B (4:41)

You mentioned a lot of things there that I think we all want. Happiness, motivation, focus, productivity, thinking better. You know, these are things that no matter who we are, we're all seeking them in our lives. Now, you found that when you do this as part of your morning routine, you almost set your body and brain up for the day with those emotions and feelings that you want. I think that's really, really powerful. Can you rewind to when you didn't do this first thing in the morning? You know what? How did your day go then compared to how does your day go now? And do you also remember, was there a specific bit of research that when you did it or read it, you thought, wait a minute, I've got to change something?

A (5:33)

Yes, yes, to both. Okay, so here's how it goes. When you don't do that movement, don't put that movement in your day. And this was a lived experience. I was going through a really, really stressful part of my career, which is trying to get tenure at an American university. They give you six years, and they say, okay, you have six years to make your name, and if you don't do it, we're going to fire you. And if you are going to do it, then we will embrace you for the rest of your career and we can't fire you. So no big deal. And so you have six years to do this. And so what did I do? My wonderful strategy was to only work. I'm just going to work. I'm going to just go into the lab and I'm going to relinquish my, my social life and I'm just going to work and I'm going to eat all the wonderful takeout in New York City because that's so fast and efficient and it's delicious with lots of calories. And so I'm going to do that too. And so I, I got stuff done, definitely, but I had no social life. I found myself with much more weight than, than I, I was used to because I wasn't moving at all. And mainly I was unhappy. I was just unhappy. I was doing, I was working really hard, but very, very unhappy. And my wake up call came when I gave myself a vacation because I had no friends, because I had no social life. I went by myself. I went on a river rafting trip to Peru. So I was trying to get as far away from New York City as I could. So I went by myself on one of these group river rafting trips. And it was so much fun, so beautiful walking around Inca ruins. But I realized I was the weakest one on this whole trip. There were 65 year old triathletes that were so strong and there were 16 year olds that came with their father that were also stronger than me. And so I came back saying, okay, I got a little bit of outdoors. I felt so good after this, I need to go to the gym and get a little bit more movement in my life. And it was really that, that was my realization when I started going to the gym. And I remember the very first class I took was a hip hop dance class. Oh my God, I'm really bad at hip hop dancing. But it was very, very, it really pushed my limits. And I remember coming out of there going, oh my God, I hope nobody took any pictures or anything but really got my aerobic activity up. And I still felt good. Even though I felt like a terrible hip hop dancer, I still felt great. And that is what made me go back to the literature When I started feeling so much better after this, so much better than a month before when I was only working 100% of the time. That's when I went back and looked at all of the research showing that movement changes your mood, movement, regular movement can be as effective as some of the Most commonly used antidepressants. And while I wasn't depressed, I wasn't happy. I was not a happy person in my life. And I felt myself shifting out of that, first with this trip to Peru, but then with that regular bringing movement into my life. So it was kind of a self realization, kind of backed up by the neuroscience that I was able to go back and research because I happen to be a neuroscientist.

B (9:08)

Yeah. I mean, that's so interesting. That hip hop dance class sounds like a lot of fun. Do you still do that at the moment?

A (9:16)

I do. I. Well, during the pandemic, I switched to video workouts at home. So now I do it, do it at home. And I don't know, it's not as fun to do hip hop dance on video. So occasionally I'll go out and take a class now. But yeah, I got much better at dance after that very first. Not, not so much hip hop. That's still not my. My forte. But, you know, it's about playing and. And for me, it was about discovering. Turns out I. I love kickboxing. And when I say that, you know, people go, oh, you know, don't get Wendy mad. But it's about the rhythm and the power moves that you're doing in kickboxing that really I love.

B (9:57)

Yeah. What's interesting for me is that you went on this vacation from your life and that inspired you to get moving. You start moving and you feel these kind of emotions that you have never felt before. And that then encourages you because you're a neuroscientist, to go and study. But presumably, presumably before you'd experienced that, you were probably aware, I'm guessing, that movement's kind of good for the body, it's kind of good for the mind. But, you know, I guess where I'm getting to with this is that a lot of us know things. We've read it in the media, we've heard it on podcasts, but we can know stuff, but it doesn't land in our brain. So we take action. And so it's really interesting for me that you had to. Even with all your prestigious training and your prestigious position as a professor, you had to feel it first. And that feeling, that experience is what led you to actually do more research.

A (10:59)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's easy to understand. I mean, if we ask, are all MDs peak health? Are they all exercising and eating to the best that science tells us? Clearly, with all due respect to my MD colleagues, the answer is no. And certainly the Answer is no. For neuroscientists, exercise physiologists, sometimes it takes a wake up call and I have to share. For the scientists listening today, the other wake up call that came in this was, I don't know, a year and a half in, and I'm feeling good, clearly, lots more energy. But the thing that really made me so interested that I actually shifted my research from study of memory, which is how I started my research career, to starting to explicitly study the effects of exercise is I'll always remember I was sitting in my office and I was writing a grant. And so all the scientists out there know how excruciating it is to write a grant. This is your lifeblood, right? This says whether you're going to be validated by your peers or, you know, you're not going to be able to do the science that you want. And I had this thought that came through my mind while I was writing this particular day in my office. And that thought was, gee, writing went well today. I had never had that thought ever in my entire career. It was. And then I thought, well, I'm just having a good day. I'm feeling really good. I did go to the gym that day. But no, I realized that my, my writing had gotten better. Like it was flowing better. So that's when I realized that the only thing at this point that I changed in my life was this exercise. It was a year and a half in, I had gone through no movement to regular movement. And going back to the literature, I know it helps the functions of the hippocampus, important for memory, which you need when you're writing a grant. All those details of all the papers that you have to put together in your multimillion dollar grant proposal. And focus to write, you need deep, continuous focus. I'm like, both of those things are better. That I think appears to be why my writing is getting better. So that was like that hit home your lifeblood. You're doing it better. And it seems like all these functions are coming because you're exercising. Wow, that is life changing. That was life changing moment.

B (13:40)

Yeah. It's so interesting that, you know, reflecting on what you've been saying so far, Wendy, it's fascinating to me that you were, at least from the outside, crushing life, right? You were successful, you're living in New York City, you are being made professor. You know, you're doing great research, you're teaching people, you're being invited for TED talks, you know, the sort of thing that a lot of people would regard as hey, that's what I want. You know, that's the sign of someone who's successful. Yet you've also said at the same time you were productive, you were successful, but you weren't happy. Right. That's really interesting because I think there'll be a lot of people who can resonate with that. They are doing the things that, you know, they, they think they need to do, that society has told them they need to do. And it sounds like you were, you know, you. Well, yeah, you weren't just surviving, you know, in your work, you were thriving. But in your personal life, I know from your first book, Healthy Brain, Happy Life, you've been very, very open in that book about the struggles you had with relationships and actually the fact that you never spent any time prioritizing those relationships. And it's fascinating to me that just that one change movement, which you now put into your morning routine, is having all these kind of myriad benefits.

