S08.23: The Chemise Protects You From Boning: Romance Wardrobe

Summary

Fated Mates – S08.23: The Chemise Protects You From Boning: Romance Wardrobe

Date: February 25, 2026
Hosts: Sarah MacLean (author) & Jennifer Prokop (critic/editor)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into "romance wardrobe," exploring the iconic, practical, and often fantastical clothing tropes found in romance novels—particularly historicals, but also contemporary settings. Prompted by Sarah’s viewing of Emerald Fennell’s “Scare Quotes Wuthering Heights,” Sarah and Jen unspool the ways apparel—corsets, chemises, boots, gloves, kilts, tuxedos, and more—carry distinct narrative, sensual, and cultural codes. The conversation celebrates romance novel fashion as worldbuilding, character development, and subtextual seduction, spiced with signature wit and nerdy detail.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Romance [Noun]" Tradition

[00:43] – [01:50]

• Fated Mates is known for playful episode formats: “Romance Law,” “Romance Therapy,” “Romance Horse,” etc.
• “Romance Wardrobe” follows this tradition, spotlighting the recurring, often hyper-romanticized elements of clothing in the genre.

2. The Wuthering Heights Movie & Costuming

[01:50] – [13:09]

• The catalyst: Sarah’s experience watching Scare Quotes Wuthering Heights.
  • “Even in the previews… a photograph of Margot Robbie on the moors…a massive fucking cloud of a white wedding dress…I was like, this movie is gonna be bonkers.” – Sarah [02:11]
• Discussion of historical inaccuracy (white dresses not Brontë-appropriate) and campy aesthetics.
• The Brontës vs. Austen:
  • “Austen is really interested in…being witty…and men with a lot of money…The Brontës are really interested in, like, how terrible can things get for these people who are hot for each other?” – Sarah [05:10]
• Humor and the darker side of the Brontës, Heathcliff’s monstrousness, and over-the-top sensual undertones made visible (i.e., subtextual cunnilingus).
• Clothing becomes integral: “The dresses were amazing.” – Sarah [22:22]

3. Why Dress Matters in Romance

[15:28] – [19:49]

• Huge appeal of historical romance: “the idea of a big poofy dress”
• Covers as fantasy gateways—modern minimalism is mourned: “You’ve taken away the thing that was the most magical…every one of these books is a Cinderella book…” – Sarah [15:28]
• The lushness of romance worldbuilding depends on physicality, including clothing.
• Character development via wardrobe, e.g., contemporary “glow up” scenes in Heated Rivalry.

4. Historical Wardrobe Tropes & Realities

A) Necklines & Exposure
[19:57] – [22:21]

• The low neckline or bared skin as public/private tension: “The sexiest things are when you’re in public, but you’re revealing something private.” – Jen [20:47]

B) Gloves & Touch
[22:21] – [23:34]

• The power of removing gloves and the “12 Steps to Intimacy.”
• “When Dane undoes Jessica’s glove, he might as well be stripping her naked.” – Sarah [22:40]

C) Corsets, Chemises, and "Boning"
[24:05] – [30:39]

• The chemise keeps the boning from harming the skin; corsets are restrictive, literally rearranging internal organs.
• Wuthering Heights scene: “She keeps saying, ‘Tighter’; you can see the skin folding in…” – Sarah [25:40]
• Bodice ripping is mythologized: “There’s just no way a bodice could ever be ripped because that’s fucking whalebone.” – Sarah [29:58]
• In romance, impossible feats of lust and strength are standard.

D) Accessories and Other Garments
Reticule: The classic wrist purse, also a setup for pickpocket rescue scenes. [32:36]
Bonnets & Lace Caps: Comedic gender/age markers (“Only spinsters wear lace caps.” – Sarah [33:41]); symbols of invisibility. Stockings: Romanticized undressing, colored ribbons, and sin (“the second he touches that silk stocking on her leg...he’s gonna roll that down” – Sarah [35:51])
Historical Men’s Clothing:

• Smalls, falls, breeches, the drama of removing layers [43:01–47:31].
• “Placket”/fall: single flap with buttons, undressing as anticipation.
• The greatcoat as hero’s must: “What you wear when you need to get shit done in the East End” – Sarah [54:14].
• Kilt/plaid: the Scottish version of an alluring neckline, clan identity, and national subversions. [56:23–59:40]

E) Medieval Garments

• Bliaut & kirtle: sewn-on sleeves, impossible undressing, fantasy nostalgia (“I just want to wear one of those.” – Sarah [39:58])
• Buttons, zippers, and elastic praised as feminist advances: “The zipper had to have made the same kind of strides toward fighting the patriarchy as, like, suffrage.” – Sarah [42:07]

F) Shoe Struggles

• Hessian boots and the improbable ease with which heroes (magically) remove them. [62:45–63:47]
• Real-life contrast: “We are a no-shoes household… I wish I could make these people take off their shoes.” – Sarah [63:08]

5. The Modiste as Superhero

[61:50] – [62:11]

• Dressmakers/dress shops have transformative powers: “Every modiste is basically a superhero. That’s correct.” – Jen [62:01]

6. Contemporary Wardrobe Tropes

[66:00] onward

A) The “Panty-Ripping” Myth

• Talia Hibbert’s viral experiment: elastic can’t be ripped like whale bone [66:00].
• “Modern day elastic is like the old timey whale bone.” [66:27]

B) Billionaire Magic Sizing

• “He can just look at her and he knows what size she is…In romance clothes, women’s sizing is standard.” – Sarah [68:01]
• Realism vs. narrative shorthand—clothes and luxury brands as class markers.

C) Underwear, Tuxedos & Laundry

• Romance reality: “panties and bras always match and it’s always silk; nobody ever wears Hanes.” – Jen [70:09]
• Formalwear always fits, tuxedos always available–even if the hero didn’t own one yesterday [71:23].
• “We don’t see a lot of laundry.” – Sarah [78:25]
• “Gray sweatpants always fit” trope: comfort and sex appeal no matter the size difference [77:11].

D) Brand-Name Shortcuts & Stealth Wealth

• Armani/Chanel/Louboutin as narrative code for wealth, even when real billionaires wear less recognizable “stealth wealth” brands (e.g. Succession) [72:17–75:41].

E) The Masquerade/Mask

• Everyone is fooled by a half-face mask: “You’re gonna put on that mask…it’s gonna cover a sliver of your face and absolutely no one is ever going to be able to identify you.” – Sarah [76:37]

F) Classic Shirt Details

• The Vanishing Henley: The sexiest shirt in previous eras, now less prominent [79:31].
• The enduring power of rolled-up sleeves: “That pulls through from…deep in the annals of historicals.” – Sarah [80:02]

7. Play and Power in Romance Attire

• Dressing and undressing as a series of escalating acts of trust, intimacy, and delight.
• Clothing as plot device, erotic trigger, status symbol, and personal armor.
• The collective joy of recognizing and celebrating “romance wardrobe” tropes, and the shared language among readers and writers.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “When Dane undoes Jessica’s glove, he might as well be stripping her naked.” – Sarah [22:40]
• “Every modiste is basically a superhero.” – Jen [62:01]
• “You’ve taken away the thing that was the most magical… every one of these books is a Cinderella book.” – Sarah [15:28]
• “The zipper had to have made the same kind of strides toward fighting the patriarchy as, like, suffrage.” – Sarah [42:07]
• “A lace cap is an invisibility cloak.” – Sarah [33:41]
• “Smalls, what wears mediums and large?” – Jen [43:46]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:50] - Wuthering Heights movie, costumes, and Brontë vs. Austen
• [15:28] - Why poofy dresses and covers matter to romance readers
• [19:57] - The erotics of the low neckline in historicals
• [22:21] - The glove as a site of sensuality and the 12 Steps to Intimacy
• [24:05] - Corset, chemise, boning, and historical reality vs. genre myth
• [32:36] - The reticule and bonnets; accessories as plot devices
• [35:33] - Stockings, colored ribbons, and the ritual of undressing
• [39:58] - Medieval garments, the bliaut, impossible undressing fantasies
• [43:46] - The “Smalls” comedy and myth
• [54:14] - The heroic greatcoat
• [56:23] - The myth and meaning of kilts and clan plaids
• [61:50] - Modiste as romance fantasy figure
• [66:00] - The elastic panty-ripping myth (contemporary)
• [68:01] - Magic hero sizing (“He can just look at her and he knows what size she is.”)
• [71:23] - Tuxedos that always fit
• [76:37] - Masquerade masks and the impossibility of real-world subterfuge
• [79:31] - Henleys, rolled-up sleeves, and what’s sexy in modern romance

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Episode Tone & Style

Lively, irreverent, deeply nerdy, affectionate toward romance’s quirks and community, with a persistent through-line of feminist critique and celebration of joy. Sarah and Jen blend historical research, reader nostalgia, craft advice, and comic riffing without shame or apology.

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Summary Takeaways

Clothes in romance novels are never "just" clothes—they are signaling devices, sites of yearning, and keys to intimacy. With tongue firmly in cheek and occasional moments of revelation, Sarah and Jen unpick the practical, fantastical, and deeply meaningful elements of romance wardrobe, uniting listeners in a shared love for the genre’s lush, layered, and delightfully impractical world-building.

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Don’t forget:

• Full show notes and reference links available at fatedmates.net
• Join their Patreon for further discussions and exclusive chats
• Check out sponsor links for books and products discussed

Transcript

[A]

I almost said. This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by.

[B]

Is sponsored by.

[A]

Sponsored by. February.

[B]

Is sponsored by Clothing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Romance clothing.

[A]

Romance wardrobe. I believe we.

[B]

Oh, is that what we're. We're doing it fancy?

