← Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
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- [00:01]
Ruby Dixon
I'm a paycheck player, as they like to say. I'm good at hitting deadlines, so everything like a New York publisher could ask for. But I wasn't really getting super anywhere. I would have one book that would do fine. It would do great, and then, like, it would just kind of taper off. Around 2015, I had been self publishing, like, some stuff that was under my manuscript bed because I was still writing faster than what New York wanted. And in 2015, Amazon came out with Kindle Unlimited. And I was like, oh, I want to try that. But I do have a lot of New York books and I don't want people immediately coming in back and being like, I can't read this one. I have to pay for this one. So I was like, I'm going to make another name.
- [00:42]
Sarah MacLean
That was the voice of Ruby Dixon. And you are listening to Fated Mates. I'm Sarah Maclean. I read romance novels and I write them.
- [00:50]
Jennifer Prokop
And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And Sarah had this great idea. We have, as you all know, done many trailers, blazers, which when we first started doing them many seasons ago was sort of. The idea was, who is it that is, like, recording romance's stories? And we're like, I guess we are. And, you know, many of those were kind of what we'd sort of conceived of as like, you know, the authors who built the house, right? Like, the people who were like early boots on the ground, kind of early in the romance space. The first people to do something interesting.
- [01:26]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [01:26]
Jennifer Prokop
A lot of the people that were, like, doing it first. And, you know, we are in no way saying that we captured all those voices, right? Like, there are people we couldn't get to. There are people we haven't thought of. Right. Like, that doesn't mean that that idea will never come back. But then we started to really think, like, okay, but a lot of our listeners maybe didn't read those books. Like, they're interesting. But, you know, who are the modern trailblazers? This was Sarah's idea, right? Like the people who we all know and love, but that are also leaving a really big mark on the genre in some way. Right? Either an innovation in the kinds of books we're reading, an innovation in the way that are publishing books, and innovation in the way that we are thinking about tropes or characters or. Right, Whatever. And so we really then sort of started to make a list of, like, well, who are the people we would love to have on and hear about, like, those same sets of Questions, Right. Your romance journey. What made you a reader? What are your, you know, what were you trying to do? Did it work at first? And one of the first people on our list was Ruby Dixon.
- [02:33]
Sarah MacLean
Because for all the reasons, those of you who listened to our Ice Planet Barbarians deep dive, you know that we, we really do believe that Ice Planet Barbarians left an indelible mark and is currently leaving a mark on the genre. So this was a really fun conversation, which you're about to hear. And then of course, as usual, with our trailblazer episodes, we'll come back around and talk at the end about what we took away. So here we go with Ruby. Welcome. Ruby Dixon, thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited to have the creator of Ice Planet Barbarians with us. We are really excited to get into it and learn more about how this all came to be. But in fade of mates fashion, let's go back and talk about how you came to romance as a reader, as a writer, however you sort of think about that.
- [03:33]
Ruby Dixon
I came to romance, I was always the big reader. So a little backstory about little Ruby Dixon. When I was five, I was diagnosed with idiopathic scoliosis. So most children get scoliosis when they are hitting puberty. I got it at age 5 and it was severe enough that I had to wear a back brace 23 hours a day. Oh. And so my mother was always very worried about me. So I was the kid that would, you know, while your brother's playing peewee football or whatever, I would sit on the sidelines and I would read books. And I loved reading. So I was a voracious reader, voracious library kid. And I grew up reading. I feel like Ann McCaffrey was very formative for me, my very own.
- [04:27]
Sarah MacLean
Surprising.
- [04:27]
Jennifer Prokop
I was like, this totally checks out. It was either that or an alien crashed in your backyard and you dug up a tentacle. Could have gone either way.
- [04:35]
Ruby Dixon
I also love. My mom loved, like Silver Age science fiction. So we had like the old fantasy and sci fi magazines. Oh, yeah, Fun old Edgar Rice Burroughs books. Andre Norton. And as I think about all those, those were all like, very, very prolific writers, like, where they were constantly having books out. So maybe that's one thing that influenced me that I didn't realize. And then as I hit around 12, I was looking for something to read and my mom was like, well, I have Clan of the Cave Bear, but you can't read. Can't read the second book. And I was like, okay, cool.
- [05:12]
Sarah MacLean
And I read the first book, the One that's really sexy.
- [05:15]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah. Yes. The first one.
- [05:16]
Sarah MacLean
I feel like the first one.
- [05:17]
Ruby Dixon
The first one. The first one has some pretty handsome eye opening scenes. Yes. But I loved it. And it left off on a cliffhanger. And I was like, well, screw that, I gotta read book two. And so I.
- [05:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Good job, mom. That's totally. I'm not going to read book two.
- [05:34]
Sarah MacLean
No worries. What a cool though.
- [05:37]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. And I was like, oh. And she, and she caught me reading it. She's like, oh, well, book three is right next to it, so go ahead and grab it from there. It was just like, I visited a cousin who was a, it was an older cousin and she was a big romance reader and she was like, you know, while you're on vacation, grab any of my books that you want. So I looked for the ones that had like the little zebra heart and the. And if it had that. And there was like a cowboy on the COVID pulling somebody's clothes off. I was like, it all goes in the bag. So many books. And so that was like really eye opening to me after reading like all this old school sci fi fantasy. These were all stories about women in these historical time frames because it was all historical medieval. Bertrice Small was writing like the harem fantasies.
- [06:32]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh yeah.
- [06:33]
Sarah MacLean
Sky o' Nelley Singing My Song.
- [06:35]
Ruby Dixon
They were all really big dig into historical accuracy. Except for Julie Garwood. But we'll, we'll allow it because she's Julie Garwood.
- [06:43]
Sarah MacLean
Sure.
- [06:44]
Jennifer Prokop
But I mean, what's not accurate about EL Kincade and his plaid and people
- [06:50]
Ruby Dixon
throwing jewels at a pile on the Grandchurry? Scotland, right? Yes, Ruby. But at the time I was like, ruby, I know, I know so much about Scotland right now. I could tell you anything. Ask me anything. You know they play golf, like just
- [07:04]
Sarah MacLean
all learned from romance novels.
- [07:07]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah. And I loved it. It was like fantasy of a different sport, but it was female facing fantasy. And so from that point on I was just like gone. And so when I started writing, it was never a question of like, oh, are you going to write romance? It's like, of course there's going to be romance in it. It's not necessarily 100% romance. There might be like some other storylines in there, but there's, there's gonna be a romance in here. Because that's like, that's the spice, that's the fun.
- [07:38]
Sarah MacLean
So let's talk about that. So you are. So you're in high school, you're reading all of these old school historicals.
- [07:46]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [07:47]
Sarah MacLean
And then at what point does young Ruby think to herself, like, I'm gonna try my hand at this.
- [07:55]
Ruby Dixon
Oh, it wasn't till I was post high school, post college, didn't really, didn't really go to college because I grew up, family did not have money. It was like, if you're gonna go to college, you're gonna get a job and you're gonna pay for.
- [08:09]
Sarah MacLean
Where did you grow up?
- [08:11]
Ruby Dixon
I grew up in dfw, Texas. So my family is like, my parents both worked retail all their lives, never had money. And so it was just expected that, like, all my friends were like, oh, we're gonna go off to college. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna get a job at Kmart. And you know, or. And then anybody that's been in that situation, like, you take a year off and you're like, I'm gonna work. And then the next thing you know is like, you have a car note, you have credit cards, and you're like, oh, I can't just, you know, go to college. I, I, I'm tired. So I went through a couple of different jobs and I ended up getting, I like a phone pool to like, an office job. And it was a well paying office job. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so lucky to have this job. I hate it with every fiber of my being. And it felt like I was trapped. And I was like, because it was very well paying. And I was like, oh. I was like, do I want to do this for the rest of my life or what's my plan B? And I thought my plan B is either I need to go to college at night and get a degree in something practical like accounting or whatever. Yeah, accounting was what I was going to do. And I was like, maybe it'd be different if I was my own boss. And, and I was like, okay. Going to school. All my credits just expired. I would probably need like six, seven years of going to school at night and working full time. I was like, or maybe I'll just write a novel. And I was like, maybe that'll be, you know, a better way to go about it.
- [09:51]
Sarah MacLean
Clearly. I was gonna say very easy.
- [09:54]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah, super easy. Just put that out. Yeah. And I started. I had always kind of written as a teenager. And then I, I think I saw, I saw a movie last. The Mohicans. Mohicans.
- [10:06]
Jennifer Prokop
Stay Alive no Matter What Occurs.
- [10:09]
Ruby Dixon
I loved like 90 I will find you.
- [10:12]
Jennifer Prokop
Sorry. Let's all just take a moment. Okay? I'm fine.
- [10:14]
Sarah MacLean
Yes. For hot, young.
- [10:15]
Ruby Dixon
Beautiful movie. The most beautiful movie with beautiful people. And I absolutely hated the ending.
- [10:21]
Sarah MacLean
Of course you did. Because it's written by a man.
- [10:24]
Ruby Dixon
Like, yes. Alice and Uncus, like, should have been together at the end. Have a parallel romance storyline. Like, come on. And it was just. I was like. I was so mad at the ending, and I was like, well, I could do better than that. And so I was like, I'm going to write something. And I started writing, and everybody that starts writing, once you get, like, 15,000 words in, you realize, oh, this is not easy. No, I need a middle. Yes. Yes. Oh, the. The initial thrill has died down, and now it's work. And it took me, like, two years to finish that first book, and it was dreadful. And there was like. Like, if they were. They were traveling in this story because it was a big travelogue, you know, like, everybody to read in their romance. Just people constantly wandering.
- [11:15]
Sarah MacLean
So much research just in. Yes.
- [11:19]
Ruby Dixon
And I was like, if you're gonna wander, I really want the reader to feel it. So there's gonna be, like, pages and pages of just endless wandering. So you really get in the. In the moment. And it was. It was awful. It still lives under my bed somewhere.
- [11:35]
Sarah MacLean
Terrible.
- [11:38]
Ruby Dixon
But you finish that, and you're like, oh, oh, I can write a book. Like, that's. That's really cool. And so I think I wrote, like, three or four, getting progressively faster before I decided to query. And I queried my. My, like, fourth or fifth book. And I think I got an agent after, like, a couple of years, and then it took a couple more years to sell. And then I started writing professionally for New York. Not enough to quit the job that I hated. It was. It was income, and it was something that I enjoyed doing. And then. And when would this have been?
- [12:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, in time? Like, 20.
- [12:19]
Ruby Dixon
I want to say tens?
- [12:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, what, like, 2000, 2000s?
- [12:24]
Ruby Dixon
Six, I think, is when I got my first agent. And so my first book came out, like, in 2009 or 2010. And that was several names ago. And, like, anybody that's been in New York has been like, okay, this book didn't land. Let's try another name. Yeah, well, so can I. Let's try another name. And Ruby is actually my fourth name.
- [12:46]
Sarah MacLean
Are you able to talk about, like, the. The Mrs. The kind of wit which were the books? What were you writing that just, you know, didn't work? You know, because we have Jane and Krentz, for example, on the. On the show. And she talks a lot about how, like, she's been through so many pen names because there are ebbs. There are flows and then you know, a genre dies or like a book doesn't land and then suddenly it's a new. You have to try again. You have to keep persevering.
- [13:15]
Ruby Dixon
Right. The first one that came out was just did not land. I don't know if it was like it was urban fantasy when urban fantasy was kind of blowing up. But it was very romantic urban fantasy.
- [13:26]
Sarah MacLean
So like late, like mid to late aughts.
- [13:29]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, yes. And it had like a sexy guy cover, you know, Even though was a female focused romance urban fantasy, I guess we'd call it Romanasy at this point. And the publisher was like gung ho behind it, printed a hundred thousand copies and like 95,000 came back so that it was over before it started. That was a big eye opener.
- [14:02]
Sarah MacLean
And then they were like that's not your fault. That's a publisher who printed too many books. Right.
