BITESIZE | How to Make New Habits Stick & Why You Can’t Break Old Habits | Charles Duhigg #521

Summary

Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee Episode Summary: BITESIZE | How to Make New Habits Stick & Why You Can’t Break Old Habits | Charles Duhigg #521 Release Date: February 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Feel Better, Live More, Dr. Rangan Chatterjee engages in a captivating conversation with Charles Duhigg, the acclaimed author of the international bestseller The Power of Habit. The discussion delves deep into the mechanisms of habit formation and transformation, offering listeners actionable strategies to cultivate new behaviors and break entrenched ones.

Understanding the Science of Habits

Charles Duhigg opens the dialogue by highlighting the persistent challenge many face in altering undesired behaviors despite making short-term changes. He emphasizes that while initiating new habits is achievable, maintaining them is often where individuals stumble.

“You can't extinguish a bad habit because those neural pathways stay in play.”
— Charles Duhigg [00:57]

Duhigg explains that habits are entrenched in our brain's neural pathways, making them resilient to change. This underscores the importance of understanding the underlying mechanics to effectively modify behaviors.

Breaking Down Habit Formation

The conversation introduces the Habit Loop, a concept central to Duhigg's framework for understanding habits. This loop consists of three components:

1. Cue: The trigger that initiates the behavior.
2. Routine: The behavior itself.
3. Reward: The benefit gained from the behavior.

“Every habit that exists in our life has a reward, whether we're aware of it or not.”
— Charles Duhigg [02:05]

By identifying these components, individuals can dissect their habits to understand what drives them and how to alter their behaviors effectively.

The Role of Rewards and Self-Soothing

Duhigg elaborates on the concept of rewards, particularly focusing on self-soothing as a common underlying motivator for habits like consuming sugar or chocolate.

“Once we know that it's self-soothing as opposed to the taste of chocolate or the buzz that chocolate gives me, then at that point it's a question of what else also delivers self-soothing.”
— Charles Duhigg [02:55]

He suggests that by recognizing the true reward sought—such as emotional comfort—individuals can identify healthier alternatives to fulfill that need, thereby breaking the cycle of the undesired habit.

Practical Application: Replacing Habits

Duhigg shares a personal anecdote from his time at the New York Times, where he struggled with an afternoon cookie habit. Through experimenting with different rewards, he discovered that the actual reward was the social interaction rather than the cookie itself.

“The reward for me was this social experience. The cookie was an excuse.”
— Charles Duhigg [04:37]

This realization led him to substitute the act of buying a cookie with engaging in conversation with colleagues, effectively eliminating the cookie habit by addressing the true reward.

The Power of Small Wins and Momentum

Dr. Chatterjee and Duhigg discuss the science of small wins, emphasizing that incremental changes can build significant momentum over time. Duhigg illustrates this with his journey to becoming a runner, where he started with minimal effort and gradually increased his commitment.

“Change happens. We find something that's unexpected, that makes it easier for us to change. We find a reward that we didn't anticipate.”
— Charles Duhigg [07:15]

This approach aligns with clinical practices where starting small—such as meditating for one minute—can lead to sustainable habit formation by reducing the perception of difficulty and fostering a sense of achievement.

Keystone Habits: Catalysts for Broader Change

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to keystone habits, which are powerful habits that trigger a cascade of positive changes in other areas of life. Duhigg explains that certain habits, like regular exercise, can redefine how individuals perceive themselves and influence other behaviors implicitly.

“Exercise is a great example... It changes other patterns, like eating patterns and spending patterns.”
— Charles Duhigg [12:36]

By establishing a keystone habit, individuals can create a new identity that supports various other beneficial habits, making overall change more manageable and cohesive.

Building and Sustaining New Habits

Duhigg provides practical strategies for cultivating new habits:

1. Identify Keystone Habits: Determine which habits have the potential to influence other areas positively.
2. Choose Effective Cues: Use visual or temporal cues to trigger the desired behavior.
3. Select Meaningful Rewards: Ensure that the satisfaction derived from the habit is genuinely fulfilling.
4. Embrace Small Steps: Start with manageable actions to build confidence and momentum.

“With consistent cues and rewards, each day it will get a little bit easier.”
— Charles Duhigg [18:03]

He underscores that repetition and consistency are key, as the brain's basal ganglia work to make these patterns automatic over time, eventually requiring minimal conscious effort.

Overcoming Challenges in Habit Formation

Addressing potential setbacks, Duhigg reassures listeners that while forming new habits may not be easy initially, persistence leads to gradual ease and eventual automaticity.

