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [24:40]
Sarah MacLean
Should we just begin straight at the beginning with the mustache?
- [24:43]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, if we must. I would say I was literally like, oh, my God, be in our books. All these fucking mustache people are gonna love this.
- [24:50]
Sarah MacLean
They're gonna flip out. It's so good. No, shut up. It's so good. Not because it's a mustache, but because of what the mustache represents, Jen.
- [25:01]
Jennifer Prokop
I. I guess is my inherited virility.
- [25:05]
Sarah MacLean
So, I mean, we've sort of gone over the plot, but let's just. I'll do a quick plot recap. So Mick Tramor is a Cornish rough rat catcher who lives in Whitechapel, which is where Jack the Ripper happened. For those of you who don't know. Just to give you a vibe of Mick, he moved to London years ago from Cornwall, and he has a very, very thick, very unique Cornish accent. He's big as a house. We love him for it. And he is known. He is just a good, solid. Like, if you have mice or rats in your business or home, Mick is who you call. He comes with a dog. Some ferrets. No, a few ferrets. A few dogs, but like one ferret and one dog who are very important.
- [26:06]
Jennifer Prokop
Do you think Sherry Thomas's guy with a dormouse in his pocket was a reference to Mick?
- [26:12]
Sarah MacLean
Maybe we could ask her. She would probably tell us. Yeah, right.
- [26:17]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, like, this was first, right? This came before.
- [26:20]
Sarah MacLean
This came before. There, I think, must. Right. 10 years earlier. Sheri also has, like, a really, like, encyclopedic knowledge of the genre. She definitely read the proposition there. Okay, so. So Mick, we meet Mick in a dress shop Right at the very start, because there are mice in the dress shop. And Mick has come to.
- [26:43]
Jennifer Prokop
No, he was romancing the shop girl out in the alley.
- [26:46]
Sarah MacLean
Oh. And you're right.
- [26:47]
Jennifer Prokop
And then here's the screaming.
- [26:49]
Sarah MacLean
I don't even know. I'm bad at plot.
- [26:50]
Jennifer Prokop
No, no, it's fine.
- [26:51]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, he's out. He's outside in the alley. There's like, you know, whatever. He's being. Mick, he's being. He's being viral in the back alley.
- [26:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Though not.
- [26:59]
Sarah MacLean
Though not untoward. And so he hears it screaming. He goes in. He just happens to be a rat catcher. There are mice in this thing. They're climbing the crinolines of this lady's skirts. And he sets. He. And he and his ferret find. Find the mouse. And he does this very sort of sweet talkie like, oh, yeah, come to me, little mouse. It's very. It's very hot. Whatever. I don't know. Jen's making a face. Whatever. This book installed my buttons. Listen, if there. Eric will tell you if there is a house, if there is a mouse in this house, it is not hot. There is only panic. But anyway, so while he's down there on the ground doing this, he looks into the dressing room and he sees a pair of legs. Nobody likes legs the way. Oh yeah, Mick likes legs. I mean, he. He sees legs that go all the way to the floor, as we say. And he is just like holy cannoli. During all of this. He also is thinking about his mustache and it's representation of his lion hearted virility. Listen, lionhearted virility is the greatest. This is the greatest description of anything ever. He has a very thick. He has a Tom Selleck lip, everybody. It's thick. The mustache is thick and pelty. And he's very proud of it. Very, very, very proud of it because it represents his lion heart of virility. Anyway, back to the book. He sees these legs. He. Then the legs leave and he decides. And then he gets like hit up by, you know, some baroness or something who thinks. Who offers him clearly is like, I would like to take you to a little bit of rough.
- [28:46]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [28:47]
Sarah MacLean
And instead he sort of demures and she says, well, what if we buy a pair of guard. What if I bought a pair of garters for your, you know, your woman, your lady friend. Your lady friend. And he's like, send the garters to, you know, with the dress that belongs to those legs cut to like minutes later. Um, the legs are now in an ice cream shop in like A. A tea shop. And the legs belong to Edwina Bawlish. And Edwina is, like, having a lovely time. She's bought a new. She's had some dresses tailored. She's now in this tea shop. She's having a nice time. And then all hell breaks loose. And in runs this gigantic man with a mustache. A thick, pelty mustache. His clothes, like, basically, like, his buttons are undone. He's like the Cl. He's being chased. There's a lot going on because poor Mick has been. You know, he's being chased by the shopkeep's uncle.
- [29:48]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Yeah.
- [29:49]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [29:50]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [29:50]
Sarah MacLean
And there's. It's just chaos. There's a lot going on. So they run into this. Then the chase ends up. Speaking of Bridget Jones. Very similar to the scene in the Greek restaurant where they run in, tables are upended, then the waiters. It's sort of a. Yeah. Crazy.
- [30:04]
Jennifer Prokop
Really. It was really interesting reading that, because it was so. I felt like I was watching an old movie.
- [30:10]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [30:11]
Jennifer Prokop
You know what I mean? Like, the whole vibe of these scenes. Yes.
- [30:14]
Sarah MacLean
Chasing around. I forget what they're. What that.
- [30:17]
Jennifer Prokop
I know.
- [30:17]
Sarah MacLean
Like, my show is called, like, Benny Hill. Like.
- [30:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Right. Like, just, like, all this madcap energy. And I was really, like, oh. I was not really expecting this.
- [30:26]
Sarah MacLean
Push him to the ground and he's shouting and no one can understand what he's saying because he has such a thick, like, weird accent. Except Edwina is immediately like, oh, my God, he's fascinating. I've never heard such an accent. And she is a linguist, so she is. Yes, she specializes. She is the Rex Harrison character in My Fair Lady. She specializes in, like, language. She wants to record him. She wants him. Like, she's suddenly, like. I've never heard anything like this. But she can immediately place him as being Cornish. And she's fascinated. So she becomes his, like, immediate translator, which is really fascinating. There's this really interesting moment because he kept.
- [31:08]
Jennifer Prokop
What does he keep saying instead of yes? I can't remember. Right. Like, they keep asking questions, and he's basically, like, saying, yes. But she's the only one who recognizes that that's what he's saying.
- [31:17]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, exactly. And so it all becomes, you know, whatever. And then there happened to be these two men who are in the tea shop, brothers. And they immediately sense that, like, there is. They're. They're presented to us as people who love wagering, as two brothers who, like, love betting against each other. And, like, they have so much money. They're, like, extravagant. And so they Decide they. They immediately recognize who Edwina is, and they essentially make a bet between them that Edwina can turn Mick into a VI count within six or eight weeks. I forget the timeline.
- [32:00]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [32:01]
Sarah MacLean
And if she can pass him off at a viscount, as a viscount at a particular ball run by. Thrown by a duke, one of them wins. And if she can't, the other one wins. And then, of course, Mick gets. Edwina will get paid and Mick will get paid. And then.
- [32:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Now the interesting part is at first, like, they don't. Mick's just like, not gonna get anything.
- [32:26]
Sarah MacLean
No, the POV in this scene is really interesting.
- [32:28]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [32:29]
Sarah MacLean
Because Mick is not it. Again, like, this is one of those things where, like, the choice is really interesting because Mick is on page, but we are not in his brain.
- [32:37]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [32:38]
Sarah MacLean
And you. Do you almost forget he's there?
- [32:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, because they have forgotten he's there. He's just like. And this is when I really was like, wait, is this a Trading Places retell? Right. Because in Trading Places with Eddie Murphy, right, Like, there's these two brothers who are just constantly betting, and they essentially make this bet, although in their bed. It's like the two will trade places, right? Like, we'll bring up Eddie Murphy and we'll send down Dan Aykroyd. But I was like, you know, so these two, like, sort of bickering brothers, right, like, kind of arguing about this stuff. It just was. And I was kind of like, but Mick himself has to be the one who's like. And what about old Mick? Like, what am I gonna get out of this? I'm not doing any of this if I don't get paid, right?
- [33:19]
Sarah MacLean
And they're like a hundred pounds, and that's a shitload of money.
- [33:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, he bargains them up, I think. Yeah. And I think one of the things that's really interesting about that scene to me is he realizes, like, with the kind of money on the table they're looking to spend, like, you know, I think they say 25. And he says, you know what? I think, whatever. I think there's some bickering back and forth. It doesn't matter. But the point is, is, like, he comes into the scene and we realize, like, he's not just gonna let himself be.