- [14:09]
Ruby Dixon
Well. And they had buy in. So the thing with the publisher is, is they go out and they're like we're. And I think this is what a lot of indies don't understand is like why do publishers print so many books? Because they go to Walmart. They're like we're excited about this book. Look how pretty it is. How many do you want? And Walmart's like we love it, let's have 20,000. And they go to Target. Target's like we love it, let's get 20,000. And so you have all these stores that are like we all want so many of this book. And then you put it out and like people just look at it and they're like nope. And just keep on going. So it's not the publisher's fault for printing that many. It's somebody upstairs was like, oh, this is gonna sell. And you get it to the storefront and it's like oh no, it doesn't sell. And I don't know. Yeah, a lot of reasons behind it. Nobody knows.
- [14:58]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean it's right, right.
- [14:59]
Sarah MacLean
Mystery.
- [15:00]
Ruby Dixon
So I don't really blame anyone other than like it was, it was my first published book. Looking back, it was kind of a weird baby. So maybe it was a little too weird. And. And that's, that's a thing with me recurringly. It's like maybe I'm a little too weird every now and then. Which, whatever.
- [15:17]
Sarah MacLean
Okay, so urban fantasy is a no.
- [15:21]
Ruby Dixon
So then it was. I went to more paranormal romance. Different name, different Paranormal romance. First one did really, really well. Had like five or six printings right off the gate. And then it got caught up in when Simon and Schuster was feuding with Barnes and Noble and my book had came out. My second book in the series was supposed to like really blow up. And it got. It never left the storeroom.
- [15:48]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, no.
- [15:50]
Ruby Dixon
I want to say all of those came back.
- [15:53]
Sarah MacLean
And when you say. I just want to probe a little. And again, sure. When you say paranormal, are we talking creatures like shifters?
- [16:03]
Ruby Dixon
Shifters, okay, yes. Shifters and vampires and things like that. Yes.
- [16:09]
Sarah MacLean
I'm trying to piece out like what's the DNA here.
- [16:12]
Ruby Dixon
Right.
- [16:12]
Sarah MacLean
Of a Ruby Dixon book.
- [16:14]
Ruby Dixon
So. And that I do think would have done better. But it was timing. It was timing. Right. Right book, wrong time. So I still look fondly at those. Like, yeah, I was doing. I was doing something right there. And then I went to a different publisher and they were like, well, you're writing paranormal for them. Can you write same vein, like contemporary, ish sorts of things. And I was like, yeah, I can do that. Like, I'll do whatever you want. Pay me, you know.
- [16:42]
Sarah MacLean
How many, I'm sorry, at this point, how many books have have you written at that point?
- [16:47]
Ruby Dixon
Probably seven or eight.
- [16:50]
Sarah MacLean
So they know that you can write. They know that like, and you can produce. And how many years are we talking about at this point?
- [16:57]
Ruby Dixon
Probably like three or four. Like, I'm, I'm pretty fast. Like whenever I would get a contract with somebody, I'm like, you know, I've got extra books in me. Like just put in coach, you know, I will perform.
- [17:12]
Jennifer Prokop
This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Little, Brown and Company, publishers of Ellen Hildebrand's 30 novels, including this one, the Academy, with her daughter Shelby Cunningham.
- [17:26]
Sarah MacLean
So it's move in day at Tiffin Academy and amidst, amidst all of the happy chaos of friends reuniting, there is a sort of sense of real satisfaction among this campus of the New England's popular boarding school. It has jumped 17 points on the best boarding schools in the country list and is now number two. So everybody's kind of like patting themselves on the back because there's absolutely no reason for this to be number two. At least nobody ever thought it would be. The dorms need to be renovated. Everybody's a little more social than they are academic, but like people are feeling pretty great. Problem is there's a brand new blind item app that everybody loves. And immediately after the announcement is made that Tiffin is number two on the list, a bunch of blind items start to come out that are pretty scandalous. Everybody is a mark. There are international Influencers, queen bees, young history teachers, transfer students with secrets, and of course, the admissions director, who's got a little bit of a weird methodology for who she likes to let into Tiffin. Everyone has something to hide.
- [18:42]
Ruby Dixon
All.
- [18:43]
Sarah MacLean
All of these secrets are being revealed. This is a book that, like, if you liked Prep or Gossip Girl, this is definitely going to be for you. This is like the click. It really feels like Ellen Hildebrand knows how to write a really buzzy take on something. This is going to be a real take on boarding school. And I'm excited.
- [19:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. So the Academy is new in paperback this month and you can read it to get ready for the return to Tiffin Academy this September with Thoroughbred. So if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book in print, ebook, or audio. Thanks to Little, Brown and company for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [19:30]
Sarah MacLean
This is right around the time historically, like that end of the odds. Beginning of the tens, when publishers were trying to do, like, monthly releases. So they would say, like, we want to buy this series. We want you to write all three. And then we'll put, we'll publish them June, July, August.
- [19:45]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [19:46]
Sarah MacLean
Were you in this mix?
- [19:48]
Ruby Dixon
My first series. So they did book one and book two, and they both printed like, like 100 grand and 120 grand of book two, which I was like, why would you do that? And they both, like, flopped spectacularly. Then after that, it was just like, no. So that was the only back to back that I really had. But when I went to the other publisher, it was more like, okay, we're going to do contemporary. And I, I did several different types of contemporary romance for them and basically what they were asking for because I had a really good relationship with my editor, Cindy Huang. Love her, have worked with her for a really long time and she's always been very supportive. And then I guess I'd been doing that for a while and I was kind of like, okay, you know, this is. I'm a paycheck player, as I like to say, who isn't Ruby. It was like Jerry Maguire when they said that you show up for your check and that's all it is. And that was fine because it beat working in an office, but.
- [21:02]
Sarah MacLean
And you were fast and you had the ideas.
- [21:05]
Ruby Dixon
I'm good at hitting deadlines, like, so everything like a New York publisher could ask for. But I wasn't really getting super anywhere. I would have one book that would do fine, it would do great. And then, like, it would just kind of taper off. So. And my husband is convinced that it's because they were throttling the weirdness.
- [21:26]
Sarah MacLean
The weird. I mean, it seems like he might be. Right. Keep going.
- [21:30]
Ruby Dixon
Right, right. So around 2015, I had been self publishing like some stuff that was under my main. My. My bed, my manuscript bed for a while because I was still writing faster than what New York wanted. And in 2015, Amazon came out with Kindle Unlimited. And I was like, oh, I want to try that, but I do have a lot of New York books and I don't want people immediately coming in back and being like, I can't read this one. I have to pay for this one. So I was like, I'm gonna make another name. Because smart. I just love names. And that's so smart.
- [22:10]
Sarah MacLean
And yeah, I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of people who were doing it, but you are probably the first person we've had on who like admits that this is.
- [22:17]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do this. If you see Ruby Dixon, you know, it's in Kindle Unlimited. And I had a couple of author buddies and we were like, let's all make names and we'll cross promote each other. And so we came up with like the club. The most generic name ever. But write for a bunch of writers.
- [22:35]
Jennifer Prokop
It's especially funny, right? Club, like your writers. You could have come up with something amazing.
- [22:40]
Ruby Dixon
Right, right. No, it was just the club. And it was me and a friend that was going to go by Ella Good. And Katie Wilde. And eventually we pulled in a friend, Alexa Riley. And so we were like, we're each going to put out a novella every week. And then. Oh my God. Katie would put out one, Ella would put out one, I would put out one, and then we would just, just cycle back. That was very ambitious.
- [23:05]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, but not happen that way for long.
- [23:09]
Sarah MacLean
But Alexa Riley, I mean, they write really fast.
- [23:12]
Ruby Dixon
They do. And then you got two brains in there.
- [23:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:15]
Sarah MacLean
You also write pretty fast. And yes. I mean, I feel like all of you do. But a weekly schedule is.
- [23:21]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, yes. Well, it was like you can, you know, it's only 10 to 15,000 words. Like, you're pop.
- [23:26]
Sarah MacLean
You're popping up once and they're super sexy. That's the deal, right? You're like, we're gonna do high heat.
- [23:30]
Ruby Dixon
Easy, easy.
- [23:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Everyone at home is not really getting the full Ruby Dickinson experience because there's a lot of like, eye rolling and like air quotes. I just want you to know it's all delightful hand talker, for sure. Me too. Me, too.
- [23:42]
Ruby Dixon
No, I love it. I love it.
- [23:44]
Sarah MacLean
Are you. So were the books at In Traditional also High Heat?
- [23:51]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. Did you.
- [23:52]
Sarah MacLean
So you were like, I like writing these kind of scripts.
- [23:56]
Ruby Dixon
I was like, for the time challenge. I love a challenge, too. I'm like, let's see if I can throw anal in this one and see if I could say anything. I'm like, cindy notices the editor is like. She is. I love her to death. She is the horniest person I've ever met. So nothing is too feisty for her. Put it on her tombstone. That's right. Here lies Cindy. Man, she was horny, so. And I love you, Cindy, if you hear this. But she knows. She knows. So I started writing as Ruby, and I was writing motorcycle club stuff because we were like, what's popular right now? Let's get that money. Was motorcycle club. Do I know anything about motorcycle clubs?
- [24:43]
Jennifer Prokop
No one knows anything about anything in romance.
- [24:46]
Ruby Dixon
I've seen a couple gifts. Gifts of Sons of Anarchy, you know,
- [24:51]
Jennifer Prokop
you were driving down the freeway and a motorcycle went by you. It's fine.
- [24:54]
Ruby Dixon
Right? I live in Texas. I'm sure it's all, you know, completely above board, totally not racist in the slightest, you know, And I wrote, like, a couple of those. And my whole motorcycle club thing was that they were going to be two guys. One girl, male, female, Male. So every guy had a partner that he would ride with and then he would ride with.
- [25:21]
Sarah MacLean
I was gonna say the swords cross.
- [25:23]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. Yes. Although people got really mad about that.
- [25:26]
Sarah MacLean
I. When this is 2015, this is right when it starts to get, okay, that swords cross.
- [25:31]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. And I was like, do you think they're just holding hands? Yeah.
- [25:36]
Sarah MacLean
They're not touching. No touching.
- [25:37]
Ruby Dixon
Right, right. So. And I did hit a wall with those. I was like, you can only do so much, you know, with this very. This very specific setup that I have created for myself. And between that and, like, the New York books where I was like, yeah, okay, I'll write another, like, feel good holiday book. Sure.
- [25:58]
Sarah MacLean
You know, don't get those confused.
- [26:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Right, right.
- [26:03]
Ruby Dixon
And it was just. I don't know if that was when Trump was first getting into office. Maybe that might have had something to do with it. And I was like, I just. I was feeling tapped. And so I was like, you know, I love writing, but I'm not loving it right now. I need to do something to make myself love it again. And this is the longest origin story, by the way.
- [26:28]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, I love every second of it.
- [26:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Everybody keep Going, this is gonna be a seven hour episode and it's gonna be fine. We're gonna build in bathroom breaks, reading breaks, maybe even intervention. Everybody stop. Go read something. Come back. It's fine. Keep going, keep going.
- [26:42]
Ruby Dixon
And I was like, I was like, okay, what do I want to write? And I had been reading. This was back before science fiction romance really started to hit. And I read a couple of authors that were. Okay, little preface. There was a little bit of science fiction romance back in the day through Elora's Cave.
- [27:07]
Sarah MacLean
Of course.
- [27:09]
Ruby Dixon
We all remember them. Yes.
- [27:10]
Sarah MacLean
Well, we don't all, but okay, we all do.
- [27:13]
Jennifer Prokop
We.
- [27:14]
Sarah MacLean
The three.
- [27:14]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [27:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh my God. Remember those J books? Like what were.
- [27:19]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, wait, the ones. Sorry, keep going.
- [27:23]
Ruby Dixon
Like Evangeline Anderson had.
- [27:26]
Sarah MacLean
Who was the one who did all the like shifters were made in a lab?
