← Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee
Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee
How to Find Happiness, Peace & Purpose Even When Life Feels Hard with Mo Gawdat #596
01:13:57
We all want to be happy. Yet the harder we chase it, the more elusive happiness it can seem. This week’s returning guest podcast believes the answer does not lie in changing our circumstances, but in changing how we see them.
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- [00:01]
A
Holding on to a grudge only hurts you, never hurts the other person. It's like drinking poison and hoping the other person would die. It's not very clever when you really think about it. Just forgive, accept that life comes with stories and benefits and just enjoy that you've moved to another experience.
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B
Hey guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast Feel Better Live.
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A
More.
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B
We all want to be happy, yet the harder we chase it, the more elusive happiness can seem. Well, this week's guest believes that happiness does not come from changing our circumstances, but in changing how we see them. Mo Gaudat is the former Chief Business Officer of Google X and the author of multiple best selling books including Soul for Happy and that Little Voice in your Head. Following the tragic death of his son Ali, Mo has made happiness his primary topic of research, diving deeply into the literature and conversing on the topic with some of the wisest people in the world. Now I've actually decided to put my conversation with Mo out across two separate episodes. Mo actually came onto my podcast to talk about relationships and how he believes technology and AI can help us transform them. But when we started chatting, our conversation went off in a completely different direction. We ended up having a quite wonderful conversation that ended up lasting well over two hours, and so I've decided to put out the first half of our conversation today and the second half next week. In this week's episode, the first half of our Deep Dive conversation, we discuss what it really means to say that happiness is a choice and why that perspective can coexist with deep compassion for pain and loss, why happiness is not actually dependent on external circumstances, and how it's possible to find peace and even when life feels difficult. What Mo learned about happiness from growing up in Egypt, the powerful lessons he drew from the death of his son, why suffering can be one of our greatest teachers, how our thoughts are what keep pain alive and Moe's belief that death is not the end and how physics and spirituality can point to the same truth about consciousness. This is a moving, emotional and thought provoking conversation that helps us see that happiness is not fragile or fleeting. It's a state of being that we can nurture even when life feels hard. And Mo's story, I think, is a testament to the strength of the human heart and our endless capacity to find meaning through love. As I think about your work, as I read your books, it seems to me that there are at least three things that you believe that not everyone else in the world believes.
- [03:26]
A
Is that true? I'd like to be informed about those.
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B
Okay, so I thought we'd start by going through those three things and getting your take on them. So you passionately believe that happiness is a choice?
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A
100%.
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B
Not everyone shares that perspective.
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A
Yeah, absolute happiness is not anyone's choice. Suffering is part of life by definition. But choosing to be happier is 100% within your grasp. Everyone absolutely has the ability to learn a skill or to reframe a thought, or to surround themselves by what they need to find a little bit of a happier life. That's absolutely no doubt. So if you can change yourself from, say minus 1 to minus 0.5 or from minus 1 to plus 0.5, then that by definition means you have a choice. And so that choice is not absolute, but it's definitely there when it comes to your relative state of happiness.
- [04:24]
B
The idea of absolute happiness versus becoming happier I find really interesting. So let's go to an extreme scenario. I think you've touched on it already, this idea that let's say someone is living in incredible struggle and there are lots of things going on in their life outside of their control. The natural belief that many people take from that is if those external circumstances changed, I would be happier.
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A
Correct.
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B
How does that sit alongside your perspective that happiness is a choice?
