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Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
S08.25: Heated Rivalry Read-Alikes with Christopher Rice
01:44:08
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- [00:01]
A
I'm so excited about this episode.
- [00:03]
B
Me too.
- [00:04]
A
And because I feel like we have been preparing for this for a long time, and we were waiting for the exact right opportunity to bring Chris Rice back. Everybody, we're so excited to have Christopher Rice slash, see Travis Rice back with us. And it's to talk about everybody's favorite show.
- [00:32]
C
Oh, my God.
- [00:33]
B
Bridgerton season four. I'm kidding. Sorry.
- [00:36]
C
No, I'm on the wrong episode 90. Nothing against Bridgerton. You've enlisted the wrong expert. I'm sorry. That was a lovely translation of the fact that I harass you all the time to try to come on this podcast. This is my favorite podcast ever.
- [00:51]
A
Oh, stop it. We love having you. Eric thinks you are. I mean, we're not actually. We probably shouldn't say this publicly, but he could take it out if he wants. But Eric thinks you are our best guest.
- [01:05]
B
Every time we're like, we're gonna have Chris back on, he's like, yes. Good job.
- [01:09]
C
Good, good. And you know, what I said last time I said that was male bias, you know, and possibly you pointed out an unreasonable. Let's just say an accurate expectation of what I would be talking about during my appearance on the show. But yes, you know, we men, we gotta together in romance because there's, like, four of us, and one of them's married to Sarah.
- [01:32]
B
Amazing. That is true.
- [01:34]
A
Yeah. Everyone, welcome to Fated mates. I'm Sarah McClain. I read romance novels, and I write them.
- [01:40]
B
And I'm Jennifer Prokup, a romance reader and editor. And we are here with Christopher Rice and Chris, one of the things I want you to talk about is, like, so we're gonna. Obviously, everybody, we're gonna be talking about heated rivalry today. And I really wanted to start off by talking about, like, before we, like, get read alikes, essentially, what we're all bringing to the table are if you liked heated Rivalry, we think here's some books that you will like. But before we, like, do that, this is the first time that we've talked about heated rivalry now that, like, we've all watched it, right? So Sarah has finished it. And so, Chris, do you want to talk to us a little bit about your experience with heated Rivalry? You were a delight on threads with it.
- [02:21]
C
Oh, thank you. I was so braced for crap. I think, you know, I really wasn't. And I'll be really honest, I hadn't read the book because I'm not a hockey person. And as much as the lovely ladies of the ribbed bodice here in LA were like, you really don't have to know any. Know or care anything about hockey.
- [02:39]
A
You don't have to be a hockey person.
- [02:41]
C
Yeah, I just didn't. I was like. And I knew it was being made and it was being made very quietly compared to the production of Red, White and Royal Blue. Not entirely fair to compare them because one is a rom com and the other is really, I would say, an erotic romance. So. But the production was happening in Canada and it was very quiet. And I remember the pictures of the boys thinking. And I'm thinking, they're kind of cute, you know, whatever. And I took a wait and see approach, knowing nothing about the book, knowing that Rachel Reed had a wonderful reputation in the community and that she had all these fans, and also having seen the books treated with some passion and respect by this sort of slowly growing community of male book talkers and bookstagrammers who are engaging respectfully and as fans with male mail, which feels like a recent phenomenon to me. So they were talking about the whole series and all this, so it was on my radar screen. But I just. And I think this is true of romance fans. I think this is true of anyone who feels like they are in a media minority when it comes to film and television. You're just braced for. There's a lot of subpar stuff that gets served to us, and you're just braced for it to not be very good, so. Or you're going to apologize for it. And, you know, we've had some queer holiday movies that have been fun, but they haven't. They haven't been made with what was immediately apparent to be the excellent filmmaking and performances of this show and writing. Because from the moment they meet, the first scene, which is as it understands Eric Shawquin, my podcasting co host and best friend who is with me, who was also a loon with me, he pointed out to me, it's not. He went and read the book. It's not actually the first scene of the book, the first scene of the show. But Shane walks up and introduces himself to Ilya as he's smoking outside the rink. And the chemistry between them two, the two of them, excuse me, the simplicity of the shot, the way they looked at each other, they were all the red flags I was looking for of two hesitant actors who don't really want to be doing this. They have misgivings about playing queer, all that sort of stuff, none of it was there. They were all in. The chemistry was immediately on fire. And I think I lasted until probably the water bottle scene before I Started texting Eric about this and was like, we have to sit up. Like, they did it. This is really, really, really hot. And so I did my post on Threads where I said I was committed to watching it as a consumer and sometimes critic of gay media through that objective lens. And by the end of the first episode, I was licking my television like a dog hole and panting on all fours because it was like, this is what it needs to be. This is what. And I think that's part of it. I don't want to speak for the entire kind of romance community in terms of our response to this, but like, two things happened which was. It was all in expertly done male. Male romance, which was like, oh, my God, off the charts. But it offered up a production and style, filmic style, blueprint for how to propel an erotic romance on screen.
- [05:53]
A
Yes.
- [05:54]
C
That's not always been done. Excellent. So I think a lot of the writers, even if they were romance writers or romance fans who were not necessarily male. Male fans before they started, they were like, oh, my God, I see how it can be done. And I see how my favorite books can be done in this way if they are as erotic as this book is. So it was just. But that's all the us of it. I mean, that's all the romance land of it. Then it broke containment and it was
- [06:20]
B
like, yeah, it's a big way. Yeah.
- [06:21]
C
Yeah. I mean, it's at the point where Eric and I are every night we say goodnight by texting each other like three or four pieces of heated rivalry edits, or we don't even do the edits. We mostly just do the coverage that's happening. And the other. And the. Oh, my God. And the two of them, it's just amazing. So, yeah, I could go on and on forever.
- [06:40]
B
Well, and that's why we're here, because we want you to. Right. But I. I have been really fascinated too by the. Like, the show has been over now for months and yet the pieces still keep coming. Like, I don't know if either of you read the piece in the New York Times by Wesley Morris. My friend Sundee sent it to me. I thought it was beautiful. I mean, and this is, you know, so now it's, you know, people who. Critics who typically do not engage with romance really in any way, or romance products in any way. Right. But are coming to the table. Like in this case, you know, Wesley Morris, like, the first line of this essay is, as a man who loves men, as a man in love with a man. I was Surprised by how little I wanted to watch a man fall in love with a man on TV and then really unpack. Right. Like, sort of here's a person who's like, I thought I knew what it meant to engage with gay men on screen in some way, and yet this took me by surprise. Or it found like there was sort of like, I think of it like, you know, those, like, you know, found there was something in him that unlocked because of like watching this show and. Or, you know, to this day on threads, every day I feel like I can see. Or blue sky, right. Somebody sort of saying like, you know, what if in book three, they break up? What if. And, you know, people sort of us being like, come on. Well, it's romance.
- [08:08]
A
The other day say, lucky for you, it's a romance novel. So that definitely won't happen.
- [08:13]
C
Exactly.
- [08:14]
B
And so I've also just been really fascinated by, like, the legs on this show in some way.
- [08:22]
A
Doesn't it feel a little bit, you know, Chris brought this up and, and, and I think it takes itself so seriously, right. Like every person involved, it feels like when you. I mean, at the risk of sounding sort of. I don't know, what about other romance. Other. Other romance adaptations or romance adjacent adaptations? Like, often you sort of feel a thread of like everyone in here thinks this is a little silly.
- [08:51]
C
Yes, yes. Wink, wink.
- [08:53]
A
I mean, it just does. It just feels that way. And even in the most beautiful, like, most elaborate moments, you sort of feel like everybody here sort of is like, I don't know, but heated rivalry. One of the things that's so powerful about it is that it feels like everyone top to toe, right? Like from Jacob Tierney and his producing partners to these brilliant actors, right down to like, the people who are the grips on the set are taking it seriously. Right. This is a beautiful story. It's being told beautifully. It has such a strong. I've been talking to Jen ad nauseam about how one of the things I love about it is how. What's. What a strong point of view visually it has. How aesthetically it feels so. So right and so tied together and everything is so perfect about the aesthetic of it. And because of that, because it's this text that is. It is so clearly taking itself and its primary text so seriously. I'm sort of shocked by how the world is taking it so seriously. I mean, even the jokes about it are, like, clever thought out. Nothing is cheap about the way people are talking about this show in the world. And I'm. I mean, just to bring up the fact that during our first snowstorm here, our new mayor got in front of, did a press conference and was like, hey, heated rivalry is free this week from the New York Public Library, so you can download it and stay home.
- [10:28]
B
Right, Right.
- [10:29]
C
Yeah.
- [10:29]
A
Like just. And no one is. No one isn't.
- [10:34]
C
This whole experience for me has been one of those. If you had told me five years ago or 10 years ago, I mean, the further you go back in time, the more astonished I would have been. But even five or four years ago that this was gonna happen, that George Bush's daughter, who now runs the Today show, was gonna be interviewing Rachel Reed. I mean, there's a lot to unpack there. But like the man who tried to. The president who tried to pass a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, now has a daughter, clearly wants nothing to do with this politics. Delightedly interviewing the author of the. What has gone on to be the most famous. Mm. Romance of all time right now.
- [11:18]
A
One of the most famous romances, I mean, of all.
- [11:21]
B
Right.
- [11:22]
C
Yeah, it's. It's incredible. I mean, I think that there is a parallel experience, but not an exact similar in certain ways, but markedly different in terms of the text. Brokeback Mountain felt this way to an extent. It had that quality that you're talking about. If people were talking about a thing they never would have talked about just a year or two years before. But there were a lot of jokes about Brokeback Mountain. And it's a tragedy. It's not a romance. And I remember being. So Eric and I went to a screening of it here in Hollywood when the buzz was spreading and it wasn't out in theaters yet. And I just remember feeling so fed by it, because in that moment, there was no even conceiving of a gay romance ending happily on that scale, on that scale of media in a major motion picture. We weren't there yet. And I talk a lot about that, and I've written about that in blog post and stuff about where the gay community was or the queer male community was psychologically, in terms of its receptiveness to romantic stories. But the point was that that was a moment like this, and this has built on that so exponentially. It took a long time, but it's happening in a conservative political climate like everything about it has been this refuge in this island that we all, I think, needed.
- [12:41]
B
This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Blue Box Press, publishers of Dre you by Jennifer L. Armentrout.