- [27:30]
Ruby Dixon
Lauren Donner.
- [27:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, Lauren Donner. You love those.
- [27:33]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, yes. So there was some science fiction romance like Evangeline Anderson. Jade. Jade Black. Like Lauren Donner had a cyborg series.
- [27:49]
Sarah MacLean
She had so many books.
- [27:50]
Ruby Dixon
And I had read like everything. And I was like, there's not enough
- [27:55]
Sarah MacLean
of this because for. For listeners who don't remember the like, like Deep Magic, the Alloris Kate. When Kindles came out, when like E readers came out and those of us who are high volume readers bought Kindles, there was a limit to what you could put on them. I mean there.
- [28:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Now you're like swimming in books, but back then you're like, I don't know what's out there.
- [28:18]
Sarah MacLean
But like so Eloris Cave was there and those were books that were. Those writers were prolific and when you. They wrote almost as fast as we read. And so you know, Lawrence Cave got
- [28:30]
Ruby Dixon
pricey too because it was like, oh, you want this 40 page novella? 6.99 please.
- [28:35]
Sarah MacLean
And I was like, remember that?
- [28:37]
Ruby Dixon
Well, okay, if I must.
- [28:39]
Sarah MacLean
My divesting my entire paycheck into.
- [28:42]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, yes, but they were making bank. But I read everything. I had read everything. And like I would like go to the science fiction romance category and scroll by new releases and look for anything there and there would be something that would trickle in and every once in a while it would be okay, but it wouldn't scratch the itch. And I read Arley Smith and Arlie Smith is an indie faceless entity. It's R the initial Lee L E E And they. I don't know if it's a she or they. I'm going to try and do. They. They wrote very epically long fanfic y feeling science fiction slash dark fantasy Books. Okay. And they were grim for Elora's Cave.
- [29:35]
Sarah MacLean
I'm sorry, for Allora's Cave.
- [29:37]
Jennifer Prokop
Or.
- [29:37]
Ruby Dixon
No, no, no, not Alora's Cave. Past Dolores Cave. Just self published.
- [29:41]
Sarah MacLean
Okay.
- [29:42]
Ruby Dixon
And they, like, broke my brain. I was like, this is the weirdest stuff, and I love it.
- [29:48]
Sarah MacLean
And was it. It aliens? Was it.
- [29:50]
Ruby Dixon
There were aliens, there were bug men, there were interesting, like, just very cracky feeling. And like, this was somebody that had never been told, you can't write that. And I love that. They were all very, very dark. Millions of trigger warnings if anybody goes to pick them up. Millions of trigger warnings. And I absolutely.
- [30:13]
Sarah MacLean
Were they sexy?
- [30:15]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, some of them.
- [30:16]
Sarah MacLean
But not. They could have been more sexy. I'm sensing from your face. Right, okay.
- [30:22]
Ruby Dixon
And like, I wouldn't tell anybody to go in reading for Spice. I would say go in reading for the Bonkers.
- [30:33]
Sarah MacLean
And.
- [30:34]
Ruby Dixon
And I was like, oh, you know, nobody told this person they can't write this. And I love that about them. And so I was like, I'm gonna go back and I'm just gonna write something that is purely spun out of whatever I have in this old file over here. And because I had read a lot of science fiction and fantasy and historical growing up, I was like, I'm gonna pull back on all those and pull in things that I enjoy and that I would love to see in one of these science fiction romances. And I think that's kind of where Ice Planet Barbarians came from. I had an idea and I was like, like, I'm gonna do. The characters that live on this planet are gonna have a symbiont where they have to have this parasite that helps them live here. And initially it was gonna be like a superhero parasite, and it was gonna make them, like, fly and be super strong. And then I was like, nah, that's kind of stupid. So it changes as you start writing, though, and you realize, oh, I can do this, and, oh, I can do this. And I also really enjoyed cereals at the time. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to try and write this as a serial.
- [31:44]
Sarah MacLean
Wait, pause. Because now you've just, like, activated an old memory of mine because I had forgotten about serials.
- [31:52]
Ruby Dixon
It came out in six parts.
- [31:53]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was happening at that time.
- [31:56]
Jennifer Prokop
Remember that one Crestley book that came out in threes or whatever? Oh, yeah, the Professional or whatever the first one was.
- [32:04]
Ruby Dixon
I think for a hot minute, people really liked cereals because I knew people that had like.
- [32:10]
Sarah MacLean
But they were shorter.
- [32:11]
Ruby Dixon
They were like, 20, 15, 20 was this around the time of. What was it?
- [32:15]
Jennifer Prokop
Radish.
- [32:15]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [32:16]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, wasn't there like a.
- [32:17]
Ruby Dixon
No, I think Radish was after that. I think the reason why there were so many cereals that were coming out was because it was all about money. Kindle Unlimited was like Kindle Unlimited 1.0. And this is like, this is how the sausage is made. I don't know.
- [32:32]
Sarah MacLean
This is so useful.
- [32:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Okay.
- [32:36]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [32:36]
Ruby Dixon
And what it was was that if you opened a book on Kindle Unlimited and you got to 10%, you were paid for the full price of the read. And so when you would, people would write shorter books and then just release a lot of them because you would get paid the full price.
- [32:54]
Sarah MacLean
And then there was also the bonus. The bonuses were happening to them.
- [32:59]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, well, that happened afterwards.
- [33:02]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, so explain every. Explain to people about the bonuses.
- [33:05]
Ruby Dixon
Right. Kindle 1.0, Kindle Ltd. 1.0. People would then create like a serial quote, serial that would be like 10 pages long. So you open the book, you get 10%, and they're like, read on for part two. And so Amazon was like, we can't do this anymore. So they did Amazon, I guess they did Kindle 2.0, where you got paid by pages read. And that's when people started doing the stuffing.
- [33:33]
Sarah MacLean
Yes.
- [33:33]
Ruby Dixon
Oh, no, I meant stories.
- [33:36]
Sarah MacLean
That too. There was a whole, like, scandal around stuffing. But then. But in Kindle 1.0, if you got a bonus, if you were the top read author in a category. Right. Every month they do.
- [33:49]
Ruby Dixon
They have done bonuses for a while. They change how the bonuses were. Right. They did do that too, I think.
- [33:54]
Sarah MacLean
And that was the other reason why serials work. Because people would download all of the books.
- [33:59]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [34:00]
Sarah MacLean
And that would make you more likely to be in the top 10 authors of the month or whatever.
- [34:05]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [34:05]
Sarah MacLean
And I remember friends telling me, and I don't know if you, if you can, can confirm this, but I remember somebody telling me, like, she was number one in one of those early categories one month and she got a 75, 000 bonus.
- [34:20]
Ruby Dixon
Okay, I never got that.
- [34:22]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, you're like, excuse me.
- [34:24]
Sarah MacLean
I mean, but this was early days.
- [34:26]
Ruby Dixon
Sure. And they were throwing money at things to make them happen. And you know, I will say a lot of things about Amazon, had issues with, like, their system. And everybody I've ever worked with at Amazon has been super professional. So, like, it is a corporation. I. You have to keep that in mind. Like 100% of the time, they're going to do what's best for their corporation, not what's Best for you, Peggy sue. The author.
- [34:53]
Jennifer Prokop
This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Lucy Score, author of Mistakes Were Made, the second in her story Ladies Lake series.
- [35:02]
Sarah MacLean
So our heroine here, Zoe Moody, is very down on her luck. She is broke. She has been kicked out of her New York City apartment building. She is really having a difficult time as a literary agent, and she is in Story Lake under duress. She's there because she does.
- [35:24]
Ruby Dixon
No.
- [35:24]
Sarah MacLean
She no longer has an apartment in New York City. And her one client, the only one who has been loyal to her, her best friend Hazel, needs to finish her romance novel. And hopefully they're going to turn this romance novel into pure gold for both of them. And then Zoe can get the heck out of Story Lake and this tiny small town, which she cannot stand, and head back to New York. Problem is, in walks handsome, like, sexy lawyer Gage Bishop, who is. Is smart and serious and very ready to settle down. Gage is looking for a wife, and he is looking for children, and he is looking for the next stage of his life. And Zoe is the most beautiful woman he has ever met, but it is clear that they are completely wrong for each other. She is allergic to commitment. He is looking for a wife. She is afraid of animals. He lives in a literal barn. But when he has one night where he is rocked by a devastating family secret, he turns to the only woman he's wanted for a long time. And they have one night to forget everything. But as you know, Jen, one night.
- [36:33]
Jennifer Prokop
No. One night's never enough, Sarah. So if you would like to find out what happens, then you should check out Mistakes Were Made. It is available in print, audiobook, and ebook, and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. Thanks to Lucy Score for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [36:52]
Sarah MacLean
So at this point, you're still writing traditional for New York. You are sort of burnt out. You want to write something that's like, just pure id, right? Like, open a vein and Ruby Dixon comes out.
- [37:05]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [37:06]
Sarah MacLean
So you have this idea and are you instantly like, this is an indie idea? Like, I. This is Ruby Dixon.
- [37:14]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. I was like. I called up Katie and I was like, katie, I was like, I need you to make me a cover. Here's this. Here is the stock photo I want to use. I need you to make this man blue. And. And I was like. And I'm gonna call it Ice Planet Barbarians. And. Because that is the most on the nose.
- [37:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [37:35]
Ruby Dixon
Like Pulp Fiction, sort of. I can think of. I was like, this will weed out the science fiction bros. Yeah.
- [37:43]
Jennifer Prokop
Because, yeah, right, sure. Good point.
- [37:46]
Ruby Dixon
Everything I did was like, these men are not my target audience. I need to make sure to repel them. Yes, yes. So when I put it up, I put like, ice plant of our bearings. I put a sci fi romance novella because sci fi. Yeah. Is a term that SFF readers hate.
- [38:05]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh.
- [38:06]
Ruby Dixon
Because it's. It's considered the wrong sort of short shorthand. They like SFF or they like science fiction or they like speculative fiction, but they didn't like sci fi. And I was like, I buy romance.
- [38:21]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. You're like, let me just. Yeah, like, yeah, nice.
- [38:23]
Ruby Dixon
Let me throw in all the things that say this is not for you. I was like, this will either fail spectacularly or somebody else is going to be like, yes, finally somebody's writing this weird alien stuff that, you know, that I've been looking for. And the first one did. The first part of the serial did okay. And then the next one got a little bit more. And the next one got a little bit more. By the time I hit the sixth one, which was the finale, it was hitting the top 100 in Kindle.
- [38:53]
Sarah MacLean
I'm sorry, can you just. So you're saying the first Ice Planet Barbarians. Not what we think of as ice Planet barbarians. The book was six parts.
- [39:03]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, it was six parts.
- [39:04]
Sarah MacLean
Okay. I don't. I did not read it in parts. I. The first time I read it, it was a whole thing.
- [39:10]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah. And I did book two in parts also. And then by the time I got to book three, I had been getting enough emails from people that were like, please skip doing the parts thing.
- [39:20]
Sarah MacLean
Let me pay you $6.
- [39:22]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. Yes. They were like, well, I want to read it all now. And I was like, oh, okay.
- [39:27]
Sarah MacLean
So.
- [39:28]
Ruby Dixon
So book three onward was just like a full book.
- [39:31]
Sarah MacLean
And now can we talk about the writing? I'm sorry I keep cutting you off, but can we talk about the writing of serials? Are. Were you writing and publishing, like, fix style or were you, like, writing the whole thing and then separating it out?
- [39:46]
Ruby Dixon
What was.
- [39:47]
Sarah MacLean
What was the process there?
- [39:49]
Ruby Dixon
I wrote like each section and I was like, oh, that's a fun little cliffhanger. And then just publish. Yeah. Yes.
- [39:55]
Sarah MacLean
Amazing.
