← Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
Fated Mates - Romance Books for Novel People
S08.33: Ian Mackenzie is DTF: The Madness of Lord Ian Mackenzie
01:36:46
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- [00:00]
A
Well, a deep dive. We haven't done a deep dive in a long time. I know. I'm very excited. Wait, I have actually did Ice Blooded Barbarians, but I mean, but I think
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B
that was a while ago. I mean, you know, time has no meaning anymore.
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A
Right, Exactly. Okay.
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B
I do want to.
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A
Okay.
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B
I have some, like, fun stats to
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A
share with you, Sarah.
- [00:18]
B
So a couple of months ago, and I have, like, been saving this in my inbox and always have been like, oh, I should, like, share this. And then today is finally the day I remember to actually do it. As we're recording, I got an email from a, like, a woman essentially, who, like, is a publicist, and she, like, she has, like, a bunch of information about Bumble, the dating app. And I was like, okay, this is, like, really interesting. And what it says is. So she shared this with me, and I was like, yeah, this is really fun. I should talk about this on the podcast. So basically it says that according to Bumble's findings, 61% of Gen Z and millennial daters agree that they are looking for a partner who shares their love of reading.
- [01:02]
A
And I think this was partly inspired by 61, 61%.
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B
And apparently this is, like, part of this was, like, driven by, you know, Dua Lipa is a big reader and she and her met her partner, this guy she's going to marry, I guess, while they were reading the same book, which is really cute.
- [01:21]
A
That's cute.
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B
I know. So I think, like, one of the things that's what's really interesting is, like, right? So there's all this information that, like, 72% now, meanwhile, these are dating apps. Maybe this is aspirational, I believe, you
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A
know, I understand that, but I still
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B
found this charming, right. That 72% of Bumble users say it's fun to geek out over a book with who they date, that they are more likely to swipe right if the person mentions a love of reading in their profile.
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A
Sure. Well, they're not a. There are less. Less chances of you being a dirtbag.
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B
Sure. And over half of Gen Z and millennial daters agree having a shared love for reading is a good indicator of romantic compatibility.
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A
I was like, isn't that cute? Amazing.
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B
I just felt very warm and fuzzy hearing amazing, everybody.
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A
Dua Lipa and her partner, Callum Turner met because they sat next to each other and she was reading Trust by Hernandia, which is a great fucking book.
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B
Every.
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A
And he said, I just finished the first chapter. And she looked at me and said, I just finished the first chapter. Too. And he said, so we're on the same page. Listen, listen. Also amazing. Well done, sir.
- [02:46]
B
Hey, this guy's no dummy, right? Yeah. Anyway. And you know, Dua Lipa actually, like, really loves books. You know, I'm, like, very charmed by it. She does, like, I think, YouTube. I don't watch them all the time, but these two are very cute.
- [03:00]
A
Cute together, too. There's a lot of pictures of them smiling with each other because they both read books.
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B
I know. It's really cute. It's really cute. So anyway, I just was like, I love that.
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A
I love that.
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B
You know, people are like, yeah, reading is important. So obviously we think reading everybody.
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A
I've been thinking a lot, because the. The paperback of these summer storms is coming out soon. May 12th. And I got my author copies.
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B
Fun.
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A
And I opened the box and I pulled one out, and it's one of those, like, floppy. Ooh, I love that. Paperbacks.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And listen, I love a floppy paperback.
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B
I know exactly what you're talking about.
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A
Yes, I love a book. And I sent this to Eric. Like, I love a book. That's me. That can get messy. That feels like you can. It's not. This is not a precious book. This is like a floppy book. You throw it in the bottom of your beach bag, you take it to the pool, you. It's okay if it gets stained. It's okay if it gets, like, messed up or scuffed. Like, you can dog ear it. You could break the spine. Like, I. In my. I think one of the things that I'm really struggling with over the last few years in this sort of rise of, like, books as objects, is like, for me, books are not.
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B
They're so.
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A
I'm. I feel so the opposite about my books. Like, write in them, rip them, you know, read them until they're falling apart. Like, it's. Books are meant for that kind of in my. In my feel, my heart of hearts. Like, books are meant to be messed up and really, like, scarred. And so I have this, like, very floppy book. And I've been thinking, like, I want to see. I want to see people, like, reading it in the wild, you know? Yeah, of course. And so I think, like, that's. That's really a sign of. I mean, like, listen. That's not to say listen. There have always been people who are very careful with their books, like, and who deliver you. Who are very careful not to break spines, are very careful never to, like, scuff them or bang them or do anything to them. But, I mean, for Me, the sign of a book well loved is like,
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B
yeah, one that's been through the ringer.
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A
Been through it. You know, I have.
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B
I think I can hold like dropped in the pool. Well, you can't read it anymore then I. I hold. Well, it can be as it dries maybe. Yeah. And it's like seven times its natural size. They actually don't have tons and tons of like special editions or anything.
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A
I.
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B
They have to. I have to really like love a book to want to like buy a physical copy of it, like just in general. But my. Okay, so my librarian at work, I've been talking to about the fact that I have been reading. I've been reading some non romance, everybody. I've been cheating on romance with dungeon crawler Carl. Have you heard about this?
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A
Oh, yeah, of course.
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B
Yeah, right? I mean, everybody's obsessed with it. Okay. And I was like, you know, I think I would like this. And basically what you need to understand about me and I'm sure everybody already intuitively understands this about me, I read romance and then I read another set of books that I like. All kind of fit into what I would call the Reacher box, right? So Reacher and Murderbot and dungeon crawler Carl are all basically like the same, which is like, you know, like a stern, taciturn character, like thrust into extraordinary circumstances who has to just like, you know, like save the day and solve, you know, save the world or whatever. And anyway, so I was like, well, and sometimes it's good for me to take a break from romance, right? Like when I get a little like, I'm like, how can I like just read something different? But I've read all of Reacher and the new Murderbot book isn't out yet, so I've read all of Murderbot. And then I was like, Carl, you're you prince. I love you. So anyway, I am really charmed by it. But I read the first one, it's in Kindle Unlimited. So I've been reading it there. But then my librarian friend sent me this thing that is happening in Chicago at the end of May, on May 24, I will put this link in show notes because I think I'm going to go. And it is at a place called the Goblin Market, which is a manga store. And what they are doing is having a bedazzling your book. But it's dungeon crawling.
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A
Oh God, I've seen these places. Dazzling.
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B
So it's like, it's like we will give you, we will provide you with a brand new original, you know, brand new Hard cover of Dun Crawler Carl. And then you come in and bedazzle it. And I was like, I was literally like, okay, why do I want to do this so much? And I think partly it's just because it sounds fun, like I need to find a friend to go with. But also I think the part of it that also sounds sort of fun is like, I don't know, like, this book is like pure mayhem. There is like a very charming cat in it that because it's magical world has learned to talk and like can charm anybody.
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A
Right. This cat is famous.
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B
Yes. Right. Princess Donut is her name. Anyway, it's been great, but I was really like, it's sort of a fun, like take this book and like bedazzle it is hilarious. So anyway, I might have to go to that.
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A
That's amazing, right?
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B
I'm going to be like, it's going to be a bunch of like romance people invading this event.
- [08:27]
A
Okay, well that's perfect. And then you definitely shouldn't like, you know, throw that off, you know, into the pool. But the, you know, and I think that there are spaces obviously for like great special editions.
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B
For example. For example, right.
- [08:43]
A
The historical special edition that is coming via Kickstarter from age to and fated mates. And like, part of what's cool about that though, part of what I am drawn to about that is, is, you know, as somebody who I've said I'm on the record for like, special editions don't move me. Right. But these books really do move me because no one's ever done it for historical. Yes. And so it feels like I want them to be leather bound and gold foiled and I want these books to have that treatment. Like, I want Indigo to have that treatment. I want Butterfly swords and you know, Derek Craven to have that treatment. And so that's like for me a different thing because I think like, I want special editions. I think like all the best historicals. Obviously I'm. I am the correct voice of which historical should have special editions. I mean, whatever. Like you all, like, everybody deserves to have their favorite books, leather bound on their shelves. This is where I say, like go to show notes and you can click on the link and sign up for more updates on the Kickstarter. But. And then, you know, the other day there was a, there was an auction raising money for, I think like families that have, you know, have people in ice detention and somebody rebound three paperback copies of Bombshell, like in these like stunning, like, they cut off the covers and like built these like hardcover Bindings for them with original art of Tommy. And it was, like, really amazing. I mean, books as works of art, right?
- [10:27]
B
Right.
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A
This did make me think of a story, though. So Eric was telling. Eric is reading this, the book. There's right now this, like, new book that came out, Apple the first 50 years. And it's, like, compiled by David Pogue, who's a tech reporter. It's like 600 pages, hardcover color edition, where, like, it's essentially like, half coffee table book, half biography of the company. Right. And at the beginning, it talks about Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, who are the two guys who, like, got together and made Apple at the very beginning. And apparently Steve Wozniak is, like, a very, very big prankster. And his mom, when he was a kid, was reading the Exorcist when it came out, and, like, she was so, like, terrified of it and also felt like it was like an evil book. And so she was like, this is the most evil book I've ever read. And she threw it off the end of her pier. Of a pier.
- [11:21]
B
Okay.
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A
And so he went to a bookstore, ordered a second, got a second copy, ran it under the faucet and put it on her bedside table.
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B
Okay, that is really messed up.
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A
Oh, my God.
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B
Oh.
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A
But also very funny.
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B
Yeah. That's amazing.
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A
Were you ever a Friends fan?
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B
Yes.
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A
So you know the episode where Joey is like, I put scary books in
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B
the freezer,
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A
and he and Rachel have, like. She's reading the Shining and he's reading Little Women and he, like, there. And so she's like, it's so scary. And that's when he says, like, oh, I just put it in the freezer.
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B
I mean, what. What a dumb man. They talk about, like, the primordial himbo for me, you know, that's also the.
- [12:18]
A
That is the famous scene. That's the famous episode where, you know, she. I forget what even what happens. But he. She and Joey also get into a big argument and to torture, to, like, to win the argument, she screams, Beth dies.
- [12:34]
B
You know, the other thing that's really funny is that I'm like, the book thing I remember from Friends is that there's, like, a whole part where, like, I guess Chandler, like, somebody finds Rachel's like, Harlequin and is, like, this is a dirty book.