[A]

Well, you're the one who made it fancy because you're historical. Yeah, I'm a middle school teacher. There's nothing fancy about the clothes I wear around at any given point. I mean, or me. Right now, I'm wearing my workout clothes and rim. So, yeah, we're gonna do romance wardrobe and tell. Tell the readers. Why Sarah? Because it actually is driven by a very specific experience that Sarah has had, but I have not yet had.

[B]

No. So, okay. Well, you all know that we're doing. You know, one of my favorite things is that we did romance law and romance science and then romance horse. And now everybody in the sort of community of fated maids refers to things as romance. Fill in the blank. Romance. Noun.

[A]

Right. Romance law, Romance medicine, Romance therapy.

[B]

Romance logic, Romance reasons. So we. We're talking about what episode we should do this week, and I will tell you all that. And so we're. You know, we usually work a few weeks out, and we, like, make a big list, and we say, all right, this is going to be the order. Jen, I should say. Jen keeps us on task. I just say, when are we recording? And what do I have to know? Um, and so in this particular case, Jen was like, what about. I think we had romance wardrobe on the list. But I. I was like, well, let's do that, because Wuthering Heights, Scarecrow, Scare quotes. Wuthering Heights is coming out, and I definitely am going to see it because I am a masochist.

[A]

You had a good time, though, it sounds like.

[B]

Actually, I really did have a great time. And I'll explain exactly. I'm gonna give everybody exactly what you need in order to have a good time at Scare Quotes. Wuthering Heights by Emerald Fennell. And so. But here's the thing. Even in the previews for this, I mean, I remember seeing a preview. Not even a preview. I saw a photograph of Margot Robbie on the moors, like, a year and a half ago wearing a massive fucking cloud of a white wedding wedding dress. And I was like, this book, this movie is gonna be bonkers. And the Internet exploded, because white wedding dresses are not victim. Like, do not. Are not Bronte. Historically Bronte appropriate.

[A]

Really learn some things today.

[B]

And I mean, this particular white wedding dress is. You don't see the whole thing, I think, in the preview or maybe you do. But it is enormous. It has a veil that goes, like, over wide swaths of land. Like, it is a very large wedding dress. So anyway, so I thought, well, I'm gonna have gone. I'm going to have seen Wuthering Heights. So we can talk a little bit about that and then we can talk about romance wardrobe. And yes, you're right. I did make a list, but it's not entirely historical. Some of it is contemporary. Oh, yeah. I have a couple.

[A]

I have. Yeah. Mine is not entirely. I mean, I definitely. Listen, I definitely have some historical shit because I'm. I'm not, you know, all I know about romance. Historical wardrobe. I learned from romance. So, you know, I'm sure I have some crazy things I believe. Okay. But we should introduce the podcast.

[B]

We should welcome everyone to Faded mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[A]

And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and wardrobe. No, romance reader and editor. And we're gonna hear about. Because. Okay, so everybody, I have not yet seen Scarecrow. Wuthering Heights.

[B]

Scarecrows. Well, very nice.

[A]

And the reason we keep saying it like that. Sorry. Right. Is because apparently, I think I might have said this a few weeks ago or maybe on Banter plus is apparently the. The, you know, studio sent out, like, a thing, a guide that was like, please refer to it as Scarecrow's Wuthering Heights if you're gonna refer to it. It can't be just Wuthering Heights.

[B]

No, and truly, it shouldn't be. I mean.

[A]

Okay, but I have to tell you

[B]

all, and this is where, you know, we're gonna get serious because I do think, like, when you are of a certain age, if you do end up reading These sort of 19th century novels by women, the, like, it feels like the three, the big three. And I know there are others, but, like, like, I know, for example, that our friends Adrianna and Joanna would say age of Innocence is that one. And that's fine. And I. But I feel like there's a 19th century British women writing.

[A]

Sure, it's a Jane Eyre. Wuthering Heights and Pride and Prejudice.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I even.

[B]

I know it even, you know, and, like, these three are very different texts. Although you can see, like, the Brontes definitely live on a different part of the tree than Austin. But, like, Austin is really interested in, like, society and, like, being witty and being clever and, like, you know, men with a lot of money who are, like, brought down a peg.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the Bronte sisters are really interested in, like, how terrible can things get for these people who are hot for each other?

[A]

And the answer is pretty bad.

[B]

And it's like one of them is like, how about Away from the Attic? And the other one's like, how about he digs up her corpse and fucks it?

[A]

These are dark days. And so even I'm like, maybe I should read these books again.

[B]

Now, listen, I hope you're not listening to this with children, because I don't. I don't envy the conversation you're going to have to have about what I just said.

[A]

Okay. So late to say, headphones in, I guess, everybody.

[B]

I mean, it's not like it's a spoiler, is it?

[A]

Like, it's pretty classic.

[B]

Although I'm sure there's some, like, English major out there who's like, he doesn't. There's. It's not technically in the text, but it is. So we. So anyway, we. When I was young, I read all of these books, and unfortunately for everyone in my life, Wuthering Heights was the one for me. And that is because Heathcliff is absolutely monstrous, but for sure just spends 90% of his time with Kathy with his head under her skirts, which at the time I did not know was a possibility. But now I'm like, here's a hero who eats.

[A]

I believe that is also not texturally supportive. But, you know, we.

[B]

It's the most obvious subtext you've ever read. You're an English teacher, Jen.

[A]

You would get there immediately.

[B]

You'd be like, and here is where the cunningus begins. 100 pages later, and here it ends. Because now she's a corpse,

[A]

dead from fucking.

[B]

Okay, so anyway, listen, Heathcliff is feral. I don't know what else to say. He's my favorite of the three. Anyway, so when they announced that they were doing this movie, it became very clear very quickly that, like, whatever it was going to be, it was going to be in scarecrows. Whether or not they put the scare quotes in the title.

[A]

Right. I think the scarecrows were. I mean, they're textual, but also, we all knew what's coming.

[B]

Exactly. So I think, as I said today on.

[A]

This is not a heated rivalry style. No.

[B]

Heated rivalry did not.

[A]

Fidelity to the text.

[B]

No. Right. That is actually what it was. Yeah. So I said on the Internet today, I have seen Wuthering Heights, and I can confirm it is not Wuthering Heights. I will tell you that if you take a gummy and you think of it less as, like, an adaptation of Wuthering Heights and More as like the color factory. That like color museum that is in a lot of cities.

[A]

Yes, for sure.

[B]

But like, make it historical. You're going to have a great time. Also, Jacob elordi is about 83ft tall, which is, you know, really all I need. It's like a hot Ichabod Crane.

[A]

I don't know if anyone else is having this problem, but now that you know AI is making spell check really bad or like autocorrect, my phone keeps trying to correct it to withering heights. Which is, I think a very. Also a very different kind of movie. Yes.

[B]

I mean, there is some. But I will say I've seen some great puns. The other day I saw somebody on threads say, I want to throw myself off a wuthering height.

[A]

Perfect A plus.

[B]

But I will tell you, I actually had a great time. And I think the reason that you can have a great. I think the way to have a great time is to have two moments here. One is Heathcliff should not be played by Jacob Elordi, a very tall young white man. He just shouldn't be. And so I think we have to set that aside and acknowledge that, like, Hollywood is being real weird with this colorblind, like, casting. Non. Like, I don't even know. Is this colorblind casting? No, it's just putting a white man in a hero in a heroic position. So set that aside. And then I think you really.

[A]

The original colorblind casting, if you think about it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And then I will put. Oh, we will put in Shownotes, though. I read this gray piece, I can't remember where. And it was like a collection of academics. It was like Vulture maybe or the Cut or somewhere. Went and interviewed a bunch of academics who were like, Let me. Let us be very clear. Like this is. And they talk about, like, who Heathcliff is, like, how he should be represented anyway. And then number two is you do have to put the bar on the floor. Like, you just have to be like, I don't know that whether this is going to be. Come in with no expectations at all. And then I think you'll have a great time. There's a secondary character, the Isabella character is. I mean, I was. I. I will tell you. I cackled in, like, not in a. Not in a. Like in a. So in. In the context of this, Kathy and Heathcliff are our main characters. Jen, I'm just gonna give you a quick overview. I. I have read they grew up as children. You've read it?

[A]

I read it in high School. I remember reading it at my high school job. Like, I was working at the gas station, and people come in, and I'd literally be like, excuse me, it's Heathcliff and Gasly. What, do you need gas or something? Okay, fine.

[B]

Okay, well, great. So, you know, so Isabella is, you know, is the way that she is played in this movie is so unhinged that, like, she. It's really tremendous. And so I just, you know, whatever. You're gonna like it. You're not gonna like it. But I would say do not go into. Unless you're the kind of person who's like, I really like going to see things, and then sounding, like, super pedantic when I came out and, like, explain in all the ways that it's not the original text. Sure, you're gonna have a great time with this, too. But, like, mostly just remember the scare quotes and.

[A]

And just move along from there.

[B]

Have a nice time. And then in maybe a month or so, I'll do some. We'll talk about a. I'll do some spoilering. I'll say some things that are. I. I don't want to say yet because people maybe haven't seen them, but I will say, just remember, everybody, before you go, that here, that contextually, it is actually in the text that Heathcliff enjoys a meal.

[A]

Yes. And not just off of the side of the wall. The. A real.

[B]

No, no. And I will say, when he licked the wall, there's some hot kissing you guys. Like, I'm into it. That.

[A]

Honestly, of all the things Sarah has said about this one, like, he's pretty

[B]

feral and it's pretty hot. And when he licks the wall. I did not. I was not clear in the preview how. What the context was, but I, you know, listen, I'm for it.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right.

[B]

I'm excited. I mean, I like a man with hands the size of hams, so it really. I'm a simple man. I'm a simple. No, I'm a simple woman, Jen. I mean, a basic bitch. So here we go.