- [39:57]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah. I. And I do love serials. I read a lot of comic books growing up too. So I think if you read a lot of serial type fiction, you start to learn where the beats are, that you can kind of like pause it here or where this would be a good stop to get people to come back again. And I still enjoy serial fiction. Like, I still do a serial like on my website or whatever, every now and then, because I enjoy that day to day. Let's check in and see what the next chapter is. Fanfic. Fanfic is real big on serial sorts of things. Like you might read a completed fanfic and you're like, why does this drag on for so many chapters? It's because they're feeding people day to day or week to week little bits of this story.
- [40:40]
Sarah MacLean
So do you. We just did a deep dive of Ice Planet Barbarians on the, on the podcast and we read obviously the whole book. Where was the first cut? Do you remember the first cut?
- [40:53]
Ruby Dixon
I want to say it was when she, she runs into Vectal, so we
- [41:00]
Sarah MacLean
get all the way to him and then we cut.
- [41:03]
Ruby Dixon
Perfect.
- [41:03]
Sarah MacLean
Okay.
- [41:04]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah.
- [41:06]
Jennifer Prokop
You know, it's funny, I was just looking back, I started in romance, reviewing for the book Queen, and it was in, In September of 2017, I,
- [41:18]
Ruby Dixon
I
- [41:18]
Jennifer Prokop
reviewed another like, sci fi kind of romance that I didn't really enjoy that much. And then at the end I was like, if you're looking for something, you should try this Ice Planet Barbarian series. And I actually like, sort of explain it a little bit. Like, here's what it's about. And it seems wild to me to think that there was ever a time where I couldn't say Ice Planet Barbarians and everyone already knew what it was was right. That I would be like, hey, listen, if you're looking for something more like this, you might try and let me tell you what it is.
- [41:48]
Sarah MacLean
And that's.
- [41:49]
Jennifer Prokop
But it was right? I mean, September 2017, people knew it, but it wasn't like what happened after Tik Tok.
- [41:57]
Ruby Dixon
It was considered super weird.
- [41:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [41:59]
Sarah MacLean
Well, I feel like, was it Tik Tok though? Because I feel like it blew up before Tik Tok.
- [42:04]
Ruby Dixon
It was, it was very healthy before talk.
- [42:07]
Sarah MacLean
Like, at what point. Point do you sort of wake up in the morning and go, holy, I have done a thing here?
- [42:14]
Ruby Dixon
I, I still don't get that.
- [42:16]
Sarah MacLean
No.
- [42:16]
Ruby Dixon
So I know, but I never do.
- [42:19]
Sarah MacLean
Really. So you. There was never a moment where you were like, oh my God, people are really into this. Like, this is.
- [42:26]
Ruby Dixon
No, I guess because I grew up reading like the Crestley Cole is a huge, like, inspiration for me. And she had like this, this big long series of like, here are these individual stories. They're all batshit crazy, you know, and, and fun. Have a good time, come back for the next one. And so I really appreciate that model. And so to me, that's, that's just what I'm doing, like, here's a crazy story set in this world. Yeah. Come back to the next one, you know, and like, to me, it's never felt like it was a thing. Like it was, was. It was good in its little segment of the universe.
- [43:07]
Sarah MacLean
This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Lumi Gummies. Consistent, mellow, and super delicious, Lume Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day de stressor, a midday mood boost or help getting the best sleep ever, Lume Gummies has a strain that's wrong right for you.
- [43:27]
Jennifer Prokop
So we have been experiencing some very unsettled weather here in Chicago. And I have been having a really hard time sleeping.
- [43:33]
Sarah MacLean
Right?
- [43:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, just like, there's thunder and lightning and, you know, just like the temperatures all over the place. And I have just really found that this has been a week where I have been really leaning into Luma gummies to help me sleep. You know, so if I go to sleep and fall asleep and it's great, then fine. But if I wake up in the middle of the night, it's just like a way that I can like, just like pop a gummy and then just like kind of fall back asleep, sleep and then like still wake up in the morning and, and feel like, kind of refreshed as opposed to feeling like, you know, like, oh, my God, I, you know, just overwhelmed by some other kind of medicine. So it's just been a really great time for me to just, like, remember how helpful that can be when I have that, like, I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm wide awake and in this case, it's the weather. Sometimes it's just like anxiety or worrying about the world. But I do find that this has been really a great time for me to. To lean back into the gummy.
- [44:24]
Sarah MacLean
Nice. Lumi Gummies are available nationwide. Go to lumigummies.com that's L-M I gummies.com and use code faded mates for 30% off your order. Again, that's L U M I gummies.com code faded mates lumigummies.com code faded mates. Thanks to Lumigummies for sponsoring this week's episode. In my mind, it feels like Ice Planet Barbarians was the first of the new wave of monster romance. Like, there it inspired a huge. A wide swath of authors to move toward monsters. And I separate that and we've talked about this on the podcast but one and tell us if this is wrong because that's part of why you're here is the sort of. Of there is paranormal that came before and then there is monster, which then came sort of on the backs of Ice Planet barbarians.
- [45:26]
Ruby Dixon
It felt.
- [45:27]
Sarah MacLean
And the heroes feel really different in them.
- [45:30]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [45:31]
Sarah MacLean
Right. Like you talked about Cressley, the first season of our podcast was a deep dive of immortals after dark. Lothaire would never be an Ice Planet barbarian.
- [45:41]
Ruby Dixon
No. Most monster romance heroes are golden retrievers slash simps.
- [45:46]
Sarah MacLean
So can you talk about that? We're always writing golden retrievers.
- [45:52]
Ruby Dixon
No, but I was like, I kind of wanted him to be like, oh, he's this really terrifying monster, looking like 7ft tall, glowing eyes, like he's an alien. This should be terrifying. And I wanted him to just be like, just the nicest. Like you're gentleman, you know, because when
- [46:14]
Sarah MacLean
we say gentlemen, he does eat her out, like right the second he meets her.
- [46:19]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. And like that is. That is like the litmus.
- [46:22]
Sarah MacLean
Thanks for your service.
- [46:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [46:25]
Ruby Dixon
And that is the part that everybody struggles with. They're like, oh, this is not consent. Well, she wakes up and she's pretty consensual. She's very like, you know what? This is fine. They're wrong.
- [46:34]
Sarah MacLean
We didn't struggle with that at all.
- [46:36]
Ruby Dixon
I wrote it from her point of view too, because I wanted you to. Oh, no, she's fine with this.
- [46:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [46:41]
Ruby Dixon
And like. And he makes it very clear, like if she like pushes him with her. Her foot, like, oh, he's. He backs off. He makes it very clear that whatever.
- [46:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [46:52]
Ruby Dixon
You're running the show here. So I tried to convey that, but I. I did get a lot of flack from that. I was like, should I take this out? Should I leave it in? I ended up leaving it in. And anytime you think like that as a writer now, I'm like, if you wonder about it, leave it in because is going to be the part that people remember.
- [47:11]
Sarah MacLean
That's a great piece of advice.
- [47:14]
Jennifer Prokop
So it was. Okay. So it was actually, you're right, like pretty popular right up into the tick tock time. Right.
- [47:20]
Ruby Dixon
Like our friend in Circles.
- [47:21]
Jennifer Prokop
In circles. Right. Our friend Danny Lacy had a whole Ice Planet pod right. Where she was doing a read along with every predated TikTok that. Predated TikTok. I mean, I felt like there was a kind of a wave of Ice Planet Barbarians readers. But then we have to admit that like, TikTok must have of put high octane fuel in the TikTok. Yeah.
- [47:42]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. And I had no idea it was
- [47:44]
Jennifer Prokop
happening until you open up your Kindle Unlimited, like, royalty statement or whatever, one month, and we're like, wait, I'm not on TikTok.
- [47:53]
Ruby Dixon
Because every once in a while, social media just becomes too much. And I was like, every once in
- [47:57]
Jennifer Prokop
a while, Every while, every new.
- [47:59]
Ruby Dixon
I know. And I had, like, gotten off of Twitter because Twitter was just toxic and like, make. I'm just gonna look at cat videos on Instagram and like, you know, live my life. And I would get. I would. I would check my book ranks every once in a while and I'm like, yeah, okay, you know, it's. It's where it normally is. Whatever. And then like Ice Planet Barbarians jumped into like the top 500 on Amazon after years and years of being years. Oh, how neat. And I was like, maybe it got mentioned somewhere. And then it jumped like, like 200. And then it jumped to like 100. And then it jumped to like number 10 in the store. And all the other little books were following behind it. And I was like, what's. What's going on? I don't understand. My mom. Oh, mom. My. My 70 something year old mom was like, honey, I think it's on the TikTok. What are you talking about? And she's like, I saw somebody mention that it was on Tik Tok. And so we both downloaded TikTok at lunch and we're looking for it. And I found a video and it was by a reader. And I think she writes now a Charlotte Swan. She writes monster romance, real super spicy. Oh. And she was like, you know, during the pandemic, she's like, ice Planet Barbarians was my cozy place. This is just what I would go to to escape. And I was like, oh, that's really sweet. And then I saw a bunch of other videos where they were like stitching her. And they were like, oh, my God, this was amazing. And it just kind of turned into this thing. And the book One hit number one in the store. And like, at one point there was like 12 ice planet barbarians in the top 100. And I was getting all kinds of bookstores, like, in my inbox, and they were like, we can't order your books because they're Amazon pods. And I was like, oh. So. And I saw lots of videos where, like, bookstores were like, people were coming in asking for the Blue Barbarian books. And they were like, no, no, we don't have them. So my agent reached out, she was like, hey, I just saw, you know, a TikTok about Ice Planet barbarians. She's like, do we want to reach out to your publisher and see if they want to do something.
- [50:14]
Sarah MacLean
This is Holly Root.
- [50:15]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. Holly Root. Love her the most, like, zen, sweetest person. I've been with her for, like, 15 years now.
- [50:25]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, so she was with you from the beginning, or you.
- [50:28]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [50:29]
Sarah MacLean
Okay.
- [50:29]
Ruby Dixon
She was actually, like, the third agent I had, but weird. Yeah.
- [50:34]
Sarah MacLean
Yes.
- [50:34]
Jennifer Prokop
Third time's the charm, ladies.
- [50:36]
Sarah MacLean
We always. We. Everybody lands at Holly.
- [50:39]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. And she's just delightful, and she knows the industry. She knows romance. And she was like, why don't we go to your publisher and see if maybe they're interested in doing something with Ice Planet?
- [50:53]
Sarah MacLean
So does your publisher know you are Ruby Dixon?
- [50:56]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [50:57]
Sarah MacLean
Okay.
- [50:58]
Ruby Dixon
Like I said, I've had a really good relationship with Cindy for a long time, and. But it was more like, oh, that's neat, you know? Yeah.
- [51:05]
Sarah MacLean
Because when you started, right, these were crazy.
- [51:09]
Ruby Dixon
Right? Right. And they were like, you know, that's nice. That's a. That's a Kindle Unlimited sort of thing.
- [51:15]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [51:15]
Jennifer Prokop
You know, and how the tide has turned.
- [51:18]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. Yes. And I was getting, like, all kinds of crazy industry people in my inbox. And so we went to Cindy, and I was like, cindy, I have, like, 12 books in the top 100. I was like, you better back up that money truck. And she was like, right, right, right.
- [51:40]
Sarah MacLean
Hey, perv, back up that money truck.
- [51:43]
Ruby Dixon
You know, and it was. Well, because it was also, like, it. This was my thing.
- [51:47]
Sarah MacLean
Like, say, no, this is your baby.
- [51:50]
Ruby Dixon
I'm still fine. You know, I don't need New York because I'm doing just fine on Kindle, and I have been doing just fine on Kindle for, like, five years.
- [52:00]
Sarah MacLean
And, like, let's just take a pause here, because I don't need New York.