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A
You know, And.
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B
And it's just. It's actually. Maybe I'm making that up, but I do sort of remember, like, somebody. I don't remember one of these men finding it and being, like, shocked and appalled by it. And it's.
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A
Anyway, I do think resurrecting the Exorcist. Yeah, that's is pretty great. That's a. That's a pretty great.
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B
Pretty great. I'm not really a prankster, but that to me is really fucking funny. That's pretty great. That's amazing.
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A
Wet. Leaving it wet on your mom's nightstand.
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B
That is. I mean, that's like evil, actually. Like, which I guess, you know, that's Exorcist for you. Like, making us all do crazy things.
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A
This week's episode of Fated Mates is sponsored by Michelle Ruoff, author of A Summer to Stay.
- [13:38]
B
So, everybody, this is the first in a new series from Michelle, the Cedar Falls series. It is set in Maine and she wants you to know this has a big Stars Hollow vibe. So if you're looking for your Gilmore Girls vibe, this is the one for you. Ava Hansen left Cedar Falls and owen Fowler behind 10 years ago, moving to New York, and like, making a new life for herself there. But now she's back. She's grieving for her dad, packing up his cabin and counting the days until she can get out of there. Her plan is simple. Don't stay long, don't reopen old wounds, and definitely don't fall for Owen again. I think we all know how this is going to turn out.
- [14:19]
A
That's definitely not going to work.
- [14:20]
B
Yeah, Owen is a dummy textbook romance hero at this point. He's a devoted single dad, the owner of the town's beloved coffee shop, and the unlikely buyer of the bed and breakfast they once dreamed of restoring to.
- [14:33]
A
No. Come on. So we see Ava. You're cooked, Ava.
- [14:38]
B
Seeing Ava again stirs up everything he thought he'd accepted, including the future he stopped believing was possible. So Ava really has to decide. Is her ambition and this big job back in New York worth the loneliness it costs? Or is the life she ran from the one she's been searching for all along?
- [14:57]
A
Well, listen, if you are looking for a contemporary romance with small town vibes, single dads who are your best friend's brother and a found family, then this one just might be for you. You can get it right now in print, ebook, or with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. And Michelle wants you to know that an audiobook is coming soon. If your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks so much to Michelle Ruffle for sponsoring this week's episode. Welcome to Fated Mates, everyone. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.
- [15:34]
B
And I'm Jennifer Prokop, a romance reader and editor. And Sarah's right. This week we are doing a read along. We haven't done one in a while.
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A
It's a historical read along.
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B
Yes.
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A
So.
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B
And tell us the story about how this came about because someone suggested this to you. Don't you remember? No. Oh, well, okay, let me tell you. Tell the story, Sarah.
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A
Wait, somebody did.
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B
Correct. I think that Rhode island thing must have been.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So Sarah was at that Rhode island thing. That's what, it's official.
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A
It's a really good story, everybody.
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B
And she texted me.
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A
I was at the Linden Place historical like event for historical romance.
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B
Isn't that what I just said?
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A
Yeah, exactly. That Rhode island thing in Bristol, Rhode island, which is, you know, and hopefully they're doing another time. They're doing a second one next year. But. Go on, Jen.
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B
Well, anyway, you texted me and you were like a reader came up to me and said you all should do a read along of the madness of
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A
Lordine Mackenzie and I. We agreed.
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B
Yeah. And you were. And you said, that's a great idea. What do you think? And I said, that is a great
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A
idea because this book is terrific.
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B
This book is terrific.
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A
Yeah. When did you first read it?
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B
You know, I was trying actually to figure that out. I was, I did go back to look to see sometimes I can figure it out, like if I bought it on Amazon.
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A
Right.
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B
Like there's a record of its, of its sale to me. But clearly that is not the case because I did read it in mass market paperback at some point in the 2010s, but I have no idea when that happened. I. And then I think much later in the pandemic, I read the second one, the Scandalous marriage of Lady Isabella Mackenzie. Is that the name of that one? And then I actually downloaded the fourth one about the, the brother Hart, the Duke. But I don't know that I've ever read it. So I was kind of like, oh, that's fun. Shopping. My own Kindle.
- [17:36]
A
Yeah. And Cameron has one too. I mean there are.
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B
Right.
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A
In fact, I think there are five. I think the sun, the next.
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B
More of them. I was sort of looking and I was like, there's a lot of them. Who are these people? They blow out or something? Yeah. A lot of Scots. Yeah.
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A
Just the Mackenzie's like rabbits.
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B
Here's what I will say. I, I, the reason I'm saying I read it in the 2010s. Okay. So it came out in 2009. I did look this up is because I definitely read it before I think of. Before I read the Kiss Quotient. And I bring that up because I think of that book as being kind of like, really, like, naming. This is a neurodivergent autistic woman on page, right? And then that being a huge hit. And of course, like, Ian McKenzie does not. He is clearly neurodivergent, and I think we would all say autistic, but he does not. It's not named. Because that didn't exist. Like, that name, that diagnosis didn't exist. And so I remember when I read. And the reason I'm saying this is what I remember when I read the Kiss Quotient, sort of thinking like, oh, you know, this is pretty. This so great. Right? Like, for so many reasons, I love the book. But also kind of thinking like a lot of people at that time were like, this is the first. You know, maybe it's just they meant the first trad book. Like, who knows, right? Or the first book they had read. And I remember kind of thinking like, yeah, but what about Ian McKenzie? So you know, it.
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A
I had.
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B
I'm only saying this to just say, like, I read it before the Kiss Quotient, I think.
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A
Oh, yeah, I. So I had it. I ordered it from Amazon on September 22, 2010, which. And when I read it the first time. So here's what. So it's a 2009 pub, this book. And what I would say is, here's what I can tell you about the world at that time. So it was published by Dorchester Books back in the day.
- [19:44]
B
What's that? I don't even know what that is.
- [19:46]
A
So Dorchester was a small publishing company that it was like. I mean, it was maybe the size. I don't know. I. I don't. I mean, I don't know the finances.
- [19:58]
B
It wasn't an imprint.
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A
It was its own. It was its own company. And it was Dorchester. And it was sort like Kensington. Yeah. Or Entangled. Like, it was a. It was. It had a lot. It was very respected. Like, people, you know, when you made a list of possible romance publishers in 2009, that was one of them, that Dorchester was on the list. In fact, I think Nine Rules was sent to Dorchester as a. Like, what an editor of Dorchester looked at it and it was edited this. And this is what I know. So at the time, it was sort of a big deal when that book came out. And it was a big deal because it had. And the only reason why I remember this because I looked specifically at the original cover that I owned, which I couldn't find anywhere here. So I was looking online and in the COVID copy for. And so this is the original. The original one. The current version of Ian McKenzie has, like, a lady in a red dress. Like, it's like a clinch, and she's in a red dress. The original version has this, like, pale blue cover that just, like, has the whole. Like, it says Jennifer Ashley, the Madness of the Lord in MacKenzie. And it has, like, a strip. Oh, yes. Of. Of a clinch.
- [21:16]
B
I'll put everybody. If you ever look at. Show notes, like, and it's a book like this often I'll try and, like, track down any of the, you know, the covers. The original versus whatever it is now. Just like, so you can see that
- [21:27]
A
it was a huge deal. Like, it was a big book, and it was a big book. Early in Jennifer Ashley's career, like, she had. I mean, she now has written. She writes under multiple names. She's written, like, probably a hundred books total. She's, like, very well known, as in. In both historical and paranormal. She writes under. We'll put in Allison Asher Archer. I don't remember. We'll put that in. Show notes to everybody. She writes under. Under different names as well. And she just.
- [22:03]
B
Like Alison James and Ashley Gardner.
- [22:08]
A
That's right. And. But this book just. Everybody was talking about it, and everybody was talking about it for lots of different reasons. One, it was incredibly sexy.
- [22:18]
B
Right?
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A
Like, yeah, for the time it was. I mean, this is a book. I mean, at some point, I assume we're going to talk about the word cunning, which feels like there were only two of us who were writing cunning. And it was her and it was Elizabeth Hoyt. And that was really. Although Elizabeth Hoyt really prefers quim, but
- [22:36]
B
we all have our favorite words, Sarah.
- [22:38]
A
Sure. So. And then on top of it, it was like the idea that Dorchester had produced this kind of, like, remarkable book.
- [22:49]
B
Yeah, right.
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A
Was really impressive. Like, felt like, oh, my God. Like, Dorchester was really, like, put. Putting a stake in the ground.
- [23:00]
B
Yeah.
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A
Now, when this happened and Dorchester published this book, it was within. I mean, within minutes, it felt like it was going to.
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B
It.
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A
It was announced that Dorchester was closing.
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B
Oh, interesting. Okay.
- [23:19]
A
And then it was sort of this. This thing where we all sort of felt like, well, what's gonna happen to these Dorchester books? And they had. So Dorchester's romance imprint was. I don't know if it was entirely romance. It might have been romance and horror was leisure books, which might be something that you are more, like, aware of.
- [23:43]
B
I mean, honestly, I'm gonna be honest with you. Probably not. Right. It really wasn't until I started reviewing
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A
that you started that I even started
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B
paying any attention to imprints, I mean, at all. Like. Right.
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A
Like. I mean, I probably had like a
- [23:56]
B
vague sense that, like, oh, Avon. You know what I mean? But, like, only the most vague sense.
- [24:01]
A
Yeah, of course.
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B
Yeah, of course.
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A
So. And then there was. This was the first time that I had ever seen. I mean, I was, you know, 12 and a half years old. It was the first time I had ever seen. My first book was coming out, like, kind of came out right around that time. And it was one of those moments where we were like, none of us had ever seen an imprint close like this. And like, Dorchester and Leisure have been around for 50 years. Like, this was not a fly by night organization. They just couldn't keep the doors open for whatever.
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B
Yeah.
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A
For those of you who. So I. I mean, what's useful for everybody who was around then or like, cares about the names? Chris Keisler was like the editorial director then. He was a man in romance. And, like, as you can imagine, like, romance really loved having a man around. And like, Chris was sort of a figure that you would see at conferences and everybody knew who he was. But the editor of Laura McKenzie was Leah Holtonschmidt, who is now at Forever, like, heading up the romance imprint at Grand Central. She is, I wanna say she's Kennedy's editor. She's Ellie Abby Jimenez's editor. Like.
