S08.35: Sad Boys Who Punch Things with Veronica Roth

Summary

Fated Mates Podcast
Episode: S08.35 — “Sad Boys Who Punch Things” with Veronica Roth
Release Date: May 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively and insightful episode, hosts Sarah MacLean and Jen Prokop are joined by bestselling author Veronica Roth to unpack a romance reader’s catnip: the “Sad Boys Who Punch Things” romantic hero. Roth discusses her new romantic dystopian fantasy duology, Seek the Traitor's Son, her evolving relationship to romance within speculative fiction, the subtle tropes that drive her work, and the irresistible appeal of vulnerable, competent, and occasionally violent heroes.

Together, the conversation explores why sad, brooding heroes who express their emotions through acts of competence and (sometimes) physical violence are so satisfying on the page, even if, as Roth puts it, “I don’t want a sad man in real life.” The crew traces the roots of this archetype from television and literature and dives into favorite and notable examples from books and pop culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Veronica Roth’s Relationship with Romance

[00:00–05:22]

• Sarah expresses excitement over Roth’s return to romance-heavy narratives, referencing both When Among Crows and Seek the Traitor’s Son.
• Roth admits to being a longtime romance reader:

  "I read a lot of romance, so I've been obsessed with you for a long time." [00:55, Veronica Roth]

• The trio reflects on Halloween costumes, the creative demands of parenthood, and the experience of fame in the YA space (Divergent shoutouts abound).

Defining "Romantic Dystopian Fantasy" versus "Romantasy"

[05:22–09:19]

• Roth distinguishes her work as “romantic dystopian fantasy” rather than “romantasy” to align with reader expectations, noting “the romance is a strong B plot, not the plot.”
• She discusses genre labeling fatigue and how everything she writes “gets called dystopian because of Divergent.”

The Evolution of Seek the Traitor’s Son

[08:02–11:14]

• Roth describes the book’s long gestation:

  "I wrote it while cheating on other books, to be clear. So that's why it took so long... I wrote 10 drafts, sort of incomplete drafts." [08:02, Roth]

• Development of "the fever" (a post-pandemic worldbuilding element) and experimentation with both fantasy and sci-fi drafts.

Structuring a Duology & Writing Process

[11:08–13:07]

• The series was conceived as a single (very long) story, later split naturally for practicality—both books were drafted back-to-back.
• After the experience of getting “structurally stuck” in Divergent, Roth now always plans the full arc before starting.

The Heroine: Reluctant Chosen One

[15:45–16:46]

• Elegy, the protagonist, is shaped by her strong principles and her reluctance to embrace her role as a “chosen one.”
• Roth notes, “Reluctant Chosen One is a classic... but for it to be a woman felt... still fresh for me.”

Big Romance Energy

[17:07–20:32]

• Jen and Sarah gush over the emotional punch of Elegy’s relationship with her first husband (“the golden retriever guy”), praising Roth’s ability to craft heart wrenching stakes.
• Notable quote:

  “They spilled onto the bed like water poured from a pitcher.” [18:52, Roth’s novel, read by Sarah]

• Veronica: “My fear is that people would assume there was infidelity...so I was just like, no, no, you don’t understand! It’s a Veronica Roth book, someone will die.” [19:54]

Dystopian Hallmarks and The Powerlessness of Characters

[20:59–22:25]

• Jen identifies a hallmark of dystopian fiction: the illusion of control and the ever-present threat that “no one is really in control of their own life.”
• Roth: “Dystopian...has a history of being about kind of social critique and observation. But there’s also just this, like, feeling of danger I think that's kind of inherent.”

Honoring Second Loves & Prophecy as a Device

[22:25–23:51]

• Roth discusses her dedication of the book “to second loves” and honoring relationships that come later in life, reflecting her personal experience.

  “The person you love when you know yourself a little better. Which doesn’t negate the importance of first loves...but the second person in the love triangle…” [23:15, Roth]

Conceiving the Hero — Sad Boys Who Punch Things

[23:51–26:33]

• Therin, the hero, came before the heroine. Roth describes him as “an exaggeration of sensitivity and vulnerability...he can feel what other people are feeling in his body.”
• On the true romance fantasy:

  “Most romantic heroes...are an exaggeration of something you already find attractive in real life.” [24:36, Roth]

• The panel attempts to classify Therin, rejecting Alpha/Beta/Omega models and suggesting “Delta” as a new archetype.

Delta Hero: The Competent Yet Completely Devoted Man

[27:08–28:18]

• Veronica: “He’s super capable and competent...but he will do exactly what she says.”
• “Sad boys who hit things” (not angry, but competent, emotionally deep, and physically formidable):

  "I love a sad man. And not in real life, you know, but, like, on the page..." [28:18, Roth]

Pop Culture Prototypes: Toby Ziegler, Angel from Buffy, Fox Mulder, and Animorphs

[28:44–38:32]

• The “sad-competent-brooding-yet-kind” heroes in TV and books:
  • Toby Ziegler (The West Wing): "Is he not the hottie of the West Wing? This is my bitch, Toby Z." [28:44, Roth]
  • Angel (Buffy): “He’s so sad all the time, honestly. To the point of being annoying. Eventually, yeah.” [35:24, Roth]
  • Fox Mulder (X-Files): “I feel like for him, it’s like being misunderstood a bit.” [36:11, Jen]
  • Tobias (Animorphs): “Sad boy from the wrong side of town...He turns into a hawk and gets stuck that way for the rest of the series.” [37:57, Roth]
• Discussion of Ladyhawk and the enduring power of tragic, separated lovers.

Book Recs: Embodying the Trope

[42:45–44:35]

• Veronica’s top pick:

  • Daughter of Smoke and Bone by Laini Taylor — “He is so hot. This man has wings...If you like hurt, comfort, angst, if you like a hot man who will murder everyone for you, this is the series.” [43:16, Roth]
  • Star-crossed, hurt/comfort, dark secrets, and a strong romantic B plot.

• Sarah and Jen introduce the “heads of their enemies” trope:

  “...a grand gesture...a hero sort of goes off and, like, collects the heads, literal[ly], of all of the...people who have done the heroine wrong...” [44:57, Sarah]

• Analysis of how violence is coded as devotion when it is “thoughtful,” not hot-headed.

Sad Boys’ Emotional Landscapes

[49:09–52:03]

• The appeal of heroes who are emotionally exhausted, “tired, sad, into it.”
• Jack from Storms:

  “It’s the first punch that I like the most...he just calmly gets out of the car...and doesn’t talk about it. And he gets back in, and he’s just like, well, that’s done.” [53:12, Roth]

More Book Recommendations & Trope Evolution

[54:13–59:00+]

• Charlotte Stein’s The Professor: a classic “do not perceive me, I’m disgusting, I hate myself, but I adore you” hero.
• Managed by Kristen Callihan:

  “His story is that he’s so sad and broken that they, like, refuse to even, like, accept physical touch. He doesn’t like to be touched.” [55:12, Sarah]

• How to End a Love Story by Yulin Kuang: “...the pain between them is so real. So...I love the feeling that people can find their way to each other despite painful internal obstacles.” [57:35, Roth]

Community Picks from the Fated Mates Discord

[60:50–77:14]

• The Dragon and the Pearl by Jeannie Lin: a sad, misunderstood assassin who literally punches the ground in frustration after an intimate scene.
• Love in the Afternoon by Lisa Kleypas: a Cyrano-style tale featuring a hero with PTSD, deep devotion, and existential self-punishment.
• Wait for It by Molly O’Keefe: a deeply competent but regretful hero learning to channel his strength in nurturing ways; "he gets to punch out his own brother"—but only after respecting the heroine’s trauma.
• Paladin's Grace by T. Kingfisher: a paladin whose God has died, dealing with sadness and the fear of his own violence.

Paranormal & Urban Fantasy Connections

[78:21–81:32]

• Discussion of the “I want you so much it’s dangerous” vibe in vampire and paranormal romance, e.g., Discovery of Witches.
• The fantasy of the physically powerful hero being hyper-aware of their potential for harm—“the architect of whatever this is was a real mess” (re: humans being breakable compared to supernatural creatures).

Veronica’s News: What’s Next

[81:49–86:31]

• Seek the Traitor’s Son’s duology is complete, with the second book set for release in a year.
• New project: the Six Faction, a return to the Divergent universe/YA, featuring an alternate universe timeline and completed duology.

  “The best way to [return to Divergent] was to make something totally new, just so that when I talk about it, I feel like we’re talking about the work I’m doing now and not the work I was doing, you know, 15 years ago.” [83:55, Roth]

• New shiny anniversary edition of Divergent features a sneak peek at Six Faction.

Moments & Quotes to Remember

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:44 | V. Roth | “You want to be respectful of the genre expectations of romance readers.” | | 22:25 | V. Roth | “The book is dedicated to the second ones...it was to second loves. Because I married the second love of my life.” | | 24:36 | V. Roth | “Most romantic heroes...are an exaggeration of something you already find attractive in real life.” | | 28:18 | V. Roth | “I love a sad man. And not in real life, you know, but, like, on the page and in TV and movies...” | | 35:24 | V. Roth | “[Angel’s] so sad all the time, honestly. To the point of being annoying. Eventually, yeah.” | | 43:16 | V. Roth | “He is so hot. This man has wings...If you like hurt, comfort, angst, if you like a hot man who will murder everyone for you, this is the series.” | | 53:12 | V. Roth | “It's the first punch that I like the most where he just calmly gets out of the car...and gets back in, and he's just like, well, that's done.” | | 83:55 | V. Roth | “[Divergent] was to me...like this heavy thing in my life for a long time. And a couple years ago, I was like, okay...I need to fix the way that I relate to it. And the best way to do that was to make something totally new.” |

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Conclusion: Romance, Trauma, and the Competent, Self-Sacrificing Hero

This episode is rich with industry insight, readerly passion, and genuine camaraderie. Through detailed examples, pop culture analysis, and personal anecdotes, Sarah, Jen, and Veronica dissect why the “Sad Boy Who Punches Things” remains so iconic—and so swoony—in fictional romance.

Whether it’s a vampire’s self-denial, a traumatized soldier’s devotion, or a paladin’s oaths, these heroes embody competence, vulnerability, and an almost mythic readiness for sacrifice. Veronica Roth’s own work stands as a new entry in the canon, offering fans plenty of hurt/comfort, emotional stakes—and yes, plenty of things getting punched.

