← Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee
Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee
BITESIZE | How To Stay Calm, Connected And In Control During Difficult Conversations | Jefferson Fisher #627
00:23:46
Most of us spend our lives in conversation – yet very few of us are ever taught how to communicate well. Whether it’s with our partners, colleagues, family or friends, we often assume that being heard is the same as being understood. But true communication isn’t just about the words we use – it’s about the tone, timing and energy behind them.
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- [00:01]
A
Today's Bite Size episode is sponsored by Heights. As I get older, I realize that staying healthy isn't just about living longer. It's about having the energy to really live those years as myself, to be present for my kids, my work and for the people who matter most. Recently I started taking Thrive, a new daily longevity supplement from Heights, a British company who who focus on using science to make products that work. Thrive is designed to support healthy aging at a cellular level, helping you feel clearer, more energized and more resilient as the years go by. It combines four clinically studied ingredients at research backed doses which together supports energy production, cellular defense and long term resilience all in one simple daily capsule. It's one of the best products I have come across in this space. If want to start supporting your future self, HEIGHT is giving my listeners an exclusive 20% off your first order of Thrive. Just go to height.comlivemore and use the code LIVEMORE to get started. Welcome to Feel Better Live More Bite Size, your weekly dose of positivity and optimism to get you ready for the weekend. Today's clip is from episode 571 with Jefferson Fisher, trial lawyer, public speaker and author of the Next Conversation. Argue Less, Talk More. Jefferson believes that better communication can transform not only our relationships, but our health and happiness as well. And in this clip he shares the three essential principles that to better communication and how to shift from reaction to reflection by making your first words your breath. In your view, what are some of the common things that get in the way of people communicating effectively?
- [02:12]
B
Lots. The number one would be they assume that what is said is what was received in that instance. So if I were to tell you something and we felt this in relationships, we felt this at work. You send a message and they hear and they feel something very different. Maybe in an email you wrote something and all of a sudden they go, why are you mad at me? You go, I'm not mad. Or you're talking and somebody says why are you yelling? You go I'm not yelling or I'm not upset. And so we feel these instances where what we thought we said is not as what is received on the other end. So there's that kind of miscommunication. Now there's also just the difficultness of being open and receptive in the moment. We don't want to listen, so we're the ones not wanting to receive anything. We're the ones that are getting defensive. And on top of that, we often feel that conversation, especially disagreements, instantly become A competition where we want to win, we want to dominate, we want to compete. And those are recipes for a bad conversation. Real quick.
- [03:19]
A
Yeah. You've got great information to share, but it's not just what you're sharing, it's how you're sharing it. There's a calmness, there's a friendliness. And I think going back to what you said about what are the obstacles to good communication, basically, what you're hearing is the tip of the iceberg. There's something going on beneath that.
- [03:42]
B
Yes. The person you see is often not the person you're talking to, meaning I'm talking to you right here. But I don't know the struggles you're having. I don't know if you had a difficult time this morning with the wife or the kids or anybody. And that's the same for anybody we meet. And how we talk to them in that moment, how we hear them in that moment often is a reflection of a lot of other influences. Rather than just saying, how dare they say that to me? Without ever questioning, why would they say that? Where is this coming from? There's always a surface and a depth to anybody.
- [04:20]
A
Yeah. Your book has these three core principles of how we can communicate better and have better conversations. Right. Say it with control, Say it with confidence, and say it to connect.
- [04:33]
B
That's right.
- [04:34]
A
Can you go through those three things step by step and help us understand what exactly they mean and also how we can start to apply them when we're having conversations?
- [04:46]
B
Rule one is say it with control. And what that is, in a nutshell, is rather than trying to control the other person, when you're having the difficult conversation, which is typically the default, that's our gut urge, is to control you. Where you actually find success is controlling yourself. So instead of trying to control them, what I want you to do is control yourself. That's going to begin always a better conversation. Two is saying it with confidence, meaning how to find your assertive voice. People often feel like confidence is something they need to have before the conversation. They're saying, well, I'm kind of working up the confidence to say this. That's wrong. Confidence is not what you have before the conversation. Confidence is the outcome. It's a feeling. It's the same thing if I said, hey, look, I need you to be sad right now, sad as you've ever been with me right now, there wouldn't be anything to trigger that, to force that. Or if I said, I need you to be mad right now, there's nothing to do that but if I were to hit you in the shoulder out of nowhere, you might be. Now you can be mad. Why? Because it came from something. How you create the confidence is using your assertive voice. So I teach confidence is as assertive does. 3. Rule 3 is you say it to connect. Connection is two components. There's understanding and acknowledgement. I can understand you if you say something, but if I don't acknowledge you, you're not going to feel connected to me at the same time, if I can acknowledge you but I don't really understand it, I'm not going to connect with you. And so you have to have these two components of understanding and creating connection in conversation by saying what you mean and meaning what you say.