- [25:18]
B
Yeah, that's like a big name.
- [25:19]
A
Listen, this is a person who, like, romance is in her DNA.
- [25:24]
B
Yeah.
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A
And I remember the first time I ever met Leah, she was working for Dorchester. I think we met at like Lady Jane's Salon, which was this like once a month romance reading series here in the city. We'd meet in this, like, kind of like sketchy, dark, like kind of sexy bar on Houston street that like, if you turned on the lights in that place or brought a black light in there, I think you probably wouldn't have had a great time. But like, we met like every Monday, like every, you know, third Monday of the month or whatever. And I met Leah there and I was. She said she worked for Dorchester. And I was like, oh, my God, I love Ian McKenzie. And she was like, I edited that book.
- [26:05]
B
Wow. And so.
- [26:06]
A
And we talked about how she just. And I'm, I'm. I'm sorry, Leah, if you're listening, but like, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna probably like, miss. I'm gonna Mangle some words you told me. But I, I feel like she told me like she got it in hand and she just knew it was like, yeah, something nobody else had ever done. And like it was so special and it really was, but so Dorchester, I'm, I'm sort of running my mouth in
- [26:29]
B
history here, but listen, if people are tuning into the deep dives, it's for this stuff. Right.
- [26:34]
A
But this kind of also. I feel like it's important when we talk about the history, like we, we've sort of committed as. As faded mace to talk about the history of the genre and like get as much of it spoken as we possibly can. And I feel like this is one of those stories that I never would have thought to tell if not for this book.
- [26:50]
B
Yeah.
- [26:51]
A
So Georchester fell apart and when a publisher dies, everyone, they sell it for parts.
- [26:58]
B
Yeah.
- [26:59]
A
And what's interesting in this case is it was the first time certainly I'd ever seen a publisher fall apart. And other publishers came in and said, I'm Gonna buy these 10 authors backlist.
- [27:11]
B
Yeah.
- [27:11]
A
And so like the authors didn't get offered their backlist back like some of them did. Right. Like if, if nobody wanted your backlist.
- [27:21]
B
Right.
- [27:22]
A
Then maybe you got the offer to have your backlist back. But, you know, this is where Christine Feehan, I think was with Dorchester and like her whole backlist was bought by, by Avon.
- [27:34]
B
I thought she went to Berkeley.
- [27:35]
A
Christine fans, I thought it was a
- [27:36]
B
Burke, I'm pretty sure. Christine fans at Berkeley, even that backlist, I don't know.
- [27:42]
A
But Jennifer Ashley was bought by a. A bunch of Dorchester books were bought by Avon and a bunch were bought by Berkeley. And now Ian McKenzie is at Berkeley.
- [27:52]
B
Yeah.
- [27:53]
A
And I don't know, I mean, I would, I, I haven't, I haven't really thought too hard about it, but I wonder if those later MacKenzie books are also at Berkeley. I'm looking at. It looks like a lot of them are self published.
- [28:10]
B
So.
- [28:11]
A
But anyway, so the Madness of Lord Ian McKenzie has a really beautiful cover, as do all of those sort of early MacKenzie books. I mean, they all have lovely clinches, but. Because when she went to Berkeley, right.
- [28:25]
B
That's what happened.
- [28:25]
A
They rejacketed it and they, you know, made this.
- [28:29]
B
Right, right.
- [28:30]
A
Yeah.
- [28:30]
B
And that's like the one that I read for. Sure. Was the. Sure.
- [28:34]
A
And then we all went and we bought all of them.
- [28:36]
B
Sure.
- [28:37]
A
Because, I mean, who doesn't love a family of big Scottish brutes?
- [28:42]
B
And you have somewhat recently talked about rules for a proper governess on one of theirs. And that's Berkeley.
- [28:51]
A
That was 2014. It looks like the Mackenzie series ends at Berkeley in book eight, which is the stolen MacKenzie Bride. And then book nine, which is Alex. Alec Mackenzie's art of seduction starts probably with, with like self pub from Jennifer. But if this is, any of this is incorrect, please let us know and we'll change. You know, we'll, we'll make notes in the in show notes. But that is what I remember is like this book was sort of swept up and the whole series and it was really sort of devastating. I remember sort of being at RWA and having conversations with other historical writers that like we didn't know what was going to happen to this series. And because it was all happening, you know, Dorchester was shut down in 2010.
- [29:38]
B
Yeah. So right. Like only one book in and it was clearly, I mean, if you read this book, it's clearly setting up like a four book series with the four brothers. Right.
- [29:48]
A
Like there's brothers, all this mystery around, like the Duke and did he kill anybody?
- [29:52]
B
Right. Exactly. This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Jenny Lynn Wire, author of All Our Next Times.
- [30:02]
A
So All Our Next Times is the first in the Fallen Brook series, which is a four book series about the small town of Fallen Brook where love is supposed to be simple. But our heroine has fallen for her two best friends. These three have been in love, or rather she's been in love with Jason and Ryder since she was nine years old. They were inseparable, bound by a friendship that was totally unbreakable when they were kids. And now as they've grown older, their feelings have deepened into something much, much more. This is very complicated because you know you can't be in love with one best friend without it being complicated, let alone being in love with two of them. One of them will hold her heart and the other will never let her go. This is a newly revised version of the book and it is available right now, but you. It ends on a shocking cliffhanger. But the final book will be out this summer, so you can start right now and head through them.
- [31:15]
B
Yeah, exactly. Tee yourself up and get ready. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. And that is available in print, audio and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. Thanks to Jennielyn Wire for sponsoring this week's episode. So the plot of the book is basically that we meet Ian McKenzie as he is buying a like, priceless sort of Chinese bull. Not a vase lord.
- [31:46]
A
A scoundrel style.
- [31:47]
B
Yes, exactly. And the man he's buying it from is this sort of like, kind of really clearly needs money because he is about to marry a, marry an heiress and he wants to really essentially like, you know, it's like really interesting. He's sort of claiming it's one thing, but like, romance readers will understand that what this means is this man is in real dire straits, but he wants to appear to have money in the lead up to the wedding so that then he can like, sort of take over this woman's money and that'll be that. Right, We've all seen this a million times before. But the thing that's interesting is this woman he's about to marry, Beth Ackerley, is an heiress with a very unusual story herself, which is that she was. And again, I, I. There's a lot of great things to love about this, but she was essentially a servant kind of in the household of an elderly woman. And she was her companion. Not like a, like the maid or a cook or whatever. Like she was a, the, the woman's companion. And then this woman died and had no family. And so she left her house in May there and her, you know, £110,000, which I'm assuming is like an insane amount of money to Beth, who, who is now sort of like trying to figure out how to be a lady. So Ian is essentially like clues into like, sort of maybe something's going on with this guy who he clearly does not like. And he then shows up that night at the opera and meets Beth and warns her, has sort of prepared a note in advance that's basically like, you can't trust this guy. He's up to no good. And slips her the note. And this begins sort of their really kind of fascinating and very. And like, drama filled in the way only an old historical can be sometimes. Yeah, romance where, where, you know, there's like a big mystery. And the thing about Ian McKenzie is that everyone in London thinks that he is mad as like per the title because he has, he spent many, most of his like sort of childhood and teenage years in an asylum. And only after their father died, the Duke did hurt his older brother, get Ian out of the, out of the asylum and sort of kind of bring him back into society. And this is something that everybody else sort of treats him then as a bit of a pariah. But Beth is, as someone who is outside of society, doesn't really care about this.
- [34:27]
A
That's all correct. That is how the book begins. That is the setup. And there's a lot of sort of complexity to Beth's past. Like, yeah, she has. Her father was kind of a grifter. Like, he was. He was. Tried to sell himself as a titled person when he didn't have a title. The. You know, which is how. When, you know, her mother died. When he died, and then her mother died. And, like, that's kind of how she got. She was sort of sent to a. An orphanage, and then she became a teacher in the orphanage and then married, like, the owner of, like, the. The headmaster of the orphanage or whatever. And so, like, she sort of has, like, Jen said a real. A real sort of around the house is kind of backstory.
- [35:13]
B
Yeah.
- [35:14]
A
That ends up being. In a lot of ways, like, at first you think this is going to be the. This is going to be the conflict, and then. And it sort of does rise up a couple of times, but the reality is that Beth's. Beth and Ian both are so sort of committed to truth and for different reasons that it's really interesting, the, like, structure of Beth's past because, you know, she doesn't lie. She doesn't. She feels. She tells the truth about who she is to Ian. She feels very, like. It seems very much like. Like Beth is out of. She is. She is like a. She's sort of a fish out of water in this. Like, she's inherited all this money. Everybody's sort of sniffing around. This, like, kind of gross dude has,
- [36:09]
B
like, offered her marriage who.
- [36:12]
A
And she agrees, basically, because, like, she knew him beforehand.
- [36:17]
B
Right, Right.
- [36:18]
A
And then. But, like, the moment she meets Ian, she's like. I mean, it's almost like it doesn't even really matter that Ian's like, this is a bad dude. She's just, like, so into him. And then they start. And before we get into, like, the sexy bits and God knows, like, part of the reason why this book was so great is because it was so sexy. But, like, she really does. She tells him the truth from the jump.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah.
- [36:46]
A
And because he is so unique in terms of personality and so, you know, forthright in terms of personality, like, her truth doesn't even bother. Yeah.
- [37:01]
B
No, exactly.
- [37:02]
A
And he has. And it is said over and over again like, Ian is incapable of lying.
- [37:07]
B
Right.
- [37:07]
A
That's like.
- [37:07]
B
In fact, the plot turns on, essentially, that being true. Yeah.
- [37:11]
A
And so these two people, like, living in their mutual truth becomes the love story here.
- [37:19]
B
Yeah. And I think, like, it's worth kind of talking about Ian then as a character, too, which is it's really so obviously, so the. There's a lot of sort of things that get, like, revealed over time. But his father sent in to the. This asylum when he was 9 or 10. Ian had been kind of willful, right? He obviously had a lot of sensory issues. He would, you know, sort of scream when things were like. He, you know, didn't have a lot of, like, kind of coping strategies. And so his father found him, you know, sort of obviously, like, difficult and strange. Like, there was no. He had no model for, like, why is this child acting this way? But. And it's like, sort of implied throughout, like, the beginning that this is kind of how, you know, Ian got sent away or. Or that's not the way, like, I think readers would assume, like, oh, he was.