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A
So that's not always. That belief is not true because, you know, many people who don't have those circumstances are still unhappy and many people who have those circumstances are happy. So you see, the idea is there is no inherent value of happiness in anything. You know, the joke I always make is that, you know, rain doesn't make you happy or unhappy. Honestly, rain depends on what you want from life. If it's your ex's wedding, you'd like rain. Rain is a good idea. Right. And so basically the externalization of my happiness is because of what the world is giving me, in an interesting way, is a six year old behavior. It's basically giving up on your autonomy, on your agency and your own happiness by saying, you see, life is giving me lemons again. And the idea here is that, as I said again, to have the proper empathy, there are people in the world where it actually is very difficult to be happy. It's they've lost their family or they're in a war zone, or they're going through a very difficult breakup, or there could be reasons they have chronic pain or some kind of a chronic illness. Or you, you know, you and I have experienced working with People in those states, in our work and yeah, it becomes difficult to find happiness. It even becomes difficult to find happier, you know, states at that time. But truth is, most of the time, for those who choose to blame life for their unhappiness, whatever life would give them, they'll find something to blame. You see, the idea is, as I always try to teach is happiness is the difference between the events of your life's, you know, the events of your life and your expectations of how life should be. And so, interestingly, you go to some of the places where the best quality of life exists, you know, where the subjective well being is very high and you'll still see very high suicide rates, reason being, you know, when, when, when your government gives you healthcare and gives you unempl payments and they'll take care of your every need somehow, somehow in our always ambitious minds, let's call them, your mind will go like, okay, so if the government can do all of this, why is my girlfriend still annoying? Where's my service level agreement? I signed the service level agreement that the world is always going to give me everything I need to find happiness. And if the world fails, then I'll be unhappy. And the question is, where's that agreement? Show it to me.
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B
I mean, I completely agree with your perspective that happiness is a choice. It's a skill that we can cultivate 100% once we know how to do it. And I wonder how much your upbringing in Egypt influences your perspective here. And the reason I ask that is because I was born and brought up in the uk, but my parents were immigrants from India.
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A
And you can see the difference.
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B
You can see the difference. And every other summer we would go for the entire school British summer holidays to Kolkata in India. And I often reflect back to those days now and go, wow. I would repeatedly meet and see people in what we would regard here in the west as poverty, but their whole sense of being was light. There was a contentment, there was a happiness. Yes, and as you said before, and as I said before, there are so many millionaires, multimillionaires, miserable billionaires who are deeply unhappy.
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A
Miserable more often than not, actually.
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B
Exactly. Because often the drive to go out there and achieve and show the world that you were something that came from a place of lack of.
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A
Yeah, that was the story of my life. I mean, growing up in Egypt, happiest person ever. I remember vividly, you know, nothing would dent my happiness. It's, you know, in those societies you get two very beneficial happiness advantages. One is that you see misery all around you, you see suffering. All around you, you see lack and need all around you. So it reminds you of how blessed you are. Right? The reality is, if your expectations are, I may not be able to eat today. You know, if someone gives you a bowl of rice, you're very, very happy. And that, I think, is the reality of a place like India. You know, people value what they get. They don't feel disgruntled about what they didn't get because they can easily see. In my first book, Soul for Happy, I basically called this looking down. And the idea is that, of course, if you look up at all of the Ferraris in Mayfair, you'd say that you'd think that life is unfair to you. But if you look down to people in war zones or people who are starving, suddenly you realize, holy. I mean, like, I didn't contribute to that. I could have been born there myself. Right? And somehow that reminder really creates a sense of realism in you. Okay, then I, you know, I became very successful. And I remember in my late 20s when I was so focused on collecting so much wealth that I didn't. And feeling frustrated when things didn't go my way and feeling anxious when my daughter interrupted my time when I was focused on a silly email or a stock chart. These were created by me, not by life. And the misery was my work. Life was giving me more and more and more and more. And I was constantly disgruntled with why is it not perfect? Again, the service level agreement. But you see, the other interesting thing is when you deeply, deeply look at life, you need your basic needs and love, okay? And if you get your basic needs and love, it's not difficult to work on your mind to get into a state of happiness. Okay? If you know, of course, there are many people that have their basic needs and love, but. But don't work on their mind. And so they never find happiness. But I'd ask everyone who has those two in their life to really think deeply about how blessed they are, whether it's feeling loved, which in my view is a state of ego, if you think about it. But most importantly is being able to love, is being able to look at someone and go, like, I am my divinity. That part of me is capable of feeling the connection to that other being. And I think that in itself is sufficient, if you ask me.
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B
Anthony d' Amello writes in Awareness that if you're not feeling happy right now, you're doing something to make yourself unhappy.
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A
Exactly.
