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Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
S07.48: Con Artists & Criminals with Joanna Shupe
01:28:54
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- [00:01]
A
Very exciting day. We have one of our very favorite people here with us. Everyone. Welcome to fade of mates. I'm Sarah Maclean. I read romance novels, and I write them.
- [00:10]
B
I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And with us today is. Introduce yourself.
- [00:16]
C
I'm Joanna. I'm Joann. Joanna. Joanna Shoup.
- [00:22]
B
I'm like, you do it. It's fine.
- [00:24]
C
I feel so honored. Like, I've been here enough that I don't need an introduction. I love it.
- [00:27]
A
No. Well, we love you very much. And Joanna Shupe is not just Joanna Shoop you all, because she is also Milla Finelli. And we are very proud to have been the place where Joanna.
- [00:41]
B
Oh, yeah, that's true. That's right. The big reveal, Joy.
- [00:44]
A
The big reveal. It was pretty great. Mila came out wearing a mustache.
- [00:51]
B
This was at faded mates live in 2023.
- [00:56]
C
It was a gag. Perfect for the audio medium.
- [00:59]
A
Exactly.
- [01:02]
C
But it worked. It worked. Person. I think it's true.
- [01:05]
A
And then we introduced Mila, and then we. She revealed herself to gasps from the audience as Joanna Shoo. But we feel like we've talked a lot. We've done a deep dive of Joanna's books. We talk about Joanna's books all the time. We talked about. We talk about Mila's books all the time. So you all. It really is one of those situations where you don't need an introduction. But. But if I were to give you the information, I would say Joanna Shoup, Mila Fenelli, whose books are consistently bangers.
- [01:44]
C
Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. I have poison ivy. I'm ready to go.
- [01:51]
A
That's not a euphemism, everybody.
- [01:53]
C
She actually has poison ivy covered in poison ivy. I feel like it's making me really feisty. So I'm ready to go.
- [02:00]
B
Good.
- [02:01]
A
Perfect.
- [02:02]
B
Now you're ready for faded mates. One of the things. You've had a big summer because we're. You're here to talk about your new historical, the Gilded Heiress, which we're talking about in a minute. But you have had. You also released a Mila book this summer. So you've had, like, two books come out in the same summer. Stopping. Such an overachiever. But I. We're going to talk about the Guildaris, I promise. But I'm really interested in. Now that you've been doing both for a while, how do you see the intersection of, like. Is there, like, sort of a Venn diagram that, like, there are things that don't overlap? And then There are things that do first.
- [02:38]
C
I don't recommend releasing. I don't recommend ever doing what I did to anyone. I mean, this summer has been. It's been pretty crazy, and summer's my busiest time anyway because I'm on the road with my daughter's travel softball team. So it's like. It just has really been bananas.
- [02:58]
A
Getting poison Ivy.
- [03:00]
C
Getting poison Ivy.
- [03:02]
A
The glamorous life of two authors.
- [03:06]
C
So glamorous. Yeah. It's interesting because there's not a lot of overlap between the two reader groups, I find.
- [03:17]
A
Really? Even now?
- [03:19]
C
Well, once people find out, they are like, oh, I'll have to check that out. Or, oh, really? Or then they get excited because it's like they have more books.
- [03:30]
B
Yeah, right. By a beloved author.
- [03:31]
C
Right, right. Like a back. Sort of a backlist that they can go check out on either side. But I really do find that they are pretty. There's not a huge overlap. I feel like the Mila people skew a little younger. I have a lot of readers from other countries, you know, all over the world, whereas Shoup feels maybe not as international and a little older. But that's just my own. You know, that's anecdotal nonsense. I mean, I don't know whether that's true or not, but based on who comes into the mailing list, that's sort of what I've seen.
- [04:15]
B
Okay, so that's true of the readers, but what about you? Like, do you think that there's overlap between these? Like, when you think about yourself and, like, the things you're interested in writing, for example, or obviously they're both you.
- [04:30]
C
Right.
- [04:30]
B
Well.
- [04:31]
A
And we're here today to talk about, like, my favorite thing in romance, which is, like, criminals and noble scoundrels. Like, I do feel like that is the cornerstone.
- [04:43]
B
I was trying to lead her there, Sarah, but you were just like, let me tell everybody.
- [04:46]
A
That's the topic. It's fine. A dance around it.
- [04:51]
C
Right.
- [04:52]
A
There's very few people, I think, in the industry who love a criminal the way you and I love a criminal.
- [04:58]
B
Right.
- [04:59]
C
I mean, that's really the backbone of Shoop's whole oeuvre is, you know, none of those tycoons were good people, as we can all see now, like, that much wealth in one person. But, yeah, so for me, it's always been the redemption arc of the criminal, of the. The bad guy, the, you know, the wealthy asshole.
- [05:31]
B
Right.
- [05:32]
A
Suffer. Make them suffer.
- [05:34]
C
Yes. Yeah.
- [05:36]
A
But it's interesting, right, Because I think so. I've been talking a lot recently about this, like, how I have recently come to understand, like, my core story is constantly thinking about characters who are born into nobility versus characters who live a noble life, like, who act with nobility, and how those two things are not the same. In fact, often. And like, in our cases, I think we have both written a lot of criminals who, like, act who do crime, but do it right, do it with nobility. And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the balance of writing contemporary criminals versus.
- [06:21]
C
Well, I think you have to find redeeming qualities about them and sort of exploit them as much as you can. But they, you know. Yes, they're terrible people. And the hope is that through the heroine's eyes and through the journey of this person falling in love, that they can become likable. I don't know that they ever. They. They don't become good people or people you'd want to know, but. But I think that's part of the challenge of writing the contemporary side, the historical. I feel like you can get away with a little more wackiness and a little more. You could play with it a little bit more. Yeah, but contemporary has to be grounded a little bit more in reality. So for me, setting them in Italy helps, I think, and having them be actual, you know, the reality of it is that is a real mafia group that exists. Like, it's not something I made up, and there's a hierarchy and there's a whole world behind it, but then I can play with it as much as I want. Within that structure, I think, is how I come at it.
- [07:48]
B
Romance has always loved a criminal, right? Like, especially. But like a kind of criminal, where it's like, property crimes. What I would consider her, right, Like Robin Hood.
- [07:57]
C
Right.
- [07:57]
B
Like, we all love Robin Hood or like, those types of stories versus, like, crimes against people. But I think the other thing I was thinking about a lot was in Justine's book, which is one of my favorites, she thinks she wants to be a cop. And I think one of the other things that I find really interesting in your books is that how explicit it is that, like, these are just. People are doing crimes on both sides.
- [08:26]
C
It's right.
- [08:27]
B
Like the cops. And, you know, in, you know, in Italy, for example, in the first book, were, like, setting up, you know, her father or.
- [08:37]
C
Right.
- [08:37]
B
Like. So I think the other thing that I've found is really useful is if it's just like, good guys, bad guys, and the good guys are like, default, the cops, which is what it was in a lot of romance for a Long time to explicitly name, like, like. No. In fact, there is a history of crime in which the cops are. Are just the others doing crimes of a different kind on the other side. Right. So I think that that is something that then makes it a lot easier to sort of. I don't know, like. Right. I think it. By removing that, like, binary, you know, that like, all criminals are bad guys, the law is always good and. Right. Like, we just. That's such a. I don't know, like, a lot of legal things are. Are actually highly immoral.
- [09:29]
C
Yes. Yeah. And I think the more you see of the world, you know that there are. There are quote, unquote, good people doing bad things. I mean, there really is no. There's nobody who is above corruption. There's nobody that, you know.
- [09:51]
A
So.
- [09:52]
C
Yes, that. Especially in Italy, they're always bribing the local. Local police. And so that does make it easier because it's just shades of gray at that point.
- [10:05]
A
So one of the things that I'm really interested in in your book. So obviously we are. We're here to talk about a very particular kind of book, and we're going to get into why those books work so well, which is, you know, a big piece of this puzzle. But at first, I want to talk about what's going on in the real world right now and your TikToks slash newsletters, slash Instagram videos. Because I think immediately following the election, so many of us were like, how do we. What do we do?
- [10:41]
B
Right?
- [10:42]
A
How do we combat this? How do we stand up? What do we say? That's not just part of the noise. And I think you instantly honed in on what we are doing now. What is happening today has happened before. And so while I am constantly telling people to subscribe to your newsletter and to follow you on social media, but one of the things that I think is really interesting is watching your videos makes me always feel like, okay, we've been here before. Like, is there maybe we can survive it? Right. And so I wonder, could you talk a little bit about the. The work of why you chose this path as Joanna Shoup? And also the work of it, everything.
- [11:37]
C
That was coming out post election, I was like, yep, I know that. I know that. I know this playbook. I got that. Yep, we've had that. Yeah. So it all felt very familiar.