- [38:09]
A
His father was family sent him to.
- [38:11]
B
Sure, right. And his behavior was, you know, sort of strange, and they didn't know what to do with it. And therefore, like, they just sent him to this asylum where, of course, all these quacks did all the things quacks do. But about halfway through the book, what we realize is that Ian actually witnessed his father murdering his mother. In a rage, he chokes her to death. And Ian, Ian's father, essentially, like, is getting him out of the way to, like, hide that evidence. Ian can't lie. If someone asked did you see what happened or what, you know, anything about the mother would come up and Ian would sort of say what he would say. And so it's also really fascinating that the, you know, the. The truth of, like, sort of Ian's life is determined not by being autistic, but rather by being, you know, by having witnessed something he. Being somewhere he shouldn't have been and, like, seeing something he shouldn't have seen. I. I wanted to, like, go back for a minute and talk about the word autistic. I think, like, that's what people would use. The book itself, of course, does not diagnose or name this.
- [39:16]
A
But, you know, he has what I
- [39:18]
B
think a lot of people, a lot of readers might consider sort of classic hallmarks. Right. He can't really make direct eye contact. He has, you know. Right. Like, sort of doesn't understand, like, imagery or. Or figures of speech.
- [39:32]
A
Right.
- [39:32]
B
When people are sort of talk around things, he doesn't quite get what's going on. He can't follow multiple people talking at the same time. And. But he also has sort of, you know, like, a preternatural gift for, like. Right. He has photographic memory. He has a, you know, a gift for.
- [39:50]
A
He remembers Every conversation.
- [39:51]
B
Yes, right. Things like that. And so, you know, I think it doesn't necessarily like, matter in terms of that, but it's, it's the kind of the way society thinks of him versus the way he thinks of himself that's interesting. And then what Beth also discovers is that Hart really benefits from his photographic memory. That this is like the work that Ian is doing for his brother is because Heart is like a politician. And so, you know, he will have Ian in the room when they're like sort of negotiating. He'll have Ian looking over contracts because
- [40:26]
A
of course they're extraordinarily high functioning too. Like, and he has, you know, he has a sort of gift for math in the sense that like, if he looks at say a roulette table, he can tell you where the highest, the best odds are of winning. You know, he's, he's a romance hero. He's got 7, 000 terrific like skills, special skills. He's like, right, James Bond.
- [40:52]
B
Sure.
- [40:52]
A
And he's just normal dudes in the 80s.
- [40:55]
B
More importantly, everybody he is really down to. He loves. Oh yeah.
- [40:59]
A
Loves to have a meal.
- [41:00]
B
Very great.
- [41:01]
A
So the other thing that I think is really interesting just to go back to this honesty piece is so, so he is one. He tells her, oh, classic romance hero business. Here he is unable to love her.
- [41:17]
B
Oh.
- [41:17]
A
And it's not about for him. It's not about like, oh, my heart was broken or like it's not an emotional thing. It's just, he's like, I have never, I've been with a lot of women. Yeah. I have some family and I don't love like, I don't know what love is. I don't know how to perceive love. Love is not a thing that I can give you. And she's like, okay. And we're like, haha, dummy. So setting that aside, you know, there's also. We meet him, like Jen said, at this, you know, buying a bowl. But these bowls, like this porcelain comes back, you know, periodically. And one of the things that obviously like this is not literally anybody will see this and see that, like what Ashley is telling us in this, in the story. But you know, he is very keenly aware of worth. Like what a bowl is worth, what a person is worth. Like value is, is a thing that Ian sort of instinctively understands. Yeah. And we see him be very honest. Like he's a very forthright, like, not. This is, this is a person who, he simply cannot be a bad person because like, he cannot be unethical because like, he simply cannot lie.
- [42:32]
B
Yeah.
- [42:32]
A
And there is a moment later, kind of in the book where they go there. You know, there's. There's a bit of this book is in Paris, A bit of it is in London, a bit of it is in Scotland. There's a sort of a hint of Rome. Like.
- [42:42]
B
Yeah, we don't.
- [42:43]
A
We never know sort of where we're going to end up. But he's going. They're going from Paris to Scotland, and they stop for one afternoon in London because he's heard tell that there's, like, this special Ming bowl. And he goes to his dealer and he sees the bowl and he says, bowl dealer is.
- [43:01]
B
I'm sorry. Like, it's so great.
- [43:03]
A
Bowl dealer. And he says, like, it's worth £600 or guinea, 600 guineas. And the bull, the bull dealer is like, what? I was only going to ask you for 300. And he's, yeah, but it's worth six.
- [43:16]
B
So there you go. Yeah.
- [43:18]
A
You know, and then as he's leaving the, like, kind of first villain of the play, Beth's sort of ex fiance is coming in with his bowl, which he was going to trade for it. And Ian sees his bowl and says, like, well, that bowl is twelve hundred dollars or twelve hundred guineas. Like, you would have made a bad deal. And the guy, of course, is just blustery and terrible because he, like, is upset that he didn't see the truth of the value.
- [43:46]
B
Right. But.
- [43:47]
A
And so this is kind of again, like, the way that we come to understand who Ian is. Like, he's about truth. He's about honesty. He's about, like, the true understanding, the. The natural and, like, you know, uninflated value of things. And the second he lays eyes on Beth, he is like, I've never seen anything more valuable than this woman, and I must have her. This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by HarperCollins, publishers of Lori Gilmore's the Daisy Chain flower shop.
- [44:24]
B
Okay, so everybody, if you love, like, a cozy romantic mysteries, and obviously you are probably very familiar with this Dream harbor series by Lori Gilmore. And this is the sixth book, and what we have here is Daisy is the owner of the, like, said flower shop, right? And she's really also. She's fed up with being unlucky in love, but she's unlucky in other ways. When the mayor in town declares that he has had a vision and he believes that her flower shop is cursed. And so now all of a sudden, business is really slow and newcomer to town, Elliot has been adjusting to small town life. He's had his own relationship struggles and basically, like, hears about this vision and thinks, I cannot get anywhere near that flower shop because I have had enough bad luck in my life. I don't need more. But one day he has no choice but to walk through the front door of the shop and doesn't expect this life changing moment because he and Daisy seem to be perfect for each other. So could the unluckiest woman in Dream harbor finally find that love comes when you least expect it?
- [45:32]
A
Well, if you love a small town and a cozy vibe, this sixth standalone romance in the Dream harbor series just might be for you. It is available right now in print, ebook or audiobook. And if your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title to be taken to buy the book. Thanks so much to HarperCollins and to Lori Gilmore for sponsoring this week's episode.
- [45:59]
B
After essentially, Ian tells her the truth about this guy that she's with, almost about to marry, which is basically that he, you know, has some, you know, what Ian considers sort of deviant sexual tastes and keeps a brothel full of women that. That will cater to him. And Beth is sort of like, what's fascinating about this is Beth is actually not shocked by any of that. She seems to actually, because of how she grew up, right? Like, really kind of on the mean streets of London, like, really understand that, like, people have different tastes. And that's not a big deal for her. But what she is really upset about is this sense that she, like, can't really trust her own judgment anymore, that she kind of knew that things were off but just couldn't bear to really look at it. And she's wondering kind of like what's wrong with her that she would have been willing to sort of settle herself to this man, even, like kind of overriding her gut instincts. And she wonders if this is essentially, I think what, like a really interesting thing about this book is that over and over again, sort of high society is presented as being like, morally corrupt, right. Full of liars in every way. And that's why neither. Right. As you said, Beth or Ian can be happy there. So she departs for Paris. She's like, well, I've always wanted to learn how to paint. And you learn to paint in Paris. Who knew? And then so she's, you know, sort of on the strand one day, you know, painting. She doesn't know what the hell she's doing. And she meets Isabella Mackenzie and like,
- [47:30]
A
this is like kind of casual. Sure.
- [47:32]
B
Romance, you Know, romance incident, romance, coincidence. And, you know, and then romance, friendship develops. And because it's romance, white ladies. Isabella is like, why don't you just come stay with me in my home?
- [47:43]
A
Oh, man.
- [47:44]
B
Right, lady. You know, I was always like, you don't even know this woman. But I guess it was a different time and they were rich woman.
- [47:52]
A
Wait, can I tell a story about this? That is. Actually, can I. Can you just pause for a second?
- [47:56]
B
I would. Happy. Happy to.
- [47:57]
A
So I'm right now reading the new. I'm reading. I sound so dorky, everybody. But I'm reading the new translation of the Odyssey, the one by. There's.
- [48:07]
B
I think that's nice. Emily Wilson.
- [48:10]
A
Emily Wilson's new translation of the Odyssey. And it begins with like a hundred. 100 pages of Emily Wilson's like, analysis of the Odyssey. We're basically. And everybody. People are like, men are up in arms about this translation because Emily Wilson, like, is writing it. And she has a different gaze on this text. But one of the things that I think is really interesting that she talks about is this, like, idea of Xenia, like, X, E, N, I, A in. In Greek and in mythology, right? Which is like, stranger as concept, but also, like, the. An idea of, like, friendship in. Embedded in this concept. And it's because prior to. And this is not true of 1881, when this book is. And when Isabella decides she's like, come live with me, but prior to a certain time, like, there were no hotels. There were not. Like, you didn't. Like, if you were traveling, some stranger was gonna have to open their doors and fucking feed you.
- [49:16]
B
Not fuck and feed you, unless you got really lucky. Fucking feed you, everybody. I just want to clarify.
- [49:22]
A
So, like, one of these things that's really interesting is this idea that, like, in these books, when we're talking about, like, long distances and like, what happens between cities, often we are talking about, you know, prior to 1800, we're talking about, like, hopefully someone will simply let us in. And it's interesting because as I was reading this, you know, this sort of preface. I don't think it is a preface, like, but it's, you know, the hundred thousand. The hundred pages that are Emily's in this book, right? This. She has a big section on this, like, idea that Odysseus, as he's traveling, like, one of the ways that we as readers or as, like, listening to these stories, we're learning the mythology of genre carries the myth, right? The mythology of, like, how we interact with strangers. And I was thinking about like the books about the American West.