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Further Reading (As Recommended)

• Daughter of Smoke and Bone by Laini Taylor
• The Dragon and the Pearl by Jeannie Lin
• Love in the Afternoon by Lisa Kleypas
• Wait for It by Molly O'Keefe
• Managed by Kristen Callihan
• The Professor by Charlotte Stein
• Paladin's Grace by T. Kingfisher

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Connect with Veronica Roth:

• veronicarothbooks.com
• Instagram & Threads: @veronicaroth

Find all book and episode details:

• FatedMates.net

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“I love a hero who feels undeserving...don’t perceive me, I can’t even look at you, you’re too good for me.”
—Sarah MacLean [58:34]

Transcript

[A]

Well, we are very excited today because we have our friend Veronica Roth with us. Yay. I have been obsessed with your books for a long time. We've known each other, like, we sort of danced around each other for a long time. And finally we have a book that has, like, a really strong romance running through it. Yay, Veronica. Everybody, Veronica Roth likes a romance. I can tell.

[B]

I do. I really do.

[A]

You have When Among Crows behind you. And I was obsessed with that book last year. Like, I read it multiple times. I gave it to my daughter. Like, everybody, everybody I know has read this book because I, like, pressed it into people's hands. But that's really romantic. Like, there's a really, like, sexy romance in that book too. And I feel like I'm so excited that we finally get to get you here and talk about romance.

[B]

Thank you for having me. Yeah, I read a lot of romance, so I've been obsessed with you for a long time.

[A]

And now we're here. And now we're here. And now we're here.

[C]

I am a middle school teacher and know you mostly from Divergent and when you did Sarah's. So last summer, when Sarah did the tour for Storms, you were like, sarah, you and Sarah were the people in Chicago. And I sat with you in the green room and was like, just be cool. Just be cool to myself. Because I was like, you know, I mean, I had kids who read Divergent like, it was their whole personality back in the day.

[A]

Yeah. I have a 12 year old who dressed up like Tris for Halloween.

[B]

Ah, yes. Oh, my gosh. I love it. You know what? I think also the Divergent costumes are accessible to children because they don't need to make anything new for them.

[A]

I did not do one thing for her. She built it out of her closet. Amazing.

[C]

Perfect.

[A]

The dream costume for a dream costume.

[C]

Exactly. Honestly, for any adult. I appreciate everyone who loves a good Halloween costume, but my whole theory is, what's the least you could possibly do

[A]

while still technically being in costume? Exactly. She did ask me to draw the tattoo on her body, and that was the one thing that I came in for. Well, but she couldn't really see it, so I wasn't like.

[B]

So my mom was like, art mom. Like, my mom's an artist. So I didn't realize that, like, you know, if you don't just have those skills, like, there's actually a lot of demands on your creative abilities. Your visual, like, whatever. Creative abilities as a parent. Yes.

[C]

Oh, God. When I don't have any of those skills and People, like, there's a lot of, like. It just feels like kind of a mom competition, which I try very hard to ever participate in. Halloween.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, you know, I had friends who'd be like, what are you gonna do about little romances? Halloween costume? And I'd be like, well, I have a job. If I'm planning to buy one, I'm going to buy one. That is the best thing about being a working mom is you can just buy.

[A]

And now you could go to Etsy and, like, buy a good one.

[B]

Oh, that's not.

[A]

Just, like, put on a trash bag that's painted red and call it, you know, spider Man.

[C]

There's nothing wrong. That's.

[A]

Sarah, did you have a. Were you a Halloween. Are you a Halloween person? Veronica?

[B]

I really love the, like, accoutrement of Halloween. But no, because I am not, you know, people who, like, can't really fully commit to a costume. That's me. Like, I just can't do it. So I never got into it, really.

[A]

But, yeah, I like the idea. I wish I were. My thing is, like, in my head, I feel like I could do it, and then I just don't. So that is. But I wish I were somebody who were committed to costuming. I'm always impressed when, well, you do this. You go to Comic Con and, like. And I am always impressed with people who just, like, cosplay.

[B]

I know they're amazing. They'll be like, I built this out of toothpicks in my backyard.

[A]

Yeah. You posted something to your TO somewhere recently. You were at Comic Con, I think, and some. And two people came as a first draft and a special edition. Yes.

[B]

It was bookcon. Yeah. They were awesome. I really loved that.

[A]

Yeah. And the first draft was like. She had a bunch of crumpled paper on her.

[B]

Her makeup was smeared.

[A]

It was.

[B]

It was very detailed. It's like the photo couldn't capture it. It was incredible.

[A]

Nice. That's cool. Well, everybody, welcome to Faded mates. I'm Sarah McLean. I read romance novels and I write them.

[C]

I'm Jennifer Prokup, a romance reader and

[A]

editor, and we are here with Veronica Roth, author of many, many wonderful books, including the Divergent series and. And her most recent book, Seek the Traitor's Son, which is the first in a new romantic dystopian fantasy is what we're calling it.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

A duo.

[B]

Careful about this.

[A]

Yes. And so maybe we should begin with. Well, first we should say, welcome again, Veronica. Thanks for joining us.

[B]

Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is going to be fun.

[A]

And we Have a whole. Veronica has chosen a trope in romance she'd like to discuss, but we're going to. We're going to hang out with Seek the Traitor's Son for a little bit here. And maybe we start with romantic dystopian fantasy being a very sort of clear choice as opposed to, say, Romantasy, which is what we hear a lot about.

[B]

Yes. So why? Why? Yeah, well, the re. The reason is because you want to be respectful of the genre expectations of romance readers. And if you set them up to think it's a romantasy, and then it's still. It's a subplot still. And when romance readers read this book, they're like, it's a small subplot. And I'm like, okay, it's not a small subplot.

[A]

But I don't know.

[B]

Comparatively, I understand that. That's true. So. Yeah. So it's just about, like, wanting to prime people for the inaccurate experience. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, for what it's worth, as somebody who's read a lot of your catalog, it is the most romance I think you've ever done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I would say I would.

[C]

Veronica is shimmying, everybody. I just want you to understand right now, there was, like, a shake and a shimmy. It was very sexy. Yeah.

[A]

And I love this because I feel like this has to have been born of, like, during the pandemic, you feeling like, I gotta. I gotta write kissing. Like, it's too.

[B]

It's too dark.

[C]

People touch each other. I'm not sure anyone like a rothy

[A]

out here in the world, so.

[B]

Yes, it was sort of. Yeah. I started in September 2019, so it's been a long time coming.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But a lot of that is, of course, like, over Covid. All those dark. That dark period.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so talk a little bit about how the book came to be. I didn't realize that you'd been writing it for so long or working on it for so long.

[C]

I think dystopian and Romantasy are not the same. And so I wonder if, like, that's also part of maybe something I would love to hear you talk a little bit more about, like, maybe both, like, in House, like, sort of. What were the discussions about how to. What to call this? But I mean, I think dystopian is so different than Romantasy, even though they both are kind of under that big speculative fiction umbrella.

[B]

Yes, very different. And I think I was resistant initially to calling it dystopian, just because it's more like it's just science fiction fantasy, like. Yeah, you know, so. But it is on Earth. So I think that is why they wanted that label also, to be honest with you guys, everything I have ever written has been called dystopian because of divergence. So it's kind of like.

[A]

Yeah, but it's that you say sci fi. Because I got like about halfway through this book, I was like, wait, this is just. This is really sci fi?

[B]

Yes. Yeah, it has those elements for sure.

[A]

Yeah. But I also know that you think about this as like a really. It's a book that's straddling a lot of genres. So can you talk about that?

[B]

Yeah, so I wrote it over. I wrote it while cheating on other books, to be. To be clear. So that's why it took so long, because I wrote Chosen One's Poster Girl, Arch Conspirator, One Among Crows and A Collection Razor while I was writing this book. So it's just like, it's the book I worked on for fun while I was working on other things. And each. I wrote 10 drafts, sort of incomplete drafts of it.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Like, some were very short. We're talking like 50 pages or, you know. But I sort of bounced back and forth between fantasy and science fiction with each draft. So I just couldn't figure out because I love both genres a lot and the type of science fiction I write is a little softer, so it's not like obeying hard science rules, you know, so it's a little bit close to fantasy anyway. And so figuring out that exact calibration was part of the fun of experimenting with this book. But I think it was like, I tried it once as ya, this was hilarious, by the way. Just if you've read this book, like, having them be younger makes no sense at all. Anyway, I just, I just wanted to try it, you know, I think because I started NYE and I thought, like, am I ever going to go back to it? Like, actually miss the teenagers? I really like them. I like doing school visits. I like that part of the job.

[C]

You can come to school anytime.

[A]

Yeah, I have a teenager who would love to have you over.

[B]

I do love to. I love talking to them and I think they're hard for a lot of people to talk to for good reason. And so it's like, if you can talk to them, then you should. But so I've always been like trying to get back there and I was like, so I try every idea as ya and this one is just a funny, a funny choice for that. But I think during that draft, I discovered the fever, which is such a huge world building element in this book. So to explain for those who haven't read the fever, the. This futuristic Earth has been overrun by this fever. Everyone who catches it dies, and half of them come back to life a couple days later, regenerated and with special abilities, usually pertaining to memory. So there's like the enemy nation that has embraced the fever and worships it as a God. And then there's our main character's country, which is much smaller and they are committed to quarantine. So you can tell that I wrote this during COVID But yeah, so it was at that point that it became, like, plausibly dystopian. And that was like, draft eight, so.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's amazing, because I also think, like you said, some of the drafts were like 50 pages. I think one of the interesting things I. One of the ways I think of you as an interesting writer now is that you are really playing with length. Like, your stories are the length that they need to be. And I mean that because, you know, I already talked about When Among Crows and To Clutch a Razor, but both of those are really, like, beautifully done small stories, and I wonder if you could talk. But this is a duology. This is happening. I mean, that I guess was. You know, I guess that was too, but it's sort of.

[B]

No, it's.

[A]

No, this is different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me why I'm wrong.

[B]

No, no, you're totally right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just that this one was conceived of as one big unit, but it is so absurdly long that way that it's not feasible to print it. So you have to split it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

There is a natural splitting point we all agreed on, but I did propose it as one.