- [06:27]
A
Yeah. As you were describing, control there for me, looking at it a different way, it was internal v. External. Right. So in general in life we have limited control on externalities. We've got a lot more control on what's going on internally. And therefore if we apply that to what you just said, you know, if you're trying to control somebody else or manipulate what they say, you know, that is actually outside your control. Now you may argue that if you can communicate well and calmly and in a grounded fashion, you are actually influencing what they say, which is very clear from your work. But I love the idea that it's about gaining control over ourselves because I guess another way of looking at it, or I'd love your perspective on this is it's clear to me that we see the world through the state of our nervous system, right? So if we're stressed, we're gonna interpret emails a certain way, right? So people, for example, if they've had a well rested weekend, they can read an email on Monday morning and be pretty calm when they read it. They could read that same email on a Friday afternoon after a busy week at work and interpret the email completely differently. The email hasn't changed. What's changed is the state of their nervous system. And, and I kind of feel that applies to communication whereby you are gonna communicate and you do write about this, you're gonna communicate in a way that reflects the state of your nervous system. So if you're busy, stressed, tired, that unless you have a high degree of self awareness, it's gonna come out through your voice. Right? So that thing about control is like this is about self awareness and controlling ourselves, Right?
- [08:21]
B
Right. It is this sense of anytime we have disagreement, have that friction, the dissonance in a conversation, we quickly return to this state of competition we want to win and we See it as a threat. Any little opinion that is different from our own, our body likes to treat it as a threat. We go, no, no, no, no, that's not. They need to agree with me. Because if not, then it doesn't feel comfortable. If not, then it feels like they're trying to undermine me. They're saying, I'm wrong, I don't like to be wrong, I'm not wrong. And we start to try and control that narrative. No, no, no. I need to say something so compelling that you're going to have to agree with me or I'm going to say something that is so snappy, so clapback, so powerful that you're going to go, oh my gosh, you're so right. How could I ever imagine any other opinion than the one that you have? And so we try and force that. That's where we go wrong is we try and force and control that conversation. Instead. When you start to control yourself, you also sound like you're in control. And those who sound like they're in control are the ones that are listened to and the ones that lead. These are the ones that have the calm energy that people go, I don't know what they have, but I like it. You know what? That sounds more reasonable. That's what's wild to me is you say what sounds reasonable, it's typically the person who just sounds with their voice more reasonable versus somebody who. The words matter far less to me than the way that you sound and the way that you make people feel. That's the heart of the communication.
- [10:04]
A
Yeah. Now, what you just said was super powerful. Right. So I imagine some people are going to hear that and be thinking about the last disagreement they had with their partner or their spouse. Right. That's often where people go to all their parents, whatever it might be. Right. And what I love about how you teach this in this chapter is you talk about this three step process. Right. Your first word is your breath, your first thought is a quick scan, and your first conversation is a small talk.
- [10:43]
B
Yeah.
- [10:43]
A
Can we focus a little bit on breathing through the lens of conflicts and communication and the importance of the breath when we're communicating?
- [10:53]
B
Yeah. Anybody who's listening and loves your podcast, which you have an amazing podcast by the way, is that the breath, they're familiar with that they know the benefits of it. What I'm going to encourage them to do is understand the benefits of your actual conversation, how you can use the breath in your communication to lead to better outcomes. What happens in dissonance disagreements is we tend to hold our breath. In fact, I would even be willing to say that a lot of people hold their breath more than they think. They might be very stressed out, maybe they're overwhelmed at work, they're scrolling through emails, listening to it. You might be listening to us right now while you're driving and you're worried about your workday and you're holding your breath. Without you thinking about it, what happens, it puts you in a low grade state of anxiety. You might all of a sudden go, you realize, oh, I'm not breathing. And your body's telling you that you're feeling like you're drowning in some sense because in a way you are kind of suffocating yourself. Well, breath and communication slows things down. If you want to control the moment, if you want to sound like you have more control and you want to have more better control over the outcome and the influence of it, let your breath be the first word that you say, meaning wherever your first word would be in your response. Let's say you said something to me that I didn't like. Or really, it could be anything, but something that's going to require actual thought. Something above just the casual, how's it going, what's going on? We often just feel like I have to have that rapid response. I need to be right there, I need to step on the end of your sentence and I need to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Where the actual power is, is where the first word would be. I put a breath in its place. Why? Because it gives us time. When you slow things down, it controls the moment more. Which one sounds like somebody who's. Someone who you want to listen to and follow. Somebody who says, reacts and goes, look, I already told you I'm not going to do that. I already told you I'm not going to do that. Same words.