- [12:49]
A
Abby Erickson and Colton Anders went to high school together a decade ago, but they didn't run in the same circles. Abby had a boyfriend who quickly became her husband after graduation, and Colton was like the really like hot high school, like superstar and she knew who he was and she certainly had a little look at him now and then. But like she had a boyfriend and was getting it done. So now it's 10 years later and unfortunately Abby is a widow and she even more unfortunately has witnessed a murder. And that puts her directly in the crosshairs of both the killer and the incredibly sexy, all grown up Colton, who turns up as a detective investigating the crime. His job is to protect her from the baddies, but the truth is that in order to do that, he is definitely gonna have to put his hands directly on her body. And it's romance, law, romance, crime solving, and I'm looking forward to it. I'll be honest. This is a book that came out a while back when Jennifer was writing as Jay Lynn, and it's being repackaged by our friends at Blue Books.
- [14:07]
B
This is a fun book of romantic suspense that you might love for if you're a returning Jennifer Armentrout fan or maybe are looking to discover something new by her that you may have missed. This. This is available in E. Wherever books are sold and if your podcast supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Blue Box Press and Jennifer L. Armentrout for sponsoring this week's episode. I'm sure we've all been frustrated in some ways with, like, some of the discourse around this, and one of the things that I found, like, really interesting is sort of the. And I don't think I'm the only one, right? Like the kind of, like, why do women love this show so much? Kind of conversation. And kind of like, my, like, simple answer is like, well, because women love romance. Like, you're not surprised to find cars at the car dealership. Like, right? You're not surprised to find women showing up for a romance property. But I also think like it. So I mean, to me it's kind of far more interesting to ask, like, well, are men watching it? Right? Like, you know, so how do you. How does that. But also it feels so reductive, right? Like, this isn't, you know, this is a story about two men falling in love. And so does that feel like erasure to you? Like, sort of the prevalence of that kind of conversation? Like, but why are women watching it? Or how do you land on some of those, like, those kind of conversations that have been kind of non stop.
- [15:41]
C
That side of it has been very complicated. You know, when I knew it was coming down the pike, when I knew it was getting ready to be released, I thought, well, gay men are just gonna ignore it. They're just gonna completely ignore it. They're gonna hear that it's based on a book by a woman and they're gonna ignore it. It's not even an American production. It has all these strikes against it. And that did not happen. That did not happen. And I was watching because I'm one of those I will not watch until all the episodes are up. And boy, did this show test me in that regard because it was everyone around me just converting. Yeah, I know. I'm like, I need to. Cause I wanna binge or maybe I'll do night.
- [16:17]
A
I spent a lifetime waiting. I'm not waiting anymore.
- [16:21]
C
I know season two, I'm not gonna be able to do it. I'm gonna have to. It's gonna maybe break Eric and I's friendship because he's really good at waiting. But anyway, so it was happening that the gay men who were not in my romance sphere were watching it and loving it and posting about it. And the people in my romance sphere who'd never been big male male people, they were watching it and posting about it and texting me about it and oh my God. In terms of the question of like the different. Was there a different kind of spectatorship between the gay men and the women who were enjoying and sort of talking about it and feeding the fan community? It's a very weird, lonely thing. Well, it's not lonely. It's lonely in terms of other men. It is very weird to be a guy who loves male mail, who writes male mail as I do, who talks about it respectfully and enthusiastically. Because most of the gay men I know either don't know anything about it or they dismiss it out of hand. There are very few of us who are actually in the space. And what is frustrating, and it happens a lot, and it has happened to a certain degree with heated rivalry is that visible, loud sort of queer male voices on the Internet who don't really know romance and don't like the idea of mm romance talk over us. And it becomes this firing line. And those of us who were, I mean, not to name names, but I maybe gave a two hour interview about this to a very major publication. Facts that I had offered were laced all through the piece at the end with no attribution. And there was not a single quote from me and the piece was maybe 20,000 words long. There are moments like that where it feels like the major erasure of men in male male is being done by queer men from outside of male male who. We don't fit their binary narrative. Right? We don't fit their narrative that this is just fetishization, which I can. I love that word, but I can never pronounce it. So it drives me a little crazy. But. And I think the important point that I have tried to make, even though I haven't already always been quoted about it, is that I see the division in audience reactions with the guys along generational dividing lines. The younger the reader is, the more they had queer YA know, a lot of trans voices in queer YA that got a wonderful platforming and audiences over the past few years, right? A lot of. And that segment of the audience, they want the boys and the girls and the trans characters and the non binary characters to go to prom together. They want those romantic happy stories. The older my generation, the Zelensky millennials, the Gen Xers are more suspicious of it. They're more inherently suspicious of it. And some of us do the homework and some of us do the research and we learn that the genre is more diverse than we maybe think at first glance. I was very contemptuous in the beginning, before I had read any of it. Just the idea, but all of that. I think the thing that I've tried to articulate and that I witnessed was that around 2014, I think it was when I started entering romance land and I was entering because I was. Was investigating male mail. But it was clear to me that this booming, successful wing of the publishing industry, if not several wings of the entire publishing industry, was becoming invested in this question of depicting men together and to a much lesser extent, women together romantically and authentically. They were agonizing over depictions that they didn't think met the mark. They were having panel. I was on the first sort of panel track at RT Romantic Times booklet Lovers in New Orleans. And there were all these conversations happening. And as I've said previously on this podcast, that was not happening in any other corner of publishing I visited. Thrillers are. So I saw it as this act of we were being included and invited in. But I didn't see a lot of men accept the invitation. Some have. I mean, we've got authors out there who are male. We have authors out there who were not comfortable revealing their gender identity when they first started around that time. And they were using pen names and understandably so. But I think in General, the discourse about this show among men has been so much better than I thought it would be. But my expectations were really low. Like, the bar was really low because I have just been so dismissed. I mean, I had some male friend of me say, oh, you write these sexually explicit. Is it sad that everyone who reads them is a sexual compulsive? And I was like, bitch, take a seat. What are you talking about? It was just. There was no understanding. They thought it was porn. They saw all this sort of stuff. So I think the thing that I have said, and it's not an uncontroversial thing to say, is that in the beginning, I saw a lot of female writers who were willing to imagine happier endings for us than we were willing to imagine for ourselves. And coming out of the AIDS epidemic, coming out of all that stuff. I'm not against a happily ever after romance story that's got a lot of tough stuff in it. I've written them. Sapphire Spring is one. We talked about it on this podcast, I guess. But the willingness to give yourself over to that happy ending, it takes courage. Romance takes courage. That's what I think people don't realize. It takes courage to write it because you're really putting your hopes and your dreams and your ambitions out there. Because ultimately the reason, and I've written stories in which plants come to life and parasites give you mind control abilities, but romance is always more suspenseful and exciting because this could happen. Someone could make a romantic choice in any given moment. They could think of someone else before themselves if they wanted to. Like, it's just. It's right there on the realm of possibility. As much as people say they're unrealistic or whatever. But I think that that's really where I came down on it in the end, is that I just think it's been so much better. And it has. Listen, I'm seeing. I follow a lot of adult entertainers in the queer male space, and they're doing heated rivalry stuff. You know, they're with the book. I saw one of them.
- [22:27]
A
You've got to.
- [22:28]
C
Yeah, and that's a change because before those two communities didn't mix, the adult entertainment community was very suspicious of romance. Yeah.
- [22:37]
A
I do think it's fascinating how this, again, sort of more than any of the other romance adjacent properties, has really celebrated the book.
- [22:47]
B
Yes.
- [22:48]
A
And I mean, Bridgerton, you know, obviously, is the other big one that we can sort of point to. And while certainly people know about the books, I think there are many, many, many who have no interest in sort of learning about the books, knowing who Julia Quinn is, any of that. And I wonder if we can just all talk about why we think that is. Like, why do we think the text has become so valuable to people? And is it because it's also a series or.
- [23:18]
B
I mean, I will tell you, I think that is the hard work that was done by the team at Crave and their social media when the show was airing. And still. That's fair. So there were so many, like, Instagram reels, not just Talk of Rachel, but, like, Instagram reel after Instagram reel, where they would essentially, like, show a scene from the show and then show the literal page, like the. As a page. And then you could see essentially that the dialogue straight from the book was what is. You are reading about in the. You know, in the. You know, the dialogue you could read is exactly what you were watching on the screen. And I think that they. The. They had, you know, reels where the actors are reading, holding the books. It was very clear that the. And again, I think that goes really back to the, like, the pride in, like, where it came from. They never backed away from where it came from. Jacob Tierney, in interview after interview, like, honors the fact that it's a romance and what that means. The actors have done the same thing. I mean, I've heard those actors who are, you know, 22, give more, like, kind of cogent. Yeah. Lovely young men, our sons give more, like, sort of cogent and, like, right on the money, defenses of romance and, like, why people enjoy it than people in our own community have. So, I mean, I think that I want to just say, like, I. And I think that's another reason it was really easy to love the show because not only did they not distance themselves in the making of it, but in the selling of it, they were like, yeah, look, this is where it comes from. We're gonna show you over and over and over again where it comes from.
- [25:03]
C
Yeah, the story. Eric Sharquin was the first one to tell me the story. I think he read it as the coverage of the show was moving from the Internet to the New York Times, right? And people really started to dig into what was the history, the development history of the show. Jacob Tierney shared that there was a moment where he was here in America working with a big streamer that he won't name. You can do some detective work, probably, and figure it out. And the notes came in of what it would need to be for them to give him a massive budget to do just a Peak TV show. You know, like these shows that have, like, $8 million. I don't know what budget they were offering him, but that level of show. And they were like, rose needs to be the main character of episode one. We need a lot of girls more.
- [25:51]
B
We need all their wives. We need it to be a big,
- [25:54]
C
you know, no sex until episode six.
- [25:57]
A
Oh, I didn't hear that.
- [25:58]
B
No kissing.
- [25:58]
A
It's crazy.
- [26:00]
B
It was like, no kissing. Yeah.
- [26:02]
C
Jacob Tierney made the best decision he could have made, which is he walked away having the courage to walk away, because when he went to Crave, they were like, okay, we're not going to have the money that you would have had there. But what we have are the fans of the book. When you option a book, what you are optioning is the fans of the book. And if you change the source material, you are pissing off the very thing that you spent money on. And so what they looked at was their investment. Right. And I wasn't in their heads, and I don't work at Crave, but it's like when they were. I had friends who worked on the later Twilight films, and they said, our marketing strategy is we don't really care about anyone who doesn't like Twilight. We're marketing to Twihearts. That's what we do.