- [11:47]
A
Yep.
- [11:49]
C
From the extreme wealth to the tariffs to the political corruption to. I mean, I could just go on the immigration. You know, the dog whistles, the immigration, the rolling back, the reproductive rights for women. It's all so interconnected and it's just a playbook we have seen before. Now, on some level, it does make me feel better because, you know, we evolved. We got to the point of the Civil Rights act, you know, they taxed the rich. We, you know, we had the boom of the middle class. But it, first of all, it's depressing that no less, no lessons were learned. So that's a little sad. But also, it didn't work out for everybody. I mean, we have, you know, decades of Jim Crow in the south where horrific violence is committed against African Americans. We have, you know, women who probably died from no longer being able to get reproductive care. We have the whole rise of the eugenics movement which leads to what happens in Nazi Germany. So, you know, queer people being persecuted, they're, they're a lot of people weren't. Okay. So on some level, it makes me very fearful for the rabbit hole that I know can easily spin from where we are now. Easily. So I, I, I do feel sort of obligated to point out, like, hey, I know you're hearing a lot about tariffs. Let me tell you about tariffs from, you know, whatever. I know you're hearing a lot about. Like, the one that I just put out yesterday was about this all white community that they've started in Arkansas, which is based on an all white community in South Africa. And so on some level it feels like, oh, that's a terrible thing, which it is, and I expect it to be challenged in court. But you know, with sundown towns and redlining and racist covenants, I mean, we've seen how these all white towns were created, you know, in the 1910s, 20s, 30s, up until the Fair Housing act in the 60s. I mean, so that was what yesterday's newsletter was about.
- [14:32]
B
I mean, and these are things, like, to be honest and everybody listen, if you are like, I don't know what those things are. I mean, you don't, it is okay to like, sort of say that and like, then go learn, right? Like, these are things that, you know, often are not taught in schools because, you know, like, for whatever. I mean, we can get into the why, but, you know, so like, white people are very bad about talking about like a racist history that benefited them. It just to sort of like, well, I, you know, so, you know, like sundown towns essentially were like places all throughout our country where essentially very wealthy people had, you know, black maids and domestics in the house and then they like had to leave town by the time it got dark or else the Klan would sort of pick them up. And, you know, these are. You could find lists of these online. Like, they are all over our country. This is not just, I think, another South.
- [15:29]
C
Oh, they were mostly in the north.
- [15:30]
B
Yeah.
- [15:31]
C
In the, in the west, actually.
- [15:33]
B
Right, right. And, you know, or. Or redlining. Right. Like, sort of the banks drew maps about where black people could live and then like, essentially funded home loans differently in different places. So these are things that are so hidden in a lot of schools that white people go to that the reason that they can all get repeated and these same things can happen is because people don't even know. I mean, I. I think I've told this story maybe or maybe not on the podcast. Like, one of my son's friends grew up in Gross Point, Michigan, which is kind of famously one of the most redlined parts of, like, the world. It's literally like there's a wall between it and Detroit. And it is. And she grew up there. And I sort of mentioned redlining once, and she's like, I don't know what that is. And I was like, but how is that possible? You would not know. It defines redlining, almost. Right. So, you know, if you don't know, we will put some links in show notes, we'll put links to Joanna's things. Like, but like, if you don't know, now is the time to, to listen and learn. Right.
- [16:43]
C
Yeah. I mean, you know, that's. No. Lessons learned by where we've been in history is. That's. That's purposeful. They've hidden a lot of, A lot of this stuff in history class because they are ashamed to talk about it.
- [16:58]
A
One of the things I've been really worried about and thinking about a lot about in relationship to the world in general. And I've been watching the kind of decline of historical and the argument that, like, historical is declining for a million different reasons.
- [17:12]
B
Right.
- [17:13]
A
But it's interesting because I do think historical is one of those places in romance where some of us, and I would say a significant number of us now are doing this work, like, talking about this history, the history of the Gilded Age, the history of the robber barons, the history of, you know, police brutality and police corruption, the history of women's ish, you know, reproductive rights, the history of all of these things. And so I worry, of course, that, like, as we lose. I learned, for example, about a lot of Reconstruction era United States in my, like, white town in Rhode island from Beverly Jenkins. Like.
- [17:58]
B
Right.
- [17:58]
A
I just did. Right. And so I worry about the way that romance is sort of no longer digging deep into these issues and producing a book that is about something more than two people kissing. Do you feel like when you sit down to your historicals, you're, like, thinking about that now?
- [18:24]
C
I mean, yes, to be honest, when I wrote the Gilded Heiress, I was like, okay, we are not writing anybody who is, you know, titled. We're not writing anybody who is rich.
- [18:36]
A
And.
- [18:37]
C
And I'm just there. I'm not. Usually with every book I write, I. There's like a deep. There's like, an overarching issue that I want to dig down into. Either the Chinese exclusionary act or, you know, women's reproductive rights, blah, blah, blah. And this one, I was like, I'm not like, this is going to be just a fun sort of adventure story with these two people who are both, like, trying to find a family and just found family and. And coming from the backgrounds they come from, you know, very lower class, you know, I would. There was no real issue that I was going to dig into.
- [19:21]
A
Yeah, but then you delivered an issue, right? Like, the wealth is there, class is.
- [19:27]
C
Yeah. Okay, good, good. I believe you. I believe you. Yeah, I guess that's true.
- [19:36]
B
The thing that's always really interesting to me about reading Historical is even if that is the case, right. The kinds of ways that we, like, interact with our siblings or the lists of, you know, things that we're supposed to do or not do. The expectations on women or girls in a family versus boys in a family. Right. Like, all of that stuff, in some ways, I remember, and I think it is in this book, too, like, feeling very kind of moved by the idea that, like, okay, listen, for hundreds of years, girls have been like, but wait, why does my brother have to do anything?
- [20:14]
A
You know what I mean?
- [20:17]
B
Or whatever. And so I do think that even when it's not doing a big thing, I think it is still doing a thing, which is like, reminding us that there's a lot of ways in which we're still fighting the forces of society are slow to change.
- [20:34]
A
Well, it's interesting, right, because I think both Joanna and I have received, over the years, like, many, many notes from readers or reviews from readers that say this is historically inaccurate. These heroines would never do. Fill in the blank.
- [20:52]
B
Right, Right.
- [20:53]
A
And I think, like, there are two things going on there. One is you are not paying attention to history because I've never written anything that I haven't been able to prove happened in the past. Right. But I think the other piece of it is, like, what you want the pat why? What you want the past to have been is not. You want it to be white, you want it to be super gendered. You want it to be regressive and conservative.
- [21:25]
C
Right?
- [21:26]
A
And I think when readers come to historical and they don't get that, there is a real sense of like, well, what are these people? What are these writers trying to do? Why are they trying to stick politics into my books? This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Amy Andrews, Pippa Roscoe, Rachel Stewart and Claire Connelly, authors of the Karma Club series.
- [21:53]
B
Okay, I love this when fate strands four complete strangers at o' Hare airport during a snowstorm. Sadly, that could happen. Everybody. Little do they know their misfortune is about to turn into the ultimate opportunity for payback. Fueled by Prosecco and the last waiting table in the entire airport, these four women bond over shared tales of heartbreak and betrayal. And you will get each of their stories in one of these books written by these authors. So the Karma Club. Essentially, they commiserate over their exes and they form a dare daring plan to turn the tables on the men who wronged them.
- [22:29]
A
I love this, obviously.
- [22:30]
B
So they essentially concoct a scheme to exact sweet revenge. They're going to expose a cheat or take down a Peter Pan with commitment issues. These ladies are prepared to serve up justice with a side of sass. But as they dive deeper, they soon realize that their carefully crafted schemes may have unforeseen consequences, most notably love. So over the course of the year that the books take place over the will discover the true meaning of friendship, love and the power of forgiveness. And of course, many romantic twists and turns and unexpected happily ever afters.
- [23:08]
A
Well, if you love this idea, I love a bunch of shenanigans. Revenge shenanigans. Then you're going to love the Karma Club. The most recent book in the series is the Payback Plan, which is a brand new spicy revenge romance from Amy Andrews. If you want more information about the Karma Club, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to the by the book. But all four of the books are available right now in Kindle Unlimited. Thanks to Amy Andrews, Pippa Roscoe, Rachel Stewart and Claire Connelly for sponsoring this week's episode. So let's get into why historicals and contemporaries. But I think that it's trickier in contemporary. Right. Like we see a lot of of criminals and contemporary who are living outside of like a moral compass.
- [24:02]
B
Right.
- [24:03]
A
But I think I'm interested in particularly in the Gilded Heiress and in other Historicals. I want to talk about here, these heroes who are criminals, Right? Because I think they come from a long line of, like, historical criminals. Right. Like, there's a reason why we love a highwayman.