- [52:05]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [52:05]
Sarah MacLean
This is a transformational time in publishing. I mean, I. I just want to say, like, everybody knows that, like, we brought Ruby on because we're doing this new series of, like, modern trailblazers. And I feel like you just said the thing that really does set you is a hallmark of your time of publishing. Like, yes, I don't need New York as a thing. No one said before. Right around that time. I mean, I am full of people, right? Like Bella Andre and Barbara Friede. Like, there were people who had written a backlist and were very successful in their own way. But, like, this is a big thing, Right. It's become huge. You know, Penguin Random House is coming hard for these books, like, wants these books, and you are able to say, like, make it worth my while. And that is the dream yes.
- [52:59]
Ruby Dixon
And so they came back and they were like, okay, we do want these books. We think we can get them in stores and solve this problem. However, we can't back up the money trust truck because like it would be such a commitment. And I think they were afraid at that point because anybody that's been in self publishing for a long time knows that around 2011, 2012, publishers bought up a lot of self published stuff and then the well ran dry. So then they stopped again. And when Ice Planet Barbarians hit, they were like, okay, let's try this new crazy thing where you keep your ebook ride rights and we do the print rights. Do you want to roll the dice with us on that? And I was like, you know what, let's do that. Because I would look at my print books and they would be like 1/100th of what the Kindle Unlimited or the ebooks were selling. So I was like, you know what, you can have print rights. And that ended up working out really well with Katie's covers. Yes.
- [54:07]
Jennifer Prokop
No, no, they had great.
- [54:08]
Sarah MacLean
The early ones were just using those early covers, were they not?
- [54:13]
Jennifer Prokop
The original print book had those different covers. That was like the big deal.
- [54:16]
Ruby Dixon
They were the illustrated covers. I was like, I want illustrated covers. Yeah, right? Those beautiful, I'm like, illustrated covers. Yeah, yeah. And people were like, oh, that's why. Hey.
- [54:27]
Sarah MacLean
I'm like, so it was the POD that had those original covers.
- [54:30]
Ruby Dixon
POD has the very lurid.
- [54:33]
Sarah MacLean
I think that's the copy I have. Just FYI, that's where I am in the Ice Planet Barbarians world.
- [54:38]
Ruby Dixon
And it's, it's so funny too because I was like, I want an upmarket like illustrated cover to pull in a new audience. If you've seen the Kindle Unlimited cover, you've already decided if it's for you or not. So I want to pull in new people. And so the initial cover just had Georgie on the COVID and Walmart came back and they're like, where are her boobs? We need some boobs to show that it's romance. And I was like, okay, so we added some cleavage and then I think Target came back and they're like, where's the hero? Yeah, we need Hero on this cover. So that's why you have like the hero photo.
- [55:19]
Sarah MacLean
And he's beautiful.
- [55:20]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, yes. And then they were like real like
- [55:23]
Sarah MacLean
Fabio style, that hero.
- [55:25]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. So everybody that's like, why did this author pick this cover? It's a committee every time. You could be like, I have the most beautiful cover on Earth. And Walmart could be like, we think she needs a raccoon on the COVID because raccoons are really hot. And then you get a raccoon because Walmart will buy those books. Yeah. So it's all very committing. And so we had Ice Planet Barbarians and we just put the print book out. And it didn't do crazy well at the beginning, like, because everybody had already bought it.
- [55:59]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [55:59]
Ruby Dixon
Right. And. But it just kept selling and it just kept selling. And like I. The next one came out, the next one came out and they have all sold consistently. It didn't hit the New York Times. It didn't hit USA Today. I don't think it hit USA Today until like number six. And I think it hit like number 150 out of 100. But I was like, yay, USA Today. But they, they just couldn't consistently sell. And I think Ice Planet Barbarians, the Penguin version, is now like in the 23rd printing.
- [56:34]
Jennifer Prokop
That's amazing.
- [56:36]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah. And I've been doing events and 90% of the time, if you do an event at a bookstore, these people only read at bookstores. They go to the bookstore and use it like, like shopping. Like, they look at what's on the shelves. They don't go on Amazon and see what's coming out. They just read what is at the bookstore. And I thought that was fascinating. It's this whole niche of the market that you cannot get as a Kindle Unlimited author. And I was like, oh, this is an opportunity for me to grow sideways instead of just focusing all in on Kindle Unlimited.
- [57:17]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, listen, we were all just bookstore only readers until we weren't. I mean, that's how. I mean, sometimes I'm like, how did I find people in the 90s?
- [57:27]
Sarah MacLean
You went to the store.
- [57:28]
Jennifer Prokop
You just went to the store and you shopped until you found something you wanted to read, right?
- [57:33]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, yes. So, yeah, I mean, it's been really great. And it's, it's fascinating to me because I will meet people and they're like, I can't wait for book 11. When's book 11 coming out? I want to be like, book 11's been out since 2017. Go read it on your Kindle. But they, they read the paper.
- [57:51]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah, they're just going methodically in their format.
- [57:54]
Ruby Dixon
They share it with family, they borrow it from the library. And I'm like, that's fantastic.
- [57:59]
Sarah MacLean
So where are we at now with parallel publishing?
- [58:02]
Ruby Dixon
The.
- [58:03]
Sarah MacLean
So how many, how many books are there in the series that you have written in E. Okay.
- [58:10]
Ruby Dixon
In the initial series, I Want to say there was 21, but like three of them were novellas that I would just put out to kind of like bridge the gap. So those don't necessarily count. So maybe there's going to be like 17 or something like that.
- [58:23]
Sarah MacLean
And then there are the spinoffs.
- [58:25]
Ruby Dixon
There's the spinoffs, which is Ice Home. And I want to say there was 17 of those. And then there is a spin off of the spinoff called Ice Planet Clones where it's another group of people on the same planet. And then there is also a wider ruby verse. Imagine me spreading my hands where like, because it's a space faring race, so there's, you know, corsairs in space and the people a home planet. And like there's cat aliens and there's an entire planet where they do like a little House on the Prairie style homesteading because it's like a human refuge. And just like I just keep playing in the same universe and it's a lot of fun.
- [59:11]
Sarah MacLean
And then in print so far, it's just the Ice Planet Barbarian Books.
- [59:17]
Ruby Dixon
Book 11 comes out December 1st.
- [59:20]
Jennifer Prokop
This lady's gonna be so excited.
- [59:22]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, it will be there on day one. And then like 12 and 13, I want to say come out next year. And then I'm also doing Romantasy with Berkeley.
- [59:33]
Sarah MacLean
So then you sort of started this new, you know, like the Minotaur book was the beginning. Right? That's the first.
- [59:39]
Ruby Dixon
And those are.
- [59:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Those are like traditionally published in both E and print. Right. Like, those aren't in ku. Right. Okay.
- [59:47]
Ruby Dixon
I don't know if it was the first. It might have been bound to the Shadow Prince. That was the first. That was through Yonper, which was an experimental sort of thing that Webtoon did where it was a serial. Oh, right. Bitch loves the Cereal. They would do like a chapter a week, but you had to like pay to unlock it or whatever. And readers were like, we absolutely hate this so much. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry.
- [60:12]
Sarah MacLean
I mean, fast readers.
- [60:14]
Ruby Dixon
I don't know.
- [60:15]
Sarah MacLean
That is a really. That is tough for a fast reader.
- [60:18]
Ruby Dixon
Like, it is, it is. And as a, as a reader, I get it. But as the author, it's fun to make you sweat for like a week, you know. So sure, it feeds the evil part of me, but I think that one, initially it was on the app and then it was. Was audio and then it was print, and then it was ebook. It was a very weird sort of rolling, late, roll, rollout.
- [60:46]
Jennifer Prokop
So is that that aspect and anchor series, you mean?
- [60:50]
Sarah MacLean
No, that's mine.
- [60:51]
Ruby Dixon
Self published. Okay. That.
- [60:52]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I love those. Again, I was like. I was literally like Ruby is doing like. I just. One of the things I think readers might be curious or like listeners to hear about is, you know, you clearly have a very fertile imagination. Right. I mean, so you talked a lot about where it came from, like with your childhood reading.
- [61:10]
Sarah MacLean
But like how do you keep feeding?
- [61:13]
Jennifer Prokop
How do you keep feeding that? Right, it must. Or is it just really still all up in there?
- [61:18]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [61:18]
Jennifer Prokop
Do you struggle ever with like ideas or how to get them out into book form?
- [61:24]
Ruby Dixon
No, I don't know. I think a lot of my ideas, they come for me. I love reading nonfiction, like non fiction about. Usually about tragedies like shipwrecks or my husband jokes that I've never met a book about a cannibal. I didn't like like the Donner Party, like terrible situations that people have been in. And I also love like archeology books. I just read a book by Aidan Dodson about Amarna. I just read another book, Donald Ryan, that was about his experiences working in the Valley of Kings. I just like a lot of history and you pull ideas from like these weird that they throw in and it kind of forms an idea and this idea sits in the back of your head and I joke that it's a ball of trash and it's a piece of trash that sticks in the back of your head and then you get more pieces of trash, trash. And then eventually all these pieces of trash form into a ball and that ball becomes the story. So a story is never one idea. It's like 20 ideas that ended up sticking together and forming a concept. Yeah.
- [62:40]
Jennifer Prokop
Interesting. You should read books about Chernobyl. Sorry, that's like my personal. I mean if you like a disaster story, it's unreal. So.
- [62:47]
Ruby Dixon
Okay. Whaling ships in the 18th century. Read them all. Read them all.
- [62:53]
Jennifer Prokop
So, so amazing.
- [62:55]
Sarah MacLean
So I think also people would be interested in. You're so prolific. What does it. I mean, do you write?
- [63:03]
Jennifer Prokop
You.
- [63:03]
Sarah MacLean
You must write every day, all day long. How it is.
- [63:06]
Ruby Dixon
I, I do write every day. It's not all day long. I've been actually a lot slower in the last year or two and I think it's just a variety of things. Like the general situation is hard on anxiety and there's a lot of like administration with self publishing and traditional publishing because like every time I turn around I've got copy edits on something, I've got galleys on something. I've got 10 emails from bookstores. That want stickers or whatever. And so like, it ends up taking a lot more out of me than I realize. I do try to write every day because it bothers me anxiety wise if I don't. I'm still trying to get better about, like, you can take a day off. Can I? Can I? But I do meet with friends on Zoom every morning and we talk a little bit. I meet with Alexa Riley, Katie Wild.
- [64:01]
Sarah MacLean
Same group.
- [64:03]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. And we chat for a bit and we work. So. Great. Yes. And we work and we meet like in the morning and at night and then sometimes, you know, it just drags on. But yeah, we get together and we're like, hey, let's, let's get some work done. So.
- [64:18]
Sarah MacLean
And so we. Are you, Are you bouncing ideas off of each other? Are you?
- [64:23]
Ruby Dixon
Sometimes. Sometimes it's just encouragement. Sometimes it's like, you know, I know you have a book on sub, but you still got to work on something else, you know? Yeah.
- [64:32]
Sarah MacLean
When it looks on sub, you're like, I'm, I just, I have nothing to do.
- [64:36]
Ruby Dixon
I can't do anything until. Yeah. Yes. And sometimes it's just, you know, and
- [64:44]
Sarah MacLean
so can we talk? I. I have, I have. I really want to get back, I want to go back to the kind of hallmark of a Ruby Dixon book.
- [64:55]
Ruby Dixon
Okay.
- [64:56]
Sarah MacLean
Because I think there is something, I mean, I talked about how I think, like, your heroes really did transform the genre in a, in a certain way. And I wonder, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that piece again. And do you feel like there was, it was in response to. You've clearly, you've, you've said that politics sort of impact you. Do you feel like those heroes were birthed on the backs of politics in some way? Why do we, why are we so drawn to these soft boys?
- [65:27]
Ruby Dixon
I think because like, like as current day women, there are so many responsibilities and there are so many men that feel like they have to act a certain way or do a certain thing or even like, you know, when you get married, the expectation is that like, oh, you know, everything's equal. But is it equal at dinner time or are you making dinner? You know, or is it like, take, you know, I don't, I don't know a good way to say it, but it still just feels unequal.