[A]

Me and Emerald Fennell. Okay, so.

[B]

Oh, wait. But anyway, the dresses were amazing.

[A]

Yeah, that's the part I want. Yeah.

[B]

The clothes are amazing. And Margot Robbie is. Yeah, sure.

[A]

A beautiful woman.

[B]

Top five beautiful person.

[A]

You know, a really cool book I have actually is when she was on the tour for Barbie, they did all of these, like. Right.

[B]

The Barbie dresses from.

[A]

They did all the Barbie dresses and she wore them. Right. And they actually. A coffee table book of her wearing. And, like, she looks like a Barbie like, it's a really cool book. This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Amy Spalding, author of In Her Spotlight.

[B]

Hollywood actor Tess Gardner is extraordinarily famous, but she is not the kind of famous she always dreamed of being. She is Princess Platinum in the Vindicator series, a very pretty face with CGI superpowers that literally sparkle. But she has always been an actress and wanted to prove her chops as an actor. And that means the theater. It means she has got to take a part on the stage. So she lands apart working with a very acclaimed stage director. And like, this is it. This is how she's going to prove to everybody that she is a serious person. Unfortunately, a scandal forces him out and he is replaced by none other than hip, buzzy director Rebecca Fris. The same Rebecca Frisch whose heart affirmly closeted Tess broke a decade ago during summer stock. So Tess is wrestling with a lot of guilt and a lot of attraction to Rebecca, also struggling to rein in her sort of superstar status on stage and behind the scenes and just trying to get some respect back there. But unexpectedly, things reignite with Rebecca. Unexpectedly Tess, we know they're gonna reignite. Um, and she bristles even more against the kind of walls and structure of her A list life. Uh, the industry has made it really clear that a girl next door superhero cannot also be gay. Coming out is not realistic for Tess. Uh, and Rebecca is heading back to New York if they can't make it work. Um, so the big question is, you know, will Tess take a chance on happiness and take the risk in living her true life out in the world? This is real, like Scott and Kip from Heated Rivalry Coded, and I'm here for it. So if you would like to check

[A]

out this sapphic second chance romance with a lot of fun Hollywood behind the scenes as part of the plot, then check out In Her Spotlight. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Amy Spaulding for sponsoring this week's episode. You know, I don't. I guess we don't talk about this enough, but I feel like one of the biggest appeals to me of historical romance when I was young and still is, like, the idea of a big poofy dress.

[B]

Yes. What's the covers? Well, this is why we're all so upset about what's going on with covers now, because it's like you've taken away the thing that was the most magical. Right. Which Is like every one of these books is a Cinderella book. Like, in the sense of they get to put on the dress and go to the ball and, like, we get to live that vicariously through them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I will say somebody de nailed threads, and I'm sure they don't listen to Faded mates because our listeners would never said, nobody is ready to have a conversation about how if you actually had

[A]

a gothic love story, it would be terrible.

[B]

And I was like, I think we're all. We don't have to have a conversation.

[A]

We all know that's fiction. That's like being like, nobody's ever said it'd be terrible to live in a Stephen King novel before. What do you mean? Is that. Does it have to be said?

[B]

What do you mean? What do you mean?

[A]

Text is not text anymore?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Oh, well, that's. Yeah. So.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, and I think, like, even, you know what. And I think even, like watching Bridgerton, I'm sure watching the Gilded Age. Right. The clothes are what is. Are so fabulous. And I.

[B]

But listen, not to bring it back to heated rivalry, but let's bring it back to heated rivalry if we can. There's. I'm not going to be sad.

[A]

I don't think anybody is.

[B]

So here's the thing. Like, I also think, like, clothes. I think romance talks about clothes in a way. I mean, listen, romance is so lush and part of our work, part of the work of, like, world building a romance novel is like this kind of like, I, we. When we think about, you know, in. I'm. I, I'm sure I've talked about this before. I talk about it a lot when I, When I talk about my, like, how to. When I'm, When I give my how to Write a Romance class.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I talk about Desmond Morris's like, 12 Steps to Intimacy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it starts with, like, eye to body, eye to eye. Like, there's sort of how many different ways we interact with each other. And so this kind of idea of our bodies as part of the world building in a romance novel. And so I'll never forget often in a first draft, I'll get into a scene and I'll be writing the dialogue, and I'll just be writing the dialogue. And then I'll turn it into my editor and she'll return the manuscript. And one of the edits that is a very common edit for my first drafts is what are they wearing? Right. Like, what do they look like? What is this Space? How are they existing in space?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I Will say like as much this is true of contemporary. We see it, we see it in contemporary. People do talk about what characters are wearing in contemporary, but historical is really about like all the ways the clothes live in the body. And, and so like it's part of what we do as a genre.

[A]

Yeah. Like there's this great scene in heated rivalry, right. Where essentially Shane has gone like kind of looks sharp, you know, he wants to get his man back. This is like episode five and he shows up at the bar and Ilya looks like essentially like Tom Selleck, which is hilarious. And he like, essentially Shane confesses that he hired a stylist, you know, and he sort of says like a lot of the guys in the the league like just look really good. And I was always wearing like sporty stuff, you know, and. And it really is like there's like a real sense at that moment of like, like an explicit sense as a romance reader of understanding that what Shane really is saying is, I'm a man now and I'm coming for my man. Yeah, right. Like we know what that means. Like the glow up means something in a romance. It means something in Pretty Woman. It means something. Right.

[B]

And. And Pretty Woman is a perfect example too.

[A]

Right. Think like the whole clothes piece of it is really fun and it does a lot of character work, but it also is like, there's a lot of stuff that's like super hilariously romance coded. And I think that's like the romance wardrobe stuff today that we are also going to be talking about.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So let's start. I've talked about a lot. You. You begin.

[A]

Okay, so are we going to start. We're going to start with historical stuff.

[B]

I mean. Sure. Okay.

[A]

I would like to talk about one of my favorite historical, I don't know, true truths about wardrobe, which is having the right neckline can drive men wild. Okay. And the part of the reason that this is really so funny to me is because like. Okay, so I think the other thing that you have to understand is like when I picture these scenes in my head, I'm picturing like lingerie, model style necklines. And then I look at like actual historical photographs of like old timey clothes or like museum exhibits. And I'm like, wait, that's the neckline that drove men wild.

[B]

Well, think about it. Like ankles would send men into the Thames.

[A]

Like it just so I will.

[B]

And.

[A]

But I also the thing that. Okay, so the thing and part of the reason I wanted to start here is I really like the idea though that one of the things I think is a truism about romance, wardrobe largely is the sexiest things are when you're in public, but you're revealing something private. Right. And so, like, the thing about, like, the neckline driving men wild is that it's really this sense, like, especially. Right. Like, obviously we're talking about, like, you know, like an MF Romance here is. Right. Like all of a sudden, this private attraction between them might be made public because of the way he's gonna respond. Right. To her wearing this gown. Or even worse, other people, other men seeing her wearing the gown.

[B]

Like James Mallory.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

No, not James. Is it James? No, it's Devil. It's Devil's Bride.

[A]

It's all of them, but yes. Oh, yeah, it's all of them. Sarah.

[B]

But when she comes into the ball and her neckline is too low and he races to cover her up with his jacket. Oh, so sexy.

[A]

Right? I mean, so I, I, But. Oh, yeah, sorry. But I just really love, like, the whole idea of just, like, I don't know, right. Like this. That there's something just like, so alluring about seeing, Seeing them for the first time this way. Right? Yeah.

[B]

And it's not just that sort of neck. Like, other things go hand in hand with that. Right. Like the glove. Yes. Like, gloves are when the glove comes off in romance novels. I mean, obviously there's one that we think of all the time. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But so when, you know, Dane undoes Jessica's glove, he might as well be stripping her naked. Like, I mean it. And it's so sexy. And I think, like, we, you know, often in a historical, you'll get to a moment where they're both. Neither of them are wearing gloves and they touch for the first time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you can. They can feel each other. Like, that's hand to hand. Right. The Desmond Morris 12 steps hand to hand. Which, like, in now times.

[A]

Yeah, Right.

[B]

Like, we touch, like, okay, like, who cares? It's your hand. Right Then, I mean, that was, yeah. Shattering.

[A]

Right? Yeah. So anything like that, right? Where it's like, you know, the, the neckline, removing the gloves. Like, like, Right. Like sort of that alluring sense of, like, seeing someone in, like, you know, in a way that is almost like, forbidden.

[B]

And.

[A]

Yeah, you're in public because it's a gown and a glove, you know, And I think that's the part that, like, really. And the thing about, like, Dane, especially with, like, the. Is he is. He thinks he's gonna get her and the act of taking off her Glove undoes him far more powerfully than her. Right. And she's like, oh, he's really backed himself into a corner here. Whatever shall happen. And it is great.

[B]

Okay, so, well, let's talk about corsetry, because I feel like this is. This is a key one. So invariably, we. So often, I think people who don't read a lot of historicals get the corset, chemise thing wrong. So, like, let's talk about this. So when you dress. So corsetry in the 19th century and prior to. Is not a pleasant experience. Right. Like, it's not a comfortable structure. It's often made with whale bone. It doesn't. It's not easy to sit in it. In the Regency, they actually didn't wear corsets as often as we see them in. In Romance, but they did wear them before and after. And it goes. And a chemise is basically an undergarment. It's like a slip.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it goes on first, so you're naked, and then chemise goes on. And I mean, this really predates, like, the introduction of, like, the pantalone, which is like an underpant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not sexy, the pantaloon at all, but the interior. So a chemise just sort of floats over you. And then it has a kind of, like, wide neckline that can be, like, arranged, tightened, like, ribboned and fitted beneath your dress. And then the corset goes on over the chemise. And chemise is there to protect your skin from. From this thing, the boning and the lacing.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

There is actually a really great moment in Wuthering Heights where Emerald Fennell loves the. Loves these clothes. I mean, like, it's clear. And this is also in one of the previews or something where, like, Margot Robbie's being. Being corseted. And she keeps saying, tighter. And, like, you can see the. The skin, like, folding her, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Skin folding in on itself because it. She's so tightly.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so. So, like, that sort of boning piece is. Is real. And, like, these ladies could not breathe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

First of all, it was fully rearranging your interior.