- [24:24]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [24:25]
A
And there's a reason why we love a pirate. Like, there are. But these are, like, rogues, right?
- [24:31]
B
Like.
- [24:32]
A
And so I wonder, could we talk a little bit about, like, the appeal of the criminal, the rogue.
- [24:40]
C
The scoundrel.
- [24:40]
A
The scoundrel.
- [24:41]
B
Scoundrel.
- [24:42]
A
But like, a real, like, people who do crime. I will tell you that initially that on our schedule of, like, we. We keep everybody. Surprise, surprise. We do. We do. Despite all appearances, we do actually keep a schedule of what we're recording on this podcast. And here there is. We have a list. We have you on the podcast. And it says Joanna Shute, parentheses, tariffs, question mark. Because we were like, at some point, you did a thing about tariffs. And I. And then I was like, wait a second. Like, that's what we've been like. I've written smugglers. I've written, like, I wrote a whole series about smugglers. And they were doing it because of terrorists. I mean, guess what's not sexy?
- [25:31]
C
Tariffs.
- [25:32]
B
Tariffs. That's why there was a question mark, everybody. So I wonder.
- [25:39]
A
So this is the thing, right? Like, our criminals do crime for.
- [25:46]
B
A.
- [25:46]
A
Political reason, maybe small p. Political.
- [25:51]
C
I mean, on some level, you want to see somebody from the outside stick it to the establishment. I mean.
- [26:00]
B
Yeah, I think I would agree with that.
- [26:02]
C
Right. Yeah. We like to see, like, the establishment taken down a couple pegs, the police taken down a couple pegs, The Robin Hood, you know, rich people taking down a couple pegs.
- [26:15]
A
Even. Interestingly, I was thinking about Bow Street Runners. Like, I was thinking about Lisa Claypas series and even BO street runners feel like outside of cops in some way. Right. Because they were vigilante justice in a certain. Like, once you get into Scotland Yard, very few people touch that without blowing it up.
- [26:42]
C
Right. And because your hands are tied. So the Bow street runners are able to sort of work outside the law.
- [26:49]
A
Bend the rules, or Felicia Grossman's, like, Pinkerton's.
- [26:55]
C
It's a little bit competence porn, maybe. Like, they can do anything.
- [27:00]
B
Yeah, I would agree. Yeah.
- [27:02]
C
You know, if you're sort of bound by the rules, that's pretty unsexy and boring.
- [27:07]
A
Yeah.
- [27:09]
C
You know.
- [27:09]
B
Well, and I often think that's, like, part of the profile of these guys is like, they. They tried to do it on the straight and narrow, but washed out. Because they were a scoundrel. Right. And now they have no chance. They have no choice but to be a Bow Street Runner.
- [27:24]
A
They were born into crime.
- [27:27]
B
Correct?
- [27:27]
A
Right.
- [27:30]
B
Correct.
- [27:31]
C
You know, we love a lock picker. A lock. We love a jewel thief.
- [27:37]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [27:38]
C
Heist. Yeah, yeah. I mean, anybody with special skills, perhaps involving their hands.
- [27:51]
A
Do you think this is an American thing? Why do you think this is culturally American, this appeal? I asked this. I mean, I don't. This is. I don't have an answer to this. That I'm literally just. I just had this question in my head right now because it feels like. Is it like Lone Ranger? Like. Like a man on an island? Maybe the three of us are not qualified to answer this as, like, two Midwesterners, but I guess the Mafia exists, right?
- [28:25]
C
I mean, those characters are popular in popular culture. You know, the sort of. He can't be bound by.
- [28:32]
B
Right?
- [28:33]
A
John Wick.
- [28:33]
B
You killed his dog, and now, what the fuck, right? He has no choice but to kill everybody else. The entire world must go down because the dead dog.
- [28:44]
C
Americans, I think we like to think of ourselves as rebels. We don't play by the rules. You know, we're. Yeah, right.
- [28:54]
B
Well.
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A
And look where it got us.
- [28:55]
C
Look where. Look where it got us. Yeah. You know, there's the wild, wild west elsewhere.
- [29:01]
B
Jin. Okay, great.
- [29:04]
C
I love him so much.
- [29:06]
A
Why do I love him so much?
- [29:07]
C
He's the worst. Worst. But we love him.
- [29:11]
A
Oh, my God. Or is it just that, like, everybody who ends up writing historicals and loving historicals is just. Just needs to go to the same therapist?
- [29:22]
C
Romance.
- [29:23]
B
Could you imagine if there was a romance therapist?
- [29:25]
A
Oh, my God. They would be in business forever.
- [29:30]
B
Amazing. Okay, tell us about the Gilded Heiress, then. Tell us about Leo and Josie.
- [29:38]
C
Yeah.
- [29:38]
B
The.
- [29:38]
C
The premise from the book is an Anastasia retelling set in the Gilded Age. I really wanted to get outside of New York, so for, like, a hot minute, they're in Boston because I just.
- [29:54]
B
And then you went right back into New York.
- [29:56]
A
I gotta get back.
- [29:57]
C
I gotta get back. No offense, Boston, but this is enough. But I really wanted to explore, you know, early Broadway, early vaudeville. I wanted her to have a special talent. So she is a fantastic singer. Again, they could not be wealthy. They had to be sort of these scrappy, make your way in the world. Josie is an orphan. She doesn't know who her. You know, raised in an orphanage, doesn't know her family and goes out on the street to sing for money. And Leo has a family, but is after the death of his father. You know, they're raised very sort of lower. Lower classes had to always struggle for money. He ran with a bunch of boys on the street, you know, learned how to. How to basically con people and sees her on the street and thinks of a scheme where he can make. Possibly make some money and also get revenge on the family that. That really screwed over his family.
- [31:10]
A
So, you know, you didn't. You didn't you say. You didn't think, like, oh, I'm gonna tell a story about. But maybe you're just. It's impossible for you not to tell a story about. Right? But I think that this class issue is real fascinating because Leo's fam. Leo's father died penniless, unable to work because of a very, like, clear injustice. This wealthy family thought he had taken this ba. The essentially the Lindbergh baby had kidnapped a child, right? And so he became unemployable. Like, he couldn't find work. He couldn't. I mean, he was destroyed. And there's no evidence, no retirement.
- [31:57]
C
There's no pension, there's no retirement. I mean, there's no social safety net.
- [32:02]
A
So this is why Leo becomes so forgivable as a con artist, right? Is like, he's the eldest son of a man who has been ruined by injustice. So we forgive him for all of it.
- [32:19]
C
Listen, he's got five or six sisters to support.
- [32:22]
B
Yeah, right, exactly. Like, he's the one taking care of.
- [32:25]
A
Just the best man, con artist, whatever, saving his sisters, being great at going down.
- [32:41]
C
Always.
- [32:42]
B
Sarah just has a very specific type. Everybody and Joanna knows exactly how to write it.
- [32:47]
C
And here. Here we are in the middle of it. That's the only kind of hero I want.
- [32:53]
A
Exactly. Deeply noble, loves his sisters, likes to have a meal.
- [33:02]
B
One of the funny things about Fated Bates live in St. Louis is someone said, you guys should record yourselves. And I was like, like a video. And I was like, why would we do that? And they're like, well, I didn't really realize just how specific your faces were when Sarah said the things she said until now. And I was like, okay, fair. Okay. So that's Leo. And so basically he hears Josie singing and. And sees this as an opportunity to, like, sort of. Like, what I liked about this scene was this sense of. And I feel like it's true of a lot of good, like, noble criminals, like, sort of is like they've got a bunch of irons in the fire, a bunch of things they're trying to get done. And then there are times when something happens and essentially everything just, like, clicks into place, right? Like, so Something about hearing her sing allows him to kind of, like, all of a sudden, a lot of disparate things kind of lock into place, and he can see a path forward by which he can achieve everything he wants. And the only trick is gonna be that she can't know that he essentially is, like, using her. Right.
- [34:22]
A
Yeah. He's conning her, too. Cause doesn't he say he wants to take her to make her a star in New York, but it's because he recognizes or he sees that there's a familial resemblance.
- [34:33]
C
Right. And he can get his hands on the reward money for the missing. You know, this family who lost their child decades before has still offered this ginormous reward for her return. And he thinks he can pass Josie off as this missing heiress and basically fleece this family into the reward money and take her along for the ride.
- [35:00]
B
Yeah. And in a very real way, back to Sarah's whole, like, is he even a con man? He feels in some ways that this would be justified. Like, this is the family that did his. Right. Like, he would have no interest in this if it wasn't for the fact that, like, these are the people who made his father and therefore the lives of his family, so miserable, so untenable. So it's. It's a really quite like setup because it really. We can see the way in which Leo is kind of like, you know, if this all works out, everybody comes out better off everybody.