A (15:04)

It is. And it's really interesting to analyze my own career kind of before and after this realization, particularly on the topic of creativity. So I was a very by the book scientist before this, this realization. I, I did my undergraduate, I, I went to graduate school, I got my PhD, I did a postdoc and then I got a faculty position. So that's all that's great, that is successful. And I was thrilled to be here at nyu, but always by the book. All my classes were by the book. But then. And by the way, I want to clarify, the TED talks came after the transition. I was not giving TED talks. That was part of the creativity. So then this transformation happens. I realized that I was unhappy. I ended up going to the gym because of this Peru trip. And one of the interesting things is that I think everybody's motivation, part of everybody's motivation to move more regularly, besides that bubble bath of neurochemicals that I told you about, is that one of the things that we know that exercise does is it releases a whole bunch of growth factors in the brain and that goes directly to your hippocampus, which is important for memory and literally helps new brain cells grow. So if you want shiny new brain cells in the part of your brain critical for long term memory, that is your motivation to exercise. That is my personal motivation to exercise. But it turns out that the hippocampus doesn't only help us with memory, but it helps us put information in our memories together in new ways. In other words, it's important for imagination. And if you look at my teaching and my work and my Career before and after this, what you'll see is after I started working out, what did I do? I created new courses like can exercise change your brain? Where I brought physical activity into the classroom. I literally got trained as an exercise instructor so I could make the whole class work out with me before the class. And actually that's because my department wouldn't pay for an exercise instructor. I was like, can you, can you hire an exercise instructor for me? And they're like, no, you teach the class. So I went and I got trained as an exercise instructor because I was going to the gym all the time anyway, did that, I made them that class. My very first kind of clinical study. So I tested them before and after the semester of every week, we would exercise together for an hour. And I compared them to another class that didn't exercise. I created art meets brain, where I brought in all of my new friends that I made that were artists and dancers, talked about their craft, and then we talked about the neuroscience of movement. I had a world class cellist come in and go through the process of learning a new piece. And then I talked about, again, a different version of motor learning. So all sorts of artists and I just had the time of my life. And that's when I was creating my TED Talks and kind of going outside of the classroom because I realized, oh my God, this information is so important. And while I love lecturing to my 120 students that I teach in the regular class that I teach, everybody should know about this. And so that's, that's why I wrote the first book, Healthy brain, happy life. And that's what got me the TED Talk.

B (18:47)

Yeah, it's, it's so inspiring to hear about your story. You know, I love your energy and your passion to, I guess, hammer home that, you know, this message that we've been hearing since we were kids that physical activity is important for our physical health, which I think we've all heard over and over again. Your research and certainly your first book, I think in many ways is just, it's expanding out our view of physical activity. Going now that's not just for your physical health. It makes you a better human, right? It makes you more creative, more productive, makes you happy and more motivation, helps you with memory, all these things. I think it's absolutely fantastic. One point, I just want to clarify. I know you do 30 minutes every morning, okay. And some people will hear that and go, I can't do it in the morning, Wendy. You know, I've got kids, I'm busy. I Don't think I can fit that in. So the first point there was, is the time of day important, but related to that. I know in Healthy Brain Happy Life, there's lots of talk of four minute hacks, right?

A (20:02)

Yeah.

B (20:03)

So the second part of that question is four minutes. What's so great about four minutes?

A (20:09)

Yeah, so four minutes was really chosen. So at the end of every chapter in Healthy Brain Happy Life, are different hacks that you can do focused on the topic that was in that chapter. And we chose four minutes because it was doable. And frankly, it was a doable time period. We didn't want to give you 30 minute activities because nobody would try it ever. And so all these things are fun things just to get people in the groove of meditation, in the groove of creativity, in the groove of movement. But going back to what is that minimum or optimum exercise regimen? That's the most popular question that people always ask me, really? How little movement do I really need to do to get all that good stuff that you've been talking about? And so the answer to that is simple. If you want to get that good mood. We know that significant decreases in anxiety and depression levels, not clinical anxiety and depression, just our overall anxiety levels, can come with just 10 minutes of walking. That comes from the science. That is the kind of minimum amount that has been shown to have and effect. And I love, usually I start with that because 30 minutes can be a little bit daunting and it does not have to be in the morning. That's when, when I do it, I can do it. And so the first thing to say is that anytime you can bring movement into your life is the perfect time to do it. And you don't have to run a marathon, you don't have to go to those scary classes. Walking, starting with walking, has a significant effect. Specifically, 10 minutes of walking can decrease those negative mood states and increase the positive mood states. So that's. I always like to start with that, that doable message that really anybody can bring into their day.

B (22:15)

Yeah. Now, I love that you've obviously found what works for you. You can do 30 minutes in the context of the rest of your life. So you do it right and you've experienced the benefits. One thing I've spoken about on this podcast for many years is that I do a five minute strength workout every morning, like you, seven days a week. Because the workout has been created around my coffee consumption. So as my cafeteria brews the coffee for five minutes. In those five minutes, instead of going on YouTube or Instagram or emails. I do a strength workout in my pajamas. And I always say that because the point is I've made it as easy as possible. And I wrote a book about five minute interventions, how powerful they can be. So that's why I'm so interested in this four minute number, because I think we've been conditioned, Wendy, to think that, oh, there's no point doing it if it's only four minutes or five minutes. Yet I think I keep in really good shape from a five minute strength workout seven days a week because it's so small that I can do it every day pretty much. And I like you, I'm very passionate to get the idea out there. I remember actually one day I used to work in a GP practice. Maybe this specific practice. I'm gonna guess maybe eight, nine years ago. No, it was actually longer because it was before I had kids. Right. So there was life pre kids and post kids. Right before I had kids, I still loved getting up early, but I'd go to the gym at 6:30 in the morning on the way to my GP surgery.

A (23:56)

Yeah.

B (23:57)

And my colleague asked me, how long do you do? And I said, well, I don't have much time really. I think I did, I don't know, 15 minutes weights, maybe 15 minutes cardio and then a bit of steam room. And then I'd get ready, shave, and I'd turn up to work. And she said to me, yeah, but, you know, it's not enough really, is it? You know, I never go unless I could find time for an hour. And she, for many reasons, was really struggling with various aspects of physical health and mental health. And I remember thinking, that's incredible, isn't it, that that person is not going to move because she thinks I have to do an hour or it doesn't count. But as I've just shared and as you just sheds, even little bits make a difference. So 10 minutes can change the mood of walking. Any other research to help people understand that you don't need to do that much?

