S08.20: Trailblazer Lisa Kleypas

Summary

Fated Mates S08.20: Trailblazer Lisa Kleypas

Podcast: Fated Mates – Romance Books for Novel People
Hosts: Sarah MacLean & Jennifer Prokop
Guest: Lisa Kleypas
Date: February 4, 2026
Theme: Honoring Lisa Kleypas as a romance genre trailblazer—her career, her influential characters, her philosophy on writing, female friendship in romance, and her forthcoming novel Queen of Lombard Street.

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Episode Overview

This episode is a celebratory “Trailblazer” profile of bestselling romance author Lisa Kleypas, released to coincide with Derek Craven Day—Fated Mates’ fan-created “holiday” honoring Kleypas’s iconic hero. Hosts Sarah MacLean and Jennifer Prokop guide a rich, personal conversation with Lisa, exploring her influences, her landmark books (particularly those that revolutionized the romance hero archetype), how female friendship defines her pivotal series, her willingness to experiment across genres, and the community surrounding romance writing. The episode closes with a hilarious and heartfelt round of “Would Derek Craven…”—answering fan questions about the beloved hero’s hypothetical opinions and behaviors.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Why Romance? Lisa’s Origin Story

[04:50] Lisa Kleypas shares her early love of books (“I was always a huge reader”)—from Little Women to the Brontës—and describes growing up steeped in Concord, Massachusetts's literary culture.

• Lisa's early passion for romance led her as a high schooler to save waitressing wages to attend a romance writers conference, where she forged connections (notably with editor Ellen Edwards at Avon) that sparked her writing career.
• Quote:

  “Once you start your first romance novel, that’s it. You are compelled to keep writing them until you get one published.” [06:51]

2. Early Career, Evolution, and Editorial Influence

Lisa details her first, unpublished attempts (“I wrote five novels, I think, and then the fifth one finally got accepted” [09:02]), and the impact of editor Ellen Edwards in pushing her toward bolder, more experimental stories, particularly those not centered on traditionally aristocratic heroes.

• Early books were “imitative”; she experimented with subgenres (Regency, Civil War, Western Time Travel).
• Ellen encouraged her to “free up your imagination—write something unusual” [11:57].

3. Derek Craven and Trailblazing the Working-Class Hero

Focusing on Then Came You and Dreaming of You, Kleypas and the hosts dive deep into the decision to elevate Derek Craven—a rough-edged, working-class character—to leading man, a radical move in 90s historical romance.

• Quote:

  “He was not the sort of character that you would ever have as a hero … he has a cockney accent, he’s a grave robber, uneducated…” [13:53]

• Lisa’s desire to write heroes who don’t hold all the power (“I was so tired already of … the hero had all the money... he has all the cards and there’s no challenge.” [15:06]).
• The impact: Lisa’s working-class heroes created a new archetype and left an imprint on the genre.

4. What Makes a Kleypas Hero?

Kleypas articulates her preference for heroes with “purpose and power, but not through entitlement.” [20:14]

• Preference for “men with skills” and those affected by the rise of industry, not simply landed titles.
• Themes of “hardship, vulnerability, and the relief of connection.”
• Quote:

  “I have a lot of heroes that have a real sense of inferiority and a lot of baggage, and so they’re all very driven… Once you make that connection, it’s like a relief… you’re with this person and now you’re going to be safe.” [41:33]

5. World-Building and Female Friendship: The Wallflowers Era

The hosts and Lisa explore the Wallflowers series—its shift away from family-focused series toward a core of female friendship—seen as a radical commercial risk at the time.

• Wallflowers inspired by her own community experiences (“I love world-building… seeing what happens with some characters in the next book.” [27:55])
• The strength of the series is the persistence of friendship after marriage—a direct answer to “the belief that you’re gonna fall in love and leave your friends behind.” [34:35]
• Quote:

  “The point of the series was these four female friends.” [36:03]

6. On Commercial Success and Creative Risk

The Wallflowers was Lisa’s commercial breakthrough, but she stresses she “never felt settled or, you know, quote, successful in that sense. You have to keep challenging yourself.” [36:30]

7. From Villain to Hero: The Saint Vincent Phenomenon

• The hosts discuss Devil in Winter and why readers (and Lisa) feel it's magic.
• Writing St. Vincent was “an obsession… That book wrote itself in like two and a half months.” [40:25]
• Other books where she recaptured that energy: Marrying Winterborne, Love in the Afternoon.

8. Complex Heroines & Historical Limitations

• Challenges of writing heroines who are as compelling as heroes given historical constraints.
• Pandora (from the Ravenels) as a personal favorite, reflecting Lisa’s own ADHD and drive.
• Focused on real historical women—e.g., Garrett Gibson inspired by Elizabeth Garrett Anderson.
• Frustration at lack of documented women in history: “Less than half a percent of all recorded human history is actually about women.” [48:03]

9. On American-Set and Contemporary Romances

• Attempts to write historicals set in America complicated by “problematic” aspects of U.S. history (“I’m not comfortable with creating an alternate… history…” [25:02]).
• Discussion of her contemporary Texas-set novels and how Sugar Daddy was a “hybrid” ahead of its time, blending romance and women’s fiction, and why publishing was hesitant.
• Quote:

  “At the time, there was much more of a sense of, you know, pick one thing or pick your lane and stay in your lane. To me, you need to give the story whatever sorts of angles and interesting shapes as you can.” [65:15]

10. Upcoming Novel: Queen of Lombard Street

• Inspired by her own health crisis and a sense of wanting “more” from the genre.
• Centers on a female economist/banker in 1880s England, navigating financial independence, forming a found family of ex-convicts, and tackling white-collar crime—with a powerful romance at its core.
• Mixed-genre, twice as long as her typical book (“like 150-something thousand words, so it’s a big book with a lot going on in it.” [58:43])
• “If I die, I’m happy that I’ve written this book.” [58:57]

11. Community & Mission: The Reader’s Experience

• Personal story of losing everything in a flood, and the comfort a romance novel provided; that sense of responsibility motivates her to always “do the best book I can do.” [72:39 | See opener and 00:00 in transcript]
• The vital power of the romance community, both writer and reader—to support, uplift, and push the genre forward.
• Quote:

  “If there’s ever a woman sitting on the bathroom floor, reading a book for comfort… if it’s mine, it better be the best book that I can do.” [75:00]

12. Mentorship, Romance’s Legacy, and Genre History

• Grateful for the friendship and mentorship of other authors, editors, and community, especially during hardships ("the Flood is an example of the romance community" [77:06]).
• Reflected on her place as a “trailblazer”—especially the impact of the working-class hero.
• Quote:

  “Bringing in working-class people and all the intensity that those types of characters bring with them has, has hopefully left a mark.” [79:52]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lisa Kleypas (on the importance of romance):

  “Romance publishing takes off because woman is no longer the B plot. We’re the A plot.” [29:21]

• Sarah MacLean (on Derek Craven’s impact):

  “Derek Craven feels transformational. … all of your heroes, I feel like, come from that sort of DNA.” [81:49]

• On reader-author connection:

  “There are real women reading our books who have real lives and real problems. … I think there’s not a single novel I’ve written since 1998 where I haven’t been aware of that somebody might be reading it who really needs it.” [76:00]

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Not-to-Miss Segments/Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|-------------------------------| | 00:00 | Lisa’s flood anecdote and the life-saving power of romance novels
| 13:00 | The moment Lisa “invented” Derek Craven, the working-class romance hero
| 27:55 | Inception of the Wallflowers and why she centered friendship over family
| 36:30 | On never feeling complacent and always pushing boundaries
| 40:25 | The almost magical ease and creative obsession of writing Devil in Winter
| 48:03 | The invisibility of women in history and mining archives for heroines
| 58:42 | The stakes, structure, and “why” of Queen of Lombard Street
| 72:39 | On writing for women “who really need it”
| 84:05+ | Extended “Would Derek Craven…” round—fun, canon-expanding, and affirming
| 93:39 | Finale: Lisa’s feelings on being recognized as a trailblazer, gratitude, and love for her readers

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Would Derek Craven… (Fan Questions & Lisa’s Responses)

This beloved audience-interactive segment closes out the episode with Lisa herself adjudicating a series of hilarious, illuminating questions about Derek Craven’s hypothetical behaviors (84:05–94:00):

• Would he buy tampons for you?
  Lisa: “Oh, yes. Yes.”

• Would he donate to charity anonymously?
  Lisa: “Yes… he just wants to do the good it’s going to do. He doesn’t want attention for that.” [87:25]

• Would he use 3-in-1 shampoo?
  Lisa: “No, I think he’s going to use fancy shampoo.” [88:32]

• Would Derek Craven watch Heated Rivalry?
  Lisa: “Oh, yes.” (because “he’s seen it all—he has very few hangups.”) [86:41]

• Would Derek Craven clean his own gutters?
  Lisa: “No, no, no, no.” (everyone laughs)

• Would he win at Traitors?
  Lisa: “Oh, he would win it...” (unanimous agreement)

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Concluding Reflections

The episode showcases Lisa Kleypas’s generosity and candor as both a craftswoman and a human being. Her impact on the romance genre—particularly in shifting the paradigm toward working-class heroes and celebrating women’s friendship and agency—is undisputed by the hosts and demonstrably beloved by readers.

Above all, Lisa’s care for her audience—writing for “the woman sitting on the bathroom floor who really needs it”—is palpable throughout. Her willingness to challenge conventions while delivering stories of comfort, joy, and empowerment solidifies her legacy as a true romance trailblazer.

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Further Info

• Queen of Lombard Street publishes October 20th, 2026 (hardcover). Features a pioneering female banker, a Welsh undercover detective, found family, and romance against a high-stakes backdrop.
• Find Lisa online: lisakleypas.com and on Instagram (new presence incoming).
• All things Derek Craven Day and episode transcripts: fatedmates.net

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For New Listeners

If you’re a romance fan or just romance-curious, this episode is a masterclass in both the genre’s history and heart. Whether you’re looking for reading recommendations, genre context, or simply joined to celebrate Derek Craven, you’ll find affirmation, inspiration, and laughter with Fated Mates and Lisa Kleypas.

Transcript

[Lisa Kleypas]

When I lost everything I owned in a flood in 98, we were able to kind of pick up some essentials at Walmart. After having lost everything, like the house, all my clothes, everything. One of the things that I stuck in my cart as an essential was a romance novel. And, you know, those are just the most horrendous nights where you're sitting in the motel bathroom floor while the husband and child are in the next room. You're trying not to wake them up. And. And you're like, what am I going to do? I mean, I've lost everything. What about this? What about that? And the only thing that kept me sane was reading this romance novel. And it wasn't necessarily the best romance novel, but I was grateful to have it. But that was important to me because I thought, if there's ever a woman sitting on the bathroom floor reading a book for comfort or for just whatever, if it's mine, it better be the best book that I can do.

[Sarah MacLean]

Welcome, everyone, to Fated mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I'm John Jennifer Prokup, a romance reader and editor.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it's happening, everyone. We've been keeping a big, big secret.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It's a huge secret. Yeah, it's a secret.

[Sarah MacLean]

Happy. First of all. First things first.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[Sarah MacLean]

Everyone. Happy Derek Craven Day.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I'd say to all who celebrate, but if you're listening, you celebrate.

[Sarah MacLean]

You celebrate. Congratulations, you're one of us.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Would Derek Craven celebrate his own holiday? He would, because he is Derek Craven.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think he would. Here's the. I think everyone around him would. And he would be like, no, no. But like, be very into it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[Sarah MacLean]

And if, like, you forgot Derek Craven day, forget it. Anyway, it's Derek Craven day. And it's a trailblazer episode. It's a one, two punch of Lisa Klepas, who is telling us about her life in romance, about her work in romance. There's a ton of crass stuff in here, everybody. You're gonna. If you're a fanatic like we are, you're gonna really love all the. All the ways that she talks about so many books through this episode. And if you like heated rivalry, maybe there's a little treat for you in here.