- [35:39]
C
Right.
- [35:40]
B
Nobody lose. This is nobody. This is a situation where nobody loses. How lucky for me.
- [35:45]
C
But of course, right? They get their daughter back.
- [35:48]
A
Yep.
- [35:49]
C
She gets to be this heiress and live just a life that is unfathomable. And he gets the reward money.
- [35:58]
A
Except once she's an heiress, she can't marry a con man.
- [36:05]
B
So what?
- [36:07]
C
This is true? This is true.
- [36:14]
B
Oh, I love it. Oh, God, I love it.
- [36:17]
A
I love revenge.
- [36:18]
B
I love it. You do love revenge.
- [36:22]
C
It's the best. Yeah.
- [36:25]
B
So the other thing that's really interesting and notable about this historical is that it is written in first person.
- [36:31]
C
Yes.
- [36:33]
B
So do you want to talk a little bit about what it was like to write historical in first person and why you felt it was the right thing for this particular story?
- [36:42]
C
Well, I just kept thinking, Jen is really going to love.
- [36:45]
B
It was really good, everybody. So it's fine. First person's fine. It's present tense. How can I really give present tense here?
- [36:53]
C
It's present tense.
- [36:55]
B
Present tense is my problem. Okay.
- [36:57]
A
Also, single POV is becoming your problem, but.
- [37:00]
B
Oh, that's everybody's problem. Like, let's be.
- [37:02]
A
But this is not single pov. This is dual pov.
- [37:04]
B
Yeah.
- [37:07]
C
You know, I really felt. Well, first of all, I think that is the way that the market just in general is trending in romance. I write the finale books in first person, dual pov. So I felt like it was something I wanted to try. I did ask my editor first, and she was like, great, go for it. And I think on some level, I have seen with the Finelli books that writing it in first person allows you to get away with things because you're in the criminal's head and they can justify what they're doing more than if you're perhaps in third person. So because I knew Leo was going to be a con man, I thought it made sense to try to do it in first person. That perhaps the reader would empathize with him a little more because we're really deep in his perspective.
- [38:11]
B
So.
- [38:12]
C
So I. That's. That's where I was coming from.
- [38:17]
B
Yeah. I mean, because it's like if somebody is conning someone else or doing crime or doing wrong, right? Like, being able to sort of really sink into, like, what. How they justify it or explain it to themselves or whatever. Right. When I think of first person in a historical time setting, it does then require a kind of adherence to.
- [38:39]
A
I don't know.
- [38:40]
B
Or fidelity to, like, language or kinds of ways of thinking. And like, that, I think, feels potentially intuitive, right? Like the world building ask. I think it would be bigger in first person in a historical.
- [38:53]
C
Oh, interesting.
- [38:54]
B
And so I'm curious if you felt that way. And I guess what I mean by that is like, I'm gonna tell. This is like, okay, this. I'm gonna tell an example. When I was in college, I was reading.
- [39:07]
A
I don't know.
- [39:07]
B
It's like the Nord Anthology version of the Iliad, right? It's clearly in translation from the original Greek. Achilles calls, Hector, tells them, you know, whatever. So something about, like, your head's, like, empty like a wet noodle. And even I was like, would he say that? You know, come on. Right? And I feel like. So I feel like in. In first person, right? Like slang, right? Like, things that maybe would feel like normal in the voice of a character of that time frame are not gonna, like, sort of sit the same way with, like, a reader now. You know what I mean? How do you manage, like, writing a voice, right, that feels like it could be kind of. Right. That could work for a reader in 2025, but also work for a character in 1878.
- [40:07]
C
I think word choice becomes really important, but you still want to make it accessible to anybody who's reading it now. So I think especially with characters that are not born wealthy, they probably sound a little more familiar to people today than. Than the upper crust, which.
- [40:31]
B
Interesting.
- [40:31]
C
You know, if you've watched HBO's the Gilded Age, you know, they do not speak with contractions and they're, you know.
- [40:39]
B
Right.
- [40:39]
C
Words that even. I have to go, holy shit, what did that mean? Like, I have to go. I have to go Google it, you know, because I don't know what. What they're talking about. But so I think, I think the lower classes, their vernacular and their, you know, manner of speaking and the words they use, everything would. Would feel a little more like what we know today. So I tried to make it not. So I want to say erudite, proper. Yeah, right. Like just kind of bring it. It to something more recognizable that we would know with, you know, obviously not using words that. And phrases that. That weren't invented at the time.
- [41:30]
B
But yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's it. Like, like slang and other kinds of speech often have the. In a historical. If it's in like first person, I guess, or in the person's like, speech will really send me off onto a. You know, I mean, I. There was a book and it was historical. Yeah, yeah, right. Where someone talked about like, not wanting to beat a dead horse. And this was an upper class. An upper class person and like a young woman. And I really was like, this was not in your book. And I was like. And I really, like, kind of like had to stop and think about it for a while. And I was like, okay, so did this phrase exist? Would this be a phrase, like, if this was like a person who worked in a stable, maybe they would say, like, right. Like, is this a person familiar with horse racing? And so, I mean, I really did like, find myself and then I literally never went back to the book. Like, it stopped me in my track. So it's interesting to think about like, world building. We're so used to like kind of the world building of historical. But I think first person as a voice just requires a kind of world building.
- [42:45]
A
Yeah, maybe. Well, you're also moving. With beating a dead horse, you're moving into the Tiffany problem. Right. Which is people who, if you were to name a historical romance heroine Tiffany.
- [43:00]
B
Everybody would be like, what the fuck?
- [43:02]
A
This is a crazy name for somebody in the 1800s. But the reality is like, the Tiffany extends back to like the 1500s. Like, it's been a name for many, many years, but like, like beating a dead horse is a thing, for example. And this is, this is real historical problem now. Like, we are.
- [43:21]
B
Yeah, I would imagine, right?
- [43:23]
A
We struggle. I'm sure you do too, Joanna. But like, I, I spent a lot of time going like, well, I know that's a legitimate phrase, but if I write it, are people going to be. Am I going to get letters? Right, you guys, I spent a lot of time going like, I just don't want the letters.
- [43:41]
C
Letters. Well, it's hard because so many of those phrases are in our. I mean, we are. We use every day. They're in our lexicon. I mean, you know, it's hard. It's hard to think like, oh, shit, like that. What? You know, that didn't exist back then because it's just sometimes if I miss it by a decade, I may let it slide.
- [44:07]
A
Oh, for sure.
- [44:10]
B
This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Maureen Lee Lenkers, author of His Girl Hollywood.
- [44:17]
A
All right, so this one is a second chance, but my favorite kind because it's childhood friends to enemies. Ish to lovers. So we know Maureen always sets her books against the kind of backdrop of the glittering silver screen of 1930s Hollywood. Arlene Morgan is our heroine and she has always dreamed of being a movie director like so many women in the silent film era. But when she finally gets herself shot, which is incredibly rare, she also discovers that the leading man she's been assigned to because of the studio system is none other than Don Lamont, who she knows as Don Lazzarini, who was her next door neighbor growing up when they were in New York and they had, they were best friends, they had big dreams, they were going to stick together the whole time. Except suddenly, when they were a little bit older, he abandoned her to pursue a dance career in New York and she never heard from him again. So she' pretty brokenhearted about that. Except here's the thing. He's had this immense Broadway success, but the reason why is because he's been under the thumb of his gangster manager for eight years and he hasn't been able to come home because he didn't want to get everybody from the block, like, back mixed up in his troubles. But now he's out in Hollywood and he is clashing with Arlene and he is finding that all those old wounds are coming back to the surface and he's worried that if he gets too close to her, that gangster manager is going to get in the mix and Things aren't going to go so well.
- [45:57]
B
So listen, I love a classic Hollywood historical. What a treat. So if you're interested in His Girl Hollywood, it is available in print, ebook or audio, wherever books are sold. And you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Maureen Lee Linker for sponsoring this week's Episode in a Historical Written and third Past. I'm maybe only going to really pay attention to the dialogue with that level of awareness, but in a book in first person, I'm also going to be thinking their exam. Like thinking about their thoughts in that way, maybe.
- [46:38]
A
Right, right.
- [46:40]
B
So it's. It's the whole text then, not just the thing. And so, I mean, I think, but at the same time, I would imagine, and I would. That it was also probably really fun to inhabit a character in that way as well. Right. Like there's. It's reward. It's like benefit and reward anytime you challenge yourself in a new way of writing.
- [47:03]
A
Yeah. Did you feel like, what was that process for you? Like, were you. Did you feel like it was a natural move to first person or were you constantly sort of reminding, like. Like, I feel like in historical, it's so rare.