[A]

That's crazy. Yeah, that part's not so fun. No.

[B]

And they couldn't breathe, and so, of course they fucking swooned all the time. I mean, it's really great because how many times have we read a romance where, like, she quite literally swooned?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, I mean, smelling salts. It took me years before I even, like, thought to look up what a smelling salt was, because I was like, this is just a thing like, this is a thing that exists. Everyone has them all the time. So, yeah, it's a. So smelling salts are actually like ammonia. They have a very strong ammonia smell. So you would hold them under somebody's nose and it was such a foul smell that it would, like, open your. There. It opens your nasal passages and it, like, makes you breathe and then you.

[A]

Huh. You wake up. Right?

[B]

So. But what's interesting is that in romance, nobody is passing out. I mean, some people probably are. Some.

[A]

For.

[B]

Surely now someone has written the book where, like, they passed out because their corset was too tight. But that's not why people are passing out. They are. Their corsets are on. These are professional women who know how to wear a corset when they pass. When they swoon, they swoon because handsome Rake has said something. Sure, Handsome and Reiki and. And also, I mean, listen, there is something to. I don't know why. Why am I so attracted to the corset as, like, a conceptual sex idea? Right. Like, there is also a moment in Wuthering Heights where he grabs her by the laces of her corset and he lifts her off the ground.

[A]

Well, that's sexy. Yeah, sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like. It's like. Is it like a pretty proto BDSM type thing?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, right. Maybe it's that. But also it's like this is the bodice ripping piece where it's like the strength at which. I mean, listen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Isabelle Carr, who, unfortunately, we have lost to cancer. Cancer. Isabelle was an expert in Regency clothing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She used to give a really magnificent talk every year at. RWA where she would dress. She would make. She had all the clothes. And so somebody. She would get a volunteer and she would dress the volunteer and then show you every. Every layer.

[A]

That's really fun.

[B]

I mean, it was really. With petticoats, with, like, crinoline, with, you know, the cages of those skirts, which. Oh, yeah. You know, people would blow into. Women would be taking walks along the Thames and they would literally. If a stiff wind blew, you could be blown into the river and you would die.

[A]

Because apparently someone. Oh, listen.

[B]

Skirts would pull down.

[A]

Well, someone the other day apparently got blown into Lake Michigan with their baby carriage, and then someone else, like, literally, like, jumped in to save them. So that's amazing.

[B]

Still.

[A]

It is. It is the Windy City, y'. All.

[B]

It is. Oh, and then there's. I mean, in again, the magic she, Alena, is. Is. Is the reason why she has all the scars on her legs. Is because. Oh, that's her first. Caught fire in the fire gr. I mean, like, these are not. I'm sort of all over the place here, but I'm just, you know, giving you some interesting background. But Isabel Carr used to say, like, there's just no way a bodice could ever be ripped because. Right, that's fucking whalebone.

[A]

I'm like, amazing. Yeah, right. That's on my list. Also for more contemporary clothing.

[B]

But the rip. I mean, like my. Listen, these heroes with fists the size of hams, they can rip the shit out of a whalebone corset and then get it done to her. Like, they don't. They don't even. Like, they're not even out of breath until they see it. And then they're out of breath because

[A]

they're like, whoa, it's.

[B]

Holy shit, look at this. Invariably in romance, though, you'll notice now that I've told you this often, they rip the corset and the chemise is gone too. It's like magic. Like if the corset is ripped, it takes the chemise with it.

[A]

Oh, yeah, sure. Okay. Makes sense. This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Blue Box Press, publishers of Larissa I own's Demonica Legacy series.

[B]

This one's for all the paranormal lovers out there. And we know there are a lot of you, Jen. Humans go to hospitals, animals go to veterinarians. But where do injured, ill and beheaded demons go?

[A]

To your bed, Sarah. Yes, but we want them to have head. Sure. I was like, you just walked right into that one. Add over everybody a head.

[B]

It isn't as though every supernatural being possesses the ability to reattach their own head, by the way. So fear not, werewolves and demons and vampires. Help has arrived in the. In the handsome form of three brothers, each an incubus demon by birth. Everyone knows I love an incubus. These are human. Human in appearance, but they have pulled together to make the most of their healing skills that are common to the incubus species. And they've founded Underworld General Hospital. And Jen, you're going to like the tagline for this hospital. This is where sexy Demons are doctors, HMOs are non existent and the blood bank sometimes doubles as the cafeteria.

[A]

If you would like to check out this series, the one that they're releasing or re releasing this week is. Is Cypher. So that one sounds really fun. He's an unfallen angel. Hello. And if your podcast Snap supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to Be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Blue Box Press and Larissa Ione for sponsoring this week's episode. Sarah, what the fuck is a reticule? This is like. This was like my favorite. One of my favorite romance words when I was a kid.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

I believe I actually looked it up. I was like, what the fuck is this?

[B]

Like, on purpose? A little silk purse? Silk sack.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That hangs on your. Hangs on your wrist.

[A]

That just all sounds really dirty.

[B]

Just there so that a cut purse can come and cut your purse, and then a rake can come and punch him in the face.

[A]

Okay. There you go. Yeah, I always like that. Is that how you say it? Reticule?

[B]

A reticule? I think so. Correct us if we're wrong. I don't know that I've ever heard

[A]

it said out loud.

[B]

Well, I mean, it's not like my British mother was like, go get your reticule.

[A]

Listen, call her up right now and ask her.

[B]

Oh, wait, Jen, can we talk about bonnets?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Well, all I know about bonnets is that lace caps and you hate it. And you definitely have to take it off because that's awful.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you only wear. Only spinsters wear lace caps.

[A]

Is that actually true or is that just romance wardrobes?

[B]

Romance rules. I don't know. No, I. No, but it feels like only spinsters wear lace caps.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. That's how you know it's a Spencer. She's ripe for picking off.

[B]

Yeah. And like that. I mean, if you're. Nobody's looking at you while you're wearing a lace cap.

[A]

No.

[B]

And then if you take. When you take it off, though, everyone looks. I think it's. Lace cap is an invisibility cloak.

[A]

It's like a librarian's glasses. I would say that it is fascinating to me because I think a lace cap in, like, romance. Right. Has a very specific meaning. I don't know if Louise has ever told you this. She wrote a book where, like, she kept her free referring to, like, a beaver hat. And I was like, is this in Wisconsin? Like, explain to me the beaver hat. And then apparently that top hat. I was like, well, why didn't you just say top hat? Like beaver?

[B]

It's not a top hat. Also, top hat isn't sexy.

[A]

That's Minnesota. No, but neither is beaver hat.

[B]

I guess not.

[A]

I guess unless you're down there in it.

[B]

Just. You have to wear the hat to get down there.

[A]

You're wearing hat because you're down there, Sarah. Exactly. Anyway, for decorum,

[B]

a reticule Wait, I've got. What else do I have? Oh, I want to talk about. Wait. Stockings. We have to talk about stockings.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Huh. Sure.

[B]

Because they always come with ribbons. I mean, which they do. Everybody, like, there's no. There's no. There's no elastic. Right.

[A]

I mean, once I put that together, I was like, oh, yeah, right, right.

[B]

So there are stockings and they do come with ribbons. And you do tie them. Pretty. But again, like, in history, I feel like you would have to tie them real tight.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To keep them from falling down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway. But the ribbons are always colored, like, and then. And there's always a sort of moment in the book if she doesn't have, like, beautiful stockings that are. Have beautiful colors. There's a moment, like Mick Tramore style, where he, like, makes sure she has.

[A]

Well, this is like Mary Winterbourne, right? Yep. She comes home after getting banged by Winterbourne in his house, and she's like, oh, they're going to figure it out because I've got these fresh stockings on. Right. And I was like, that also, Helen. And the scarlet A on your chest.

[B]

I mean, the. Yeah, the stocking is perfect. The stocking is like. I mean, it's so sinful. It feels like the second he touches that silk stocking on her leg, oh, my God, it's gonna be great. He's gonna roll that down and it's

[A]

gonna be great also. It's going to drive him wild, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. And I do think so. Sometimes as I'm sort of talking about this, I'm thinking, you know, obviously, like, I just finished a book, so. And I came off of the. You know, while I was writing the kind of, like, big sex scene, I was thinking about, like, how in all of my books, like, the sex scenes are. They span multiple chapters. And I know that I write a long sex scene. Thank you, Stephanie Lawrence, for teaching me.

[A]

But the.

[B]

But I do think that there is something to the idea that maybe historicals spend more time undressing.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

That's.

[B]

Now me. Like, I don't know. I have no. I've done no research. I have no data. But it feels.

[A]

It feels like that could be true. Yeah.

[B]

Like, the clothes and contemporaries come off easier. Because they do come off easier. Like, right, zip. Unzip that shit. Get rid of it. She wasn't wearing anything underneath, you know, like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so. Whereas, like, that would never be the case in a historical. So it's interesting.

[A]

It is.

[B]

You can. Like. And also because, like, we've he's never seen the real shape of her legs or, like, you know, they've never, you know, not every. There's so little skin all the time that, like, every new thing that comes off is like a moment for.

[A]

Right.

[B]

His internal monologue to just be, like, screaming.

[A]

And this is. No matter how much of a rake you are, that's just gonna drive you wild. And that's what I like about it.