“By the time you hit day 21 or you hit day 30 or day 45, at some point it's gonna become a habit.”
— Charles Duhigg [16:53]

He likens the process to brushing teeth—a behavior so ingrained that it's performed without conscious thought, emphasizing that new habits follow a similar trajectory with time and consistency.

Conclusion

The episode culminates with a reinforcement of the importance of understanding habit mechanics to foster meaningful change. Dr. Chatterjee and Charles Duhigg inspire listeners to approach habit formation with patience, strategic planning, and an emphasis on small, incremental victories.

“Stories are so powerful. We start to tell ourselves a story about ourselves and that's how change happens.”
— Charles Duhigg [14:22]

By reshaping the narratives we tell ourselves, we can transform our behaviors and, consequently, our lives.

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Key Takeaways:

• Habit Loop: Understand the cue, routine, and reward to dissect and modify habits.
• Small Wins: Start with manageable changes to build momentum and confidence.
• Keystone Habits: Identify and cultivate powerful habits that trigger broader positive changes.
• Consistency: Repetition solidifies habits, making them automatic over time.
• Self-Reflection: Recognize the true rewards sought by habits to effectively replace them with healthier alternatives.

Notable Quotes:

• “You can't extinguish a bad habit because those neural pathways stay in play.” — Charles Duhigg [00:57]
• “Every habit that exists in our life has a reward, whether we're aware of it or not.” — Charles Duhigg [02:05]
• “The reward for me was this social experience. The cookie was an excuse.” — Charles Duhigg [04:37]
• “Change happens. We find something that's unexpected, that makes it easier for us to change. We find a reward that we didn't anticipate.” — Charles Duhigg [07:15]
• “Exercise is a great example... It changes other patterns, like eating patterns and spending patterns.” — Charles Duhigg [12:36]
• “With consistent cues and rewards, each day it will get a little bit easier.” — Charles Duhigg [18:03]
• “Stories are so powerful. We start to tell ourselves a story about ourselves and that's how change happens.” — Charles Duhigg [14:22]

Listeners are encouraged to experiment with identifying their own habit loops, leveraging small wins, and establishing keystone habits to foster lasting and meaningful change in their lives.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

To get you ready for the weekend.

[A]

Today's clip is from episode 436 of the podcast with Charles Duhigg, author of the international bestseller the Power of Habit. We can all make short term changes, but so many of us struggle to make our new desired behaviors. Last in this clip we discuss the science of small wins, the power of momentum, and the importance of keystone habits. You can't extinguish a bad habit because those neural pathways stay in play. That's really, really interesting. Yeah, let's use sugar or chocolate. Let's stay on those because I think they're so common, particularly in my world. Yeah, you feel a bit low. You get your favorite chocolate bar, you get a big reward, don't you? You feel high, you feel good, you've self soothed, right? So that's the reward. It's quite tricky to change that though, isn't it? Because once you've locked that in, it's quite hard to change it.

[C]

So what's interesting there is you're craving the self soothing, right? Once we do the experiments, we figure out what I'm actually craving, what's the reward that my brain wants. So and for anyone, you know this, but for anyone who's listening, who hasn't been exposed to, to some of these ideas, one of the things that we've learned is that every habit has three components. There's a cue which is like a trigger for this automatic behavior and then the behavior itself and then a reward. Every habit that exists in our life has a reward, whether we're aware of it or not. And once we know that it's self soothing as opposed to the taste of chocolate or the buzz that chocolate gives me, then at that point it's a question of what else also delivers self soothing. So you I mentioned something before. Calling a friend, calling a friend. Oftentimes is one of the greatest sources of self soothing. And so it's worth at that moment saying, instead of picking up the chocolate bar, I'm going to self soothe. Cause I know that I'm craving that right now. By calling a friend now, it might be for someone else that actually the taste of the chocolate is what they really, really enjoy. In which case we should experiment and they should have a piece of apple. Right. That's also sweet to see and healthier to see if that satisfies the craving that they're feeling. There's actually some experiments done where they gave people Splenda and they told them just to rub it on their tongue. And they found that people who crave taste sensations, sugary taste sensations, this will basically satisfy that craving.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And so the thing is to figure out what is actually driving the behavior for me. When I was writing Power of Habit, I had this bad habit where every afternoon I'd go a cookie in the cafeteria of the New York Times where I worked at the time. And I couldn't figure out why. And I talked to these researchers and they said, well, let's look for the cue, right? Tell me about when this happens. And I was like, oh, it's usually between 3:15 and 3:45. And they were like, sounds like a time of day is probably your cue. And then we know the behavior. You go up to the 14th floor, you buy a cookie, you eat the cookie and what happens then? And I said, well, usually I'll go over and I'll, you know, I see some friends and I'll sit down and I'll kind of gossip with them for a little bit and I'll eat the cookie. And they said, okay, the reward might be the cookie, it might be sugar, it might be the just taking a break from work, but it might also be those friends. So next time you do this at 3:45, whenever you feel the urge, stand up, look for someone to go gossip with without going up to the cafeteria, go gossip with them for 15 minutes and then come back to your desk and see if you're still craving that cookie. And the answer was no.