- [47:19]
C
I feel like it was natural just because I had been. I've been writing the Finelli books that way that I feel like I sort of get it and it works. And I just felt like I wanted to try it in historical and because of the. The subject matter of, of the book, like I said. But it does change what the character sees in that respect. So like when they're riding the carriage and they're in New York for the first time, she is looking at the advertisements on the side of the buildings. Like, it does change the level of minutiae, I think that the character sees and feels and smells and, and experiences. But I also found that I loved being able to sprinkle in little details, whereas in third person, perhaps I wouldn't have bothered to put that in.
- [48:21]
B
Right. Yeah. That's really fun. Right. Like. Right. What would Josie see or pay attention to versus what Leah would see or pay attention to? And then that becomes something really interesting about their character. Do you love Anastasia? Is that why you started with Anastasia? I feel like that's like a really interesting. I love it.
- [48:40]
C
So Anastasia was my editor's idea because she's a big fan of that. I do love it. I love the movie. I also really love the Lindbergh Baby story. So, like, I'm just like a huge, like Lindbergh Baby True junkie.
- [49:01]
A
Do you have a theory? Do you have a theory, Joanna Shue?
- [49:04]
B
I.
- [49:06]
C
I see. I would make a terrible juror because I can be swayed by literally any argument. So I feel like whatever you saw last. Yes. I mean, whatever. Like the last. I mean, I've, I've seen so many theory, heard so many theories and us. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't want to say because any other day it could change, but so for me, like, I loved mixing Anastasia with the Lindbergh baby. That for me was like. And exploring, you know, what, what would a lost heiress, you know, what her life would be like and how weird it would be to come back and, and, you know, to come back to the fold, so to speak. So, yeah, yeah. But we can always discuss theories on the Lindbergh baby at a later time.
- [50:03]
B
I don't think I even. I, I only have the vaguest understanding of the Lindberg baby story, so I'll have to do some research before I have a theory.
- [50:14]
A
Well, do you want to give every. Joanna, why don't you give everybody like a little primer on the Lindbergh baby?
- [50:20]
C
Oh, okay.
- [50:21]
A
For those people who don't know.
- [50:23]
C
Okay, so I. Right. This is me assuming everybody knows history and.
- [50:28]
B
Well, this is sort of a weird.
- [50:30]
A
Little bit of history.
- [50:32]
C
Yes. Right. Okay. So Charles Lindbergh, who was a terrible person, Nazi sympathizer, but also a good pilot, a very good pilot, was the first one to circle the globe or.
- [50:47]
A
The first to do the Magellan of Flight.
- [50:50]
C
I don't know if he was the first one to circle the globe, but anyway, he was some important pilot. He was a big time celebrity. Big time right around like the first World War, ish, I think, and had a child, was living out in the suburbs and one night the baby disappears. There's a ladder outside the window. There is no sign of the child. The family calls the police and the police completely bungle the investigation. I mean, they. Any evidence is, you know, stepped on or ruined or. I mean, it's just a complete case study on how not to handle a police investigation. So the baby is missing for a long time. There's rewards that are offered up and there's clues. And then each. And if you've ever seen or read Murder on the Orient Express by Agatha Christie, the crime that is that the one, isn't it? Murder on the Orient Express or is it Death on the Nile that. That where it's. That with the Lindbergh baby is like all the, The Staff. Okay. You guys are both looking at me like.
- [52:10]
B
I'm.
- [52:10]
C
Like I'm crazy. I'm really down.
- [52:14]
B
The one where they, like. Isn't that like two strangers on a train kind of thing? Like where they agreed. I don't know.
- [52:20]
A
It is. It's. It is Murder on the Orange Express.
- [52:24]
C
Right. So they are all staff members from this baby that was taken and. And killed. But anyway, to make a very long story even longer, the Lindbergh baby, the child was eventually found, killed not far from the house. Decomposed. There's never been a true answer to who perpetuated the crime, even though somebody was arrested for it. Bruto Helpman, who was a local low, low level con artist, so. But there's a lot of proof that perhaps he didn't do it. So, anyway, it's a very, very interesting case if you're a true crime fan.
- [53:12]
A
Right?
- [53:13]
C
That's the one.
- [53:14]
B
I do like a true crime where everybody's dead. It feels a little less icky for me.
- [53:19]
C
Yes, yes.
- [53:20]
A
Well, also, this is very old. It's like. Oh, yeah, that's my point.
- [53:24]
B
Yeah, exactly. Right. Like it's. There's no one left behind.
- [53:28]
C
Right.
- [53:28]
A
Well, I thought you meant. See, I misunderstood. I thought you meant where the people in the true crime are all dead.
- [53:33]
B
No, I mean, like, when people do. And I was like, jen, it's a. Yeah, that's from.
- [53:38]
A
But now I understand. Now I'm on the level with you, Jen.
- [53:44]
B
Listen, the Gilded Heirs is a really fun book, everybody. I think you'll have a great time. We haven't even really talked about the Broadway stuff. But that was some of my favorite parts of the book, too. Like, kind of like, what does it take to become, like, famous and. Right. Like, sort of the whole. You know, just because you have a skill doesn't mean you're gonna be a star. And a lot of that kind of stuff that was also really fun outside of, like, sort of the plot about what's gonna happen once Leo convinces his family that she is the Lindbergh baby, but not the Lindberghs.
- [54:16]
C
Okay.
- [54:17]
B
All right. So other books that you wanna recommend.
- [54:20]
A
Sarah, I feel like I cut you.
- [54:21]
B
Off in one second.
- [54:22]
A
Before we get to that, though, I wanna talk about life, like, on the level. When we're talking about criminals, like, what are our favorite kinds? Like, are we into, like, if we had to rank them, like, high women pirates.
- [54:41]
C
I love a blackmailer.
- [54:44]
A
Really Interesting. All right.
- [54:46]
C
I love a blackmailer.
- [54:47]
A
Okay. I mean, con artists are obviously terrific because they have, like, a Very sharp, sharp brain. You want, like, somebody very smart.
- [54:58]
B
I do love a, like, revenge fueled. Some sort of theft fueled by revenge.
- [55:04]
A
Like a heist. Like an Ocean's Thirteen style.
- [55:08]
B
Yeah. Or like in Annual Diamonds where it's like in k. So in K.J. charles's annual diamonds, he is essentially trying to like, steal from his. One of the heroes is trying to like, steal kind of from his own family. Right. And I. I do love that. So I. I do love it when the thievery has like, an emotional component.
- [55:31]
A
Behind it besides just.
- [55:32]
C
Or like a noble purpose.
- [55:34]
A
A noble purpose for love.
- [55:38]
B
A la Cresley.
- [55:39]
A
Cole's the player. My favorite of the Kressley Cole oeuvre.
- [55:43]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [55:45]
A
Mafia. Mafia.
- [55:47]
B
Light.
- [55:47]
A
Really? I would say about those books, we don't really get into it.
- [55:52]
B
You know what's funny is because you said pirates, and I read a lot of pirate books when I was younger, but they are not my favorite now. I would not. It's been such a long time since.
- [56:02]
A
I'm ready because I think for a long time pirates were big. And then pirates became tricky because of the time period and the whole like. Like slave. The trade.
- [56:19]
B
The slave trade, sure.
- [56:21]
A
And then. And now we don't see that many pirates. Although Adriana recently wrote. Well, I guess it's not really pirate. It's just like smugglers on a boat.
- [56:33]
B
Bootleggers. Yeah.
- [56:35]
A
See, I love a bootlegger.
- [56:36]
B
I love.
- [56:37]
A
I mean, as we all know, I love a clever smuggler.
- [56:40]
B
You're avoiding taxes and tariffs. We like you. Exactly.
- [56:44]
A
Everybody these days, I think we should all be avoiding taxes. Taxes and tariffs.
- [56:48]
B
So.
- [56:50]
A
But then I think. And then it's like there was a shift in historicals. And when I started, people would say to you, like, put. Put your characters on a boat. You're going to ruin your career. So it was like that serious. You just didn't. Everybody. It was like having an orange cover. You just didn't get it.
- [57:10]
B
The in the devil of downtown and also the bare knuckle bastards I really like. We run this town. And then these are my people. Yeah. Right. Like so. Right. Like so the. There's like a kind of responsibility to the people. They.
- [57:29]
A
Sure. Fresh water. Like fresh food.
- [57:32]
C
Right, right.
- [57:33]
A
Lemon sweets.
- [57:35]
B
Yeah. You know, and like, nobody's gonna come for my people. And so I think that that is. Is often one of the things that I find really appealing is just like that idea.
- [57:45]
A
That's that sense of like a. A scoundrel's code.
- [57:49]
B
Right.
- [57:50]
A
Like, yeah, I will forgive Joanna's heroes In that Uptown Girl series, basically anything because they have a code where they protect their own.