- [26:51]
A
It makes sense.
- [26:52]
C
And I have had this conversation in Hollywood over years. I've been out here developing stuff since my 20s right now. And what they do is they want to buy it. And let's figure out how to take this thing that is beloved and get millions and millions and millions and millions of people to watch it. We need to make something for everyone. And the minute they make that decision, I said, it's like firing an arrow at the clouds, hoping to hit a target. And you're ignoring all these clamoring fans who love this thing, who, if you service them, will become the electrified cheerleaders for your product. Which is, I believe, what happened with Heated Rivalry. They started with what they had. They empowered it with something they loved, and it went out and spread the gospel to everybody.
- [27:39]
A
I mean, that is what Drew Absolutely what Drew so many people in was hearing the justice the loons start calling, and everybody wanted a piece of it.
- [27:52]
C
Everybody. Yeah.
- [27:54]
A
Especially now in this time where joy and delight is, you know, at a shortfall.
- [28:03]
B
Oh, yeah, I want to give. Like, this is something I heard Adrianna say on a podcast, and I'm not. I'll have to run down which one it was. I don't remember. But she was talking about heated rivalry and she made this in, like, really smart, Like, I think insightful comment where she said, you know, the thing is, is when you. Now, listen, I am not a person who feel like. Who feels that all adaptations have to be, like, as. As kind of exact as this one is to be good. I don't. I don't believe that. But in this case, what Adriana said, and I thought this was so smart, is she said, if you watch Heated Rivalry and then you go read the book, you are going to have essentially the same experience, right? Like, they. This is a complete. This is a very whatever the. Like, I want to use the word, like, fidelity. Like, right there. Like, the fidelity to the text is supreme. And she's like, that's not really what you're gonna. The experience you're gonna have if you're reading Bridgerton. Right. Like, the experience of watching the show has become very different than the experience of reading the book books. And so I thought that was just, like, a really good point. Like, that potentially, one of the reasons that we then saw the book be a juggernaut, right? Like, just chewing up the charts for weeks and weeks and weeks, is because then people are like, oh, I actually saw this show and I'm loving it. And now I'm reading this book and I'm having the same experience. And now I want to keep reading more books like this because I understand exactly what they're going to deliver. And I just thought that was also really, really about the popularity kind of. Right. It's really permeable. It allows fans to move from one to the other without any kind of friction. And that is not always true with a romance adaptation.
- [29:51]
C
No. And I think very often, because executives in Hollywood who aren't familiar with romance view it as an incomplete or deficient genre that they need to, quote, unquote, fix. I'm using air quotes, which I know nobody listening can see, but they need to fix it or they need to add to it. And a lot of times there is misogyny woven through that. I like to say, though, many great rom coms in Hollywood have been ruined by male executives making the hero into a jerk like they are. You know, it's just like, I watch it and I'm like, how is this guy sexy? I have a lot of women friends. They are not gonna be turned on by the fact that he's keeping half a pizza inside the coffee table like, it's not cute.
- [30:35]
A
Well, wait can be the time that I tell my win Harry Met Sally's story. Cause I feel like you knowing so much about Hollywood, you will be able to clarify something for me because I was in a room full of people who write things for screens. And I mentioned When Harry Met Sally as a beat for. As a storytelling beat for something. And the response that I got was, well, when Harry Met Sally is really Harry story. It's not a story about Sally. And I, you know, clutched my non existent pearls.
- [31:11]
B
You're like, what?
- [31:12]
A
And I was like, surely I've misunderstood what you just said. That cannot be true. Nora Ephron would never.
- [31:20]
C
No.
- [31:21]
A
And the response that I got was, well, obviously it is, because Harry is the first person on screen.
- [31:28]
C
That's nonsense. The first person on screen in Jaws is Chrissy Watkins, and she lives five
- [31:37]
A
minutes is her movie.
- [31:40]
C
It's not her movie. Then, is it the Sharks movie, maybe that you may. No, that's just not. You know, there was a story, and I don't remember who it was, but there was a famous screenwriting coach named Syd Field who had a. Who published a book about how to write a screenplay. Everybody knew it was.
- [31:54]
B
Everybody owns it.
- [31:56]
C
He was giving somebody big talk and he recognized a former student in the audience who is now a filmmaker. And I don't remember who the filmmaker was. And he called him up on stage thinking, you know, I knew this kid went and I mentored him. And what do you have to say to the audience? And the filmmaker said, don't do anything this guy's telling you to do. Go out there. Because executives are so sick of reading scripts that follow every beat of this guy's formula. You know, like there are some fundamentals of storytelling and all that sort of stuff, but that's not one of the them. The first person on this is Scream, Drew Barrymore's movie. Like, come on.
- [32:29]
A
But I also think, like, this speaks to this issue. Like you said, like, a lot of many, many, many romantic things in Hollywood have been ruined by not being fine and point on it. But a man in the room.
- [32:40]
B
Right? So.
- [32:42]
A
And I think this is part of it. This sort of insta. This embedded patriarchy and misogyny in text. And I mean, the other thing that I would say about heated rivalry is how it is so inclusive of a broad anti misogynistic view. There is a sort of matriarchy that runs through this show.
- [33:10]
C
Yes, yes. And I saw somebody, and forgive me for not being able to quote, I think it was an opinion editorial or it was somebody in the New York Times quoting their female friend saying this. This is a story in which the women are not presented as obstacles to queer desire. Right. They're not in the way. Rose is not in the way. Rose sees him and recognizes him and realizes she is not interested in sex that bad. And so she has this lovely. She creates this safe space for him to sort of talk about. I mean, that scene is. That's such an abused term, creating a safe space. But that scene is a masterclass in that she sees it, she recognizes it, she allows. So the women sort of advance them on their journey and they don't get in the way, and they don't. It's really beautiful in that regard because, I mean, there are a lot of MM novels out there where you. It opens with a marriage ending and it's gnarly, you know, but it has truth to it because, like, you know, there are. Anyway. So I think that's definitely part of it. But I think the problem in Hollywood is that they will often pursue the lowest form of conflict. And the sexist assumption with romantic stories is that the man will always be the most retarded, resistant to the emotions, and the woman will just show up and be ready. And so they go with that formula very often. And then they have the 11th hour breakup be about the third act breakup be about a surprise moment of reservation on behalf of the woman. And so, yeah, it gets very formulaic. But I think it is impossible for people to maybe understand how many of these major creative decisions in this industry have been made by men for years and years and years. But that is shifting. That is shifting. But I think the thing that's an open question is because heated rivalry was made in the way that it was. Canadian production company, shoestring budget, a passionate people. Is Hollywood gonna sit up and take notice of that? Of how faithful they were? Or are they going to say, you know what? We make shows in our way. And that was a crave show, and they made it in their way. There's no way. Because people who don't want to adapt and change, they will just opt out. They'll say, that's not the type of show we could make. I don't necessarily think that's true because I'm hearing about stuff being optioned, and there's been a lot of exciting conversations around me about it. But at the same time, these studios get entrenched and they're dealing with so many other pressures right now. We're coming out of this period. I called it the streaming gold rush. Other people called it peak tv, where all the streamers cared about was subscriber counts. So it didn't matter how many people watched each individual show. And then people like to talk about the strikes that we had here. And they were definitely a major factor. But what happened before that is that Netflix stock got devalued, which was a process that involved Wall street interacting with Hollywood in a way I don't fully understand. But somebody powerful in the financial industry said, we don't think this model can sustain at this level of constant deficit finance production. And so suddenly the town went From let's spend $10 million on a show. I'm blanking on the name, but I quite liked it about a non binary guy who goes to work at a fashion house. And. And it'll look like a million bucks because we're spending 10 times more than that and it doesn't matter. And then all of that contracted and a lot of the diversity, the diverse shows got cut. And it was devastating for a lot of friends of mine who were working in the industry. Projects got the calls came in. Make the gay character straight, make the trans character cis. All this sort of stuff started to happen. And then heated rivalry comes along. So it is really a complicated and open question about how Hollywood is gonna respond.
- [37:02]
A
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Romantasy Letters, Breathtaking romantic fantasy by mail.
- [37:10]
B
So this is a really fun, original approach to storytelling because instead of just like picking up your Kindle, you get all of the magic of actually holding the story in your hands. So in the Romantasy Letters, you subscribe and get two mailings a month that tell the story of a treaty of hearts. This is a realm where kingdoms clash and magic bends loyalty. And two sworn enemies must strike a bargain in order to essentially save their people. And in each of your letters you'll get a part of the story and the whole like sort of story unfolds over a whole year. So 24 different letters that eventually tell you the whole story. This is a really cool way to support local artists. They promise and pledge to never use AI in any of their production. And it's just like a really, really fun way to put the magic back in your mailbox.
- [38:07]
A
We are also subscribers here at our house. I'm reading it with my 12 year old and so far it's really fun and it comes with letters and maps and really cool immersive experience things. So if you would like to learn more about Romantasy letters or subscribe, you can do that@romantasyletters.com and use the code Fated Mates for 20% off your subscription again, that's RomantasyLetters.com and 20 use the code code Fated Mates for 20 percent off your subscription. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now and be taken to romantasyletters.com to take a look. Thanks to Romantasy Letters for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [38:49]
B
I think for me, as someone who actually doesn't watch a lot, I find it all very like. I'm like, I don't need to see a 700th Marvel movie or whatever, right? I mean, I feel like, you know, one of a really interesting question we were having was, and maybe I've said this already on the podcast, like, when's the last time you saw two nobodies, right? Like Connor and Hudson come out of nowhere and like hit, like, hit like this. And I can't remember who it was that like the first. It was not me that said this. It was somebody who said it to me, said Goodwill hunting, said it was Ben Affleck. And I was like, that's a good answer. It is a great answer. And I was like, that was 30 years ago.
- [39:32]
C
And let me tell you something, if those two had made out and that
- [39:35]
A
movie, oh my God, 18 year old
- [39:37]
C
me would have slid off the chair. I mean, I would have loved you're
- [39:42]
B
like still in space. No, but I was like, but that was a long time ago, right? That was a long time ago to have to be able to name like, okay, a show that like everybody all of a sudden was everywhere all at once. People were talking about it. It was two, like two young guys nobody had ever seen before. And then they have been now Hollywood legends, right? They wrote it. So I thought that was actually really interesting, right? Like, we joke about Nepo babies, but like, I don't. I do think that there is something, you know, there's. Everything is so sluggish, right? And then you get, you know when you get somebody with like a real artistic vision and a sense of like, themselves, like Brian Coogler also writing Sinners and everybody was talking about Sinners last year. It was this fantastic movie and it's because it felt like it was somehow outside of the. Like, if Sinners had been made by the people who made 700 Marvel movies, right? Like, we can all imagine exactly what that would have looked like, right?