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B
And I remember the first time I read that, I underlined it. And I keep going back to it and I use it a lot because we're all human and we can all fall into certain emotional traps from time to time. And if I'm ever feeling, which is very rare now, this state of discontentment, I ask myself, ranga, what are you doing that's making you feel this way? What. What perspective are you taking on life here? You know, What. What emotions are you ignoring? And what I like about this approach, which I totally agree with, is that it's very empowering. Because then, if happiness is a choice, then instead of us being a victim to the world and events outside of our control, we're suddenly the architects of our lives. We're suddenly like, oh, actually, there is something I can do here. Now, why you saying this has particular value for people who've never come across you before? Your son, Ali, died after significant series of medical errors during a routine operation. How old was he?
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A
21.
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B
He was 21 years old. So I think when someone like you, having been through that, says happiness is a choice, I think it lands differently.
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A
Yeah. I don't know how to say this, but a lot of people think that when you're a grieving father, you have no choice because it seems that the only plausible choice is to just put your head down and wait to die. Honestly, I mean, in an interesting way, grief is quite a tricky one because you feel deceived by life. You feel that life targeted you personally. You feel that life is never gonna be the same. You lose the point of, like, so what now? Many feel that it's a bit of a, believe it or not, of betraying the one they love if they can actually find happiness after them. And there are so many complexities that happen to us in grief. Interestingly, though, we don't have one choice. You know, I could have, you know, hit my head against the wall in misery until the day I am on my deathbed, or I could choose to be a little happier every day. Either way, Ali wouldn't come back. You see, this is what most people don't recognize, is that all of the misery in the world has no impact, zero impact whatsoever on the external world. Right? And it really is quite interesting because when you were talking about happiness being our own, unhappiness being our own doing, if you want, I tend to say that the majority of unhappiness happens in your brain. Okay? That all of the other joyful emotions can happen all over you. They can happen in your body, they can happen in your heart, they can happen in your spirit, they can happen in your brain. But for you to feel unhappy, think about it. Ali left us now more than 10 years ago. The pain of the moment when he was on his operating table leaving us is probably the biggest pain I ever felt. The moment after they told us that he left was the lowest moment of my life. But think about this, Rangan. Those moments happened in the past, okay? When I walked into in here and hugged you, an old friend, and we haven't met for a while and we caught up, I didn't think of those moments. And so, interestingly, they didn't exist. So you see, the problem with us humans is that we grant unhappiness the right to exist within our minds. We fuel those thoughts, and then we let them torture us and they wouldn't bring Ali back. Do you understand that? Okay, so where's the wisdom in this? Where's the wisdom in me finding the most painful moment in my life, then bringing it up in my head again and saying, okay, let me play that scene again and torture myself? How smart is that? Right? The opposite is interestingly true because, you know, people will say, ali died. That's a true statement. Okay? But I also say Ali lived. Equally true, as a matter of fact, more true, because Ali lived 21 years and left for 10. Okay? When you really, really think about it, Ali lived is the same fabric of the thought, to die you have to live and to live, you have to die. But it's interesting because Ali lived is such an empowering thought. Okay, first of all, Ali was not planned. We didn't plan to have Ali, okay? And then we get this gift, unbelievable blessing that comes into your life, teaches you, shows you love. We laughed so much together. We played so much together. You know, we learned so much together. He, you know, he's one of the biggest gifts. Ali and Ayah, by definition, are my biggest gifts in life. My daughter Ayah. And then, you know, the human mind would take all of that and say, no, I'm upset. You know, why did he leave? And I'm like, he left because he came. Now think of the, you know, of the scenario where God or the universe or whatever you want to believe in, decided to not bring him to your life in the first place. You look at it now and you go like, you know. You know, if it happened during life and you didn't notice it, you would have never missed him. It would have felt that life has never taken anything away from you, okay? But the truth is also, life would have never given you the blessing. At the same time. But you look at it now and you go like, oh, my God. You know, I would absolutely take the pain a thousand times more to take the blessing of having him in my life for 21 years. Right. And if only we start to see those things. Okay. If only we start to see that. I'll use simple examples so it's not too dramatic. If only we start to see our annoying manager as an indication that I have a job. If only we start to see being stuck in traffic, that I'm going somewhere and someone's waiting for me. If only we see the flu that you suffer as an indication that you've been healthy until you got the flu. And all of these, you know, where they exist? They exist here.
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B
Yeah.