- [58:06]
C
Yeah, the bare knuckle bastards do the same thing. Yeah.
- [58:09]
A
I mean, they're gonna, they're gonna rip the faces off of people, but not anybody they care about. And nobody. Here's the thing. Always up, always punching up. That's, I think, what it is about the. These criminals in a romance novel have to punch up for sure.
- [58:31]
C
For sure. They have to be out out to get the establishment or somebody wealthier or more powerful or corrupt.
- [58:40]
A
Louisa Darling's scoundrel Take Me Away, which is just recently out, is about a highwayman who's also a duke, who also has amnesia. Listen, it's amazing, Joanna. It is so good.
- [58:55]
C
It's really great.
- [58:56]
A
It's so good. But what's awesome about it is this guy's been a highwayman for three books, right? He's been sort of like shenaniganing in the background for three books. Books. And we've always noticed that, like he only steals from wealthy titled people. And like the big question is like, what does he do with the money? Like, where does it go? Why does he do it? Especially when we find out that he is simultaneously a duke, right? Like, what's his game? And I think that's really a feel. Like, listen, we all found our sexual awakening with that cartoon fox and now.
- [59:32]
C
Here we are, hand to God. That is absolutely true. Absolutely true.
- [59:43]
B
This week's episode of Faded Mates is.
- [59:45]
A
Brought to you by Lumi Gummies. Consistent, mellow and super delicious. Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day distressor a midday mood boost or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a drain that is right for you. And I gotta tell you, for the last couple of weeks I've been super sleepy in different time zones looking for a de stressor, flying, training, etc and gummies have been a great help through a lot of that. And then what I would say is last night, so I got home and I took a gummy before I went to bed and I slept. Great.
- [60:29]
B
See, I love it. Lumi Gummies are also available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com that's L U M I gummies.com and use the code faded mates for 30% off your order. Lumigummies.com code faded mates is the way to get to this great, very chill, very mellow experience, whether you are traveling or just sitting at home. So if your podcasting App supports it and you click on the chapter title. We will take you to their site. Thanks to Lumi Gummies for sponsoring this week's episode. One of my favorite, like, contemporary scoundrels is Davey Dempsey in Faking it by Jenny Cruze. And one of the things that's so in this. This is a sequel. Like, a sequel. The second book in the series, the first one is called welcome to Temptation.
- [61:24]
C
One of my favorites.
- [61:25]
B
And welcome to Temptation. To. Yeah, right, Like. And in welcome to Temptation, we meet the two sisters, right? Like, the first sister, Sophie. And she and their family have, like, a whole, like, way in which they essentially con people. They're con artists. And, you know, it's like there's like these five things I can't remember. And she's like, teaching, you know, teaching it to Finn's daughter. And you sort of like, realize this is like a family, like, deeply enmeshed in the idea of, like, conning. Like, that's just how you get through. And in Faking it, we get their brother Davey. And the thing that's really great. So we already are primed to know and, like, the fact that he's a con man and what happens is that he gets into a relationship with a woman named Matilda Goodnight, who owns an art gallery. And the thing that's really amazing and I don't want to spoil it, even though this book is like 20 years old, I don't want to spoil it because her family is also running a really long con, literally. And the reveal of, like, what her family is up to is probably like, one of my favorite reveals of in all of Romance. And part of the reason that it's so great is because you get Davey, who's kind of like, oh, I. I see. Good night, family.
- [62:49]
C
I was not familiar with your game, you know what I mean?
- [62:52]
B
And it is really like, I think an example of like, the exact kind of like, right, like, these are property crimes. And you know what I mean? It sort of like, doesn't feel like it's like hurting anybody. And this was right around, like, at the. In like 1999. It was like the Thomas Crown Affair. There was like a bunch of books that were kind of about or movies about, like, art heists and, you know what I mean, things like that. And I really think that, like, Davey Dempsey and Matilda Goodnight, like, this is a book, like, we talk so often about bet me. But like, this. I love this book. I love this book a lot. So it's like, also, I love, like, when, like, conning you Know, you can't con a con man, but somehow Devi really is just sort of like, wait, I thought I was the baddest one in this block. And look. Look what these folks are up to. I really loved it. So, yeah, I would say that that would be. If you're interested in, like, a contemporary. This would be a really good. These would be really fun to read.
- [63:59]
C
Doesn't Kerrigan Byrne have a lot of criminal heroes?
- [64:07]
A
Yeah, and they're all wrapped in revenge. Those books.
- [64:12]
C
Nobody writes dark revenge criminal heroes like Kerrigan. Verne.
- [64:17]
A
Here's the thing about Kerrigan's books. Talk about somebody who takes the finger, like, storytelling wise. Like, Kerrigan has no to give.
- [64:26]
B
Where.
- [64:26]
A
Where any one of the rest of us would be like, that feels like it might be too much. Kerrigan's like, no, you. I'm doing it. There is something very deeply lovely and old school about her book books, despite them not being old school at all.
- [64:42]
B
Right.
- [64:43]
C
And I'm sure you guys have talked about Duke of Sin a million times on the podcast, but that by Elizabeth Hoyt. That is Elizabeth White.
- [64:50]
B
Sure.
- [64:51]
C
Valentine is a blackmailer. I mean, I just love it. Like, he has all the secrets from all the important families, and he's blackmailing people, and then she gets, you know, a job to work in his. His household is his housekeeper. And I just love it.
- [65:08]
A
How about mediums? Fake mediums? Joanna Shoop, author of Baron.
- [65:16]
C
Yes. She is a con artist.
- [65:18]
A
She is a con artist. And I think there's, like, this is one of those things that, like, I love a fake medium because I love, like, the history of it, right? The sort of sense of, like, spiritualism and, like, how everything is, you know, I'm also Peaky Blinders fan, so I love the whole, like, sense of, like, is it real? Is it not? But then also this real sense of, like, these people are gonna take wealthy for all they are worth. And I really enjoy that.
- [65:53]
B
I.
- [65:53]
A
That is a. That is. Is essentially the plot of. Of Baron.
- [65:58]
C
Right, right. Where he see. He sees right through her.
- [66:02]
B
Yeah.
- [66:03]
C
From the job.
- [66:03]
A
I love a hero who's a gay.
- [66:04]
C
And it's just out. He's just outraged that she is trying to fleece, you know, people by pretending to speak to the dead.
- [66:15]
A
I mean, I will say this is one of those things where, like, it is a tricky. Listen, Baron is perfect. But I tried to write, like, one of my books in an early draft, had a kind of, like, she speaks to the dead. Fake. Like, she fake speaks to the. Speaks to the dead to, like, Punish somebody. And the edit. My editorial note was like, this is too mean. And I was like, okay. This is actually a really, really difficult needle to thread. So well done, Joanna Shute. Somebody else who does this in her. In a book is Kelly Bowen, who actually we recently talked about on the podcast. But her book, A Good Rogue is Hard to find. Is also a situation where the heroine. So there's like, the hero comes home from. Like, he's a total scoundrel and, like, has basically, like, lived his life perfect. He's had everything just delivered to him on a. A silver platter. And he comes home to his, like, eccentric mother, and her companion is like. He's pretty sure she's fleecing his mother and, like, faking, you know, conning his mother. And then she. And then it becomes clear that actually what's happening is she and his mother are working together as, like. As, like, lady Robin Hoods. And it makes him just, like, exasperated man is like, really on.
- [67:53]
B
Remember that.
- [67:54]
A
Oh, my God.
- [67:55]
B
It all comes back to me.
- [67:57]
A
Yeah, listen, Kelly Bowen knows.
- [67:59]
C
Amazing.
- [68:00]
B
Yeah. It's like a bunch of women are, like, doing something, doing some crimes together, and nobody knows. I'm all for them. That for sure.
- [68:08]
A
Yep. And he ru. Like, he comes in and, like, blows it all. Like, he. He threatens the whole plan. And she's like, you dummy, we're busy here. It's great. So I just want to. I want to shout out lady con artists who are also speaking to the.
- [68:29]
C
Dead cat Sebastian has the perfect crimes of Marion Hayes.
- [68:33]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [68:34]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [68:35]
C
Which is.
- [68:35]
B
She's. Listen, Cat Sebastian loves. Loves people.
- [68:38]
C
Yeah, right. Like a caterpillar.
- [68:40]
B
Like, crimes.
- [68:41]
C
Like, hero is a. A blackmailer.
- [68:44]
B
What?
- [68:45]
C
I mean, it's a theme. And a con. Con man and a highwayman. And he's blackmailing her, the. The heroine. And so she shoots her husband and has to go on the run. And so she kidnaps this con man to help her, and hijinks ensue. It's delightful.