- [33:51]
Sarah MacLean
No.
- [33:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [33:52]
Sarah MacLean
Well, because Mick is a king, Jen.
- [33:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, of course. Always.
- [33:54]
Sarah MacLean
He's always in charge. And so. So the therein there is the story, right? And then from there, we get Edwina and Mick. Mick moves into Edwina's house.
- [34:08]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [34:08]
Sarah MacLean
And they are. They start lessons, Right. And it's really fascinating because it becomes very quickly clear that Mick is incredibly brilliant, a very good student, a very. Like, he can read. He get, like. There's all this stuff that, like, people don't expect from old Mick. And then Edwina starts. And then obviously from there it goes the way everybody would expect. These two fall for each other. And there's a class issue and, like, you know, there's this kind of. But I. So I don't want to get. I don't want to do any more plot because I want to get into, like, the actual conversation about the book because I don't think there is much more plot, except that the duke. It becomes clear, not immediately, but pretty quickly, that Edwina is the Duke's. Edwina grew up in this. The duke is throwing this ball. The duke is in his 90s. And she. Her father should have been duke, which would have made her Lady Edwina Boish, which is her title. But she would have been daughter to the duke and had a very, very, very different life. But instead, her father died and the dukedom passed. She does not have a brother. The dukedom passed to a distant cousin who is now the Duke and who she does not care for and does not have a good relationship with. But this house where the ball is being thrown is the house that she grew up in. So I think there's a really interesting. I would say there. We'll get into, I'm sure, that piece of the puzzle. But I really love the way Ivory lay that motivation over the top of the whole thing so that it felt like Edwina had skin in the game more than. Because, again, I think the problem. And I haven't seen My Fair lady in a long time. So if it's your favorite movie and I'm totally getting it wrong, I apologize. But, like, in My Fair lady, it feels like it's just to prove that Rex Harrison can. But in this situation, Edwina feels like a. Wouldn't it be. Wouldn't it. It would make her feel better to stick it to this duke because he has been so unkind to her.
- [36:29]
Jennifer Prokop
The sticking it to this duke, this cousin of hers is. She doesn't want that to be public. Right? Cause she can't humiliate him. It can't be that. It has to be, like, the knowledge. It's, like, purely internal for her. Like, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna put this imposter in the house and I'm gonna teach him how to talk and how to sit at a table and how to dance and charm people. And I will know that I did it because that will be the only way that I could ever. Personal. Yeah.
- [37:05]
Sarah MacLean
And we learn really quickly that, like, that's all Edwina has. Right. She doesn't. She's wearing kind of old dresses that she has, like altered and refitted to like, be a little more modern, but she has one. She's like two servants, a cook and a butler. She lives in, you know, a nice home, but, you know, it's modest. Everything about she works, you know, she gets paid. She's basically, her job is to do this right. Like, she takes young women who are titled or who have. Have come into money but don't have not learned social graces, and she teaches them how to speak proper, like how to speak properly. And so she has a career, she has a reputation. She is. But she is 29 years old and she is on the shelf and she has. She. She is very, at best, plain looking, at worst, maybe unattractive, very tall, very slim, sort of like can't see her way through to like feeling like she has any real value outside of her ability to help people chameleon into society.
- [38:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, when thinking about it, to me that was the other really compelling timeline thing that that allowed to happen, which is like, had this been the Regency, had it been 80 years earlier or whatever, her living alone, she wouldn't have had a job being. Right. Like, I think that setup required it being just like later.
- [38:52]
Sarah MacLean
You know what I mean?
- [38:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. So I totally got that.
- [38:58]
Sarah MacLean
This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Mila Fenelli, author of Empire of Temptation, the first in a brand new small town Mafia series.
- [39:10]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, so this is the New York State of Mafia series in which Italian Mafiosos, for mafia romance reasons, are transplanted into New York and shenanigans ensue into the Hudson Valley. Into the Hudson Valley.
- [39:25]
Sarah MacLean
So picturesque.
- [39:26]
Jennifer Prokop
And in this case, we have Luca, who is essentially being blackmailed to go to the States and essentially kidnap a young woman named Valentina and bring her back to Italy. And it turns out that her father was like a Mafia assassin. And people have been on the hunt for him and they didn't realize that, you know, who she was, but now they found her, right? And so Luca shows up in this tiny little town and goes into her restaurant, which is like this generations old Italian restaurant, and realizes that this young woman is in real trouble, right? Her chef is about to quit. No one's in the restaurant. And so he decides before taking her back to Italy and ruining her life, that maybe he should essentially be her mafia fairy goddaddy, as one would say, and, you know, like, help her find a new chef and help her find people to renovate the restaurant and, like, sort of get everything in order. And he is immediately, of course, in that Mila Finnelli way, it's age gap, Insta love, insta lust in a big way. And so, you know, he takes her around New York. He, like, fixes things at the restaurant. And she, of course, is really trying to figure out, why am I so into this older man? And what would, you know, like, what would everybody say about the fact that I am totally having the hots for this guy who could be my father's age?
- [40:50]
Sarah MacLean
Well, if you would like to find out exactly what happens when you have the hots for somebody who could be your father's age, then this book is for you. Empire of Temptation is available right now in print, ebook, audiobook, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now and be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Mila Finelli for sponsoring this week's episode. All right, well, first we have to talk about Mick, because he is a historical hero who is unlikely.
- [41:25]
Jennifer Prokop
Sarah's like, just like, where do I start?
- [41:27]
Sarah MacLean
He's such a delight. Like, he's so great because he doesn't. Here's the thing. You could expect that this would all feel really squicky. Like, here's this man. There's this class thing. There's a wager. It all feels in the wrong hands. This book ends up feeling like everybody's kind of, like, manipulating Mick and, like.
- [41:50]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [41:51]
Sarah MacLean
Mocking, you know, class difference and, like, really taking a swipe at poverty, at deeply working class people. But actually, what happens here is we see that Mick immediately identifies, you know, the way that this wager will set him up for more. But it's interesting because he never comes to. I'll be a gentleman. Right. What he comes to at the end is he has a plan, which is he's going to go somewhere and be a valet, Right?
- [42:28]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. Right.
- [42:29]
Sarah MacLean
He's got a job lined up. He's going to stop being a rat catcher.
- [42:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, and this is something that happens with the. The butler's help, Right? Like, this is.
- [42:40]
Sarah MacLean
We'll talk about the butlers. Where he sleeps first.
- [42:43]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I mean, but I. So it just was really funny because it's not necessarily that Mick was like, I want to stop being A ratch catcher and be a Valid. But in the process of doing this is like, oh, I could. I could be a Valid.
- [42:55]
Sarah MacLean
I could make more money. I could have my own. Like, I could have a home. I could have a life. I could be, you know, and so there's sort of a sense that it. He's aware at the beginning that this will open a door, but he's not aware of what the door will be. And then when he gets to the place where he's like, I see a door opening. It's one level up on, like, a social ladder. But it's still, like, he would be moving from, like, very working class to servant class, but, like, high up in servant class. Like, a Valid is like, that's a valuable, like, servant, you know, in the house. And I think so. I think, like, there is a. But what's fascinating about is that at no point does it feel like what Judith Ivory is saying is, like, Mick has to not be, you know, poor.
- [43:48]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, no, of course.
- [43:49]
Sarah MacLean
Right until the very, very end, which we'll get to. So the. So. So there's that. But also, there is this sense that Mick knows the world. He knows so much more than Edwina does.
- [44:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [44:07]
Sarah MacLean
He has seen so much more. He has done so much more. And he is going for every lesson she teaches him about how to aspirate his H's or, you know, speak, you know, perfect that particular vowel. He is like, let me tell you how this is going to go, how the world really is. And I think that this is set up immediately in that very first scene with the two of them, where she asks. Asks him to shave off his mustache.
- [44:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [44:35]
Sarah MacLean
Which is very clearly about, you know, we've already established. He has already established that for Mick, his mustache is like his whole identity. Like, it represents his virility, his lionhearted virility, his masculinity. Like, it is the thing about his appearance that he is most proud of. He brushes it out every day. He oils it. He's like, this mustache is well cared for. For.