- [50:25]
B
Right.
- [50:25]
A
Like going west and how we expected, you know, that. How that travel works. Like how you are expected to sort of welcome a stranger, which was bad news bears for Native Americans. For.
- [50:43]
B
Yeah.
- [50:44]
A
Indigenous people. But what's interesting here is. Yes, this in a classic romance white lady fashion, Isabella is not worried at all about.
- [50:54]
B
No. And exactly. Coming to live in way later you find out that like, Beth is wearing earrings that Isabella was like, oh, darling, I just don't look good in them. You take them. You. So everybody just watch out. If I ever come to your house, romance heroine is going to be like, hey, I like these earrings. And it's your job to be like, oh, they look better on you than.
- [51:12]
A
Well, just be like, you know, I'm. I'm traveling in the. In the ancient Greek way. Sure.
- [51:21]
B
So anyway.
- [51:22]
A
Anyway.
- [51:23]
B
But it is, right. It has to be like. Mostly it's like romance coincidence.
- [51:27]
A
Now I was thinking know because we
- [51:30]
B
either last week we had Kate on or next week Kate is coming on and we're talking about books set in Paris.
- [51:35]
A
Oh, yeah. And it didn't even occur to me.
- [51:37]
B
It occurred to me, but I was like, well, I know we're going to be talking about this book, so I'm going to hold it. You know, I'm going to hold.
- [51:42]
A
But it's also not a book about Paris. No. But I did find myself really thinking about.
- [51:47]
B
And maybe this is something I did say that I do think in a lot of historical romances, Paris is more of like a concept kind of like in American fiction. Like New York is. Right. Like you're gonna go to New York and you're gonna find artistic community and you're gonna write like. And I do think that like her decamping.
- [52:09]
A
And it's also like, Cameron's a painter and he's got this muse in his garret and Montparnasse or wherever.
- [52:15]
B
Right, exactly. And. And I think that like, part of what was interesting to me about the like Paris section because they are there actually a really long for like a learner. Yeah. Is that it also is now, like. Right. Like, okay, we are. When we first meet Ian and Beth, they are in London and we see them as outsiders. But then when they get to Paris, it's like a different way they can interact with each other because like, those rules don't quite exist the same way for them. Right. And I did find myself thinking that that's the other thing that like Paris is often kind of a role pair. I mean, like again, like Lord of scoundrels. Like, right, you can be kind of, like, wild and crazy in Paris. There's a way that you can be, you know, I don't know, like, just experience the continent, I guess. And I. And I don't know that that's what Beth is looking for necessarily, but I do think what she is looking for is I don't want to be somewhere where I'm just a prize to be won because of the money I now have in the bank. Right? And so that's going to be Paris for her. But at the same time, we see that Isabella has essentially, like, run away from London in the same way. Right? This is where you go when you're running away, but you're rich and fabulous. So either way, like, what ends up happening is, of course, Ian shows up at the house a couple of times, right? Like, there's all of this kind of talk between them. But the other thing that is, like, introduced at this point is there is a Inspector Fellows who is. Right, the kind of the bad guy who is sort of the bad guy. Yeah.
- [53:58]
A
Annoying police. He's a cop. He's a cop. He's following, like, what? He's a cop with a B in his bonnet? Yes. And he's convinced he's racially profiling Scotsman is what he's doing.
- [54:13]
B
Well, not any Scotsman. The Mackenzie brothers, right? They're all bad. Yeah, they're all bad in different ways. And this guy's, you know, convinced he's going to be the one to bring them down. And in particular, there's been a murder back in London, and Ian clearly knows something about it. Well, one murder happened a long time ago, a woman named Sally, a couple years earlier. And then there was a murder of a woman named Lily that has been very recent. And Ian clearly has some knowledge of it because he was trying to protect Lily.
- [54:45]
A
And he was there, right?
- [54:47]
B
And he was there somehow. He saw the scene. And Fellows goes to Beth and is basically like, you are hanging out with these people who I think did this, and she's basically like, what's your jurisdiction? Get the fuck out of here. And it's also great to, like, see how. I mean, she's just a great character. And this is, to me, kind of when I really started to look like, really appreciate just how. I don't know, she just has a lot of street smarts. Essentially is, like, how I would describe this about someone now, right? Like, she's someone who doesn't really take a lot of. And she can tell that, like, Something is really up. That there's no way that this cop could be like over in Paris, you know, trying to do what he's doing, that he has his own agenda, whatever that is. Right.
- [55:36]
A
Well, Annie asks her marry him. Yes.
- [55:39]
B
Which is so weird. Ian has also asked her to marry him.
- [55:42]
A
Everybody wants.
- [55:43]
B
Everybody wants to marry Beth.
- [55:44]
A
I mean, it's interesting, right? Because one of the other things, like there is nothing. Like at the beginning of this book, we sort of perceive Beth through her own eyes.
- [55:56]
B
Yes.
- [55:57]
A
And she seems pretty ordinary throughout. Through her own eyes.
- [56:01]
B
Yes.
- [56:02]
A
And suddenly it's like everyone in their mother wants to marry her. And. And the. And they're all like, well, the first one wants to marry her because she has, you know, 10 million, like current day dollars, like suddenly bank account. Right. So that. That's understandable. But then it's like Ian sees her and like, can't deal. He's like, I must. I want to grab it. Right. And then.
- [56:28]
B
And I guess, you know, it's funny
- [56:30]
A
because my take on that says to her, like in the first. In their first meeting, he's like, I just want to eat you out.
- [56:37]
B
Whoa, dude. And he's. I guess basically he's like, if you're a real lady, the only way that can happen is if we get married. So. And she's like, tempting offer, but pass, but weird, right?
- [56:48]
A
And then like in comes this cop who's like, I want to marry you too. And she's like, what? And he's like. He's like, but I like being a police officer. So like, I'm not really in it for the money. You could do what you want. Let's just get married. And I'm like, what is going on? Yeah, but obviously what's going on is Beth is super hot.
- [57:07]
B
Yeah. That's really all you need to know about that. So.
- [57:13]
A
But plus, by the way, plus sized everybody. One of the, like early. An early historical plus sized character.
- [57:22]
B
It's really. I was really fascinated too by like the many ways in which Beth is a real, like her story. And also she herself is kind of hyper aware of the way that like, women just don't really get to be in charge of their own lives. And so through like a, like essentially the. They leave Paris after Bethany and get married. And the reason they get married is because they end up kind of running away from the inspector. Right. Like they end up in a, you know, hotel for the night, whatever it's called. And I think they do it.
- [58:00]
A
That's what they do. It's the first time they actually had penetrative sex.
- [58:04]
B
They've done a lot, they've done a lot of other stuff.
- [58:06]
A
Listen, Ian's got his head under this lady's skirts whenever, all the time. Get enough.
- [58:11]
B
And the love, yeah. Inspector Fellows shows up the next morning and like Ian essentially has like sort of figured out, like Cameron or the servant comes and sort of figures this out and Ian's like, well, we're just gonna have to get married. Don't worry, I've got a priest here to marry us.
- [58:28]
A
And he doesn't really tell her anything. He's just like, don't worry about it. Now there's a priest, we're getting married. Like it's a little bit, it's a heavy, it's heavy handed on his part.
- [58:35]
B
It's sumptuous. But then the. Then Inspector Fellowes comes in and is basically like, well, I'm going to charge Ian with kidnapping you. And it's that moment where Beth is like, but I'm telling you that didn't happen. And he's like, well, you just don't even know what happened. What has happened to you.
- [58:53]
A
Men don't. Women don't know.
- [58:54]
B
Women don't know. And Ian's like, well, I can't kidnap my own wife, so, ha ha, joke's on you. And then what' actually kind of hilarious is the rest of the book. Everyone keeps Calling Beth Mrs. Ackerley, including Hart, which is the older brother, the duke. Such a dick. And he's so the whole time everyone wants to marry her. And then she finally gets married to Ian and no one ever calls her Lady Mackenzie.
- [59:16]
A
No, she's like roaming around yelling at everybody for not calling her.
- [59:20]
B
She's like, listen, in fact, I am
- [59:22]
A
Mrs. McKenzie and Mackenzie.
- [59:25]
B
Yeah, I would say I think we should talk about the sex now because, you know, we kind of. They got married and then we talk
- [59:30]
A
about the plot because it's bonkers.
- [59:32]
B
Well, as you can tell.
- [59:34]
A
Yeah. All right, let's talk about the sex. Ian McKenzie's great at it, everyone.
- [59:38]
B
He.
- [59:39]
A
He is, he is DTF.
- [59:44]
B
He really is. Yeah, that should be our title. Ian McKenzie.
- [59:48]
A
DTF is DTF. So I, I mean, what's interesting about the sex though in this book is he's like clearly obsessed with her. He has. He also, like for all. Because I think in a lot of ways, like, he is because of his, like, penchant for honesty and truth. Like, he doesn't have a sense of like kink being, you know, shameful or like, he likes what he Likes.
- [60:18]
B
Right.
- [60:19]
A
And, like, later, it becomes clear that, like, heart has a sort of very particular kink. There's a lot of kink, actually, in this book. The first.
- [60:27]
B
The.
- [60:28]
A
The first guy that she's engaged to has, like. Likes to be, like. He has, like, several dominatrixes, like, on call at all times. Heart likes to dominate, like, and then. And Ian, like, just likes to get out under there and, like.
- [60:48]
B
Yeah.
- [60:49]
A
Get things done. And it. And it's great because what's. I mean, it does sort of have a sort of classic 2010 argument, which is like, she. Beth likes sex. Yeah.
- [61:00]
B
Her. Her husband.
- [61:02]
A
She loved her husband even.
- [61:04]
B
He was a vicar.
- [61:05]
A
Everybody was a vicar. But felt like she should know that sex was nice.
- [61:10]
B
Yes.
- [61:10]
A
And could feel good. But, like, she's never. She's never gone. They've never. She's never had oral sex in either direction.
- [61:18]
B
Yeah.
- [61:19]
A
And so there's, like. There's this moment where they're, like, in a carriage. And I think this is so funny because it's a perfect, like, historical moment. Right. Where they're in a carriage. And he sort of says something like, you know, we could. We could have some fun in this carriage. And she's like, well, what. What if we got into a carriage accident and then I wasn't wearing my underpants. Right.