A (24:48)

Yeah, I mean, that's my best go to kind of research because like your colleague, a lot of the researchers look at minimum 30 minutes of workout either for cardio health or, you know, exercise physiology or brain health. And so this is a great one. The studies that have confirmed that 10 minutes of walking can absolutely change your mood. It's consistent with the whole broad spectrum of work that says that mood change is one of the most consistent, strongest effects of physical activity. Now the hippocampal cells have been studied extensively in animal model systems. And we don't have a exact, you know, how much a day for how long do you need to have that? However, the study that I love to highlight is a correlational study done in Swedish women. It was published in 2018 and it was a 44 year follow up study. So in the 1960s, they went and looked at 300 women in Sweden and characterized them as low fit, midfit or high fit. Just what is your physiological level? Again, they were in their 40s, they did no intervention. They came back 44 years later and asked what was their status now that they're in their 80s? And it turns out that relative to the low fit women, the high fit, the women that were high fit in their 40s, 1960, they staved off dementia by an extra nine years. Nine years. And so what does that mean? Well, I immediately go to. I know that regular exercise is increasing growth factors, which is increasing the number of hippocampal brain cells. That's not curing dementia, but it's making your hippocampus, as I like to say, big and fat and fluffy. That just takes longer for any disease to come in and damage it. And what does both normal aging and dementia do? It goes in and it attacks the hippocampus, which is why in dementia that that memory problem comes in early. So let's look at those high fit women. What's happening? They're staving off dementia by nine years. Now, as I'm sure you recognize and many of our science colleagues will recognize, that's not a causal relationship because it was just a correlational study. However, it is consistent with the science, the neuroscience that we understand about what regular long term exercise can do, particularly to the hippocampus and your memory function. Again, that study to do in a direct causal way is very, very, very difficult. But those studies that continue to come out, there are many studies that are in that same direction, can suggest that regular exercise, as much as you can do for as long as you can do during your lifetime, is helping your brain. Particularly two areas that are sensitive to aging, the hippocampus we just talked about and the prefrontal cortex, stave off those debilitating effects that can come with aging.

B (28:06)

You've mentioned growth factors a few times. Yeah. I wonder if we could just dive into what exactly is going on here? Why is it or how is it that exercise is giving us these incredible benefits? You mentioned bdnf. What exactly is BDNF and what does it do in our brains? Just wanted to take a moment to tell you about my first ever UK theater tour taking place this March. So I've just finished two days rehearsing for the show with the entire tour team, the director, video tech, sound crew, tour manager and I'm even more excited for these live shows than I was when I first announced the tour. Now, if you enjoy listening to my podcast, I think you are going to love coming to this tour. Don't think of it like a book tour. Think of it as an immersive, transformative, fun evening where you will walk away with a personalized blueprint of the things you need to work on in your own life. It's not just me on a stage talking to you. There will be lots of interactive moments and a few surprises. Now I know that many of you listen to this podcast to learn things that will help you thrive, but I also know that at times it can feel hard. On this tour you are going to be in a room with other people who are interested in the same things as you are, which will feel incredibly special and give you a massive boost. These events are going to be fun, inspirational, educational and hopefully will be the springboard you need to take action. As we move out of winter and get into spring, there are 14 shows all around the UK. The two warm up dates in Wilmslow and the London Lyceum date has just sold out. So don't delay if you plan on picking up tickets. All details can be seen@doctor chatterjee.com forward/events. So get your friends together, make a night of it and I hope to see you in person in just a few weeks.

A (30:30)

So BDNF is a growth factor that we know quite a bit about. We know a lot about what it does in development. So as our brains as young babies are growing, BDNF and lots of other growth factors are basically there to help make those new connections happen. They facilitate connection or synapse formation in the brain. And then what happens when we're adults? Well, in adulthood it's also facilitating synapse new synapse formation, which is happening all the time. You learn something new, there are changes in those connections in your brain and BDNF plays a role. But in particular this so BDNF stands for brain Derived Neurotrophic Factor. All you need to know is that it's a growth factor and it is essential in the hippocampus to help brand new brain cells grow. There's only two areas in the human brain where brand new brain cells grow in adulthood Just two. They're not growing all over the brain, just in two areas. One is the hippocampus and the other is the olfactory bulb. But the hippocampus is the only place where exercise can stimulate the release of growth factors. Where does that come from? It seems to come from muscles in your body, from liver release factors released in the liver that then release bdnf, that goes into the brain, that goes straight to your hippocampus and helps those brand new brain cells grow. Exercise doesn't do that to the brain cells in the olfactory bulb. So this is. I mean, if there was going to be one area that I could have that has new brain cells, I want it to be my memory area. Okay, I'm a little biased because I studied memory for 25 years in my neuroscience career and I love it. And it's so, you know, it's critical to our personal histories. It defines us as people. You don't realize, you know, where would you be without your own personal memories, your likes, your dislikes, the things that make you laugh, like there's no tomorrow. All those things are stored in your memory. And that is because of this beautiful structure that we all have. One on the right, one on the left, that is our right and left hippocampi. That is the structure that we get to get brand new brain cells in. And I've just given everybody the secret tool to do that. Move your body.

B (33:02)

You know, I love what you said about memory there in terms of what it does for us, what it gives us as humans. Because I think when a lot of us think about memory and not losing our memory, I think many of us think about, I need to be able to remember to do stuff. I need to remember where I put my keys, these kind of things. But what you're saying is that it goes far beyond that. It's about our sense of who we are, our personal story. That's really profound, Wende.

A (33:36)

Yeah, it is. And it comes from years and years and years of studying patients who have the unfortunate event of having amnesia, which is usually their hippocampi get damaged. The most famous, probably the most famous neurological patient that ever lived was an amnesic patient whose initials were H.M. he passed away and we now know his name was Henry Mollison. And I grew up as a scientist learning about this patient who had severe severe epilepsy. And epilepsy starting at 7 years old, that got worse and worse and worse into his 20s. So he couldn't go to school, he couldn't Work. His epilepsy was so bad, he went to a neurologist and at that time they were doing experimental brain extractions. And they knew that taking out one hippocampus could help epilepsy. That's still done today. But what they did back there in the 1950s, they took out both of his hippocampi because his epilepsy was so bad and it was experimental. And he agreed because the epilepsy was so bad. The good news was it cured the severity of his epilepsy. The horrible news is that it left him unable to form any new memories from that point in time until he died in his 80s. He was 27 years old. And then he became the most famous amnesic patient. I mean, nobody knew that the hippocampus was so important for memory before this patient. And so first they went out and they said, okay, nobody take out both hippocampi ever again. Look what happens. And then of course, they went on to study him and realized that without your hippocampi you can no longer form any new memories for facts and events. But he did maintain his memories from childhood. He remembered his mother, his father, his childhood friends, which meant that those memories kind of got processed through the hippocampus. They got stored, presumably someplace else, and he was still able to access them. He had his, he, he learned language, so all of his language skills remained intact. In fact, he liked to do cross crossword puzzles up until the end of his life. But he could not form any new long term memories. And he had the wherewithal to say that who am I without my memories? He maintained his Persona of 27 years old. And people always ask the neuroscientists who studied him, did he recognize himself because as 80, he. There's an 80 year old face staring at him in the mirror. He only remembers his 27 year old face. And the answer was yes, he could recognize himself gradually aging in the mirror. But it makes you think about all the amazing things that the hippocampus does for us every single day in creating our reality. Every day.