- [44:58]
Jennifer Prokop
I wish everyone could see the look on my face. Like, all this mustache is even I'm like, gross.
- [45:04]
Sarah MacLean
And she's like, get that thing off your face. Right? Like, the first thing she says to him is, like, if we're gonna pass you off as a viscount, you have to shave that. And he's like, the king, the prince regent.
- [45:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, right.
- [45:15]
Sarah MacLean
Albert has a mustache.
- [45:17]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [45:18]
Sarah MacLean
And he's. She's like, yeah. No, but it's not like you're a mustache.
- [45:24]
Jennifer Prokop
You're, like, cute. Cool story.
- [45:26]
Sarah MacLean
So. So she's like, you have to shave it off. And he's like, I'm not doing that unless you give me something, too. And then there is this question of, like, well, what could Edwina Bolsh really give Nick Moore?
- [45:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. What would be.
- [45:40]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, because she doesn't have. She's like, I don't have any money. Like, she doesn't have anything. And he's like, yeah, but you got legs. And so they have this. They. They do this dance, which becomes the first, like, sexual scene in the book.
- [45:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [45:57]
Sarah MacLean
Where he's like, I want you to lift your skirts for me. And there's a long back and long back and forth about.
- [46:06]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. What will that mean?
- [46:07]
Sarah MacLean
What he will do to, like, what she will have to do in order to get him to shave his mustache? Is this before or after the bath when he, like, fights the butler about the back?
- [46:21]
Jennifer Prokop
It's after I. That's like, the first, like, coming in the door. Right.
- [46:26]
Sarah MacLean
So. And so, basically, he's like, I want you to lift your skirts. I want to see your legs. And then it's like, I want to kiss your legs.
- [46:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I'm gonna touch them. I want to touch.
- [46:36]
Sarah MacLean
I want to touch them. I want that. It needs to be higher than, like, there's a discussion of, like, how high. Like, to the knee, to the. You know, where. What is he gonna touch? And then, like, what happened? Like, can he, like. And it is intense. It is so intense that Edwina cries. And I think this is really fascinating. Cause I think this is a scene that you and I, like, kind of texted about where you were. Like, I don't think this would be written this way.
- [47:08]
Jennifer Prokop
I don't think it would be written that way.
- [47:09]
Sarah MacLean
And I think you're right. But I. Because I think now the perception of this scene could be like, oh, this is, like, it's not. She's not consenting. And I think she cries because he's like. I mean, she's never felt it. She's never had this, like. This level of, like, the whole thing is pulled so tight. Like, the tension in this scene is pulled so, so tight. And listen, this could be that I cut my teeth on, you know, Jude Devereaux. But it feels like this isn't about lack of consent. This is about, like, she doesn't even. Like, she didn't comprehend this ever happening ever in her life.
- [47:46]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, I think this is the part before we get to, like, what mix agenda is in the scene. She. I think Is like, I was really interested in Winnie in this scene, right? Like, so she's coming into the scene where she's like, I just cannot stand this mustache. And I was like, girl, I'm with you. Get that thing off his face. I'm like, when you said pelt earlier, I was like, I'm gonna die. Like, I just don't. Okay. What? Okay, anyway, so what you're saying is.
- [48:14]
Sarah MacLean
You did not find a representation of lionhearted virility?
- [48:17]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, I. Whatever, sir. I like a whatever. I don't want to get into it. I just don't feel this way about mustaches, everyone. I just don't. Anyway, but the part that's interesting is she essentially views everything about Mick up to this point as she has the upper hand because he is a rat catcher and she is a lady. And even though she's not a snob in that way, right? Like, it is built into her system to think, right, I'm smarter than him, I'm better than him. I have the upper hand. And so this is a scene where that gets completely swept out from under her. And in a way she does not understand. I mean. And you have to. And this is it. Like, y'all. Like, one of the things that I find really fascinating about this is, you know, here it is 150 years earlier. Like, she literally does not know a thing about her own body, right? Like, she's never looked at her own self before. She has no idea, like, what sex. You know, what sex is like. I mean, she knows nothing. And so the thing about this moment, too, is you're. And, you know, you have to understand, we live in a society right now where people are like, yeah, that's how it should be. Let's go back to that. Right? And that's why, like, this is such a powerful scene to me, because what she's doing is essentially like. And he's aware of this differential, but not, I think, to that extent, because his experience with women has been, especially.
- [49:48]
Sarah MacLean
Women of title and money is they know.
- [49:51]
Jennifer Prokop
They want a little bit of rough, and they come to me and they hire me to catch the rats, and then they take me upstairs.
- [49:59]
Sarah MacLean
And he just thinks, this is what. This is a game.
- [50:03]
Jennifer Prokop
This is a game to him. I don't think he really has. I mean, he knows that she's a virgin. He knows, but he doesn't really know.
- [50:11]
Sarah MacLean
But also, Jen, there's no way. Mick does not, in this scene, think he is getting any further than, like.
- [50:17]
Jennifer Prokop
No, of course not. The top of her legs Right, of course not. I mean, and because it's such a, like, spirited discussion about, like, how it's gonna work, and then it's gonna be 10 minutes here, then they're gonna go.
- [50:27]
Sarah MacLean
Up and there's like, you know, that he.
- [50:30]
Jennifer Prokop
And so I think that's part of the reason. A thing that I'm really fascinated by is the way we read it now. It's not like dubious consent in the sense that, like, that's what the author and we, the readers are experiencing. Like.
- [50:47]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [50:47]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, does that make sense? Like, it's. It's really literally like they are. It's cross purposes. And I'm fascinated by it because I do think it felt so much riskier.
- [51:02]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. Once you get through the rest of this, the. The next scenes, like, all the other scenes where they have sexual encounters and it takes a while for them to get to, like, really anything. Although in that. That's the scene when. Is that the scene when, like, he get. He, like, gets her off with just his hand. Does he do that?
- [51:27]
Jennifer Prokop
He touches her and she is like.
- [51:29]
Sarah MacLean
And then. Yeah, okay. She's like, what? And then she cries and he, like, consoles her. And while he's consoling her, he licks his palm. And listen, okay, listen, everybody.
- [51:42]
Jennifer Prokop
I was like, oh, she had no idea. No idea what was even happening.
- [51:47]
Sarah MacLean
Right? So he's holding her and he has touched her core.
- [51:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [51:54]
Sarah MacLean
To use. To use a historical term. And he licks his palm and you're in his pov. And it is the rawest.
- [52:04]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yeah.
- [52:05]
Sarah MacLean
Horniest. Listen, these girls on TikTok have no idea what horny means until they have read Mictrimore. Licking his palm after barely touching her. And it is like, suddenly you are like, oh, we are in a different class of hero here.
- [52:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [52:25]
Sarah MacLean
Like, I can't name another hero who would do that, Jen.
- [52:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, no. Inconceivable.
- [52:33]
Sarah MacLean
Sarah can't. I don't think I can think of another hero, another romance hero who would do that.
- [52:39]
Jennifer Prokop
No.
- [52:40]
Sarah MacLean
And so, like, that in itself is like, hats off, Judith Ivory. Like, I mean, it is so horny. Through all of this. There's the game of, like, teaching him what we've all. We all know. Pygmalion. There's the game of, like, making him into a viscount. It works, right? Like, he's. He's getting better and better and better and better. He shaved us. Shaves off his mustache. He put. Puts on new clothes. He, like, you know, learns how to tie a cravat. And like, suddenly he's just Looking like a completely different man. He looks like a ne. Aristocrat. And he's, like, really selling it. At the same time, the. The. The butler is like, he cannot live above stairs. Like, what is happening here? And I sort of love it. Gives me. It gives me a little bit of, like, Lord of Scoundrels vibes. Because the butler is sort of used as this character who. We don't really see him very much, but, like, he has opinions.
- [53:32]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [53:32]
Sarah MacLean
And he's really his. Through his opinions, we are seeing, like, the shift in Edwina.
- [53:39]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [53:39]
Sarah MacLean
In the same way that through Dain's friends and Lord of Scoundrels, we see the shift in Dain. So he's like. He moves downstairs below into the servants quarters. Like, anyway, all this is happening, but then at the same time, we start to see Winnie. Edwina becomes Winnie, which has always been a name that has bothered her because she has had cousins who called her Winnie because she looks like. Thought it was hilarious. Because she looks like a horse because she has a really long nose and she's kind of sinewy and she's very strong, but not. She looks like a horse and she's horsey. And so they thought it was funny to call her Winnie. But now when Mick calls her Winnie, it's like he cares for her.