[A]

So did you write it all together?

[C]

And then I. I saw you say this on Threads. It's done, right? The second book is on. Yeah. Sarah's like, I hate you.

[A]

I mean, I listen. That's magical. Everybody's always like, sarah, if you die, like, we could just publish, like, what's under the bed? I'm like, good luck to you. There's nothing under.

[B]

Nothing under everything.

[C]

There's no under the bed.

[A]

Ruby Dixon was like, I've got 70

[C]

books under the bed.

[A]

I am always like, what? Anyway. But so. So talk about how you write. You wrote this as a. Did you write it all in one go?

[B]

Pretty much, yeah. I wrote them back to back. So we. I had decided on the splitting point, and so I wrote up to that and then I just immediately started drafting the next one, which I've never done before, and I sent them both to my editor at once.

[A]

Amazing. And what a like great way to edit.

[C]

And when will the second one be released?

[B]

The second one comes out a year from now.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it also feels like as somebody who has written, you know, series and I mean, you have, you have too. Like sometimes in a series when you don't write it all together, you end up in book, you know, three or four going, oh shit, that. Oh no.

[C]

I just backed myself into a corner

[A]

past Sarah slash Veronica has really fucked present Sarah.

[B]

So that, by the way, is my experience of Divergent because I got to allegiant the third one and I was like, oh no. I left myself in quite a pickle. Like, structurally. Yeah. So I. Since that point was like, I'm never doing that again. So I always plan the entire arc of the series before I start.

[A]

Now that's a really. And I imagine that for somebody who writes something where the world's plot is the A story, right? Like this is romance is the B story in Seek the Traitor's Son. But if the world plot is the A story, you have to know, you really do leave yourself in a pickle. You know, my problem is when I get to like three or four books into a series, I'm like, now wait a second, like, what was her job? Or, you know, it's a much easier. A lower hanging fruit.

[C]

A little bit of an easier fix than the whole world.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

This week's episode of Fated Mates is brought to you by Rose Prendeville, author of A Fair Affair.

[A]

So Wesley Teal is a commitment phobic flirt and this is really suits her very well because the last time she was on vacation with her grandmother, she met the local priest and she has just basically spent all the time since feeling like that. Like Hot Scott, who ran the church in her grandma's town is like a pretty adorable character and like she's just letting herself fantasize about him. Problem is that Hot Scott, who is a priest in her grandma's town, is

[B]

not actually a priest.

[A]

He's just a church would lose it if he knew that she thought that he was a priest because his interest in Wes is very biblical. Now Wesley's grandmother is supposed to be planning a Renaissance fair in town, but the event company that hire that she hired has is in the wind. They've scammed her and Wes hurries back to grandma's town where this hot priest that's Not a priest exists. And she is definitely planning to rescue, but not planning for Owen to arrive on the doorstep with a suitcase full of secrets and a pathological need to be helpful when Wes is a person who never, ever needs help. The only place these two are on the same page is in the bedroom. But the question is, can they put their baggage aside and pull off the ren faire of a lifetime? Well, all's fair in love and slutty little glasses.

[C]

Amazing. So if you would like to check out A Fair Affair, it is available in print, ebook and with Kobo plus. You can also order the print copies from Rose's website and received a signed edition and bookmark if your podcasting app supports it. You can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Rose Prendeville for sponsoring this week's episode.

[A]

So we have this book. We have two warring factions. We have two sort of.

[B]

I love a faction.

[A]

You do love a faction. We have two sort of competing worlds. I sort of the good guys and the bad guys, if you will. There's a prophecy. The prophecy involves love, which, I mean, yeah, but also, like, love with potentially two men. Like, what's happening here? There are a lot of, like, big questions that are our heroine Elegy has at the beginning of this book, and she's really like a reluctant heroine. Can we talk about that?

[B]

Yeah. She was hard to figure out. I think the only thing I knew about her. It's a little hard to talk about this book without spoiling things, but there are things that she won't do, you know, to get her way because she has principles. So that was the first thing I knew about her. But the second thing is that she does not want to be the Chosen One, which I think is such a great reluctant Chosen One is a classic.

[A]

True.

[B]

You know, in fantasy and I. But it's a lot of the time, it's like a man, he's like beleaguered, you know, and this thing has been put upon him and he endures it because he's so strong. Right. But so for it to be a woman felt. It's not that it's never been done before, but it feels like still fresh for me. So I liked it. Yeah. That was the second thing I knew about her.

[A]

And then we have. Is it Therin? Is that how it's pronounced? Yes. And then we have Therin and Theron is. Are here. Well, what's interesting, actually, first of all, for the romance readers in the crew, there is when we Meet Elegy. She is married to a man she really loves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is a really beautiful. I was very upset, I will say. I was like, not. I mean, not to spoil, but I think we have to spoil because we have to talk about Aaron. You know, she's married to this, like, really, like, golden retrievery guy who, like, the moment he shows up on the page, I was like, oh, no, this is doomed.

[C]

This man cannot.

[A]

This cannot be the. She cannot be the chosen one with this guy, like, because he's too great. He's so. He's a lovely man who I would be very happy to have to dinner, Right?

[B]

Yes. And she falls in love with him and is annoyed by it, you know, because he's so. He's annoyingly good looking.

[A]

He's so handsome, and he's so fun, like, charming. And he loves her so much. And there's this great line which I am gonna spoil for everybody because I was like Veronica Roth, just nailing romance from the jump. At one point, they are supposed to get somewhere. Listen, I'm lingering on chapter two here, right?

[C]

Sometimes it gets helpful. Sometimes I'm like, I'm gonna spoil it. And then I'm like, this is chapter two.

[A]

This is chapter two. They have to get somewhere and instead they decide to just fuck. And it's. And the line is. And then they spilled onto the bed. They spilled. I can't now. I gotta get it right. But it's like water poured from a bedroom.

[B]

They spilled onto the bed like water

[A]

poured from a pitcher. It's so beautiful. And I was like, oh, Veronica, you're about to really, like, come for us in romance here. And then, I mean, to be fair,

[C]

anyone who read the back of the book and then read this would understand that this man's days were number.

[A]

But here's the thing. He's such a fucking hero, Jen. Because then there's a battle and, like, somebody has to sacrifice themselves for her. And it's him. And it's a really magnificent, like, beautiful moment where she's brokenhearted. Also, the prophecy says she's going to fall in love with somebody she hasn't met.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's already married and in love. And it's heartbreaking and beautiful.

[B]

We have had to keep this out of the copy because my fear is that people would assume there was infidelity. And I was like, I mean, that's such a turn off for a lot of people, which I understand. And so I was just like, no, no, you don't understand. It's a. Veronica Roth book, someone will die.

[C]

No.

[A]

It's so beautifully done. And she's so heartbroken. And you do this magnificent thing in the very beginning with this. With this relationship where you're. Where, like, she. This is, like, one of the hardest things. This is maybe the hardest thing about the prophecy for her. She's like, what? How could this be? I'm married. I love this man. She's, like, afraid to tell him about the prophecy. Again, everybody, we're in the, like, chapter one here. I'm not spoiling anything. It's really beautiful. And anyway, I just wanted to, like, take a moment and tell you how beautiful that is.

[C]

Like, a good prophecy has to call into question your very being. Right. I mean, otherwise, what's the fun in that?

[A]

Also, that's.

[B]

It's so.

[A]

It's such a great. It's great character work. Of course she's reluctant, like, now. This really does suck. Whatever's about to happen is going to go real south potentially. Right?

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Anyway, it does go south.

[B]

And just. Honestly, guys, just in the first, like, 75 pages, it's like, you know, I mean, less than that.

[A]

Veronica's like, why are we lingering here?

[B]

Because we like it.

[A]

Because it's beautiful. And we are. I mean, I do think.

[C]

Think an element of, like, what makes something dystopian. To me, though, is that the mechanism by which, like, we're not in charge of our own lives, really. Right. Coincidence or fate or whatever can really fuck you up. Feels so much more on the surface of a dystopian. Right. Like, I think that, to me, is, like, a real hallmark of, like, when I read dystopian, like, what I'm looking for are for people to be, like, hyper aware of the fact that, like, the illusion that I'm in control of my own life is just that, an illusion that no one has that illusion. And I think, like, that's it. Like, you have a bunch of people moving through the world who really are just like, yeah, I'm not. Bad things can happen to me at any minute. There's really nothing I can do about it. Fuck.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Yes. And it's good. Like, fodder for drama. Like, that's not all it is. You know, just as a genre, dystopian has a history of being about kind of social critique and observation. But there's also just this, like, feeling of danger. I think that's kind of inherent.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dystopian, just.

[C]

But yeah, I mean, my favorite book to teach is dystopian. Yeah. So House of the Scorpion, I love you. So. Yeah, I mean, I do, but I think that's why it's like, right, you're saying, like. And I think that's it. Like, the world itself is. We're saying something about, like, the world as it exists, but also, like, how do people exist in a world when they know that.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[C]

That's true.

[B]

Yeah. And my philosophy of Sheer. That's Elegy's husband is that I did not want to sabotage the character. So I did try very brief scenes where I kept him alive and I let that tension exist on the page. And I didn't like it because there was no way to do it without making him suck suddenly, which is a choice that you could make. But the book is dedicated to the second ones. And the reason it's vague is because it was to second loves. Because I married the second love of my life. And so I always want to honor that as a real. The person you love when you know yourself a little better. Which doesn't negate the importance of first loves, but it's just. You don't. You know, it doesn't get as much attention. I feel this, like, sure, the second person in the love triangle or whatever.

[A]

Well, you're also, like, battle tested, Right. When you hit the second one, you're a different. You're like, you said, you're a different person. And that's where we are with Elegy. When, you know, time passes, she, you know, finds Therin. Other things happen. But ultimately we are in a place where Theron arrives and talk to us about conceiving this hero.