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A
The outside event is exactly the same.
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B
Yeah. It's such an empowering message because we actually have a huge amount of control over where we put our thoughts, how we frame every single situation. And it's. It's. I would say one of the most important and one of the most beneficial skills in life is to understand at a deep level that all you could definitely say most situations are at their core, neutral. It's the perspective we take on that situation that really determines its impact on us.
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A
I'd go even further, Ranger. I mean, I did an experiment, a thought experiment I used to call the eraser test, where I told people, take the most painful memory in your life. Okay. And I used to teach solve for happy to people in person. So I had probably up to maybe 20,000 students or so over multiple years. And I would tell them, take that situation the most painful in your life. Bring it up into your mind. Now you feel it again as if you're in it even though it passed. Right. Feel the pain. Torture yourself. Make yourself feel miserable. And of course, the minute I said that, everyone was like, yeah, celebration, Let me torture myself. And someone would think about that bully in school. The other would think about that boyfriend that cheated or whatever. And some would think about very painful situations. Then I tell them that we've invented a technology that has the ability not to erase it from your memory, but to erase that event from space time. So completely remove it. Okay. And I would ask people, how many of you would choose to erase it. Everyone would raise their hand. Okay. And then I would say, but the only problem is that if we erase it, we will erase everything that happens as a result. That friend that you met, that lesson that you learned, whatever, anything that happened as a result of that event will be erased in the process. Okay? Who would still want to go through the experiment. 98% would put their hands down. Okay. And the reason is, very interestingly, any suffering that you went through in life is what made you the person that you are. Okay. And unless you really, really dislike the person that you are, okay, then you're grateful for all the pain that you went through. And it's quite interesting because you always look back at those events and you go like, it was very painful then, but it's actually wonderful now. Right? And then if you see this and you see it with clarity, you know what you should ask yourself? You should ask yourself, so why am I so upset about this event now? You know that one that's hurting me now is going to be wonderful then, right? I just have to accept that the only way that we progress to enlightenment in life is to suffer. I have to accept that. And if I can accept that, okay, then suffering doesn't become suffering anymore. Suffering becomes part of the video game.
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B
Yeah. Life school, you know.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Inner work school, whatever you want to call it. We did cover this concept of happiness being a choice in detail on our first conversation. So I want to get to the next two things that I think you believe in, everyone does. Before we do. Let me just tie a loop in something you said right at the start when you were explaining this idea that happiness is a choice. You brought up the rain and saying.
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Rain'S just apologize for Britain. But. Yes, no, no, but it's a relevant example here.
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If it's your ex girlfriend's wedding, you're happy.
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Yeah.
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B
And I. I think you were saying that to sort of illustrate the point that the rain is neutral. It depends what it signifies and what perspective you're taking on it. But if we just go back to that for a minute. If you're happy that it's raining on your ex girlfriend's wedding day, you need.
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A
To do some work.
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B
You need to do some work. You're being tied in your mind to the past.
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A
You have no idea how I said that example. You're the first one that picks that up. Absolutely.
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B
It's, you know, you know what, you're holding onto something. You're being tired, you haven't moved on, you haven't let go.
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A
And you know who's suffering?
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B
Yeah, you, not her.
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A
She doesn't even know that you're suffering.
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B
You know, the fact that you're even checking the weather forecast on her wedding day, That's a problem.
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A
Exactly. It's quite interesting that, you know, holding on to a grudge only hurts you yeah. Never hurts the other person. I don't remember, was it Nelson Mandela or Gandhi, one of the two who basically said it's like drinking poison and hoping the other person would die.
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B
Yeah.
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A
This is not very. It's not very clever when you really think about it. Just forgive, accept that life comes with stories and benefits and just enjoy that you've moved to another experience.
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B
The second concept I think you talk about, which I think there's a lot more people who believe this now than even 10 years ago, but I would say the vast majority of people that I come across, at least I don't think believe this, is that death is not the end.
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A
Yeah, for sure.
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B
So I'd love you to expand what you think about that. You know, why you believe death is not the end and why is it, do you think that a lot of the world does not share the same perspective as you?
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A
Oh, wow. Okay.