- [54:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. It's an endearment, almost. Yeah.
- [54:32]
Sarah MacLean
He starts to care for her real fast. And there's that, too. The sort of sense of, like, he's falling for her.
- [54:40]
Jennifer Prokop
And before you go on, I think the other thing, though, that I think is, like, really interesting about this book, and I feel like it goes back to that scene with the legs. Right. Is he. When he renames her. Right.
- [54:56]
Sarah MacLean
When he.
- [54:57]
Jennifer Prokop
She is like, I never saw myself this way. Right. So, like, after, like, she's literally like my. I mean, I think, like, you have to understand already, she's like, my legs. Why the fuck would he want to see my legs? And then there's these. This scene where she's, like, looking at herself afterwards.
- [55:16]
Sarah MacLean
Yep.
- [55:16]
Jennifer Prokop
And she's like, I do have nice legs. Yeah. Like, yeah.
- [55:21]
Sarah MacLean
She starts to really, like, feel herself.
- [55:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. And I think that that is part of the reason that, like, the scene playing out again. Again, I. It's hard for me to imagine it being written that way today. Right. Like, I just think that it's. It's too clear that, like, his knowledge is so much greater than hers about, like, what's really happening. And I just think that we. It would. It feels like it would be hard to see a hero, like, the perception would be, like, him taking advantage of her or. Right. Like Dubious Kinsent or whatever. Right. But in this moment instead, what we realize is no one has ever been interested in her in any kind of way before. She has never been interested in herself this way. She's almost 30, right? That magical. I'm gonna turn 30 in this book, right. And, like, it's gonna be an awakening. But I mean, that scene where she, like, looks at her own legs in the mirror, I thought was just, like, really amazing.
- [56:19]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [56:20]
Jennifer Prokop
And you can't get there. You can't get there without going through that.
- [56:26]
Sarah MacLean
How much he wants to see her legs.
- [56:28]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Right. And I think the other thing that's, like, it would never.
- [56:32]
Sarah MacLean
Until that moment, Edwina Bolish has never looked at herself in the mirror. No, she has avoided herself.
- [56:38]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. Right. And that's why, like, the horsey thing made me think of it. Right. Like, the. The. The payoff of that scene. Like, yes, obviously, like, the raw hornies of, like, him, like, like, licking his head while he's, like, comforting her. Right. He knows he's pushed her too far. Right. But the other part of that scene, one that has a far longer, like, more interesting, like, direction to me, is her then being like, wait a minute, maybe there's more to me. Maybe. And it's not. And yes, I guess it's like, male gaze in a way, but it's not. Right. It's like her in her own room, like, lifting them up. And what she admires about her legs is, like, they're strong. Like, they're right. Like, it's a really fascinating. I don't know, I just really was like, there's a lot of payoff to that scene in a way that I did not really expect.
- [57:34]
Sarah MacLean
This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Max Monroe, author of what I Should have Said.
- [57:40]
Jennifer Prokop
So, Nora Ellis is about to get married. And the problem is, is, like, she doesn't really love the guy she's about to marry. He was picked out by her mother, who was terrible. And so on her wedding day, she is, like, literally in her dress when she discovers this envelope that has such incendiary information in it that she feels she has no choice but to become a runaway bride. So she literally runs out on her own wedding and heads for Vermont, which is where her sister lives. And she kind of gets a ride into town with Bennet Bishop, who is basically, like, the town grump. And they have, like, a real enemies to lovers vibe. At first, she's not sure who she can trust. And you know, he is just like kind of like the stoic, quiet type, right? But when he has something to say, it might be something that you are not ready to hear. And so basically the two of them essentially eventually become friends and really uncover like the origin of all the dark secrets that were part of this letter that sent her. Running away from her own wedding. So summer will never be the same for these two because they now will have to like, face the future, hopefully together, but also with like a huge dramatic woo, over the top thing.
- [59:06]
Sarah MacLean
That's right. What I Should have Said will contain all of the Max Monroe humor and spice that you know and love. But this one is a deep, emotional story and does contain sensitive topics. So check your content warnings before you read it if you need to. You can find what I Should have Said in print or ebook wherever you get your books. It is out this week and if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Max Monroe for sponsoring this week's episode. It's weird because that scene really unlocks them sexually in a slow burn. Like a sort of perfect slow burn because then we start to see them kind of dance around each other and like. And he says to her, when you are able to ask for what you want, I will give it to you. Right. Which is again, a sort of moment of him acknowledging her agency. Right. And I think Judith Ivory is trying really hard to like thread this needle of like. It is not the like. All of this is about Winnie. It's about Winnie having to grow, not about Mick. Like, Mick could end this book as a rat catcher and still be a fucking king. But Winnie has to sh. Has to come into. To your point, like come into a new age, right?
- [60:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [60:26]
Sarah MacLean
So then there's this great scene where they are on a bus, right? So they end up.
- [60:34]
Jennifer Prokop
They.
- [60:34]
Sarah MacLean
Where are they before him? Why am I. They go. And they have. They have. They go back to the tea shop.
- [60:39]
Jennifer Prokop
To kind of like practice soft run. Yeah. Because at this point it's like the other. Before we get to that, like, I actually want to talk about. One of the things that's interesting about that scene is. And the book in general is like we sometimes talk about three act structure. This book has a very clear, like beginning where they're in the world and then the like Most of Act 2 is like the phone booth, right? It is just the two of them. And that's why the butler kind of being like, this isn't appropriate anymore. He didn't say a word when Mick was a rat catcher. But once Mick starts to be right, he can tell. It's really unbelievable what happens when it's just the two of them. They literally are creating their own world for themselves. But you know that a book like this, the whole payoff is it's, we're gonna be back in the world, right? Yes. And that's the first time we see them giving that a shot.
- [61:36]
Sarah MacLean
So, wait, but before. I wanna say, before they get to the tea shop, he says to her in the phone booth part, he's very honest with her. He's basically like, I want you. Like, I want you all the time, any way I can get you. And she's like. She's, like, overwhelmed by him because he's. Even if he were, I mean, like, Mick Tramore could be the size of a dormouse and he would still be overwhelming to her, right? Like, it's not about size or scope or any of that. It's just about, like, everything about him is something she's never even thought to experience before. So he's like, I want you. And then he says this really interesting thing because they have this back and forth where, like, he kind of gets stroppy with her, as my mom would say. My British mother would say, where he's like, fine, I don't want you. And then immediately he's like, no, I want you so much. You're making me say things that aren't true. Right? Like. And then he says, immediately. Because in that line, right, he says, you are doing this to me. You are turning me into something I am not. And then he's like, no, wait. Instantly, the next line in the book is, no, I'm wagging my own tongue, like, immediately taking back anything that would make her think that this was her fault. Like, he. If he is an asshole, Mick is the asshole. Like, if he is good, Mick is good. There is no way that Edwina. Edwina's not in this. He is. She's not manipulating. He is doing everything himself. It's really. She. Judith Ivory, makes sure every step of the way that Mick is in charge.
- [63:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [63:17]
Sarah MacLean
And that in being in charge, he is leaving Edwina to her own agency. Right? Because there is a constant sense of. Edwina has to ask.
- [63:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Like, so there's a scene, and I had highlighted, where he says to her, right? He's basically like, I want a kiss you. I want to do a lot of things. And I've been about as forthright as a man gets about it. But it can't be all me every time. Me pushing, me seducing, me making you do what we both know you want to do anyway. Right. I can't keep chasing you. Right. You have to. You have to. You have to own this.
- [63:52]
Sarah MacLean
Yes.
- [63:53]
Jennifer Prokop
And I think one of the things, again that's, like, very interesting to me about this is even though that felt, as you said, like him kind of like trying to be as clear as he could. Right. There's a way in which it still feels like she doesn't even know what that means still, though, right? Like, I found it very much like she's confused. Yeah. Right. Like he and I. And again, I think that's the part about, like, the riskiness of it.
- [64:27]
Sarah MacLean
Until the box.
- [64:28]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Like him saying, like, I am being really clear with you about, like, what I want and her kind of being like, you know, I'm like, she doesn't know what that means. Right. She doesn't know what that means. And I.