B (36:54)

Yeah. So powerful. So exercise helps us increase this growth factor, bdnf, which gets sprinkled on our hippocampus and helps us grow new nerve cells and I guess in many ways bulletproof it from future problems. Not bulletproof, you know, make it less likely. Insulate it. Maybe that's a better way. There's other growth factors though, as well, aren't there? I think. What is ltp? Long term potentiation. Where are we at with our knowledge of that at the moment.

A (37:32)

So we studied this. Okay, so let me define what it is. Long term potentiation is this physiological pattern of activity that people discovered in the hippocampus in the 70s. By the 70s, we understood the hippocampus is important for memory. What kind of magical physiology is going on in the hippocampus so that it helps us make all these memories? Ltp. It's basically a physiology trick. What you do is you can give a little stimulation and get a little response out of the hippocampus in the synapses in the hippocampus. But then if you give a bigger, it's called a tetanic stimulation, which is higher frequency stimulation then in the hippocampus, but not in many, many other brain areas. You increase the output of those synapses after this one higher frequency stimulation and it stays changed for a very long time. That was touted for a long time as, ah, this is what memory looks like in the hippocampus, which is true and not true. It's very artificial. And now we're much more sophisticated about not just the physiology, but the molecular cascade of events that happens in these amazing hippocampal synapses, those connections between neurons in the hippocampus that do result in change after an experience. So I have the new experience of speaking to you this morning. I've never met you before. I've never seen your face before, but now I will recognize you next time. I'm walking down a London street, I suppose, and I run across you, that means that something, and if I do recognize you, something in my brain, something in my hippocampus is literally changing right now to help that memory form that will be there when I'm walking down that street in London. That's, that's, that's ltp. And that's, that's the implication of what LTP is.

B (39:48)

And does exercise enhance LTP so increase the positive effects of this? I mean, how does exercise play, play a role here?

A (39:57)

Yeah, so exercise is doing many different things. Exercise is increasing the number of neurons in the hippocampus. It is increasing LTP in those neurons that has been showing. But also, interestingly, one of my favorite findings for hippocampal nerds, which I am, is that it's been shown that those brand new hippocampal neurons that are born in adulthood, particularly with exercise, you can give, for example, a rat lots of exercise, a running wheel to go on, and you could show that they have lots more new hippocampal cells than the rats that don't have the running wheel. Well, it turns out that those shiny new hippocampal cells are like teenagers. They're really active, and they get involved in lots of things. And what do they get involved in? New memory circuits. We're now sophisticated enough to learn to be able to see an activation of hippocampal cells in a particular memory circuit. And it turns out that those brand new cells that are being formed with sprinkling BDNF on the hippocampus, those are more likely to get engaged in memory formation. So that is consistent with the finding that if you give rats more exercise, they are better at a whole bunch of different spatial memory tasks than rats that are couch potato rats.

B (41:20)

Now, I knew coming into this conversation that the hippocampus was your favorite area of the brain. I'm definitely getting a strong sense of why that is, having been talking to you, you know. What did you call yourself? A hippocampus nerd?

A (41:34)

Yeah, I'm totally a hippocampal nerd.

B (41:36)

Yeah. Hippocampal nerd. I love that. I think that's a great phrase. If we think about the hippocampus and how important it is, one of the things that we're seeing, even pre pandemic stress was huge across the world, to the point where, you know, it was called the health epidemic of the 21st century. This is four or five years ago, and obviously, for many people, that has increased over the past couple of years or so. What does stress do to the brain? And in particular, what does chronic unmanaged stress do to the hippocampus?

A (42:14)

Yeah, so that's a great question. The hippocampus we've known for a long time is particularly vulnerable to high levels of stress. And let me just go to the end phase, ptsd. Somebody with ptsd, which is chronic unmanaged stress, military kind of stress, for a long, long, long time. We've known for a long time that that results in smaller hippocampus. Their hippocampus is smaller. Why is that? We know that as well. Many, many receptors, which are kind of the doors that bring particular chemicals in. There are receptors to cortisol, the stress hormone, lots of them in the hippocampus. So high levels of cortisol will have a big effect on hippocampal cells. And what does that effect? Well, unmanaged, it will start to first damage hippocampal cells, but then with unmanaged stress, it literally kills cells in the hippocampus, resulting in that Physically smaller hippocampus. In fact, patients with PTSD have a smaller entire temporal lobe. And that is the result of long term stress. And that's just only on your brain. It's causing havoc in your cardiovascular system, in your digestive system, in your reproductive system as well. So it's bad news. A little bit of cortisol will kind of wake the hippocampus up and make it work better. You remember those moments of a little bit of high stress, Somebody calls on you in class and oh yeah, I remember when Professor Suzuki called on me. However, if we go into military long term stress, that is really activating the hippocampus, that starts to damage it and the branches of the neurons will start to kind of prune away, get smaller, receive less information, and eventually high levels of cortisol will kill hippocampal cells.

B (44:25)

Yeah, I think there's a really important distinction there that you covered that a little bit of stress, especially if we have time to rest and recover from it, is good for us. It's gonna help us perform better. And when I give talks to companies to try and help them with wellbeing, a lot of the time I say, look, we're not trying to get rid of stress, right? A little bit of it. You know, if you come on stage to talk and you have a little bit of stress, if it's the right amount, it's going to help. As you're saying your hippocampus work better, right. It's going to help you focus and your memory. You're going to pull things out of your memory that you maybe didn't have front of mind. It's when it goes on for too long and it's too much that what started to help you in the short term now becomes very toxic and harmful. In your view, Wendy, like I've spoken to a lot of my colleagues about this as well, and we are seeing an increase in memory problems or certainly patients coming in complaining of memory problems. I would say these days in our 30s and 40s. Now I know there's many possible causes for that. Of course we can do blood tests, we can look for things like B12 and all sorts of things that may be playing a role. But this is not really age related dementia. My feeling, Wendy, for many years has been, is that stress has gone through the roof and people are constantly switched on. They're always on the devices, they're staying late, they're not allowing their brains to switch off. And I feel this has impacted their memory. I'd love your Perspective on that.