[B]

Well, he came first. He was my first. Yeah. So she was harder to figure out. Actually. That is always true for me. The women are harder to figure out. I feel that, like, that the reason why is, like, very obvious. It's just that, you know, I find women to be, like, incredibly interesting and compelling, and I spend most of my time with them. So I feel like it's. I'm like, okay, gotta get it right. Like, really figure out who she is, because that's really gonna be. It's gonna be tricky and it's gonna be important. But it's not that men are inherently simpler because they're not. But I think because I know they're, like, usually typically they're a love interest. So I'm like, oh, I know exactly what kind of.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What kind of guy I'm, like, interested in for this one. So for him, yeah, he was the first character I thought of, and he's an interesting one. I think, to me, my philosophy is that most romantic heroes that we write about, they're kind of an exaggeration of something that you already find attractive in real life. Because the mistake people make about romance is that, well, the women are in danger because they like an alpha male. What does this say about. You know, about women? And it's like, nothing. What it says is that women are attracted to confidence and that there's a nice, like, dramatic fun in exaggerating that confidence and, like, letting yourself be carried away on this fantasy. But Theron is like, an exaggeration of sensitivity and vulnerability. So he's preternaturally, emotionally, like, empathetic, whatever, so he can feel, like what other people are feeling in his body. And I just. I thought that was, like, romantic, you know, because what you want in real life is someone who can be engaged with you on a deep level, and he has to be. So I think that was kind of where he started. But he's. He's not, like. He's not soft at all. So it was a. It was an interesting tension to create inside of a person.

[A]

So this is where we come in, because we were talking. We met in Chicago, and we were talking about your interest in this particular kind of hero. This, like, what we were trying to sort of sort out in the green room of our event. Like, what would we call this hero? Right, because he's not an Alpha. He's not a Beta. He at one point, like, Omega came onto the scene, and we were like, no, that's.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I don't know what it means, but I know it's something different.

[B]

Oh, I know what it means.

[C]

I've been told and have learned many times what it means, but every time, I'm still like, so he's a wolf?

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

There is no pregnancy in this book, and therefore he does not get pregnant in this book. And therefore, Omega's poss. Not. Not possible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what then? Like, this morning, we were like, well, maybe he's something totally different. Maybe he's Delta. That's what she said. So let's talk about, like, what does Veronica Roth mean when she says Delta Hero?

[B]

So I want to, like, begin by acknowledging that, like, I. I like a lot of different kinds of heroes and heroines out there in the world, and I. But what I find, like, I don't personally find appealing is, like, a controlling man. I did not marry one. I just, like, don't. I don't love it. And it's very common, and I can kind of get past It, Like, I read plenty of books where the guy's kind of, like, possessive and jealous and controlling. And I'm like, okay, it's just a fantasy. Like, let's let this go. But I actually would love to see more of not that. So I think it's not that. Like, it exists in plenty of places. But I was like, okay, this is what I want. I want this man who is super capable and competent and even like. Like, he's a. He can fight. Like, he's. He's strong in that way, but he will do exactly what she says.

[A]

I mean, I'm for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we sort of. I sort of came to. Well, are we really talking about, like, sad boys who hit things?

[B]

Because I do. I love a sad man. And not in real life, you know, but, like, in. On the page and in TV and movies. Like, nothing gets me like a sad dude.

[A]

I don't know why, but, like, we don't necessarily mean, like, crying sad. Like, on Threads earlier, maybe like, a week or so back, you were like, is Toby Ziegler from the West Wing actually, like, the perfect hero?

[B]

Is he not the hottie of the West Wing? This is my bitch, Toby Z. I

[C]

mean, we've talked about this before. Like, one of my favorite scenes in the West Wing is the one where you just see him in the office throwing a tennis ball, like, fucking thinking.

[A]

I watched that episode last night. We're rewatching the West Wing, and it just happened to be last night. And he's so. And then that's the episode, everybody. The west wing is 25 years old. So, like, I'm spoiling. Yeah, that's the episode where he gets told that Jed Bartlett has Ms. Ms. And he is in. I mean, that whole episode is Toby sitting in the. In the. In the Oval Office cooking. Yeah. And he is very hot.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Can get it. Can get it and don't have it watching West Wing. Do not Google this character.

[B]

No, don't. You have to watch it. Like, it's not going to make any sense. And then once you get to know him, you'll be like, I get it.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yes, he could get it. But the thing about it is that no one would argue that Toby is, like, a weak person or a submissive type. He's not. No.

[A]

He speaks truth to power the entire series. He's the voice of truth.

[B]

But he also is sort of happy to understand his place, that he's not happy, but.

[C]

I got your phone.

[B]

No, he's okay with being the kind of guy behind the guy. And there's something that I really like about that where it's just like, I don't need to be the guy. Not every person needs to be in a position of authority. And there's strength in acknowledging that your best role is to facilitate the greatness of someone else. And that is what Theron is in this book. He's like, she's the one and I will get her there. And that's like a nice dynamic for them.

[A]

Yeah, I'm her sword. Or I'm her, you know. Oh, perfect. Love it.

[C]

Love it.

[A]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Piper Rain, authors of the Hotshot.

[C]

Okay, so Piper Raine writes a great romance, and this is the first in their Dugout series, which takes place here in Chicago. So what we have is Leighton. She is a single woman, a labor and delivery nurse, living a quiet life. Everything's fine until all of a sudden she's navigating guardianship hearings for her cousin's three kids. This wasn't part of her plan, but, like, she feels really committed to, like, essentially, you know, pitching in and being the person this, these kids need. However, what she doesn't also expect is Hayes Carlisle to enter the picture. This is her best friend's older brother, the Chicago Colts newest catcher and the man she once kissed and then immediately pretended it didn't happen. Once the custody batt Leighton has been really dreading becomes a reality, Hayes kind of swoops in with this wild idea, which is a fake relationship. It will make him look good in the press and it will prove to the court that Leighton isn't like, sort of taking on this big instant family all by herself. But pretending to be Hayes's girlfriend is a terrible idea because he makes her laugh and the kids want him to read their bedtime stories. And it's looking like that kiss wasn't a one time mistake.

[A]

Catching feelings with this catcher.

[C]

Exactly. What's gonna happen?

[A]

Well, you can find out what happens in this baseball best friend's older brother romance right now. Available in print, ebook and full cast audio and with your monthly subscription to Kindle Unlimited. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title and be taken to buy the book. Thanks as always to Piper Rain for sponsoring this week's episode. So then we sort of talked about. We as we were discussing this as like an archetype. We said this should be the episode that you come on the podcast and we talk about because sad boys who'd

[C]

like to punch things or have to punch things or have to punch for

[B]

the good of humanity, under duress.

[A]

Would punch a thing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Cause we don't want them. They're not firecrackers. They're usually very, like. Even until it's time.

[B]

Yes, I do. I also love a quiet man. So I think this is.

[A]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[B]

That's part of it. We were like, what's happening under there? And what's happening under there is extreme competence. It's like, this is so hot.

[A]

But it's interesting, right, because quiet heroes are really difficult to find because they're quite. They're quiet. Like, they have, like. It's hard in text. They. It's. I wrote a very. I wrote a hero who was like. Like, basically, that was his character trait. And I was like, this is the hardest thing I've ever done because he can't dialogue, really. And then, you know, when he breaks at the end, he all. He. It just like, pours out. Like, it's all talk, right? It's all of his feelings come out,

[B]

I think, especially in romance, though. So, like, that's the benefit of not writing a strict. A romance romance, because you can have them do a bunch of other things, but in a romance, your main focus is on what's happening between them. And if he refuses to say anything, then it's a little bit difficult.

[A]

You're like, ah, well, then he just has to go down on her. Veronica. That's what happened.

[B]

Listen, does the man have skills? It's very important.

[A]

So, okay, so we. We had. We. I asked you to come with some. Where. We asked you to come with some ideas of heroes who you think have been. Are this. You know, Are perfectly this archetype. But I guess. Oh, the other thing I do want to know, and maybe we can. We can talk about this, is do you feel like there are heroes from the pat. From your reading in the past, like heroes that you were drawn to earlier in your life that have this kind of. That installed this button I'm always interested in. Like, did someone install this button?

[B]

The one I remember is on tv. Like, that really created this thing. And it's angel from Buffy.

[A]

Oh, so sad.

[B]

He's so sad all the time, honestly. To the point of being annoying. Eventually, yeah. He's so sad and he's so capable of, like, killing everyone. But he also respects her a lot and he will fight with her. He doesn't, like, try to stop her from ever being in danger. He just is there when she needs him. And I think that's the perfect like, that's where he came from for me. I saw Buffy reruns on TV as a kid and I was like, that guy?

[C]

That guy?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Interesting. Okay.

[A]

That's actually really good. That's like a perfect sort of prototype.

[B]

I remember realizing that I only ever write the trope that is a battle couple. So they fight together. That's it. That's all I ever do.

[C]

I feel like. Do you think Fox Mulder has some element of this?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I mean. Cause I feel like for him, it's like being misunderstood a bit. Right. I know this thing is. Right. But for whatever reason the world around me, he doesn't see the things I see. And then here is like this perfect woman who.

[B]

Who he's obsessed with. Yeah, Yeah.

[C]

I can't say that because I'm, you know. An FBI agent.

[B]

Yes, yes. I think it is a great example of it. And he's sort of got a morose quality.

[C]

Oh, yeah. I mean, God, that man could mope like nobody's business. You know, just sitting alone in his little sad office in his FBI basement.

[B]

Yeah. But the other. So the actual literary one is Tobias from Animorphs. Animorphs is a children's series that is shockingly dark. Like, really could not be darker. And Tobias is like the sad boy from the wrong side of town. And it's so old. I'm not gonna bother. Not spoiling it. But he, like, I think to sacrifice himself for the good of all or whatever. Like, he transforms into the hawk. Because they can turn into animals in this series. They have, like special alien granted powers to turn into animals.

[C]

Everybody on show notes. I'll put these covers. They were like, real groovy.

[B]

Oh, my God, they're bananas. But yeah, so they can turn into animals, but they can only do it for an hour, otherwise it gets stuck that way. And he turns into a hawk and gets stuck that way for the rest of the series. And that's also very sad. It's like a tragic. So he's hot in the, like. First of all, he's a bird, which is like a hot animal. Second of all, like, he's.

[A]

Which is a hot animal.

[B]

There are hot animals and there are not hot animals. Wolves, birds, to. Yeah, Yeah. I don't know. If you think about it, you.

[A]

I don't know that I would say all birds, Veronica.

[B]

I think that's where I'm.

[C]

Hawks. Yes. But then I'm like, birds of prey. Like those little things.