[Jennifer Prokop]

She's also going to talk about her forthcoming, like, historical fiction release, the Queen of Lombard street, which comes out this fall. And we are going to play a few rounds of wood Derek Craven with her. So anyway, it's going to be amazing.

[Sarah MacLean]

Because she's long Suffering and we begged.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, she, you know what? I don't know how you could not right. Yeah. I think she had a lovely time. I do too.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I think all of you are going to have a lovely time, but we won't make you wait any longer. Here's Lisa Klepas, Trailblazer. We are so excited to finally have Lisa Klepus with us. I'm so glad to be here for not just a Trailblazer episode and I don't even want to be like a Trailblazer episode is amazing, but also to celebrate what we consider to be the most romantic holiday in February.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Derek Craven Day.

[Sarah MacLean]

Welcome, Lisa.

[Jennifer Prokop]

For everybody at home, Sarah has met Lisa before. I never have. But even here on Zoom, I just want you all to know I'm really trying hard to keep my cool.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, I think you're so cool, Jen.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, I have told this story before, but I've never told it to Lisa. So I'm going to tell it to you, Lisa, that I, you and I, we were in the same room once and we did not meet because we had an a share. We had an editor in common and it was rwa. And we, I walked into sort of a large room with my editor and she pointed at you kind of 10 to 20ft away and said, oh, there's Lisa. We'll go say hello. And I said, oh, no. And I turned around and I walked.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Out of the room. Sarah, we were best friends and didn't know it already.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I was like, immediately speak to her. No, no, you're betters than you did and that's fine.

[Sarah MacLean]

But then we were, then we were put on panels together and you were very kind and always have been incredibly kind and.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Well, you too, lovely.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so I'm so happy that we finally have you at fated mates to talk about. I'm thrilled how incredible a career you've had and how transformational your work has been to the genre. And so I wonder, you know all we always begin with this kind of question of why romance? How did you come here? Were you a reader? If you were, who did you read? Tell us the beginning, the origin story.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Well, I mean, I was always a huge reader and I grew up in Massachusetts and lived in Concord Carlisle. So I was like literally down the road from Louisa May Alcott's house. So I of course read Little Women and all the other books that Louisa May Alcott wrote and went to her house all the time. And because they gave tours or they would just kind of let you hang out back in those Days. So not only was I a huge reader and was just sort of steeped in this whole conquered reading culture, but also I did have the kind of childhood, as everyone born when I was did, where we were a bit latchkey, you know, latchkey children. So we had a lot of time on our own. And so I spent a lot of time in this little attic of this four square house that we lived in. And it was really warm, had a single light bulb up there. And so I would just huddle up there with a big box of Nancy Drude or the Brontes or Charles Dickens. I mean, I just had this huge box of books and we just go through them. So when I was in high school, there was a conference. It was a romance writers conference at Bretton Woods, White Mountains in New Hampshire. And it cost $400 to attend, which was just a fortune to me, but I had saved up all my waitressing money. So I went to this writers conference because I wanted to meet all of these writers and just see all these people in the business. Because at that point in the 80s, romance had really gotten an engine, like it was starting to really go. And so I saw Jennifer Wilde, who was like this huge historical romance hit, because everyone's saying, there's Jennifer Wilde. And I look at it was this like six foot five Texan guy, you know, it was just wonderful. And I saw Carolyn Nichols, who had just started the Love Swift line.

[Sarah MacLean]

Carolyn Nichols, Yep. She comes up all the time.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I know.

[Lisa Kleypas]

And. And I was hanging out a lot with this wonderful young woman. She was only like a few years older, that I was like a junior in high school, and she wasn't that much older. And so we were hanging out, talking about our love of novels, romance novels, and I just kind of drifted toward her whenever we were in the same room or in the. In the same workshop or something. And eventually I said, well, I didn't really catch your name. What is your name? She said, ellen Edwards. So this was Ellen Edwards, the amazing editor at Avon. So young, so smart. So she said, if you ever want to write a novel for me and send it to me, I will read it. And so that once you start your first romance novel, that's it. I mean, you. You just are compelled to keep writing them until you get one published. Yeah, that kind of was the start of it.

[Sarah MacLean]

So that's incredible. So, so were you reading Romance at the top? Were you a romance fan?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, yes, I was an indiscriminate reader. I still am, actually. So I would read everything from the Classics to absolutely whatever was on sale at Paperback Booksmith. And there it seemed like every week there was at least one or two new big historicals. There was always a new Barbara Cartland out, always knew Janet Daly out. So whatever money I had, you know, I spent on books. And so I remember when I was about 12, Kathleen Woodworth had already come out with Flame in the Flower, which really started all of it. And so I read that and was just. I was swept away. I mean, back then when it started, historical romances didn't have the kind of parameters that you would sort of think they had now. And so there were exotic adventures, there were all sorts of just wild, crazy scenarios. And it just seemed like a lot of freedom, for better or worse. And so it was, it was really exciting because you never knew what you were going to get when you opened the COVID Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So did you then send your first book to Ellen? Like what happened from there?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, I actually sent. But I wrote five novels, I think, and then the fifth one finally got accepted and I sent them out to everyone, like literally make several copies of the manuscript, send out all these, you know, heavy paper manuscripts to everyone. And the first acceptance I got was from Fawcett Books at the time. And it just wasn't quite enough money. But then NAL came in with an offer and so that was enough to allow me to actually make enough of a living, if you can believe this, at that, it was $10,000 for an advance for that first novel. I had just graduated college and that was enough to keep me for a year.

[Sarah MacLean]

Amazing.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so for people who are listening, Nal, we've talked about this before, but NAL was Berkeley back at the. Became Berkeley sort of along the way. And so those books, those sort of first books are really interesting to me because those books are out of print, those early books. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about those stories because I do think like there's. I've read them both and so I'm sort of.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I'm sorry to hear that.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, please don't. Please don't. I think. So can you talk about those books and that how, how your work kind of evolved? Because I think it did really quickly.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. Yeah. Well, they, they were imitative because I wanted to get published. And you know, when you start out, you don't have the confidence or even the self knowledge to know what your style is or what your preferences really are. So you try everything. So the first two were historical Regency era. The next one was set and conquered Civil War era. And then the next one was sort of the crazy western time travel. And so I was just trying all these different things. And then I got a contract with Ellen finally, because that was what I always really, really wanted. A new contract opportunity came up and she was a remarkable editor. I don't know if editors have the luxury of being able to do what she did back then, which is to really work with an author, shape an author. She would understand what you were trying to do and then say, well, here's how we can work towards creating that novel that you want to write. So with this contract, I had this, what I thought was wonderful proposal, innocent heroine, you know, aristocrat, blah, blah, blah. And she said in this really nice, gentle way that she always had, you know, I really can't accept this proposal because it's, you know, it's just not there. It's not what we would like. So let's really try to free up your imaginations. Let's try to write something unusual. And I believe she used Laura Cancel as an example because she had just come out with the Hidden Heart and Laura Kinsale, tremendously experimental, brilliant, searingly romantic. But I mean, she would try something really wild and different. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

With every book.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Every book, yeah.

[Lisa Kleypas]

So I came up with the idea of this woman with tremendous baggage. Lily Lawson was a character, it was back in the Regency era and she has a secret which is that she has an out of wedlock child who is being held for hostage by her ex lover. So with this tremendous secret and having to pay him money, blackmail money, she has to spend all of her time hanging out in a, in a gambling palace run by Derek Craven. And so I wrote this book and it was really exciting because it was different. Certainly different for me, but I mean, what was being published at the time, it was also very different.

[Sarah MacLean]

And this is. Then came you we're talking about. Okay.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. And so Derek Craven was a minor character and he was not the sort of character that you would ever have as a hero.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think that's really interesting because now of course we see these characters and we know, but at the time no one would have ever, ever thought that Derek Craven was going to be a hero. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And this is why we feel so strongly that you've, you are such a trailblazer because we, and why we talk so much about Derek Craven, because I think he didn't exist prior to you.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah. And it was, it was such a risk at the time. I mean, now it doesn't. Well, gee, big risk. But at the time, it was really strange. When I went to Ellen with the next book proposal, I said, listen, I can't stop thinking about this character, Derek Craven. And I know he's rough around the edges. I mean, he has a terrible past.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Grave robber, uneducated, based on the real William Crockford at the time. And having read the biography of William Crockford, it made me think about how this man was so good at getting money away from the aristocrats, getting them to spend their money, getting them to apply for credit. So he knew all of their secrets.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And.

[Lisa Kleypas]

And he was very obsequious to all these people. But, you know, underneath, he must have really had kind of contempt for them or thought, yeah, you think you're better than me, but I know all your financial problems. Right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

I know everything.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah. So. So that's. That's Derek. And when I went to Ellen and I said, I really want to do a romance with him as the hero, there was this long silence. He's such a nice person. She would never like. Yes. And she said, well, you know, could. Could he be a long lost dude or something? And I was like, no, no. And she said, but he has a cockney accent. And I was like, he can have some speech lessons. He'll take some elocution. Okay. So we wanted to do that the whole time. And. But it was clear that it was just such a startling thing for her. But the more I explained it to her, where I was coming from, it was that I was so tired already of having to write a novel where the hero had all the money, he was the best looking, he had all the women, he had everything in the world. And then you pair him with a young, innocent girl, and he has all the cards and there's no challenge. And I could never really make myself believe that that kind of man would ever value a woman like Sarah as much as Derek. I mean, to Derek, she is the most unattainable, precious, wonderful creature in the world because she sees him as a full human being. I mean, she treats him with respect. She treats the sex workers at his gambling palace with respect. She sees people as people, doesn't look down on them. So he would never dream of.

[Sarah MacLean]

You.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Know, kind of taking her down with him is what his view is that. That his love would. Would not never be good enough for her. So I just thought that was so tremendously compelling. Because, man, you know, you get in bed with an aristocrat who has all the women and.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But.

[Lisa Kleypas]

But you get in bed with Derek and you know, it would be amazing.

[Sarah MacLean]

This week's episode of Faded Meats is sponsored by Jennifer Iacoppelli, author of Game Sex, Set Match.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, so this is a tennis romance. So Penny Harrison's hard work is finally paying off. She's 21 years old. She's a tennis icon in the making. She's got massive sponsorship deals and legendary stats on Horizon. All she has to do is nail the upcoming Grand Slam in Paris. Until then, no room for mistakes. So when she returns to her home tennis club in the Outer Banks to train, she comes face to face with the biggest mistake she ever made. Alex Russell. This is 10 Tennis's bad boy, and of course, the only guy who's ever broken Penny's heart. So to keep her head in the game and her mind off Alex, she's just gonna determine to train. And she really, like, leans into her friendship with tennis's other rising stars, her buddies Jasmine in Indiana. And there's like a bunch of fun, like, drama as, like all of these, you know, the. The romances, the off the court things.

[Sarah MacLean]

Happen in between all that's the challenger vibe maybe.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So as the days take down to Paris, Penny can't. Penny seems to always find herself across the court from Alex. She knows that winning it all means laser focus. So why can't Penny stay away from the one guy who ruins everything?

[Sarah MacLean]

Because he's so sexy. If you want to read this sexy, sporty romance, then you can read Game, Set, mash right now in print, ebook or audiobook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Jennifer Iacopelli for sponsoring this week's episode. Where were you in your career when Derek happened?

[Lisa Kleypas]

It was still mostly the beginning. Like, I had made some inroads. You know, I'd started to gain an audience, but, you know, it was hard to measure in those days. There weren't a lot of tools other than did it hit the bestseller list or, you know, the publisher. It's always. It's. It's hard to get information and not be. You know, it's just hard. So the.