A (46:01)

Yeah, I have exactly the same feeling here in the States. There was kind of the epidemic of brain fog. Everybody had more brain fog, they're staying home all the time. And actually that and so many of the reports of increased anxiety is part of the reason why I wrote this book. Good anxiety. I think that uncertainty, the difference between that good stress that you were talking about when you go give a talk and you know that little, little boost, it's a little scary, right? You want your audience to listen to you, but you chose that talk. You have controlled anxiety. However, if you're in the middle of a pandemic, you have no health insurance, you don't know whether your boss can fire you tomorrow, that leads to uncontrolled anxiety. Lot and lot of uncertainty. And my simple definition of anxiety is the fear and worry that comes with situations of anxiety, which everybody can immediately see why anxiety levels went through the roof during the pandemic. And I think those uncontrollable levels of anxiety that always comes with stress. So stress is a physiological response that is created by part of our nervous system or is controlled by part of our nervous system called the sympathetic nervous system. It just gets, you know, released every time you get, you get an anxiety provoking kind of situation from an email to the news coming on and that is releasing all the cortisol, it's increasing your heart rate, increasing your respiration rate, and shunting blood from your digestive and reproductive organs to your muscles. Now we just talked about all the bad things that stress can do for your brain. Let's talk for just one second about what that stress and that it's called the sympathetic fight or flight response. People have always heard of the fight or flight response. What does that do for your body? Well, imagine long term increases in heart rate, cardiovascular disease, long term leaving of blood from your digestive system, ulcers, long term leaving of blood from your reproductive organs, reproductive problems. So I think all of these are kind of contributing to the new normal level that we're seeing. I'm not saying it's not reversible. I'm just saying we know a lot, as you know, as a GP of what stress can do to us, which really should motivate us even more to learn how to relax. And that's the good news, right? The answer is learn how to be kinder to yourself, learn how to be kinder to others. Because empathy is something that also increases dopamine in your brain, if you didn't know that. And so the message is a good One, Even though it's not easy sometimes to see your way out of not looking at your devices, not stressing yourself with the news cycle, it is absolutely possible, and your brain and your body will thank you for it.

B (49:17)

Yeah, really great explanation. We're going to talk about anxiety in some detail before we do that. Just going back to the hippocampus now. I'm conscious that a lot of people who are listening or watching this right now may be thinking, oh, man, I've been under a period of chronic stress. I've been killing it really hard. I've had brain fog. Oh, no. Are my brain cells in my hippocampus dying? Are they dead? What impact is that gonna have on me? So I wanted to just double check with you whether those cells can regenerate or whether. Listen. Or whether we can just take that optimistic view that, hey, listen, you can't change what's happened, but if you change what you do going forward, you can absolutely regenerate and create new nerve cells. So give us a little bit of hope there, Wendy, if you can.

A (50:15)

Yeah. So, yes, the answer is there is hope. And that is why I think I'm an optimistic person. I've studied what's called brain plasticity for my entire neuroscientific career. Brain plasticity says that the environment that you live in can actually change the connections of your brain. And they could change it in two ways. Certain experiences can up those brain cells, make your trees of your neurons big and beautiful. And other experiences, chronic stress, chronic anxiety, can trim those branches and make your neurons smaller and sometimes even kill those neurons. It is a constant dynamic, and that's part of what makes the human brain literally the most complex structure known to humankind. It is so highly responsive to our environment, which gives us the power to change that environment to one that favors positive brain plasticity, growth of neurons, and. And disfavors negative brain plasticity. So, yes, your history does not define it. What you do today is what your brain is gonna be responding to.

B (51:41)

So if that neuron or nerve cell's getting smaller because of chronic stress and you then make a change, can that same neuron get bigger again? Or is it simply a case? Yeah, the same one. Wow, that's really empowering. But also new ones can be created as well.

A (51:58)

Yes. In the hippocampus.

B (51:59)

In the hippocampus. You've mentioned the prefrontal cortex a couple of times during this conversation, and I'm just thinking about Wendy. A few years ago, I wrote a book on stress, and I Seem to recall reading some research that people who suffer from chronic work stress have got a smaller dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, which in turn reduces their ability to self regulate and make good decisions.

A (52:26)

Sure, sure. So the prefrontal cortex is another one of the many amazing areas of the human brain. It basically does so much. The prefrontal cortex is large. You refer to one portion of the prefrontal cortex that we know a lot about. That particular area is important for what's called working memory, which is not the same as the long term memory that the hippocampus is involved in. But it's your moment to moment ability to remember the conversation. So for me to remember that. We are now on the topic of prefrontal cortex. We finished the hippocampus for now. That is being processed by my prefrontal cortex. It is what keeps you in a conversation without embarrassing yourself or saying the wrong name to the person, or all the other things that we all embarrass ourselves with every once in a while. That is called working memory or scratch pad memory. Back in the old days, people used to say that's the memory you needed to remember the phone number from the phone book before you actually called it. But of course now we have no memory of that because it's all in our phones or in Google. But it's scratch pad memory is a good way to call, really is part of our everyday life and it allows us to function normally at work, to go from one thing to another, to order our days appropriately. If you have damage in this area, very hard to bake. Why? Because you need order to bake. You can't put the eggs in first. You have to put the flour and the, you know, the dry ingredients first. So that kind of ordering is so important for the prefrontal cortex. And we also use it. Actually, what I've studied most is the role of the prefrontal cortex to shift and focus our attention. Can you pay attention to this part of the spreadsheet, which is the top of conversation, and filter out that other part? Even though you may know more about that other part, it's being able to do that. And I think we'll probably talk about meditation just a little bit. Meditation is really an exercise of the prefrontal cortex to be able to say, actually, can I focus on my breath? That is one of the simplest forms of meditation. Any yoga class you go to focus on your breath. That ability to filter everything out. Ooh, I like her outfit. Ooh, this mat isn't thick enough. No, you have to focus on your breath. That is a major function of the prefrontal cortex and helps us to understand why. The practice of meditation goes far beyond the mat or the yoga mat. But it goes to everything that we're doing because it is strengthening a major function of our prefrontal cortex, our ability to specifically shift and focus our attention to where we choose, not where the environment chooses.

B (55:39)

Going back to, I think what you said at the start, exercise helps the hippocampus and it helps the prefrontal cortex.

A (55:48)

You're right. Absolutely, it does. So exercise, it has an immediate effect. One of the things that I've shown in my lab is just one workout session we happen to do, 30 minutes can improve your ability to shift and focus attention of the prefrontal cortex. And that effect lasts for at least two hours after, after the workout.