- [40:45]
C
Yeah. And I think the thing about Sinners is it also made bank, which is amazing. I mean, because sometimes things are talked about in certain spheres. And that was always gonna be my fear with heated rivalry is everybody's talking about it, but it's just us. And it just feels. No, it broke containment, as Sarah said. That was the first time I heard that phrase. I loved it, but yeah. And I think that Sinners did the same thing. Sinners had a incredible opening box office weekend. And because those performances for projects like that, they poke holes in the conventional wisdom of the town, which is that it was turning into. Right. The reason we have 900 Marvel movies is because the studios were starting to say we can't get anybody to show up in the theater for anything original. And that turned into, how are you marketing original things? And are you able to market to anyone over 30 years old? That's the problem? Or is all your marketing on media because it's easy for you and it's just. You think you can click it and recycle it and all that sort of stuff. So it was this sort of. Everything was at loggerheads. And I think that that question is still really kind of dark, or the potential answers are dark for theatrical releases, but for tv, things are still kind of more energetic and promising. And I think, you know, it is William Goldman, who was a very famous screenwriter, but also wrote maybe the best no Bullshit guide to working in the industry, albeit in the late and 80s, said there's only one phrase that's true of Hollywood. Nobody knows anything. Period. Nobody knows anything. We're sitting here like, oh, my God, this thing came out of nowhere. But I do think I will make a stand on that position of the evidence is there that if you embrace and service an existing fan base of a book, you can make something powerful. But I think think you don't need to make it for $200 million. That's where things were getting really tricky in Hollywood, is we have to justify this risky investment. And it's like, no, you don't. You have to make something that's for the people who are ready to embrace it with open arms.
- [42:53]
B
Well, what we want to do is recommend some.
- [42:56]
A
So you loved heated rivalry, right?
- [42:58]
B
Like, we want to reckon some. Recommend some romances to you. Because heated rivalry, you can't just wait around every for season two to drop. And you cannot just read Rachel's books over and over again. I mean, you can, you can, but you don't have to live like that. Romance provides. So I don't think we are. We're pros here. This is not just gonna be a million gay hockey romances, although there are plenty. We're really gonna be like, so you like this? We're gonna like this. We had a whole conversation like, so you like tuna melts. But I was like, I don't know that there's another romance tuna melts out there.
- [43:31]
A
You know, I spent hours today thinking about tuna melts. I was like, come up with one.
- [43:36]
C
I need to you open the door, Jen. I need to interject on our. On Dinner Partners, my podcast with Eric Shaquin, we did a heated rivalry episode. And you can find it@dinnerpartners.com we will
- [43:46]
B
link to it in show notes.
- [43:47]
C
Everyone, I need to say this. Eric loves the show. Loves the show, loves the show.
- [43:52]
A
Oh, no.
- [43:52]
C
But he loves tuna. Me the point. If you made a tuna melt the way that. That Ilia makes that tuna melt, it would be ashes and cinders by the time you open the oven.
- [44:04]
B
Be on fire and re.
- [44:06]
A
With smell of canned tuna.
- [44:08]
C
20 minutes. And anyway, so we did a whole thing because, like, he reads recipes. We had theme music for it. I'm just. I know. I'm plugging our podcast. No, you should.
- [44:17]
B
That's why you're here too.
- [44:19]
C
But, yeah.
- [44:20]
A
Okay, well, so let us know about your favorite tuna melt, you know, situation. But I will say I could not find another tuna melt in my head. I was like, surely I can come up with one. And I. I couldn't.
- [44:33]
C
Unconventional snacking, maybe. Like, that could be a thread.
- [44:37]
B
So you love a sandwich everyone. And then I love threesome.
- [44:40]
A
A food romance, though.
- [44:41]
C
So we should. Here's a highland romance where they have haggis. So romantic.
- [44:47]
B
Philadelphia. Eating scrapple. Yeah, Same energy.
- [44:50]
A
Okay.
- [44:50]
C
Absolutely. Okay, wait. But if you go to Philadelphia. I'm sorry, you keep triggering me. It's food. I'm being the Amish Hand rolled donuts, which were at the Reading Mall, I think. Is that the thing in downtown?
- [45:01]
B
Yeah, the Reading. Reading Market. Right, Read.
- [45:04]
C
Yeah, the writing wall.
- [45:05]
B
Whatever it's called. Yeah.
- [45:05]
C
The Amish hand rolled donuts. Like, I was. There was who I was before those donuts, and there was who I was. I still think about those donuts. I highly recommend them.
- [45:14]
A
Write a crossover. That's a different romance novel. The Amish one, though.
- [45:17]
C
Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's a forbidden rumspringer.
- [45:20]
A
Anyway.
- [45:20]
C
Okay.
- [45:23]
B
All right. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. Romance. Very serious. We're very serious people.
- [45:28]
A
Sorry.
- [45:29]
B
All right.
- [45:29]
A
I'm sorry.
- [45:29]
C
To talk about.
- [45:30]
B
Don't be sorry. No, don't ever be sorry. We love it.
- [45:32]
A
Lay it on us. What's your first pick?
- [45:36]
C
I looked to the sort of. Well, as heated rivalry was happening, as the show was happening, I saw a lot of the kind of bookish voices online that I love and trust started talking about another hockey MM romance called Game Misconduct by Arie Baron, which was also a Karina title. And it was like they were saying, you know that gif that sometimes people use where it's the wall and then you see like, like three. I think it's three girls lean their heads out from the side of the wall like they've heard an exciting sound. That's me. When you say age gap, size difference, enemies to lovers, it's like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
- [46:22]
B
My head goes over the wall.
- [46:25]
C
This is a great sort of shift. I don't call it a lateral shift. If you love teated rivalry and you want something that's maybe a little bit more gritty. Gritty. This is absolutely a romance. But there's some tough stuff in this one. They are dealing with chronic pain. They're dealing with how to manage pain with painkillers. They're the trigger warnings for this one. Are long, but they are. This is about a 35 year old kind of end of his career hockey player. And I don't know what position he plays, so don't ask me. I didn't learn that much about hockey. I was too busy loving the energy between them because they are fighting on the ice. That is how they meet. They are famous for just beating the crap out of each other on the ice and they love beating the crap out of each other on the ice. And so then one night there, Mike, who is this sort of younger, scrappier one who's at the beginning of his career and has unrealized potential that the older one wants him to lean into. But when they're in the sort of early enemies period, Mike's out drinking and he runs into this guy and he's the last one he wants to see and they get into a drunken brawl in an alleyway and Mike says to him, we can curse on fated mates, right?
- [47:38]
A
Oh, yes, we encourage it.
- [47:41]
C
Okay. He's like, why don't you suck my dick? So he does. That is why there's mm romance. That is why there's mm romance. So like heated rivalry, it covers. Covers a pretty. I don't think it covers as much time as heated rivalry does, but I think it covers at least a year or two. Heated rivalry is a saga in terms of the calendar, which is a thing I really like about it. But it's got that thing, it's got more hockey in it. So if you're a hockey fan, it has more hockey. I'm going to say than the show did. And it deals with a lot of interesting questions and it deals. The thing that was really electric about it for me, me. And it was one of my first experiences of listening on audio. I'm usually not an audio consumer for fiction. I like to read, but I went back and forth and it is. It takes, I think, a really skilled romance writer to write about love and desire blossoming between two believably inarticulate people. Like these are two believe these men do not necessarily have the words, but they're looking for them. And that was sort of how Mike and Danny played for me. And so they would have these eruptions of passion, these eruptions of violence. And it's got that heated rivalry energy of I don't really want to be falling in love with you, which I think is something that's really intoxicating. I think a lot of times we fall for people that we really kind of don't want to fall for. And I think that's particularly heightened in the MM world where you have a lot of sort of bi awakening stories. This isn't really a bi awakening story. These are guys who are kind of secure in their. One is bi, but he's sort of aware of that.
- [49:19]
B
He's awakened already.
- [49:21]
C
And it has, you know, and the last point I'll make about it is it's got, you know, I think age gap really works when the older partner is using their wisdom and experience to the actual benefit of the other partner partner not to manipulate and exploit them, which is when age gap is evil and toxic. There's really a sense of he wants to. He wants Mike not to make the mistakes that he did in the sport. And. And, you know, it's really watching the little sort of brawler Mike go from this sort of scrappy, I want to fight you to this sort of melting puddle, that melting of the toxically masculine shell. I just, I think it hits a lot of the heated rivalry buttons.
- [50:01]
B
Yeah, that whole. I would. I was going to just. I want to jump on and say one of my favorites in that series is called Home Ice Advantage, which I think is book number three. And in that book, you have actually, it's. It's a very different. Which is like you have two older, right. Two older guys, they are both retired from hockey. And one, they essentially end up coaching on the same. For the same NHL team. And one guy, Ryan, is essentially like, just divorced or just divorcing from his wife. And basically, like, it is a gay awakening story. He has like, no idea that he is gay. He is. Been with. I think her name's Shannon, since he was, you know, 18 or something. And so, you know, it's.
- [50:46]
A
He.
- [50:47]
B
And then all of a sudden he's in Boston and he. And essentially, I mean, it's hot. Like, Eric is one of the. His. So Ryan ends up being the head coach. And, you know, it's sort of a contested job. Like, they pulled him. Literally. He'd been like, coaching, like, Little League, peewee hockey or whatever. And, you know, Eric is one of the, like, sort of, you know, assistant coaches.
- [51:08]
A
And he's, like, pissed.
- [51:09]
B
He's like, why wasn't it me? Why didn't I get picked? Why this guy inst. And they end up, like, essentially, like, in, like, Ryan's office, like, making out. And Ryan is like, what is actually happening and why am I so into it? Like, he really has no idea. And so. But, you know, like you said, I think one of the other things that's sort of if you're. If you needed more hockey than he did. Rivalry. There's a tremendous amount of hockey in these books. Like, these are books that are really rooted in the hockey world in, like, a very deep way. And they're. These men are players or ex players or coaches. And so they have like a. And, you know, as older guys, like, they have a different relationship with it. So this, I agree, is a great series. There's only been three books by this author by. By Ari Baran. And I. I'm sure a lot of people hope there's more. It is terrific.