- [66:06]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [66:07]
Ruby Dixon
The time and, or like anybody that's worked in the workplace with a bunch of men and you're like One of the 20% of the women, you know, it ain't equal. You know, it's like the emotional labor
- [66:20]
Jennifer Prokop
that you do in those, in those cases. Right.
- [66:22]
Ruby Dixon
And, and I do think a lot of it is like I was tired of the, the women being the ones doing all the emotional labor. So I wanted the supportive guy. I wanted the guy that's like, he's just thrilled to have a wife, you know, instead of like, oh well, you know, this is the best you can do sort of thing. And I, and I say that like, I love my husband. My husband is fantastic. He's the most people read into that.
- [66:53]
Sarah MacLean
Like, you know, not all men, but always a man.
- [66:55]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [66:56]
Ruby Dixon
I write about women having all kinds of babies. I have no children happily. You know, it's just like, it's the fantasy. But yeah, I wanted to write like, you know, if I'm, if I'm throwing everything in the kitchen sink into this fantasy world, why not make them just the nicest, most, most happy wife guys, you know? And because it's also fun to think that he's very monstrous on the outside and he's actually just like the opposite of like your, your chads, your incels or whatever that you're, that you're meeting in like online dating now, which is pretty much all dating now. And I don't know, I just like the, the juxtaposition of like, like yes, you can read about these terrible billionaires or these, you know, the dark romance and like, you know, the hero so aggressive and, and angry and I'm like, I don't, I don't know that I want angry that I could see snuggling up to in the cave.
- [68:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [68:02]
Sarah MacLean
Do you.
- [68:03]
Jennifer Prokop
So I mean, we've talked about like sort of tick tock and like that like huge wave of readership. But what about like individual readers when you meet, you know, when you meet readers, like sort of one on one or do you get like letters or emails? Like how, how do. Is that, what do you, what do you hear from your readers? I.
- [68:20]
Ruby Dixon
Readers love the different types of heroines that I have and that's not something I consciously set out to do.
- [68:30]
Sarah MacLean
But they are so different. Yeah. And they're so like, they're, they're. Some of them are really like tough and some of them are really like,
- [68:40]
Ruby Dixon
like, like a mess.
- [68:42]
Sarah MacLean
Stiff, you know, like shy.
- [68:44]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, like the whole range.
- [68:46]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [68:46]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah. And I, I wanted, you know, initially started out with like, it would be great to be able to write like three books in this series because I didn't have expectations for it. And then I was like, oh, it would be great to write Josie's Book. And I always had planned hers to be like, book six or whatever. And along the way, I ran into Tiffany's book, and Tiffany is a black heroine. And I was like, I would feel really gross if I skipped it just because she's black. And I was like, well, I'm going to write it knowing that I, a white person, do not have the right context to write this woman. But at the same time, I wanted to write it as a universal sort of story. Like, it doesn't matter what color she is. I'm going to write about a woman in space. So I was hoping that that would
- [69:38]
Sarah MacLean
be
- [69:40]
Ruby Dixon
the right way to go about it. Was it correct? I don't know. Hindsight. I would have had a lot of sensitivity readers at the time. It was not a thing. And then as I kept writing, readers would write me, and they're like, oh, can you put a person that is Puerto Rican in this? Can you put a woman with anxiety in this? And I had, like, a deaf hero, and I had a fat hero, heroin. I had all. All kinds of heroines. And the only thing that I heard from readers was, this is great. Can you make one that looks like me or has this problem that I have? And I was like, you know, people just want to be seen in a story. And I love that. And I've. I have definitely messed things up. I use a lot more sensitivity readers now than I did when I first started, because I did have readers correct me and they're like, you know, hey, I'm Cuban, and. And you wrong. And I was like, oh, the good thing about self publishing is, is you could take it, fix it. And so now I do use sensitivity readers. And I'm like, hey, I need like 10 of you to read this and tell me what I did wrong. Tear me a new one if you need to, because I don't know what I don't know. I'm asking you for help. And so I pay sensitivity readers, and I. And I get a variety of opinions because you're always going to have somebody. It's like, I loved it. No changes, right? And that's a bad note.
- [71:03]
Sarah MacLean
That's a bad note.
- [71:05]
Ruby Dixon
And then you're gonna have somebody else that's like, this is absolutely terrible. Let me tell you everything that you did wrong, which I really appreciate, because, like, you see everything through your own perspective. You have blinders on. And so I want it to be. I don't want you to pick up a book and be disappointed in me.
- [71:25]
Sarah MacLean
So
- [71:27]
Ruby Dixon
it's. It's a process. I'm always trying to get better, so. But I do enjoy writing a variety of heroines. I like writing people that have anxiety. I have anxiety. I don't know what it's like to not live with anxiety. You know, I wrote a heroine that is hard of hearing, and in addition to a deaf heroine, and, like, she needed, like, hearing aids. I wear hearing aids. So I went. I went. I went through her experiences where, like, you know, she tells people she's. She pretends like she's following along with the conversation, and she's not, and all the problems that that causes. I have a book coming up where the heroine has scoliosis, and it's a fantasy world, and it's not corrected, and it's. And it's her perspective on how people treat her and how it affects, like, her perspective in the world. She. She gets angry at how people treat her, and she decides she wants to do something about it. And I'm like, this is a perspective that I want to see because a couple of months ago, I was looking for books about scoliosis. And as a scoliosis, as an adult, and there's nothing. There is nothing. It doesn't go away. Once you hit 14, you know, your shoulders are still crooked. You still have back problems. Like, your clothes fit funny. Like, if I wanted somebody that had to that sort of perspective, we're like, yeah, you know, if I do too much, my back's gonna go out. And then I'm. For the next week and a half, and there was nothing there. So I was like, I'm gonna have to write it. So I love that. Yeah.
- [73:04]
Sarah MacLean
I'm just gonna have to do it.
- [73:06]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah.
- [73:06]
Jennifer Prokop
You know, that to me, is very Georgie. Right. Like, one of my favorite parts about, like, Georgie's book is her and Liz kind of being like, okay, who's gonna go out there and do it? And they all look to her like. Like, you.
- [73:17]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [73:17]
Jennifer Prokop
And I felt like that was the kind of, like, model of, like, womanhood that I really felt like was, you know, like earthlings kind of brought to the table. Right. Of, like, the planet itself.
- [73:29]
Ruby Dixon
Right. That was my. Okay. I've been in a group project before, and there's going to be, like, 80% discussion and 20%. Someone's just going to have to dig in and do it. And then I'm always the one that's like, let me just take over and do it, because I know I. I know how I want it done.
- [73:45]
Sarah MacLean
Done. So that's the benefit. Having that terrible job that one time.
- [73:51]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. I still, I still have dreams where I'm in an office like, you know, being called in to talk to my boss about what I did this last week. And it wasn't a terrible job, but there's just something about it that's like,
- [74:06]
Sarah MacLean
it wasn't for you. It wasn't for you.
- [74:09]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [74:10]
Sarah MacLean
You were destined for the, this greatness, not a different one.
- [74:14]
Ruby Dixon
There we go.
- [74:14]
Sarah MacLean
There we go. So tell us about where you think this all goes. Are there, is there something in your head where you. Do you have like a wish that you, you know, do you have something you really want to write? Something that you know, you know, I
- [74:34]
Ruby Dixon
take it, I do try to take it book by book. Like there are. I like, I do want to write everybody story for characters I have recently dropped on the ice planet because I feel like if there's a name, readers want a book.
- [74:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh yeah.
- [74:49]
Sarah MacLean
And have you now that you know, like how expansive this world is. Are you thinking of it that way? Like I'm dropping people and already know, like, yes, I put Sarah on the planet. She's gonna be this.
- [75:00]
Ruby Dixon
Yes, yes, yes. I have definitely done some of that. I would like to write the story of the initial crash. Crash, like because the whole thing is that they were a space faring race and they crashed there like a thousand years ago, blah, blah, blah. I've had people asking for that and I do want to write that. It's just that it's going to be a lot of work and fact checking myself. And of course not so good at fact checking myself.
- [75:27]
Sarah MacLean
Where's Thighs Planet Wiki? Come on. Wait, there definitely is to exist.
- [75:32]
Ruby Dixon
There's a wiki?
- [75:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I was like, yeah, no, I've, I've consulted with the wiki.
- [75:36]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. I've had volunteers are like, just send me your pages, Ruby, I will fact check you. I'm like, that's, that's useful. Yes, it is. But at the same time I'm like, it has to be in my brain.
- [75:49]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right.
- [75:50]
Ruby Dixon
But that's, that's a project I would definitely like to write and so I would like to write the kids, but I don't want it to be like, oh, I just read book four and now.
- [75:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, now they're old.
- [75:59]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah, is old. And she's got like 30 kids singing my song.
- [76:04]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [76:04]
Sarah MacLean
I don't know. Problem with kid robots. Romance.
- [76:07]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah.
- [76:08]
Sarah MacLean
The next generation. No one dies. No one should ever die.
- [76:11]
Ruby Dixon
No, I'm still horribly scarred from like Juliet Marillier. Love her writing the one with the seven swans and the Brothers. Daughter of the Forest. Daughter of the Forest. The most beautiful love story in book one. And in book three, she's old and she dies, and her husband is. Is there. Spoiler alert. That.
- [76:32]
Jennifer Prokop
Absolutely not.
- [76:34]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah, but I was like, that just ruined it for me. How could you. So nobody ages and dies on the I.
- [76:42]
Sarah MacLean
And then what about. Do you think about, like, new pen name and also writing something completely different?
- [76:48]
Ruby Dixon
No, no, this is completely different. It would be Ruby Dixon. Because I'm like, yeah, right now. This is where you're all my Ruby fans. Yeah. I've had people.
- [76:58]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah. This is where the Readers. The Reader truck is parked in the Ruby Dixon parking lot. Yeah. Yeah.
- [77:03]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. They're like, is your other name Nora Roberts? And I'm like. I'm like, baby, if I was Nora Roberts, I would get that Nora Roberts money.
- [77:11]
Jennifer Prokop
You would have your own town if you were.
- [77:14]
Sarah MacLean
That's.
- [77:15]
Jennifer Prokop
That's Nora Roberts money.
- [77:16]
Ruby Dixon
I own a town.
- [77:18]
Jennifer Prokop
I'm a company.
- [77:19]
Sarah MacLean
If you ever own a town, will you name it Ice Planet?
- [77:22]
Ruby Dixon
I. I would name it Croatoan, because that's the village.
- [77:26]
Jennifer Prokop
So can I ask a question? Okay, sorry.
- [77:28]
Sarah MacLean
This is.
- [77:29]
Jennifer Prokop
Now that we're talking about how to.
- [77:30]
Ruby Dixon
Okay, okay.
- [77:31]
Jennifer Prokop
Can you give us the final word on how to pronounce the cui? Like the.
- [77:38]
Ruby Dixon
So there's layers to that. I. I always say. Okay. I always say cui because it sounds like cootie.
- [77:47]
Jennifer Prokop
Sure.
- [77:47]
Sarah MacLean
That's what they call it.
- [77:48]
Jennifer Prokop
And that's what they call.
- [77:49]
Ruby Dixon
They call it the narrators. Some of them ask me how to pronounce things, and some do not. So
- [78:01]
Sarah MacLean
no judgment, but sort of judgment. Right.
- [78:04]
Ruby Dixon
But I'm also like, it's a written medium. I picked that word because of how it looked on the page. Yeah. Versus how it sounded. So there's no wrong answer.
- [78:14]
Jennifer Prokop
Ruby. Fine.
- [78:17]
Sarah MacLean
Okay. She says, cooey.
- [78:19]
Jennifer Prokop
She says. She says, that's what we want to know.
- [78:21]
Sarah MacLean
That's the tech.
- [78:22]
Jennifer Prokop
I'm like, what did your mother name you?
- [78:24]
Sarah MacLean
You.
- [78:24]
Jennifer Prokop
Sometimes I say that to the. My students. What did your. What does your mother call you?