B (56:14)

Regarding anxiety, a lot of people when they feel anxious, turn to alcohol to help them alleviate that. With respect to what we've been talking about, let's say the hippocampus and I guess the wider brain, we've talked about the impact that long term unmanaged stress has on our brains. But long term chronic alcohol intake can also be regarded as a stressor on the brain. Are you able to give us a little outline as to what too much alcohol for too long does to those kind of structures in our brain?

A (56:55)

Yeah, so I think the easiest way to understand what alcohol is doing is, is to first step back and say there are two kinds of activation that you can get in your brain cells. A positive activation, more activity caused by what's called excitatory neurotransmitters, which are those chemicals that help the communication or define the communication between brain cells, or inhibitory neurotransmitters that decrease that activity. Well, guess what? Alcohol is an inhibitory, acts as a inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. And so what that does is lots of things. First, think about pouring lots of inhibitory neurotransmitters over your brain for a long, long time. That is part of the effect that we're seeing with alcohol. But on a kind of night by night basis, it might lull you into sleep quicker, which I think many people use. However, we also know that it is a significant good sleep disruptor and that is part of the long term detrimental effects of alcohol on your brain. So I don't know if you've experienced this, where you might get drowsy if you had a little bit too much alcohol to drink, but the sleep that you get after that night of alcohol consumption, unless you're blacked out, but just a little bit more than usual, you don't get a very good night sleep. And that sleep is so. Sleep deprivation, I should say, is so detrimental to normal brain function. Sleep is. So I like to tell my undergraduates, you know what happens when you deprive people or animals of sleep for too long and they say, oh, they get cranky, they die. It is a physiological function. So long term sleep deprivation causes death. So it's that critical. And so those studies help me kind of get motivated to really look at how to improve my sleep. And one of the things that is a common detriment to good sleep, that really helps your brain regenerate and work best the next day is alcohol. Even a little bit of alcohol can have those negative effects.

B (59:39)

Yeah. Do we know? I mean, you just mentioned there, just a little bit. And I know with alcohol it gets very hard to give guidance and you know, there, there are sort of government guidance in terms of what sort of unit range people should stick to. Certainly here in the UK there are. You're making the case, I guess from that, that even one glass of wine can have a detrimental impacts on the brain.

A (60:08)

Well, one glass of wine will affect sleep and that can. It's not going to kill your brain cells, one glass of wine. But if you want to optimize that brain regeneration kind of mechanism that we all have at our disposal, you'll want to decrease that alcohol consumption.

B (60:31)

So moving to anxiety now, anxiety is on the rise. Now I can see on the shelf behind you that you've got this beautiful red cover. It's called Good anxiety. I think in the UK it was released with the title anxiety is your superpower. Are you?

A (60:45)

Yes.

B (60:46)

Yeah. So wanted to make that super clear. Depending on who's listening to this, where in case I want to get hold of it. One of the really interesting things I felt about this book is that you call anxiety protective and you also call it a powerful self help tool.

A (61:07)

Yeah.

B (61:08)

Now most people who suffer with anxiety don't think that it's protective. They don't want to have it, they don't want to feel like that. They certainly don't call it a powerful self help tool. So I wonder if you could elaborate, Wendy, in terms of what exactly you meant by that. Vivobarefoot are one of the sponsors of today's show. Now I am a huge fan of vivobarefoot shoes and have been wearing them for over a decade now. Well before they started supporting this podcast I've also been recommending them to patients for years because I've seen so many benefits. I've seen improvements in back pain, hip pain, knee pain, foot pain, and even things like plantar fasciitis. And contrary to what you might initially think, most people find Vivos really, really comfortable. But I have to say, especially at this time of year as the temperature is starting to drop, their winter boots are absolutely fantastic and I myself am really enjoying wearing their brand new goby warmlined winter boots now as well as adults. I think they are a fantastic option for children and I really hope that in the future more and more children start wearing barefoot shoes like Vivos as I think this can prevent many downstream problems in the body later on in life. And remember, whether for your children or yourself, if you've never tried Vivos before, it's completely risk free to do so as they offer a 100 day trial for new customers. So if you're not happy, you just send them back for a full refund. If you go to vivobarefoot.com livemore they are giving 20% off as a one time code to all of my podcast listeners. Terms and conditions do apply. To get your 20% off code, all you have to do is go to vivobarefoot.com live more ever have one of those days when everything seems to go wrong and before you know it, you've slipped back into those habits you're trying so hard to avoid? Like sugar, doom, scrolling and wine. When it comes to making changes in our lives that actually last, most people think the solution is to try harder. But this is simply not the case. In my new book, Make Change that Lasts, I reveal how exactly you can break free from the habits that hold you back. What many of us don't realize is that our behaviors follow our beliefs. So when you change your beliefs, and my book will show you how to do that, you'll spend less time having to think about your habits because they'll happen automatically. Make Change that Lasts, the number one Sunday Times bestseller is available to buy now all over the world as a paperback ebook and as an audiobook which I am narrating. And if you've not got your copy yet, what are you waiting for?

A (64:28)

So the reason why we called the book in the uk anxiety is your superpower, and in the us good anxiety. So people would look at it and like what? What could she be talking about? Here's what I mean by Anxiety is your superpower anxiety. Evolutionarily speaking, anxiety and that underlying physiological stress response that we spent so much time talking about over the last hour. Evolved to protect us. That is truly the reason why it evolved. Now we're talking 2.5 million years ago when those stresses came from physical danger. The lion, the tiger, the bear. When somebody walking around trying to gather food hears the crack of that twig, what would happen? Ooh, anxiety. That could be a bear or a lion to kill me. That releases the stress response. And what does the stress response do? It increases your heart rate. It shunts blood to your muscles. So you can either fight the lion or run away. Perfect mechanism. It is why we are here today. Unfortunately, that mechanism has not evolved with our evolving culture. And so while I have not been attacked by many lions or tigers or some. Some rats here in New York, but no lions and tigers and bears, I do get anxiety through lots of different mechanisms. Every time the email, the text comes in, oh, God, what is that? The news cycles, social media, are real causes of anxiety that still release that stress response. And it's got us to the situation that we were just talking about. Brain fog. High levels of anxiety. And so everybody's saying, okay, well, you just answered your own question. It's not helpful. Right? And my answer is, yes, it is helpful, because at the core, anxiety is protective. And what this book does is shows us all how to get to that protective level of anxiety. And the first step is to turn the volume down. So, absolutely, I'm with everybody. Our anxiety levels are too high. I'm not saying that this level of anxiety, high level, kind of uncontrolled, is good. We have to get to that controlled level. As you were pointed out, your beautiful example of giving a talk that is good anxiety, that that propels you to give a better talk than if you were in the weekend Netflix kind of level of activity. You would give a terrible talk if you were at that level. No, you need that little fear. You need a little bit of anxiety. I do, too. To give the best talk that I could give. That's what we're looking for. And that's what my book outlines and shows us how anxiety can bring us gifts or superpowers. In many parts of our life.