[A]

Yeah, like those little fluffy ones. I don't know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. But but, yeah, he's. I mean, it's a. It's a tragic thing, and he's very sad, and he came from, like, a. Like a rough background, so he never got a break the whole series, but it is relentlessly dark.

[A]

So, yeah, now that you've said that, I'm thinking about Lady Hawk, which actually, we bring up a lot more on this podcast than I think anybody in the whole world brings up. Lady Hawk. But I think that that doesn't actually count because Rutger Hauer turns into. So do you know the story, you know about Lady Hawk?

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Is this going to be another list?

[A]

Here we go again.

[B]

Twins thing.

[A]

No, this is. No, this is a movie. Michelle Pfeiffer is about 20 in it, and she is the most beautiful human who has ever walked the planet, both in the film and in real life. And Rutger Hauer. So he. It's medieval. It's also like the first. The first movie Matthew Broderick was in. He's about 16 years old, and Rucker Hauer is a medieval knight, and Michelle Pfeiffer is like this beautiful woman who He. They. They are in love. They have been in love, but everyone is in love with Michelle Feifer, including an evil, like, priest who puts a curse on her. It's comp. It doesn't matter.

[B]

I've got to watch this.

[A]

There's a curse, and the curse is you're gonna die. I can't. I'm so excited that I. You.

[C]

God, imagine I'm watching about this for the first time. Okay, I'm watching, too.

[A]

It's. This is a seminal moment for you, Veronica. The curse is that by day he is a man and she is a hawk, and by night, she is a woman, and he is a wolf.

[B]

And the wolf.

[A]

Only time. There you go. And the only time they can ever see each other in the in flesh is in the millisecond of time at dawn and at dusk before they each. And they can't touch. It's so. It's so fleeting that they, like. It's so good.

[B]

All right, I'm gonna watch it.

[A]

And then there's like a full moon. And, like, they have three days to get to somewhere to break the curse. There's a drunken friar. Like, there's a lot going on, but essentially, I mean, talk about a sad brooder, but. Oh, yeah, he also would definitely. Yes, he would absolutely kill for her. But also. And does. But also. I think he. It's not reluctant.

[B]

Yeah, he's like, ready? Yeah.

[A]

He's like, I'll kill anybody if I could break this curse and be with this woman. Anyway, that's my gift to you. It's a Saturday and now, you know,

[B]

I've got a lot of time I gotta do. I gotta watch this.

[A]

It's research. It's research. You like a curse.

[C]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is brought to you by Blue Box Press, publishers of the Rivers Wild series by Dylan Allen.

[A]

So the Rivers Wild series focuses on Houston's most powerful neighborhood where two dynasties, the Wilds and the Rivers, have been building empires for generations. This is a world of childhood sweethearts torn apart by betrayal, daredevils who meet their match and buttoned up CEOs, brilliant masterminds falling for the one woman they were never supposed to want. This thing has reformed jewel thieves and billionaires hiding family secrets and generational secrets like some secret salacious, juicy drama is going on in this series. If you've ever read anything by Dylan, you know that this is also incredibly sexy. These men are larger than life. The heroines match them beat for beat. And it is going to be a delicious series for you to start it it. The books in the series are the Daredevil, the Mastermind and the Wild Card. And they're in beautiful new print editions from Blue Box.

[C]

So if you are interested in these swoon worthy, steamy and impossible to put down standalone romances from the Rivers Wild series, check it out now. If your podcasting app supports it, you can click on the chapter title right now to be taken to buy the book. Thanks to Dylan Allen and Blue Box Press for sponsoring this week's episode.

[A]

Well, let's get into it.

[C]

So what do you.

[A]

Did you bring us a book? What is the book you would recommend?

[B]

So if you want this trope, you need to read Daughter of Smoke and Bone by Laini Taylor. The whole series, it is the most angsty. If you like hurt, comfort, angst. If you like a hot man who will murder everyone. For you, this is the series. He is so hot. This man has wings.

[A]

Oh, you're into wings?

[B]

Yeah. He's not an angel because it's a fantasy. Like it's a fantasy world where it's on earth, but there's a portal basically. And there's like Chimera. So they're like part animal, part people or whatever. And then there's also like these angel. They're the bad guys. It's like, it's very interesting anyway. And they're like a star crossed romance situation, but he acts through. I Don't want to spoil too much, but it is an old series, but he does something horrible, but he didn't realize it at the time.

[A]

And does it impact her?

[B]

Yes, in a big way. Yes. So there's is, like. It's at the point where you're like, how are they ever going to get back together? You know, because, like, ha. You know, it's so halfway through the series, I was like, what are you gonna do, Lainey?

[A]

For what it's worth, I'm sure Lainey was also like, oh, shit, what am I gonna do, Lainey?

[B]

But yes. So that is, like, the perfect example of this, I would say. And it's. I mean, it's so good. Her writing is really lush and beautiful. And it is not a romance, of course, but I think it's the same balance of romance that we're talking about here, where it's like, it's a B plot, but it's like, a strong B plot.

[A]

So this is making me think that also there's maybe a thread to this hero that is, like, what we refer to here on the podcast as, like, heads of their enemies. Right. Where, like. So there's a. There are a couple of books, probably more books than you would expect in romance, where the, like, as a. As a pledge of their.

[C]

A romantic gesture.

[A]

Romantic. A grand gesture, if you will, a hero sort of goes off and, like, collects the heads, literal of all of the heroines, all of the people who the heroine has. Who have done the heroine wrong. And it's like, it's really romantic. There's one way. Now, of course, I don't remember that. I wasn't intending to talk about this, but in Kressley Cole's Immortals After Dark series, there is a book where she is, like. He literally is, like, keeping a list. And then his grand gesture is a bag.

[C]

He goes and collects the bags of heads. Yeah.

[A]

And he, like, throws it to her feet, and she's like, oh, what a. What a gesture. But what I like about this now here, the reason why I think it works, and I think it works for this particular trope, is that it's not done in, like, in the moment. It's done as, like, my job is to make sure that you are protected forever. And in that sense, I am going to make sure that your villains are vanquished.

[B]

Yes. And what you don't want is a hothead, because a explosive man is scary, but a calculating man who makes a plan. That's what you want.

[C]

I had to go back, Sarah, to an early so in the first season of the podcast, we had what we called the Lost Limb count, which is you're essentially keeping track of all of the people in this series of books that, like, lost some limb.

[B]

Is it the Gorilla Twins books?

[A]

No, Gorilla Twins is not. They are not shifters. They are just historical men, one of whom dies by gorilla attack.

[B]

Oh, okay, what's the one where the guy is, like, being tortured forever?

[A]

Oh, that's the first in this series. This Immortals After Dark series.

[B]

Yes, you told me about this. Okay, yeah, yeah.

[C]

So anyway, but we actually on this list, Sarah, have beheading as a romantic gesture and then a subsection for batting as a non romantic judge.

[A]

Ah.

[C]

So, I mean, I just need you to understand that, like, we were really down on this from the beginning. This was, like, something we were interested in. But, I mean, I think that part of it is like, I saw something on Threads where as a woman who was like, you know, I'd be really upset if my husband, like, punched somebody.

[A]

Why is this.

[C]

Why is this always in a romance? And I was like, because we're not talking about your fucking husband, Jan. We're talking about fantasy.

[B]

Right? People have got to learn this. There is a sep. There's a separation between, like, you know what I want in a man in real life? Like, I don't want a sad man. I don't want to, like a morose, like, brooding, like, won't cheer up guy. Like, you know, me and my husband were pals. We have fun.

[A]

Yeah, that's a different thing entirely. Shadows claim is that we're talking about John. Sure you don't have the. You don't have the list?

[C]

Well, I was looking at Lothair, which predates that.

[A]

Oh, I'm pretty sure it's Shadow's claim. Everyone that I'm talking about, about where there is a bag of severed heads and it is a romantic gesture.

[C]

Yeah, but.

[A]

And I do think that in that book, Trehan Dasiano is. He is sad. He is obviously also a. A, A Kressley Cole hero, which means, like, he is also just, like, angry and all the other feelings. But, you know, he's just the calculation that these heroes have to make.

[C]

Right.

[A]

In order to choose to punch someone in service to their partner.

[C]

Well, I also like when they punch walls. I will admit this.

[A]

Well, but that's a hot headed thing.

[C]

Well, it's true. I do think it's a little different.

[A]

It's like, right.

[C]

Like I have feelings and I don't know where they're gonna go. So I guess they'll just whack my fist. Right. I mean, I think that's it. It's like there's like. Oh, right. Feelings can enter your body any number of ways, but they can only exit one way.

[B]

I do love a wall punch because it's a little like, I ha. I will not hurt anyone else, but I will hurt myself. Which is like self sacrificial, right? Yeah, sort of.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And in Lothair, he punches so many walls at some point that like the wall actually falls down. And I was like, correct. And then he's ready to admit that he has feelings. So, I mean, I do like this. I do like it when they. Then they punch walls. But I mean, I also think, like, this isn't just. I mean, I've been like, I've been reading Dungeon Crawler Carl, which Sarah's been hearing me talk about, and I actually now have a whole theory that, like, if I was smarter and had more time and cared to, I would write like a really interesting essay about how Jack Reacher, Murderbot and Carl are actually all the same character. Right. That they're all like, just like sort of men drifting through the world. I have to survive by punching things and, you know, I don't want to have feelings about that, so I'm just going to keep punching things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Murderbot, by the way, arguably a sad hero who punches things.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Yep. Yeah.

[C]

And I think Jack Reacher is the same and I definitely think Carl is the same. So, I mean, I do think there's a way in which, like when we see it in romance, I think it's like a pretty accurate sort of like, I mean, like.

[B]

Right, What?

[C]

Like the one acceptable feeling a man is allowed to have, like in the world of the patriarchy, is anger.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And so it makes sense, of course, that like, we would get punching as a way of like, kind of managing those feelings. It's like the only way. I mean, so Sarah reminded me that, like, there's a book I love called Manage by Kristin Callahan where Scotty, who's the main character, he's like the manager for the band. I mean, so talk about competence. Right? Deeply locked into, you know, like, the band is allowed to have feelings. They are the ones he's managing. It is literally his job to just like keep shit together and keep it all tight for the band, keep everything moving forward. And then when he has like his own emotional feelings, he literally has to like fly away for the weekend and just do like, underground fighting.

