S08.30: Irredeemable Characters: Morality Chain Redux

Summary

Fated Mates S08.30: Irredeemable Characters — Morality Chain Redux

Original Airdate: April 15, 2026
Hosts: Sarah MacLean (A), Jen Prokop (B)

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sarah and Jen revisit a beloved romance fiction trope: the "irredeemable character." They examine what makes a character in romance seem beyond forgiveness—whether by their own standards, their community's, or the readers'. They dissect why readers (and writers!) often gravitate toward these outcasts, scoundrels, and villains whose journeys towards redemption fuel some of the genre’s most powerful narratives. Along the way, they consider questions of morality, atonement, and genre conventions, referencing both classic and contemporary romance novels.

---

Moon Joy Interlude: Awe, Community, and Shared Experiences

[00:00–08:00]

• The episode opens with an energetic tangent on the Artemis moon mission, NASA’s daily photos, and the infectious excitement it brought.
• Both hosts reflect on the human ability to unite in pursuit of something bigger—even among everyday people, scientists, and NASA staff.
• Notable Moment: Jen shares a post by Jacob Harris:

  "Realizing that some of my inexplicable sadness about the Artemis stuff is that it feels like a transdimensional communication from an America that took a different path and chose joy instead of fear and hate." (03:05, paraphrased by Sarah)

• Sarah treasures the “moment of anti-cynicism” and marvels at the teamwork involved in space exploration.

  "What a cool thing that humans can do all together when we work towards something greater than us." (03:35, Sarah)

• Light, joyful banter about moon facts (and teaching them to children), astronaut moments, food floating in zero gravity, and online coverage of the Artemis mission.
• Transition: Jen suggests catching up with NASA on Instagram for “moon joy” supercuts, setting an optimistic tone to segue into their main topic.

---

What Romance Novel Would You Send to Space?

[08:00–13:00]

• Sarah poses an imaginative question—if you could send one romance novel with Voyager, which would it be?
• Jen doesn't hesitate:

  "Lord of Scoundrels." (10:14, Jen)

• Sarah contemplates the significance of “keeper” shelf romances—those books that have lasting impact.
• Playful suggestion: Ice Planet Barbarians as a meta pick for extraterrestrials to discover, for comedic effect.
• The hosts riff on which romance novels best represent humanity, and what it means for a book to become a genre or cultural touchstone.

---

Keeper Romances & Romance Publishing News

[13:00–22:00]

• Announcement: Sarah and Jen are involved in a Kickstarter for beautiful editions of five historical romances—Lord of Scoundrels, Dreaming of You, Butterfly Swords, The Magpie Lord, and Indigo—plus full-cast audio books produced by Julia Whelan.
• Discussion of what makes a book a perennial favorite and the complexity of ranking or recommending romances for posterity.

---

Episode Topic Intro: The Allure of Irredeemable Characters

[22:40–26:00]

• The episode’s main topic, suggested by listener request: romance characters considered “irredeemable”—those shunned or exiled for their bad deeds and how romance readers/writers find them compelling.
• Sarah’s take:

  "I love a bastard...I love a person who just really fucked up and doesn’t know they fucked up." (23:40, Sarah)

• Romance is described as a genre of transformation, often focusing on internal journeys of remorse, atonement, and self-discovery more than external action.

---

Defining Irredeemability: Examples & Genre Constraints

[26:00–39:00]

• Exploration of what it means for a character to be irredeemable—both as an archetype and how romance as a genre deals with (and circumvents) true irredeemability.

• Cressley Cole’s Immortals After Dark (IAD) Series

  • Lothaire: Introduced as an ancient, villainous vampire; readers eagerly anticipated his book, but by the time it arrived, Cole had begun to "turn the bus around"—humanizing him and prepping his redemption.
  • Declan Chase: Offered as the real irredeemable example in the IAD series—he runs a torture lab, vivisects supernatural beings, is loathed by other characters, and must go through a harrowing arc to achieve redemption (32:19).

    "He is fucking terrible...Mr. Vivisection, King of Torture Island." (34:23, Sarah)

  • Discussion of how paranormal and historical subgenres can “push the boundaries” of the redemption arc, because fantastical settings create narrative distance from reality.

• Sarah’s Bareknuckle Bastards series: A hero who is hated by his in-universe family and must atone.

  • A reflection on reader subjectivity:

    "It's a very difficult sell for some readers. But it is about restitution...about seeing a character go through the pain of understanding what they have done, and then making restitution." (40:15, Sarah)

---

Cheating, Boundaries, and the “Third Rail” of Romance

[40:51–52:00]

• The hosts pivot to how cheating is used as a trope in romance.
• Jen examines recent "cheating" books, including A Marriage of Discretion by St. Moores, and how they sometimes “pull the punch,” failing to fully commit to transgressive acts or consequences, which can leave the narrative unsatisfying or confusing for the reader.

  "You promise irredeemability, and then you’re not gonna deliver that. I don’t know." (49:19, Jen)

• Return to the idea: In romance, some actions are just unredeemable for some readers; the genre relies on readers’ willingness to believe in atonement and forgiveness.

---

Classic Examples & Reader Expectations

[52:00–58:30]

• Lisa Kleypas’s Devil in Winter:

  • Hero St. Vincent is an outright villain in the prior novel, yet his redemption and acceptance by the community comes through the heroine’s choice.

    "She sends her into the lion’s den to say, I know you're irredeemable, but I need you...he is sort of blindsided, like struck by her forthrightness, her innocence, her willingness, her...strength." (54:57–56:00, Sarah)

  • Discussion: Are there acts (e.g., rape) from which a hero cannot return—does historical genre convention sometimes “hand wave” away darker actions?

• Old School and Modern Dynamics:

  • Sarah recalls Till Dawn Tames the Night by Megan McKinney, where an attempted rape scene is undercut by a revelation of the hero's trauma. They discuss how the genre has shifted away from “hurt people hurt people” as an all-purpose justification.
  • Modern readers expect more nuanced portrayals—moving away from “trauma = automatic forgiveness” and requiring the character to do real work for atonement.

---

Community, Self-Perception, and Gender Dynamics

[71:02–76:21]

• The hosts discuss another angle: Characters who see themselves as irredeemable because of their own baggage (After Hours on Milagro Street by Angelina M. Lopez is cited as an excellent example).
  • The heroine "has built the walls that make her aloof and impenetrable and unlovable...she has to learn to return to community in this book." (73:04, Sarah)
  • The book’s heroine is “struggling to see herself as redeemable,” an inversion of the more common irredeemable hero.
• Jen notes that female characters who struggle with self-forgiveness can be harder to read, especially in a genre that often excuses men much more readily.

---

Big Picture: Redemption Arcs and Reader Satisfaction

[76:21–88:00]

• A philosophical turn:

  "Is this [redemption] too Christian coded?...But I guess I also think, like, if loving someone makes you better...you have to make restitution, you have to make someone whole...I think in order for me to be interested in a book, the things that will get me to DNF is if there’s no sense at all that they are willing to change." (78:27–79:19, Jen)

  • Redemption is not a static state; the crux is the internal journey from brokenness to wholeness.
  • Fan favorites like the Black Dagger Brotherhood’s Zsadist are cited as examples of the "I am not worthy" trope, but ultimately, those heroes still possess redeemable qualities—a crucial distinction.
• Dark romance and how far is too far:
  • Example: Mafia Madman by Joanna Shupe/Milla Finelli—Enzo’s criminality is accepted by the end only because he will not harm the heroine or her family.
  • The difference between paranormal/historical settings, where readers more easily accept “monstrous” actions, and contemporary ones.

---

The Risk of Moral Sanding

[86:21–87:00]

• Warning against flattening the genre by refusing to allow characters with messy pasts or deep flaws:

  "If we can continue to contract what readers feel is the acceptable amount of bad that a character can be, right, then you’re just... sucking the lifeblood out of all of the conflicts." (86:21, Sarah)

---

Notable Quotes

• On the irredeemable hero:

  "He is fondly referred to as Mr. Vivisection...King of Torture Island." (34:23, Sarah, about Declan Chase in IAD)

• On romance and redemption:

  "Irredeemable is a place you start in a romance, but I’m not super interested in it being a place you end up. That’s just like Breaking Bad or whatever, right?" (79:27, Jen)

• On human fallibility:

  "Mistakes are human, everybody. We all make mistakes, and many of us make huge mistakes over the course of our lives. And, like, we have to be willing to explore those mistakes. That’s what makes us human." (86:40, Sarah)

• On the keeper shelf:

  "There are books I’ve loved the minute I’ve read them, and I’ve never had an urge to read them again. And then there are books that have stuck with me..." (18:33, Jen)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Moon joy and community: 00:00–08:00
• Which romance you’d send to space?: 08:00–13:00
• Keeper shelf & new romance edition bundling Kickstarter: 13:00–22:00
• Intro to Irredeemable Characters: 22:40–26:00
• Paranormal & historical “big bads,” and the limits of atonement: 26:00–39:00
• Cheating as a genre “third rail” & how some books fake it: 40:51–52:00
• Classics—St. Vincent, trauma, and atonement: 52:00–58:30
• Community, self-perception, gender, & redemption: 71:02–76:21
• Can you go too far? Big philosophical summary: 76:21–88:00

---

Episode Tone & Style

• Warm, irreverent, affectionate for the genre.
• Mix of literary criticism, personal anecdote, and witty banter.
• Recurring self-awareness about romance fiction’s traditions and evolving norms.