- [61:41]
B
Like, that's so funny.
- [61:44]
A
And so he's like. She's like, I would like to see you naked. Because. But at this point, like, he's seen her plenty of time. Like, he's turned all. All the different parts of her in various stages of undress. And. And she's like, I haven't seen you. And he's like, well, what would you like to see? And she's like, well, I would like to. I don't know. And he's like. He's like, come get it. What would you like to see? I. All my clothing has unfastenings. Yeah. Like, and so she unbuttons his pants, and then in this. And then is like, here's a penis. I'm gonna explore it. And it is a really great. Listen, there's fellatio in a lot of books everywhere. Yeah. This is a really great.
- [62:28]
B
Yeah.
- [62:28]
A
Bj. Like, it's a really fun scene to watch, to read.
- [62:32]
B
Yeah.
- [62:33]
A
Because she's, like, really excited to do it.
- [62:37]
B
Yeah.
- [62:38]
A
And often, I think, like, when we're. When we're reading sex, especially now, like, sex in books feels very perfunctory. First they do this, and then they do this, and then they do this, and, like, it doesn't mean it's not sexy, but it's, like, there's very little surprise on the page. Right. And I think in this particular book, and I don't know if it's because when I read it, it felt sort of extra sexy at a time when, like, books were not as sexy as they are right now or if it's just like the special. The, like, the really special work of Jennifer Ashley in this scene. But, like, this scene is hot. But it's hot because it's exploratory. Because you can sort of see Beth experiencing something she's never experienced in. Experienced before and taking real, like, intellectual pleasure in it too.
- [63:28]
B
All right. You sort of were saying, like, sex in a lot of books now is, like, perfunctory. I also think it's very much like, it's been sort of tropified. Right. Like, I'm gonna put in these, like, sex acts so that. Yeah, right. He comes in his pants, he says, you know. Right.
- [63:45]
A
And.
- [63:45]
B
And there's a way in which, like, the reason that feels perfunctory or not interesting is because it's not really driven by the characters. It's driven by the reader. Right. We're gonna. We're doing this because it's what the reader wants or what will please the reader or what will make the reader put my book on the list of, like, top 10 books where he comes in his pants. You can hear in my voice, I hope, the disdain I have for this is, like, a thing. Because when instead, your sex scenes are driven by the characters and who they are, that is when you get this, like, thrill of discovery. Right?
- [64:20]
A
Not. Not.
- [64:20]
B
Right. Like, this sense of them really. Like, you know, again, this is why sex and romance is important. It's because they are discovering something about who. Who they are as people by doing this together. This is like the magic of romance. And so it's like these moments, and then, you know, like, for Ian, I would say, like, there is. It is like, the first time he is able to meet her eyes is after. Like, they have some kind of sex and she. And he. It doesn't last for long. He, like, sort of looks away immediately. But there is something incredibly powerful about this moment for. For her and for him too. Right. Like, he's never in his point of view, but we understand that. Like, if he was so, you know, at the very end, he talks about it. But, like, at that moment, if he's meeting her eyes, it's. It's because something. His whole world has been rocked and So I think, like, that to me is part of why, like, these sex scenes really hit. It's not just because, like, they're fun and plentiful and that they're. They have a great time together.
- [65:23]
A
Right.
- [65:24]
B
Like, this isn't a book about, you know, sort of him being like, don't worry, I've learned all these things at the brothels. Let me show you. Right. She. It's been a long dry spell for her. She has not done much since her husband.
- [65:35]
A
Seven years.
- [65:36]
B
Right. But she is into it too. And in together they are like making this new world with each other. And it's the sex that allows them to do that. And I think for Ian especially, one of the things about, right. Like at the beginning or like, you know, he's like, I can't love because I have done these. I've had sex with people. I have paid women to be with me. I'm never with that. But I, you know, it's never been anything more.
- [66:02]
A
And now we see that it is
- [66:04]
B
something more for him.
- [66:05]
A
Yeah.
- [66:06]
B
Right. This is one of the many, like, kind of pathways that are like, you know, that he's like, sort of traveling down and realizing like, oh, I. In fact, this is different. This is different for me. The way I'm thinking about her, what things I want to do with her, how thrilled I am to like, sort of push her boundaries. And that therefore is pushing mine. It's. It's spectacular. And I think that that's just like a really. I mean, so it's like really, these are fun scenes.
- [66:37]
A
They are. That's. That's really what it is. Like, everybody's enjoying themselves, including you. Like.
- [66:43]
B
Right. But it's also like doing incredible character work.
- [66:46]
A
Yes, agreed. And I think that there's this really interesting piece which is the side characters, like all the secondary characters, at least in the Mackenzie family. Right?
- [66:56]
B
Yeah.
- [66:57]
A
And her. And her. Her like companion Katie are all kind of like two of your fudgeing hot for each other. Like.
- [67:04]
B
Right.
- [67:05]
A
Go be hot for each other. Like, nobody here is going to judge you. Right. Isabella is like constantly like, oh, I don't really feel like going for a carriage ride.
- [67:13]
B
You know, like, you guys go together, you guys go have a nice time,
- [67:17]
A
you know, and then Cameron is sort of like, you know, oh, I have to paint this painting. So, like, you have five days together alone. Like, everybody's sort of like, like, it doesn't matter. None of the stupid rules of society are relevant to the MacKenzie's because they've had so many terrible things happen to them. There's so much scandal sort of brewing around them. And I guess this is the part where we should probably start talking. Talk about the rest of the family. Right. Which is for all of the, like, history that I told you about this book. You know, what you said is true, Jen. Like, it's very clear that we are looking at, like, multiple books being teed up.
- [67:52]
B
Yeah. Right.
- [67:53]
A
We have Cameron, the, you know, the painter whose wife. And who's estranged from his wife, but who isn't far from her. And, like, they seem to, like, not be able to avoid each other, despite the fact that, like, something terrible has clearly happened between them.
- [68:09]
B
Yeah.
- [68:11]
A
And then there's Heart. Right. The Duke, who is at. When we first meet him, in his own point of view, by the way.
- [68:17]
B
Yeah.
- [68:19]
A
Is like, how dare some woman come and marry Ian. Right. Yeah. And then he goes home to Scotland. We discover, ultimately kind of tells Ian's, like, you know, right. Totem that he wants that he, like. Ian has the kind of, like, second in command who's magical, like, does everything he needs to do.
- [68:45]
B
And he.
- [68:46]
A
He basically tells Ian, second in command, like, get thee to Scotland. Everybody has to come home.
- [68:51]
B
Yeah.
- [68:52]
A
And so when they get to Scotland, you meet Hart, who is a monster, a jerk.
- [68:58]
B
He's so terrible. And of course, I was like, I can't wait to read his book. Yeah.
- [69:02]
A
You just want him to be taken down every single fucking peg. And, like, it's told. And. And of course, she, Jennifer Ashley, knows the job.
- [69:10]
B
Right.
- [69:10]
A
Like, yeah, Heart, first wife, who was a quiet mouse, died in childbirth. Like, he was devastated or, like, became a monster after that. Like, what?
- [69:22]
B
Yeah.
- [69:23]
A
What could it be? Right. And then it becomes clear that, like, Hart has this mistress who is a kind of known, very skilled courtesan in London. And here we start to get. So this is like, we're. I don't know, 2/3 of the way through, maybe 70% of the way through. And Heart, we're in. We're with Heart. Like, Heart really doesn't trust Beth at all.
- [69:52]
B
Right.
- [69:54]
A
Every. And then it starts to become clear, like, something is going on. Like, Heart and Ian have a very sort of strained relationship. But, like, is it just that he doesn't want. He doesn't trust Ian to, like, not be returned to the asylum? Like, we don't. There's a lot of sort of question marks related to Hart and Ian's relationship. And also we have Scotland Yard sort of coming for them with this idea that Ian. Scotland Yard believes that Ian has killed these two women. And the story comes out that, like, in fact, Ian and Hart were with, you know, the woman who was killed years ago, Sally. And they did, you know, Ian was in her room privately and then Hart was in her room. And then like, suddenly she was dead. And it becomes clear that each thinks the other.
- [70:49]
B
Other one did it. Which I did. Love this. I'd sort of forgotten this part of the plot.
- [70:53]
A
Me too.
- [70:54]
B
Like, that's sort of like we're both trying to protect the other one because we're like, we're Mackenzie's. No one knows what we are capable. Capable of more than us. Right.
- [71:03]
A
Except there's. And it's really lovely. I mean, it's not lovely, but it's lovely in the writing of it because also feels like Beth sort of comes to discover this, Right.
- [71:12]
B
Like she's.
- [71:13]
A
Yeah, she's can't leave well enough alone. She's a real classic romance heroine.
- [71:18]
B
Right.
- [71:18]
A
Who's like, I'm gonna figure it all out on my own. Right. So she's like, traipsing about around London, like, trying to sort of figure out what happened to Sally and then to l. The like the newer.
- [71:31]
B
The newer murder victim. Yeah.
- [71:33]
A
And. And she sort of discovers this. And in the discovering, it's be. It's made clear that Hart really believed that Ian was capable of this.
- [71:47]
B
Yeah.
- [71:48]
A
On his own.
- [71:49]
B
Yes.
- [71:51]
A
And Ian thinks Hart did it by accident. And so, like, there is a kind of moment where you're like, oh, Hart doesn't actually think Ian is like.
- [72:06]
B
Well, yeah. Right.
- [72:08]
A
And Beth is pissed.
- [72:09]
B
Yeah. She's really angry and she should be
- [72:13]
A
because, like, the betrayal. There's sort of this moment of really seeing. And again, it's like it's the time that the book was written and it's the author. This is a real. A book that like, kind of takes the finger on the tee up of Hart's book in the sense that, like, Heart is not the best person. He doesn't. He's not a good brother. Like, in the sense that he's like, I don't want Ian to go back to the asylum. That's nice. But like, I believe you are capable of murdering a sex worker.
- [72:44]
B
Yeah. Is a Right.
- [72:47]
A
Not the greatest way of feeling about your sibling who we all know couldn't do that. Like, it's just simply not in his character. Well, and it's interesting though, because Ian
- [72:59]
B
also fears that he is capable of it.
- [73:02]
A
Right.