[A]

He's just a secret MMA fighter because. And no one Knows where he goes. He just sort of disappears into.

[B]

There's an element to this of, like, the kind of exhaustion, you know? I also like a tired man.

[C]

Exasperated man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where he's just like. He's so tired of holding it together that he just, like, can't, you know, anymore.

[C]

And.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know. Tired, sad into it.

[A]

Sarah.

[C]

I also was gonna say something about Jack in Storms. Storms also, their romance is really the B plot. Right.

[B]

Like, despite what people say, it's what a B plot?

[C]

What a B plot. Right. But I really laugh because at the point where he punches out Alice's, like, dumbass ex boyfriend who shows up, I remember thinking, like, I wonder if, like, the regular year. I wonder if the normies reading this are like, wait, what just happened? Right. Probably that's not how people act. And romance readers were like, fuck, yeah.

[B]

It's a romance. I recommended Storms to a friend of mine who really only reads. I don't. You know, she reads very normal. Yeah. She doesn't read genre fiction of any kind, which is fun for us. Cause I'm like, good luck with these books of mine. And she was just like. It was so sexy. And I was like, yeah. I mean, it's not like, that surprising. And she was like, I've never. Like, she just was clutching her pearls about it.

[A]

Her pearls.

[B]

I was like, this is very funny. I have to enjoy it.

[A]

Do we feel like she finished it, though, and enjoyed it?

[B]

Listen,

[A]

she's not gonna give it to her mom.

[B]

I think she. I think it awakened something in her, to be honest. I do think it's a little bit of a gateway book. Like, if you liked this, you will love all these other books.

[A]

Welcome to romance.

[C]

But I mean, like, the point when Jack punches like that to me was like, it's such a romance moment. And it was really. I really found myself thinking, like, I wonder what the normies.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I wonder what the normies are thinking.

[B]

It's the first punch that I like the most where he just calmly gets out of the car.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And does it. And doesn't talk about it. And he gets back in, and he's just like, well, that's done.

[A]

I mean, Joanna Shoup likes to say that, you know, you're In a Sarah MacLaine novel if somebody gets justifiably punched in the face.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is, I think, a fair assessment of my work. But I also feel like there's. When we're talking about, you know, sad heroes, like, who are. I also like the Qualifier like sad heroes who, like, take a backseat to the magnificence of the heroine. I think there is one contemporary writer who at least her, like, early books all really do this well, and that is Charlotte Stein, who writes a very. I mean, okay, I would say there are two sort of movements in Charlotte Stein's work. I think, like, there is the early movement. Those are mostly like, very erotic texts.

[C]

Oh, yeah, they're all.

[A]

We. We've talked about this on the podcast. Like, we haven't talked about Charlotte in a long time, I don't think. But, like, in the early years, we used to sort of refer to this as like, a romance in a phone booth. Like, she just closes the walls around the. The hero and heroine so tightly that, like, you really feel almost uncomfortable being in there with them because they're so hot for each other. And like, so it's so intense. And then, like, more recently, Charlotte is, like, expanding her world. Like the. We're not in phone booths anymore. We're sort of in, like, broader. She's now writing sort of cozy. Cozy, like paranormal rom coms. Yeah, but so. But these early. So I would say, like, especially in these early books, her heroes are often like, God, they're. They're actually very angel coded. They're. They, like, hate each other. They hate themselves. Like, they're basically like, don't perceive me. I'm disgusting. Like, I'm the worst real, like, Beauty and the Beast vibe. Like, the Beast.

[B]

Say more.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think I was trying to sort of think through, like, what is the Charlotte Stein book that I think sort of does this really well? And I think. I think that if you're willing to try out a, like, professor student erotic text, then I think her book, the professor is like, a really good example of this. This man doesn't like to be touched either. Neither does Scotty, by the way. In managed. Like, I think, like, he's like, they're so sad and, like, broken that they, like, refuse to even, like, accept physical touch. He doesn't like to be touched. His story is. That is very tragic. Like, he, likes. Feels responsible for the death of, like, his sister during a house fire when he was young. When they were young. Like, his parents are dead. Like, he's just a mess, but he's so brittle and rigid on the outside. And she. This. The premise of the setup of this is very fun and kind of classic, but she accidentally turn. Instead of turning in her English lit paper to him, she turns in, like, an erotic story that's sort of, like, him coded. And then he calls her to his office.

[C]

Like, it's great.

[A]

Hot. I mean, this is like very, very, like, high end on the erotic romance spectrum. But then, like, it's so intense because, again, like, we're in the phone booth with them and it's all feelings, but he refuses to acknowledge that any of it is feelings. And so he's. And he's just so broken and also doesn't like to be touched. Like, and so, you know, when it all kind of comes crumbling down, like, he, at one point, like, he leaves, like, leaves town, like, leaves the country. Because he's like, I can't. I can't deal with the feelings. And it is very. He is very. But you also feel like he. He's so deeply committed to her and he thinks she's a beautiful writer. And, like, he. So obviously this is, like, contemporary, so he's not gonna, you know, take off the head of her enemy. But, like, it is a sort of. It has the same coding. And I think Charlotte's early books all sort of feel this way.

[B]

I had a more recent and more maybe, like, sweeter example of this, but it's how to End a Love Story by Yuling Kuang. I mean, the pain between them is so real. So the premise is that her sister died by suicide when she was young, but the way that she ended her life is that she ran into traffic and he was driving the car, so it's not his fault.

[A]

Awful.

[B]

Yeah. Very serious and, like, handled appropriately, I think, in the book. But so that's like, what's between them. And I love the, like, I don't know, this feeling that, like, people can find their way to each other despite this painful internal obstacle. Like, because we, you know, we see a lot of external obstacles in romance. And that's great, but, like, I'm so much more interested in, like, the things that keep people from giving themselves anything good and, like, what makes them relax. Then.

[C]

I like that.

[A]

I really love a hero who feels undeserving. Like, I mean, I. I can't even, like, don't perceive me. I can't even look at you. You're too good for me. That kind of thing. And I think that all sort of codes into this too. As long as I do think competence is the thread in this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This particular hero we're talking about, though.

[C]

Wait, okay, so wait, is there actually punching in how to end a love story?

[A]

No, it's a fun thing.

[B]

It's a sweeter example. But he's competent. He's good at his job, and he's like. He's a capable person, actually very charming. Everyone loves him, but he. Then they, like, are thrown together and he doesn't know what to do, which is understandable. Yeah. And just pines for her, you know?

[A]

This week's episode of Faded Mates is sponsored by Lumi Gummies. Consistent, mellow, and super delicious, Lumi Gummies are specifically designed to make you feel good, not stoned. Whether you're looking for an end of day distressor a midday mood boost or help getting the best sleep ever, Lumi Gummies has a strain that's right for you. You like sleep.

[C]

I do like sleep.

[A]

And you know what I mean. Me too.

[C]

This does help me sleep. And, you know, it's funny because for me, people have heard me talk about this, like, I kind of battle restless leg syndrome. And, you know, some nights are just, like, better than others, and I, like, have my, like, regular medicine, but sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night and just, like, have a hard time getting back to sleep. Right. I mean, it's not like, you know, I just kind of, like, sometimes I wander around the house, sometimes I want to get a snack, and then sometimes I want to take a gummy. And whatever it is that feels right, like, it just helps me go back to sleep and just really, like, kind of sleep through to the alarm rather than like, kind of constantly feeling like I'm waking up. And so it is a terrific thing.

[A]

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[C]

And from sponsoring my sleep, I love this trope, but I also don't always remember it. I don't know how to explain that. Right. Like, it doesn't. It doesn't, like, sort of hook into my memory as, like, oh, this is, like, a memorable thing about this book. So I did ask in our discord, I was like, you guys remind me of books where this is the king. Like, where do people do this? And then, of course, they listed, like, books. I'm like, yeah, I read that. I love that book. Yeah, I read that. I love that book. So I do want to, like, give a heads up because the two books I will end up talking about, like, Straight up where people in the doors. Kid Discord reminded me of books I'd already read that have the, like, sad boys who punch things. This one, though, they're very different. So Rachel reminded me of how much I love the Dragon and the Pearl by Jeannie Lynn, which is the second book after Butterfly Swords, which is awesome. Also, he's kind of a sad boy who punches things. He's like this like, sad assassin on the run. But in the Dragon and the Pearl, Li Tao, who is like kind of the villain of the first book. And this is in Tang Dynasty China, so it's like 1770 something, I think he return. He is like sort of like a fixer, almost an assassin. Kind of like a. Like a bad guy who like, works for the emperor and he ends up going to the home of like. Everyone calls her Lady Ling. And Ling Suyin is essentially. Was like the. The. Basically the.

[A]

The.

[C]

The emperors. The previous emperor, the one who had just died like his most famous concubine. And everyone thought that she was essentially like, you know, I don't know, like, just sort of like a negative influence on the emperor. Like, there's all these things, right? Like, whatever. Like, just like she had this really. This reputation for having like, almost like stolen his attention away. And, you know, just everyone was like, yeah, she's like the real fucking deal. Because look what she was able to do, the emperor. So anyway, not too far into the book, like, pretty early Li Tao, there's this like, intense chemistry between them and they. They have sex, okay? And basically he like thrusts into her and realizes she is a virgin. But they're already doing it, okay? And so here's the great part. He really can't stop himself because. And it's like, listen, the way this scene is written. The way this scene is written, it's in. We're in her point of view. And she's like, God damn, they told me this would hurt.

[B]

But whoa.

[C]

And he. You can. You know, she's like reading on his face that he kind of hates himself for. For keeping going. And he's like. So then he like makes fists and they're like by his. By her shoulders as he's like pumping away, right? And then. Wait, you guys, listen. He comes and she does not. And afterwards, he fucking punches the floor. Like as he's like getting up, just like punches the floor in frustration and is basically like, how. How are you?

[B]

Right?