[Sarah MacLean]

And you were still very young.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes, yes. I was 21 when the first one was published.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's wild.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, I know. I mean, I. I'm still kind of amazed by that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sarah Fielding.

[Lisa Kleypas]

So I think dreaming of you was the first time that Ellen came to me and she said, you're starting to get on some lists, some bestseller lists. This is a good direction. This is nice. Like, she was starting to realize that this was a niche that I could create for myself and this was a way that I could stand out. And so it was a gradual thing because it wasn't like a huge explosion of sales and but the persistence of that book is what was remarkable because every royalty period, it came back and came back and grew and grew and grew. And then when I started getting, you know, fan letters and doing interviews, that book was just always there. It just always kept coming up.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, he feels also really, you know, primordial for you in a lot of ways, in the sense that I now think of you when I think of you as a writer and I think about what, you know, Lisa's core story is like. You write a working man. Like, you write a man who has purpose and power, but not through necessarily, though you have written lots of titles. Like, most of your heroes are men who have jobs and purpose.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Well, yes, I mean, I, I, it's just my own personal thing where I just have always loved a man who has skills, like, of any kind. Like, I love a man who could fix things, especially. But I love men who Tom severed. Yes, yes, yes, exactly, exactly. I mean, a man in his shirt sleeves with a tool in hand is, like, so hot for me. So, So I, I really loved researching and finding all the examples of real life guys back then who were tremendously accomplished, tremendously successful, and, you know, it's a wonderful fantasy to have, like, a Prince Charming, an aristocrat who has all the success and the mansion and all of that. The truth is, though, back then, even going back to the Regency time, the industrial era was starting to put a lot of pressure on these landowners because a lot of their workers were going to the factory jobs. The income was getting less and less and less. And these were families who had had debt for decades, maybe even centuries. So I think when you start to really go into the actual history of these, these, this, these eras, because not only the Regency, but the Victorian, it's really fun and different and exciting to do some research and find out what men and women were actually doing back then. It's one of the reasons I love your book, Sarah, is that you're looking into actual professions and jobs and scenarios that they're fresh, you know.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. One of my favorite, and I really tried to run this down, but it might have been on Twitter was someone who once observed that you two are like, claypus is more interested in industry and McLean is more interested in crime.

[Lisa Kleypas]

It makes them very complex, you know, And I Mean, that's. That to me is just fascinating.

[Sarah MacLean]

So I wonder if you could talk. I eventually want to come back to those early books. Especially I want to come back to Forever My Love. And you know, you probably know why.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So. But I want to keep going.

[Sarah MacLean]

I can't.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I honestly can't.

[Sarah MacLean]

Forever My Love is the one that you're on the COVID of, Lisa.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, oh, that one.

[Sarah MacLean]

So actually let's do it now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Let's just do it now. Sarah.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes, now that actually wasn't a direct.

[Sarah MacLean]

Painting of me, but that one.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes, yes. They, they. Because this was like not long after my beauty pageant days. So I, I did. I had long hair and I had a great figure and because I ate nothing and, and you know, a lot of makeup. It was the 80s, right. So. So they took some publicity pictures for a book dump where you put this big picture on top of this cardboard book stand in the bookstore. And so, so yes, I had that, that pose and the long hair and the pursed lips and all of that.

[Sarah MacLean]

So I mean, it's fascinating to me because you know, Sandra Brown was also on a cover right around that time. And so I think there are, there is this sort of interesting time in the 80s when publishers kind of were interested in authors brand as more, even more than, you know, just what you're writing. And it's interesting cause I think we are coming back around to that now. Like, I think publishers are really interested in what an author's brand brings to the table. But also I just love that they're about, you know, I'm really fascinated by the ones where the authors are also on the covers.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah. Rebecca Brandywine too.

[Sarah MacLean]

I don't know if you ever really.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes, I'm writing that down. Yes. And I believe I may be wrong, but I think she posed with Fabio on her cover.

[Sarah MacLean]

So fun. I mean.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes, you'll have to look.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay, so we're at, we're at Avon. You have written at this point four books. Did you do the Valorins at Avon? Yes.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, oh, yes. I did those for Ellen too.

[Sarah MacLean]

And, and those are America set. Those are New Orleans set.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I'm curious about the shift there because obviously, you know, when you come through old school romance, as we, you know, lovingly refer to it, the 70s and 80s, there was a lot of American set in those. In that time period. And then America really dies off for most people stop writing American set with the exception of obviously like Beverly Jenkins is writing a very sort of particular.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Story in the United States. But is There. Were you driven? Were you, were you pushed away from America?

[Lisa Kleypas]

No, I wouldn't say that. The thing is that the, the history of America, it's problematic to say the least. And so when you, when you set romances in that era, you have to really either ignore some things that shouldn't be ignored. I don't know, I mean I, I, I'm not comfortable with creating an alternate. Yeah. History, you know, and it's just not romantic what was going on. And so I think in some ways it was just easier to go to England.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But also there are some famously a place without any sort of problematic history.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Sarah MacLean]

But, but I, but the Vaseline on the lens is different and it's different. Right.

[Lisa Kleypas]

That's a perfect way to put it. Yeah, perfect way to put it. And so the, the whole Victorian time period was really calling to me because nobody was doing it at the time. And so I set the Wallflowers in early, early Victorian time period. And then with each series that I've done, I pushed it later and later and later because that turned out to be just perfect for me. I mean I love the Victorians for being so gadgety or for these tremendous upheavals that were going on in society. I mean there's just so much fertile ground to really set some interesting stories and characters. So it just that called to me and once I did the Wallflowers, that was it. Like I was interested in pursuing that era.

[Sarah MacLean]

So prior to the Wallflowers you did the Bow Street Runners, you did like lots of standalones.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Suddenly you other right things.

[Sarah MacLean]

But it, I mean it feels the Wallflowers is the other. It feels like there's, you know, craven and then there's the next level up is the Wallflowers.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Like there's, Yeah, I mean that was the break. Like Derek was a breakthrough because after that I understood what I was really good at in terms of, you know, creating self made hero people, working class people and men and women. And then when I was thinking about doing a series, because I love world building. I mean I really love it. I love seeing what happens with some characters in the next book and I love it that I have readers who will like come up to me at book signings and be like, so how and how are so and so doing? How many children did they have? And it's like they love to kind of join in the whole world building with me. So I knew I wanted to do a series and at that point the sinsters were doing really well for Stephanie.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh Sure.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Julie had just started.

[Sarah MacLean]

When are we? 2006.

[Jennifer Prokop]

2000?

[Sarah MacLean]

No, earlier than that. It's like 2004. Early 2000s, I think.

[Jennifer Prokop]

A little earlier. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Secrets of a Summer night came out.

[Jennifer Prokop]

2004.

[Sarah MacLean]

You had two books in 2004. Again, the Magic and Secrets of a Summer Night. Again, the Magic, I think is like the greatest quiet romance ever written, so.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, thank you. Yeah. I had a special place in my heart for that. I just. I. I love those characters and.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, that's clear, because again, the magic leads into the wallflowers.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. Because then I knew I had to do something with Marcus. I loved him. I loved it that he wasn't tall. I loved it that he was a little bit, you know, stocky and I don't know, I thought he was so sexy. I always.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Adriana calls him only my short king. Like, that's. We just know that she's talking about.

[Lisa Kleypas]

West Cliff because, like, it's again, like, he's. He's the kind of guy that when he gets the woman, you know, he's going to be all about her. And I don't know, again, very much a man with skills, he knows things. So. So I wanted to bring him in. And I was thinking about how to base a series because Julie had started the Bridgertons, the censors were going like gangbusters. And I was like, well, I don't want to do a family series. I want to try something based on women, female friendship. And I did get a little bit of pushback just with the powers that be sort of saying, well, female based series don't sell.

[Sarah MacLean]

They still, by the way, everybody, they still sell that. Yes, they do.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Exactly. And. And, and yet to me, of course they would sell. I knew they would sell. Because I think that aspect of romance novels is something people don't reflect on enough, that it is about women, making women the center of the story. And until romance publishing really took off in the 80s, publishing and Hollywood all thought that romance was the side story. The real story was a man doing something, having an adventure, saving the world. And then plot B was, and his girlfriend came back to him, or, you know, his. His estranged wife, you know, he gets back together with her. But women were always the B plot in a woman's story. It was always the. The minor plot. So finally, romance publishing takes off, because woman is no longer the B plot. We're the A plot. It's about us, our needs, our thoughts, desires, our fantasies, and what we accomplish or want to accomplish. So that is so important to understand about the romance business, romance industry, because I think it's still a struggle for Hollywood to get their heads around featuring a romance and saying, yeah, this is about the woman and about this relationship. This is about what women are interested in. And it's, it's not the B plot. And I mean, like, I'm digressing a little, but I, I'm sure this is why heated rivalry is doing so well. I've watched a couple episodes and love it.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure.

[Lisa Kleypas]

But it is a romance and it's about romance.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Lisa Kleypas]

And I wish Hollywood could pay attention to this and understand this is the direction to go. And it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be the B plot.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Blue Box Press, publishers of the marriage Auction series by Audrey Carlin.

[Sarah MacLean]

So we've talked about this series before. It's perfect for anybody who loves a kind of like sold into marriage story, which, you know, I know a lot of you out there do. This is a contemporary series where four young women essentially enter into a marriage auction to be married off to the highest bidders. They are paid for a three year contract, meaning they can walk away after three years from their marriage with a million dollars a year. And the big question is, like, what would you do for $3 million? Each of these women has a very specific reason why they have to enter into the marriage. And then of course, they, over the course of this kind of very delicious, sexy, gossipy series, find love. As part of the series, Audra wrote two novellas. One is a Christmas novella because everybody loves a Christmas novella. And the other one is called Madame Alana, which is a really interesting, mysterious story about the first, the woman who runs the auction who took over after she herself was sold in the auction in a much less kind of consensual way. And this is her story of finding love as the auction madam. So these books are available right now.

[Jennifer Prokop]

These books have been sort of re jacketed with new covers to match the rest of the marriage auction series. So this is like a fun time for you to check them out. They are available in print or ebook and if your podcast app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the series. Thanks to Blue Box Press and Audrey Carlin for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Sarah MacLean]

I can't think really of, I mean, I'm sure there were series that were connected by other kinds of relationships prior to Wallflowers, but, or I mean, but I do feel like It. It felt like the first time as a reader that I did see a sort of connection that was so strong too. I mean, that series is a. Really hangs together as a series, and I feel like it's made better for the books progressing in the way that they do.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like, if you've read those series in order, especially if you've read again the Magic and then the series in order, you're really getting a full. Full picture that you don't get, you know, in other ways. And I think, you know, just personally, as both a reader and a writer, I was really inspired. I know as a writer, I was inspired by the kind of clepist universe. And it became for me a model for my work. Like, oh, I can just keep layering books on because Lisa does it.

[Lisa Kleypas]

It's fun. I mean, it's really fun. And one. One of the things that I loved about the wallflowers is that there were misfits, because it's always supposed to be, like, the most beau woman, and everyone wants her and she's perfect. And I was like, that is not my experience. Like, I remember going to middle school and the dances, and everyone stood on opposite sides of the room, and I felt like a dork. And so that's.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's the.