[B]

I don't care how many ankles you've seen that. One set of ankles.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Agree. Gonna do the job. All right, can we just talk about medievals for a moment and then we can come back.

[A]

Then we can come back to it. Yeah. Can we talk about the BLE out? Oh, yeah. What the. I definitely looked that up, too. I definitely looked that up for sure. Guys, I'm gonna look it up right now and see if I can find a pronunciation.

[B]

Pronounce a. It's the first thing if you. If you Google says. All right, let's see. It's blia. That's French. Blio. That makes sense.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

Sure. A 12th century medieval garnet garment. Let me say it again. A 12th century medieval garment. And so. Okay, this is from the medievals. It is the only word judvaro ever used to describe anything clothing wise.

[A]

True.

[B]

And the structure of this is. It is very fitted in the top. Yeah. Across the breasts, down the waist. And it has, like, lacing. Not like a ribbon that wraps kind of around you. A ribbon that wraps around you and then a, like, slim, but, like, like twirly skirt. Like you could twirl in it. But it's, you know, it's not as, like, big as a region, as like a historical romance cover or skirt. And then those gigantic, like, bell type sleeves.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Tight down the arm. And now these. And I remember this from. Must have been McNaught. I don't think G. Devra ever explained it. So it probably was McNaught.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They were sewn in. The ladies were sewn into these.

[A]

I remember reading about that and being, like, excited. Excuse me. What? But I think that still happens at, like, the Oscars. Now, if you're real.

[B]

Well, yeah, I mean, if you're going to the Oscars.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But if you're just, like, going to find a wolf in the woods,

[A]

Like, I gotta go make friends with a wolf.

[B]

Somebody sew me into my dress.

[A]

No, true. It's true.

[B]

So they were. Because the sleeves were so tight that they would. They would sew down the sleeve and then the bell would, like, hang to the Floor. And so that is a blio. And I fucking. When I was a kid, I was like, I just. I just want to wear those. I want to wear one of those. And now that I'm a grown up and I write these books, like, I am always like, how can I. How can I sneak up?

[A]

Leo? Next Sarah MacLean book is going to have a masquerade.

[B]

Somebody's going to come as Eleanor of Act 10.

[A]

Yes. There you go.

[B]

Good idea.

[A]

Sold.

[B]

I'm. Right now.

[A]

I mean. Oh, I mean, listen, I don't think we're supposed to spend a whole lot of upgrades.

[B]

Also a kirtle. What's a kirtle? K I R T L E. Oh, I don't know.

[A]

A lady. Kilts.

[B]

Oh, we didn't even talk about kilts yet. We'll get there. It's a bust. Supporting gar. Oh, that's the thing that everybody kits me, but I'm literally showing Jen with my hands on my boobs. It's the one where it, like, sews up the middle.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, sure.

[B]

Like a. Like a medieval farm.

[A]

Like you're a tennis shoe.

[B]

Yeah, like you're a tennis shoe.

[A]

I was like, let me do medieval tennis shoe kirtle.

[B]

Sure. And. And I did reference one of those in my short story, A Duke Worth Falling for, because I think I was with Sophie Jordan and she was like, you should put a girdle in it. And I was like, this is like 2022. And she was like, figure out a way.

[A]

You're like, all right, challenge accepted.

[B]

All right, challenge excited and accepted.

[A]

So, yeah, that's really funny.

[B]

And those are also. Those are laced up the front, but actually sewed. The seams are like. It looks also like you're sewed into them. This is terrible. You know what buttons an apps people are like, the flushable toilet is the greatest invention. The iPhone. Get out of here. The button. How about that? The zipper.

[A]

Zipper Elastic. We can go back right to elastic.

[B]

The zipper had to have made the same kind of strides toward fighting the patriarchy as, like, suffrage.

[A]

That's when they started making pockets real shallow. Yeah. Because they're like, oh, we've given them too much. These ladies have much time now that

[B]

they can just, like, put their clothes on.

[A]

You know, I think the other thing that I was thinking about in terms of, like, okay, medieval. We'll just say very quickly, no one has coats or anything. And they're all up in Scotland because that's the only place medieval people lived.

[B]

And yeah, there was no. There was no Middle Ages anywhere else?

[A]

No, nowhere else. They all had just furs. And I'm always like, yeah, they do. I just feels like, you know what? You know, thank God romance wardrobe does not include romance bath, because otherwise we'd really be sunk. Okay, can we go back to historical. Other historical men's clothing things?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Okay, Sarah, this is me being kind of silly, but one of my favorite romance things is if you're talking about a type of clothing for a man called Smalls. And the reason it's especially funny, and I'm sure that's the real name of this item, which, like, to me is like, I always think of it as, like, I don't know if this is true. I'm just gonna describe what I think it is. It's like a jock strap, but soft. Right? Like, you just put it a bit. You just put everything in there, like, little. You just put everything in that little, like, thing. Okay. But the thing that's really funny about it being called Smalls is, of course, every romance guy has the biggest. You've ever seen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so sometimes, like, Smalls, what wears mediums and large. So everybody. Someone out there is really laughing with me.

[B]

Oh, I don't. Somebody out there is like, no, somebody out there is having, like, you guys drive safe. An emotional stroke, because they're like, no, that's not what Smalls are.

[A]

That's not what Smalls are. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't want to know. I don't, I don't want to. Oh, no, I do. But I mean, up until this moment when I thought, jennifer, you should look up and see what Smalls are. And then I think, no, this is just way funnier in my head if I imagine it, like, a little

[B]

amazing.

[A]

Okay, sorry. What are. Okay, tell me, Sarah.

[B]

So Smalls. And I'm just confirming this because I, I, I wanted to make sure that I knew, and I. And I did. So of course. Well, I mean, you know, I don't actually, it is a word I do not use. You don't.

[A]

You don't like spa?

[B]

I, I don't. Let me tell you something. So here's. Here's something interesting about.

[A]

Okay, I'm sorry, I don't like small balls.

[B]

No, that was funny. Sarah, you are. Yes, it's true. Do I have to tell that story again? No. Okay, good.

[A]

Someone else can tell it. Email me and I'll tell you. It's.

[B]

Everybody's balls are just safe with me. It's fine. But I don't write Smalls, and I Don't write balls, but I don't write smalls because it's weird. Like, it's just like a weird word. I agree.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So essentially it's just like undergarments in general. Like, it's a broader sense. So it's like your linen. His linen shirt would be part of it. And then whatever he was wearing underneath his.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, breeches, britches, as they say, which is important because, you know, you said bath. Regency bath.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Undergarments keep outer garments from being dirty and smelly. I mean, not for long periods of time, but, like, at least you could get a few wears out of a pair of trousers.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you're wearing something underneath. If you're not, if you're just like going commando, like a. Like a, you know, contemporary cowboy under

[A]

there, then like, you got to change

[B]

those jeans every day. Cuz, you know, you're just gross dogging it in there.

[A]

Oh, funny.

[B]

So. So. But it's interesting because a word that I use a lot and that I really like is falls.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The fall of his trousers or the falls of his trousers, which is the placket.

[A]

The placket brightens. Yeah.

[B]

Because again, zippers. No zippers. Right. So when you think about, like, I'm gonna really reveal myself as, like. Because I don't think. I often think when people meet me and they don't know what I write, they are often surprised that I write historicals because, like, I don't really come off as being like, you know, a lady who, you know, is, I don't know, historical historically.

[A]

You don't come off as emerald fennel.

[B]

Yeah, I'm no emerald fennel, everybody. So the. But I think that whole thing is real sexy. That sort of like, flap that goes up over the front of a trouser plaque. A trouser front. And it has like the two rows of buttons up along the side, like a sailor pant. But like, yes. You know, less dramatic. Like, I think that's a sexy look for I. I'm sad that men, you know, that went. That disappeared. And so I really like that. And I like to have a heroine. Like, I like it.

[A]

Like, I.

[B]

Often in my books, you'll notice someone undoes those buttons, whether it's him or her. Like, I actually like that sort of pause, that moment. Yeah. You know, it's happening. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Lume Gummies. Consistent, mellow, and super delicious, Lume Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned, whether you're looking for an end of day distressor a midday mood boost or help getting the best sleep ever. Lume Gummies has a strain that's right for you. Also useful for Wuthering Heights in square quotes.

[A]

It's my turn, Sarah. And what I am here to talk about is how much I love an indica gummy, because these offer you that, like, grounded and sleepy feeling, which is like a big deal for an insomniac like me. And so I seem to like, wake up every night in the middle of the night, and sometimes I want to do the thing I shouldn't do, which is like, I don't know, scroll on the Internet or whatever. And instead I like, often I'll like, maybe have a little snack. Like, I try to eat it before the gummy and then I take a gummy and I get back in bed and then I wake up in the morning and I have slept. And so I really think that, like, if this is something where you struggle with sleeping and like, for me, sometimes I can fall asleep, but I wake up, you know, it's not something I take every night. But, like, if I wake up in the middle of the night and I have trouble going back to sleep, like, it's just exactly what I need.

[B]

Well, I mean, yeah, we, we've been doing our ads for Lumigamis for a long time. We've all used them here and, and we're big fans. So Lumi Gummies are available nationwide right now. You can go to lumigummies.com that's L U M I gummies.com and use the code faded mates for 30% off your order. Again, that's lumigummies.com code faded mates lumigummies.com code faded Mates. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken for your first order. Thanks to Lumi Gummies for sponsoring this week's episode. I think, like, historical men's clothing can be deeply unsexy. Like, yeah, my heroes definitely have never put on stockings, even though they probably did put on stockings. And yeah, like, I get them. I was never happier as when I moved into, like the late 1830s and further because then I could get them out of. They could wear trousers.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, because I don't, I don't like that sort of skin tight. Yeah. Look, unless they're on a horse. That's for Regency horse. And then there is a problem, which is. And anybody who's seen the Pride and Prejudice with, with Colin Firth Knows this. That like undershirt that falls like basically to the knee, like.