- [24:56]
B
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- [28:22]
A
The reason the world doesn't believe is because the propaganda machine has been working against spirituality for a very long time. Okay? There is a lot of the goodness of our older world. If you miss it in today's world, it's because it's not beneficial for capitalism or politics. It's as simple as that. And spirituality, or, you know, spirituality, has been hijacked originally by religion and then religion attempted to hijack politics. And so in the process, especially in this country, as a matter of fact, the separation from, you know, between the church and the state and the whole idea of sort of making it look ridiculous if you believe in something bigger than you is very systemic, okay? It's very systemic because it doesn't help those in power control you. If I'm allowed to say that, and I don't mean that deliberately, as if the British government is attempting to control you by taking you away from spirituality or any other government for that fact, but from the rules of power in history, where, by the way, governments are not the power in this world. The powers in this world are much bigger where governments report to them. Really, you know, religion is only useful if you can frame it in a way that gives those in power something. But otherwise it's to be removed from the common man's heart if you want common man's and common woman's heart. The reason I believe this is not religious scriptures or spiritual scriptures at all. I'm a very boring mathematician, a physicist, and I look at the world from that perspective and if you understand, I'll try to simplify. But if you look at if you take the simplest thing like an object subject relationship, for example, basically if you are inside this studio, you cannot describe the building from outside. To be able to describe the building from outside, you have to exist outside the studio to be able to witness it. That's an object subject relationship. And if you take that within yourself, our experience of space and time, especially the passage of time, or the arrow of time as we call it in physics, is not possible if you existed within the arrow of time. So if we are, you know, the description of the arrow of time is that, you know, we're moving from frame to frame along the space time continuum. All of us, you know, all of us, and the whole universe would just move from frame to frame. It's actually not the time that is moving. We are moving through time, right? That's our understanding in physics. But if you need to experience that arrow of time, you have to exist outside it, okay? And if you exist outside it, that basically means that you are not part of space time. And so accordingly, time doesn't work apply to you at all, okay? And that basically means that your physical form is, you know, is subjected to time and to space, you know, to this physical reality. But the real, you know, if you want entity that's holding the, holding the controller that manages your physical avatar, experiences all of this because it's not part of it. So that's, number one. The only way to experience space time, like the only way to experience this building is to be outside. It's the only way to experience space time is to be outside it. So this is one side. The other side is from a physics point of view, if you understand the only commonly agreed explanation of the small mass that was condensed enough to explode into the big bang, 9 billion years of nothingness. Then the planets and the galaxies start to form, and then within them, planet Earth forms 4.3 billion years ago. And so on and so on and so on on, until a few million years ago, life starts to exist on planet Earth. You know, that view of existence is temporal, so it follows the arrow of time. It's within space time. But the other view of it is the view of quantum physics, the Heisenberg interpretation of the uncertainty principle, if you want, which basically says that nothing exists until observed by a form of life, right? And so who observed the original mass? Who observed the 9 billion years of gas? Who observed planet Earth before life became part of it? You have to understand then that the observer has never been part of that system. The observer, life itself existed outside space and outside Time. And I can give you a million other proofs, but the reality is, whatever it is that animates us, call it life, call it spirit, call it consciousness, whatever it is, whatever animation, this avatar is not within this avatar. That's very simple to prove. Now if that is the case, then death is not the opposite of life. Life has existed since the big bang happened in forms that we are unable to comprehend because we live within the illusion of this 76 years life expectancy, right? But the truth is that life has always been there, is not the opposite of death. Basically, death is the opposite of birth, right? You come to this form, this physical form, through a portal called birth, and you leave it through a portal called death. And then life exists during, before and after, okay? Life's always been there. My son Ali, if you understand any little bit of the theory of relativity where basically Einstein teaches us and we can prove this with absolute observation, it's not just theory, you know, that there is a slice of time. If I was approaching planet Earth at very high speed, at an angle, there is a slice of time where my reality would see my birth in the U.S. for example, in the U.S. time zone, my son's birth in Dubai time zone and my son's death in Japan's time zone, all as one slice of time that would actually become my reality, right? Which basically what Einstein shows us, the relativity of time is that time doesn't exist at all, okay? And so accordingly, my son Ali was not born after me and died before me, okay? My son's avatar existed on a slice of space time that came after the slice where I existed. And he decayed on a slice before the slice where I decayed. But Ali himself was always there during, before and after. Ali's not younger than me, he's not older than me. As spirits, as souls, as consciousness, we're the same. We've always been there. We've always, I jokingly, because I love that image, we've always, me and him been sitting on that threat sofa as souls holding the corners, controllers of our avatars as we went through this physical life. And it's interesting because I can talk about this for hours, but I don't wanna overcomplicate the physics. But it's interesting because most people who have faith would have doubt in their heart around those non measurable realities. If you want those people who believe in science will say anything after life is not measurable. So it's not the concern of science. But if you really look at science with a bit of spirituality, it's undeniable that we're just here experiencing the physical world.