---

Final Thoughts

Sarah and Jen assert that irredeemable characters—and the degree to which readers permit their redemption—are essential to the richness of romance fiction. By pushing the boundaries of forgiveness, the genre explores the full spectrum of flawed humanity and the hope for transformation—a journey, they argue, that’s as thrilling on the page as looking at the far side of the moon.

"Copy Moon Joy, everyone. Copy Moon Joy." (89:26, Jen, in a final callback to the opening)

---

Recommended Reads Mentioned

• Lord of Scoundrels by Loretta Chase
• Indigo by Beverly Jenkins
• The Magpie Lord by K.J. Charles
• Dreaming of You by Lisa Kleypas
• Butterfly Swords by Jeannie Lin
• Ice Planet Barbarians by Ruby Dixon
• Devil in Winter by Lisa Kleypas
• Daring and the Duke by Sarah MacLean
• Truth and Tinsel by Maya Alden
• After Hours on Milagro Street by Angelina M. Lopez

---

[End of summary]

Transcript

[A]

Jen?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We went to the moon.

[B]

It's really been very awesome, Sarah. Yesterday. So, okay, I will put this in show notes. There's a. There's just been a lot of obviously really cool stuff. But one of the coolest things I've seen, despite, like, in like, not just like, obviously the footage and all that stuff, but there's something called the. I think it's called the, like NASA Daily something or whatever. And what it is, is it's like the NASA Daily picture. It's like a picture of something. And two days ago yesterday, it was a really cool. Essentially, like, animation of the actual, like, where, like, right. Like, so it shows the Earth and then it shows like a little thing, like taking off from it. And then it like zooms all the way out of Artemis and it shows like the whole edit. You know, it's funny. Cause I was showing my students today, of course, they're like, you don't teach science. I was like, shut up, kids.

[A]

And it's. I know about the moon.

[B]

I was like, I love the moon. And, you know, it's like you can really see that, like, it's going to where the moon is not right.

[A]

And they're meeting the moon.

[B]

And the kids were like, but it's going to miss it. And I was like, no, it's not.

[A]

I tried to explain to my daughter this morning. We were walking to school, and she was like, I don't understand how. They were on the backside of the moon and the moon was light. Like, isn't the moon always dark at the back? And I was like, no. Cause the moon is going.

[B]

Yeah, around.

[A]

You gotta keep a lot of things in your head, kid. And so as we were walking to school, I was like, my hand is the Earth and my other hand is the moon.

[B]

And it's.

[A]

You can't do it with your hands while walking. Everybody. You gotta draw a diagram or just ask NASA and they'll explain it to you.

[B]

But.

[A]

Well, also, the moon is tiny. It's out there seeing. Yeah, I'm loving this moon shit.

[B]

Welcome to my world.

[A]

And as you know, like, I could take or leave the moon, largely, like, it's all right. I know about moon signs and things like that. But man, these pictures, these four nerds just out there floating in space. Yeah. Nutella flying by.

[B]

So pure, so amazing. You know, this other.

[A]

Spending 40 minutes just without being able to even contact Earth. What a gift

[B]

it truly, truly is. I sent you all this. It was somebody I saw it on. I think it was just like someone's post on. On, I don't know, Blue sky or something. And they were just talking about how, like, maybe one of the things that this was somebody named Jacob Harris. And it said, realizing that some of my inexplicable sadness about the Artemis stuff is that it feels like a transdimensional communication from an America that took a different path and chose joy instead of fear and hate.

[A]

Yeah. And I just was like, listen, this is the most. I got into bed last night and I said to Eric, like, the fucking moon shit, I love it. And he was like, well, you know. And he started to, like, grump. And I was like, no, let us have this moment of anti cynicism.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is like four people in a tin can as far from the Earth as we've ever been, looking at the backside of the fucking moon and all. And I was explaining to my daughter this morning on the walk to school, like, the hundreds and thousands of people who have helped over the years, from like, Mission Control to, like, scientists who make eclipse glasses, to, you know, the people who clean the hallways at NASA, have all worked to do this and what a cool thing that humans can do all together when we work towards something greater than us.

[B]

Yeah, No, I agree. Yeah. I've been strangely. Yeah, right. I've been strangely moved by it.

[A]

And if you have not all the backs and fors.

[B]

Oh, yeah, right. Just like, even like me sitting around watching the live stream of people sitting around in, like, mission control center, you know, not doing much.

[A]

The women who talking and like, so many women have been talking and explaining and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My favorite moment though, by far, is when one of the astronauts just. He couldn't control himself. He was just so fucking. He was like, holy shit, Moon. And he was like. And I see this and I see that and it's all amazing. And he just. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then there was a pause and Mission control goes, copy, Moon Joy. I know. Moonjoy.

[B]

Yay, everybody. If you did not listen to our first season of the podcast, when we did Kressley Cole's Immortals left her dark. We had a s. We had a astronomer on. Yeah. Because I was like, I gotta ask about all this moon. That had to do essentially with all the. Everybody.

[A]

Jen had some real problems with the moon.

[B]

I did. I did. I did like, moon rep. It's true. There were things where I was like, I'm sorry, this is.

[A]

There is no, like, moon own voices discussion in any of the edits of those books.

[B]

Sorry. I was literally like. I was like, I'm Sorry, the copy editor really did you wrong here.

[A]

It's impossible for it to be a full moon at this hour.

[B]

It is.

[A]

What a dork.

[B]

I'm sorry. So listen, what I've been telling you here is I've been like, basically keeping my moon joy under wraps for seven seasons and. It's back, baby. It's back.

[A]

But that picture of it. I know the colors of the moon.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And my daughter was like, is this AI? And I was like, no, this is the fucking moon. Look at it.

[B]

Anti AI.

[A]

Real moon picture.

[B]

We sent four people up to just put their eyeballs on it and see what they find out.

[A]

Just have a look.

[B]

Just go up there and have a look. See, it's like looking in the back your closet for like, the sock that's missing or something. Only it's, you know, a planetary body.

[A]

Listen, I love all these guys. I love the guy with the bracelet and the heart. Copy heart, copy bracelet.

[B]

I love.

[A]

I love the pilot who told his wife that he loves her from the moon. I love the. I love Carol's husband who got a crater named after her from his every. Listen, everybody online is like, he named a crater after her? No, his friends loved this them so much, they named a crater after her for him. It's all perfect.

[B]

I love.

[A]

I love that lady's curls just bouncing around. I love that there's Nutella just flying around in space. No notes. A.

[B]

It's been great. It really has been.

[A]

So if you have missed the moon stuff, do yourself a favor, head over to Instagram, follow NASA. I'm sure by now, by the time this episode is out, there are like, super cuts.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, right.

[A]

Of the moon of Moon Joy. The Artemis crew is back already probably by now, and man, they splash down on the 10th.

[B]

So that's a few days from now.

[A]

So they'll be back, unfortunately for them. And. But, man, they got to see the back of the moon.

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy. It's pretty awesome. So anyway, everybody, we've been really excited here about Moon Joy and hope you enjoy. Yeah, it's been great.

[A]

Happy romance joy.

[B]

Well, there you go. Why don't you introduce us? Sarah?

[A]

Everyone, welcome to Faded Mates. We are not a space podcast. We are a romance podcast. And I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[B]

And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. But of course, now you say that. I'm like, I guess we should have saved ours. We have done space romance. We've done, like, aliens.

[A]

You know, Ben over. Yeah, we'll put links in the show notes. Listen, the moon. What romance novel would you take to space? Wait, you know they send that gold disc out to Voyager, right?

[B]

Okay, this is a fun question.

[A]

Yeah, you all must. Okay, I'm letting you think. I'm letting you cook for a little while. Everybody, if you don't know this, although I'm sure all of you do. When they sent Voyager out and the concept behind Voyager was, it was. It was just gonna go. They were just gonna shoot it out into the world. It's never coming back into the universe. It's never coming back. It's just going and going and going and going. And it sent back pictures of lots of things, and now it's just gone. Like, we. It's just going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the idea was, well, someday another civilization might discover it. And if they do, if it's coming toward them, they'll probably go and get it because it'll be weird that it's coming toward them. So on Voyager, there are these golden discs, and they carry snippets of language, music, the sounds of the animals on Earth, coded photographs, like, all sorts of things that show, you know, the different things that are. That have happened of what Earth is. And so I don't actually know. I would like to read a book, and I'm sure there is a book about, like, how that came to be

[B]

that, like, and what they decided to

[A]

put on, how they decided what would go on it. But anyway, my question is for you, Jennifer. Yes. What romance novel would you send on Voyager into space?

[B]

Lord of Scoundrels.