- [64:39]
Sarah MacLean
But then she does.
- [64:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [64:41]
Sarah MacLean
Like. But here's the thing. I think you're supposed to feel that way.
- [64:45]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
- [64:46]
Sarah MacLean
I think.
- [64:46]
Jennifer Prokop
Agree.
- [64:47]
Sarah MacLean
I think that's part of the. The like, delight of this book is she doesn't get it until they go to that tea house and she sees. Oh, shit, he could pull this off.
- [64:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes. Right.
- [64:59]
Sarah MacLean
Because in comes the baroness from the dress shop. Mm. Who recognizes him but does not, cannot place him. Correct. And then she places him in Paris.
- [65:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [65:12]
Sarah MacLean
And he con mans this lady into believing that, yes, she did know him from Paris. And when she speaks French instead. He doesn't speak a lick of French. He says, I'm so sorry, my fiance does not speak French, so I'm gonna have to ask you to speak in English, which is so fucking smooth. And Edwina didn't teach him how to do that.
- [65:38]
Jennifer Prokop
No. Right.
- [65:39]
Sarah MacLean
And, like, he see and she's like, oh, wait, like he's gonna do this. And suddenly she's been left behind in this really interesting way because he could succeed, but she's still just gonna be Winnie from the block. Right?
- [65:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Right.
- [66:00]
Sarah MacLean
So they leave the tea shop and they get onto a bus.
- [66:05]
Jennifer Prokop
They leave.
- [66:05]
Sarah MacLean
They, they, they, they pass her carriage, like, he's not getting back into the carriage. They get onto a bus. The bus is going to somewhere. I can't remember what neighborhood, but it's going, like, somewhere, I think, east. Right? And they get into the east end of London to this place, a bar where A tavern. Like, and Nick's been there it's cheers, right? Like, everybody knows him. He walks in, right? Everyone knows him. Everybody's making fun of him for, like, no longer with the lionhearted virility. Look at your Tony accent. Like, everything about you is so posh. Who's this lady? She's so posh. What's going on here, right? And that's when Edwina is like, we're in her pov and she's like, what is this world, right? Like, how do I have to learn to be in this world? Because I want to know all of Mick. And that's to your point where the switch flips and Edwina suddenly starts to see, like, oh, wait, I'm starting to understand the game.
- [67:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [67:15]
Sarah MacLean
And then the dance happens, and it.
- [67:18]
Jennifer Prokop
Almost feels a little like she feels like I am here. It's conditional. I can't really join in. There's you, right? I can drink with them, I can hang out at the table, I can laugh with people, but I can't get up on this table and dance with.
- [67:33]
Sarah MacLean
These women because I'm Edwina Balos.
- [67:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. Right? And yet she loves dancing. And she is fascinated by their freedom, right? Fascinated by the way that she can tell that they have access. I mean, and again, because it's.
- [67:48]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. 90.
- [67:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [67:50]
Sarah MacLean
And right? Suddenly the world is women's.
- [67:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. And they. And then, like, they get. She gets pulled up there anyway, right?
- [67:58]
Sarah MacLean
And she has a charming young woman who's like, just come dance. No one cares.
- [68:03]
Jennifer Prokop
No one cares. No one cares. Is not anything Winnie has ever experienced in her life, right?
- [68:10]
Sarah MacLean
No. And also, like, there is nowhere safer for Winnie. One, none of these people are ever going to see her again. Two make. Is there? He's not gonna let anything happen to her.
- [68:21]
Jennifer Prokop
And the thing that's interesting, though, is there is a young aristocrat there, right? So anytime that. And this is like, again, that transition from out of the phone booth into the world, right now, they're still in mixed world, but there is this reminder there's a person there, this man who is a reminder of the world she's left behind. And it's not that she's worried he's gonna identify her, know who she is, but it's just a reminder. Like, if I leave this behind, then, right? Like, I. I don't really belong here. I belong this guy somewhere else in a Mayfair ballroom. And I think it's. It's a fascinating scene in every way, right? Like, she. Like, there's a really interesting part about, like, taking off her blouse, right? Like, it's so hot. And they are.
- [69:10]
Sarah MacLean
Blouse is slightly. It's not the same, everyone. Like, it's an overlay because, remember, this is Victorian England. They're wearing 17 layers of clothing, right? So it's like a jacket. There's like a coat or cloak that probably came off when she came in. And then there's a jacket and then there's a blouse and then there's a.
- [69:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [69:30]
Sarah MacLean
So whatever comes next. And then there's a chemise and then there's a corset and then a chemise. Anyway, so she's not nude in any way. Of course, removing a layer of clothing in public is a no.
- [69:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. But they are. She is sweating and. And I. And I just found that whole scene.
- [69:48]
Sarah MacLean
And she doesn't take it off. The woman does. The woman unbuttons her, right.
- [69:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, you can do this.
- [69:54]
Sarah MacLean
It's fine.
- [69:54]
Jennifer Prokop
Because they have all done it. And she's like, no, I couldn't. And then she does. And I just found that whole scene, again, like, really fascinating in the way in which you can do this thing. It's okay, but does she know what. Like, I don't. I was really fascinated in the whole book, in the tension between Winnie being, like, this woman of the world who knows nothing about the world.
- [70:20]
Sarah MacLean
I think it really does this beautiful job, this whole book does this beautiful job of, like, writing characters who are facing, who are, like, leaping and. And the net appears for them, right? Like, but the leap is the hard part, right? Like. And I think that Winnie is constantly in a state, as you say, you know, I keep coming back to you saying, like, well, she doesn't know. She doesn't know anything. She doesn't know what that means or what that is. And I think you're right. But I also think, like, it's born of fear. It's born of what will happen if I take this risk, do this thing, take off my blouse, you know, dance on the table, whatever. And I think the magnificent thing in this book is every time Winnie takes a risk, the net appears, right? It's okay.
- [71:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Winnie, who is of the aristocratic class, has her family was able to turn away from her. This man should have taken care of her, right? He should. She should have been able to go to the new duke's house and have him give her a dowry and, like. Right. And he just doesn't. And eventually people figure out and are kind of outraged and he's able to, like, kind of put her in this one house that wasn't entailed. And, you know, like, she can take, but, like, she has to sell off everything. Like, she's gonna really be on the edge. Whereas Mick, who is essentially like the sole breadwinner for his literally 14 brothers and sisters, right? Like, it's constantly sending money back. And I think there's another thing that's, like, really fascinating and it comes up in this scene is what she has been told about the benefits of her class, right? She never was really able to access, and now she's really seeing, like, wait, these women are having more fun, right? Like, there's a way in which it's like, it's. It's Pygmalion. And he's one undergoing the supposed transformation. But she is.
- [72:28]
Sarah MacLean
She is transformed. Yeah. And they're. But it's so beautiful, like, when she finally gets up there and she dances and dances and dances and dances until she's sweaty and tired and needs water and, like. And then she, like, comes down and she's so hot. And he takes her out into the alleyway to cool off. And, like. They make out in the alleyway?
- [72:51]
Jennifer Prokop
God, yeah, they do.
- [72:52]
Sarah MacLean
And is unbridled and so hot. Because these two have finally, finally found a place where they can stand on the same footing.
- [73:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct?
- [73:06]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [73:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [73:07]
Sarah MacLean
And he's like, I. I mean, the. Again, not to put too fine a point on it, but it is so. He's so hot for her. Like, so he's gone for this woman. And he is just like, I want to take you. I want to. You here in this alley, but you deserve better. I want to take you home. I want to take you to bed. I want to do terrible, like, wicked, wonderful things to you. And then they. So she's like, yes, yes. Like, yes. And then on it. And it's unequivocal. It's like they're. The consent is at that point, there's no more. Right? And they get into. Where? Where are they? In a carriage.
- [73:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [73:49]
Sarah MacLean
Followed the bus. And so they get into the carriage and then he, like. And they're making out a little bit, and then he, like, settles and he's like, starts to look out the window and she. And like, as they're getting closer and closer to Mayfair, right, Like, going back to this world, it's not Winnie who tightens up, it's him. Because he starts to realize there is no end game here. Like, he is in love with this woman. And if he. Her, like that can't. Like, it won't just be a night in. It won't be an afternoon in some rich lady's House after he's caught mice. It will be devastating. It'll be raw for him.