- [69:06]
A
Perfect. I gotta shout out Stacey Abrams on the con artist front, too, because Selena Montgomery's Hidden Sins, which is my favorite Selena Montgomery book, is a contemporary, but the premise is the hero is a forensic. Like a guy who. Like a forensic anthropologist who's been brought in because there have been, like, many, many, many murder. Murders. All of the Selena Montgomery books, I'm pretty sure all of them are romantic suspense. And there have been all these murders, and there are, you know, I don't know, some number, like a lot of bodies for years and years, and they're all connected to a like, particular church that was once headed by the heroine's father. And he comes in to, like, find her and discovers that they. The heroine has been like, basically like, running scams and conning people as, like this, as like a. Like a good girl. Like, the preacher's. The preacher's daughter for like, her whole life. And now he's like. He finds her sort of in a very sort of perfect moment where she is in hiding. And he's like, I need you to help me figure out, like, how all these dead bodies have been connected to this church and like, who's been doing this. And she's like, well, I'm not gonna help. And he's like, well, too bad because I actually know who's chasing you and I know that you've been scamming all these people. So it's like a really. A sort of very classic structure for a hero and a heroine in a romantic suspense. And I mean, it's written by Stacey Abrams, so you know, that Lady Ken can do the logic required to make that book great.
- [70:54]
B
It's funny because I think that I obviously like, really love like a mafia romance. And I feel like that's almost like a different bucket though, right? Like, these I think of are like, this is like the light crimes. The light. It's a little light crime. Little like a light kidnapping. You got a light crime. It's like a property crime, only still.
- [71:14]
A
Require you to be able to. To put a fist through a face.
- [71:17]
B
But.
- [71:18]
A
Yes.
- [71:18]
B
Yeah, but I'm just trying to think about, like, you know, like we've had a mafia episodes. You know what I mean? Like, it's a little harder sometimes to think about, like, what would. What are the kinds of crimes if I was talking about them? I could only talk about them here, you know? Yeah, I'm fascinated by the like. You love blackmail, though. I feel like now that's like, really has my brain buzzing. Like, have I read a great blackmailer Blackmail so hard?
- [71:43]
A
Because blackmail's hard. You have to. Because obviously in a romance, like, the blackmail has to be. It feels like he. They have to be blackmailing each other.
- [71:54]
C
Yeah, I mean, it's really terrible. I mean, it's.
- [71:57]
B
Or like you blackmail the bad guys, I guess.
- [71:59]
C
I think in Duke of Sin, he is so delightfully terrible that it just. It just. It works because he's just so delightful and terrible all the way around and.
- [72:11]
B
Yeah, right. He doesn't care.
- [72:13]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [72:14]
B
I do think that in order for these books to work, these characters have to really not care, you know what I mean? Like, if they are feeling guilty themselves, well, then I just don't want it.
- [72:28]
C
Yeah. And I think there's always a lot of humor layered into a lot of them. Like, they're written kind of zany. Mad Cappy humorously to try to like.
- [72:40]
B
Soften that a little bit.
- [72:41]
C
Yeah. Make him more likable, maybe.
- [72:44]
A
You know, Jen, what has good blackmail in it is that Natasha Anders book you really like. She blackmails him.
- [72:53]
B
Oh, the Unwanted Wife.
- [72:55]
A
Yep.
- [72:57]
B
Have you ever read that, Joanna?
- [72:59]
A
You would like that one.
- [73:01]
C
I'm writing it down.
- [73:02]
B
Oh, my God. The angst is really unparalleled. Like, basically the book starts with her being like, think our marriage is over and he has just been terrible to her. And he has to suffer the entire book once he realizes, oh my God, I've been terrible to her. It's great.
- [73:17]
C
Oh, so marriage in trouble plus blackmailing.
- [73:21]
B
What?
- [73:22]
C
Marriage in trouble.
- [73:24]
A
It is marriage in trouble. I mean, like, she's basically like, I want a divorce. And he's like, no.
- [73:29]
B
So, yeah.
- [73:29]
A
And then they end up together. So that's how that goes. And then I do he. She does though. She blackmails him into.
- [73:40]
B
Yeah, I think she wants to have a baby maybe.
- [73:43]
C
Yeah.
- [73:43]
A
I can't remember.
- [73:44]
C
Oh, I'm excited to read it.
- [73:46]
A
Blackmail for a baby, though. That is a thing that periodically you turn. Turns up, especially in the. In like the presents world.
- [73:55]
C
Well, even in historicals where they like, you know what. What Sherry Thomas book is that that I love where. Where she wants a divorce and he basically says, I won't, you know, give me a child and then I'll give you a divorce. It's not his at night, it's. Oh, I can't remember. But it's my very favorite Sherry Thomas book where it's just enemies to lovers and they just hate fuck through the whole.
- [74:21]
B
The whole book.
- [74:23]
A
A lot of your mafia books sort of traffic in this, like, like, I'll hurt your sister or your dad or whatever.
- [74:32]
C
For sure.
- [74:33]
A
Have to marry me for sure. You're going to have to let me you into oblivion.
- [74:38]
B
So hard for them.
- [74:39]
A
It's so hard for them.
- [74:43]
C
I will put you in a cage if you do not.
- [74:48]
B
Anyway, that did. That did happen. Everybody that did happen happen.
- [74:53]
A
It was great.
- [74:53]
B
You're gonna love it.
- [74:56]
A
I do think that you're right that pirates live. I think pirates sort of live separate from this too, in a certain sense. But I also just have to sort of say out loud that if you haven't read and this one is very old school, everybody. So just, you know, I don't know, check your content warnings go into it, eyes wide open. Because it was published in like the 80s or 90s. But the wind Flower, which is Laura London, who is that married couple who wrote. I can never remember their names, but it's a married couple and they wrote as Laura London. And they wrote this book called the Windflower. And the premise is the heroine, like, it's set in revolutionary America. She's let. He. He's. He and his, like, band of scoundrels have been on the. Are on the run. She is a remarkable artist and she has sketched all of their wanted posters. And then she like, lands on their ship by accident and they think she's. I mean, like, this is a chaotic, like 700 page long book. It's epic. You're gonna love it.
- [76:13]
B
It.
- [76:14]
A
But basically, it's like she turns up on the ship and they think she's. First, they think, of course she is a sex worker. Like, you know, that they've stolen from a criminal, his criminal, like, enemy. And then. But then, like, ultimately it becomes clear that she knows all of these scoundrels because she has drawn them all in wanted posters. It's very clever. It's very funny. And then like, he is the hero is like, like a massive, massive, like classic old school hero. Just like, so impenetrable and so mean who like, threatens her with every possible terrible thing and then. But at the same time, she's like, then beloved by all the men on this ship and like all these criminals now, like, think of her as their, like, pet and their like, favorite woman. And I'm sure I don't remember this, but I'm certain it has some thread of like, women on ships are bad luck. Let's throw her overboard. I mean, you're gonna get the whole vibe here.
- [77:15]
B
Sometimes when we talk about things like this, I approach it from like, okay, who's like, one of my favorite authors? And then like, who's their criminal? You know what I mean? And then I had this moment where I was like, maybe this is like, balls. Sarah. Some people write them and some people don't.
- [77:30]
A
And jed means test testicles.
- [77:33]
B
I do mean testicles. A lady came up to Sarah once and was like, you don't write balls, but tester Dare does. And Sarah was like.
- [77:42]
A
It was framed as. Do you know what the difference is between you and Tessa Dare? And I wanted to be like, yes, I do.
- [77:49]
B
I know a lot of. But what do you Think is the difference.
- [77:53]
C
And that was the difference.
- [77:55]
A
Tessa writes balls, and I don't. And you know what I mean? I don't. And I stand by it.
- [78:01]
B
Oh.
- [78:01]
A
But for sure, some people write criminals and some people don't.
- [78:04]
B
Like, somebody else are singing. Yeah.
- [78:07]
A
Joanna and me. And some.
- [78:09]
B
Correct. But I was like, does Julie Garwood. She does not.
- [78:13]
A
No, she does not. Judith McNaught. Not really.
- [78:18]
B
Right.
- [78:19]
A
But judo.
- [78:22]
B
100%.
- [78:22]
A
But Jude Devil. But Joanna Lindsay.
- [78:26]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [78:28]
A
But wait. Beverly Jenkins wrote a con artist.
- [78:32]
B
Yeah.
- [78:33]
A
And a pirate.
- [78:34]
B
Interesting. Is.
- [78:35]
A
Yeah.
- [78:35]
B
But here's the thing I would say is really different when you are writing characters that are already margin. Like, right. Sidelined in society. Society is never gonna. What is the point of following society's rules if those rules aren't gonna, like, reward or benefit you? So, you know, when you get Beverly Jenkins having characters who are, you know, sort of making those choices, often it's not really driven by the same thing.
- [79:01]
A
Yeah.