- [52:05]
A
Is it a recent series?
- [52:08]
B
2024 is the third one. Totally reasonable for there to be. Yeah, we hope. We hope. Yeah.
- [52:16]
A
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Jane Ann Krentz, author of the Shop on Hidden Lane.
- [52:22]
B
So we have. In classic romance fashion, we have two warring families, the Harper and the Wells family. And in classic J. And Ann Kritz fashion, these are families steeped with psychic abilities. So the problem is, is they. Neither one of them likes how the other one, like, sort of goes about their business. So. Right. The Harpers are essentially selling their psychic talents just to any. Anybody on the street. Whereas, you know, the Wells are like the big CEOs, but, you know, like, they're basically big psychic. And the. And what happens is, so, like, these families just don't get along, even though they're in the same small world together. But when Sophie Harper and Luke Wells are called to, like, a remote mountain cabin by their relatives, her aunt and his uncle, and they Basically figure out that these two have been sleeping together. They're both shocked but also worried because the. Their, their relative are missing. Right. And so the question is, is why, like, what happened to her aunt and his uncle? Why have they been sleeping together and for how long? That has to definitely be unpacked. But also there is the psychic signs indicate that of a great violent murder has happened here. So Sophie and Luke and his really psychic dog himself, Bruce, a great romance dog, end up essentially going out to like following the trail and ending up in a strange art colony out in like the desert of Arizona. And they have to figure out like what is going on there. So they're sort of undercover trying to like follow the clues, trying to find their lost relatives, and also trying to resist falling in love.
- [54:03]
A
If you love the idea of Jane and Krentz's sexy supernaturally psychic y books, then you are going to absolutely love the shop on Hidden Words Lane. You can get it right now in print, ebook or audiobook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Jane and Krentz for literally everything you've ever done and also for sponsoring this week's episode. I am also going to talk about winter sport because I love winter sports. But I was thinking about, okay, hey, we don't want too much of the actual sports. We want more of the bodies just doing body things. And I mean, we've talked about this whole series like at some point on the podcast. But I have to talk about Tamsen Parker because the Snow and ice Games series, which is five books, is all. So she couldn't use Olympics because of, you know, trademarking. But essentially she's come up with, you know, the snow and ice games. They happen every four years and it's all the different, you know, winter sports. And these are, all of them are like short, delicious bites of pure erotic romance. So you are going to see people with magnificent bodies doing magnificent things with those bodies in these books.
- [55:37]
B
Lovely.
- [55:39]
A
It's terrific. So there are. I like, I literally today had a lovely day because I actually read the beginnings of all of these books again to decide which one I wanted to talk about. But I'm going to cheat and talk about one that I almost recommended and then the one that I am going to recommend. And the first one is book two in the series which is called Seduction on the Slopes because everyone who listens to the podcast knows that I really love a team where there's like a wizened grumpy, retiring sport guy and a young whippersnapper upstart. And I especially like them in this book because they're gonna bone.
- [56:22]
B
So
- [56:24]
A
the premise here is like, they're both on the slalom team. They're both down, like, the greatest downhill skiers in American history. And one of them is called Crash, because, of course he is. So there's Miles, and he's older, and he's been skiing, slalom in the snow and ice games for, you know, years. And he's. And he. And then there is Crash, who is young and is like the greatest downhill, arguably going to be the greatest downhill skier ever, if only he can beat Miles, who is like the veteran, you know, guy. And they are. They hate each other. They hate each other for all the reasons they hate each other.
- [57:12]
C
Excellent. Yes.
- [57:13]
A
But like, Crash had Miles poster on his wall when he was throwing up. And then also, they cannot keep their hands off each other. So this is gonna give you this kind of like, so now that's not gonna. It's gonna have the heated rivalry sexiness for you, but it's not gonna deliver the long term yearning that you. You want. Which is why my actual pick is number four in the series, which is Fire on the Ice, which book is so hot.
- [57:41]
B
Everyone. It's so hot.
- [57:43]
A
It's so hot. The heroine's here. It's ff. It is a Canadian, the, like, prim, proper darling of the Canadian women's figure skating team named Maisie and Blaze, an American short track speed skater who is, like, in the text, like, built like a roller derby heroine. And they are so hot for each other. And what this is gonna. The itch this is gonna scratch from heated rivalry. Aside from just like, again, like, there's this moment in this book where Tamsin writes I. That Blaze understands. So. No, that's not where I'm gonna start. I'm gonna get to that. So this book begins. It's these two. We are told, like, almost immediately that four years ago at the Olympics or at the snow and ice Games, these two hooked up. They both lost. They didn't have. They didn't meddle and like, to drown their sorrows. They drowned themselves in each other. Right?
- [58:49]
B
And.
- [58:49]
A
And for four years they have just been thinking about each other and, like, each one of them has had, like, you know, Blaze sort of thinks to herself, like, there were, I mean, countless times she opened her phone to, like, send that text and never did. And then the Olympics are happening again. They're in, they're together, they're I think they're in Denver and, like, Maisie is in a bar where everybody's drinking water, but, like, all the Olympic. All the Olympians are together. And Blaze walks in and, like, she just turns and there is this woman she has been, like, dreaming of for four years. And their eyes lock across this bar. But, like, Blaze immediately, to just sort of diffuse the tension of the situation, like, immediately just, like, begins greeting other people who she knows. And, like, they're just touch.
- [59:40]
B
They're.
- [59:40]
A
She's very physical. She's, like, touching other people. She's, like, kissing them on the. She's kissing them on the cheek. She's, like, stroking their arms. And Maisie is clocking every. Every single movement. And it's like. It's like that scene in Heat of Rivalry where, like, they see each other in the club. Right?
- [59:58]
C
Right. Okay. I probably couldn't sing that. I can't sing too much of the song because you have to get licensing.
- [60:03]
B
I love the scene so much.
- [60:05]
C
Yeah. Acts in the air about that song, but go on.
- [60:08]
A
Yes.
- [60:08]
B
No.
- [60:09]
A
And then it's so sexy, and it's so humid, and Maisie is watching her, and she thinks to herself. And this is the line I was starting with, but now I'm back to it. She thinks to herself, like, she's what? She's not jealous. She's just, like, amazed because Blaze knows how to use her body to get what she wants. Right. Like, she. She's an athlete. She's a superior athlete. She knows all the ways her body can move and impact and shift on ice and shift in the world and shift the way people think about her. And she's just, like, watching her body and thinking about sitting on her face, of course.
- [60:49]
C
As one does.
- [60:50]
B
Sure.
- [60:52]
A
And then they, like. They ultimately get back to the room, they sort of tumble together into just one of the sexiest scenes, I think, in erotic romance. It's just so hot. And it does all the things that Jen loves about sports romance, which is, like, two people using their bodies in these lights.
- [61:11]
C
Yeah.
- [61:11]
B
Like, these people. Their bodies do amazing things, which is the thing. I'm doing amazing things together. Right.
- [61:16]
A
Over and over. Over in heated rivalry. Like, all the ways that these two, like, perfect bodies do remarkable things.
- [61:25]
C
It's like the stories you hear about the Olympic Village. Right. They have to make the best running out of pocket. Because they'll just fuck. They're like, we're gorgeous. We're just. We're never gonna leave. We're just gonna fuck.
- [61:34]
B
Yeah.
- [61:35]
A
We're here for three weeks. We Don't.
- [61:36]
B
I've run my race. That 23 seconds of my life is over. Now what will I do?
- [61:41]
A
And I sent Jen a text, an article this. This Olympics because the Italians ran out of condoms. And I thought, that seems like it's a. It's a failure of planning. Like, I think there's more.
- [61:53]
B
It's cold out there.
- [61:56]
C
The other thing, though, just you hit on with that scene that I wanted to point out is that is such a. An electrified queer thing, because as young queer people, we tell ourselves, I'm not into them. I just am jealous of them. I'm just jealous of how gorgeous. And that scene of her commenting on how she can use her body and deepening that into. When it crosses over with actual desire. Recognized desire can be really fun on Paige. Anyway, sorry. Go on, Jen.
- [62:24]
A
No, it's great.
- [62:24]
B
I was gonna say one of the things I think is actually still to this day pretty remarkable about this book is that they have what I would consider, like, a truly interesting hea, which is that Blaze is essentially, like, polyamorous and Maisie is not. And they essentially agree that Maisie is going to be monogamous with Blaze because that's what's important to her, but does not expect Blaze to do that. And so the book ends with, like, Blaze coming back from, like, being at a thing and Maisie, like, kind of being aware and knowing that that means Blaze could have been with other. Other lovers. And that is not a big deal for them. Like, that's their HEA. And this was, what, 2018 or 2019.
- [63:01]
A
It was a long time ago.
- [63:02]
B
And still to this day, and I.
- [63:05]
A
And I did.
- [63:05]
B
I feel like it really honored, like, not especially again, like, in. You know, in queer relationships, like, do not look like. Like the HEA of, like a sort of the patriarchy. Right. Of, like, you know, now we're together forever, just the two of us. And I. So I just think that's a remarkable book in a lot of ways. Yeah, I love it.
- [63:24]
C
How many books are there in that series?
- [63:26]
A
5. And they're all different permutations, so it's like MF, FF mm. And all different sexualities as well. Represent.
- [63:37]
C
I love it.
- [63:37]
B
Yeah. Great. That's great.
- [63:39]
A
Click.
- [63:40]
B
All right, it's your turn again, Chris.
- [63:42]
C
Oh, it is. Okay. So I am going to, like. I'm calling my recommendations a stepladder of a sort, in tone. Like, they go from that delicious fighting on the ice, blowing his enemy in an alleyway to. I don't. I use the term literary sparingly. But I think I'll make a point about why this book has, I think, a specific kind of attribute to it that makes it a special romance novel. But it's Unwritten Rules by Katie Casey, which was another book where I was like, this is about baseball, and I'm sorry, I think baseball is boring. The games take nine hours. I had an experience and I just. I'm just going to go off on a little tangent here where I dated a guy who had been in a frat many years ago. I dated this guy. We were serious. We were together, and he was like, we're going to go to a Dodgers game with my fraternity brothers. Now, if you told little gay crip, closeted Christopher, someday you'll be going to Dodger Stadium with a fraternity and your boyfriend, I would have had the glossy gay porn fantasy version of that in my head and said, I'm there with these dirty, unshowered, drunken hooligans who are throwing peanuts in my hair anyway. So it was like, I don't have a lot of erotic charges around baseball, but this book is so beautifully written. And I think one of the things about it that is so. It is one of the few romance novels I've read that is propelled by a single character's third person. I'm going to say interiority, even though that's not a word. We're in the. Really.