- [74:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Right? Right.
- [74:36]
Sarah MacLean
That said, they get home and he sends her to bed. He's very noble. And he goes down into the servants quarters. And then she comes to him. Yeah, she comes to him and she's like, I want this. I want you. I want this. Doesn't matter that the butler is two doors down. Like, I want this.
- [74:54]
Jennifer Prokop
My favorite. Like, then the butler, like, wakes up the next morning, figures out what's going on, and he and the cook are just like, I can't deal with this. I gotta go. We seed the house to YouTube.
- [75:04]
Sarah MacLean
I mean, it's amazing. That line. I also highlighted that line. It was just a great moment where it was like, because these two are so hot for each other, you guys, they are fucking all over the house. Like, they cannot keep their hands off each other. And this is, like, possibly the rawest in historical. This is rare, right? This sort of. Well, first of all, you're rarely alone, right, In a historical in house. So leaving her alone in that house with him, like, gives them this freedom to just. I mean, it's like a bacchanal. Like, they're just everywhere, right?
- [75:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Well. Cause they also know, right? And the ball is coming. At which point, whatever this is between them, everything will be over. It'll be done. And I think that that's, like, the part too. Is it that feeling of that, like, this time with them alone is coming to an end. And they both know it. And it's fascinating. I'm just fascinated by the way in which it plays out, right? Like, by the way in which Winnie, sort of without, again, like, kind of really knowing exactly what she's getting herself into, right? Without. And really decides, like, I. And going down to him is, again, so important and so different than the way he's been treated by rich women in the past, right? Who he goes up to their rooms and, like, services them, right? And so I think it's just like a really fascinating scene. And then, you know, like, the day that the Lamont brothers are gonna come back and, like, you know, bring the invitation. And at this point, they talk about what they think might be going on, right? But I mean, they both realize that these two brothers must something up to something prior to this.
- [76:57]
Sarah MacLean
I can't remember the timeline, but at some point point, the Lamont brothers come and check in, and they bring him some clothes and a hat that he really likes and, like, some other stuff, right? And they leave him £50 in crisp, clean Pound notes on the mantelpiece. And they're like, this is for, like, whatever else you need. Like, just. This is for spending. And Mick has a friend named Retso who we never meet, but who is, like, very important. Or I guess we do meet him, but, like, it's. He's important because he does a lot of things in the background. And Retso. And Retso is a forger. And that's how Retso gets by. He forges money. And Mick goes and he picks up the money that the twins have left, that the men have left. And he's like, oh, this is really good. This is better than Retso's.
- [77:50]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [77:51]
Sarah MacLean
And Edwina's like, like, how. How could you dare consider that this. You know, this seems strange that you. You know, this isn't. It's. These are not forged documents. These are up and up, gentlemen. And he's like, I guess. And then he, like. He, like, kind of leaves it. But it's very clear to him that Mick is onto something and he can't figure out what the game is. And we don't know what the game is. And Edwina surely doesn't, but she trusts interests him enough that she sends a letter to the Duke's young wife.
- [78:23]
Jennifer Prokop
This isn't the Duke's wife that she sends the letter to. I almost sent emails. It's one of her students. Her students, right?
- [78:29]
Sarah MacLean
It's like she's.
- [78:30]
Jennifer Prokop
She's emailing. She's emailing everybody, essentially, like, the people that she has helped kind of get into society, Right? And she has sent a couple letters around, like, does anybody know these guys? I'm just checking up on something. And it's one of these women who's like, I don't know. But there is the rumor of these two twin brothers from Bath, I don't.
- [78:57]
Sarah MacLean
Know, somewhere, wherever, Right.
- [78:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Who potentially are up to no good. Nobody really quite knows, Right.
- [79:05]
Sarah MacLean
Like, and had.
- [79:06]
Jennifer Prokop
No.
- [79:07]
Sarah MacLean
And had passed off. Passed themselves off as being titled. Like, anyway, it doesn't matter. The point is, like, suddenly something starts to smell funny. And then also, before we get into the end of the book, I want to just point out that this is also. This is also the time, like, right before that day. Like, what? During the sex fest that they're having. This is when Mick reveals that he has a plan. And the plan is for him to. Oh. Because he buys Winnie her dress. Dress. So a dress arrives. So, okay, Winnie always gets invited to this ball because she's related to the Duke and his lovely young Wife invites her every year because it's polite. She never goes. But so she has an invitation to this ball, and she's basically waffling. Like she doesn't think she wants to go, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, it would be really important to me for you to go. And she's like, well, I don't have a dress. Like, I don't could go. I can't afford a, like, new ball gown. This is. That's beyond my. My budge my budget. And so he buys her a dresserize and it's like the most beautiful dress anybody's ever seen. And she's like, mick, how? And he's like. And then she's like, where's your dog? Like, Magic, his pet, was there. And now Magic is gone. And he's like, well, I sold all my ferrets and I sold the dogs because I'm not going back.
- [80:36]
Jennifer Prokop
I have highlighted. A poor man learns what he values more than a rich man. I loved that dog, but I love you more. And I want a life with hot baths and books and enough money for the last of my brothers and sisters to get a good start. So I sold it all. And he bought. And he bought her a dress. But it's also like, I'm gonna become a valet. You could sell this house and we could propose it.
- [81:01]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [81:01]
Jennifer Prokop
We could go to the country and be a couple. We could be together.
- [81:06]
Sarah MacLean
You could write your papers and publish them and live in the valet's house, and I could be the valet. And then this house, the. The. The estate that we're going to has dogs. Like, it will be a different life, but it will be a better one and we will be together. And he proposes, and she's like, yeah.
- [81:27]
Jennifer Prokop
And I think he's not. It's fascinating. I don't think it's not like a big betrayal that she doesn't say, like, yes, right away. Like, he understands that he is really presenting her with something that.
- [81:37]
Sarah MacLean
A completely new life. So then income, the brothers. But they're late. So we are cut to. We cut to their point of view. And they are at the Duke's house the morning of the event, the ball. And they come in and this is where I think probably if you were going to have issue with this book, this is. This is where it is.
- [82:05]
Jennifer Prokop
And this is like, by the way, Rudy, this is like literally 85% like, you all right? It's literally the end of the book. Like, everything's gonna happen. That's gonna happen. And we have been teed up for there being some kind of shenanigans with these brothers.
- [82:19]
Sarah MacLean
We don't know what the thing is, right? So then they go in, they meet with the Duke and it is revealed that 30 some odd years ago, a child was stolen. His, The Duke's grandson was stolen, was kidnapped and never found again. And at the time, the Duke, who was very wealthy, but not a duke, then offered £100,000, which is, I mean, an astronomical sum of money for any information leading to the discovery of this child, this kidnapped child. And no one ever. Nothing ever came through. And here are these twins and they go and they find him and they say, we think we found your grandson and we're gonna prove it. We're gonna bring him to the ball tonight to meet you. And there's a portrait on the wall and one of them says to the other, like, oh my God, it's the spinning image of Tramore, right? And the Duke is like, get the fuck out. Like your charlatans. Like, you think I haven't gone 95 years without hearing for the last 30 years from a bunch of people who are scammers.
- [83:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, right?
- [83:36]
Sarah MacLean
He's like, get out. And but ultimately, like is swayed enough that he gives them an invitation. It's a little bit waved over, but so they get the invitation. They are late to meeting Mick and Edwina. And it's sort of lovely that they're late because in the time that has passed since they were supposed to arrive with evening clothes for Mick, et cetera, Edwina and Mick have sort of come to this place where maybe it's okay that they never go to this ball. Like, maybe there's this future that they didn't plan for. Like this. This is. This game is no longer of interest to them. And. But they come anyway. They have the invitation, they go to the ball. There's a, you know, the ferrets in his pocket. There's a lot that goes on at this ball. It's not really like, it's lovely, but we don't need to get into it here. And then. Oh, I should also add, they get to. So Mick has chosen his clothes. He's chosen a cloak with a purple lining, right? And so they come in, the twins come in and they're like, okay, well, you love the color purple because they've met with a servant at this house who gave them some information about this child before it was gone. He was kidnapped. This child's favorite color was purple. And Mick was like, well, I do like the color purple. Like, I chose this Purple lining. And then the child also loved trains. And Mick was like. Like, I don't know anything about trains. Like, I've never even been on a train. But what I do know is that in America, the red car is called the caboose. And they're like, wait. You know, like, wait, you know that word, Like. And they're like, why do you know that word? He can't remember. He read it somewhere. He's not sure. And suddenly there is this sense among everyone that, like. Well, not Edwina and Mick, because they still don't know quite what's going on. But, like, you get the sense that these twins are suddenly like, oh, shit. Like, what if maybe it's actually done this?