[A]

Of course it's Lord of Scoundrels. It is.

[B]

Sorry. I'm not sorry. That's what I'd said.

[A]

Best of Us.

[B]

That's a good foray for us to also just take a bit of a moment. Although I'm not really done talking about space, because I want to talk about that Ryan Gosling movie.

[A]

We can come back around. I'm gonna think and see if I can come up with something else.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like, should it be Ice Planet Barbari?

[B]

Shut up.

[A]

That's amazing. I mean, that would be pretty amazing.

[B]

That'd be pretty funny.

[A]

If you catch the Voyager and you listen to, like, Billie Holiday and speeches from Churchill and. And then you read Ice Planet Barbarians, and you're like, now, what the is this? Because it's sort of meta.

[B]

It would be.

[A]

The question is, does the civilization that finds this. Do they understand meta? Would they be amused by Ruby Dixon,

[B]

or are they, like, these assholes? They don't know how anything works. Leave them. Leave them there. Let's not go there.

[A]

Don't leave us. If you can hear Faded Mates, come back. Please come.

[B]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Neha Liu, author of Midnight at Soulfield.

[A]

Jen, it's an incubus romance. I'm so excited.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Our heroine, Midnight, has suppressed her magical gifts to keep demons at Bay for 18 years. But every night, he comes for her. She can't move. She can't see his face, but she can feel his claws on her skin, his breath against her throat, and his voice in her skull telling her that they are bound by the cords of fate. And her body is responding even as her mind is screaming that this is a very, very bad idea. Midnight has been admitted to Soulfield, which is a mag academy. And there it starts to become clear that her soul magic is more powerful than anything anyone at the school has ever seen. And it's actually pretty scary. So she ends up caught between three forces. Three men. Alistair, the protective heir whose unwavering presence pierces her, her high walls of protection. Jack, a volatile outsider who mirrors and understands her most shameful secrets as. And this really scary, really compelling, possessive demon who whispers about her being only needing him. So Midnight is fighting for body, mind, soul, love, and realizing that if she's going to survive this, she's probably going to have to stop running from her demons and start embracing them and maybe other things too with them.

[B]

So, I mean, obviously we are delighted by this. So if you would like to check out Midnight at Soul Field. It is a spicy, dark academia incubus romantasy with dark themes featuring a possessive, morally gray characters and also like a unfolding mystery with suspenseful twists and magic. It is available right now in print, ebook or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Nehaliu for sponsoring this week's episode. All right, let me take. Okay, you think of your answer while I talk about two other things. So space related. I did go see Project Hail Mary in IMAX Mr. Reads Romance. And I went to see that because I do like. I like the Martian a lot. I like Ryan Gosling a lot. And I, you know, I was. And what had happened is my son, sister in law, Janine had gone to see it when we were in LA and she was like, you guys, it's great. And so we went and we had a really awesome time. It was just like a really, I don't know, I just like, that's like one of my favorite kinds of movies. And so anyway, if you're like, I want more space, then go watch that movie. The Martian is also very good.

[A]

I.

[B]

Okay. Related more to Lord of Scoundrels Everyone, you have probably been seeing us reposting and sharing a really cool project that we are part like, I don't know, we're the junior partners, I'm gonna say, on a part with Adrianna and Ali's right. Ah, two productions they are. We're putting together a really amazing bundle of five perfect historical romances. And this includes Lord of Scoundrels, Dreaming of youf, of course by Lisa Klapis. Cause we were involved in, you know, Butterfly Swords by Jeannie Lynn, the Magpie Lord by K.J. charles and Indigo by Beverly Jenkins. Is that the five? Yes. And we are like slowly over the next like couple of weeks releasing like sort of what the books are gonna look like. The Dust Jack inside covers a lot of the really cool artwork that has been that you have been seeing on Instagram. So there is a. I'll put this or you know, it'll be in show notes or up at the top, on the top of the header of the page there's a link to the Kickstarter page which is not live yet. Like it's just sort of like there. But you can follow it. And the reason you would want to do that is then you'll just be getting updates and emails and information. So if you're not on Instagram or you're not following it there, then you'll be getting all of the relevant information for this right in your inbox. So if you are someone who loves historical romance, this would be a really cool. I don't know, I just am really inspired by the idea of having beautiful editions of some of our.

[A]

They are so stunning, everybody. And then on top of it, Julia Whalen is producing the Lord of Scoundals full cast audio and the Indigo full cast audio and she is playing Jessica Trent. It is so great. Robin Lee is playing Hester from Indigo and attractive, deep voiced men are playing the other the men there, who cares.

[B]

And you know, I will tell you something, Sarah. We knew we have been knowing about Julia Whelan's involvement for a long time and I knew she was going to be Jessica Trent. And still just thinking about it makes

[A]

it so exciting, gleeful in a way

[B]

that I cannot even tell you about now. I just want to Follow up. Because one of the things is, you know, someone was like, oh, would you do other of the books? And, you know, we could only get the rights to those two books for audio. So, you know, no matter. It's not like a stretch goal. It's not like something we're like, you know, like, promise or try to do later. Like, we just really. They, you know, could only get. Get the rights for those two books for this particular project. But I'm really excited about it. And so, yeah, the best thing to do right now is just like, head over, like, you know, look on the page or head over to Kickstarter or go to Instagram and just, you know, essentially follow that Kickstarter page, which I think is just, like, the best way to like, be on top of all the updates. So there you go.

[A]

Links in, show notes. Yeah. I gotta tell you, I mean, like, truly, I think any of the trailblazer books in that book would be a welcome addition to the voyager romance novel Journey.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But I mean, it's gotta be Lord of Scoundrels. It's Lord of Scoundrels because the writing is so good and Dane and the callback to Beauty and the Beast and the Jessica being so fierce, and the fact that it's in England and in France and the fact that it's, you know, history but also modern and a plus. I also think, you know, for something like that and Ruby Dixon.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Scoundrels and Ice Pineapple Barbarians Bind Up. You know, I think the thing that's, like, really interesting about that too, though, is. And we've talked about this a lot, and maybe at some point we should figure out how to do an actual episode about it. But, you know, sometimes you don't know what your favorite books are. The. You know, like, there are books I've loved the minute I've read them, and I've never had an urge to read them again. And then there are books who have, like, stuck with me that have, like, surprised me where I've been. Like, yeah, that book was okay. And then it's a book that I, you know, so the whole, like, keeper shelf thing is so real. And I think the thing about, like, picking something like this is it really is, like, okay, well, it has to be something that has been. Has, like, had, like, sort of risen to that status. Right. And. And stayed there. Right. Not a book that, you know, so it's like, you know, would I say something different 10 years from now? I mean, like, I think about the book, like, White Out A lot. Right. Because I think it's.

[A]

I know why not to speak.

[B]

I know they would be like, wait, hold on.

[A]

So.

[B]

So corporations are the bad guys, right?

[A]

Corporations are the bad guys.

[B]

Are the bad guys. Like, I'm like, I think that that's onto something. So anyway, Murder Bot New why not? So funny. Just funny.

[A]

I mean, also I just think it's funny how you say favorite. Right? Like favorite. Such people always ask me, like, what's your favorite romance novel? And. And it's funny because I don't. I mean, like, I don't know how I. I don't know how you feel, how you pick a favorite. Right. I mean, my favorite. If you're. If you're saying like, what's the romance novel? You go back to again and again and again and again, then I have an answer to that. But it's not Lord of Scoundrels. But like, if you said like, what's the romance novel that you would like press into someone's hands on Voyager in a future, like in a far away dimension. Dennis Lord or Scoundrels. And I feel like, man, you know, I feel like it's just always such a difficult when you're as well read in a genre as you and I are. These are just difficult questions.

[B]

They're impossible.

[A]

I mean, but honestly, maybe I'm gonna cheat and say we send the whole trailblazers collection. Sure. Then they get Jeannie, they get Bev, they get kj, Lisa and Loretta.

[B]

There you go. Boom.

[A]

I mean, that's your desert island collection too.

[B]

Somebody was like, what romance would you take on a like, deserted island? And I was like, well, I guess a long one. Like, what? That's it. I've got one book. Can I take my Kindle? Like, what's gonna happen?

[A]

But you could spend a pretty good time on a deserted island with those five books.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

In a reread rotation.

[B]

Oh, sure. Absolutely.

[A]

Other things to say. But I mean, I guess also like a book that represents.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Because that's the thing about this Voyager thing is it's supposed to represent Earth and I don't know about that. Then maybe I would say Bev, I mean, as though they are American set. They do sort of represent what we do either way.

[B]

Right. Like the best romance is about the human condition, so. Right.

[A]

But like something like Indigo represents the worst and best of us.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. You know, versus stupid Dane and his stupid man feelings.

[B]

You can't send like low there because

[A]

what a Dr. Oh my God.

[B]

Because then they'd Be like, hello there. You can't be like, you can't send low there. It's like, you know too much.

[A]

But you could send Rune and then that was a whole dimensional thing. They end up in space.

[B]

Sure. They'd be like, let's do it. Oh, my God. Funny.

[A]

All right. Okay.