[C]

The most famous fucking concubine. The woman who was to supposed. Supposedly, you know, like. And basically, as it turns out, the emperor had been injured in battle and was impotent. Right. You know, and so she essentially was kind of keeping his secret. And so it was like this convenience that she turned into like, sort of the story was, you know, that she had like, sort of like stolen his attention away. But really she was the one protecting the Emperor's secret. So then these two essentially agree to have like a month together. And it turns out he's like part of this assassin clan and he has to tattoo her. And I. Ooh, sexy tattoo. Yes, sexy tattoo. And then when, like the bad assassins find her and they look at her tattoo, they realize that essentially it's like a mark of protection. And I'm just going to tell you. So like Megan in the Discord or. No, it was Rachel in the Discord who reminded me of this one. And I was like, oh, shit. Yeah. But like, when he literally like punches the ground after they have sex, and part of the reason he punches the ground is because he didn't make her come. He knows that. So he like kind of storms out of the room and then comes back, eats her out because he's like, okay, I gotta, like, make sure that you come and then we'll talk about this later. Is great.

[B]

Amazing.

[C]

And you know, it's also really, I mean, he's. He's not like a terrible villain in the first book, but he is desperately unlikable. We see him as being really, I don't know, like manipulative and write all those things and, you know, working against the lovers of book one. And then when we see him in his own book, of course we're like, oh, he's just a sad boy.

[B]

Misunderstood, misunderstood.

[A]

Amazing.

[C]

It's awesome.

[A]

There is another version of this boy who is, you know, so sad that he basically punches himself. And, and that is, I think, the protagonist of Lisa Claypas, Love in the Afternoon, which is a Hathaway book. So everybody knows we love Lisa here. The Hathaways are actually under glass. Jen is keeping the whole series. It's a reading. It's a in case of emergency series for Jen. Okay, but the. So the premise of this book is there's like quirky family. That's the overarching premise of the series. But within the context of this book, the youngest Hathaway, who sort of like has been allowed to like, run just free for. In Victorian England and like, is very curious, like, has lots of like, weird pet animals and things.

[C]

Her.

[A]

This is all set during the, During. During the wars of the. Of the Victorian era. I believe that, like, I don't know which war, but somebody's out there that there's a war going on. And Captain Christopher Phelan. Oh, it's the Crimean War. And he is off, like, in the Crimea fighting, and he is in love with another woman. This is a. It's a Cyrano story. He's in love with another woman at home, or thinks he's in love with another woman at home, who is Beatrix's friend. And he's sending letters home from the. The front, and they are depressing. He is sad because he is at war. And the friend home at home. Beatrix's friend is like, la. I wish that these letters were less of a bummer. And so I am. I don't really know what to say to him. Like, but he used to. You know, he's very handsome and he's a war hero, but, like, these letters. And Beatrix is like, yeah, they're a bummer. He's at war. And so she starts to write a

[B]

woman with some perspective. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And so she starts to write back to him about, like, all the happenings in their little town, like, and she. But as her friend. And so he falls wildly in love with her via these letters. She falls in love with him. They're exchanging letters, like, every day, and it's like. It's amazing. And they are fully in love. And then he gets back and she's like, oh, shit. And because his first thought is, I gotta go to Prudence. That's the name of the friend, and I gotta find her.

[C]

She.

[A]

Like, the first thing he wants to do is see Prudence. He wants to. He's in love with her. She saved his life, basically. And Prudence is like, hey, dude. Hey. And then. And Beatrix is like, oh.

[C]

Oh, shit.

[A]

And doesn't tell him. But instantly, the moment that he meets Prudence, he's like, I. You're not her. Like, you're not who was sending me letters. So, like, over. So the first half of this book is, like, him trying to figure out what happened. And, like, Beatrix really, like, in chaos in her mind about, like, how. How she's going to tell him the truth, because this is a pretty big betrayal. And then he figures it out, and he immediately, like, they are immediately married. He is like, we are like, I'm furious with you in very similar way. Like, we're gonna. I'm eat you out. And then we're gonna talk about this later, kind of. Which is a whole separate trope.

[C]

I mean, that's a great trope. Let's put it on the list.

[B]

And then.

[A]

So this is all, you know, happening, and then it's. But of course, he's been at war. And so Clepus writes, this hero has very intense ptsd. He is very uncertain about his ability to keep her safe with him. Like, because he is having flashbacks. He can't sleep. He is. He's very worried about her safety with him, and he does not think he is a good partner. And Clepis is very careful here. Like, she is threatening. You know, often I think we have this sort of instinct, especially in historicals, to, like, cure things like this with love. And that is not what happens here. Like, and he is. He is so sort of wrecked by his own mental health issues that he. He, like, keeps himself from her. And, like, he tortures himself more because of his intense desire to keep her safe and to, like, love her properly. And it is really emotional. This is, I think, one of Lisa's most emotional books because it really does dig into it. It's really working with, like, these really human things that happen. But also, I love an epistolary romance. So I was pre. I was predisposed to love this book from the beginning. But there is something very beautiful about, like, how this hero is crafted to protect her and stand with her and keep her safe from, like, the perception of the world. Right. Because Beatrix also feels like. I mean, this is sort of a very minor thing compared to going to war. But, you know, she feels, like, odd. Everybody treats her like she's a weirdo. She kind of is. Like, she's been allowed to sort of be feral in the world. Her family is, like, full of chaos and scandal. And he's like, I will do anything to keep you safe, but also, I am danger to you.

[B]

Yes. It reminds me. This reminds me of vampire stuff. Oh, yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like the historic. This is. I always try and tell people, if you like fantasy romance, you will also like historical, because the same things appear. You know, like, the vibe will be similar, even though the magic or whatever is not there. But, Jen, it's interesting you should say that. You didn't. You found this hard to think of, like, examples, because I also did. Even though I love it, I was just like, wait, wait, have I ever

[C]

read this in a book? I mean, I literally was like, have I ever read this in a book?

[A]

But then when you start to think about it, you're like, oh, some of my favorite books are this. I just don't think about it.

[B]

Yeah, I just had to look at, like, everything I'd read.

[C]

It appears in so many books. I love that it doesn't become memorable on its own. Right? And I think, like, another. Like, a really good example. And again, like, Meg reminded me of this. And this is a book I've talked about a million times because I love this book. It's. Wait for it.

[A]

By M. O'. Keefe.

[C]

By Molly o'.

[A]

Keefe.

[C]

And in this book.

[A]

Oh, that's a great example.

[C]

It's a great example. So thanks, Meg, for being my memory. But, like, so in this book, in an. Okay, so there's a. The duology is called Everything I Left Unsaid. That begins. And in this book, the heroine has, like, a neighbor. She lives in a trailer park, and the neighbor's name is Tiffany, and Tiffany has three kids, and she has an abusive husband. And at the end of that duology, the husband's brother, whose name is Blake, shows up and essentially, like, writes Tiffany a check to keep her away from him and his family. Like, kind of, like, leaves her with Phil, who's the bad brother, and, like, writes her this check, and she's actually, like, kind of extorts more money out of him. And it's really interesting. We see her as being deeply sympathetic at that point, but also kind of not really seeing what's gonna happen. And then she shows up at a later time, and it's clear Phil is abusive to her. And so then Tiffany ends up getting her own book, and the person she falls in love with is Phil's shitty brother, the one who wrote her that check. And so it's called. Wait for it. And so in this book, it starts off with he, like, sort of. She goes to ask for help from her friend, and Blake is there, and he's kind of, like, being a jerk, and she. She punches him in the face.

[B]

Perfect. She is the one who punches things.

[C]

And he, at this point, really kind of realizes how wrong he was, how wrong he was about Tiffany, how wrong he was about Phil, how wrong he also was to keep the presence, his knowledge of Tiffany and her children from his mother, right? Because he's like, these kids could have had grandkids. My mother could have had grandchildren. Like, right? Like, it's this really painful moment for him where he realizes how fucked up he has. How he has fucked everything up. Like, misread everything. And so his sadness is really about, like, he's a deeply competent man who did it all wrong. And so she. He then, like, kind of shows up, like, kind of the inciting incident of the book, outside of, like, her punching him, is that Phil then, like, essentially, like, ruins her apartment. She's in financial straits again, and he, like, realizes how scared she is of Phil and he offers to help teach her essentially, like, self defense. So then we get like, self. Sexy self defense lessons.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what I mean? Which is great. So he's like, teaching to take care of herself. But still, at the end of the book, he gets to punch out his own brother. And, you know, but the whole, like, way that the story turns on, you know, like, he cannot be violent or explosively violent. That's how Phil was with her. And so, like, he has to really learn to respect that. Like, she is gonna have a really different kind of relationship with any man who might seem violent and that her, like. And the part where he kind of goads her into, like, fighting back, it's just like this really beautifully written scene where, like, she just. It's like all of her rage just like, comes right. Like, it's very coded as, like, you know, like, who is allowed to feel explosive rage. And so to have a woman in the book be able to, like, really experience that. So it's a great example and just like, again, a really great book of, you know, he's not a violent man, but he's, like, competent.

[A]

You know, he's like, yeah, I box

[C]

and I know how to do all this stuff. But, you know, there's a part where, you know, but he has never used his violence to harm people, but his brother has. And so it's like a really, really powerful look at, like, both how he has to manage her differently, but his own relationship with Punching, essentially, it's great.

[B]

I did think of another one along the lines of, I don't know, knowing how to control yourself. Paladin's Grace by T Kingfisher is. I feel like this is a good entry point. And people are like, I don't know about fantasy. I don't want too much fantasy. It's like a murder mystery, but it is primarily a romance. And this man, Steven, is a paladin, just like a knight, you know, sort of. But he's taken an oath, which, first of all, I love a man who takes an oath, but his God dies, which is interesting at the start. And so he's tremendously sad because his entire purpose for living and the one to whom he swore his oath is dead. So he's like, what do I do?

[C]

Meaning, you know, now what do I do?

[B]

But as part of, like, I think the sort of magic of taking this oath is that he can enter like berserker mode where he's like not aware of himself and becomes tremendously violent and he's like afraid, you know, of being that way again and especially around her because she's. I don't remember her name. I should have looked this up.

[C]

But yeah, this is how it goes on the podcast. You're like, wait, I haven't.

[A]

Yeah, you weren't intending to talk about it and here we are.

[C]

Come on.

[B]

She's like a perfumer. She is, you know, just like a normal person who gets caught up in this murder thing and he doesn't want to hurt her, you know, so it's this feeling of like, self restraint, of like a man who's aware of how dangerous he is, I think is again, like an exaggeration of a real. Like men are usually bigger than us and they should be aware of their size and menace. And so it's like the fantasy version of that is like if I lose, it's like Edward in Twilight. It's like, oh, if I lose control for one second, I'll kill her, you know?