[A]

No.

[C]

The reward for me was this social experience. The cookie was an excuse.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. I love that example so much because I honestly believe, I'm not saying this is easy, but I think we are making these things often a lot harder than they need to be. We always think it's the chocolate. Well, what if it isn't? What if it's something else you're getting as you say that the social connection. What if it's the act of going to a cafe, interacting with the person and saying, hi, maybe there's someone you like in the cafe who actually, you know what? Yeah. You tell yourself a story, you're going there for the crisps or the chocolate. But maybe it's just cause you're a bit bored at your desk and you like the social interaction.

[C]

Or maybe it's just you need a break from work, right? The 3:45 comes along and you're feeling a little bit low. So like maybe taking a walk around the block does the same thing. And again, this is why experiments are so important, is because if you come up with a list of potential rewards that are alternatives and you experiment with them, you're gonna figure out what's actually driving your behavior. When we're in the grip of a habit, our brain actually powers down, right? This is why habits exist, is because every animal on earth has a part of their brain known as the basal ganglia that exists essentially to make habits. And it's because if you don't have habits, you have to decide every time you pass an apple or a rock which one you ought to eat, right? You have to think about how you walk. So our brain developed this system where when we're in the grip of a habit, we can make a behavior automatic without having to think about it the entire time. Which means we can think about other things. We can dream up how to build fire or forts or video games. But when our brain turns off in the grip of a habit, we tend to stop paying attention to the cues and the rewards. Right? We don't notice, oh, I want ice cream right now because I'm stressed. Some part of us knows, but it's very easy to ignore that voice. And when you pull it into the forefront of your brain, when you make yourself start thinking about it again, and someone says, oh, my cue is stress, I usually turn to sugar. Sugar actually does not solve this problem. For me, it's a crutch. But there's another behavior that would be healthier and provide the same reward. Then all of a sudden, change becomes so much easier. And it doesn't mean that change is easy, but it means change is easier now. So this is for changing behaviors. The other question often is, how do we create a new habit? And in that case, it's very similar, but a little bit different in that we need to choose a cue, right? So for me, it was running. I was never athletic before I started writing the Power of Habit. And I really wanted to get in better shape. And so my goal was I was gonna run a half marathon.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So I needed to choose a cue. So what I would do is I'd put my running shoes next to my bed so I saw them as soon as I woke up, and that became a cue for me. And I would run before work.

[A]

So that's a visual cue.

[C]

I was using a visual cue. Also time of day, also, I would lay out my clothes, so it was very easy to get into my running clothes.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And it's good to have more than one cue. One of them's really gonna be the powerful one, but you don't know ahead of time what it might be.

[A]

Oh, so you're. I like that. So you're peppering in a few cues to see, one of these is gonna stick.

[C]

One of these is gonna stick. One of these is gonna stick. And it turns out it was the shoes. Like, if. When I'm traveling, if I put my shoes next. My running shoes next to my bed, that gets me just. That gets me going. And then I needed to choose a reward for myself. So instead, I didn't run every day. Instead, I only ran on days when my wife was gonna bring the kids to school that day. So that I knew that when I got home from the run, I could take a nice long shower, I could have a nice smoothie with breakfast.

[A]

So did you intentionally think about the shower and smoothie as rewards?

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

So it wasn't just, oh, I'm sweaty after the run, I need to shower. It's like, I'm gonna be sweaty, and I'm gonna really enjoy that shower.

[C]

That's I'm gonna take. I'm gonna give myself an extra three minutes. Like, normally, I'd rush through the shower. I'm gonna let myself enjoy the shower.

[A]

And this really makes a difference, doesn't it?

[C]

It makes a huge difference. Cause if we decide something is rewarding, it becomes more rewarding.