[A]

Yes, right.

[B]

Like an Ebenezer Scrooge nightgown situation. I don't like any of that. But also no buttons on those shirts because it's. Those are laced up. Yes.

[A]

Well, listen, in all romance some of

[B]

them have buttons, but it's rare.

[A]

But listen, all of them are going to walk around and want to make out with you when their shirt is still tucked in, but also like down around their arms or shoulders. Yes. And that is my favorite thing. Back before Pinterest became like completely overwhelmed with AI slop, I actually had a like Pinterest that was just called like tucked and unbuttoned because I was like, wait, what is happening? I. Right. Like if my shirt is still tucked in, it is button.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like you can't. What is happening? Yeah, but this is. If you have never paid attention to this before, I promise you'll be delighted by just how almost every single romance, like historical romance, it's like, right, that has a clinch. It's like still. It's still tucked in, but it's completely unbuttoned and like hanging off of minutes. Fucking great.

[B]

Yes. I would say if you are interested in men's clothing and if you think like the sort of the real like precision and drama of the historical men's clothing is your kink, you should absolutely 100% read Eloisa James's Desperate Duchesses series, which features the Duke of Villiers who is the. His book is a duke of her own. It's book six in the series and Villier is the most like clothes, horsey, vain, aristocratic, like egomaniacal, self absorbed duke you can possibly imagine. And he is just brought down by Lizette, the heroine of that book. But one of. I mean Eloisa, that whole series like is so, so remarkable because she did like so much. It's set in the 1700s and so it's Georgian and it's set like there are these like big wigs. Like there's a whole storyline one of them that there's like rats living in somebody's wigs. Like, I mean like one of the things that Eloisa does really well is like the historicalness of the clothing, of the hair, of the makeup, all of it. And Villier wears like, you know, he's healed red shoe, red boots and like he's. All his clothes are so like precisely put together and she. The descriptions are lush and beautiful and they. It feels like you're watching, you know, the. You Know, scare quotes, Wuthering Heights, so.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Can we talk about coats?

[A]

Oh, wait, are we still on historical? Yeah, okay, go.

[B]

Let's talk about greatcoats.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Great room. Great rooms. Great coats. Great coats. But smalls.

[B]

Great coats over smalls. All right, so it goes smalls, and then it goes waistcoat, which is a vest.

[A]

Is that how you say that? Oh, also you. Apparently, everybody. It's valet. Not valet. Who knew?

[B]

Yeah, I don't. I don't say. I mean, I know it, but I always say valet. Yeah. Waistcoat over smalls and then over that. And then, you know, trousers or, you know, don't say pants. In England, that means underpants and. Or breeches or trousers. And then over that, a top coat, which often doesn't button. So you need a useless top coat. And then. But handsome with tail, like, you know.

[A]

Sure, yeah. That's good.

[B]

Now we're in, like, Anthony Bridgerton. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's hot. And then a great coat, which is what you wear when you need to get shit done in the East End. Like, my. This lady has gotten into a carriage and gone to a men's club or a boxing den or somewhere, and I have got to go and get her. And so you are top. You're beaver hatting. And great coding. And often you have a cane and you're off onto the cobblestones of the worst parts of London to justifiably punch people in the face and also save the day. And also probably roger that lady up against the wall.

[A]

Sure. I mean, that does seem nice. Maybe, like, turn around so she's in it and give her a little cushion.

[B]

Like, she might get cold. You have to take it off and. And, like, cloak her in it.

[A]

She.

[B]

You might be in a carriage for a long way and your warming brick has become cold, and you have to cover her in your great coat. They're a handy. It's a handy tool.

[A]

Okay, this reminds me. What the fuck is a police P

[B]

E L I S S E. That's an over. That's a, like, little coat.

[A]

Like a little coat. Okay. That's why you need somebody with a great coat. Well, yeah, you just get a little. You got a little coat. Junior Coatlet.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's like a.

[B]

It's long and it has. It's. It's like the. It buttons. It's sort of up to here. It's up to your neck to your chin, and it buttons, like, down the front.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it seems sort of fussy. Yeah, right. I mean, I have to tell You. I really feel. Well, first of all, I'm glad. I'm glad for that. Everybody had petticoats, because heavy as they are, if you fall into a river, like, God bless you, you're definitely dying.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But at least they kept warm.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, but you do.

[B]

No, you need a handsome man with a heavy, great coat to, like, obviously keep you warm.

[A]

Obviously.

[B]

And then the kilt. Obviously. Sure. Which now, listen, if you talk to a real Scott, they get very fussy about romance kilt.

[A]

Because we're now in a completely different romance kilt. I mean, listen, I was pretty sure Roman, all of this was garbage, but I Pretty sure that romance kill was super garbagey. I mean, I just had a feeling.

[B]

Well, first of all, kilts were illegal in Scotland for, like, hundreds of years because those Scots, who knows what they were up to up there behind Hadrian's Wall. And. Yeah, I mean, like, listen, they hated the British. Many of them continue to. And so. And kilts were a sign of their, you know, clan affiliation and the fact that they weren't. They were. And a sort of note that they were more loyal to Scotland than they were to their king. Right.

[A]

I used to sometimes. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was gonna say about kilts, about plaids. The plaids. The jewelry. Garwood.

[B]

Also the plaid.

[A]

I always thought, like, I guess no one's ever like, this is so terrible. I guess I really remember once thinking, like, I guess no one's ever colorblind in Scotland because, like, what if you look at plaid and you get, like, the plaid wrong.

[B]

No one is.

[A]

No one's colorblind in Scotland. Everyone's plaid is completely, completely distinguishable from all the other plats of all the other.

[B]

Exactly. Even though I literally. So I was like, my family name is Mc.

[A]

Are there? Yeah.

[B]

My. My mother is a McLean. And I have the three plaids. The formal plaid, the hunting plaid, and then the. Whatever the third one is. And I.

[A]

The laying it down in the woods plaid.

[B]

Yeah, the one where you fuck in the woods on which one is best for in the woods.

[A]

They had to make their own third one. They realized.

[B]

Actually, I think there might. I. I have. I have two, and then I have a third that I'm actually not sure is a McLean plaid.

[A]

But.

[B]

And they. I honestly, the only reason why I could tell them apart is because the formal plaid is red and the dancing plaid is green. But, like, when put against other red

[A]

plaids and green, I remember being like. Well, also, like, how many different dyes do they have?

[B]

Also, like, Right now, most hunting plaids are green because hunting because it's. Sure.

[A]

You're in Scotland. Right. It's like camo.

[B]

It is. It's camo. It's early cammo.

[A]

Come on. We understood. Yeah, that's my.

[B]

So anyway, Scotland is a.

[A]

The kilt.

[B]

I mean, the kilt. Oh, God. The one. Oh, my God. Julie Garwood, you did it so well. In the bride, when she, like, puts on his kilt.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And he just. She walks. Another example of like, this is basically the Scottish version of the neckline is too low.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yes. Right. She lost his mind, walks into the great room of the keep and he sees her in his kilt and he's just.

[A]

Yeah, game over.

[B]

Gone for her.

[A]

Game over. Yeah.

[B]

And I think that the joy of that is that I think secretly in our, like, hearts of hearts, I think we all men and women, when we dress up, there's that sort of like, I hope I look great.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

You know, like, of course. I want. I want to stop hearts. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Romantasy Letters. Breathtaking romantic fantasy by mail.

[A]

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[A]

I have one more, like, historical thing before I. We could talk about contemporary, but do you have one?

[B]

I could do another one. I have one more. It's about shoes.

[A]

Oh, okay. Mine is very simple, which is. Every modiste is basically a superhero. That's correct. That's it.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

That's a good.

[B]

That's an excellent point. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

Dressmakers are the most powerful people, and they are.

[A]

There's Iron man, and then back then, it was the modiste. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

Exactly. And they always. You walk in and they're immediately like, it's this color and this style and just. And I can tell. I know exactly what. And you'll also have the dress tomorrow because I'm gonna have my, like, rat. My. My. Spilled it overnight.

[A]

Yeah, I. I do like that. I like that. Although you also know a man is like a real rake if he has his own personal. Like, as a preference for a modiste. Yeah. Or.

[B]

And he's always got an account there, too. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Bad news.

[B]

Listen, scoundrel.

[A]

100%.

[B]

Let's talk about hessian boots.

[A]

Oh, sure.

[B]

Lisa Clayfuss loves a hessian boot. I mean, so do I.

[A]

Sword as Lord Byron.

[B]

It's fine. So, I mean, listen, we like a man. We like a man who can wear a big, heavy leather boot. And also, those come off just mysteriously.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. No one ever has to.

[B]

You guys. You know how hard it is to get shoes off in the Regency. And like, every time I'm like. And also what I would say is, like, now, in 2026, here's the thing. I've. Now I'm gonna say this, and it's gonna ruin a lot of people's lives, but whatever. In 20, we are a no shoes household. I think there are a lot of no shoes households now because, like, we just are smart now. We know, like, if you're walking around out there in London in 1840 without really great sewage situations, like what you're trucking through your house is not great. And I don't think I ever really

[A]

cared about it at all.

[B]

But in the last, like, couple of books, I've been like, gosh, I wish I could make these people, like, take off their shoes.

[A]

Yeah, right, sure.

[B]

So if you'll notice, I very rarely. I mean, like, often, like, I often put Clothes on a character. And then like, really try hard to take them off fast because it can be exhausting.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And those boots, invariably, it's like boots were removed.

[A]

Next line, you know. Sure. We don't need to get into that. That's smart. Smart.