[Lisa Kleypas]

The woman that's really fun to see, you know, get her man.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I think it also, to me, it's like, speaks to a. There's such a belief, right, that, like, you're gonna fall in love and, like, leave your friends behind. Yeah. And instead, this is a. A series that really is like, no. In fact, our commitment to our friends is even stronger. Right. I mean, Evie's real, like, kind of feeling that she had lost her friends, because by marrying St. Vincent, she will have said that what happened to Lillian didn't matter. And so I think that, like, that's the other thing I really liked about that series. And I think it's the reason it still is such a. It still really hits for me in a very specific kind of way, is because of that, like, they don't just, like, get married and never see each other again.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Well, yes, yes. And I mean, part of female friendship, a powerful part of it, is forgiveness. We have to forgive each other. I mean, because we're people and we screw up sometimes. And so sometimes a friend will do something, and you're like, I hated that she did that, but I love her. She's still my friend. And so I felt like the other wallflowers, even Lillian, would understand that Evie was in an absolutely Desperate, like even life threatening circumstance. And this was the best Evie could think of for herself at the time. And the very last scene of the very last Wallflowers book, you know, was the four of them together. Because that to me was really the point of the series was these four female friends.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. Well, so could we talk about, since we're just, we're doing sort of the arc of your career, let's talk about the impact of the Wallflowers because I do feel like that is where Lisa goes stratospheric in a lot of ways for readers. And also I.

[Lisa Kleypas]

You have.

[Sarah MacLean]

Is this really where it was? You felt like, oh, this is, this is the series that transformed.

[Lisa Kleypas]

It did, yes. I mean, it did feel like a big step forward. I mean, it did feel like a different level. But as you know, you can't ever say, I've arrived now, you know, now I know what I'm doing and I'm just going to do this over and over and over again. You have to keep challenging yourself. I mean, you have to always try new directions, push the edges, push the envelope. And so I never felt settled or, you know, quote, successful in that sense. And I wonder if I didn't possibly have this image when I was much younger of, oh, someday I'll be successful and then I'll be content and self confident and, you know, everything will be roses. And it's never like that. Like, it's always work and it's always something that you're stressing about a little bit.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, all the time.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I mean, does that. Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, but it does. It's interesting because we've had this conversation now with, I don't know, 20 authors and it does feel like the perception from within is often, you know, well, I don't know, I was just, you know, head down, I was nose to the grindstone. Too close to the work. I couldn't tell. But it does feel. I mean, as much as Jen and I are obviously craven evangelists, there is so much powerful love for St. Vincent and the sort of the sense of, you know, St. Vincent is one of those kind of romance heroes in the pantheon of romance heroes. And so I wonder. I've heard you talk because I've cornered you in restaurants and asked you about St. Vincent, but can you talk a little bit about that book about Devil in Winter and how it came to be and did it feel as special as we all think it is? I mean, I think we talked to Loretta Chase on an episode and we talked about Lord of Scoundrels. And she sort of talks about. She just knew. She knew it was special. Yeah, you did.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I knew when I was writing Devil in Winter, the whole challenge of turning a villain into a hero was tremendously exciting. But this was the third Wallflower book. So, you know, when you get two books into a series and all of a sudden you are familiar with the characters, like, you know, what kind of joke so and so would make or what reaction someone else would have. So there was a comfort level with the series. I love the challenge of turning him into a hero. And the. The. The thing that started off was I knew that he had to be thoroughly deconstructed at the very beginning. Like, he's at a really low point. And so the irony is he wants to marry her because he desperately needs money. I mean, he has to have it. And because his father has spent everything, the family's been in debt forever. Estates crumbling, blah, blah, blah. So he marries this woman, and it turns out she doesn't. She doesn't have the money that she thought she had or that anyone else thought she had. But what. What there is is this gambling club that her father started. And so here he finally has an opportunity to remake himself. And he remakes himself because of her, because of her influence. And I don't know. I don't know what it was. I could hardly wait to get up in the morning, and I. I never wanted to stop writing. Like, it, you know, it was like, mommy, I haven't had lunch yet. And I'm like, oh, crap. And, you know, or. Or, you know, honey, it's. It's time to, you know, do this or that. I never wanted to stop. It was an obsession. And that book wrote itself in like, two and a half months.

[Sarah MacLean]

Wow.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Insane. It was insane. Wow. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Have you ever had. Have you ever had another one?

[Lisa Kleypas]

I've had shades of that. Marrying Winterbourne was kind of like that. And there are a few here and there where had that kind of energy. I think. I think for a couple of the Hathaway, the Love in the Afternoon, that one, I had that same obsessive feeling. And I just wrote, wrote, wrote, and it seemed to come from that deeper place in your psyche.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's another favorite of mine.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So, yeah, De Craven, St. Vincent and Winterbourne are sort of like three. Like the three, like, clear front runner favorites in terms of, like, your character, your. Your heroes. And yet they're all, like. They're all really different. I think they do share that sort of, like, work will save us kind of like industry is you know, the, the engine of, like, positive masculinity versus a toxic aristocratic masculinity, but yet they're all really different. Do you think that's just a change in the romance reader, a change in you?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Well, I think when you. When you just look at what makes that hero tick, you know, what, what drives them. I. I have a lot of heroes that have a real sense of inferiority and a lot of baggage, and so they're, they're all very driven. And I think of them all sort of like a fighter who has his. His fists up, his dukes up to protect himself. So he's always got his guard up. But the problem with that is that even though you're keeping bad stuff out, you're also keeping the good stuff out. He's not vulnerable. And so it's only the heroine, in each case through her own particular way that kind of gets in underneath his guard. And then once you're inside his guard, he is completely protective and takes care of you, worships you. I don't know. I feel like there's a sort of a security thing that once you make that connection, it's like a relief. There's a relief of connection where you understand that you're with this person and now you're going to be safe. I don't know why that's a button of mine, but it really is. Like, I just. I love that. I can't stand it when you read a romance and you worry about whether or not he's going to be faithful to her. You know, even though they've had their happy ending, it's like, I don't know if they're going to be happy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Do you think readers respond to any heroines with the same kind of love and devotion they respond to these heroes? I could tell you my favorites, but I think so.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I mean, it's harder with heroines because, you know, women had so many limitations. You can't have as easily a career woman as you can a career man. So I've had more polarizing heroines. I mean, one of my personal favorites is Pandora. She has a lot of my qualities in terms of, like, I have terrible adhd, and it's a source of. Of strength for me in that I feel like it's. A lot of my creativity is, Is fueled by having a brain that works that way. But, you know, I forget things. I. All the adhd, you know, I. I get distracted very easily. So I made Pandora very adhd and I made her have this ambition of wanting to create board Games and wanting.

[Jennifer Prokop]

To do this and never wanting to get married. Right. Like, just kind of being like that all seems like garbage. I'm fine.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Kissing's probably gross.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. Yes. And not only that, if. If she gets married, then her dream, having her own board game company, it's gone. Because the moment your husband decides, well, yeah, no, you need to have children and focus on that now, legally, it's over. And the whole idea that your legal existence actually comes to an end when you get married in that time period is really startling. I'm not sure that we modern women really understand what it was like not that long ago that you became a man's possession as soon as you got married. And in fact, the minute after the vows were said, everything you owned, including the shoes on your feet, belonged to your husband. So Pandora's very smart, even though she's ADHD and she gets all the implications of this, and she's fiercely independent and does not want to give that up. And that's why I put her with someone like Gabriel, because I was like, what's the worst thing that could happen to a woman like that? Marrying. I mean, meeting this gorgeous, amazing guy.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Perfect.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah. And who's wonderful and who really genuinely loves you. I mean, that would be the hardest thing to resist, I think.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The other thing that's really interesting about all the Ravenel characters, women, is all the way from Kathleen kind of up.

[Lisa Kleypas]

They're all really different.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I think I was really interested in some favorite archetypes, like the virgin widow. She's like, I'm garbage for. Right. All the way to, like, sort of Helen, who is, you know, kind of beautiful and perfect, but has this, like, kind of roiling turmoil underneath when she finds out about, like, the truth about her parentage. And you know, that, I mean, you have another widow who is, you know, happily married, and, I mean, so I.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Think, like, that to me, here at Gibson, too. You remember the Doctor? Yes. Totally my favorite. Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And to me, it's like, if you were talking about, like, some of my favorite Claypes heroines, I'd definitely be talking about, like. Like, all, like, one after another. And I do think it's because they're. They are all so different. Even Cassandra, who is just like, you know how you're like, how could anybody keep up with Pandora? And then, you know, there she's got Tom Severin, like, you know, negotiating with her in the library.

[Sarah MacLean]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by RomantasyLetters.com bringing magic back to your Mailbox.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This is so fun. So basically, what happens when you sign up for the Romantasy Letters is you receive two beautifully crafted letters in your mailbox every month. Each letter contains a new intimate communication. Right. Essentially, a character is writing a letter to another character in the story, along with immersive keepsakes like Cody sees, maps, stickers, sketches, et cetera. And you keep the letter essentially as a magical keepsake for the whole journey.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Now you can, for example, sign up for a treaty of hearts. This is a realm where king. A story about realm. A realm where kingdoms clash and magic bends loyalty. Two sworn enemies must strike a bargain sealed not in ink, but in blood and desire. Their fragile truce could save their people or shatter their hearts forever.

[Sarah MacLean]

I love this idea. Did you ever read that book Griffin and Sabine? Like, oh, yeah, back in the day. I loved opening those letters and feeling like I was like, absolutely. Anyway, if you also love this idea, then you can get the Romantasy Letters right now, 24 letters over the next year by going to RomantasyLetters.com and using the code FATED for 20% off your yearly subscription. Again, that's RomantasyLetters.com use the code FATED for 20 percent off. Thanks so much to Romantasy Letters for sponsoring this week's episode.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I think Garrett Gibson was almost as much of a leap forward for me, writing wise and personally as Derek was, because, you know, she was based on the real life Elizabeth Garrett Anderson. And when you read about this woman who had these incredible obstacles. You can't go to get your medical degree in England? Fine, I will learn French and go to France and get it there and then come back here. Well, no, we won't let you become certified. Well, I'll find a loophole. So that's what women had to do when they had a dream or a career they really, really wanted back then. So after having researched her and having learned so much about her and just had a hell of a great time basing a character on her, I started to really look into more real history. And it's really disconcerting to discover how difficult it is because women aren't mentioned in history hardly ever. It's. What is it? Less than half a percent of all recorded human history is actually about women. The rest of it is all about men. And it's not because women weren't doing anything. It's because historians were men who were writing about what other men were doing. And the nice thing, though, is that when you research really hard and look in the nooks and Crannies. There are accounts of women doing phenomenal things. And I think we have these stereotypes of historical romance heroines, either as a long suffering wife or an innocent debutante. Or else there's of course, the wicked other woman, the prostitute. There's such a small handful of ways that we've been portraying women. And so, you know, writers like Sarah, like me, there, There are other writers who have done women showing what could happen, like what some women did. And that's tremendously important, you know, so.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Maybe this is a good transition to talk about the book that you have that's coming out later this year, the Queen of Lombard street, because it's. I don't think it's. I think there's kind of romance adjacent. Right. But it's about a woman who is an economist, right. Or a banker.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I started thinking about this book way back in 2020, and the. I reached a stopping point and it actually happened because one night I was sitting with my husband and daughter. This was after the whole Covid thing had started. And so we were quarantine together. I'm laughing at something and then sort of coughing a little bit. And then for whatever reason, I reach up and I touch the bottom of my throat, like right at the little hollow of your throat. Felt a lump there and. Which was really weird. And I was like, huh, that's true. Is that normal? Is that. No, I don't think I've had that before. So, made doctor's appointment, went in to get it checked out. We need to send you for a biopsy, you know, the whole process. And so it eventually led in June of 2020, to me having to get a complete thyroidectomy and thymectomy. And I had a tumor on the thymus gland. Like, I didn't even know what a thymus gland was, but, but it's called thymoma. So I was tremendously lucky because the surgery got it all out. It was all contained it, it was malignant, but, but it, but it was all out. And so I had a lot of recuperating time. And the problem with stopping to take a breath and take a little time is that you start thinking, which is.