B (67:32)

Anxiety, as you say, at its core, is there to protect us. I think through the lens of that wild predator 2.5 million years ago, that feeling of anxiety would result in us taking some kind of action.

A (67:52)

Yeah.

B (67:53)

So looking at it through that lens, the same response is happening for many of us now to our email inbox or the state of our lives or our to do lists. First of all, is it accurate to say that it's the same response? Like the body literally cannot tell the difference whether it's a Lion or 42 emails you've got to reply to. Okay, is that first of all accurate? And secondly, in terms of creating this feeling that causes us to take action, as I sort of briefly touched on already, some of the actions that we tend to take to try and change our state or not feel that anxiety are alcohol, sugar, food, whatever it might be. So, you know, so what can people do about that?

A (68:48)

Okay, so let me tackle the accuracy question first. And that's a great one. So, like 2.5 million years ago, there could be a certain stress response to a fox versus a lion. I think I would be a little bit afraid of a fox and a lot afraid of a lion. So. So there was that gradation in 2.5 million years ago. Today also, I mean, a little text when I'm looking forward to a friend responding back, that that might might not stress me out, but 42 emails coming in first thing Monday morning, that that could stress me out, or that that unexpected zoom request from your boss that comes Sunday night, that could also really stress me out. Just like the fox versus the lion, we have different gradations of stress response. It does work in a very similar manner. What you outlined about the action orientation of that original stress response is beautiful because you've just outlined the rationale for the superpower of stress that I always like to start with, which is, did you realize that one of your superpowers because you and everybody else has this emotion of anxiety is that it comes with a superpower of productivity? Let me explain how that works. So this comes with a very common form of anxiety, which is that what if list. What if the boss emailed me at Sunday night to ask for a zoom meeting because she wants to fire me. She hates my work, she hates me. She hates everything about what I've been doing on this new project. That what if list is a very common form of anxiety. But the other thing to note is that that what if list is revolving around things that you care about. I don't have what if lists about how many shows on Netflix I've watched or not watched. I have what if lists about my work, about the meetings coming up that are more difficult or more easy. These what if lists are showing you what is valuable for you, what you care about in your life. That's the first thing to notice. The second thing is what am I going to do about it? The what you're going to do about it is you're going to shift your what if list into a to do list. You're going to put the action on it as you just identified as that kind of fundamental response to that anxiety provoking activity 2.5 million years ago. So what are you going to do? Well, you can't do anything late at night if that. Well, let's say that the email comes in from your boss first thing in the morning. What can you do? You're worried about your productivity at work. Go ask three people about how they think you're doing. Ask advice about things. Two, go to your coaches, go to your advisors about this. Three, go to your friends. Talk through the anxiety with somebody that cares about you, cares about what you're doing. Take action on each one of those things that come up in your to do list and that will help relieve that anxiety because you are and actually help prepare for that meeting that you're going to have to have anyway. It is making your anxiety and acknowledging your anxiety as something that is centered around things you care about and taking action on that. So that is the superpower productivity that comes from your anxiety.

B (72:39)

Yeah, I think that's a very powerful idea. It speaks to that kind of central point you make that anxiety is protective because it's really there to give us a message, isn't it? Yeah, it's, you know, the message 2 million years ago is you need to run now. You need to move your tribe and your things.

A (73:03)

Yes.

B (73:04)

And instead of maybe looking at it as a problem, although I understand the temptation and I understand why people would think that this is basically saying, well, one way you might want to look at this is go, well, what is this teaching me? What is this telling me about the state of my life or the particular thing I'm anxious about instead of trying to shun it away, as you say, turn that what if list into a to do list. So in some ways you're really asking people to reframe their anxiety, aren't you?

A (73:35)

Yes. Yes. And that's another big topic in this book, which is the power of mindset in addressing your anxiety. In fact, I also call it a superpower of anxiety. This comes not just from me, but lots of psychologists that have looked at approaches to anxiety. Can you look at the, at the thing that's making you anxious in a different way? Let me start with one that is in my history a lot while I'm a speaker now. I was a very shy young child, but I was really interested in my classes and I had this battle, like, every time I wanted to ask a question, oh, I want to ask it, but I'm going to look stupid, and then they're going to think I'm stupid if I ask this question, just that battle for years and years and years. And what I would say to my younger self is, ask yourself why you're there in that classroom. What if I give you the job of asking at least two questions in class, not about whether you're going to make a right answer or a wrong answer, but that's your job in what you bring to. To being in this classroom, that that is part of your responsibility. So it goes from, oh, I don't know whether I should ask that question to, oh, I'm assigned to ask two questions that are of interest to me as part of my kind of contract in being in this class, which is what I tell my students in my own class. And so it really switches the narrative. It switches your mindset from, I'm putting myself out there on the line to be ridiculed by everybody, which was my mindset, to, ah, I have to. I have to. I have a job to do in this classroom. This is part of my responsibility. And of course, you know, not being ridiculed and not being made fun of as a. As a teacher, of course, I don't. I don't do that. But. But it really is powerful, the belief system that you go in with. And that is something that can be addressed and modified in so many different situations of anxiety.

B (75:53)

Yeah. You know, reframing that anxiety, it's so powerful, isn't it? Because ultimately, if you don't reframe it, if you think, why am I feeling like this? I don't like this. I want this to go away. A, you've lost a bit of agency over what's happening. B, you think there's something wrong with you. And I think certainly what I do with my patients. Very similar ideas to what you've been writing about in your latest book, which is, no, the anxiety is trying to help you. Let's try and figure out what the message is behind it. You don't want to get rid of it necessarily. It's a signal, right? It's a signal to learn from.

A (76:42)

Yeah, exactly. It is learning. And you can say that for any uncomfortable emotion. All these uncomfortable emotions were not just invented to annoy you in your life. And sadness, anger, anxiety, all of them, they're all warning systems. And my favorite way that a very smart friend of mine, Desi Levinson, has taught me to think about it and talk about it is. Is instead of anxiety as this big, heavy weight that's around your neck and weighing you down, what if you think of it as a little kid that's just going, hey, hey, over here, Project over here needs some attention. And just completely shifting that heavy. Oh, God, why me To. Ah, yes. That project is very important to me. That's just a reminder. It's still an uncomfortable emotion. I'm not getting rid of it. And don't believe anybody that tells you they're going to get rid of all your uncomfortable emotions, because that is unhuman. But reframing it to something that can direct you more clearly to that thing that is important to you.