[B]

Nobody need. Because probably a servant came in to do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or she's like, yanking his booty.

[A]

Yeah. Like, how is that? Right. Like tumbles across the room.

[B]

Anyway, there it all is. Thanks to Lord Byron for. No, to Beau Brummel for getting.

[A]

When I discovered that Beau Brummel was a real person, I was like, wait, what the fuck?

[B]

Beau Brummel is real. And he is also. Sadly, it's not. It is not a thank you, Bo Brummel situation here.

[A]

Yeah, no, he's a bad guy.

[B]

Yeah. Because. Well, I mean.

[A]

Well, I mean, sure, he.

[B]

Their clothes, men's clothes were really cool and, like, colored and had patterns and were beautiful and, like, were not. Like, they were amazing. And then he was like, yeah, black. Black and white.

[A]

Like, boring.

[B]

Yeah, gray, maybe navy blue. And so. And listen, here's my thing is I wish men in the real world right now were more comfortable with putting on clothes that were beautiful and, like, colored and.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Like, extravagant.

[A]

I do think it's. We're getting better. Well, at like a celebrity level. Yeah. I mean, I think, like, there's been silence. Yeah. Right.

[B]

But I got for Law Roach. Yeah.

[A]

And like, also, like the Met Gala and. Right. Like, I think just like, there's so many really beautiful. So I do think. I hope.

[B]

But I just, like, teach your boys to, like, love color and not to make fun of other boys who love color. Yeah.

[A]

Well, I mean, other kids, like. Yeah. Just like everybody wear their clothes, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. I do have some.

[B]

And then blame Bo Grummel for. Yes.

[A]

Sure. I do have some contemporary things that are not quite as fun as all of the historical stuff. I have a couple too. Okay. So I would like to say that if you were not around back in the glorious days of Twitter, Talia Hibbert once did a really funny thread which has been lost to time, I'm sure, where she, like, challenged her. Her boyfriend to, like, rip off her panties. Because that is always happening. Right.

[B]

Like, you just rip off one hand.

[A]

One just ripped her panties off. And essentially, like, modern day elastic is like the old timey whale bone. You can't rip that shit off. You can't. You cannot rip off someone's panties. And yet. And yet. And so that's always like, one of my favorites. And listen, every time I see it, I giggle. And it was. Right. It was just like a really, really funny thread. It was just like, so hilarious. So anyway, yeah, I would say that's like a modern underwear one is just like, you can't. Also can't rip panties off. You can't. Right. Or bras. I mean, a modern day, like, bra, right? Like. No, absolutely not.

[B]

No. But you can. I did recently see somebody testing the. Can you rep a button shirt open? Sure. I think enough force. I think you really can. I believe in you.

[A]

One of my favorite.

[B]

This is.

[A]

Okay. Not a romance. Not romance wardrobe. But there's a series of books I read that are like, kind of post by post. Reacher read this orphan X series and he is like, you know, an assassin and he has these shirts that, like, are magnet buttons. And I don't know why. Like, of course it's like, amazing. He's gotta rip it open to get to his shirt and then they, like, go back together. And every time it is described, I just think. And then I hope some lady gets busy with you. That's. It's. It's great. Really fun.

[B]

Can we talk about the fuck. Oh, here it is. This is similar to the Mideast in historicals.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But can we talk about the hero, billionaire hero who sends clothes to his.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Like, woman he just met.

[A]

He can just look at her and

[B]

he knows what size she is. And I'm like.

[A]

And all the sizes are the same everywhere across lines.

[B]

In romance clothes, all clothing, women's sizing is standard. And I appreciate. And that's how, you know, these are the. This is the female gaze here.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

There was that thread going around where somebody's like, could you explain the female gaze and the male gaze to me? Like, the female gaze is. All the clothing sizes are the same. An 8 in 1 is an 8 in all the others.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And also the heroes know what the sizes and. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

One of the things I do like about. I will say, like, one of the things I like about, like, contemporary romance clothes is it does feel. I mean, some of this is still super gendered, but I mean, I feel like I've read really sexy. And of course, I'm not gonna be able to come up with a book off the top of my head. Like, I feel like I've read really sexy. Like. Like, for example, like, you know, like romances with, like, two women where, like, one of the women can do this. You know what I mean? Like, I can just identify you on site or well, like, I know your size.

[B]

I took my daughter to buy a dress in Bloomingdale's this week. And this woman, the woman in Bloomingdale's, we were in the soho Bloomingdales. The woman in Bloomingdale's, her name was Coffee. And she was great. And you should all go, if you're looking. If you're in New York and you're looking to buy some, buy a dress. Go see Coffee at Bloomingdale's. And she did take one look at my daughter and she said what her size was. And I was like, really? You think it's not. Yeah, and like. And she was like, no. And, like, she brought a bunch of dresses and she was exactly right. So, like, I do think if this is your profession.

[A]

Sure. But, like, it's never any. But also profession. Yeah.

[B]

A four, a six and eight, a ten. They're all like, sure, exactly.

[A]

It's so different, depending on all that stuff. Well, I say. I would say the other thing that I think is awesome about romance, contemporary romance, main characters, is that, like, their underwear. If it's like, bras and panties or whatever, it always matches and it's always silk. No one ever is just wearing, like, a sports bra.

[B]

Breathable cotton.

[A]

No one's ever wearing, like, Hanes. You know, Nobody.

[B]

Nobody's worried about a uti.

[A]

No, not at all. Which, you know, again, like, I, I. Who did. I, I met somebody once who was like, oh, yeah. I, I, like, really?

[B]

Just, like, always match. I'm sure there are people listening.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

God, that's amazing.

[A]

It's amazing to me is like, higher living. Higher living.

[B]

That does. It does feel like.

[A]

Yeah, like a class. Oh, well, yeah, that too. We have a lot of money.

[B]

Yeah. No, you're right. It's. No, it feels like, like, you know, for me, it's. That's the same as, like, having an ice maker in your fridge.

[A]

Well, I do have that. Well, my thing, too, though is, like, if you are stuck somewhere overnight and you have to wash those things, hand wash them in the sink, they're always going to be dry the next morning. And I feel like when I hand wash things, it's like 110 years later. Oh, I guess that's. Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, well, here's the thing. They are dry when you need them to be dry.

[A]

Okay, there you go. Good point. Fair.

[B]

So fair. Fair.

[A]

Fair.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. I think.

[B]

Well, tuxedos, everybody. All men know how to wear a tuxedo, and they all have one available to them. No one ever like, no one's ever like, I got to go to Men's Warehouse and find a Tuo.

[A]

No. Well, I mean, same thing, right? Like, you need some sort of formal wear of any kind, and you either have it, or, like, you can get access to it, or, like, your friend has it and, like, theirs magically fits you or. Right. Like, some. Some, like, you know, that is for sure a formal way of romance magic. That's just romance science. Right? That's just romance science. Okay. I have a suit, a very specific suit thing that I think is really funny, which is when someone is. Looks at a man wearing a suit and identifies. Right? So this is like, another man or, like, a woman or whatever, Right. Like, their love interest looks at a man suit and identifies.

[B]

I know what you're gonna say.

[A]

It's an Armani suit. It's a Tom Ford suit or whatever. And now it's almost always an Armani suit. And I'm like, okay, I understand. And I actually had somebody explain this to me once. Like, apparently, like, the whole, like, pretty in pink, like, slouched suit was, like, such a really specific, like, look that Armani, like, Right. Like, people say that, but I was

[B]

like, it's been decades, and, like, they don't look the same anymore.

[A]

Right. I was like, like. But I kind of feel this way, like, when someone can identify, like, the exact notes of a smell. Right.

[B]

Oh, well, that's romance smell. That's a different thing.

[A]

Sure. But, like, I feel like being able to identify the. The. The designer of a suit just by looking at it.

[B]

Oh. For like, a normal person, I'm like, what?

[A]

No, like, again, like, that's. A menswear suit is a very different thing than, you know, like, it always really makes me laugh. Like, again, now, if this is a person who loves fashion, but it's just like, a regular Normie, like, you look so great in his Armani suit. How do you know?

[B]

But did you see also there was a thread recently, and it was from a woman who was like, you guys need, like, if you're writing billionaires, if you're writing wealthy people, like, like. So this actually was a thing that got talked about a lot when Succession came out. Right. And, like, here they were. The. The dressers were dressing billionaires.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so it was like, how do you dress the characters of Succession?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because there is a whole other echelon of, like, clothing, money.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

That for. Yeah.

[A]

Rich people. Yeah.

[B]

And the. The phrase is stealth wealth. Like, and it's like, they wear a cashmere Sweater. You can't get it unless you have, like, access to this particular show, this particular shop. And it's like, you know, whatever, $8,000 a sweater.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so. And. And somebody. I can't. I wish I could remember who it was, but I did read every. She posted. Like, it was, like, 25 threads. Yeah. And it was all the different. Like, these are the watches they would be wearing. These are the shoes they would be wearing. And it was, like, brands that you have never heard of unless you have been very focused on stealth wealth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So one of the things that I think is really interesting about that and it speaks to this Armani thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have two things to say about this. One is it doesn't matter that it's not what a billionaire in 2026 would wear, as long as it codes to the masses, the readers expense. Right. Yeah. So, like, I could give you the brand of, like, tuxedo that billionaires wear now, but it would mean nothing to you.

[A]

Right. Of course.

[B]

So Armani means.

[A]

That means something. Yeah. Right.