- [85:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Maybe one of them's like, what if it's really him? And the other one's like, don't be a fucking idiot. You know, like, it's just really funny. But I think the other thing is, this is then the moment. Then they. I don't know, like, they leave, they come back, whatever. And this is when Mick and Edwina kind of talk, like, what? It's weird, the things they were asking and they kind of put together.
- [85:54]
Sarah MacLean
There was a missing child.
- [85:55]
Jennifer Prokop
A child, right. Like, she's like, wait, there was a missing child? And he's like, this is about a child? And they're like.
- [86:01]
Sarah MacLean
It's a bit like. There is a. There is a slight moment on the reader of this book where you're like, wait all. Like, this is really an 85% moment.
- [86:11]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, yeah, right.
- [86:12]
Sarah MacLean
It's not mentioned at all in the first. You know, not. Not even. Anyway, Whisper of it.
- [86:17]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [86:17]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [86:18]
Jennifer Prokop
Well. And I think that's the part where it feels. It doesn't feel super well integrated into the rest of the plot. It just doesn't. It just feels like.
- [86:27]
Sarah MacLean
But at this point, you're just like, here we go. We're in a historical everything.
- [86:30]
Jennifer Prokop
We're in historical Bippity Poppity Bill.
- [86:32]
Sarah MacLean
Nick is a king. Why not a duke? Why not a duke? Right?
- [86:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, I think the other thing about this that was interesting to me was just like, how little they were interested in what the plot could be, that they're right. They just. I guess more than anything else, the part that's interesting to me is she's like, let's just not go. And he's like, that's not gonna be an option. These men have spent their money like we are. There's a way in which he, as a. And I think this is like a class issue. I think the Way that plays out is he is like, we're on. This has to happen now because rich people want it to happen, and we can't. We can't escape this trap.
- [87:18]
Sarah MacLean
And also. But don't forget, he's also being really noble in this moment, because he's like, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna tell this Duke that these people are trying to fleece him. Like, he has a plan that is very noble. And so they get there and. And it sort of rolls out the way that it's, you know, expected. Except Mick goes downstairs and speaks to his servant, and then he gets more information that feels like, wait a second, maybe it is me.
- [87:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [87:57]
Sarah MacLean
And then he goes and he meets the Duke, and they have this moment where the Duke is like, all of you.
- [88:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, Right. He thinks that they're.
- [88:03]
Sarah MacLean
Edwina's in on it.
- [88:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [88:05]
Sarah MacLean
He's like, how dare you? He calls Edwina terrible things. He, like. You know, he gets them out. He, like, pushes them out of their. His home, and they go home to Edwina's home. And then, like, the next morning, they receive news that the Duke, because. Oh, the ferret. Yeah, Mick's ferret has also gotten lost, like, in this house. This big house.
- [88:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Well. Cause Edwina realizes that it was in his pocket at some point. She puts two and two together, and she's like, if they figure out that he has a ferret in his pocket, he will be outed as a rat catcher in the most horrible, humiliating way possible. I need to save him life, that whole bit.
- [88:48]
Sarah MacLean
Because she's like, no gentleman would ever bring a ferret to a ball. And he's like, how the fuck do you know? Like, all these people are so weird. And then, like, within pages, some other guy's like, oh, I'll help you find it, because I lost my monkey once in a. Whatever. Like, it is hilarious.
- [89:03]
Jennifer Prokop
It's so great.
- [89:05]
Sarah MacLean
And so they get. And then they get word that the Duke is dying. So they go and he. They've been summoned back to the house. So they go to the house. They go to his London home. He's been moved to his London home. And they walk in, and Nick's Nick, Mick says, I've ratted this house. I know this house. Except he doesn't know this house. He's never ratted this house. He knows it because he grew up inside this house. Or grew up. He had three years inside this house. This is the house of his childhood, or very early childhood. They go up, the Duke and the ferret are Dying in bed. And they realize in that moment that, like, in fact, he is the heir to the dukedom.
- [89:47]
Jennifer Prokop
Right?
- [89:48]
Sarah MacLean
And in fact, this will be what ends up happening. Like, he will inherit this dukedom. And, you know, noble young Mick, like, lionheartedly virile Mick gets king of London. Got to be the wealthy duke.
- [90:08]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. And I will say this to me, 25 years later is like, not the way the ending would have to play. Would play out.
- [90:17]
Sarah MacLean
No, the ending now would be they end up, like, in the country, the living the life he's. That he planned for, that they planned together. But I gotta say. Okay, so here's where. Can I just give a little love to, like, the historical romance is like, there's something really lovely and historical about this, though, right? Like, the magic, the, like, fantasy of. And now everyone's a duke.
- [90:42]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, sure.
- [90:44]
Sarah MacLean
There's something kind of great about that.
- [90:47]
Jennifer Prokop
It's like a literal fairy tale. Like, Right. A literal fairy tale is the Princess and the Pea and the. Right. Like, yeah, like, yeah, lost baby lost. I mean, so in that way. But it did just feel like the need to wrap it up with. Because I think one of the tension, right. I think for the reader now is what the book is saying. And I don't think this is what the book is saying, but I could see this being a question. Is what the book is saying is the reason Mick was able to pass all these tests and do all these things is because there is some sort of innate aristocratic, like, right. Like, way in which, like, he was able to do all those things because he was the duke versus. Right. Like, he's a good guy and he's, like, smart and capable and funny and all these things. And therefore the dukedom finds him, like, Right. Like, there's this sort of tension there. And I, I, I just found myself thinking, if this was written today, he. This wouldn't have to be the way it ends. No, Right. Like, oh, magically, by the way, this baby was stolen and it was you. But also, I don't hate it.
- [91:59]
Sarah MacLean
I mean, like, I just.
- [91:59]
Jennifer Prokop
Of course not.
- [92:00]
Sarah MacLean
Because I feel like, you know, if, if there is a genre where it can work out this way, it is historical. Right. I think what's happening here in 1999, right, in, like, on the heels of Lisa Claypas and Beverly Jenkins and Susan Elizabeth Phillips and others who were writing these kind of, like, real men, right, is we are getting into a movement in historical where the question is, like, are you noble or do you have nobility?
- [92:35]
Jennifer Prokop
Correct.
- [92:36]
Sarah MacLean
Right. And that's what Mick is about like he is. And. And this is an inspiration. This becomes an inspiration for me, for Sheriff, for Courtney Milan, for, in many ways, Tessa Dare. Right. Like, where we start to sort of see this balance.
- [92:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [92:57]
Sarah MacLean
Come to pass.
- [92:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. No, and I think that that's the part that's, like, really interesting, right. Is that, like, again, like, there's nothing more fairy tale than. Yeah. Like, there's nothing more fairy tale at all than we're gonna find each other and be perfect for each other and then be rewarded with.
- [93:17]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [93:17]
Jennifer Prokop
The dukedom.
- [93:18]
Sarah MacLean
We are decent, good people, and then we get millions of pounds.
- [93:23]
Jennifer Prokop
Right, Right. And then we'll win. And I think the other thing is in this kind of book now, right, Like, a. A good example would be Luisa Darlings.
- [93:37]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [93:38]
Jennifer Prokop
Don't let your Duke scripture be scoundrels. Right. Her mother is a nanny or, like, a governess. The duke could fall in love with her after his first wife dies. She marries. You know, he marries the governess, and then. And no one accepts them, and they're all allowed to, like, you know, give them the cut direct. And then after the duke dies, all of society feels completely enabled and emboldened to, like, turn their back on her. Her entry into that world was never real. It was always conditional. And I think in this book, what we see is, like, Mick instead is like, there's no way in which the book grapples with, like, how will the rest of the Dukes. Right. Like, except the rat catcher Duke, it's just going to be fine because he's going to be a duke. And I think that that's part of the. The way in which it just felt a little different. Right. And again, I don't have a problem with it. I just feel like it was very much like, as I was reading it.