- [36:49]
B
Yeah. I mean, thank you for sort of going through that. And I would love at some point a two hour deep dive on that. I'm very much of that belief as well. And what you said there about science is really interesting. I think these days people misunderstand science in a massive way. And the simplest way I can put it is that science is our best attempt to understand reality. But it's not reality. Reality is reality. Right. And what we're trying to do with our limited methods is trying to study what's actually going on in reality. But we think science is reality. So people, especially in my profession and in the healthcare world, get obsessed and they are literally disciples of what is in the publication that was peer reviewed without realizing that these are all limited measuring tools. They're only there for a certain subset of populations. They may not be relevant to you. And they're fighting about it as if that's truth. Even though we know as, as I Learned in week one of medical school, 50% of what you learn here is going to change is going to be found out to be untrue and wrong. The only problem is we can't tell you which 50%, 100%. Right. So if you take that approach, which really has humility at the heart of it, you go, actually, we don't know. There's a lot we don't know. We're just trying to make the best sense of what we do know. Like, and this is not the best example, but last week's episode was with Bryce Applebaum, who's this wonderful board certified optometrist in the United States. And he's doing some really interesting work where he's talking about the difference between vision and eyesight. But one of the things he managed to do with me is over five days, three hours training a day on eye exercises and brain exercises, my eyesight got six fold better in five days. Wow. Right? Same room, same lighting, same time of day, everything, Right. No part of this is exaggerated. And of course most people love the episode. But there's a few people who are like, that's nonsense. And it's usually people from the optometry world, right? So if you look at this objective and you stand back, you have to go, there are tens of thousands of adults around the world who are reporting improvements in their myopia in adulthood in a variety of different ways. Right. Some are doing it from just spending a ton of time outside and no longer looking at near things Some are doing exercises, some are using red light therapy. You'd have to be willfully ignorant to go, that's not happening. I don't understand why some of my colleagues don't go, wow, that's not what I was taught. Isn't that interesting? But a lot of people don't do that. They go, that's rubbish. That's bs.
- [39:54]
A
Can I tell you why?
- [39:55]
B
Please do.
- [39:56]
A
Because science is the religion of the modern world.
- [39:59]
B
Yeah.
- [40:00]
A
It totally was, again, deliberate to replace spirituality with science. Now, science is not only a religion where people are blinded by what they believe. Right. It's interestingly, very egocentric. Why? Because the scientific statement. And I'm a scientist, so don't get me wrong, I adore.
- [40:20]
B
There's nothing wrong with science once you know its limitations.
- [40:23]
A
Exactly. I adore science. But science tells you this. Scientists tell you that if we can't observe it and measure it repeatedly. Right. Then it doesn't exist. That's the absolute wrong statement. If you can't observe it and measure it repeatedly, then it's not the concern of science. Right. Love exists. You can't measure it and observe it repeatedly. Right. But we all know it exists. Right. And you know, germs existed before we created microscopes. Yeah. And the interesting bit of this is if you have that humbleness to accept that these things exist, but as a scientist, they're not part of my domain, then whose domain is it? Spirituality and philosophy.
- [41:10]
B
Okay.
- [41:10]
A
And spirituality and philosophy come in and say, I can't measure it, but I feel it and I understand it. And I wanna give you 14 explanations. None of them I can prove with science, but maybe choose one that comes close to you. Right. And interestingly, that didn't help the separation of the church and the state. Okay. And so we again live in a world where we are told to believe certain things. And if you're dumb, you just believe whatever you're told. If you're smart enough, you start to become fanatic about what you believe, which you were told. But if you're really smart, you start to question everything.