[Sarah MacLean]

Just like really dangerous because then 2020 especially.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, very much during my, I had a lot of time to think and I realized that I needed to make some changes in my life. And I realized that I was after 30 odd years in a bit of burnout because, you know, you, you try and you try from different angles and, and you accomplish everything. You, you're trying to accomplish. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, where do I go now? I mean, do I want to just keep doing, you know, more of what I've done? And so I started reflecting a lot about where I wanted to go. And the format of historical romance is that you keep this tight, perfect focus on the hero and heroine, so everything has to lead towards the eventual happy ending. And anytime that I ever digressed for that, I got tremendously interested in something that I felt added to it. Either I had an editor or readers who were like, yeah, well, you know what? We need to kind of push it back toward the actual romance story. But I felt that at times that really short changes the romance itself. That when you put a romance in a framework of much higher stakes, like much bigger stories, bigger cast of characters, more stuff happening that makes the romance more exciting and the romance makes the other stuff more exciting. And so what I had talked with Carrie Farron, my editor, our editor at the time, about doing is this is at Avon, at Avon, and doing a super high stakes big book, a historical fiction novel, but with a complete, full blooded, full bore historical romance within it. One of the problems I've always had with, you know, quote, respectable historical fiction or literary fiction is that there's this weird consensus that somehow a relationship ends at the bedroom door, that, that nothing that would happen sexually would change the relationship or impact the relationship. It's this weird separation. And I've never been able to see how you want to explore relationship, but then, oh, what happens in the bedroom? That's either not important or, you know, we're not interested in that because, you know, as we all know, it's tremendously important, right? And things are said in the bedroom and happen in the bedroom. And I've always seen the point of having a detailed love scene. Again, I think he did. Rivalry is a good example of that, where you're exploring the relationship, including in the bedroom. And so I wanted to do all of that like a big, big book with everything. And so unfortunately, Carrie Farren had to leave Avon. Now it's Simon and Schuster. But I was very fortunate after that great beginning with Carrie to get May Chen, you know, my current editor. And she is a real gift. She has an ability to look across all these different kind of sectors and genres of publishing and kind of to see how we can pull together all of this to how we can publish a book like this, basically. So she's, she's been really great, really supportive, and I can't wait for the COVID for this book to come out.

[Sarah MacLean]

But so can you talk a little bit about what the book is?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes, yes. So the essence of the story is there is a female economist, which there were back in 1880, and she is from the outside of society. She was born illegitimate, she is half Spanish, child of a Spanish dancer and an English banker. And she, it's. The book starts basically when she goes into a bank and she wants to open her own bank account. Now at this point she's made some money, she knows all about banking and finance and goes in there and no, you can't open a bank account on your own. You need a man to oversee it. Like you have to attach a male cousin, father, husband, somebody. Some man has to be overlooking this. She's like, I don't have, I don't have any, I'm not married. No brother, illegitimate, no legal relatives. And so she's really stuck. And they're on the verge of like denying her a bank account. And she realizes this is so important for women, like I have to start a bank for women to be able to come in and have some financial power over their own lives. And so that's just where she starts out with. At the same time, she has also hired a staff of servants who are all paroled prisoners because at this point you can't hire servants very easily. Nobody wants to be a servant anymore. So you've got this very motley crew of paroled prisoners and they're all from the outside of society, just like she is. And she eventually discovers that her butler, very sexy, cool butler, who's Welsh is, is actually an undercover detective who's been hired to investigate potential crime, white collar crime, committed by her mentor who's her partner in this banking business. So it's this really fun, exciting blend of her dream of getting the bank established. The stability of the British economy is threatened by this potential crime. You've got this undercover butler, you've got these parole prisoners who may fuck up to the point that they're going to get sent back to prison and this found family will disappear. And there are a lot of moving parts, but I structured it, I think, kind of like a roller coaster ride where you've got tremendous forward velocity, then you build a, build a build. Maybe there's a pause to reflect on everything and then all of a sudden tremendous explosion of movement. So it's just a really well paced, if I do say so myself, fast paced story. It's also twice as long as a lot of my books. It's like 150 something. Thousand words. So it's a. Oh, wow.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That's a big book.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, it's a big book with a lot going on in it. But this is the book that, you know, if, if, if I die, I'm happy that I've written this book because I think it will. I think it will live on for a while. I certainly hope so.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Good.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, I mean, we can't wait to read it. We're just waiting for arcs to arrive.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I will make sure you get them. I'm dying for you to read it.

[Sarah MacLean]

So wait, so here we are. So we've now covered all of the historical story, but in the middle there you went off and you wrote a bunch of contemporaries. So could you talk about that shift?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes, yes. It's again, sort of the strategy of.

[Sarah MacLean]

You'Ve got to keep challenging is that late 90s.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Late 90s, right.

[Lisa Kleypas]

That was 2000.

[Sarah MacLean]

Later than that.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I think around the 2010, 2009.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Well, you moved away from.

[Sarah MacLean]

You left Avon for a little while. You went over to St. Martin's Press, and there you published the Hathaways, which we didn't spend a ton of time talking about. But Love in the Afternoon is great.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Everybody should read it. And.

[Sarah MacLean]

And then you did Friday Harbor.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I did a Friday harbor magic. Magic realism series. And I did a Texas based series that.

[Sarah MacLean]

And they came after, right? No, they came.

[Jennifer Prokop]

2007 was Sugar Daddy, Blue Eyed Devil. 2008, Smooth Talking Stranger. 2009.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And so let's talk about those because. Let's talk about Lisa Claypus, Texas Heroes, because Hardy Kates. Wowzer.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah. I was nervous as hell starting to write those because I was like, I want to make sure that whatever thing I do in the historicals has some resonance here in these contemporaries too. And it's. I mean, I was born in Texas, a lot of relatives in Texas, so I was familiar with that setting. And to me, the, the contemporary setting allowed me to explore things like domestic violence, you know, recovery there. There was a smooth talking stranger and there was a lot of stuff about church corruption of these big megachurches. So, I mean, it was really fun to address contemporary issues. I think in retrospect, I think they could have, like, they did fine. They did great. But I think they could have been even bigger had we toyed with the packaging a bit. But at the time, sort of a hybrid book like that, romance with women's fiction with issues wasn't really being done. And now it's being done a lot.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think that's just the Thing that I want to talk about. I want to talk about Sugar Daddy a little bit because, you know, you talk about Queen of Lombard street as being sort of a big book that does multiple things. It's both romance and not romance. And I think Sugar Daddy sort of edges up on that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sarah, I don't know if you remember this, but before Lisa talks about her, can I tell you, I think the first time you and I connected was because of Sugar Daddy. Because really, you were asking on Twitter for, like, books, books that had like a kind of a delayed woman and Sugar Daddy.

[Sarah MacLean]

And.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I was like, sugar Daddy. I was like, oh, God, of course. Yeah, right. And no, I mean, like, literally, that's what you said. And I was like, Sarah McLean knows who I am.

[Sarah MacLean]

It's fine.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Now look.

[Sarah MacLean]

Now look at us talking to Lisa Glamis about it.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Okay?

[Sarah MacLean]

But Liberty has. I mean, her arc is very circuitous to romance. Right? Like, she starts off with this, the kind of the billionaire older husband or not husband.

[Lisa Kleypas]

No, actually, she.

[Sarah MacLean]

Wait, am I talking about the wrong book?

[Jennifer Prokop]

She's kind of in love with Hardy, but then he.

[Sarah MacLean]

But then there's another.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, he's her high school. Okay, no, I know. I know what you're thinking of. It's. She, her mother had a long ago affair with a billionaire. This rich old billionaire. I actually based him on Jim Rogers, the big financier who actually was from. Is it Alabama? I can't remember now. But anyway, so she, her mother had an affair with him. Long ago, her mother dies and her mother had another relationship with a man, has a little sister. So Liberty's life becomes taking care of this little sister somehow putting herself through beauty school, putting a life together with the two of them. And she has this high school romance that's very intense and passionate. Cardi Cates. And then later on, when she becomes kind of a live in caregiver to this billionaire who's broken his leg, she starts getting to know the family and starts getting involved with one of the sons who's like, right, really hot, handsome, this book. Right. And to me, that the story explored her life and her development.

[Sarah MacLean]

Exactly.

[Lisa Kleypas]

But. But it also, I think it really confused some people because the setup, you expect that it will lead one way. And really, to me, it's not necessarily the same kind of guy that you would choose in your 20s that you did in high school.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Do you know what I mean? And Ferdie isn't the hero of that book. He's the hero of the next book. He has an Art.

[Lisa Kleypas]

It's.

[Sarah MacLean]

But he's so present in that first book that I remember reading that and feeling like, oh, this is. Like, this is something different. Like Lisa's doing. Lisa Clippis is doing something very different here. And it felt big. And so I'm curious because it feels like. I know. I guess what I'm asking is, did you know that you were. You went off to St Martin's Press to write this kind of different kind of thing, and did you feel like publishing wasn't ready for this kind of romance hybrid?

[Jennifer Prokop]

I didn't know.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, I didn't. I didn't know. I'm not. I don't think that my editor, who was wonderful, Jen Enderlin, I don't think she was sure either, because it's. I mean, to me, hybridity is. Is a wonderful thing. And I think that's absolutely where romance is going, where the romance genre is going now. But at the time, there was much more of a sense of, you know, we'll pick one thing or pick, you know, pick your lane and stay in your lane. And to me, you need to give the story whatever sorts of angles and in interesting shapes as you can. Like, I hate the idea that we have to follow some template.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Like, I feel like it. It's only interesting if we're. If we're playing with it a bit.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I think that this is really a hallmark of your work. I. I feel like when you look back on the full. The full kind of bibliography of. Of your work, it feels like you are an author who is always sort of trying something a little bit different. You know, you did the magical realism you did. You switched over for the. The Texas books felt very, you know, like you were doing something much different than other contemporaries were doing. I think about, you know, Russian.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The putting.

[Sarah MacLean]

Doing the Russian books, which are, you know, weird, those romances are.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, they're weird.

[Sarah MacLean]

Weird and cool, but very weird. And.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. I mean, you have to try different things, you know.

[Jennifer Prokop]

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[Lisa Kleypas]

The Hathaways, I think, is a very distinctive historical series. And I started out by imagining like the Beverly Hillbillies in Victorian England because I was like, what if you take a family like the Beverly Hillbillies that have never been anywhere near the aristocracy or an estate or mansion. I mean, these are very quirky people. You know, father's a scholar, they're raised in some cute little hamlet somewhere. And these are very colorful, quirky, strange people. And all of a sudden you take this group and for reasons and through things that happen, they end up kind of being forced into this lifestyle of here's a mansion. Now the brother who's a druggie and alcoholic, now he's Lord Ramsay. And none of them know what the hell they're doing. And to top it all off, this house is falling apart. Because I love fixer uppers. I just, I love stories. I don't know what it is. Hgtv, you know, it looks like totally me. So I think, I think it was Very unusual because there wasn't a single aristocrat, save for this alcoholic brother who doesn't really count because, I mean.