- [65:08]
B
The point of Zach, interiority is a word.
- [65:11]
C
Interiority. Okay. It's a word. I make up words sometimes. But Zack is really the main character. He's an older baseball player on this team. And the structure of the book is flash forwards, flash backwards. He's being reunited with. I think it's Emilio or Eugenio. Excuse me, Eugenio. Who he had. There's a bit of an age gap between them, but it's not that pronounced. And they had a thing. And it was really Zach who pulled back. It's one of those where the older one is not the sort of master of the universe who makes it happen, but the one who has kind of deeper scars and more resistance. And Eugenio was sort of ready to do something big in public and Zach wasn't. And it made me feel seen as sort of like an older gay who has more, as we talked about earlier, kind of hang ups in this area. I still struggle with PDA with male partners, and I live in West Hollywood, which is like super gay, but it was a great dynamic there. But the layering in of the baseball details was so perfect. Perfect and well done. Katie Casey's prose Is so solid and good and so atmospheric. And part of the challenge, I think, of writing sports romance is can you take some of the realities of the game and turn them into plot points? And really not the game itself, but the industry, the business of the game and man. And I believe Casey is a former sports journalist, so they really know what they're doing in this regard. And I've read later books in the series where the whole trading process is played for maximum suspense. Is it gonna separate the partners? But this book just really caught me off guard. And when they do, it's a slow burn. So you're not gonna get the instant eroticism of heated rivalry, but you are gonna get that sense of if it's not the men, these extraordinary athletes using their bodies for every sort of erratic possibility that they have. It is about how do you let go and love and surrender when you are day to day trying to be the toughest physically that you can be. And baseball isn't the most aggressive sort of tackle sport, but you're either in or you're out or you're popular. And there's a real engagement with how you're talked about in the media and how that impacted and they're worried about how they're perceived. All that stuff that is in heated rivalry, particularly towards the end of heated rivalry, like what is this decision going to cost us? Is layered into this book really beautifully. Well, I highly recommend recommend it. Unwritten Rules by Katie Casey.
- [67:44]
B
All right, so my next book is 8 seconds to ride by Ashley James. And this is a. I don't know, I guess it's a cowboy romance, whatever. It's the rodeo and we have two men who are both. Okay, listen everybody. I don't know. None of this means anything to me, bronc writers. And as far as I'm concerned, that's like where you hold on for eight seconds based on the title and other parts of the book. Right? So anyway, the beginning. And I also, I'm gonna admit this book to me is very much in the heated rivalry blueprint. But like make it cowboys with like a really big difference. That changes, I think the reading experience, which is heated rivalry, is written in third. This book is written in first. And I think it's really interesting because we have these two. Okay, so they're two young guys, right? Like shooter is 24 and then Sterling is like 21 or 22. And shooter is like a three time world champion, Las Vegas champion, whatever of this particular event in the rodeo. And the book opens with him just having won like, for the third time, right? So he just really dominates, like, this particular event in rodeo. And so he and his, like, buddies are out, like, celebrating, and he, like, catches the eye of this, like, young guy in the bar and is basically like, you want to help me celebrate? And it's really interesting because. Because, like, again, this is like. I think in this case, it's like, it's well written. Like, it's very clear to us that this guy, he takes into the back, you know, the bathroom with him is into. Is into Shooter, but maybe does not have a lot of experience, right? And so, shoot. Shooter is basically like. They kiss and, you know, they lock the bathroom door behind them, and Shooter is basically like, get on your knees. This dick isn't gonna suck itself. Which is a pretty hot thing to say, I think we can all agree. And so they, like, right? But then it's, like, clear from his narration, and you're kind of like, are you just, like, not really paying attention to the fact that, like, this guy you're with is into it, but doesn't really quite seem to know what he's doing? So anyway, he, like, he gets off. He, you know, he tells this other guy, like, you know, like, take out your dick. I want to see you, like, you know, jerking off while you get me off. It's really sexy. And they then, like, that's it. They part ways. And then four or five months pass, and then it turns out that Sterling has moved to the same Wyoming town where Shooter lives because he is gonna be on the same rodeo circuit and riding in the same event. Okay, now here's the thing that's, like, really interesting. Like, we learned that, in fact, Sterling is, like, essentially a virgin. Has not been with, like, men before. This was, like, his sort of first experience with a man. And, you know, he. He knew who. He knew who Shooter was because, you know, Shooter's famous in the world. They, you know, this is like the same event, and so they kind of meet up. And the thing. The thing that's really interesting, I would say to me, in reading this kind of similar story, right? Like, where they're about the same age, but Ilya is far more, like, sort of aware and comfortable with himself and his sexuality and. Right. Than Shane is. So it has, like, sort of those similar vibes, which is why. Why I picked it. But Shooter is also really cocky, right? Really thinks he is, like, the best thing ever in rodeo, that no one will ever be as good as him. And of course, as the book goes on, right? Like, Sterling is Going to really give him a run for his money. But it was like, really interesting to sort of read that, like, experience in, like, when you're really in the mindset of someone who is like, because I am the best at this, I don't have to write really pay that much attention maybe to other people, you know, because I am comfortable with my sexuality and I've been with other men. I don't have to really, like, take too much care with Sterling and eventually, like, we see him break down and like, kind of figure out what that's all about. But it. It's like, it. To me, it was a very, like. It really was a challenging, like, reading experience in that way because you're really like. I don't think Ashley James, that's the author, was really pulled her punches in terms of like, making Shooter a real asshole. Right? And so you know that. And so I think that that part of it made for like, it's like a very similar plot in some ways in terms of, like, their relationship and, you know, kind of how that evolves. But because you're really in that first person point of view, it's a lot harder, I think, to feel that there's like, parity between them. It just is a very different kind of reading experience. But I did really enjoy. So that's called Eight Seconds to Ride.
- [72:43]
A
I love that. That's a rodeo romance. There aren't that many of those, I feel.
- [72:48]
C
Elsie Chase wrote a really good series a few years ago, Pick Up Men, I think it's called. Or that's the name of the first book. But yeah, gay rodeos are a thing. I've never been. I would probably never leave if I went. As I said, I have a cowboy thing, but yeah, they're a thing.
- [73:07]
A
I now have changed one of my books to Cat Geraldo's Wild Pitch because I want to talk about. Chris said again that he liked an age gap. And also he brought up baseball and then something else that you were talking about when you're talking about your baseball book. I was like, oh, wild Pitch. I do like a baseball game, but I also don't really care about watching baseball. I like to go to one and watch it. So this book is. It's too. So it's lots of kink. There's a lot going on in this book. And also I think it really speaks to what you. If you loved the kind of the responsibility that Shane feels about his place in hockey as the first. As the first Asian hockey player, as the, you know, his work to Sort of protect his own own. His own identity and his own legacy in the league. I think this will be really interesting for you. The premise here is the heroine is the first woman in the major leagues of baseball and Ciara. And she is, I mean, like, she's been fighting her whole life to be. Be the first woman in the major leagues. And her. And again, she. It's her rookie season. She's sort of. She has been asked to pitch at the. We meet her at the All Star Game where she is a pitcher. She is a pitcher and it's very clear she knows it and kind of everyone else knows that. She got up to the rookie season and she got the yips like she's so consumed with being the first that she is. She has not been playing a great season of baseball and she. But she has still been asked to pitch at the All Star Game and part of the reason why is because she is a first, right? Like she is a spectacle in her own way. The. The captain of the All Star team is Matteo Reyes, who is again, I have a kink which is old, aging, achy sports guys. And Mateo is about to retire. This is his last, likely his last season. But he's there, he is a catcher and he sort of is the only person who can really see that she is really struggling. She does not pitch well in this game. It's a whole thing. He kind of plays. Plays protector in some way to her and she hates it. She's furious that he's sort of given her special treatment in some way. But they are very hot for each other. She also had Mateo's poster on her walls when she was growing up. And what we discovered pretty quickly is that this is a romance where there is. He is an alpha submissive, she is femdom, they are both bi. And there is a lot of really like rich kink inside written into this book. About a third of the way through, she gets traded from her team to his and she becomes kind of a backbench pitcher for him, this kind of fantastic catcher. And he's also captain of his. So there is a lot of reason for him to be around her, for them to be together, for him to be coaching her, for him to be like, helping her get over her concerns about failure, her fear of failure. And also they are doing it all the time and it is very, very sexy. If you are interested in this kind of dominant submissive kink, this book will do that for you. It is very erotic. There are some really, really great sex scenes in here. But also, it's really. It feels really weighty. This book. It feels like a book where, you know, people are struggling with their. With, you know, how to be public and themselves in public, how to represent themselves in public, how to ride this, like the, you know, really important kind of big, scary line of representation in sport. I loved this book a lot. So that's Kat Giraldo's wild pitch.
- [77:49]
C
Okay. So I'm also changing my mind, but I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do a brief honorable mention and then I'll do my third one. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how I could make the case that one of my favorite MM, romance novels of maybe my entire entire life was in a heated rivalry succession of some case. And I can't really, other than We Could Be so Good by Kat Sebastian, is one of the best romance novels I have ever read. Another baseball ever? No, that's the other one. That's the part of the duels. I think that's. You should be so lucky. So I haven't read. You should be so Lucky. I'm saving it up. But we could be so good as the same newspaper, I believe. And I'm not going to go into too much detail because I can't make the case that it's just like heated rivalry other than being amazing and male. Male. The one I really want to talk about was this book I read many years ago. I had to refresh my memory. I was like, I very rarely review on Goodreads and when I do, it's only a five star review. I say, if you want to find out what I didn't like, get me a loan and buy me a donut.
- [78:52]
A
But an Amish one, please.
- [78:55]
C
But this was a total right Amish. Hand rolled. Hand rolled. That could be a romance.
- [79:01]
B
I was like, that sounds kind of dirty, but fine.