- [13:07]
A
Yeah.
- [13:07]
B
Which one sounds like somebody you don't want to mess with? Which is one. Somebody who sounds like, you know what, I could follow that guy or girl, I could follow this person. This is somebody who sounds balanced, grounded in control.
- [13:19]
A
Yeah, there's a gravitas.
- [13:21]
B
Absolutely.
- [13:21]
A
Yeah.
- [13:22]
B
The first voice sounds like I'm grasping for control, I need it, give it to me. I'm not in control, I need it. The other person sounds like, no, no, no, no, I've never lost it. I'm right here.
- [13:32]
A
This also speaks to non verbal communication, doesn't it? Because it's. What is the energy that I'm giving off as I'm having this conversation? Because people respond to Energy, don't they? They respond to stress like people. You know, humans are a social species. We can mirror what's going on around us. Our nervous systems kind of respond to the nervous system's of the people around us. And so when you are able to, I guess, master your nervous system, maybe master's too strong a term. I mean, if you can amazing, at least gain some degree of control over it, your communication is automatically going to get better.
- [14:17]
B
Yes, because you never get emotionally flooded. I mean, we've had these arguments with people in our life, typically the ones we love most, where they become shouting matches and to where you're shouting and you don't even really know what you're saying. At some point, it doesn't matter if it's logical or not. It doesn't matter if it makes sense. You just know you're reacting because there is a threat. You either want to. I mean that's why our fists clench, because your body's ready to swing. You may not throw a punch, but you're going to say a hurtful word. You want it to cut, you want that word to sting. Same thing. Or people who want to. If you've been on the phone and somebody just hangs up while you're talking or they instantly want to leave the room, that's the flight. You find that in every conversation that you have. And the person that controls their nervous system, which to me is the number one way to do that in conversation, is your breath. Because it slows things down, it keeps the analytical side engaged. You know this. And a lot of your listeners of course know this. It is something that can improve their conversation because it never sounds like you're lost. It never sounds like you're unsure of yourself or that you're grasping or desperate, that you've lost your sense of control.
- [15:33]
A
When you were talking about maybe you're in a difficult conversation before you start reacting and just blurting out words, you're saying that first word is your breath. Okay, so you're. What is that an inhale?
- [15:44]
B
Yeah, so it's. You would know this as a physiological sigh. It's where it's a double inhalation where it's about three seconds into your nose, two seconds in again at the top and then all out through your nose again. Now we can do that in a sense of very exaggerated. I'm not talking about the sigh of what my 5 year old would do of like, ugh, like not that type of breath. But you want to be able to use it and you can do it. Silently, anytime, right before you say something that you need a catch a moment, or if somebody's saying something that's you can tell you don't like and you're getting worked up. You ever heard somebody, like, making an opinion or saying something you don't like? And what happens? Our bodies go, like, everything. We don't like it. We kind of start to seize up. We take a big breath. We're like, okay, I gotta get ready, because why? We're about ready to unleash all of our words. And so when you hold your breath, that's why your breath has really nowhere to go except to yell. Often it decreases communication. It's the same way of. You know, how at least if you're trying to find directions and you're trying to find a house and you have blaring music, you have to, like, turn down the music so you can, like, let me turn on this music so I can see. It's kind of that same mentality of when somebody's yelling, you can't really listen.
- [17:05]
A
Yeah. It's this whole. We see the world through the state of our nervous system. Right. That person said that thing that you didn't like. And if you start to react and hold your breath, which may be understandable.
- [17:16]
B
Yes.
- [17:17]
A
Right. You're changing the state of your nervous system. So everything is coming inward. Your focus is coming inward. You are getting prepared to fight. So, of course, the next words you say are gonna come out with a certain energy. So I love that sort of idea that you make it and, you know, the whole section in that chat. So you do sort of walk people through how you can practice this breath and get to the point whereby you're doing it naturally in conversation where the person doesn't even know that you're doing it.
- [17:47]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm happy to do it right now if you want to.
- [17:49]
A
Okay. All right.