[C]

Yeah, I might break the bed.

[A]

Well, this is why, like you said, vampire coded is so. Is so hot because it is about sort of protection, power and also acknowledging the power in humans, I mean, which is, you know, also coded as women usually.

[B]

Yeah. And the force of desire, you know, like, I want you so bad that it's dangerous.

[C]

I mean, sexier than that, right? That's the whole ball game.

[A]

I mean, we talk all the time about how the best thing in paranormals is when there's like a paranormal character and a human character. And the paranormal character is like, why the fuck are you so breakable?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is a terrible structure.

[C]

Who made this?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, the architect of whatever this is was a real mess.

[B]

The hardest thing for me to get behind is when the paranormal creature is described as having hard skin. And I'm like, that's not great, guys. I don't think you actually want that.

[A]

The first book in the Discovery of Witches series sort of has this vibe too. The hero of that, of that. I was not intending to talk about this book, so I apologize everybody. But the, you know, the hero of that book, it's now, you know, there it's present day, he's a thousand years old. She discovers though kind of right away that she's like a really powerful witch. You know, she thought she. She was raised by witches, but she didn't think she had power. It turns out she was you know, her power had been like tamped down. She discovers that she has like, powers of w. Of witchcraft that like no one has had in, you know, 300 years or whatever. But also because it's now it's 2025 or whenever it is 2020 when the book came out. You know, like these paranormal creatures, the. The vampires like have, have like kind of. They're like normal now. Like they like go to work, you know, they, you know, live their lives.

[C]

They tamed them, Sarah.

[A]

I mean, they're secret. Humans don't know they exist. But like, they're just like normal people. But as soon as like her powers awaken the attention of, you know, all of the mystical people or creatures in the world, like, suddenly this man who is very like, learn. He's like a chemist or biologist or something. Like, he's very learned and very like proper and has not like ripped the throat out of a person in.

[B]

In quite some time.

[A]

Centuries. But now he's like, I'll do anything to keep this, you know, witch safe.

[B]

And in the TV show he's Matthew Good. And he does.

[A]

He has like crazy eyes in the TV show. That's true.

[B]

And he like, you know that scene where the vampire man goes like very still because he's like, if you move, I will kill you.

[A]

Oh, he's very good at that. Matthew Good.

[B]

He's so good at that.

[A]

He's so English. It just really works out.

[C]

Yes. So amazing. Yeah. This is a great trope.

[A]

I love it. Veronica, we are so excited to have you tell us a little bit about you. I mean, you obviously have written the second book already in this series.

[B]

It's actually taking a lot of self control not to tell you what it's called because it's had a title.

[A]

Oh, you can't tell us? No, I can't tell anyone.

[B]

I mean, I can tell you after, but.

[A]

Oh my God. Well, when is it going to be announced and when will. When can we learn more?

[B]

I don't know. I'm not sure when book. You know, we gotta get through book one. Release first and then we'll talk about the timing.

[A]

So there will be a second book at some point.

[B]

Will be a second book. It is done. So it's not one of those, like, if I get invested in this series, is it never going to be complete? No, it's done.

[C]

It's done.

[B]

Definitely going to come out.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And then you made another big announcement recently. Would you like to talk about that?

[B]

We did, yeah. So I am returning to the divergent universe with an alternate universe story that follows roughly the same timeline as the original Divergent, but Triss makes a different choice of faction.

[A]

So exciting.

[B]

That's.

[C]

That's so fun.

[B]

Yes, it was very fun. It was.

[A]

And was this just like, Is it an idea you've always sort of been noodling, or did it just come to you like lightning?

[B]

I was like, absolutely not. I will not be revisiting Divergent. I think part of that is just if you start your career with something you don't want to feel like you can never grow past that point. And also, it carried a lot of baggage for me. So it was, to be clear, like, mostly extremely positive and a huge thing in my life that I'm grateful for. But anything that's that popular attracts a lot of negativity. And as an anxious person, I suck all that negativity in like a sponge. So to me, it was like this heavy thing in my life for a long time. And a couple years ago, I was like, okay, well, it's still selling, like, during the pandemic, you know, when my new books were not doing well. Because if you can't travel and you can't promote in person, it's really hard to get a book going. So my new book was, like, not doing so great. But then Divergent sales started to surge because those old mainstays, like, books people had already heard of, they were doing really well in that time. So I was just like, okay, I guess Divergent's here to stay. So, like, I need to fix the way that I relate to it.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

And the best way to do that was to make something totally new, just so that when I talk about it, I feel like we're talking about the work I'm doing now and not the work I was doing, you know, 15 years ago.

[A]

That is really an. I love. I'm. I'm always really interested in, you know, when. The early books from an author. I mean, I love early books from an author because I feel like those sort of first books, especially your literal first book, is always such a. It's so, like, pure. There's like, you. You really have, like, kind of open to vein and, like, this is the thing you've been, like, dreaming of telling. And so I'm always interested in that. But also I feel like when you have a book that has such immense success at the very beginning of your career, I'm sure it is like, oh, well, now it does sort of like, it is. It is always going to be there. So I love that this is giving you a chance to. To do something new with it for yourself. So that is coming out in the fall, is that right?

[B]

Yes. The Six Faction is what it's called. It comes out in October, so that'll be exciting. And there's two of those, too, and they are also both done. I feel like every author when I say this. Every author's like, I'm going to kill you. I'm going to kill you.

[C]

I think that's. You got to be careful out there on the streets.

[B]

I know, I know. But the thing is, I sold secrets.

[C]

The team of literary assassins will be after you with their paper cuts.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

I just want you to teach me your ways, that's all.

[B]

All you have to do is keep secrets for a long time. Because I sold Seek the traitor sun in 2022, so it's not like. Or I sold it in 2023, but it was finished. The first book was finished in 2022, so it's not like I wrote all these really close together. I've been writing them for, like, four years. Yeah, but they're all done now and then.

[A]

Are you going back to the When Among Crows world?

[B]

That's my hope. Yeah. So there's two in that series, and I have a plan for the third, but I was obviously like, okay, you're busy. It's going to take a little time. Yes, but that is my audition.

[C]

Is the Six Faction, is that going to be ya, though? Or is it a return to YA then?

[B]

It is a return to ya. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of YA authors are, like, I think, coming to terms with how. Because there was a boom when they were writing their books, they maybe made a book ya, or were pressured to make it ya if it was actually better suited to adults. That's not where Divergent is for me. That is a classic ya. It is cluster.

[C]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah. So it is still ya. And don't worry, it still has a strong romantic B plot.

[A]

And a beautiful special edition is happening too, because it's an anniversary year. Right. Is that true?

[B]

Yes. There's a very shiny, very shiny deluxe edition of Divergent out there now. It's beautiful. It's a really nice book, but it has a little sneak peek of the Six Faction in the back. Just a little, like a portion of a chapter. So it's just enough to annoy you.

[A]

Excellent. Well, everyone, Seek the Traitor's Son is out now. Wherever you can get your books. It is really great. And it Has a very lovely romance that runs in through it. It is not the A plot, but it is. I. After I closed this book, I thought to myself, well, I wonder if Veronica Roth will ever come over to our side.

[B]

Man, I feel like we're heading a straight down the.

[A]

I feel like we're heading there too.

[B]

I will say I really love romance. It's just that I also, like, my brain is like. But what about the spaceships and politics?

[A]

Well, you can have.

[C]

Well, you can have that.

[B]

You just have to. You can't have that. You just have to like, play with the balance.

[A]

Yeah, you just have to switch your balance.

[C]

I mean, listen, it's like. Is it a B or. It's like more like a B plot. So you're getting there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're moving in the right direction as far as I'm concerned.

[B]

Yes. But I am grateful to the popularity of Romantasy because I think for those of us who wanted just a little more romance in the fantasy, like, demonstrated that there is a. Since your desire for that and the readership and it gave us like, all like me and Victoria Aveyard, who's writing an adult. Like, it's not Romantasy, but it's more romantic. Whatever that comes out in the fall. We're talking about this. It's just like you gave yourself permission, like, I can do it. So I think that's good for everyone.

[A]

Well, it is interesting too, because we, you know, when you wrote Divergent, what is it 10 years ago?

[B]

Is it 15?

[A]

15 years ago? So. Because there was a pandemic in there. So when you wrote Divergent initially and Victoria was writing the Red, like everything was happening sort of right around the same time. It felt very much like then we were still in the world where like, romance made a book sort of second class in. In some way. You know, I remember back in the, like right around that time, there were so many men who were complaining because, like, all these young women were writing their books with kissing in them. And like, these were not real books. They were not really fantasy. They were not really sci fi.

[B]

And the same happened in YA too. So I feel like, you know, that's what I mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And ya are together in this. But now a lot of those books. Ya.

[C]

Because maybe those men should go punch something.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

Seriously, isn't that how we deal with.

[A]

I know.

[C]

If you have feelings, go hit a wall.

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, so we are very excited. I'm very excited to welcome you over on this side for a little bit and thank you.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

I hope you'll decide to stay. Okay, well, where and where can people find you online if they want to follow you?

[B]

They can find me@veronicaroth books.com, but also on Instagram and on threads where I'm just Veronica Roth and I do a

[A]

lot of threading, talking about Toby Ziegler if you have.

[B]

If you want to see some hot takes.

[A]

Okay, well, I'm Sarah McLean. I'm here with my friends Jen Prokop and Veronica Roth. We are Faded Mates. You can find us every Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts. Every book that we talked about today will be available. You can see a full list on our website@faded mates.net just click on episodes and we keep a full list of everything that we talk about, talked about. We will find the titles of all the books that we sort of vaguely referred to as well, they'll all be on there. You'll also find links to all the Veronica places where you can follow her and links to Seek the Traitor Son, the new edition of Divergent, and pre order links to anything else that she's got coming, all the many books she's already written. And if you want to find us online, you can do that [e-mail] or on Instagram or threads at Fated Mates Pod on Bluesky, at Fated Mates. And join us on our discord to talk more about sad boys who like to punch things. You can do that by joining our [e-mail] patreon thanks everybody. We hope you have a great week. It.