[A]

You can think of stress a little bit like this, can't you? It's how we perceive things that often determine whether they're stressful or not. If we perceive it as stressful, it is. If we don't, a lot of the time, it ain't.

[C]

No, that's exactly. And if you think about it, you and I and our children, they were not born thinking that getting an A on a report card is something they should feel good about. Right. They only feel good about it because we've told them, you should feel really good about this. We constantly tell ourselves what we should find Rewarding. And when we grab ahold of that and we take the power for ourself. Now here's the one other thing with starting a new habit. So the first day that I woke up, I saw my shoes next to my bed. Never run before I put on my clothes. I walked outside and I walked for one block and I came back, and then I took the nice long shower. And then the next day I walked like two blocks. And after a while you get to this point where you're like, okay, I'm walking a couple blocks. I might as well, like jog a couple of blocks and I might as well run, you know, like half a mile. There's this thing known as the science of small wins. And oftentimes the way that we change is nonlinear, right? We find something that's unexpected, that makes it easier for us to change. We find a reward that we didn't anticipate. It's these little experiments. And when we see change as a series of shifts and it's okay for those shifts to be small, then what we're doing is we're freeing ourself to learn from ourself to. To learn from our patterns. And so that's how I ended up running a half marathon. And then a marathon was literally just by taking it as these small, little incremental improvements.

[A]

Well, first of all, congratulations.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

Wonderful achievements. I love this idea about small wins. Yeah, it's really interesting. I have found through years of clinical practice that the best way to help a patient turn a new behavior into a long term habit is to start small. I'd just seen it through trial and error. I thought when they make it really big, it kind of happens for two or three weeks and then it falls off. Whereas when I start small, and once I honestly made a trade with a patient, I say a trade, an agreement that she would meditate for one minute a day. And that one minute became five, it became 10, it became 15 over a course of four to six weeks. Cause initially she was, I don't have time. I said, okay, do you have 10 minutes? No. So do you have five minutes? Well, no. Do you have one minute? Yeah, yeah, I've got one minute. I said, all right. Okay, let's start there. And it was only when I met Professor B.J. fogg and he shared with me some of the science on small wins. And we had this awesome aha moment where we both figured out that he'd come to that conclusion from the clinical research. I came to that conclusion from real life clinical practice. And trying to figure out what works. But these small changes, when done consistently, they help to build momentum.

[C]

That's exactly right.

[A]

And so I wonder, from your perspective, you know, what is momentum? Is there any science behind momentum? Because it feels to be this really powerful, energetic force that if we can harness, kind of moves us in the right direction.

[C]

I. And here's how I think about it. I think of it as we are convincing ourself to believe in another version of ourself. So there's this idea known as keystone habits, that some habits are more powerful than others, because when we build a new habit, it triggers a bunch of other changes in our life. For some people, exercise is a great example, right? And probably everyone who's listening has had this experience. You exercise in the morning, and for some reason, you also eat healthier that day, right? Like, it's easier to, like, eat a salad rather than the hamburger when you walk into the cafeteria. We also know that when you exercise, other things happen. You procrastinate less. You tend to use your credit cards less often on the day that you exercise.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

We're not aware of that. But I think what's happening is that for many people, exercise is a keystone habit. It changes other patterns, like eating patterns and spending patterns. Because even if I think of myself as someone who's disciplined, there's a part of my brain that isn't listening to what I tell myself until I prove it to myself. And so I might know that meditation is great. I might say, like, of course, I've read all the studies. Meditation is so good. I should definitely do that. But until I prove to myself that I can meditate and that there is some reward that it's giving me something, my brain basically thinks I'm a liar, right? It's very skeptical until I prove it. And this is what keystone habits do. They change how we see ourself. We start thinking, I'm the kind of person who. Who runs in the morning. And the kind of person who runs in the morning, they eat a salad for lunch, right? They don't pull out their credit card for anything. They make wiser decisions. I'm the kind of person who meditates in the morning. And that kind of person, that's someone who can find five or 10 minutes, right? They're mindful.

[A]

What's one of your keystone habits?

[C]

Exercise. Exercise is a big one for me. And what's interesting is for people who were not athletes, the reason why exercise is so powerful as a keystone habit for some people is because it. If you weren't an athlete and you start running or you start exercising, it forces you to think of yourself as a new kind of person. It forces you to see yourself in a new light. Now for people who were athletes as kids and then they take some time away and then they start running again. Oftentimes exercise is less of a keystone habit for them because it just conforms to their mental image of themselves. But for me, exercise is a huge part of it. Going to bed. I'm someone who used to stay up till midnight, you know, every. And like my wife.