[B]

And therefore, that's what I use. The other thing that I think is really interesting here is that in contemporary clothing, and I think Armani is one of those interesting, like, Chanel. I think there's some, like, things that pop up Louboutins, like, in text, where you're like, oh, like, that both codes. Fancy. And it also will endure. But, like, this is another situation where, like, the pop culture reference. Will it endure.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, reference to whatever clothing brand. Will it endure? And I remember having this conversation with my editor when I was wrote Storms, because I was like, listen, it's very realistic that, like, I could name the brands that these characters are wearing. Like, I had done a bunch of research on stealth wealth. Like, I knew I. I had, like, a list of things they could be doing. And she was very much like, I would prefer you not.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, so that it just feels timeless. Like, it's. It's.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, blends in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even though, I mean, obviously, when you're writing a contemporary novel, it's not gonna blend in. 20 years from now is not gonna feel sure.

[A]

Right. Like, there's gonna be so many things that are different.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So those are just two thoughts about that. And then, of course, I feel like we must have a nod. Although we did do an entire episode on the Masquerade Romance mask.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Which nobody's gonna recognize this. You're gonna put on that mask. It's gonna cover a sliver of your face, and absolutely no one is ever going to be able to identify you. Although I think I've said this before on the podcast, but I will. I feel it also bears repeating that Zooey Deschanel, if you see that woman without her glasses on, it really does work. If she changes her hair color, she looks like two completely different people. So. Okay, maybe it is.

[A]

All right, I have a few more. Wait, I have some more. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right. In contemporary romance, your love interests gray sweatpants will fit you no matter what. Right.

[B]

So it's like they like expand and

[A]

contract as at will or like shorten our. Is really often what it is. Right. Or lengthen. Right. And. And I appreciate sometimes like, like in the first Hidden Legacy book or one of them, like, Nevada's like, wearing Connor's like, sweatpants and she's like, kind of bitching about how they're like, tight across her thighs. And I just really appreciated that. Like. Right. But I do feel like. Right. Like sweatpants are like, super sexy and that is great. But like, regardless of any actual on page description in the difference between the love interest body sizes, those sweatpants, if it is a prelude to or post sexual situation, boom, they're gonna fit there.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Right? They just are. Yeah, that's it. I mean. Yeah, that's for sure. That's all. That's how it goes.

[B]

That's just science.

[A]

That's just science. That's just romance science.

[B]

Also, I feel like often I feel. And I feel like this is true of all romance. Like, we don't see a lot of laundry.

[A]

Oh, no, no.

[B]

We don't see a lot of clothes being laundered. You know, Zoe Castile has that great book Stripped.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Right.

[B]

Where like, it begins actually with them having their laundry mixed up by the laundromat, which is fantastic. It's a great meet cute. And his. His stripper thong ends up in her basket or whatever for work and she doesn't have any clothes and she opens her new laundry bag and there's like, like all of his stripper clothes inside. It's terrific.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, even, like you've got a bunch of kids and there's no laundry. Like, it just doesn't even really exist. Perfect.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

Right? Exactly. Talk about female gays. Right? You know? Yeah. And then I would say the other thing, I guess. Yeah. I feel like we have seen a bit of a. A waning a belief in the power of a Henley as being the sexiest shirt a modern man can wear.

[B]

What do you think is the new sexiest shirt A modern man.

[A]

I don't know if there is one. I just feel like it used to be like, so predictably, like the description of like. Right. Like, if he's like. You know. I do think, however, I think Ann

[B]

Lane's a pretty great shirt.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

But I mean, I feel.

[A]

Still sexy, but I feel like it used to just like always, like be the shirt. I feel like, however, rolling up those sleeves.

[B]

And I was just gonna say, right. That indoors.

[A]

Yeah. That. It doesn't matter.

[B]

Listen, that comes for.

[A]

That's.

[B]

That pulls through from. From like deep in the annals of historicals. I mean, like that white.

[A]

That. Yeah.

[B]

The smalls. And not necessarily a button down pop. Could be a lace front.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But those. Those sleeves are gonna roll up. Here's what I will say, a very sexy thing that Joanna Shoup does in her books. Oh, we didn't even talk about the bustle. But also there's a bustle. But Joanna does this in her books. And actually it's really interesting. You may. If you ever watch Miss Scarlet and the Duke, they also do it there. And I think it's such a clever. They don't even reference it. But when the Duke puts on. He's changing clothes at some point in his office and he. That man is also gigantic. So when off the rack began. Clothing off the rack began in history. One of the things that is the problem is a men's shirt can be like whatever size it needs to be. It can get larger and smaller. I mean, a woman. Woman's clothing should do this to everybody, but like patriarchy. But sleeve length.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is difficult. Right. So they wouldn't necessarily. It was early days of off the rack. Like it was for, you know, working or middle class people. Like, they couldn't get all their clothes tailored. Yeah. So they would get their shirt to fit through the chest and then the sleeves would just be long. And then what you would do. You've probably seen this, like there's like a black band, an arm band that like fits around a man's bicep. And they could pull or fits like sort of lower than the bicep above the. Above the elbow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what they would do is pull the sleeve fabric up through the sort of tight band and until it was the right length on the hand, like on the cuff.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then they would put on their jacket and it would look like their sleeve was the correct length. And that's a cool little thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not saying that's necessarily a romance thing, but it is a Cool little thing that, like, makes historical things.

[A]

I am sometimes convinced that, like, a romance, a historical romance author in particular has challenged themselves to take something roundly considered unsexy and making it sexy like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I would also say, like, in the Devil of Downtown by Joanna Shoup, he's wearing, like, a union suit. And I was like, ex.

[B]

What?

[A]

That's sexy.

[B]

Which can be deeply unsexy because it just looks long underwear, everybody.

[A]

Right, exactly. With like, a shoot in the back or whatever.

[B]

But no, it's not sexy when Jack puts it on.

[A]

Nope. So, yeah, sometimes I do think that I see, like. You know what I mean? I am, like, really fascinated.

[B]

Did you ever wear. Watch the one in the Old West. Oh, I do. Deadwood. Deadwood. Thank you, God. Did you ever watch Deadwood? Hell, yes. I watched Alice wearing Jim wore a union suit.

[A]

Yeah, he did.

[B]

It was not.

[A]

It was that sexy. God. Remember the scene where, like, you know, the sheriff finally gets with Alma and she takes off her. And she's wearing the most beautiful, like, undergarments I think I've, like, ever seen. Like, it was just, like, everything was so lovely.

[B]

Deadwood is such a great show.

[A]

God, I. Everybody watch Deadwood. Yeah.

[B]

First of all, it's. It's like Shakespeare. It's the writing so good. And, like, there's a character that. There's, like, a very shifty. Like, he's the innkeeper and he's like. He's just grifting all the time. Like, he's so smarmy and grifty. And I read somewhere that the head. The writer of Deadwood. And it's another. It's one of those shows where there's only one writer. Like, he wrote all the episodes and all the scripts and. And that he. This guy was, like, not good at memorizing his lines. Like, he was. He was always nervous about, like, not getting the lines perfect. And he. The. The showrunner loved seeing him sweat. Like, he thought it was just such a good. Like his nervousness about the lines was coming through and, like, making him, like, even more smarmy. And so he would rewrite lines right before the scene every episode.

[A]

That's real messed up, ma'.

[B]

Am. Which is torture. I mean, like, that's tormenting your. Your cast. Don't do that, everybody. But, like, God, it really.

[A]

It's funny. That's great. A plus.

[B]

Anyway, Deadwood's great. You should all go watch it. But. And then you can see the union suit in the not sexy way. Then go reread Devil of Downtown, you'll be fine.

[A]

It's a sexy one. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

That's it, though.

[A]

That's all of the things I had for romance wardrobe.

[B]

I love this. We have definitely forgotten things.

[A]

Of course. I think people will be like, here's what you forgot. And we'll be delighted by it because there are surely many things.

[B]

Yeah, I don't have anything else either.

[A]

All right.

[B]

To say that, man, I love romance novels.

[A]

Same.

[B]

Sometimes I just sit in my office and I think, gosh, I love romance novels.

[A]

Same. Same. That's, you know, that's why we're two peas in a pod.

[B]

I just do. I love them so much. Everybody.

[A]

Like, I love it.

[B]

I love how we, like, have all these weird, like, subtextual things. I love how, like, we all know the word blio, even though we don't

[A]

know that word at all. Like, I just.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Yeah, me too. And that's why I think these episodes are particularly fun, because you're really, like, okay, now we're really in it, right? Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I just. Yeah.

[A]

Thank you to all of the writers

[B]

who came before who gave us all these delicious, weird things to play with. I am Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Procop. We are faded men. You can listen to us every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Also, if you head over to faded mates.net you can listen to us there. But if you click on episodes, you'll get the full show note experience for every episode. In episodes like this, we list any books that we talk about, we listed articles, or, you know, information that we find as we go. Maybe. In fact, I have a little time this week. I think I will make sure that we. That we link to some of these

[A]

weird little things that are really fun.

[B]

So you can learn a little more about historical historical clothing if you'd like to. You can also find us online at Instagram and threadsdatedmates pod and @blueSkyDamates. If you like talking about romance novels. And if you too, love romance novels, head over and join our patreon, where you get one extra episode a month and access to our discord where people are talking about romance novels all day, every day. You can talk about your favorite things in romance wardrobe and all other things as well. It is coming up on the first weekend of March and I am going to be in Rhode island with speaking of historicals, Adriana Herrera, Elizabeth Everett, Joanna Shoup, and Caroline Linden talking about historical romance and why it endures.

[A]

A bunch of those panels will be

[B]

moderated by Kate Canterbury. You can still get tickets. It is free and open to the public, but you must register to attend. And if you'd like to come and hang out with us for a cocktail party afterward, there is a ticket for that, too. Links will be in show notes. Anything else for you, Jen? Nope.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Well, we think you're great out there. We hope you're dressing, too. We think. We hope you're blowing the doors off with whatever you're wearing right now. You all look great. You all do look great. We love you.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

Sa.