B (77:57)

Yeah. And tying this back to exercise, of course, is going to help here, right? Not necessarily with reframing, although it may help you see the world differently after your workouts. But going back on that evolutionary level, the anxiety often is there to encourage you to move, to run, to hide, to get away from danger. Yet, of course, these days, a lot of the anxiety is coming down while we're sat on our bums looking at a computer screen. So what is the relationship between exercise and anxiety?

A (78:35)

So that is a great question. I mean, there is a direct relationship between exercise and anxiety. And it goes back to that 10 minutes of walking, only 10 minutes of walking can have an immediate positive effect on anxiety levels. That is, it will decrease your anxiety levels. And the reason for that is what we talked about, what we started with, that wonderful bubble bath of neurochemicals. By moving your body for 10 minutes walking, you are releasing serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline, by the way, these are the things that are in common. Antidepressants. You get it for free just by walking inside or outside, up the steps or down the hall. It comes with that. And so good anxiety is not just healthy brain, happy life. About anxiety, I go into lots of different areas, but of course I can talk a lot about the powerful direct effects of just 10 minutes of walking on modulating that mood state, which is something that everybody needs to know about, but more importantly to do.

B (79:43)

Yeah. In your book on anxiety, you also talk about resilience and these seven characteristics. One of those from recollection is about having an optimistic outlook, which is something you've already said that you have. And what I love about what you're saying is that an optimistic outlook is something that you can work on and cultivate for yourself. It's not something that's necessarily given to you. You can create it and practice it.

A (80:11)

Right, right, it is. And it goes back to mindset. Do I have a negative mindset that everything is going to go bad or do I have a belief system that says that if I work on my regular exercise that I will get better, I will get stronger? If I create positive relationships in my life, it will just grow and expand. So sometimes it's helpful to have a coach or a guide to get you started if you're having a hard time doing that. But I'll tell you, once you get into it, it gets even more powerful because you see what works for yourself and you can create those mindsets for your own self and kind of create this, this wonderful life environment that is good for your brain and your body.

B (81:02)

Yeah. I mean there's so many tips on anxiety in the latest book, which I think is going to be so helpful for people who are struggling in terms of reframing it, looking at it a different way, looking at it as a superpower. Right. I think people are going to really, really get a lot of value from that. You mentioned meditation briefly before and I know a longer team meditation is part of your morning routine, but you've also done some research, haven't you, that 10 minutes of meditation can have profound effects on us. So I wonder if you could talk us through what does the research currently say about meditation and why should we consider doing it? And if you can also touch on music, I know there's a little section in your first book on the benefit of music for our brain.

A (81:49)

Sure. So meditation. There is a growing literature on the beneficial effects of meditation on the brain. What changes in your brain from meditation? My favorite meditation studies were done in collaboration with the Dalai Lama on some of of his Tibetan Buddhist monks who they measured their brain activation with a measurement called eeg. And they showed that even at rest, these monks were very, very different than non monk controls. And that when monks were asked to meditate, I always love to quote from this study that there's a particular frequency called gamma that you can measure in eeg, the electroencephalogram. And their level of gamma, it says in the paper, went up so high. Never seen in non pathological situations. But they were just meditating. There was nothing wrong with their brain. They had practice. And these monks had had tens of thousands of hours of meditation practice. That just shows that at the extreme meditation can change your brain. It is an example of positive brain plasticity. And while my brain is probably not like the monks meditation, I do practice this. And what I found and what has Been confirmed in many studies, is that meditation also has benefits on your mood. Decreasing negative mood states like anxiety and depression, increasing positive mood states like optimism. It also can improve your focus and attention, like exercise. So it's very interesting that an activity that is so quiet and an activity that makes you move around all the time has similar beneficial effects. And you might ask, well, Wendy, what's going on there? And my answer is, well, we don't know all the mechanisms. I suspect that there are different mechanisms resulting in the same behavioral output. Better mood overall, better mental health status, and better prefrontal function. Because the prefrontal cortex function seems to be very, very amenable to both exercise, moving your body and meditation. And my morning ritual comes after years of trying. Like, I want to meditate, I feel like I should meditate, and then I fail. I've tried everything. Oprah, Deepak, they. I tried them all, and then I did it for a little while and then I failed. I don't know if you can relate to that.

B (84:25)

Yeah.

A (84:26)

But I, I finally found this situation. It's called the tea meditation, which is meditation over the brewing and drinking of tea that, that the UK culture will, will appreciate. But no phone, no paper, just, just, just waiting. And meditation during the brewing, during the pouring, during the drinking and starting over. That ritual got me to stay in meditation for longer than ever than I ever had, and has kept me coming back. I learned it on my birthday seven years ago, and ever since I learned it, I've done it with my exercise, every morning before the exercise, and I'll end with music. And so music, my favorite study, neuroscience study of music, asked people to come in with their favorite musical piece, that piece that gives them goosebumps every single time they listen to it. And they were scanned in a MRI scanner while being played that piece of music that was different for everybody, that gives them goosebumps. And the response was a huge activation in part of the reward areas of the brain. The same reward area, despite the different music and the different people. And the bottom line there is that music is something that is very, very rewarding for the brain. And so as we're searching for things that will decrease our anxiety and increase our. Our happiness, find that piece of music that gives you goosebumps and simply listen to it.

B (86:13)

Yeah. Wende, I love it. Your enthusiasm is infectious. Your research has been life changing for many of us all around the world. These two books you've written are absolutely fantastic. Wendy, this podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives and just right here at the end of our conversation for someone who's listening and who's feeling inspired by what you've had to say, but is also thinking, yeah, but life's not great. I've got all kinds of stresses in my life. I feel anxious. I can't see a way out of here. What would you say to them?

A (86:59)

I would say there is a way out and start small. Can you walk for 10 minutes? Try walking. When a moment of anxiety comes in, try doing a short breath meditation and if you can't find one, go to YouTube. They're free and they have millions and millions of likes. You can start small, but there are tried and true scientifically based ways to decrease your anxiety and improve your mood state. And this podcast, books like My books will help you find those things and do it in bite size pieces and everybody can benefit. This is what works and there is hope and just give it a try.

B (87:43)

Professor Weny Suzuki, thanks for coming on the show.

A (87:46)

Thank you so much. What a great conversation.

B (87:53)

Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life and also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free@drchatterjee.com Friday 5 Now if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world covering all kinds of different topics. Happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change and movement, weight loss, and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks and as audiobooks which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the episode notes in your podcast app. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle changes always, always worth it. Because when you feel better, you live more.