[B]

Tell, tell. Tell us what we've won today.

[A]

Well, you know, we always say on the podcast, I often at the end say, if there's a topic that you want us to tackle, you know, if you have an idea for an episode, let us know. And I know a lot of you think like, oh, that's just a throwaway line that Sarah says. And it isn't because Jen keeps a big list.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then sometimes I look at it.

[B]

Yes, true.

[A]

But actually this came from maybe the disc. Was it the questions from the ama, maybe. Or it was like on the discord, somebody, I apologize, I don't know who said, I'd really love it for you. I'd love for you to do an episode about the irredeemables, meaning the characters who have been considered irredeemable in within the text. So exiled from their families, unloved by their families because of something they've done that's bad.

[B]

Right. Or.

[A]

And then I thought, well, that's a really good idea because I think that everybody knows. Right. I love a. I love a bastard, like, metaphorically. And I love a person who just like really up and doesn't know they up at the beginning of the book. Right, Right. I like them to be bad and not know it until love whacks them over the head. And then they're like, oh, I'm bad. Like, I was bad. And I think that as, like, I think as a general rule, romance likes these characters.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, because we are a genre of transformation. There is. You can write a romance novel with very little external plot if the internal plot is he or she or they did a terrible thing and has to turn it. Turn themselves around.

[B]

I agree with that. I think the other thing that I think is really interesting about the, like, these books, like, to me, right. And to me, like, this is really like a core story of romance is a lot of like, anti heroes are so popular in like, pop culture. But in anti hero in romance, I think is going to be. It's going to turn back to like the light, essentially. Right. And even. And I think, like, I also want to point out, like, this is not meant to be like a. An episode that's like a proxy for dark romance. I think Dark romance is potentially doing, like, really interesting things here, but that's, like, not what we're, like, trying to do here. I think maybe, like, we will talk about some of those things, but, you know, I don't think either of us are, like, very read a whole lot.

[A]

I'm not well enough for.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Right. So any books that we talk about here are just, like, kind of in that theme. Here's the other thing I will also admit, because I like to admit this in advance, I'm basically raw dogging this episode. I've done no prep. I'm just gonna let Sarah talk and, like, see what comes to me. We're just gonna, like, everybody.

[A]

I did a little bit of prep, but, I mean, we are gonna talk about some books that I. I think. Here's the thing. I think I love this concept, and I love it instinctively as a reader. I love it as a writer also, although I think I'm not as good at writing an irredeemable hero as others. But I think that. So I think we'll probably be treading familiar ground for those of you who have listened for a long time, because I think we're more interested. While, of course, we are interested always in recommending great books to you, I think I'm much more interested in, like, having the conversation around, like, why we love this character. Right. So we did, like you said, we did a morally gray or, like, a morality chain episode many seasons ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And I think that the reason why, you know, I think Lothaire, you already brought him up because we were talking about space. But I think Lothair is a really good place to start as sort of a primordial morality chain concept. Right. We have a character and also an irredeemable in some ways. Although that is not the Cressley Cole book that I want to talk about for this episode. But let's start with Lothaire, and then we'll talk about why. I actually don't think Lothaire is right for this episode, even though he is right for this episode. You'll all. It's fine, everybody. You'll just come along with me for the ride. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Claire Contreras, author of Isle of Wrath. Oh, we talked about this one on the spring preview episode.

[B]

I know. It looks so great. We've got a romantasy where we have people bound by a curse. Right. And the way it works is. Oh, I mean, who doesn't in Lunaris, as everyone trades their memories for for asylum. So no one remembers their past, their homeland, or the curse that traps them behind this wall of darkness called the shroud. And all they know is, like, the set of rules that they are now bound by. So Ada has a twin brother who is struck by a poisoned arrow. And if that is the point where she breaks the most dangerous rule of all, she bargains with the Goddess of death to save his life. What she doesn't expect is for the goddess to send Malachi to help her. But the goddess essentially binds their souls together until Ada repays what she owes. And now she has to help him do the impossible. Lift the shroud and break the curse that's kept Lunaris hidden from the rest of the realm for 300 years. And in doing so, she's going to be pulled into a forbidden world where a monster is lurking. But also this handsome man is going to help her break this curse and they're going to get away. And I believe in them.

[A]

Well, I also believe in them, and I believe in Claire Contreras because she writes a great book. So if you are interested in this, you can get it right now in print, ebook, audiobook, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Claire Contreras for sponsoring this week's episode. The structure of Immortals After Dark is like it's monster mash. Monsters exist. They live alongside us. Humans can't see them, but they exist, right? We, over the course of the series, over the course, of course, the first, I don't know, eight books meet this character named Lothair. He's the oldest of the vampires. He is, at least at the time of his writing, he's the oldest of the vampires. Like, he is a vicious character. He is basically he is the like Mercer, a mercenary of sorts. He kills for sport. He is in the. He is the, the vicious hand of a vampire king. And we see him do terrible things both to the characters within the books and to others. And he doesn't seem to have any moral compass whatsoever. He's arrogant to a fault. He is more powerful than most. He is more intelligent than most of the characters and we salivate for him. It's like Crassley puts him on page in like book two or something.

[B]

Yeah, it's early, right?

[A]

And he is just like, he sort of lurks in the background for a while and then she brings him forward and readers just like, we're so, so drunk with love for Lothaire that when it came time for his book, they wrapped a tour bus. Simon Schuster wrapped a tour bus in the COVID of his book, in the face of the model on the book, and sent Kressy Cole around the country in a lot there. Wrapped tour bus because people were waiting around, like around the corners of bookstores for this book. And he is in many ways irredeemable. Right. Like, we don't. We don't see him in any decent light until it's time for his book. Except she starts to turn the corner on him. So actually that's incorrect. He is many way, in many ways irredeemable for the first, however many. And then Kressley starts to realizes, I think she's gotta write him his book. And so she begins a new movement of the series and she brings Lothaire forward and his power becomes more important right on the page. And they need. And he becomes like a critical piece of the puzzle in some of the prior. In some of the books that like, immediately precede his. And we start to see him as his humanity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, he's clever, he's funny, he is sort of willing to do the right thing in a pinch. And so he's not. By the time we get to his book, he's not irredeemable anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, we've seen her start to turn the bus around. Which is why my prep, my proposal for the true irredeemable of Immortals After Dark is Declan Chase.

[B]

Yeah, I would agree. Yes.

[A]

Mr. Vivisection himself, a berserker in human clothing who fully tortures whole wide swaths of immortals right up to the beginning of his own book. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and like, through time.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like.

[A]

Well, he doesn't know it's through time. No, but.

[B]

But Regan does. Right?

[A]

She knows. Only because he's constantly reincarnated.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This book is. Now, listen, I would not go blind into this book. I would not start the series at this book. This is a book. This is a 400 level Kressley Cole book.

[B]

Like it is.

[A]

This is an intense book. But yeah, the premise is that the series allows for fated mates. Declan and Regan are fated mates. She is a Valkyrie, he is a Berserker. Berserkers can be reincarnated. And when they are reincarnated, they forget what came before. And Dec and Regan and Declan have been fated. Fated. And their fate, they are star crossed dozens of times.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Before they meet again in this book, in this time period. And when they meet again, he is running basically like a sadistic Torture science Lab designed to understand the immortals biology. And he is fucking terrible.

[B]

Yeah, he is.

[A]

And the true villain of the series for this part of the book. And his arc is to understand, like, he vivisects her, everyone. Like, he. I mean, this is. It's bad.

[B]

That is.

[A]

And his arc. So he was. He is fondly referred to as Mr. Vivisection in our.

[B]

So fond. We're so fun.

[A]

Mr. Vivisection, King of Torture Island. And like. But what's interesting is the moment he realizes, like, what he has become and what he is doing and how he is repeating history and what he is doing to her, he is broken. And that, I think, is the difference between a kind of villain, a really like, morally dark character who in these dark romances, who doesn't have to evolve.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

In order to be the hero of a dark romance, an irredeemable character has to be redeemed.

[B]

I think I've only read that book twice. So the first time I read it, and then when I read it before we did our, you know, season one, deep dive.

[A]

That's a difficult read.

[B]

That is not a book that. I mean, I have read and reread most of iad, like, several times. And that book, I just kind of always just boop, skip right over.

[A]

But I think that the reason why is because it's a. It's an unpleasant. Conceptually, it's unpleasant.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It also has a very tough beginning, that book that I actually don't think would exist if she wrote it today. There is a. At the very, very start of that book, you're in the way past, and Regan is a child, and they are fated and nothing happens between them. But it is just slightly squicky. But I think. I think conceptually it is a very difficult book to wrap your head around because he is so cruel. And I think that as a writer, Kressley's taking a big swing there, right? Like, how. How irredeemable can a character be and still be loved at the end of the book, be worthy of love?

[B]

Is it irredeemable if it's not irredeemable to the other character? When is it irredeemable to the reader? Right. Like, so there's some sort of, like, really interesting way in which, you know, like, we are sort of like rolling in and judging the characters too, Right? And.

[A]

Oh, a hundred percent.