- [79:03]
B
Right. And so that's why, like, I was kind of thinking, like, you know, I'm talking about a bunch of white people here, but, like, there's a reason. Right. Like, what is the. You know, if you're a preacher, who is one of my favorites of Beverly Jenkins books. And he's.
- [79:17]
C
Okay.
- [79:17]
B
I don't remember actually that he's, like, a criminal, but, like, there's no point in further putting these people outside of society because society has already, in a historical said to a lot of these characters, and then these are characters who are successful outside of the rules that, like, reward white people. Right. So it is kind of an interesting thing to think about. Like, it's. You know, it's just like a different. It feels to me like almost like a totally different conversation.
- [79:44]
C
Right. Yeah.
- [79:45]
A
So agreed.
- [79:47]
B
Right. But, like, Christina and Lauren, for example, have flat out said, I think publicly, that, like, one of the reasons they really had fun writing something Wilder is it was like, the first time that there was, like, a body count on page.
- [79:59]
A
Yeah. It gave them a lot. They were free for a moment.
- [80:03]
B
Right. To, like, kind of write something that they'd never really written before. And I think that is just always really interesting. It's like, what is the. You know. Know what. What is the thing that you can write or not write and why. Yep, for a lot of different reasons.
- [80:21]
C
Sarah will never write Spies.
- [80:24]
A
She will not. Not in a romance, that's for sure. The. If the titles of those books, the. The Beverly Jenkins books that. That I was talking about. So Destiny's Captive is the famous one.
- [80:39]
B
Because the COVID Is the COVID Scrape.
- [80:42]
C
Great. Oh, my God.
- [80:46]
A
But Captured also has a pirate captain. And to catch a raven, she literally is a con artist who is like, roped into stealing a copy of the Declaration of Independence, which is. I. I mean, I think this book is exactly a perfect example of what historical Roman romance can and should do.
- [81:09]
B
Yeah. He's a bounty hunter. That's what it is in Nighthawk.
- [81:14]
A
Oh, yeah. Interestingly, bounty hunters kind of also like.
- [81:17]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [81:18]
A
Like living outside the. I know you. Well, you. We. What? We haven't talked about Jennifer. Jennifer is motorcycles.
- [81:30]
C
Mc. Yeah, well, those guys are criminals.
- [81:35]
A
Straight up.
- [81:36]
C
Straight up.
- [81:36]
B
Well, you know, my working theory is that like the Jeff knows the difference between Mafia and motorcycle club is just like in one set of books they wear suits.
- [81:46]
A
Leather jackets versus suits.
- [81:49]
B
Sure. That's the only difference in romance.
- [81:52]
C
I don't know.
- [81:52]
B
In real life. Simply not my business.
- [81:56]
A
In real life, Mafia. The mafia is nothing like Joanna's mafia.
- [82:01]
C
Correct. Anyway, the Sherry Thomas book that I was referencing is Private arrangements.
- [82:11]
A
Oh, of course.
- [82:12]
C
Which is. I mean.
- [82:14]
A
Yeah.
- [82:15]
C
The best.
- [82:17]
A
So good. No, but now that you've said that, Jen, that some of us write criminals and some of us don't, you're going.
- [82:23]
B
To be thinking about it. Yeah.
- [82:24]
A
It's like Ela James does not. Not. Julia Quinn does not.
- [82:26]
C
Julia Quinn does not. Right.
- [82:28]
A
Never. Like, never.
- [82:30]
B
But like Jenny Cruzy does. I mean, like, there's the one where he's like a contract killer or whatever. Right. The one with Alice and Shane.
- [82:38]
A
Yeah.
- [82:39]
B
So, I mean, I think that's it. I think maybe this is just like one of those things where you're into it or you're. You're into it or you're into it or not.
- [82:46]
A
It's true. And we're into it unabashedly. I don't care. But it's interesting because there is a line for me, like, at some point I do get to. Oh, no, this is too much crime.
- [83:00]
C
Or too terrible a crime.
- [83:02]
A
I don't know. Do I? I don't. Listen, I probably don't. Honestly, I think it's.
- [83:07]
B
I think there's a line.
- [83:08]
A
There's a line where he's doing too much crime to her. That for sure. But is there a point where, like.
- [83:15]
B
I mean, I don't know.
- [83:15]
A
I read that Butcher and Blackbird, but book start to finish.
- [83:19]
B
I didn't.
- [83:20]
A
Jen. Jen always feels like she has to qualify that she has not read that book. Everyone knows Jen.
- [83:27]
B
My point is readers too, right? I mean, I think, you know, when Joyna Was talking about her readership earlier. Like, I think that they're like. And it was helpful for me to be like, property crimes. Fine. Crimes against people. Much less likely to work for me. Crimes against a heroin. Absolutely fucking not. We're done. I mean, so I think that that's the thing. It's like, right, Like. And luckily, if there's the vect for all of us. So lots of books being published all the time by all different kinds of people. But yeah. Oh, wait. So we talk about your book tour as we wrap up, because this is. This is everybody. This episode. Joanna's book is coming out next Tuesday. You can pre order it now. But you will be on book tour and including with me in Chicago. So why don't you talk about people where they can see you if around town in the next week or so.
- [84:16]
C
Yes. So I'm going on August 26th to St. Louis to the novel Neighbor with Liana De la Rosa, who also has a book coming out on August 26, Gabriela and his Grace. Then we're going to Kansas City to the last. No, not the last chapter. That's Chicago under the COVID in Kansas City with Sierra Simone and Liana de la Rosa. Then I'm going on August 29th. No, August 28th. This is going great. I know all of these dates. Whatever that. So August 20th in Chicago. Chicago under the COVID with you, then.
- [85:02]
B
Inviting my co workers to these things.
- [85:04]
A
Now, you can't be more embarrassed by Sean, by Joanna, than I did.
- [85:09]
C
September. September 3rd, I'm in Philly. September 4th, I'm in D.C. with Diana Quincy. Philly is Scarlet Scott at Cupid's Bookshop, then Diana Quincy at East Coast Books. Then I'm at the Rip Bodice in Brooklyn City. What did I. What did I say?
- [85:30]
B
East Coast?
- [85:31]
A
Is it East City?
- [85:32]
C
Okay, you guys, I know I have poison ivy. Did I mention it?
- [85:37]
A
It's true.
- [85:37]
B
You have been a. You know what? Considering we kept you yapping for like an hour and a half.
- [85:42]
C
And the 9th, September 9th, I met the RIP bodice with Adriana and Sarah.
- [85:47]
B
You guys, I saw that and was like, why don't I live there? What is wrong with you?
- [85:51]
A
You live in Chicago, which is a very nice city. Listen, I've been watching a lot of the Bear this week, and every time there's an establishing shot of Chicago in the Bear, I say to Eric, chicago's a very nice city. And last night he was like, yeah, you've said that. It is. It's just. It's empirically a very beautiful city.
- [86:12]
B
So when Sarah and Joanna and Adrian are going to be someplace and I am not, what it is is very far away.
- [86:18]
A
It's very far away. It's true.
- [86:21]
B
That's so exciting. Well, I cannot wait. So everybody will put the links to that in show notes so that you can some of these places, it's like get a ticket, get the book. Some places I was looking are just sort of register. So we'll put that in show notes. So everybody. Yeah, we'd love to see you out.
- [86:38]
A
Joanna, the narration for the book, is it dual?
- [86:43]
C
It is dual.
- [86:45]
A
Nice. People are going to be very happy about that.
- [86:48]
C
It is dual. Yeah. I'm excited.
- [86:50]
A
Well, thank you so much for joining us, as always. We love having you.
- [86:54]
C
Thanks for having me.
- [86:55]
A
We love having you.
- [86:55]
C
I love having both your faces.
- [86:58]
A
Everybody, I'm Sarah McLean here with my friends Jen Prokop and Joanna Shoup. We are fated mates. You can listen to us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts or you can find us online@fatedmates.net when you're there. You can click on episodes and you'll get show notes. We'll list every book that we referenced over the course of this episode, which we've talked about a lot of books like kind of interior to the conversation. So head to see the full list there. You can also find us online on Instagram and threads as fated mates. Pod on blue sky as fated mates. And if you really love listening to people talk about romance and history and romance stuff, head over and join the Patreon which will give you access to the discord where about a thousand other romance lovers are talking about romance all the time. Time. You can do that@fatedmates.net Patreon Other than that, election day is coming up. Election. The election season is coming up. We are starting to raise some money for to hold Virginia local elections blue for Democrats. You can learn more about that@betamates.net fadedstates we are working with the States project to make sure that we keep local elections for Democrats up and down the line. We have one more week and then we're taking two weeks off and then it's season eight. Can you believe it? These dummies are still listening to us. Thanks for joining us, Joanna.
- [88:36]
C
Thanks for having me.
- [88:45]
B
But I.