[A]

You're a writer.

[C]

Hey, exactly, exactly.

[A]

That's what writers do.

[C]

Right. I'm supposed to. And my wife goes to bed at like 9 or 9:15. And so. And so I go to bed at 9:30 with her. And that's a keystone habit for me. Like it makes me feel like I am in control of my. I am making good choices. I'm setting up the next day for success by going to bed early. And again, it's the story that we tell ourselves. Right. Stories are so powerful. We start to tell ourselves a story about ourselves and that's how change happens.

[A]

Let's say someone has just heard that and is thinking about a keystone habit for themselves. And thinking. Cause I would agree. I think it's an excellent thing to pay attention to, which is that one habit that when you do it automatically means that these next five things are gonna be better.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Always been thinking about that with my patients. It's trying to figure out, you could tell them 10 different things, but what's the one big one? That when they get that right, those other things are going to happen automatically.

[C]

All on their own.

[A]

For me, it is my morning routine. Right. When I do it, even if it's a cut down, 10, 15 minute version of it, I'm basically showing myself. Yeah. You know what? It doesn't matter how busy the world is or how much stuff you have to do with the kids or for your mom or your wife. You know what? I still made time for myself.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm worth it.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Right. I can rely on me. I can trust myself to say I'm gonna do it and follow through.

[C]

Oh, that's so wonderful. That is such a wonderful way of putting that reward and that I'm sure that makes it more rewarding.

[A]

I think it does. And I always. I'm keen to emphasize that I've been working on this for many years now because I don't want anyone to listen to this conversation and then suddenly go, wow, I need to try and do Dr. Chachi's 45 minute routine. Straight away it's like, hey, I was rubbish for a few years. I'd do it for a bit, I'd fall off. I just realized more and more that, oh, when I do it, I'm a better human in every aspect of my life. I'm a more patient husband, I'm more present with my kids, I'm calmer, I'm more productive. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. For me, that's one of my keystone habits. But a lot of people find this stuff uncomfortable, right? So I wonder, Charles, what you would say to someone who goes, okay, I know what I want to do. Am I going to find it hard forever or is it just going to be hard for a few weeks? At some point will it no longer feel hard and it will become automatic? How would you help them think about that?

[C]

So I'd say two things. Number one is trying to figure out what your keystone habit ought to be. One way that you can do that is ask yourself, what kind of change seems irrationally frightening to me? Right? Like, before I became a runner, when I thought of running, it was a little like, I was like, I'm gonna look terrible in those, like spandex, right? Like, I look so goofy when I'm running. Like, so it was irrationally scary. That's a sign that this kind of change will be meaningful to you. It's gonna change how you see yourself. Then the second part of your question, which is, will it be hard forever? The wonderful thing is again, and back to the basal ganglia. There's a part of our brain that literally exists to make that pattern easier and easier and easier. So is it gonna be really easy on day three? No, but it's gonna be easier than it was on day one. And by the time you hit day 21 or you hit day 30 or day 45, at some point it's gonna become a habit. You won't even think about it anymore. You'll just do it automatically. You'll put on your lace up your shoes, go out for a run, and you'll be looking forward to the podcast that you're list. And it won't even occur to you to think about, like, oh, this is hard.

[A]

It's like brushing teeth, right?

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Brushing teeth was not a habit when you were three or four or even five years old. I mean, my kids are a bit older now. Sometimes I'm not even convinced it's a habit yet. But I think, I hope for most people listening, it is now a habit, right? So at some point it does change.

[C]

And like I get out of the shower now and even if my teeth are clean, I have to brush my teeth. I don't feel clean unless I have that minty feeling in my mouth. You're exactly right. Our brains exist to create as many habits as it possibly can. It wants to conserve all the cognitive energy it can by making these behaviors automatic. If you have consistent cues and rewards, if you're paying attention to those cues and rewards, then each day it will get a little bit easier. Almost imperceptibly easier. But on day two it'll be easier than day one. And on day 21 it's gonna be easier than it was on day two. And at some point your brain takes over and it just becomes a habit.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Go back and listen to the original full conversation with my guest. If you enjoyed this episode, I think you will really enjoy my bite sized Friday email. It's called the Friday five and each week I share things that I do not share on social media. It contains five short doses of positivity.

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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