[B]

I think that part's really interesting too. Like, okay, well, Regan forgives him, and so, therefore, you know, isn't that enough? Isn't that enough?

[A]

But that's the heartbeat of a romance.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, of course, believe it. Yeah. Have to believe that it's. That they are changed.

[B]

Well, and I think, like, one of the things that I think then is interesting to me about paranormal is that you can like, thematically explore these really, like, edge cases. Whereas in a. If this was a contemporary romance in the real world, my threshold for forgiveness as a reader is just like, way lower. Right. 100 and so one of the reasons I think, like, paranormal is really, like, so powerful in some ways is because you can, right. Like, sort of essentially, like, have people do monstrous things to each other, but because they're monsters, they're not humans.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so therefore, like, their threshold for like, kind of understanding, like, I don't know, like, what does it really mean when we say eternity if everyone can live forever? Right. And so I do think that there's a way in which, like, I. I do think, like, the irredeemable to like, like truly irredeemable characters where, like, I don't feel like I have to like, weigh in on that when or feel like this is, you know. You know, just like a book I don't really want to engage with is like the paranormal space allows. Allows that. Yeah.

[A]

A thousand percent. And it follows that historical is sort of the next.

[B]

Yes, you could.

[A]

You see it in historical, right? And.

[B]

Yeah, Romantasy sci fi.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like anything where there's like a greater distance between us and the, you know. Yeah. I don't know, the office or whatever. Right.

[A]

I mean, it's interesting, right, Because I feel like there's a. I mean, this question, right? This sort of irredeemable to the other characters in the book. So there is. So I wrote. In Bare Knuckle Bastards, I wrote hero. The hero of the third book is a killer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he does terrible things in sort of a. He does terrible things in the first two books and he does terrible things to the other characters in the first two books. And he is hated by his family in the first two books. And then he needs to be redeemed at the end. And now listen, I wrote a book and I intended for it to be

[B]

a book long grovel.

[A]

And it worked for some people. And some people were just like, he can't be forgiven. Right. And so I think this is a. This is a story that it is a. A myth that you either buy or don't buy as a reader. It's a very difficult sell for some readers. But it is about restitution, right. Like, it is about seeing a Character break. Seeing a character go through the pain of understanding what they have been, the pain they have wrought, and then finding, like, making restitution. And maybe there is something compelling about this for, like, I don't know. It's interesting that I haven't. That we don't see more of this in the world right now. Like, I. I don't see it in books very much now, but, man, there are a lot of people in the world who I look forward to discovering the pain that they have wrought and making restitution.

[B]

Yes. So, you know, we. It's been a while since we've talked about, like, cheating in romance, right? So we did a really interesting episode a couple seasons ago with Adriana that was about, like, mistresses, right? And I think, like, cheating was sort of like a, you know, kind of entered into the. Into the chat, if you will, right. At that point. Because if you're talking about someone's mistress or being a mistress, then obviously, right, the person is. Is married. Right? This man is married. It's often was like, you know, and I think we were really talking about historicals, but I have been really interested in. I have been really interested in sort of the rise of what I would call, like, cheating as a trope. Meaning, like, they are sold, right, as, like, cheating books in some ways, right? Like, it almost feels a little bit like the way, like, dark romance sort of talks about, you know, kind of the. There's a way in which you're, like, really pushing the boundaries on purpose, right? When you say, okay, like, this is a cheating romance or whatever, or this is a romance with cheating. And yet I have been really sort of also so kind of fascinated by the way in which some of these books which I have. Have read essentially, like, really are not taking the finger, right? And I. So if. If you're new to the podcast, way back in season one or two, Sarah was talking about, like, a conversation she was having with Sophie Jordan about this Annika Martin book where, right, They've kidnapped this woman, and they're, like, threatening to cut off her finger, essentially, right? With, like, a paper cutter. Like a paper cutter? Yeah.

[A]

Like, one of the brothers goes to Staples. He's like, no problem. I got it. And he gets a paper cutter, and he comes back, and then, like, it's a moment where the hero, like, has feelings. Yeah.

[B]

Am I gonna really do this?

[A]

And I'm like, I really wish he'd taken the finger.

[B]

And I think, like, that is, like, the fearlessness of it. Right?

[A]

Listen, I should also say every time I talk about this, I feel bad.

[B]

Annika.

[A]

I love that book so much. So much. Um, it's called Dark Mafia Prince, everyone.

[B]

What a book. I love that whole series. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Little, Brown and Company, publisher of Romantasy favorites including Throne of Secrets and in the Veins of the Drowning. And this week, Honey in Her veins by Ruth McKell.

[A]

This is Ruth McHale's debut Romantasy and it is really unique in that it's a cozy, romanticy set against the real world of the Appalachian mountains. So it has that sort of folklore experience, but it's definitely set in our real world. And here's the idea. Arthur Conaway desperately wants to free himself from the monster that it has inhabited his mind for years and he is fully losing control of it. He's just lost his mother, he's having a massive sort of mental break, and in a last ditch effort to feel whole again, he returns to the quiet bee farm that he'd once called home, hoping to use the sacred magical honey there to heal him in more ways than one. Now listen. Eight years ago, Ava Moreau, who was Arthur's first love, her Flora magic caused a terrible accident, harming her father and really ruining her self worth and her self identity. Although she no longer trusts herself with her magic, she is desperate to find a way to heal her father. And now Arthur's back and he needs her help too. So Ava has lost control of her magic again now that Arthur's back. The emotion of having Arthur back is putting everyone she loves in danger. And together the pair decides to trek to the source of Ava's family's magic to find a cure for Arthur, for her father, and to help Ava sort of get a hold of herself. There's a haunting presence in the woods and family secrets and a dark past and a kind of star crossed lover feel of this one. And Romantasy lovers who are looking for something a little grounded in the real world, I think are gonna love it.

[B]

Yeah. And it's a standalone, which might be a really fun way to get yourself into a great Romantasy. This is great for anyone who is looking for something adjacent to cozy that also explores a tortured hero and only one bed. So if this is for you, then Honey in Her Veins is available now. You can check it out by if your podcasting app supports it, clicking on the chapter title to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Little Brown and Company and Ruth McKellar for sponsoring this week's episode. Okay, so Cheating to me, is really interesting because I think, for this is an example where romance readers feel, many of them, that this is the third rail of romance. I don't want to read it. I don't want to. I don't want to see it. I don't want this to happen. This is not what I'm coming to romance for. Right. So I've been really interested in, like, sort of the rise of, like, cheating as tropes and at the same time. And it's not necessarily our policy to, like, talk about books here that, like, do, like, are. Are, you know, don't work or whatever. But I'm going to talk about a book that I read that I was really fascinated by called A Marriage of Discretion. And the author is St. Moores. And I was really fascinated by it because the plot of the book is that essentially the two main characters have an arranged marriage. And she, like. And she's a much younger, I think, and, you know, it's sort of like, because of business or whatever. And so she says to her husband, like, are you planning to still have mistresses? And he was like, I am. You know, this is just who I am. This is like the way I was raised. And, like, you know, this is not a real marriage. So. Yes. And so she says to him, okay, well, here's the deal then. I just don't want to ever run into these women, like, right. Like, if we are married, what I'm going to ask you to do is essentially, like, respect me enough to keep them away from me. And he's kind of like, okay, done deal. And a couple years pass, and it's like, really? And I was actually very interested in this because I was kind of like, okay, well, what happens is sort of the inciting incident is like, after however many years or something, one of his mistresses approaches her at a gala, and she essentially feels that is such a breach of, like, the. The agreement they made that she ends up. Essentially, the book sort of implies that she has, like, somebody she works with, and she starts essentially an affair of her own. And I was like, all right. Like, I was interested in this. It seemed to me that this was a book that was really going to, like, lean into. When is it out of bounds? When is it inbounds? And then how do people essentially decide to draw new boundaries together? I was very interested in it. And then the thing is, at the end of the book, it essentially is, like, disclosed that, like, well, basically neither of them had really been cheating, you know, and I was kind of like, what are we doing here? Right. Like, and it really felt to me. And I was.

[A]

And I was. That's not really a cheating book then. Correct.

[B]

And I was really. What I was really fascinated by, though, is. And this is why I, like, want to talk about it in, like, the context of being irredeemable. Right? Like, this isn't a book that I thought was very effective at, like, doing what it was promising. And then I was kind of like, but is this what the cheating books are promising to the reader? Like, right. Like, they're. We're gonna say that there's cheating. You're gonna, like, you as the reader, are going to, like, be on the edge of that. The characters didn't really know what was happening. Right? So there's this part where the husband, like, the way he figures out that the wife is now cheating on him because she's so pissed at him, is he sees her, like, go up into a hotel room and not come down for a couple of hours with this guy. And, like, the end of the book, she's like, we did fool around. There was some oral sex, but there was no. And I was kind of like, wait,

[A]

but that is cheating. That's cheating, right?