- [41:51]
B
Yeah.
- [41:51]
A
Anything that you and I will say in this episode, I invite everyone to question it 100%.
- [41:56]
B
You may be wrong.
- [41:58]
A
I'm certain that something I will say is wrong.
- [42:00]
B
Yeah. And that's okay.
- [42:01]
A
100%.
- [42:01]
B
And that's okay. Yeah.
- [42:03]
A
I think what really matters is that you genuinely try to say your truth. Okay. But that you humbly try to say, and I don't know. I mean, one of the topics I cover extensively is artificial intelligence. Right. And you know, I say it almost every time I remember to say it, that anyone that tells you anything about the future is arrogant or wrong. Okay. Because the future is in flux and it's moving so fast and the technology is changing every day and, you know, people are using it for so many things that I don't know. I can only tell you the sum of what I crunched together so that you can make up your mind. But in this world today, it is so interesting how people now take 60 second clips of anything and either take an absolute position for or against it, which, you know, remember, you know, when I was growing up, we used to call it common sense. It's a very interesting skill. I don't know if we remember any of it, but basically, someone tells you something, you go and look for what else is being said about this and you make up your mind.
- [43:04]
B
Yeah.
- [43:04]
A
Own mind. Do we remember that? Make up your own mind. It's your truth.
- [43:10]
B
The way modern science has been interpreted by so many people is to give us the illusion of certainty.
- [43:19]
A
Yeah.
- [43:20]
B
And I think people like certainty. Right? People like to feel that, oh, I know what's happening, I can control this. But actually, that's a very limiting viewpoint. It's a very fragile place to live because there is so much out there that is uncertain. And.
- [43:35]
A
But also remember, science is a cult. It's not just a religion, okay? It's a cult. And you and I know if you've been in the scientific community that there are taboos, okay? There are things you cannot touch. Right. I had a guest on my podcast when I was podcasting, Dr. Stephen Seymeier. Incredible. He wrote Darwin's Doubt, one of his books. Okay. And he basically took Darwin's research, which had a disclaimer at the end that said, here are some of the things that I don't know enough about and you guys need to research after me. One of them was the Cambrian Explosion, which was an era in history where an endless number of species appeared in a time, you know, in a sort of a period that does not correspond to evolution at all. And he said, you know, someone needs to study that. So Stephen studies that. And he has an incredible, you know, debate around the possibilities of how that happened and so on and so forth. And completely gets banned from science because that's taboo. Don't discuss, you know, you don't discuss Darwin. Darwin is like God. Right? But if we don't discuss Darwin, how do we find out if part of what he's saying, not all of what he's saying, I actually believe evolution is a method of design. Right. But, you know, if you don't question that, how do you find out the 50% that you're wrong about it?
- [44:56]
B
Yeah. Whenever you can't question something, you've got an inherent problem.
- [45:01]
A
100.
- [45:01]
B
You've got an arrogance within you that actually says that, I know this to be true. There is no possible way that this can't be true.
- [45:10]
A
Yeah. And the only time when that happens, Rangan, is when there is someone in power that's telling you not to question it.
- [45:16]
B
Yeah.
- [45:16]
A
Okay. Look at this nation at this time. Okay. And how many things are you're not supposed to say in public?
- [45:23]
B
Yeah.
- [45:23]
A
Okay. And once you realize that, you realize that if you say it in public or you discuss it or you debate it, or you ask your friends about it, you may actually find out something other than what you're being told.
- [45:34]
B
Yeah. And to bring it back to an individual, if you're someone who. I would say if someone's listening to this or watching this and finds themselves getting very defensive or triggered when they see something online or someone in their network says something that they don't naturally agree with and you're having this disproportionate emotional reaction, I think you should put a mirror up and go, why on earth does someone having a different perspective from me trigger me so much? Okay.
- [46:09]
A
100.
- [46:10]
B
And that's a much more. It's like happiness being a choice. We can choose our mindset in every situation. If you're getting triggered by something, if you don't take that empowering perspective, you're a victim to the world. You're walking around getting triggered all over by everyone. Everyone. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to your belief system. And the way you see the world actually is problematic. People don't realize there is such a massive dose of arrogance within that, but.