- [79:04]
C
And occasionally I'm at Indies Invade Philly and the donut place is right across the street. And so it all works out. This is a book called after the Crash by Emma Alcott. And I think the reason it fits into the conversation today is because it was some of the best sex that I, as a cisgendered queer man ever read in an MM romance. And a lot of the books that are in my top tier are very sort of, I don't want to say plot heavy because romance is a plot, but they're external circumstances heavy. I love K.J. charles. Excuse me, the mysteries, the thrillers, all that sort of stuff. But after the Crash was not the type of romance novel I usually read. It's small town. It's two high school friends being reunited. One was the geeky gay kid in high school and the other one is now the supposedly straight ex military guy who saved the gay kid from the bullies in high school which was. Was so sweet. Even though he was quote straight. He's arriving back in their small town with a lot of ptsd. He's not quite the cheerful guy he was back when they were younger. The geeky guy has gone on to become a tech billionaire, very successful. And so the former friend needs a place to live so they move in together and you have that very trope again. Gets back to the tropes of late 90s gay pornography as well. Of like the off limits guy, the guy who should be forbidden, which I think has been a through line through almost every book we've talked about. A teammate is essentially forbidden, which is kind of what was going on with unwritten rules. But they fall in bed together. And it is one of the first books where it was really propelled by me for. Propelled for me by the erotic kind of unveiling of these two of kinds characters through the sex scenes. And it was just beautifully written and so. And it has that kind of heated rivalry heat because the idea of the sort of technically submissive gay guy who enjoys being on the bottom being the force that leads the gruffer damaged by awakening character into the light and into the warmth. That idea I love when any writer or anyone plays with the that idea that the submissive position in the bedroom is often the most powerful one because they have the power to completely cut things off. If it's a healthy consensual situation. No. Or this is too far over. That power really lies with them if things are constructed and discussed through accurately. And so I say this. Maybe tmi, someone who does not play that position in the bedroom, the other person has a lot of power. And when a writer really captures that and the heat of that and the eroticism of that, the sunshiny maybe a little femi one is really opening up this space, opening up this world for the two of them. I think that is really sexy. And I just. I mean I gushed about this book on good. Like I said, I don't have a lot of reviews on this is a gold star Mm romance I wrote gold period star period Sterling prize. I mean I was in my feelings over this book. So I. I highly recommend it. If you're looking for that sort of intense eroticism in which the forbidden leads to something that's actually really warm. That kind of six episode of Heated rivalry feeling.
- [82:26]
A
Yeah.
- [82:27]
B
I am going to, like, this is, like, okay, really? Probably, like, the most, like, far out there. It has nothing to do with sports. But, you know, one of the things I really love about Heated Rivalry is, like, when you have a character who, like Ilia, who's, like, more confident, right? That then you have. The interesting thing is watching a character like Shane kind of realize, like, there's a whole world out there for them that they didn't either. They couldn't even really admit to themselves that they wanted. Like, that is a story that's, like, really appealing to me. And I think it's because, I don't know, like, I grew up in a small town. I grew up in Ohio. I grew up. You know what I mean? And, like, I just think. Think, like, you know, you then, like, kind of leave your home and realize, like, there's a whole world out there for you. And so I really. I'm. I'm really. I'm really drawn into, like, stories like that. And so I'm gonna talk about, like, I've talked about this book a million times, and I don't really care, which is, like, it's really out there. But go with me, everybody, which is Band Sinister by KJ Charles. Because this, to me, has that exact same, like, vibe.
- [83:31]
A
This was the one I switched out for Wild Pitch.
- [83:36]
B
Good job. I mean, I had other ones on my list, too, but, like, I think, like, it's really hard to like it. Like, I do think, like, the. As we've all sort of talked about, like, you really want to honor the. Like, one of the things about. I want to honor about, like, Heated Rivalry is, like, when we say it's an erotic romance that, like, these two people are figuring out who they are and who they are in a relationship, like, through their sexual relationship. And so although I had some other books that I think, like, were interesting, like, this one to me, you know, we have Guy and living with his sister Amanda. And, you know, they've heard all of the stories. Historical, right, About Sir Philip Rookwood and the murder and, like, he's a rake. And, you know, everybody in the, you know, neighborhood is just gossiping about what they're doing on, like, you know, essentially Regency Facebook. Like, can you believe what they're doing over there? And nobody really knows what they're doing over there, Certainly not on Guy. And then Amanda is essentially, like, thrown from her horse and, like, ends up at Philip's estate, and Guy Essentially, like, falls through the. Like falls down the rabbit hole, like, right. Like, ends up on the other side of whatever the looking glass you name. And I love that it's like a portal fantasy almost, only it's about, like, self discovery. And so, you know, you have Guy, like, really, like, not even really being able to. He had no idea. Like, he had no idea what was out there. And, you know, I've talked about this scene. Like, one of my favorite scenes in this book is actually they're, like, sitting around at dinner and, you know, there's all this, like, banter and like, you know, the, The. The murder is like, talking about, like, essentially, like, about God. And he has never heard people talk about this before. And it is almost like the. The most shocking thing he's seen. And that's like. I think the thing about this. This book is, like, obviously, like, you know, he goes on, like, a sexual journey with Philip, but it is also a journey where he opens his mind, right? Like, he learns that the world can be really different than he was taught. And then, you know, at the end, like, there's sort of this, like, fear that they will have to, like, kind of go back into, you know, go back into that small world. And you see Guy really, like, fighting in some ways, like, his own fear because he knows now that there' more out there. And I think in. In a lot of ways, I think that is just like, if you love that story, if that's like, if you really dig down deep and you're like. One of the things I love about Heated Rivalry is like watching Shane realize the world is bigger than hockey. Right. The world is bigger than the locker room, the world is bigger than, you know, that. Then. Then you might really like Band Sinister.
- [86:22]
A
Agreed.
- [86:23]
C
I. I told myself I was not allowed to recommend any K.J. charles books. Every time I've been on, I think I've recommended a K.J.
- [86:30]
B
charles book because she's what you're putting down. Yeah, she's.
- [86:34]
A
There's a reason why we all love her so much.
- [86:36]
B
Yeah.
- [86:37]
C
Yes.
- [86:37]
A
I mean, also, just to. Not to make this a KJ Charles show, but, you know, one of the other things that KJ does so well is she. She show. She shows the world that romance can be more than what somebody who doesn't know romance expects it to be. And I think that's what Heated Rivalry has done for people who. I mean, largely 95% of the people listening to this podcast are, you know, people who love romance novels listening to this podcast. But if you're here just because you love heated rivalry and you don't know where to go go next. I mean, one of the things that that that show has done is. Has collected people who.
- [87:20]
C
Yes.
- [87:21]
A
Didn't expect it. Just thought it was going to be like a pervy show about hot guys.
- [87:27]
C
Yeah. But I mean, I think this podcast is really important for that reason because my first experience with romance was being overwhelmed by the volume of content available to me on the Internet. But not. There was. There was no evident curation on Amazon. You know, there wasn't. And so I. I lucked into two books I really liked in Male Mail. But I. It could have looked. If I'd gotten some duds, it would have affected my whole. So like coming here and these things are so important. So keep doing what you do, ladies.
- [87:58]
A
Oh, well, thank you. I want to talk about Adib Karam's it had to be him, which is different in the sense that these are older characters, but I think has a really lovely kind of lingering romance that feels like it crosses time the way that heat of rivalry does.
- [88:27]
C
Yeah.
- [88:28]
A
So Ramin, I mean, our hero has just been turned down. He's proposed to his boyfriend and he is turned down because he is boring. And the boyfriend wants something else more different. And so he decides that he is going to be less boring. And the most interesting thing he can think to do is book a vacation in Italy with where he is going to go and meet a bunch of, like, hot Italian men and be exciting. Like. And he's.
- [89:06]
B
At least.
- [89:08]
A
If nothing else, when he returns, he
- [89:10]
B
will have had a great time with,
- [89:13]
A
like, all these Italian men because Italian men, they'll do the job. So.
- [89:19]
C
Not if they run out of condoms at the Olympic Village.
- [89:22]
B
That is true. They are un. So the.
- [89:29]
A
But things kind of go wacky and he accident. He doesn't meet Italian men. He meets Noah Bartlett, who he knew 20 years ago when he was in high school and when they were in high school. This book has a number of flashbacks to the. Their. Their young days, but when they were in high school school, Ramin. And he still is. He's not a small guy. He's. He's very uncomfortable about his size. He's uncomfortable about, like, the way that he looks. And now he's uncomfortable because he thinks he might be boring on top of everything else. And Noah, back in high school was a wrestler and was like, very popular and very cool and. But always incredibly nice to Ramin. And like, like you said, like, Ramin has a very clear core memory of Noah Protecting like sort of step stepping up for him when he was being bullied and. But Noah is now in Italy. Noah is bi. And Noah is in Italy with his ex wife and their nine year old son who the ex wife is moving to Italy and they're sort of. He's there helping her move there and, and getting the son settled. Although the son so has a choice as to whether or not he wants to move to Italy or stay in Kansas City. Anyway, when they get there, there's this sort of moment where Ramin and Noah meet. And then because there's this extended time where Noah's son is, you know, learning the ropes of Italy and his ex wife is moving into her new, you know, fancy place, these two have time to explore themselves and each other and Italy together. And so there is. I came to because I was thinking about tuna melts and I was like, well, I'm not gonna be able to get a tuna melt. But I do love this one particular moment at the end of it had to be him. And it's not really a spoiler, but it's really beautiful. And they are Noah. So, you know, they've done a lot of exploring. It begins with sort of meet cutes where they're sort of always surprisingly in the same place, like getting gelato, but also. But then it ultimately becomes like these two really exploring the world together and becoming more interesting together. And the first book in this series is about a sommelier. Clearly Adib is interested in like food and drink and like all the things that come with, you know, visceral feelings and bodies. But they've, you know, had their moment and they're headed up. Noah sort of is bringing Ramin to a restaurant that he really loves. And they're climbing these steps to a lighthouse. To like, you know, up by a lighthouse. And it's a million steps. It's like so many steps. And. And Ramin is like, you know, his knee starts to ache. I don't know why. I keep coming back to people who have achy knees. But, you know, I don't know, it's just. It's a microtrope, I guess for me.
- [92:37]
C
Knees ache.
- [92:38]
A
It's weird, but that's just the truth.
- [92:40]
B
And mine is. And then she needed more moisturizer. Fine. That's nothing. That's nothing about me at all.
- [92:46]
C
He falls first because his knees ache. Yeah, that's the microtrope.