[B]

And it's like, really? And I felt really fascinated. Like, I was fascinated by this book as an artifact. And I was really like, okay, so who is this for? Right? Because the readers are going into it thinking that they have cheated. Like, this is. It flatly says, right, that this contains cheating. Right. In the, like, description. And yet then at the end, it's sort of like you pull back the curtain, and it didn't. And I just was like, who's that for? I was really fascinated by it. Like, truly fascinated by it in that sense of, you promise irredeemability, and then you're not gonna deliver that. I don't know.

[A]

Do you feel like these characters are presented as irredeemable? Like, are we supposed to find them unattractive, unpleasant, or problematic?

[B]

No, I don't think so. I think we are supposed to find him sort of the. The husband's name is Alessio. I think we're supposed to find him sort of privileged, wealthy, aloof, aloof. Right. All of that. I think we are supposed to find her at the beginning. Young, Right? Like, young potentially. And Right. Like, almost in some ways. I was like, really? Like, oh, is this gonna say something about, like, these age gap books that people gobble up or. Or whatever? Right? And I think we see her sort of, like, growing into her own as a woman from like, being essentially, like. I think she's, like, 19 or something when they get married. So I did find myself, though, mostly thinking, like, this is a book that says it's doing something and is doing something different. And I could not figure out why.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Like, it. Even when readers say, like, this is what I want, they're not getting it. And I was kind of like, huh, I don't know. It's just I'm so. I am fascinated by, like, the cheating as trope. Because I'm. Then I was like, oh, wait, is. Is this what these books are delivering? It's not really delivering this at all.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think this goes back to the issue with irredeemable.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like, I mean, not to talk again about my own book, but I think this is one of those things where, you know, there are the readers who won't forgive Ewan for what he has done in past books, are never going to accept the romance in Daring and the Duke.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because there is no scenario in which they will forget that what he had done, what he has done happened, or rather, forgive what he has done or understand why he did it. So this could be, obviously, a failure of the writing. But I actually think that what this is, is my unwillingness to tell you that this man has been. Is. Is irredeemable to his family, is exiled from his family, is loathed by his family, and never did anything to deserve it. Right. Like, that's a story that we tell often in romance. Like, this is a character who, you know, no one likes, or his family has exiled them, or they're, you know, his family has exiled him, or he is, you know, he has sort of. He pretend he is in some sort of, like, false identity, pretending to be worse than he actually is. He's actually like, you know, a villain with a heart of gold. But, like, what happens when they actually did do the thing, and when they did do the thing, when they metaphorically or realistically took the finger, then they must atone. And I think for me, as I age, especially in romance, atonement is vital. Like, that's what makes a book great. And I'm not saying that it has to be my, you know, like, my book, that particular book where it happens, like, the whole time, or, you know, I've written two books where, like, the whole book is, like, him atoning for past sins. But I think there is something really interesting about, say, St. Vincent. Right?

[B]

Yeah, right. Of course.

[A]

Clepus's Devil in winter, where St. Vincent is the flat out villain of the book before.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I mean Clepus is really doing a thing here. This is a character who literally kidnaps the heroine of the prior. Prior book.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And is like, we're going to Gretna Green, you and me. Now listen, this is sort of transformational in a lot of ways. Prior to this, whenever we saw a kidnapper, we saw somebody who like was going to be vanquished on page in the book in which he has done the kidnapping. Asterisk, caveat, pirates. It's a separate thing. But unless, actually I should say asterisk, caveat. Unless the kidnapping happens in the first like, you know, 100 pages of the book and it's the hero. That's a different kind of kidnapping. But like, you know, classic third act kidnapping. Usually the heroine gets kidnapped, swooped up, taken on the, you know, Great North Road and then the hero chases them down and like beats the shit out of him, slash murders him and that's that. He's on a slow boat to Tasmania.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But Clepus doesn't do that with St. Vincent. And what's interesting is that she sort of ships Vincent off into London. Right. Like, right. You know, Vincent gets vanquished within the context of the prior book. St. Vincent gets vanquished within the context of the prior book. Clepus kind of puts him on ice until his book comes around, which is the next book. And then she takes Evie, the heroine of Devil in Winter and she sends her in to the lion's den to say, I know you are irredeemable, I know you are a villain, but I need you because knowledge of your irredeemable actions and knowledge of your villainy is safer than what I don't know about my terrible cousin or whoever it is who's coming to marry her. Right. And then he is sort of blindsided, like struck by her forthrightness, her innocence, her willingness, her. She's so strong, her strength. And here is a character who is irredeemable to the rest of the love. The beloved characters in this series, right. Lillian comes in like a avenger saying how dare.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What did he do to you? And no one, of course no one believes that Evie chose it.

[B]

And like, sure, they assume that he must have manipulated her. Right. Like, right, right. Something. Right. Talked her into it. Right. He must have been the prime mover there. Yeah.

[A]

And of course what's happening here is very similar to Lord of Scoundrels. Again, like, not an irredeemable Dane is not irredeemable. He just would like you to believe he is right.

[B]

But the.

[A]

But here you have a character who is just like a perfect match, just, like, knocking St. Vincent on his ass. But I think that that's really interesting because the reason why the community accepts St. Vincent in the end is in large part because Evie does.

[B]

You know, in Evie's book, like, there's a part where she's like, you wouldn't have raped Lillian. Would you have? And he was like, of course not. Yeah.

[A]

There's Claypus sort of saying too. I. I know what I'm gonna say. And I. I don't know if it's. I already am like, is this right? But I'll just say it. I think that there are irredeemable actions for readers. Like, I think if he had raped, obviously, yes. There is no surviving that for him, which is ironic because if he had been the hero of Lillian's book, maybe we would have.

[B]

Would we have hand waved that away?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, we did, right? We did. For generations in romance. We hand waved it away. So I don't know if it's time or if it's that. It's not. It wasn't his. He was not the hero.

[B]

Right. Of her book. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, I think, a very, like, again, like, an especially thorny issue now where this is, like, again, in. In some sub genres, like back on the page in a big way.

[A]

Yeah. So there is. I have talked sort of danced around this book a lot, but when I was, you know, one of my very, very favorite romance novels when I was young, and this is not me promoting it. This is not me suggesting you should all go read. It is Megan McKinney's Till Dawn Tames the Night. It is a very dated book. It is. There is, like, overt. It's set in the. In the West Indies. It is about a pirate. It is very racist on. There is a lot of racism on page. And again, I am, like, warning everybody kind of away from this book. There's a moment in that book where the hero, he is a pirate. He is a marquis who has been kicked out of his family, and he is a pirate, and he is on a pirate ship, and the heroine is on his pirate ship. And they're literally going. She is the clue to the treasure that he is trying to find. That's the premise of the book. And over the course of the book, there is a moment where. And I am going, here. I'm going somewhere here. But there's a moment in this book where he they are in his bedroom, like, in his. Like on his island in the Caribbean. And he is. He is about to rape her. And it's. I don't know, halfway through the book, I mean, like, and it is overt, like, it's. This is happening. She says no. He throws her on the bed. It's like, it's a moment, a real old school romance moment. And she puts her finger into the gold hoop that he wears in his ear to stop him. She tugs on it to stop him. And he freezes above her. And he says, rip it out. It won't be the first time. And she is like, wrecked by this, right? Like, that he has experienced such, like, vicious, like, pain and like, you know, treatment. And then she starts to cry, of course, and then he can't do it. Jen.

[B]

That's how that works.

[A]

Right, exactly. So all of this is. This is obviously deeply problematic, but my point in bringing this up is that I think that is the key. This sort of like the way this used to be done in older books was like, suddenly there would be some revelation about the hero's trauma and then it would be like, yeah, hurt people.

[B]

Hurt people.

[A]

That he had behaved this terrible way because, like, he too was hurt. And I think we don't tolerate that now as much at 2. And listen, everybody, I'm. That's good, that's good. But like, we do as a genre, trade on trauma, right? On heroes trauma. And we do do a fair amount of forgiving them for the trauma that they have experienced, though that particular act is an. Is a non starter. But, you know, I think about in Elizabeth Hoyt's Scandalous Desires, which is the one about the river pirate, Mickey, you know, this is a man who is very. Who is irredeemable to society and has done terrible things, but also is like his cruelty to the heroine is like he toys with her. He's like, it's cat and mouse that. That book. And he. Again, this, you know, this is a real classic structure. I think maybe for most of these books that I think of as like classic historicals with this setup is like the irredeemable rake who has always been cat to my. To, you know, women who are mice, who thinks he has caught a mouse but has actually a tiger, you know, another cat. And I. I think that book too does this, like, really interesting. But it. Even in that situation, like Mickey has. He's not irredeemable to everyone. He has his like, mini community. Lothair has his like, mini community. St. Vincent is alone. Declan Chase Is alone. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Avery Maxwell, author of the Forgotten Billionaire.