[Sarah MacLean]

Exactly. So I guess my question here is how were there moments where. Did you ever pitch an idea where an editor was like, no, that, that won't work. Or at this point, did you feel. And a lot of people sort of shy away from saying yes to this question because it. But I, I hope, you know, whatever, we'll figure it out.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

But I guess my question is, or did you feel like. Well, at this point, I'm Lisa Clapis, and that means, like, I. People will take this risk with me, they'll go on this journey with me.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, I, I felt. I mean, that's one of the benefits of having been in the industry a while, having some staying power, is that there's a certain amount of trust. And I, I know that my editors were sure because I assured them that there would always be the elements that are necessary for my readers to feel satisfied. Like, I know what my readers want and try my best to make sure that they have it. So there are certain elements of the story, you know, the sex, but also the historical research and also, I don't know what you would call it, like a comfort factor. Like, my readers have to come away with a little bit of like, Ted Lasso feeling. Does that sound crazy? You know, I mean, just like comfort, like to feel better after they read them. And so I think that if you include those elements, then you can experiment and do different things because everyone knows. Well, at the very least, I will be getting these things.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. So let's talk about readers for a little bit, because I feel like romance is one of those, is, Is a genre. It's probably the genre outside of YA that has real, you know, readers are very present in genre. They're very present with authors. They're reaching out to us. They're even before social media. I mean, they're writing letters. They're a part of the ecosystem in a really powerful way. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, those kind of early reader experiences, you know, did you feel like, I mean, you came in, you were, you were writing through the 80s when romance was just booming. And I just feel like you have a perspective on how readers were engaging with the text and with authors. Can you talk a little bit about those, those early days and how readers were a part of that?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes, I, I realized the more that I put of my own sort of fears, vulnerabilities, things like that, into the books, the more the readers respond because they want that intensity, they want that vulnerability. And there is something about the historical setting that if you want to explore an issue, it's easier for readers to engage with it in a little bit of a remove in that setting. Sometimes it's easier to do that than to confront the same issue in a contemporary setting. So the more that I started to engage with issues and characters and baggage and pain and things like that, the more readers seem to feel intensely about my books and. And even me. And so when I realized what was happening, it was. It was things like I went on a book tour to Spain, which is one of the best experiences I've ever had in my entire life. And this was, I think, just before the Wallflowers got published. And these women in Spain, like, I went to like three or four different places in Spain, and I actually had groups like, following me from each city, like another city, because they were just so full of joy and passion and so excited. And I was like, wow, I can't believe that in another country that these readers feel that way. And then I came back and there were experiences like doing book signings for Blue Eyed Devil. And they were very slow, long book signings because there were so many women coming up to me, really moved emotionally, even crying and wanting to tell me about their experiences of narcissists or abusive husbands and about their recoveries and about their pain or what should I do? I'm trapped in this. So it became very, very personal. And I've never forgotten. There are real women reading our books who have real lives and real problems. They're never a faceless mass to me, like when I lost everything I owned in a flood in 98. And, you know, I've told this story where we were able to kind of pick up some essentials at Walmart after having lost everything, like the house, all men, clothes, everything. One of the things that I stuck in my cart as an essential was a romance novel. And those are just the most horrendous nights where you're sitting in the motel bathroom floor while the husband and child are in the next room. You're trying not to wake them up. And you're like, what am I going to do? I mean, I've lost everything. What about this? What about that? And the only thing that kept me sane was reading this romance novel. And it wasn't necessarily the best romance novel, but I was grateful to have it. But that was important to me because I thought, if there's ever a woman sitting on the bathroom floor, reading a book for comfort or for just whatever. If it's mine, it better be the best book that I can do. And so I think there's not a single novel I've written since 1998 where I haven't been aware of that somebody might be reading it who really needs it. So I feel like a very. A sense of mission and calling. I always have. And I think my readers know that and understand that.

[Sarah MacLean]

These episodes become really important, I think, for the history of the genre, because so few people have written. There's basically nothing written about the genre at this point historically. And I wonder if you could talk a little bit about two things. One, I'd love to hear about your community of writers or the people who, over the course of your career, provided mentorship, support, love. You know, maybe there aren't any, but I'm pretty sure there are. And then I would love to hear about, you know, the advocates that you had in publishing in the, in house, or, you know, agents, people who really like, like stood up for Lisa.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah, I. I think the Flood is an example of the romance community. When this happened to me, the word went out and all these Avon authors, I'm talking, like almost 30 authors, all started sending me things like clothes for the. The baby and, you know, things for my husband and me. Here's a, you know, pair of jeans for my husband. Maybe they'll fit your husband. So it. Julia Quinn sent me a Halloween costume because this happened right before Halloween. And so it was for my little boy, Griffin, and which was so tremendously kind. And I just couldn't believe how, how there, how loving, how. How powerful the whole thing was. I mean, I. You know, you feel very alone when a. When a disaster happens and to immediately be reassured, no, you're not alone. You have all of us. I mean, that, that was just an incredible experience. So, yeah, I mean, I think going to conferences, going to workshops, that community with other writers was just life saving and it. And it also improved my writing quite a bit. I mean, advice from people like Jenny Crusi. I mean, I could just follow her around with a tape recorder and just, you know, get her advice all the time. There are, There are amazing writers who have shared their wisdom. The. I think the editors that I've had, I've. I've really been grateful for. They have, they have taught me, you know, with each editor, I've really learned a lot and they've really supported me. So. So, I mean, I just think that it's kind of like I Could either give you, you know, 300 names or.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Lisa Kleypas]

You know, I've really been grateful for that support. I mean, when I write. Wrote the Wallflowers, I belonged to this wonderful little group. We called ourselves Squawk Radio. And so it was, it was fun because we just blogged together and, and it was a tremendous group. You know, Eloisa was one of them. And I think that was that power of female friendship and community really helped that series become what it was.

[Sarah MacLean]

So, so, yeah, obviously we feel really strongly that you belong in this kind of trailblazer space. And I wonder if you could talk about the mark of Lisa on the genre. Do you feel like you are aware that you have left this, this or are leaving this mark? And if so, what. What is that in your mind?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Well, thank you. Thank you. I. Oh, I almost feel like you guys should answer that because it's hard to kind of look objectively at my own stuff. I, I know that, that I've wanted to write to as high a quality as I could and that. That has made it an exciting challenge. I think bringing in working class people and all the intensity that those types of characters bring with them has, has hopefully left a mark. I'm trying to. I mean, like, I don't. You. You would probably have to answer it.

[Sarah MacLean]

More than you would.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But I.

[Lisa Kleypas]

We'll.

[Sarah MacLean]

We'll say it'll be in the, in.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The text, in the post roll.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, no, but I think you're really right. I mean, for me, it feels like one of the reasons why Jen and I have talked so much about Derek Raven over the years, because he does feel, and this is not to say one of the things that we struggle with a lot here is it's very difficult to find firsts. Right. And it's. And you always feel a little guilty when you're like, well, I think this might be the first because, you know, there's so many romance novels and we haven't read them all and it's never the first. There's always someone who, Although we try.

[Lisa Kleypas]

We try.

[Sarah MacLean]

Oh, yeah, that's my goal. I'm working real hard at it. We try. And I think there's also this kind of question of like, well, there are obviously, like, firsts, but then there are the ones that every. That, you know, somehow there's some spark in them and tons of people have read them and they really do become, you know, books on the tree of romance branches on the tree of romance. And I think you're right. I think Derek Craven feels transformational. Like, I don't. I don't think there were as many heroes. There were way, way fewer heroes like him before he existed than after. And all of your heroes, I feel like, come from that sort of DNA. So I think you're right.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I appreciate having a day more than you could ever express to the two of you.

[Sarah MacLean]

I would like to know, at what point were you apprised of the fact that there was a holiday?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Harry. Carrie told me. Carrie told me, and I just. I couldn't believe it. I was so floored. And I was just so thrilled because, you know, it's. Derek is not mentioned, I don't think, until y' all started this day. I don't think he was mentioned as much as, like, St. Vincent or the more recent heroes. And. And yet, you know, I've always known. For me, Derek was a key change in my career. Yeah, he was. He. He started. Started my career. I mean, like, I. I don't know what my career would be like without having written him. And so for you to. You to do this.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, I would argue St. Vincent doesn't exist without Derek Craven. So quite literally in the text, I.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Mean, a man has to find himself in a gambling hall, and it doesn't. One time he's coming from one way and one time he's coming from the other.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Exactly. Arguably the same gambling is the key, though.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Exactly.

[Sarah MacLean]

But the reason why. Lisa will tell you that the reason why this day exists is because this goes back to our Twitter days when Jen and I, both, on separate years, I think.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Discussed this was before the podcast even existed. How amazing how we both felt that. I think the exact tweet was something like, there are two kinds of Lisa Klepas fans in the world. The ones who think Derek Craven is best and the ones who are wrong. That was when we chose violence on the Internet.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Now we're just a model of decorum everywhere we go.

[Sarah MacLean]

But, Jen, why don't you explain our game?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay. So I can. So if my memory serves, this game really dates back to the days of the pandemic, when we did a great episode with Kate Claiborne and we had all these people writing in. We would always say, like, Derek Craven would never. Just like, you know, like some terrible thing has happened. But Derek Craven would never participate in this. Not a heroic act.

[Sarah MacLean]

Derek Craven would never.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right. Derek Craven would never. And we had a bunch of readers who, like, wrote in with questions and then like, we did, which is still one of my all time favorite episodes. Like, I will listen to it and really laugh sort of question. So, like, here's one. Like, one I will always remember was like, someone was like, you know, would Derek Craven leave you at home with the kids during a pandemic? Right. And, you know, and Kate was like, boy, people are really going through it. Right? So we have all these. And some of them are about, like, pop culture.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Some of them are about other romances. Like, one of my favorites is. Is would Derek Craven let out a breath he didn't know he was holding? And according to our readers, 69 said Derek.

[Sarah MacLean]

We actually ran polls, right?

[Jennifer Prokop]

31%. Derek Craven would never let out a breath. Heated noise, holding. Right? But then, like, there's somewhere, like, clearly everyone knows the right answer. This will attest. Lisa, to see if you can do the recipes, would Derek Craven buy you tampons?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, yes. Yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

See, exactly. We all agree. 97% of our readers were like, obviously. So what we have for you today is we have some would Derek Craven questions. We are going straight to the source. That's you. You are.

[Sarah MacLean]

Our listeners are gonna be so excited. By the way. Yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And by the way, most of these questions, I'm gonna tell you, this is actually funny. Have come from my friend Ernie, who has never read Dreaming of youf, but these are his favorite episodes. And he feels, as a man, he just intuitively understands.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, what I have to say is not having read Dreaming of you, Bernie has a 100% accuracy rate about in Derek Raven.

[Lisa Kleypas]

So he's part. He's partner.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. I think all men probably are. He listens to the episodes and then. But Ernie is. He listens to the episodes and then he'll, like, text me. Like, he'll be like, okay, so, you know, the question is, you know, would Dare Craven know what a spreadsheet is? And he would tell me what he thinks.

[Sarah MacLean]

We figured the answer, by the way, was no. He has worthy for that. He has a factotum for his spreadsheet.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. Yeah, that's right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Correct. Correct.

[Jennifer Prokop]

1. A really funny one was, would Derek Craven let Sarah get Lasik eye surgery?

[Sarah MacLean]

Sarah. Sarah Fielding. No.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Of course. Because he loves her little spectacles.

[Lisa Kleypas]

That's right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, so clearly you were a pro. You understand it all already. And like I said, you are the pro. Okay, ready? Okay.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Okay.

[Jennifer Prokop]

This one actually was asked by Ernie and someone on our Discord. Everyone wants to know. And I wasn't sure you would know, but you've already.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I may not know. Okay.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, you will. Would Derek Craven watch Heated Rivalry?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yes.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, look, at that.

[Sarah MacLean]

No hesitation.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No hesitation. Yeah. Although Ernie's point was he'd probably make a lot of, like, funny jokes about it while he was watching.

[Lisa Kleypas]

And I was like, okay, Derek is not uptight about any. He's seen it all.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's true.

[Jennifer Prokop]

That is true.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah. He has. No. He has really very few hang ups. You know, in. In that way.

[Jennifer Prokop]

In that way. Good point. See?

[Sarah MacLean]

See, I knew you just so useful.

[Jennifer Prokop]

So useful to have the source so great. The source right here. Be careful.