- [78:28]
Ruby Dixon
That?
- [78:28]
Jennifer Prokop
Is your name not what you're saying?
- [78:31]
Ruby Dixon
I say, all right.
- [78:36]
Jennifer Prokop
One of the other questions we have is like, is there a book that. Okay, so is there a book that readers love best?
- [78:44]
Ruby Dixon
And then is there a book that
- [78:46]
Jennifer Prokop
you love best or that you're, like, really proud? Really proud of? The one that you're like, this is Ruby Nixon.
- [78:56]
Ruby Dixon
Wow. Let me think.
- [78:57]
Sarah MacLean
Sometimes we frame that question as, like, is there a book that if you could only leave one behind, what's the book you would leave behind?
- [79:04]
Ruby Dixon
And I think, I think right now, I mean, you always love the one that you just turned in. Villain Origin story, which is my heroine with scoliosis, comes out in February 2027. And I'm excited for that one because is. It's kind of a different sort of vibe for me because, like, she's like, oh, no, I'm. I'm gonna ruin people's lives. I want to ruin people's lives and I want to make people pay for how they've treated me. And she meets a hero that's like. He's like, cool, let's. Let's behead everyone.
- [79:40]
Sarah MacLean
You know, heads of your enemies as a love language is a real. Cressley Cole, Sarah McLean. Jen broke up.
- [79:48]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes, we love that.
- [79:50]
Ruby Dixon
Usually my people are us, like, leaning towards good. So for me, it was a lot of fun to be like, well, what if we just go around murdering people?
- [80:03]
Sarah MacLean
It's a 2026 vibe, really.
- [80:05]
Ruby Dixon
It is, it is. The whole inspiration was because she was sick of men's shit. And so she's like, yeah, I'm tired of this. Sick of being overlooked.
- [80:16]
Sarah MacLean
That's great. I can't wait.
- [80:18]
Jennifer Prokop
I know. I can't either.
- [80:20]
Sarah MacLean
And then what about readers? What is their readers?
- [80:23]
Ruby Dixon
I get a lot of readers that love Josti's book, and I get a lot of reader mail about Barbarian's Hope, which is Asha and Himalo, which are the two aliens that when they first land, they're like a broken up couple. They resonated. They lost a child and they were no longer together. And I got so many emails when that book came out because their story is them finding each other again and she ends up, like, pregnant with their second baby and, like, how they feel about it and process it and how they find each other again and forgive each other, because, you know, when you have something that monumental that happens in a relationship, somebody blames somebody, somebody acts out because of trauma. And I didn't intend to write it as, like, working through a trauma sort of story, but I think a lot of readers really resonate to that. I got so many emails from people that are like, you know, thank you for writing this. I have a rainbow baby. Thank you for writing this. You know, we lost our child and broke up. And, like, you know, I still think about him. And just like so many people reading such a deep, emotional thing in. In a book that I wrote about aliens, you know, and that really opened my eyes to, like, you know, you can write about silly books and you can write about serious topics, but it doesn't have to be framed in a serious way. It's a lot of the time, it's like, okay, this terrible thing happened. Happened. How do we move forward and still live our lives and still find happiness day to day? And I think that's what a lot of my books are like. Something terrible happened.
- [82:22]
Sarah MacLean
Yeah.
- [82:22]
Ruby Dixon
You know, maybe the world blew up. Maybe, you know, you were kidnapped from Earth. I don't know. You know, and. And it's like, okay, how do I move forward and still have an awesome life? And, you know, know a lot of the stories. There's a guy in it, but he's not trying to change you. He's just trying to be awesome with you.
- [82:42]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [82:43]
Ruby Dixon
And I think that speaks to a lot of people. It's. It's a cozy sort of read.
- [82:50]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [82:50]
Sarah MacLean
Romance.
- [82:52]
Ruby Dixon
That's right. Because if you have to change somebody, you shouldn't be getting with them anyhow. You have to love them with all their flaws.
- [83:01]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, of course.
- [83:03]
Ruby Dixon
Yep.
- [83:05]
Sarah MacLean
Ruby Dixon, you're amazing.
- [83:06]
Jennifer Prokop
That was amazing.
- [83:07]
Sarah MacLean
I knew this conversation would be amazing, but now I'm very happy to know that I was right. This was really incredible. I'm so grateful to you. I'm so grateful to your book. To you for your books and for your time. But also because I feel like, you know, we spend so much time on faded mates, like, thinking about the movements of romance and the touchstones of romance and. Sure. And we spend so. And it's so difficult to see them when you're living right up against them.
- [83:37]
Ruby Dixon
Absolutely.
- [83:38]
Sarah MacLean
And. But I just feel like from the moment I read Ice Planet Barbarians, I was like, this is something totally fresh and important. So your silly books about aliens were never silly to me.
- [83:54]
Ruby Dixon
No, it's like, it's. I've always joked that, like, on the Taco Bell of literature, because, like, who doesn't love Taco Bell?
- [84:04]
Jennifer Prokop
Love Taco Bell, though.
- [84:05]
Ruby Dixon
But also, like, you. You get so many books thrown at you as a young adult or as somebody in college of, like, here, you have to read this because it's a. It's a literary, you know, icon. It's. It's something formative. It's going to change your life. Well, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it's just really dry and boring. And I just want you to love reading.
- [84:28]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [84:29]
Ruby Dixon
I want you to have the same love of reading and fun when you open a book as I did when I was little.
- [84:36]
Jennifer Prokop
As when we were little. Exactly. Like, there's a joyfulness to the way children read that a lot of adults never find. And that's okay. Like, reading can be a lot of things. Right. But, you know, I'm sure I don't. I'm gonna, like, tell you this really funny story. Maybe this is, like, an inappropriate way to wrap up, but I was at a teaching conference once, and sometimes. And someone's like, you know, I kind of mentioned, like, reading, being a romance reader. And then sometimes they'll say, oh, me too. And I think they're now going to say, I love, or whatever. And I was like, oh, what? So then I'm kind of always like, okay, well, what do you, like, Let me, like, test out this assertion. And this woman was like, Ruby Dixon. And I was like, oh, one of
- [85:15]
Sarah MacLean
us here for real?
- [85:16]
Jennifer Prokop
And we had a great time.
- [85:18]
Sarah MacLean
So that's awesome.
- [85:20]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah, I just. I think it should be a good time. And that's one thing why I'm really excited for Complete Tangent for the Dungeon crawler Carl books to really be taking off, because I feel like, like, that's the Twilight for dudes bring back into. Yeah. And being like, yeah, reading doesn't have to be like, you know, military fiction or spies or whatever. It can be silliness. You know, show them the silly side. And I think if everybody reads more, it wins.
- [85:51]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes, agree. Well, thank you so much for being with us. This is amazing.
- [85:57]
Ruby Dixon
Thank you for being such big supporters of the books for so many years.
- [86:02]
Sarah MacLean
That is honestly not at all a trial. Ruby, everybody knows who you are, but would you just tell us a little bit about where we can find you and the next book? The next book. I'm sure there are several.
- [86:23]
Ruby Dixon
I am chronically online. I. I do have a website. Ruby dixon.com. i have a Facebook. I have an Instagram. I'm really bad at answering dms. Don't DM me. It will just disappear into the void. But I do post a serial on a daily basis right now just to throw a little something positive out into the universe in this hellish black pit that we are in. And I have a newsletter. It will not spam you. It'll just be like twice a month. Here's what's going on with Ruby. I do have a book coming out in December. It is Farley's book, which is book 11, Barbarian's Choice. And then in February 2027, I will have a hardcover called Bill and Origin Story with Penguin Random House. And it's about a woman who gets tired of the patriarchy and goes to the evil emperor to teach her how to be Evil to too.
- [87:22]
Jennifer Prokop
So I want to read that right now.
- [87:25]
Sarah MacLean
Evil Lessons. It's like sex lessons, but for now, yes.
- [87:29]
Ruby Dixon
It turns out to be very different than what she expects.
- [87:32]
Jennifer Prokop
Oh, great.
- [87:33]
Sarah MacLean
I can't wait. I'm so excited. If you're listening Berkeley, you know my address.
- [87:39]
Ruby Dixon
Same. I'll get Holly to send you something.
- [87:41]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, there you go. You. You all. We, you know, you know, people know people. You know what? It was funny, though. So we are recording this only about 12 hours after Artemis 2 splashed down into the ocean. And just like everyone, everything I ever think about is really filtered through the romance brain. And I found myself feeling really hopeful about space. Really? And I thought this and the ice planet barbarians make me feel hopeful about space.
- [88:08]
Ruby Dixon
Yes. Yes, I could. You know what? I couldn't watch it because Challenger. Challenger watched it in geography class when I was a kid. Teacher turned it on.
- [88:20]
Jennifer Prokop
Yep.
- [88:20]
Ruby Dixon
Turned it right back off.
- [88:22]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah.
- [88:22]
Sarah MacLean
Like, okay.
- [88:23]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah. So an entire generation, but they're back
- [88:27]
Sarah MacLean
and everything is great and the moon is perfect from the backside. And that's. Couldn't be happier for everyone involved. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Ruby. We hope it's not the last time. Come back anytime.
- [88:41]
Ruby Dixon
All right, Sounds good.
- [88:43]
Sarah MacLean
The best ones are the ones where you just wind them up and they just tell you their whole story in a perfect through line, which, frankly, no surprise. This lady's written 400 books and is great at it.
- [88:58]
Jennifer Prokop
At the beginning, we talked a little bit about, like, the first wave of trailblazers. Now we're in, like, our second era. In the first round, we are talking to women who are, like, right. Older than us in a lot of cases, and they're sort of like entrance into the romance space, like, over and over again. You're hearing things like the Flame and the Flower and Kathleen E. Woody Wilson. Right. Like, sort of those early books. And for all the authors we've ever talked to, a big through line was like, what was I reading as a child?
- [89:27]
Sarah MacLean
Yep.
- [89:27]
Jennifer Prokop
What was on the shelves of my home as a child or in the places I can access books. And so, of course, it was fascinating to hear her say her mom loved old sci fi. Right. Like old westerns.
- [89:42]
Sarah MacLean
Oh, that was the first time we heard Clan of the Cave Bear.
- [89:45]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [89:45]
Sarah MacLean
I mean, which, of course, like, of course. I can't believe I've never said Clan of the Cave Bear in an interview. Like, I remember picking that. I mean, my mom. Everybody's mom had that.
- [89:57]
Jennifer Prokop
Everybody's mom had that book. And everybody was like, I'm going to read this. Right. It was f. And I was just like, of course. Right. Like what went into the primordial soup that was. That is like ruined.
- [90:11]
Sarah MacLean
Being like birthed by Clan of the Caveman. Makes such perfect sense. Sense. Yes.
- [90:17]
Ruby Dixon
I.
- [90:17]
Jennifer Prokop
As soon as she said it, I was like, of course.
- [90:19]
Sarah MacLean
Listen, there is a lot about this world that we live in that I am just flummox by today. But that, that moment of just utter clarity, just the universe is writing itself, everyone. Right.
- [90:33]
Jennifer Prokop
Often you hear people putting it together for themselves too. And I don't know, May, you know, I can't read Ruby's mind, but when she was talking, I felt like there was a way that even she was like, oh, I. Like, even it is making sense to me. Right.
- [90:47]
Sarah MacLean
I mean, the moment. The first name she said was a McAffrey. And I was like, oh, wait, say, say less as the children say. Like, that is 1,000% correct.
- [90:59]
Jennifer Prokop
That.
- [91:00]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah.
- [91:00]
Sarah MacLean
These are the people who stitched your DNA. And then.
- [91:05]
Jennifer Prokop
And then the zebra Last of the
- [91:07]
Sarah MacLean
Mohicans again, lost on a kind of. Of unhospitable planet.
- [91:14]
Jennifer Prokop
I didn't bring it up, but I, I found myself thinking it was also a really different time in terms of like, how adults like, really thought of like their children as readers. And there was just a point where kids like ran out of books to read. And then it was totally cool to just give your kids, like adult books. You know what I mean? Like, what else were you going to.