[B]

Sarah. It is boom. Many years later. Amnesia and what I know. I'm so excited. Okay, so check this out. We have Clover. She has made a beautiful found family for herself in the cozy, small town of Happiness, Georgia. Until one day, she looks out across the middle of the town fair and sees the man who broke her heart looking at her as is. If she's a stranger, he is older, harder. She sees the shadows in his eyes. He's got an expensive suit, but, like, what is going on? He's like, he doesn't recognize her. Well, that is because Valen has amnesia. And it turns out that his first memory is essentially like waking up in a hospital and everything before that, his entire life, the person he was, this girl he loved, is gone as though it never existed. But then when he sees her, it's like he. His body remembers what his mind forgot, and he can just tell that there is, like, something between them. So he's like, okay, this woman has the key to my path, but there's a stalker in the town. Like, there's some, like, you know, kind of intrigue, and together they're gonna have to, like, figure out whether or not, like, kind of cracking the code of his memory is gonna save them both, and they're gonna be in love.

[A]

Incredible. If you also want to read about a billionaire with amnesia, then you should read the Forgotten Billionaire right now in print or ebook or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Avery Maxwell for sponsoring this week's episode.

[B]

I have one that I think is really interesting. This is a book I read. Well, I was. I was in my. I was reading my cheating era, and I found, like, a lot of books that were very interesting to me. And this one is called Truth and Tinsel by Maya Alden. And it was. It's like a marriage and trouble romance where the. The wife, her name's Mia, essentially, like, sees her husband, like, kissing this woman in, like, a gazebo or something in, like, in their backyard. It's like at a big party, or it says, I don't. I don't remember the exact details. And she is really, like, you know what? Enough of this. I've given this man all of my. You know, all of my, like, my time and my energy and my effort, and he never has, you know, like, sort of essentially like, you know, you really I don't know. It's just really interesting. Like, essentially, like, wouldn't at all, you know, like, essentially, this is like the. The. You know, the. The. The final straw for her. Now, the part that's interesting, though, is that. And I found this book to, again, be really fascinating. It ultimately is a book that, like, really worked for me.

[A]

She.

[B]

We find out very quickly that, like, the other woman kissed him. And, you know, and that's not, you know, like that. That whole business. But the thing that was actually really interesting was that she still leaves him. And the thing that we understand pretty quickly is that the she. The kiss was not like. Right. Her fears about him, infidelity or whatever were actually just like a. Like a. I don't know, like, appeared

[A]

to be the problem.

[B]

And the real problem was that they essentially. It's like a. Essentially feels like a class difference, right? So, you know, he is, you know, a very, like, come from a very wealthy family. His parents never really, you know, really approved of her. She is like, you know, he's like a CEO or something, and she is like a schoolteacher. And the thing that's, like, really fascinating about this is I found myself thinking, like, I found myself judging Mia. And part of the reason I'm going to, like, own this is she has a real, like. There's, like, you know, she's, like, making. And she's like, you know, like, making, like, homemade ornaments and, like, Christmas exploded all over the house. And, you know, she really is like, I'm making such a beautiful home for my husband. Like, by doing all of these things, he really sees, like, how much I care about him. And Aiden is actually really humiliated by this, right? He, like, feels like all this, like, Cracker Jack shit. Like, you know what I mean? He's like, I'm not a kindergartener. Yes, she teaches kindergarteners, but, like, why am I in it? And I was really, like, kind of fascinated by how I found myself uncomfortable with Mia's portrayal as a kind of woman that I sometimes feel like I have. I have a hard time with. Right? And I mean, I'm just gonna own that, right? I don't know where that comes from. I don't know, like, exactly what it is, but there's a sort of, like, I'm gonna, like, you know, DIY everything. I'm gonna, like, put spark, you know, I'm gonna put glitter on the pine cones at Christmas. That is just, like, not for. Not for Jen. And ultimately, though, like, a big part. And here's the other thing I thought that was really effective about this book is Aiden, as soon as she leaves is kind of like, at first, is a little like, okay, I. You know, she'll. She'll come back. And then he really has to figure it out. And it takes months and months and months. Like, this is not a book that, like, feels like, okay, once you name that a problem exists, the problem is fixed. Right. This is a book that really spent a lot of time, but I really found myself kind of feeling or thinking that this was a book that, like, challenged me in that way, because I really found myself thinking, like, I. I am judging Mia, right, For, like, essentially, like, trying hard in a way that is hard for me. And I don't know if that was, like, Maya Alden as the author. I don't know if that was on purpose, but I found myself really thinking that, like, I was a little bit on Team Aiden, that this is embarrassing, an embarrassing way for an adult to act. And then as the book goes on, really, like, switching my allegiance to Mia and feeling a little ashamed of myself for kind of buying into, like, the class warfare of, you know, a perfectly decorated home is going to look a certain way and. Right. Like.

[A]

And.

[B]

And it. I just was. It was a very fascinating book for me because I think. I think it's. It was uncomfortable to see myself in the, like, mean, judgmental kind of way that Aiden. It was, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I. I thought it was interesting. Really effective as a book for that reason. Yeah.

[A]

The Best of Romance does that, right? Like, flips the way we think of a character on its head and shows us that they are worthy of and, like, worthy of. Like, if you want to put glitter

[B]

on your pine cones, Mia, you go for it. Like, why am I judging?

[A]

Why do I care? Right?

[B]

Why am I in it? And am I in it?

[A]

And it was.

[B]

It was just a really. It was a. It was really a fascinating book to me. I really. I really found myself being truly, like, won over by. By the journey that I went on reading it.

[A]

So I think also there is. So we've talked about kind of, like, characters who are irredeemable to each other, characters who are irredeemable to the communities within the book books, characters who are, you know, irredeemable by their actions. I think that I want to talk just briefly about, like, characters who perceive themselves as irredeemable by virtue of, like, their own baggage. And the book that I think does this so well, that is a real favorite of mine is Angelina Lopez's After Hours on Milagro. Street. Because in that book, the heroine of that book, she's a real bitch. Yeah, right. I mean, a real bitch. And, like, has left her home in Kansas City and moved to Chicago, where she's, like, kind of known as, like, this, like, queen of the bartenders of Chicago. And then she, like, fails at her job, and she sort of has to go home, tail tucked between her legs, like. And she is sure that no one at home loves her. So sure of it that when she gets there, she sort of, like, makes it true. Interesting. And I think this is really interesting because her character. So she sort of abandoned her family, and so they have moved on. And not, like, look, families never moved on from abandonment, like, but they've moved on in the way that they have. She gets back, and they're all sort of like, well, welcome back. But there's sort of an edge of cool of There's a chill in the air for her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what she discovers there is, of course, that they have embraced this, like, white guy who is also an academic, who is there doing, like, academic research on, like, the history of her family and her. Their town and bar. Right. And he lives in their house with them.

[B]

He lives above the bar.

[A]

He is beloved by her grandmother, who she sort of the heroine sort of perceives has abandoned her. And so. And in this case, we've got a character who is irredeemable because she has made herself so. Right. She has built the walls that make her aloof and impenetrable and unlovable, if, like. If that's a word that we're using. And then she has to learn to return to community in this book. And he helps her do that by virtue of loving this community that she needs to return to. But I think, you know, Angelina does something. So we talk about Angelina a lot when we talked about unlikable heroines or, like, characters who. Who readers struggle to love. But in this case, this is really a character who is struggling to love herself and struggling to see herself as redeemable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But in a different way than, like, a classic romance hero who, like, doesn't deserve love, you know?

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And I think that that's another way that we see this. This story of atonement come back around. Like, she really does feel like she has to atone, even as she resists atoning.

[B]

I find those books when the. It's like a. A woman who sort of. Right. Like, sort of saying to herself, like, I don't deserve love or I don't write, like, I'm the One. I'm the baddie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Essentially. You know, those can be really hard, difficult for me to read because I, it's just like, not why I come to romance to like, sort of see. I mean, and I think the part of the reason why is I don't. I'm not saying like any woman should be above like, sort of self, you know, like kind of knowing themselves or like kind of knowing their own, you know, like strengths or weaknesses. But there's a really fine line there for me when it becomes like self flagellation, that it's just like too much. Right. It's too hard. And so I think those are books that can be, you know, really, really tricky.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's a very, very difficult needle to thread. I mean, I personally think Angelina is one of the few who does it.

[B]

Oh, yeah. So.

[A]

Well, I mean. But it's a very difficult, it's difficult. You know, I think this is also. Yeah, it's just easier to. It's more palatable with MF Also with men.

[B]

Yeah, right, exactly.

[A]

You know, we sort of expect men to be unpleasant. Apologies to the men in the crowd. But we just do, you know. But I also think, like, man, this comes back to the age old question of romance, which is the way we forgive men. Like.

[B]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[A]

You know, I'm, I, as you know, I'm a huge Peaky Blinders fan. And there is, and the mood, there was, you know, there are whatever five seasons, I think of Peaky Blinders. And then there was recently a movie and there is a revelation about something that Tommy Shelby does. Like he, he, he, he does something really terrible in the movie. Or at least there's, there's sort of a reveal that he's done something really terrible. Actually, there are a couple things that he does that are really terrible in the movie. Including, I guess, is it, is it far enough out from the movie? I'm gonna, I'm gonna spoil it, everybody. So just skip forward a minute if, you know, if you don't want to be spoiled. But he, it is revealed that he kills his brother, his, like, best friend. The man who has been by his side like for five seasons is not

[B]

in the Godfather energy.