- [17:50]
B
So if you're listening right now, let's practice this. I call this a conversational breath. And it's a breath that you can use. And nobody's really going to know that you're doing it. There's nothing special. It's just the choice to be intentional with your breath. And let's do it together. So it's all going to be through your nose, and it's going to be a double inhale, meaning we're going to inhale twice. Ready? So if you're listening, we're going to go three seconds in through your nose, two more at the top, and then all out through your nose. Now just Listening to us right now, your shoulders should have dropped just a little bit. You're going to feel just a little bit calmer. That's your go to when somebody is saying something you don't like or you're about to respond. So right now, I want you, Ranga, to continue to do the conversational breath and I'm going to continue to say some things to you. So, Ranga, Yes. I understand you have a podcast and. Yeah, it's a health podcast. In fact, it's the number one health podcast in the world. World. But you know what? I don't know if you're doing as well as you need to. I mean, you could be these lights, have you seen these cameras? I don't know if I even really like these microphones now. See, as you're talking to me right now, I didn't even realize that you're breathing any differently than anybody else. And so anytime somebody's saying something that's agitating to you in that sense, it's allowing you to see the depth. Right. It's allowing you to see the cause rather than getting worked up and holding your breath to fight the symptoms.
- [19:08]
A
Yeah. It's amazing because you're. You're slowing everything down. Right. So, you know, using that analogy, being in the car again. Yeah. If your car is going fast down the street, you're not going to be able to take everything in. Right. Because everything's going back quickly. You slow down your car and go down the street, you can suddenly see everything clearly. I saw that number. I saw that number. You know, that's what going, There's a cat coming, whatever it might be. Right. So when we slow everything down, our perspective is different. We see more clearly. So clearly in a conversation.
- [19:41]
B
Yes.
- [19:42]
A
Especially a conversation that perhaps isn't going the way that you want it to.
- [19:45]
B
Right.
- [19:46]
A
If you're able to slow things down.
- [19:48]
B
Yes.
- [19:49]
A
You're going to be more present. You're going to, you know, you're going to have that separation between the stimulus, the words you don't like, and the response you're about to give.
- [19:59]
B
Exactly. Time has a way of sifting out priority. We all know we've had these moments and conversations that feel really intense with that friend at the cafe the next day. You know what? That conversation really didn't matter all that much. Or a week goes by and you go, why did I ever react that way?
- [20:19]
A
But in the moment, you felt that it did.
- [20:21]
B
In the moment, it was everything. And then. Or you get that email, you read that email at work. And you want to. It gets you all worked up and you're ready to send that nasty response back, but something happens and you go, you know what? I'm just going to put this down. You read it again the next day. That's not even worth my response.
- [20:39]
A
Exactly. That's the power of silence.
- [20:42]
B
Absolutely. Yes. I feel like we rush all the time. I mean, I know I rush my son sometimes. I'm like, all right, come on, get your shoes on. Come on, get your shoes on. We got to go to what? A kid's birthday party that you don't have to be on time for. I mean, it's not the end of the world. Why do we always feel like we have to rush, rush, rush? There is something so beautiful about having a conversation with your best friend that has no time constraints, that has no rush. And you can say something, and just like you said, you're able to just sit with it, land, let their words sit, and just appreciate the moment that you're able to connect with someone. And beautiful, wonderful things happen when you simply slow down the conversation. And that's exactly if you want to have better conversation. You slow it down. If you want to deal with difficult conversation. If you're really worried about a conversation you're about to have, slow it down. I promise you, you're going to end up having a better outcome.
- [21:48]
A
I really love that idea that it's about that next conversation. You know, just change the next conversation. Don't worry about the one next week or next month. Just focus on the next conversation.
- [22:00]
B
I don't want you to hear this episode and go, I guess they got it all together and I don't. We're always figuring out better ways to improve our life. There's one little quick trick that I'll give you, and it's because this is probably one of the most popular. When you feel like you have to disagree with somebody and you're a little hesitant on it and you don't really feel you need to feel like you tell them, hope you're well, or you feel like you need to be a little soft about it. What I would encourage you to say is, instead of, I disagree, change it to, I see things differently. I see things differently. Rangan, you've already used this in our conversation today, and I think that's. You already did without even knowing you're doing it. That's how good you are. When you say, I see things differently, you're using words of perspective. So words like, look, I look at it a different way. I take another approach. I see things differently. People won't get defensive and it's a great way to start to hear the power of your own voice. If you want a better world, it begins with a better conversation.
- [23:04]
A
Yeah, Hope you enjoyed that bite sized clip. Do spread the love by sharing this episode with your friends and family. And if you want more, why not go back and listen to the original full conversation with my guest. If you enjoyed this episode, I think you will really enjoy my Bite Sized Friday email. It's called the Friday Friday five and each week I share things that I do not share on social media. It contains five short doses of positivity, articles or books that I'm reading, quotes that I'm thinking about, exciting research I've come across, and so much more. I really think you're going to love it. The goal is for it to be a small yet powerful dose of feel good. To get you ready for the weekend, you can sign up for it free of charge@drchattery.com Friday 5. Hope you have a wonderful weekend. Make sure you have pressed subscribe and I'll be back next week with my long form conversation on Wednesday and the latest episode of Bite Science next Friday.