- [91:37]
Sarah MacLean
What else was there?
- [91:38]
Jennifer Prokop
I mean, I remember like reading like James Michner and like this Travis McGee series of mysteries and you know, you were just really hungry for any adult to like sort of sear you to a book. Yeah. And be like, okay, I'll try this. And so, you know, I think the other thing too is I, I really want to say if you are a person who is potentially over involved in your child's reading life, like, just let them read, like write. Let them read. And I think whatever, whatever it is that's interesting to them. You know, I think that that is. Is like a, A, you know, they will put down the things they don't want to read and read the things they do and it's fine. Yeah.
- [92:17]
Sarah MacLean
And don't be so scared about them reading sex Everyone. You'd rather have them reading consensual like wife guys from Ruby Dixon than.
- [92:26]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, right.
- [92:28]
Sarah MacLean
Whatever they're discovering on the rabbit hole of Reddit.
- [92:30]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [92:33]
Sarah MacLean
So there is that. I'm really. I was really. And I, I'm sure you saw it and heard it when she was like, I don't need New York.
- [92:42]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [92:43]
Sarah MacLean
Like the words. She said the words. And I thought that's it. That's the.
- [92:49]
Jennifer Prokop
That's the modern trailblazer, right? Like the.
- [92:53]
Sarah MacLean
Every other trailblazer we've ever had.
- [92:56]
Ruby Dixon
Right.
- [92:56]
Sarah MacLean
The dream. You know, even E.E. ottoman, who is our youngest trailblazer. Right?
- [93:03]
Jennifer Prokop
Probably. Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah.
- [93:04]
Sarah MacLean
And EE started really desperately. You know, when he talks about his story, he talks about, you know, desperately trying to like, get published by small presses. Radcliffe talks about. Right, the creating small presses. Right, yeah. And the pure desire to like, be published, like in print for bookstores. But the moment that Ruby said that, that, like, that's really the shift. And there are other people who, you know, I'm. I reference Bella Andre and Barbara Freey. Like, who both of whom I think are also people who like, are people who would be interested in. Interesting in this context.
- [93:46]
Ruby Dixon
But
- [93:49]
Sarah MacLean
that's it. And yeah.
- [93:50]
Jennifer Prokop
And I would say like the big shift. So if that's like 2020, I don't need New York. I feel like in 2026, it's like. And New York needs a US.
- [93:59]
Sarah MacLean
Well, the fact that she was being published traditionally during all of this by Berkeley and they knew about Ice Planet Barbarians, but just didn't think it was that won't sell traditionally. And now look at the way these books are. Are selling long like a constant stream.
- [94:23]
Jennifer Prokop
I had just sort of assumed that like Berkeley came calling, right? Like, let us. Let us put these books in print. And so it was really fascinating to hear instead that like, that and it does make sense, right? Like who is getting the emails and the DMs saying, I can't get this in my bookstore. Who is being tagged in those social media posts saying, people come in and want to buy these books. Right? And I think like, we. That's like an echo of all the things we heard all throughout the heated rivalry. Like big push. Like.
- [94:55]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [94:55]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, you know, bookstore after bookstore saying, saying, people are coming in looking for this book and they. And I don't have it. And I do think that is like a. A really how fast a book goes from being like, well, it doesn't matter because you can read it online. These are ebook first and to know, like at some point reader, like, Right. Like capturing the reader who only reads in print.
- [95:18]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah.
- [95:19]
Sarah MacLean
The Venn diagram of readership. I mean, the. That story that she told where it was like, you know, know, the lady was looking for book 11 and what just downloaded on your phone My friend, like. But no, that's not. That's not how she wants it. And I think it's just this conversation felt really transformational for us, too, like, in the series, because it was like, oh, this is. This is how we talk about the shift. I. I love that she talked about her work around trying to write to readers. Like, you know, she hears from readers who want, you know, a character who looks like them, acts like them, is from their same culture and how she sort of has evolved as a writer to think about that. I talk a lot whenever, like, people ask us about the podcast in the world, like, and what we've learned from writers. One of the things I think the most about is that we sort of fall into two camps. And the camps are. Are writers who write for themselves and writers who write for readers. And I say that everybody. And I always feel like I have to qualify. I am not placing judgment on either of these things. Like, I think great books come from both of these camps.
- [96:35]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [96:36]
Sarah MacLean
But it's very clear to me that, like, Ruby is really thinking about readers.
- [96:41]
Ruby Dixon
Yeah.
- [96:41]
Jennifer Prokop
But also, like, only to a certain extent.
- [96:44]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [96:44]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, you know, and I think that that, like. Right. That there's, like a.
- [96:48]
Ruby Dixon
And I think this is true in.
- [96:50]
Jennifer Prokop
In genre fiction, I think you probably have to keep your eye on both at, like, different times. You can sort of be situated in one of those. But, you know, if you're only writing for yourself in genre, of course at some point they're gonna be like, what about the readers? But if you're only trying to, like, write to the reader and they're. Your readers are just too different. Right. And so I was really fascinated by the whole part about, like, I still like to, you know, kind of, like, release things as a serial every once in a while. Like, that is really fulfilling for. For Ruby to, like, think about it that way and to, like, you know, sort of have her, what she called her villain moment or whatever. And I think that that was so. That I was really. I was really fascinated in the idea that, like, there are times and, like, limits on that. Like. Right. Like, she cares about the reader, but also she is really writing to. I mean, you know, I've, like, the club was also really interesting.
- [97:44]
Sarah MacLean
Right. Yeah, that was.
- [97:45]
Jennifer Prokop
Was going to bring, you know, here's then, like, four of us who, like,
- [97:48]
Sarah MacLean
kind of sat down and said, we
- [97:50]
Jennifer Prokop
think that we can produce, I guess, five Alexa Riley's two people.
- [97:54]
Sarah MacLean
Right.
- [97:54]
Jennifer Prokop
We think we can produce in a certain way and at a certain time, at a certain pace. And that that will be really, like, well regarded by readers who have a Kindle who read like we do. Right. And so I thought that was also just really fascinating.
- [98:14]
Sarah MacLean
I love that. I also love the longevity of that group. Like, the same group that started together in 2015 is now still meeting daily. Like, it speaks to the need for community, even in the work that we are doing. Yes, it speaks to. And, like, obviously, she named. We recognize the names that she spoke. They're all, like, successful writers in their own worlds. But I think often, and I worry about this as somebody who's been coming through romance for so long. Right. Like, my career in romance feels ancient in a lot of ways. And the community piece was built in many ways by places like rwa, places like rt, where you would go and you'd meet each other. And I know that it does feel a little more. A little lonelier now.
- [99:15]
Jennifer Prokop
I think people always find new outlets if you're looking for that.
- [99:18]
Ruby Dixon
Right.
- [99:19]
Jennifer Prokop
Like, I have heard about so many, like, writer discords, for example, or write things like that, where people are sort of, you know, gathering together to write. But I do think that there is, like, a small group of your writer. Your club. Right. Your writer's club. The people that you can. Can get on a zoom with, that you can ask questions to that you can sort of, like, feel like you're in the room with people, you know, that's gonna make the books better. It is. It's gonna make your book better. It's gonna make their books better. Because, you know, writing, I think. I think it has such a funny. Especially now that I'm editing, like, such a funny. Like, oh, you just sit in alone in your house and do it. And then when you talk to writers, it's like, no, I have my people. I have the people I write with. I have the people who I bounce ideas off of. Yeah. So I was really interested in hearing about that, too.
- [100:16]
Sarah MacLean
Well, I thought this was so fun.
- [100:19]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, I loved it.
- [100:20]
Sarah MacLean
Great about this.
- [100:21]
Jennifer Prokop
I just feel so warmly towards people who really, like, love romance and realize and recognize, like, just how much opportunity there is in the romance space. Right. That if you're burned out. I mean, I think that was, like. To me too, if you are an author, it has to feel so compelling to essentially have someone say, like, just write what you want. Write your weird little books. You know, write the thing that is, like, in your. Right, in your brain, and, like, go ahead and do it. And I think that that is another really big part of what I found really inspiring is just like, the idea that, like, you. The reinventing yourself isn't just for the market, it's reinventing yourself for what you love, what you're interested in, the stories that you want to tell.
- [101:18]
Sarah MacLean
Absolutely. I mean, especially because if you listen to the story that she told, she was like, well, first. First I wrote Motorcycle because motorcycle was the market.
- [101:27]
Jennifer Prokop
Yes.
- [101:28]
Sarah MacLean
And it's like Katie Wild did, too, and she was. She could ride a banger in motorcycles. Right. But, like, it takes chasing. The market works for some people because they have the instinct for whatever the market is doing. But, man, if you had told me in 2020, in 2013, if you'd said to me the biggest series coming down the pike is Blue Aliens, I would have been like, that's crazy talk. But here we were. And it was because she clearly. I mean, like, there is no question that this woman's DNA was coded with blue aliens.
- [102:06]
Ruby Dixon
Yes.
- [102:07]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [102:08]
Sarah MacLean
This was her destiny.
- [102:09]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, of course. And ours.
- [102:12]
Ruby Dixon
Love it.
- [102:13]
Jennifer Prokop
Yeah, it was great. It was really fun.
- [102:14]
Sarah MacLean
I've not had a chance. Chance to read Ice Planet Barbarians. And you do decide to read the first book, which is a banger. We earlier this year did a deep dive of it. And then if you have read Ice Planet Barbarians, don't forget to go over and listen to Ice Planet Pod, which was a podcast from Danny Lacy.
- [102:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Right. Which is still available. It's like, you have to dig for it. We'll put it in show notes so that you can check it out. And it's really fun. And you and I were both on that one. But it also, like, there's just like a of. Lot, lot of. I think I. Like I said you, you know, you as an author, like, no one's going to want to read my weird book about blue aliens. And then it's like, no, everyone is right. And I can't always promise that. Promise that's going to happen. But if I. I do think that there are ways in which, like, if you come to a topic with, like, I just love this and think it's the best thing ever, there is a sort of authenticity to it that I think romance readers really flock to, too.
- [103:13]
Sarah MacLean
It's contagious. One of the biggest problems, I think, with romance right now is that writers are flattening their texts. Right? They're saying, like, oh, well, I have to write a book that feels exactly like, yeah, you know, these other people, like Emily Henry, Ali. Ali Horselwood.
- [103:36]
Jennifer Prokop
Right.
- [103:36]
Sarah MacLean
Abby Jimenez, Carly Fortune, whatever. Like, make your list. And you lose yourself in that. Unless, of course, like, some people are very good at that kind of book. But don't lose yourselves. I mean you don't need New York. I'm Sarah McLean and here with my friend Jen Procop, we are Fated Mace. You can listen to us every Wednesday wherever get you get your podcasts or you can find us online at Threads or or Instagram Aided mates pod on Blueskyated Mates. If you go to fatedmates.net, you can click on Episodes and see show notes for where we'll list all the authors that Ruby talks about in this episode and some other things. Anything else that we sort of talk about. Also a list of the books she references that are hers. Her most recent book or the book that she felt most proud of, which is Villain Origin Story is not out until next time, next spring. There is no cover yet, but we'll come back and add the COVID you know, in the future. And what else? If you want to talk more about Ruby, about trailblazers, if you want to suggest people for this idea of modern trailblazers, we want to hear all about it. You can obviously mention. You can tell us in on all the social media outlets that I talk about. Or if you'd like to come over and hang out with a bunch of other Faded Mains listeners who talk about romance all the time, you can join our patreon@patreon.com fadedmates which will get you access to our Discord, where romance readers are talking about romance constantly. Also, you get an extra episode every month from the Discord or from the Patreon and we'd love to have you over there. Thanks so much to Ruby Dixon for spending time with with us and sharing her story and we will see you all next week.
- [105:47]
Jennifer Prokop
Sam.