- [94:41]
Sarah MacLean
I was just like, a time.
- [94:42]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, Right.
- [94:45]
Sarah MacLean
And I think that's the value of it. Right. Like, historical, as you said from the beginning. Like, it is the best representation of the time in which we are living.
- [94:54]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. And the time it was written. Right. Yeah.
- [94:57]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah. And I think. I think this is a really beautiful book because it, for me, feels like a book that other writers were reading. I feel like this is a book other writers read at this time. Right.
- [95:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Like I said, I was like, oh, Sherry Thomas and the Dormouse in the Pocket. It's a pivot book, is saying something about Mick.
- [95:22]
Sarah MacLean
There's a reason why I love a, like, hot makeout in, like, a East End alley.
- [95:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Alleyway.
- [95:29]
Sarah MacLean
Like, there is. There are things in this book that we can see.
- [95:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [95:33]
Sarah MacLean
You know, like, for every moment that people. Every time people talk about the place in Hell's Bells, like, there is something.
- [95:41]
Jennifer Prokop
That'S talking about this far. Right.
- [95:44]
Sarah MacLean
And I mean, I wouldn't have been able to necessarily say that to you three years ago, but on the reread, I was like, oh, look, here's. Here's this in mine. And I think the dog, like, the pets, like Elizabeth Hoyt, is in conversation with this book. And so I think as few historical readers. I mean, I do think a lot of historical readers read this book, but I think way fewer have read this book than have read others. And. But I do think a lot of writers read this book. And so it's an interesting hinge point, Right. It takes Derek Craven and, like, flips him to a different kind of hero.
- [96:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Well, and I think that's the part we had that same conversation when we read Gentle Rogue, right. Where we were like, oh, we can see the ways in which this spawned. Right. And then, like, you're going back to, like, the original. Like, its original point.
- [96:38]
Sarah MacLean
The original text. Yeah.
- [96:39]
Jennifer Prokop
And I felt like that's how I felt reading this. I was like, I'm reading some kind of uber romance text where I'm seeing. I saw all the fingerprints all along. And now I'm going back and being like, oh, here's where those came from.
- [96:51]
Sarah MacLean
It's like, you go back to the flame in the flower, which I never recommend anyone do unless they're really interested in the history romance. But, like, Brandon. The muscle flinches in Brandon's cheek, like, 16 times in that book. And it's like, well, there it is. There's the DNA. And so I think I. I just. I'll just say, like, when I finish this, I listen. I listened to it on audio and read it at the same time. The audio is really interesting because I. And I'm actually really glad that I listened to it in audio because the voice actor does the, like.
- [97:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, the accents or whatever. Yeah, right.
- [97:29]
Sarah MacLean
Does the accents. And so it's really interesting. But. But when I got to the end of it, I really had this moment where I was like, I'm really glad we're reading this because I feel like this is a book. I. I want people to think of this book as being one of the canon. Do you know what I mean? Like, such as it is. Like, I feel like it is. Saying it is. It is representative of something that was happening in 1999. And when you think about it in. I mean, if you think about 1999. Right. That's when the first Bridgerton book was written too. Like, talk about two. When we talk about the family tree. These are two books in the same year that are vastly different in terms of what they are doing. Right. Like, Julia Quinn is about to like, break open the Regency and the. And like over here on this, like, Lisa Claypus arm.
- [98:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [98:30]
Sarah MacLean
You know, Judith Ivory is. Is really talking about class.
- [98:36]
Jennifer Prokop
It turns out then that Mick's mother was the governess again, the nanny. Right. And she was the wet nurse. Yeah. She's the one who kidnapped Mick.
- [98:50]
Sarah MacLean
And because she hated the family.
- [98:53]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [98:54]
Sarah MacLean
She's like, you don't deserve this boy.
- [98:55]
Jennifer Prokop
You don't deserve this baby.
- [98:57]
Sarah MacLean
She's also dead.
- [98:58]
Jennifer Prokop
And that she's dead. We can't go back, so we can't go back. And I also was really interested in.
- [99:05]
Sarah MacLean
How.
- [99:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Little the book cared, frankly, about why that happened. Almost to the point where it was like a MacGuffin. But the MacGuffin was the baby. Right. I think that part was also really interesting to me and I think that there. And the other thing that's really clear is so there's like these 14. She's very Catholic. Clearly this woman was earning money to care for the children.
- [99:35]
Sarah MacLean
She was sex working by being a sex worker. I mean, he says it and he says that.
- [99:39]
Jennifer Prokop
He's like, it's kind of ironic.
- [99:41]
Sarah MacLean
She's paying for us.
- [99:42]
Jennifer Prokop
She was paying for us in a way that made more of us.
- [99:46]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [99:48]
Jennifer Prokop
But I was really fascinated by the way in which the book is not very interested at all in exploring why she might have done that.
- [99:57]
Sarah MacLean
No.
- [99:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. It almost to the point where, like, again, if I was editing this book now, I'd be like, we might need a little bit more here at the.
- [100:05]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, well, I think we would have had it if. If it had been pulled. It's almost like it went in on a later draft and, like, didn't get pulled through.
- [100:14]
Jennifer Prokop
And sometimes I say that to people.
- [100:16]
Sarah MacLean
I'm like, we need.
- [100:17]
Jennifer Prokop
You need to pull this back. Like, we need to see the breadcrumbs of the. This way earlier. It doesn't have to be a big deal, but one conversation here, one piece of. You know what I mean, information here. And I think that's why I think in some ways, and like you said, I think if someone was going to say, like, look, the. This part is underdeveloped. You're right, it is.
- [100:36]
Sarah MacLean
I don't think it falls apart, but I do. I can see why that would be a concern.
- [100:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [100:41]
Sarah MacLean
That said, mick Tramore for president.
- [100:44]
Jennifer Prokop
And I had a great time reading this book.
- [100:49]
Sarah MacLean
Listen. And every time I say, have you ever read the one with the rat catcher? Some historical reader wrinkles their nose and is like, rat catcher. And I'm like, trust me, don't. I would not steer you the wrong.
- [100:59]
Jennifer Prokop
There's a part on page where he realizes there's rats in her carriage house. And he's like, they're gonna come into the house eventually. Like, I could see that over there. And she's like, no one else would ever notice that. He's like, you're telling me that a man sitting here wouldn't notice a hole in the floor or whatever? And he then, like, it's. This part is fascinating. Like, sets up a scenario where they're gonna have to go catch the rats in her. In her carriage house. And he has her come and watch this.
- [101:29]
Sarah MacLean
Like, brutal.
- [101:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Because he realizes. Yeah, but like, also impressive, right? Like, he's like, you said, just think it's gross, but watch me do my work, right?
- [101:40]
Sarah MacLean
It was fascinating. If my husband were a rat catcher, I would think I was terrific because I live in New York City where everyone has a mouse.
- [101:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Everyone has a mouse. You know, it's funny because my TFA roommate, Mindy, maybe I've told the story, had there were rats in her building. Sorry, I'm gonna wrap it up. And then a rat catcher, literally, like a modern day rat catcher exterminator, came into a room, like, walked into the room and was like, you've got rats. And I was like, I've told this story.
- [102:10]
Sarah MacLean
No, disgusting, disgust. I can't. Yeah, so I want to die. Anyway, Mick Tramore mct. More lion hearted virility for the win. And he shaves off his mustache. So it makes both be happy everybody, the beginning and Jen happy because of the end. So it works out great. Anyway, everybody, welcome. Welcome to 2025. I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Prokop. We are fated mates. You can listen to us every Wednesday. We are here in 2025 for you every Wednesday. We promise. And you can listen to us wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow us on Blue sky, on threads or on Instagram where we are fated mates or fated mates pod. And. And you can also, if you really love hanging out with us, come hang out with us on the Discord, which you get access to when you join our Patreon. More information on that is in show notes and@fatedmates.net Patreon Speaking of shownuts. Jen puts them together every week. They are filled with lots of the things that we talk about on the podcast. Go check them out because they're amazing and and you can always find us@faded mates.net thanks so much everybody. We're going to get through it.
- [103:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Happy 2020 catching rats in 2025 a girl can dream.