- [73:02]
B
After seeing his father murder his mother.
- [73:05]
A
Right.
- [73:05]
B
He is sort of convinced that there is like some sort of deep well of Anger in him that, like, essentially his rages. And he thinks, like, well, I must be like my father. My rages must be. Come from that same place as opposed to, you know, my rages actually weren't rages at all. And I think it's best.
- [73:23]
A
Well, he's tortured in the asylum. Yeah. It comes to be clear. It's made clear. And, like, I mean, this is really. This is a real hallmark of Jennifer Ashley. Like, Jennifer Ashley tortures her heroes and her heroines, but, like, she is not afraid of going to a very dark place emotionally.
- [73:41]
B
Yeah.
- [73:42]
A
And it becomes clear that, like, when Ian was in the asylum, he had a friend.
- [73:47]
B
Yes.
- [73:48]
A
Who was. Was committed for being gay. And this friend, who was. Had no reason to be in this asylum, had an erotic book. And it was discovered, and Ian. But this guy was so ill in the hospital and fragile that Ian took the fall for this book and was a B. Was, like, subsequently tortured.
- [74:16]
B
Yeah.
- [74:17]
A
With electroshock therapy. For being in possession of this book.
- [74:21]
B
Yeah. And I mean, it's clear that this happened. But also, just as a matter of course, everyone.
- [74:26]
A
He was tortured forever by everybody.
- [74:28]
B
Right.
- [74:28]
A
This is a particular. Like, how did the headaches start? They started with this, like, electroshock.
- [74:33]
B
Yes.
- [74:35]
A
Quote therapy. So then, anyway, so all of this is going on. Heart's not a very good brother. Like, there's sort of a revelation. There's, like. And then it becomes, like, clear. Beth sort of figures out, like, oh, no. Sally and Lily knew each other.
- [74:49]
B
Yes.
- [74:50]
A
And not only they know each other, they were lovers.
- [74:52]
B
They were lovers. Right.
- [74:53]
A
So somebody killed both of these women intentionally. Like, it was like they realized there was a connection and killed both of them.
- [75:01]
B
Yes.
- [75:04]
A
And then it sort of, like, moves into a real, like, soap opera E.
- [75:10]
B
Like, oh, yeah, for sure.
- [75:11]
A
Christy Turney ending. Right. It did.
- [75:15]
B
I. You know, and listen, I was sort of fine with it.
- [75:18]
A
Like, this book is also, like, it's written out of 10. Like, it's like, everything's dialed up to 10 on this. So I'm with it, too.
- [75:26]
B
Like, I was really interested. One of the things I was really interested in, the fact was, like, okay, so remember, Beth at the beginning says, I'm gonna go to Paris because I want to learn how to paint. And Cameron is the painter in the family. But it's very clear that, like, Beth actually has a real eye and is very interested in, like, art herself. So the way she sees paintings plays, like, a key part in the, like, sort of role at, like, kind of a. Like, a bunch of big events at the end of the book. But so, you know, there's like paintings in the, like, family home in Scotland where it's like, you know, on this landing it's like the previous Duke and I'm. This landing, it's the Duke before that. And you know, so she, you know, of course, most people be like, yeah, I go up the stairs and I'm seeing my grandparents. But like, these are met, you know, especially the father. This is a man who tortured essentially his own son by having him committed. And, you know, Beth is really like outraged by that. Like, she's able to sort of like there's this great thing in this book which is that like every painting really is the truth. You know, there's a part where Isabella shows her the painting that Cameron painted of her on their wedding night. And, you know, it's like a nude of her. It is kind of like, I don't know if I'd be showing friends my nudes, but okay, you know, it's a different time. And in this painting, Beth is able to see what Isabella can, which is like, Cameron's in love with you. No, I've seen his other work and I see this work and that tells me that, like, the feelings he has for you are real.
- [76:52]
A
And I think, like, it's a nice
- [76:54]
B
connection to the way Ian is so connected to art.
- [76:57]
A
Right.
- [76:57]
B
For him, it's these bowls. There's a way in which I, like, I'm really interested in like Beth's eye for the world. Right. And I think that they're like, the book is really does a great job of, I don't know, like, just showing that, like, her interest in the murder, like sort of solving this murder isn't just like a one off. Right. Like, yes, it is obviously driven by her feelings for Ian, her love for him and her determination to sort of basically like make it so that these, these cops, like Scotland Yard, has to leave them alone. But it is really very much relies on like sort of us understanding that Beth is a person who has always been a keen observer of humanity and human nature.
- [77:44]
A
Yes.
- [77:45]
B
Because of the way she was raised. And she can do that without judgment and that she is in that way, like very much like the flip side of Ian who can do the same thing. But he is essentially been called mad because of it. And she is, you know, I mean, I just, I don't know, I felt that the book was saying, I think something really interesting about like, I don't know, the skills we develop as coping strategies and when they're rewarded or when they are lauded versus when they are, you know, seen as being evil, bad, wrong.
- [78:24]
A
Yeah, I think that's true. I also think this book is saying a lot about class.
- [78:29]
B
Oh, absolutely.
- [78:31]
A
And I know that class. I feel like all historicals are about class.
- [78:35]
B
Yes.
- [78:37]
A
And arguably, probably most romances about class.
- [78:40]
B
But.
- [78:42]
A
But I think that it's saying a lot about class in the. In the Len. Through the lens of, like, if the sort of suggestion is if Beth were anything other than who she is, she would have. They would not have solved this. Like, they would not be safe. Right. Like, the money is so irrelevant to Beth. Like, her having the money feels. It actually initially feels like Beth's like, oh, now I have to deal with all this. Right.
- [79:17]
B
Yeah.
- [79:18]
A
And then. But ultimately, like, the money has no bearing on her character whatsoever. And even. But also it's sort of. There's this. There's this real sense of, like, Beth is a working girl. Like, not working girl, like sex worker, but like, oh, she, like, is a person who.
- [79:36]
B
Yeah.
- [79:38]
A
She interacts with the world in a way. In a very particular way.
- [79:42]
B
Yeah.
- [79:43]
A
And that way is, you know, too. It's tactile and it's immersive and it's, you know, her engagement with people and places. Like, even when she's like, I'm heading off to Covent Garden to figure out what the fuck is going on.
- [80:00]
B
Right.
- [80:00]
A
Like, it. It's not like I'm gonna. I'm gonna, you know, put on a costume and pretend to be part of that world. She's just like, this is very comfortable. She's comfortable.
- [80:13]
B
She's comfortable with it. It's not even a big deal.
- [80:15]
A
Yeah, exactly. And I think that that is also kind of. It's interesting because I think the MacKenzie's too. Like, the only MacKenzie who really cares at all about, like, class is Hart, who is like, you know. You know, she's like, I have a. I have a hundred thousand pounds. And he's like, well, Ian has 10 times that, so it's still important. And she's like, yeah, but it's not, though. Like.
- [80:42]
B
Yeah.
- [80:43]
A
And I think money is really the. The discussions of money are really interesting in. In this book. Like, I think this is a book that sort of flattens the discussion of class on the page in a way that makes it. That really underscores what we're doing here.
- [81:01]
B
Yeah, I was really interested. The part I think that I was really interested in is that. Okay, so in terms of Beth's relationship to the woman she worked with. And I can't remember her name right now, though. She talks about it over and over.
- [81:14]
A
Bertelsman, Bemelsman, whatever it is.
- [81:16]
B
I get something she's constantly, like, sort of talking about. Well, so and so thought this. I think that in terms of, like, her relationship to that woman, she was played the ra. The role essentially of, like, Curry. And Curry is Ian's valid. And one of the things that is really well done is that once she sort of becomes part of the family or, like, starts to get to know Ian better, the way they talk about Curry and what Curry's job is and the things Curry does and that Curry is good at and the problems Curry will sort of solve without anybody even having to tell him. Beth is really uncomfortable with it. Right. She is over and over again sort of like noticing how they talk about Curry.
- [81:58]
A
Yeah.
- [81:59]
B
And it's not that hard to imagine. It's because that must have been the way that people talked about her. Her. Right. And yet there's a time at the end where she sort of like, sort of she and Curry, or she's like, you know, like, I'm like, you. And Curry's like, come on, come on. Now. That's not true. Because at that point, at the point where you actually do have a hundred thousand pounds in the bank, you are not like Curry anymore. And I think that's the part that is, like the class part that's really interesting for Beth is like, her knowledge of kind of the real world is something that helps her solve this problem. Right. Kind of figuring out what all the things that happened. And it's what makes her not afraid of, you know, Inspector Fellowes. It's what makes her kind of really valuable to Ian and the rest of the family.
- [82:53]
A
It's just she's feeling for herself for her whole life.
- [82:58]
B
Life, yes.
- [82:59]
A
And there's something very powerful about that, like, that it separates her out as a care, as a heroine in romance. Like, often we see, like, the scrappy heroine. I mean, I've written her too, right? But, like, are you really scrappy if you've been like. If you're. You're used to having, like, you know, you have a safety net to the tune of millions of pounds and power. Right. But Beth is. Because that's who she is. Not. Because, yeah, this, like, windfall of money has not changed her.
- [83:35]
B
Right.
- [83:37]
A
In her mind, like, I mean, obviously she's different to Katie.
- [83:41]
B
She's different.
- [83:42]
A
But, you know, I also think. I think a lot about. In the early days of writing historicals, I remember my editor saying to Me, like, you know, you. You know, you have to watch out for. For servants. Right. Like, because if characters talk too much to their servants.
- [83:59]
B
Yeah.
- [84:00]
A
It starts to ring false.
- [84:03]
B
Yeah.
- [84:03]
A
And it's interesting because at the time I can remember sort of really grappling with that. Like, what does that mean? Right. There's something, like, deeply American about. And also, like, middle class and bourgeois about, like, talking to your servants.
- [84:15]
B
Yeah.
- [84:16]
A
And. And I think. And I think, like, I struggled with. With that for a long time. Like, what does it mean that, like, if you put a servant for. On page for too long, it. The reader, like, rubs up against it. And I think this is an interesting conversation. Like, this is a book where servant class is sort of. Yeah.
- [84:39]
B
Is there?
- [84:40]
A
And present. Well, that's because. And not in a weird way, like in a. In a believable way.