[A]

Yeah, he's not in the film. And the reason why he's not in the film is because he's dead. And we're led to believe, you know, whatever reason. And that's actually what has happened to the brother. And it's. And Eric turned to me in the moment and he said, well, that's the End of Tommy. Like, you can't.

[B]

And you were like, you can't forgive that.

[A]

And it's. It's a brutal scene, right? Like, we see it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, well, but I

[B]

mean, tell me, Shelby.

[A]

And he's like, sarah.

[B]

Sarah.

[A]

And I mean, truly, that is the correct answer. The correct answer is, yeah, Sarah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But is. So I guess my question is like, is it. Is the chicken and an egg question, like, have I. Are. Am I wired this way? And that is why I like these characters in romance novels. Or are these characters in romance novels the way. The reason I am wired this way.

[B]

I mean, we'll never know. Everyone. We will never know. We will never know.

[A]

It's nature versus nurture. The romance version.

[B]

You know, sometimes I wonder, is this, like, very, like, the idea of, like, redemption or whatever? Is this, like, a very. Like, is this too Christian coded? Right? Like, I don't even. Like, I'm not even Christian anymore. Right. Like, if you're, like, listening right now and you're not Christian, are you, like, you all are, like, crazy, right? And I don't know that I may. Maybe it is. But I guess I also think, like, if the idea that, like, sort of, like, loving someone makes you better and that, you know, that there. If you hurt someone, there's some sort of, like. There's some sort of, like, cosmic, you know, kind of way that if you want to really prove that you are. You're deserving of love or deserving of whatever, that, like, you have to. You have to, like, make restitution. You have to, like, make someone whole. You have to write, like, whatever it is, like, the metaphor. I don't actually think that that's just Christianity. And I think, like, to me, that's why, like, I think, though, like, I. In order for me to be interested in a book, I think the things that will get me to, like, kind of dnf in a situation, like, with a. A character who's presented as irredeemable is if there's, like, no sense at all that they are willing to change. Right? Like, I think, like, irredeemable is a place you start in a romance, but I'm not super interested in it being a place you end up. That's just like, Breaking Bad or whatever, right.

[A]

It doesn't feel romantic.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Right. Like, I think you have to. To me, like, Right. Like, the redeeming power of romance, like, at its core, is this idea that, like, loving people, not even just romantic love, loving people makes you better. Right? This is in the essence of our humanity, we. We can't know what's going to happen to us after our lives are over. So we. All we can do is, like, be there for the people in our lives now.

[A]

It's Ebenezer's huge, right? It's like you wake up on Christmas Day and you send the boy to get the goose because there is always a chance to start fresh.

[B]

And I think, like, that's why in some ways the characters who, like, can't forgive themselves are interesting, I think are like fan favorites, right? So when you think about, like, Black Dagger Brotherhood, for example, like the one with Zadist or whatever, right.

[A]

Drama queen, you know, but like, people. That's really love that. Love it. Because, listen, I've written that character a million times too. And I. Listen, I'm just saying people love a hero who's like, I'm not worthy of her love, of her light, of her identity, of her world, of her. I'm not. She's so far above me, I can't even see sincere.

[B]

Right.

[A]

People love that. But the reality is, is none of those men are irredeemable, right?

[B]

Like, of course not. Well, because they have each other, right?

[A]

The guy who's like, down in the muck, like, having done some mad. I mean, I don't know, maybe you don't really want it. But in this, if this is the trope you are looking for, then what you are looking for is like, he had. You have to be willing to accept that he has done some bad.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And I think it's interesting, right, because it does. You started this episode by saying, we're not going to talk about dark romance. And we're not. But, you know, I think about Mafia Madman, right? Which is like, edgy. It's Joanne Milla Fenelli's Joanna Shoop slash Melafinelli's the third in her Mafia, her first Mafia series. And like, this is Enzo, who is. Has been tortured. We've seen him tortured on page. He is exacting revenge against the people who harmed him. He basically kidnaps the daughter of his enemy. Enemy keeps her in a cage like is. And they fall in love. And the reality is, like, he had. We have seen him do terrible. And this is probably the closest I get to accepting that at the end he is still going to do terrible. He's just not going to do terrible to her family.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think there's, you know, that's probably as. As. As close to dark as I'm willing to get. Because for this particular topic. Because I think in order for irredeemable. I think when we're talking about this kind of character, this irredeemable character in romance, what we actually are looking for is redemption. Like, yes. Like you said, it's too static a character if we don't see the shift. Right.

[B]

Well, and I think, like, a really good example for me, and I think this is why you and I both love A Heart of Blood and Ashes, right?

[A]

Is.

[B]

And I think she is deceived.

[A]

Yes. And. But he.

[B]

I mean, I think the other thing that is really fascinating about this book is, like, he also will not listen to her, right?

[A]

He is, like, decided out your tongue. Yes.

[B]

And I think about this all the time because I think the other thing you have to really, like. And this is. I think the difference between, like, a book that works and a book that doesn't in this, like, space is like, okay, so a man. I'm just not gonna really be interested that long. A man who just, like, cannot alter his worldview at all, right? Like, only sees things a certain way. Right? And I think, like, the fact that this book essentially shows them falling in love with him still, like, clinging so tight to this idea that, like, he knows how the world works. And then, you know, like, it could. It could go too far. It could. And instead, right. He figures. He figures it out in time, right? Like, he, like, sort of like, it's like, you know, I always think of it as being, like, essentially, like a, you know, pilot who, like, at the last minute, like, pulls up and, like, you know, manages to. Right, like, avoid crashing. And I think the thing about books like this is they really are like, this real tightrope. Because if you have that go on too long, right? If you have his inability to, like, sort of see her pain and her anguish and realize that he was. He's wrong about her. Right. I am wrong about her.

[A]

Then.

[B]

Right? Then you can see. And I think that's it. Like, the most powerful romances are the ones where you can see, like, this really could have turned out a different way. The ha is not inevitable, Right? Yeah. And I. And I think, like, for. You know, that to me, like, the irredeem, you know, she's seen a certain way. But, like, for me as a reader, like, his inability to just, like, fucking listen to her.

[A]

Can you just listen to her?

[B]

Right.

[A]

What if I sent that on the Voyager out into space?

[B]

I mean, they'd be like Dragon School or whatever, you know, I think you

[A]

can't send fantasy out There.

[B]

No, I don't. I think.

[A]

I think they'd be like, what the. Is on this planet? And then they get here and they'd be real bummed. They'd be like, what? I mean, we're gonna be a disappointment anyway, so you gotta set the bar kind of low,

[B]

I think. Not every character has to be irredeemable. But I think, like, the larger thing here is, like, if we can continue to contract the, like, what we. What readers feel is the acceptable amount of bad that a character can be, right, then you're just, like, sucking the lifeblood out of all of the conflicts.

[A]

Also, mistakes are human, everybody. I mean, we may. And some. And we all make. We all make mistakes, and many of us make huge mistakes over the course of our lives. Yes. And, like, we have to be willing to explore those. Those mistakes. That's what makes us human.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, and still worthy of love. And I think.

[A]

I mean, not like, tommy, don't do what Tommy Shelby did.

[B]

Well, I mean, but it's interesting, though, like, because this is what Michael Corleone does, and it is unforgivable. Right? We see him. You're, like, smiling. You don't think so? Okay, maybe not.

[A]

Obviously, obviously. It is, like, obviously. It doesn't make you.

[B]

But, I mean, we not wanna

[A]

smooch him.

[B]

Yeah, Okay. I support you. I support you. Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

It's just, like, he just needs love. He just needs love, Jen.

[B]

Well, his wife died in a fight or something.

[A]

I don't know. The problem, everybody, it's like, this is the problem. The I can fix him problem. The Can I pet that dog? See?

[B]

And I'm just like, no, put him back in the cage. Put Tommy Shelby back in the kennel.

[A]

Anyway, spoken as somebody who has not watched Peaky Blinders, but I've watched. I did.

[B]

I watched some of it.

[A]

Okay, then. So that's all we have for you today, everyone, and possibly ever. I'm Sarah McLean. I am here with. With my friend Jen Procop. We are fated mates. We love the moon, and one of us loves Tommy Shelby. And we do love an irredeemable character here at Faded Mates, so. Well, because I don't have to live

[B]

with them, like, fine.

[A]

Not my husband.

[B]

That's simply not my business.

[A]

Seem like you're gonna be real happy together. You can find us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. And if you'd like like more of us, and who wouldn't like more of us, you can head over to [e-mail] faded mates and join our Patreon, which will get you access to our Faded Mates discord, where you can meet romance novel friends and readers to talk about books 247 and then also you get another episode every month of Jenny Me talking about whatever we're talking about on that episode. You can also find us on Threads at Faded Mates Pod on Instagram at Beta Mates Pod on Instagram at Faded Mates Pod and on Blue sky at Faded Mates. And yeah, we love you all.

[B]

Copy Moon Joy Copy Moon Joy

[A]

Sam. Sa.