- [92:50]
A
Exactly. And he says, you know, they get. They finally get up to the top, you know, to this restaurant, and. And they're toast. And they toast and. And Noah says, let's toast to no more steps. And Ramin is like, I would. I would climb a thousand more steps. Steps, like for one more night with you, like, for one more moment. Like this. This, like, glorious, bright moment. And it's so. I don't know why, but, like, it's just this perfect moment of, like, the things that we are willing to do for each other, like the sacrifices we're willing to make. Like, and then they have this, like, delicious plate of pasta that's, like, transcendent. And, you know, who can hate that? It's not a tuna melt.
- [93:39]
B
Close enough.
- [93:40]
A
It's the greatest pasta in the world. But it's just. There's something really beautiful about Adib's writing, you know, Adib comes from ya. And so there is. I think there is something about his writing that really harnesses, like, that breathlessness of the first part of your love. Like the. All the. All the stuff that just gives you big feelings and like, in that. That sort of effervescent beginning. And that's what Adib does really well. And I. Gosh, this is a beautiful romance. And at the end, you're just so happy these two found each other. So that's Adib Khorrams. It has to be him.
- [94:29]
B
Listen, now we. You're settled, everybody, you could watch, you could reheat it, and then you can read a bunch more books.
- [94:36]
A
Reheat it.
- [94:37]
B
That's what it's called, Sarah, when you watch it again, you're reheating it.
- [94:40]
C
You're reheating. Are you going to call the episode reheated Rivalry?
- [94:46]
A
Obviously.
- [94:46]
B
Obviously.
- [94:47]
C
All right, now we are. I love it.
- [94:50]
B
You've not seen this. It always makes me like someone's literally will just be like, I'm reheating. And everyone's like, yeah, of course.
- [94:56]
C
Oh, that's the phrase. Yeah. I call it re. Re experiencing. But reheating is better.
- [95:01]
B
Yeah, really funny, right? Like, and it was a. It was. When it was something, it was like, what are we watching now? Right? Like, this was like, right when it ended, someone's like, now what are we supposed to watch? Someone replied, re. Reheated. Rivalry. Now that's what everybody says. And I was like, that person, You're a genius.
- [95:18]
A
Perfect.
- [95:19]
C
But it is a great question. What are you supposed to. Supposed to watch next? I mean, that's. That's the call to Hollywood. It's like, we need more of this.
- [95:26]
A
We want it. This is the thing that makes me crazy is every time something comes Out. We show up and we. We watch the shit out of it.
- [95:37]
C
Yeah.
- [95:38]
A
Make more sexy, romantic stuff. Hollywood.
- [95:41]
C
I. They better. They better. I think, you know, like, it is. It. It is the. I just keep getting back to it is the power of embracing a fitness fan base effectively and trusting a fan base and acknowledging that fan bases, when they're well served, will do your work for you. You know, not all of it. You still got to promote the show and you still got to get it out there. But I just think this has been a beautiful example of that. And I can't believe that this example is also coming with the fact that it is a. A queer romance. It's just beyond my. Beyond my wildest dreams.
- [96:14]
B
Yeah.
- [96:14]
A
Yeah.
- [96:15]
B
Well, Chris, we are. We are really glad to have you today. Like, you know, I'm not sure this. We could have done this without you, literally.
- [96:22]
A
Chris, I really want you to write a cottage.
- [96:26]
C
Right.
- [96:26]
B
What?
- [96:26]
C
Wait, you. Is this.
- [96:27]
A
I need you to write, like, a Stranded at a Cottage romance for me.
- [96:31]
C
Oh, I could totally do that.
- [96:34]
B
Or you could just rent a really nice house and we could.
- [96:36]
A
Or you could just invite us over and we'll just pretend.
- [96:39]
C
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, absolutely.
- [96:41]
B
I mean, listen, we could just, like, reenact seeds. We could finally meet Eric Shanquin.
- [96:45]
C
Eric Shawquin could make us all tuna melts.
- [96:48]
A
Yeah, sure. Show a lesson in tuna melts. We could all do a little, you know how the kids are doing PowerPoints. We could all, like, do actual lessons. But what you don't know is that. And I'm surprised, but this is the first time. Is that my whole goal in life is just to tell people whose books I love what I think they should write so that they just write a book that is. And I would really like you to write a book that includes a cottage.
- [97:14]
B
Like a.
- [97:15]
A
Now we're separated from the world that we were in, and we're sort of, like, isolated in this perfect little idyllic place.
- [97:22]
C
Yeah, absolutely. We're so trapped. I did a novella in the Sapphire Cove Universe ad that I put out after I was here last called Party of Three, which was a Minaj with three men. And they were like, we think this is a terrible idea that the three of us are getting together because it's an established couple and a guy he couldn't. One of them couldn't be compatible with. But we should spend the weekend entirely in this suite that we have because it's one of their birthdays, making sure
- [97:48]
A
it's a really bad idea to get it out of Our system.
- [97:54]
B
Right.
- [97:55]
C
So a cottage is not a stretch from that. Does it have to be literally like an a frame kind of cottage?
- [97:59]
A
Or can it be a. I want it to be like at a distance. Like I wanted to be away. I wanted to feel isolated.
- [98:06]
B
Yeah.
- [98:07]
C
Do you need society to have collapsed or is that a little too. Christopher.
- [98:11]
A
If you want to do that, that's fine.
- [98:13]
C
Okay. That's fine.
- [98:14]
B
That's a totally accomplish real, to be honest.
- [98:17]
C
We have each other. I know. Yeah. This is a little. We. We'll leave that out just to make
- [98:23]
A
just about the fantasy then.
- [98:26]
C
Yeah.
- [98:27]
A
Then no, that trap. Guys.
- [98:28]
B
Good.
- [98:29]
C
Enemies trapped together during a snowstorm.
- [98:32]
A
Snowstorm is good.
- [98:33]
B
Yes. We like that.
- [98:35]
C
Absolutely. Lamprey attack. No, that's. That's the other. We'll do. We won't do that one.
- [98:41]
A
So, Chris, tell us where. What we're doing. What's next?
- [98:44]
B
Yeah. What are you working on?
- [98:45]
C
Let's think. Well, you know, I just handed over the most important writing process segment for me is handing my first draft to the brilliant Eric Shaw Quinn to get his notes. And so I have handed what I believe may be the final Sapphire Cove novel. Yes. Sapphire Thunder is going to be Jonas's story. It's going to be currently scheduled to be released next summer. So summer 2027. But in the interim, and we haven't announced this yet, but I'm going to do it. I'm doing bonus scenes that are going to actually be added to that lead up to a sort of standalone Pride season. Savar Cove is going to have its first Pride party, and that will be a standalone scene with Jonas that sort of teases what's to come.
- [99:32]
B
Perfect.
- [99:32]
C
And we're going to add those to the ebook so that you sort of get them. If you already own the ebook, if you update the file, it's like a new thing. So.
- [99:40]
A
And that's in June.
- [99:41]
C
Like I said, that will be around June. Yes. There's not a specific date for that, but the June of next year is the planned date for Sapphire Thunder. And Eric Shao Coin and I are podcasting every week. We actually had a host from Dateline on Dinner Partners. Yes. Josh Mankiewicz reached out to us and asked to be on our show because we did, as part of our amazing true Crime TV club, we served up one of his favorite episodes. So there's that. And we're working on a lot of exciting things. In the Legacy of Anne Rice, the celebration of Life was last year. And the complete event film of that, of our amazing event in New Orleans is@annrice.com for free. You can stream it for free using the Vimeo embedded. That was really my life. That's one of the reasons the final Sapphire Cove novel is not coming out until next summer is. Eric and I knocked ourselves out doing that event, but it was just such a success and the fans who showed up were so wonderful and gorgeous. And the event had live music, but it also had documentary films we made about Ann over the course of a year. And so it was. It's been nice to get back to writing books.
- [100:44]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [100:46]
C
And working on other projects. Dinner Partners has a lot of exciting things to come, so.
- [100:50]
B
Well, I don't know that I will meet Eric Sean Quinn, but you and I will be Dinner partners in a few weeks when I am in la. And we were almost.
- [101:00]
C
Yeah, I didn't tell the story of. I almost showed up for our dinner a month early. But maybe you were like, are we still on?
- [101:06]
B
And I was like, march, March. We are on for March.
- [101:09]
C
You were like, stop.
- [101:11]
B
I'm actually currently at the dermatologist, so. No, in Chicago.
- [101:15]
C
In Chicago. I'm in Chicago, so I'm looking forward to it. Yes, we have to have you meet Eric Shaw Quinn.
- [101:21]
A
Well, that sounds great. I'm not at all jealous and. Well, yeah, send me pictures, please.
- [101:28]
C
LA is not going anywhere as of right now. That could change, you know, any.
- [101:34]
B
No, it's fine.
- [101:35]
A
We're in it. We're safe. We're all three of us in safe spaces at least.
- [101:39]
C
Absolutely.
- [101:39]
A
Sort of.
- [101:41]
C
Exactly.
- [101:43]
A
Excellent. So where. So we can find the books? The books are with Blue Box Press. Right. One of our very generous sponsors, regular
- [101:52]
C
sponsors, podcast there with Blue Box and
- [101:55]
A
so you can find. And people can find you. What's the website that you would like people to go to to find you?
- [102:00]
C
Well, I have a Sapphire cove website. Visit sapphirecove.com which is not a real hotel. For a few seconds, you're going to feel like you're in a real hotel Website. All the books are there. And then the podcast Eric Sharquin and I do is over@dinnerpartners.com and we will
- [102:15]
A
put links obviously to both of those things in the show notes for the M.E. in the meantime, I am Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friends Christopher Rice and Jennifer Prokop. We are fated mates and you can listen to us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find fated mates online@fadedmates.net where show notes exist. If you click on episodes, you'll find every book that we talked about during this week's episode along with all the other things. Lots of Heated rivalry content I imagine will be there this year, this week and you can find us on Instagram and threads at Fatedmates Pod and on Blue sky at Fatedmates. If you want to talk about other books that would be great with Heated Rivalry as a as companions to Heated Rivalry, you can join us either there on social media or at our patreon, which is patreon.com fatedmates you get access to the Discord there where people are talking about romance novels all the time. It's pretty exciting and and probably talking about Chris Rice's books. See Travis Rice's books. We should say that.
- [103:22]
C
Yes, I do not search the Discord for comments about me, so say whatever you need to. Feel free.
- [103:30]
A
So again, Sapphire Cove is by C. Travis Rice and we are delighted as always to have you. Please come back again.
- [103:39]
C
It's I will come back anytime you want me.
- [103:41]
A
Amazing. Thank you so much and we love you everyone. Enjoy being reheating your rivalry.