[Sarah MacLean]

Lisa, after this, we're going to text you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Just randomly texting you.

[Sarah MacLean]

Lisa, would you think about.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I must know. Okay. When Derek Craven donates money to charity, would he do it anonymously?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Okay.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. All right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Tell us more.

[Sarah MacLean]

Tell us.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You have to explain your reasoning.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I'm like, so I think there are a lot of things that he does for the showiness of it, for his image. But when it comes to charity, like, he just wants to do the good that it's going to do. He doesn't want attention for that. Do you know what I mean? He wants everyone to know that he's important and has what he thinks is good taste, which is just a lot of decorations everywhere. But in terms of like giving something to an orphanage. No, he doesn't want that, you know, to be.

[Sarah MacLean]

There's also probably a perception issue here. Like, he doesn't want to be perceived as being soft.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's in there too.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Both and Right. Okay. Okay. Does Derek clave Craven clean his own gutters?

[Lisa Kleypas]

No. No, no, no, no.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No explanation required. He's like, no. Okay. This one really made me laugh. Does Derek Craven use three in one shampoo?

[Lisa Kleypas]

I think he's going to use fancy shampoo. So, no, not that. I think he'd use some sort of, you know, Shiseido for men or something, you know, like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Agree. Yeah. No.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Lisa Kleypas]

It would be like he.

[Jennifer Prokop]

He would love that. You know, the reason is one of my favorite all time. There's like a. A tweet I use or a post from threads I use all the time is a meme. I send it to Sarah all the time where it's like a woman saying, I'm not gonna fight with a straight man. Go use your three in one shampoo. And that is the genesis of that. That question.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Okay.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Would Derek Craven use frequent flyer miles, like a frequent flyer mile program to accumulate points?

[Sarah MacLean]

Points. Oh, interesting.

[Lisa Kleypas]

That's a good. That is a tough one. I mean, I think. I think he would. I would think he would Leave it up to Worthy to get him the frequent flyer number. And Worthy would. So, like, he wouldn't have a problem with it. But I think that's one of those. Make Worthy do it.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, he wouldn't know what that is.

[Lisa Kleypas]

He wouldn't.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Lisa Kleypas]

He has be like.

[Sarah MacLean]

And that is simply how Is not his business.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Exactly, Exactly.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, that's why it's such a good question. Would Derek Craven play ice hockey? And then if not, what would his sport.

[Sarah MacLean]

Ooh, does he play sports?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Does he sport.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, man, I don't know. That's a tough one.

[Sarah MacLean]

That feels.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I don't know. That is a tough one. I mean, I think hockey is as good a sport for him as any.

[Sarah MacLean]

If he's going to do a tumble sport. Yeah, sure.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah. So I think.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Think he's not gonna play polo, you know?

[Lisa Kleypas]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Sarah MacLean]

Derek Raymond does not play golf.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I think. I think he, you know, I think he would be good at a real physical, slightly mean sport. So. Yes, I think he would.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think he could throw a punch, but I'm not sure he's interested in, like, the Marquis of Queensbury's rules for.

[Lisa Kleypas]

No, no, no. If he fights his seat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Exactly. Yeah. Very smart. Okay.

[Sarah MacLean]

I have one from Maggie Takuda hall, who is the president of Authors Against Book Bans and texted this to me. I will say she did not know anything about this episode or would Derek Craven. But she was like, I have a question about Derek Craven. Would Derek Craven tell or enjoy dad jokes?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Well, if sarah. If sarah told them that. Sarah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Lisa Kleypas]

You know what? Like, the. The whole thing that I. I like about Derek in Dream of you is, is that he is recapturing his innocence and his. His sense of fun and playful. Like, life was always so hard and bitter for him and mean and has an edge and she brings that softness to him. So I. I think she could probably get him to the point where he would. He would laugh at those. But would he tell one? I don't know, but he. I think he would laugh at one if only.

[Sarah MacLean]

If she.

[Lisa Kleypas]

If her dad told one, definitely, he would laugh.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure. I mean, what else can you do? I actually. Okay, I'm reading our discord, and someone made a really funny. I don't know if you've gotten as far enough in heated rivalry to understand this, either of you, but there's a point where Ilya really appreciates Shane's glasses. And so someone was like, clearly this would, you know, he would definitely. He would appreciate Ilya Appreciating. Shane's glasses. Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

They would have, like, a brotherhood situation.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, they have, like, a little bromance situation. Yeah. I also. Glasses on.

[Sarah MacLean]

Exactly.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Great. You'll get to that moment. And remember this.

[Sarah MacLean]

Rachel Reed loves Lisa Claypas. Obviously.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Of course. Obviously. It's an homage.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Well, I love her now. Now that I've got. Still got to read the books, but those first couple of episodes were great.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Yeah. And this.

[Sarah MacLean]

This show is beat for beat.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The book. You'll love it. Oh, it's so good. Oh, so good. Okay, I have two more, and then we'll see if Sarah has any. Okay. So would Derek craven have an espresso machine in his kitchen?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. Yes. All the fancy, all the latest stuff.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Most expensive up to date.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

Top of the espresso. He has, like, the whole shebang built into the wall.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Special.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. Yeah. Follow up question. Does he know how to use it?

[Lisa Kleypas]

No. No. Worthy does that.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Okay, last one. Another pop culture one. Would Derek craven win every game of traitors he ever played?

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, he would win it, though.

[Sarah MacLean]

He would 100% win it.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

The answer.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yes. I was like, yeah, that's why I was like, that's a good question to end with. I think we all know the answer.

[Lisa Kleypas]

To that, but.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Win at traders and bayou tampons. What a man. My new favorite.

[Sarah MacLean]

My new favorite version of what Derek craven involves just going straight to the source.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Straight to the source.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Well, it was fun for me, too.

[Sarah MacLean]

Now it's like trivial pursuit. We play, and then Lisa just gives us the answer. Did we get it right or not? Lisa, I don't think it. I don't think it will surprise you. That we adore you here at theta maids. And we are so thrilled.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I adore you, too.

[Sarah MacLean]

That you have made time for us. We just. And thank you. I mean, my God, we love your books so much. They have so much. They have transformed us in a million ways. And I'm so grateful to you as a person and a writer and a just person in my life.

[Lisa Kleypas]

So thank you. Well, this has been a real gift to me. I appreciate it. And especially after having been away for so long, to. To come back with my two friends is. Is wonderful. So thank you.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, this episode runs on Derek craven day, so happy Derek craven day to you.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You too.

[Sarah MacLean]

And also the new book, which.

[Jennifer Prokop]

The new.

[Sarah MacLean]

The book is out. Queen of Lombard street is out in the fall. Give us us some information.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes. October. October 20th, I believe. And it'll be hardcover. And like I said, it's going to be a really big whopper of a book. So I, I'm hoping that my readers will, will enjoy it and, and give it a shot and especially because there's another Welsh hero in there. So I, you know, if they liked Winterborne and I think they'll enjoy this one.

[Sarah MacLean]

Well, thank you so much. We can find you [e-mail].

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes, yes, I'm going to be redoing my website. I mean, it's, I, I just kind of let go of a lot of things and now am coming back into the whole swing of things. So, so yes, I'm going to be redoing that, but I'm going to start, start checking my Instagram and being a human being again.

[Sarah MacLean]

We'll find. So we'll put in show notes, we'll put all the information about Lisa in general, Lisa's books, anything else that we talked about, as always. But also we will make sure that we have your Instagram account there, your website there, follow Lisa on BookBub, follow Lisa on Goodreads and Amazon and make.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sure that you are ready to go.

[Sarah MacLean]

In October when Queen of Lombard street comes out.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Lisa, thank you.

[Sarah MacLean]

Thank you so much for joining us.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I love you both. Thank you.

[Lisa Kleypas]

This has been wonderful.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sarah, I'm not gonna lie to you. Lisa Klaypis knows who I am.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's it. You've reached, it's like peak romance moment here. This is like, you know, if I ever do a trailblazer interview with you, Jen, I'll be like, when did you know? You'll be like the day Lisa Klepus knew who I was.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, well, I mean it. Susan Elizabeth Phillips had a similar effect on me. I believe I've. That was like the first time we ever interviewed somebody. I like reading and I was, I was literally like beside myself. Now I feel like I'm like, okay, I've met a lot of people. It's been pretty cool.

[Sarah MacLean]

But Lisa.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh yeah, no, it was amazing.

[Sarah MacLean]

She's a delight. She's a delight. She has been around forever. She has such a, like, remarkable way of thinking about her career. She has such a strong memory of her career.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yes.

[Sarah MacLean]

She really understands what she was trying to do with all of her books.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I mean, I was especially happy that you asked her right for about like St. Vincent, like sort of that feeling that some authors get that certain books are almost right come. I like how she said it right. Like a deeper place. And I think it's really interesting to hear authors sort of talk about what happens when they know they have lightning in a bottle either because of a character or because of an idea. And, you know, the idea that, you know, the writing of Derek Craven was something that, like, was an itch. She just knew she had scratch in that way that.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, I think that's true. I think she also. I think what's really fascinating about Lisa as you and I brought this up in the. In the conversation. But. But she is not, you know, she sort of said, oh, well, I've. You know, I did some soul searching and I decided I wanted to do something different. And so Queen of Lombard street happened. Right. And I think certainly it sounds like Queen of Lombard street really is a departure in a lot of the. In a lot of ways, though, it also sounds like it is a romance. There is a romance in there. But I. I can't help but think about the fact that this morning when I was preparing for this conversation, I really was thinking, like, she's been all over. She wrote America, she wrote Russia, she wrote. She's written, you know, different parts of American history. She's written Regency, she's written Victorian. And then she did the. The Texas. The magical realism in the Pacific Northwest.

[Lisa Kleypas]

The.

[Sarah MacLean]

You know, there is no. When Lisa has an idea, she just sort of pours it onto the page and finds space for it. And I think, obviously, and she mentioned this too, there's a luxury to being able to do that. I mean, that not every writer is able to do that, but I think, I mean, she really is a force. She's written so many different things, and all of them, including the weird ones, just hit really well.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You kept calling the Rush books strange weird. I was like, okay, but you're just talking. First of all, I didn't call.

[Sarah MacLean]

Keep calling them weird. They are weird, though, right? Like, they're magical. Like, one of them has a dream. Like 150 pages of it is a dream. Like there are. And I. I think. I hope she. I think she understood that, what I was saying about those. But I think everybody who listens also understands that, like, I love a weird book.

[Jennifer Prokop]

We as readers of the genre, devoted readers of the genre, know that not all the books are the same. Right. It's people outside the genre who sort of want to believe that, you know, every single one of them is, you know, like a. Just a blueprint of the other ones. And so having an author sort of talk about, you know, the ways in which, you know, you want to take an idea and, like, refract it a little bit, and the. Both, the kind of the Way you can get like more juice out of that orange, but also the way it's invigorating to you as a writer. I thought that was really powerful.