- [84:47]
B
Right, well, and I think it's believable. Like, what we see here is that Curry and Katie are, like, really instrumental to like, steering these two towards, like, sort of be like kind of more acceptable behavior.
- [85:04]
A
Yeah. Well, it also makes sense that Beth would be interested in them, care about them, talk to them.
- [85:09]
B
Of course. Of course. Right. Whereas Ian does not really seem as aware of, like, the ways that Curry. The. The very many ways that Curry, like, kind of like, makes his life easier, but also probably unaware of the ways that Curry. Curry's real boss's heart. Right.
- [85:29]
A
Yeah. And it's thought. It's interesting in the sense that. But it is interesting that we don't. She doesn't talk about servants. It. In any other cases in this book. Right. Like, she's so focused on, like, Beth has Katie and. And Ian has Curry.
- [85:49]
B
Right.
- [85:50]
A
And you never see a footman or, like, in anything anywhere else. Like, it's. It is really like a lens through, like, the lens we are looking at servants is a very particular one.
- [86:00]
B
Yeah. I think the only exception is the. The housekeeper. There's a word like the cook.
- [86:06]
A
And.
- [86:06]
B
And you know, and it's later in the book when, Remember when Beth has essentially gone out to, like, her old neighborhood, asked for information. The working girls, one of the sex workers. Yeah. And the woman. And that woman is like, oh, I know somebody who might know something. I'll send her to you. And the. The cook or the housekeeper won't let her in. She's on the back stairs with Kat. Because this housekeeper, even though this woman has, like, married and has become, like, sort of respectable, like, the housekeeper can tell. And what that kind of reminds me of is.
- [86:39]
A
Did you ever read the book
- [86:42]
B
God. It was the book by Emma Cline with the green cover. Okay? So the book I'm talking about is called the Guest. And in this book, there's a woman who. A young woman who is essentially, like, scamming her way through the Hamptons, through Purdies and the Hamptons, and none of the rich people can sort of tell that she's a scammer. And it's not until she gets to a home with like. Like one, like, essentially she kind of befriends like a. One of the servants or whatever who was like, yeah, yeah, I knew all along that you were scammer. I knew you were more like me. And it's just like really fascinating part where, like, in that moment, right, this housekeeper or cook in Beth's home has a better sense of, like, who these people are. That. Right? And I. I always did, like, I always like that, right? Like, that if you are someone who works for very rich people, that you probably have a very finely tuned sense of, like, who. Who it. Who is really one of that world, who is really a part of that world and who isn't. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, in terms of, like, the ending, there is just like a lot of drama. The murders, there's a lot right?
- [87:48]
A
Together. Yeah.
- [87:50]
B
Inspector Fellows comes back and, you know, there's just a ton going on.
- [87:54]
A
And then Lee. Ian, you know, does sort of. I love the moment where he says, like, is. Is this what love feels like?
- [88:03]
B
Because I don't like it. Well, because Beth is injured, right? Of course. The very thing that he was most worried about, of course, that she would be injured.
- [88:11]
A
And she is.
- [88:12]
B
There's an amazing sick bed scene, right, where he's just like, you know, devastated and reading all the books he can about how to treat ill people. And it's 1881, so, like, there's, you know, actually some decent information out there
- [88:24]
A
and some actual doctoring can happen, inspection,
- [88:27]
B
you know, infections and all. But, you know, when she. I will say this one of my favorite. Like, okay. Like, okay, everybody. She's basically been in a coma for a week or something. And she wakes up and they're like, sort of talking. And she, you know, she understands that he has been devastated and really freaked out. And, like, there's a point at which he wants to kiss her and she's like, I must be disgusting. But then she, like, gets turned on. And I was like, no, listen, you literally have been in your coma. I don't think you come out and you're like, oh, like. Like now I'M feeling it between my legs.
- [89:01]
A
Probably. Whatever. It's romance coma.
- [89:04]
B
Romance. It's romance coma. Okay, good point.
- [89:07]
A
But anyway, having written a million, like, she might be dying, and now she's awake and let's bang it out in this. In this room in the middle of nowhere. That's romance sickness.
- [89:20]
B
Yes, of course.
- [89:21]
A
Romance Health says that the first thing. That.
- [89:24]
B
That's the first thing to come back online. Vaginal wetness.
- [89:30]
A
And also, I should say there is that sort of lovely moment where Heart says to him, like, because Beth. Beth really tears a strip off of Heart.
- [89:39]
B
Yeah, she does.
- [89:40]
A
Like, how dare you. All you do is use him. Yeah. And you think so poorly of him, because at one point, Hart is like, he is mad. He is mad. And she's like, no, you. And also you for using him for your businesses and your contracts and your money and your books. Like, you suck. Yeah.
- [90:04]
B
And you know what's great is, like, Heart, I think, like, these two, these four dummies, these brothers, have no idea how to, like, be kind or love each other.
- [90:11]
A
No. And then when he. I love you.
- [90:13]
B
I guess you're right. I was.
- [90:15]
A
But he says he couches it as, like. I guess it might be unmanly, but I do love and, like, did laugh.
- [90:23]
B
It's amazing. A plus. Yeah.
- [90:27]
A
And then you sort of feel to yourself, like, all right, well, here's a little, like. A little, like, crack in the armor for Heart, who is hopefully going to get, you know, taken apart by some woman later in the series.
- [90:40]
B
Yeah. Well, and it's, like, even mentioned at the end. Right. Like, the woman who got away, that he's gonna finally go, yeah, his first love. Right.
- [90:47]
A
Eleanor, Eileen or something. She. It begins with an e. Sure. Anyway, listen. And the rest of the series is really fun. Like, these guys keep coming back. Beth's around. Ian, I'm sure, is just having a meal. Every single book.
- [91:02]
B
Sure. Collecting his bowls, having a meal, dealing with contracts and negotiations.
- [91:07]
A
I'm particularly fond of when she's like, what about a Ming vase? And he's like, I don't know anything about vases. I only know about bowls.
- [91:15]
B
I know. It's so great. It is. It really is.
- [91:19]
A
It's just a very, very, like, It's a great book. Terrific historical that just hits on every level. I also just have to underscore that it's set in the 1880s.
- [91:30]
B
Yeah.
- [91:31]
A
And, you know, which is a very different world. And, like. And I think that also, like, gives it a really, like, fresh sparkle.
- [91:39]
B
I will also say, everybody, I listen I re. I reread it in audio this time. Right. Because it's. Sometimes when I'm rereading it, it. I thought it was great. I had a really nice time with this audio. So who is the person? I don't know. Let me look.
- [91:54]
A
Oh, it's not like a classic.
- [91:56]
B
No, it was not somebody I knew well.
- [91:57]
A
That's why I was kind of Jane Wells.
- [91:59]
B
This could go poorly, right? Like this. If this is an older audiobook. But it's great. The woman does like. It's a single narrator, but she does a great scotch accent. I thought. Let me see who it is. It is Angela Daw.
- [92:18]
A
Okay.
- [92:19]
B
I feel like I know that name.
- [92:20]
A
Cool.
- [92:22]
B
So, yeah, she was great. And so, yeah, if you're thinking you might like, enjoy that audio, I would say you. I would say that you will. And I did.
- [92:31]
A
Well, fun. Listen. Read more. Historical, everybody.
- [92:35]
B
Definitely.
- [92:36]
A
Historicals are fun.
- [92:37]
B
They sure are. They sure are.
- [92:40]
A
It's because, you know why you just. It's just very freeing.
- [92:43]
B
Yeah, exactly. We do actually know our next read along because it will be in June and we are going to read Seven Days in June by the great Tia Williams. Now we've talked about this book before. When this came out, we had Tia on the podcast and Tia herself has a new book coming out in June. But we are going to read seven Days in June. In June. So that gives you some time to read it in case you have not had the pleasure. It is terrific.
- [93:12]
A
Nice. Well, that. So that's our next one. And then after that we have another we.
- [93:19]
B
We will.
- [93:20]
A
Who knows what. Because almost the end of our. Of our year and God, we're coming up on the end of season. What are we on eight.
- [93:29]
B
We're on the end of season eight, but we still have bunch of season eight to go.
- [93:32]
A
Just taste. I know, I know. But it doesn't feel like it is. Feels like everything is racing towards summer right now. I need everybody to calm the down.
- [93:42]
B
God.
- [93:43]
A
Also like, what is. Why is middle school. Why is there so much to do? I was promised that they would would get calmer. Anyway.
- [93:53]
B
That person lied to you.
- [93:54]
A
I know, I know. But we've almost survived. Knock on wood.
- [93:57]
B
Seventh grade, Jen. So you told me. I was like, if you make it seventh grade, you can really make it through anything.
- [94:05]
A
Anyway, Everybody, I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friend Jen Procop. We are faded mates. You can listen to us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcast. There are almost a full eight seasons to get through too.
- [94:18]
B
If you're new to us this week.
- [94:21]
A
If you love to talking about romances, love talking about books, then you can find a 24,7 faucet of talking about books and romances over on the Discord that we run the Faded Mates. Discord is accessible through the Faded Mates Patreon where you can join for a tiny amount every month and have access to the Discord and one extra episode every month as well. From us. Those episodes are more like casual sort of free rolling discussions of you know, what we do and don't like in the world. So you can join us there. For those the patreon is@fatedmates.net patreon and again that will get you direct access to the Discord once you've signed up. You can also find us@fatedmates.net where where our show notes exist. You can click on episodes and see the show notes as well as a list of all the books that we brought up today and the original covers of Lordy and Mackenzie and not. You'll also see on Show Notes a link to the historical Kickstarter that we're doing with AH2. Adriana Herrera and Ali Hazelwood have put together a stunning collection of hardcover foiled straight edge leather bound box box set of Lord of Scoundrels, Indigo the Magpie Lord Dreaming of you and Butterfly Swords. Five books that we love and have done deep dives on before here and then you can also find us online at Instagram and threads, thetamates Pod and on Blue sky at thetamates. I think that's it for now.
- [96:03]
B
That's it for now.
- [96:04]
A
Summer is coming. Oh and May 12th everyone, the paperback of these Storms comes out. It's floppy, it has sprayed edges in the first print run if that's a thing that you care about and you can pre order it wherever you get your books.
- [96:21]
B
Amazing.
- [96:22]
A
Thanks everyone.
- [96:30]
B
Sa.