[Sarah MacLean]

And it really made me feel like there are some authors who, and we've talked about them who like can hit it straight over the plate every single time. They throw a fastball every single time. And it is fast and no one can hit it every single time. Right? And then I think there are these, there is a whole separate set of authors that are always. And you know, she said, oh, I have, I have adhd. And that's like, that's where a lot of the creativity comes from. And I think that's interesting and an interesting way of sort of framing it, how she frames herself it to herself. And I think she is clearly an author who lives outside of that fat. She throws every different, you know, a million different kinds of pitches. And there's something really risky and fearless about that. And I, I love it. Obviously, you know, we often, I mean.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Obviously this whole podcast generally speaking is very reader focused, right? It's like a reader facing podcast. This is the work we are doing. You and I come to the space as readers. We're talking about the reader's experience, we're talking about the experience of reading these books. And yet the trailblazers are a real departure in some ways. Now we're really instead asking people, okay, now we wanna, now we wanna know about like the work of, of the writing of it and the careers and the longitudinal, outside of any individual text. You know, it's not like something that we tend to do a lot of. And so it's really interesting to hear and like recognize how important it is for people to like how people refill the creative well in different ways and how that works for different people. And you know, both time just writing different things, reading different things, you know. And I also thought, the one other thing that I thought was really interesting is obviously everyone we talk to loves reading, but you know, her experience of just sort of, you know, going to Louisa May Alcott's house and you know, I think that's. That was also very interesting to me. She wasn't saying like, yeah, I just grew up reading romance and that's all I've ever done. Like it. It clearly also comes from a very different place in her. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

A thousand percent. I mean, I was also really interested in how she thinks about the books that are transformational for her. And it was interesting of course to hear her say, like, yes, it was Derek Raven yes, it was St. Vincent. It was also Winterbourne. And I think that's really powerful, like, knowing it's. It's. Because I think obviously, as readers, those are the three, like you said. And, you know, you brought up those three as being kind of different, and I think they obviously are, but I also think, like, those are three. I feel like Lisa writes, you know, the. The DNA of those three heroes, like, in every book.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

There's, like, there's maybe a Lisa Clavering tree, too.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right? Yeah, right. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And the person. I just want to say, the person who referred to her as industry and me as crime is Sanj.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Oh, that's.

[Jennifer Prokop]

You know, it's funny, as I was.

[Sarah MacLean]

Saying it, I was like, it sounds.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Like that it was.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, I know. And I was kind of like, I.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Bet it was Sanj.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But I didn't want to, like, sort of. But I figured you would know. And I also didn't prep you. I was like, was it on Twitter? I mean, sometimes now I'm like, where did those things happen? I don't know. But, yeah, I thought that was like a. And I thought that was a really good point, because I do think that there is a way that, like, I mean, my favorite clay piss books are about, like I said, the intersection of, like, sort of masculinity and. Right. And one of the things that, like, we really explicitly see in St. Vincent is that when he discovers work. Yeah, right. He becomes a better man. Yeah. I mean, I love the fact that.

[Lisa Kleypas]

I thought of Kate.

[Sarah MacLean]

She likes. Lisa likes a man who has a chore. Right. Lisa likes a man who, like she said, a man rolls with shorts, his shirt sleeves up, and picks up a tool and like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's.

[Sarah MacLean]

That's how I think of her characters. And I also think, as she was talking about that, I was really thinking about how much those books and her heroes have transformed the rest of the genre. You know, we talk about trailblazers, and yes, of course, we talk about Derek Craven as being trailblazer for being a blue. Like not even a blue collar. Like a kind of really a hero who was born literally in a drainpipe. Right. So obviously with, you know, Derek Craven walked so so many others could run. But there's also this kind of. I really don't think historical would have made it to blue collar heroes to, like, working heroes for a long time without Lisa, Without.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah. Kind of jump starting that. Right. Well, and it's sort of fascinating.

[Sarah MacLean]

I think the other thing I like.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Her describing Ellen Edwards is that the right name. Ellen. Yeah. Sort of pausing. Right. Knowing. Right. Knowing what they sort of thought or believed about, like, which books would sell.

[Sarah MacLean]

There's nothing sexy about Derek on paper, you know, like paint.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, right. And then on paper. There's two kinds of on paper. Correct. No. And so I thought that was also really interesting because it does feel now like. Right. Like in fact it's almost. I mean, he's extraordinary, though. I mean, I do think in that sense. Right. That's what, what a great romance main character, a memorable romance main character somehow does ride a fine line between extraordinary in some way, but also highly relatable. I mean, I think a lot about what we heard Jane and Krentz say a few weeks ago, which is. Right. They see the hero in each other and I think that that is. Right. Her identifying Sarah didn't treat him different. No, Sarah didn't treat anybody different.

[Sarah MacLean]

And the way she talks about Sarah in the sense of like, Sarah is almost the unique character in that book. You know, it felt like to Lisa's mind, like, yes, Derek Craven has never existed before in romance. You know, big air quotes. Has never existed.

[Jennifer Prokop]

But the.

[Sarah MacLean]

But Sarah is so exceptional.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I did really want to ask the question about like, her. Her heroines.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah, I'm so glad you did because. And it wasn't like on the list.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Sometimes it's just like when I hear people talk because I obviously am very heroine aligned as a reader and I think obviously I'd love, you know, maybe you're like, sure, Jen. But I think it is really interesting for me, one of the reasons I really do love like the wallflowers and the raven elves is because of the way those. Those women are part of, you know, like, it's insane to me to hear about, oh like being told like, you know, if the ties that bind these books together are women, people won't read them because, like, what are you talking about? And yet to me, I do think, like, Pandora is to me like a. A kind of romance heroine. Where when I read that book, I was like, oh, she's so much more memorable and interesting on the page. A real true radical in a way that like, Gabriel just thinks he's a radical. Gabriel's like, I like real dirty in the bedroom. And his own father's like, oh, please. You know, And I think that's the part. It's like, then he meets a real radical. And that to me is the joy of that book is someone who thinks he is a revolutionary meeting a Real one.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. Can we also talk about Derek Craven would watch Heated Rivalry and her explanation why. Because instinctively I was like, yeah, sure, for sure. But then when she's like that's he has no hang ups, like I've seen it all.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Great answer. Yeah, man.

[Sarah MacLean]

I do not think I could play that game for literally any of my heroes. So.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Bless.

[Sarah MacLean]

I really think it is amazing when she was willing to do that with.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Us because.

[Sarah MacLean]

Gosh, that was so fun and I loved.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I love, I just think I'm so excited for Queen of Lombard Street. I'm so excited to see what, what she does with this sort of more expansive project. Like 150 pages words.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I don't know if people understand that.

[Sarah MacLean]

A big honkin book, everybody, you know.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like her regular old romance, her regular.

[Sarah MacLean]

Degular romances are probably about 85,000 words. So it's half again at least. And I would. So I'm excited about that. I'm excited about the idea of, you know, I think Lisa has such a powerful, she's such a force in historicals that I think this will hopefully bring more people to her backlist. It'll bring more people to the genre. And I also also think she's so thoughtful about what is, I think she does take really seriously like so many of the trailblazer interviews, her role in, in this work, you know, back to.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like the Queen of Lombard street being more like historical fiction. Right. With like a romance kind of embedded in it. I, I, I imagine that some readers feel that like this is an author.

[Sarah MacLean]

Like turning its back on the genre.

[Jennifer Prokop]

And I just don't think that's true. It's true. Not true for a lot of people and for some people it might be right or you know, but I think all authors as artists really get to pursue whatever course it is that's going to, you know, get them excited and you know, keep them writing. And it's really interesting to have someone like Lisa figure out just like kind of where those edges are for her. And I'm sure that, you know, maybe there are going to be people who are like, I just, just want it to be, you know, St. Vincent over and over again. But like she's never done that. Yep, agreed.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, and I think that's the thing that I keep coming back to as hardcore Lisa Klebus fan is that she, she changes it up every time, you know. I mean. Yeah. And it, and it continues to hit and I think also the books, you know, one of the things that I now of course, we do this as a post game. Right. And one of the things I wish that I had sort of pushed her on was I wonder if she could talk about how the books have evolved over time intentionally.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Like, has she.

[Sarah MacLean]

Did she choose to, you know, write the Hathaways in that way, that sort of. Beverly Hillbillies.

[Jennifer Prokop]

I loved that.

[Sarah MacLean]

Right, that Beverly Hillbillies idea. You know, was it. You know, did she feel called to write it that way? You know, why are the Ravenel books the way that they are? They are a departure from the earlier series in many ways, thematically, you know, so I don't know. I always end up at the end of these conversations feeling like I could have gone another two or three hours.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, 100%. I always love every trailblazer. It's been a while since we've recorded one. You know, back when we were doing them all the time, it just felt like. But every single one of them just feels like a really. A real gift and a way that we are telling our story to each other.

[Sarah MacLean]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've. I've been thinking a lot, obviously, and I know you have, about community recently and about, like, our work and community and what we're doing and the purpose. Our purpose. And I think a lot of people are obviously feeling this way, just sort of like. Like, what are we doing? And I think that the fact that these. These interviews are.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Are.

[Sarah MacLean]

Collected now is. Is essential. And I think it is giving space to our history in a way that is really important. I mean, listening to her talk, I mean, and it's. We've heard other people say this too, but this idea of, like, women always being the B plot and then, you know, her speaking to your heated rivalry really feeling.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, important. Right.

[Sarah MacLean]

And I know we've all been feeling that way. Heated rivalry feels important, but it. I mean, it does.

[Lisa Kleypas]

It.

[Sarah MacLean]

It feels good to know that it feels important to all of us, you know?

[Jennifer Prokop]

Right, right. Or that, like, romance, people really clock. What does feel extraordinary about it is, you know, seeing what we love most in these books being communicated so faithfully on the screen.

[Sarah MacLean]

So, anyway, she's the best, everyone, and that was a really great interview. And I'm so glad she came, and I'm just so glad she came on.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Derek Craven Day, everyone.

[Sarah MacLean]

Derek Craven is the hero of a book called Dreaming of Years You. And if you haven't read it, you absolutely should. And then you can go back and listen to all the other Derek Craven Day episodes. But Derek Craven Day is a time when we celebrate Romance. It's a good day to celebrate romance. And right now, February 4th of 2026, it's a good day to be celebrating literally anything. Just find a little bit of joy in the world and listen to Lisa Kolipus tell us what Derek Craven would and would not do. Also, thanks, Ernie and Maggie for your questions. And everybody on the Discord.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Yeah, and a couple folks on the Discord. So I, you know, everybody, the heated rivalry question was like real low hanging fruit. I think everybody wanted to know that one, so.

[Sarah MacLean]

But I loved your answer. That was my favorite answer.

[Jennifer Prokop]

It was great. Yep.

[Sarah MacLean]

All right, well, everyone, I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Procop. We are Faded Mates. You can find us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us online at Instagram and threads at Faded Mates pod and on Blue sky at Faded Mates. You can find us@faded mates.net where show notes are extensive. You'll see a list of all the books that we talked about in the episode and also a list of all the other Derek Ravenay episodes. In fact, I think you can go to fatedmates.net DerekCravenday and as a whole, Derek Craven, I mean, Eric has. There are charts, there are graphs, there are memes with Tom Hardy. There are. I know this week there's at least one book cover that terrified me. So listen, it gets goofy over here in February because it should, because we all deserve a little bit of goofiness. And celebrate romance today and every day. And be sure to tell us what your favorite Felice Claypus novel is and why. And also be be sure to head on over maybe to the [e-mail] Patreon and play with a rousing round of with Derek Raven.

[Jennifer Prokop]

On the Derek Craven page, there is a text file that Eric has compiled with over 300 of our Derek Derek Craven questions, which is pretty amazing.

[Sarah MacLean]

I mean, sometimes I do just like stare into space and think, like, would Derek Craven drink a gallon of water every day because his doctor told him to?

[Jennifer Prokop]

And like, it's just like reading these. Just like your let your eye fall on something. Like, Derek Craven would never eat baby carrots. And somehow you're right, he would not.

[Sarah MacLean]

Eat a baby carrot. He would eat like a perfectly turned carrot carrot from a French chef. Or like a baby carrot. That doesn't seem right.

[Jennifer Prokop]

No, he would never eat a baby.

[Sarah MacLean]

No. All right, we love you, everybody. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. We are recording this and it is just awful In Minnesota right now. We love our Minnesota Firebirds. We're thinking about you all the time and.

[Lisa Kleypas]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Prokop]

Ah.

[Sarah MacLean]

Stay strong, everyone. We love you.