- [46:37]
A
There is also a massive dose of unfairness to oneself. Think about it. Right? Because if what you want the most is to be right, then the best way to. To get there eventually at the end of your life is to be told you're wrong when you are. Do you understand the logic of this? It's like if I really, really. And I genuinely. I love knowledge. I know you do too, because we have our conversations around things that we're working on internally. Right. I love knowledge. But the only way I can continue to know, to learn, is to remove part of what's filling my glass and replace it with something that now makes more sense. And the whole idea of evolving as humans is all about continuous development, continuous debate with everything that you've believed.
- [47:30]
B
Yeah, well, we could go down a deep rabbit hole.
- [47:34]
A
That's a two hours there.
- [47:35]
B
Let's just. I'm gonna. Just because I wanna make sure we get to AI and why you believe. I think that it can save relationships. We'll come to that. I just wanna get to the third one. So I' covered two savvar things that you believe that a lot of people don't believe. Happiness is a choice. We've covered that death is not the end. We certainly covered that. And I want to talk more about that. I'm having to restrain myself there. The third one, which I kind of feel relates to the last two actually, as I hear you talk about them, is this idea that solitude is an essential ingredient for a meaningful and purposeful life.
- [48:19]
A
Oh, my God, yes.
- [48:21]
B
Not everyone shares that perspective. I certainly do. But why are you so certain, given what we just said, that solitude is an essential ingredient? This episode is brought to you by Airbnb. One of the things I love about traveling, whether it's for work or with my family, is finding those little moments to slow down together. Like this summer in Sydney after my tour when we just sit outside in the evenings playing cards. Or in Egypt last October, when we just chilled out and chatted whilst the sun went down. That time away reminded me how much the place you stay in can shape the nature of your trip. And it got me thinking, if you've got a home or even a spare room, hosting on Airbnb is a way to share that experience with others whilst also earning a bit extra. Now, I know full well that there are times when life can feel really busy and hectic, but that's exactly where the co host network on Airbnb comes in. You can team up with a trusted local co host to handle all the details for you. They can help you get set up, look after the guests and make sure that everything runs smoothly. And it's perfect for anyone that's looking to share their space, but doesn't have the time to do it all themselves. So if you've ever thought about hosting on Airbnb but needed an extra pair of hands, a co host could make it even easier. Find a co host@airbnb.co.uk host. Today's episode is sponsored by Vivobarefoot. The human foot is a masterpiece. 26 bones, 33 joints and over 100 muscles and tendons that evolved to move us and ground us. But unfortunately, we've lost touch with our natural connection to the earth through modern footwear. Barefoot shoes are a tool to restore that primal link between brain and body, foot and earth. I've been wearing Vivo barefoot shoes for over 12 years now and there is simply no way I would go back to wearing cushioned shoes. What many people don't realize when they are used to wearing cushioned shoes is just how disconnected they have become from their feet and the way their feet interact with the ground. Vivobarefoot strips away the unnecessary no thick, spongy foam, no elevated heels, just thin flexible protection that lets your feet move, stretch and strengthen the way nature intended. The science is simple. When your feet can feel, your body moves better. I have felt it myself and experienced feedback from thousands of patients and friends over the years who have also felt the incredible benefits of wearing barefoot shoes. As well as their regular office shoes and athletic shoes, Vivo also have a fantastic range of winter boots and my current favorites are the Tracker Forest. Absolutely fantastic feel. They are really comfortable, really warm and at the same time have insane amounts of grip. I cannot recommend Vivo barefoot shoes enough and if you want to give them a try, please do use Vivo's online sizing tools to ensure that you find your own perfect fit. Step into better health and freedom for your feet. VivoBarefoot are offering an incredible 25% off your first Vevo Barefoot order only until the end of November plus a 100 day discovery period with money back guarantee. To get your 25% off, visit VevoBearfoot.com LiveMore before the end of November and start your barefoot journey today.
- [52:41]
A
Every sage, every prophet, if you believe in prophets, every saint, every monk, everyone that wanted to understand the non physical went on 40 day retreats. It's shocking when you think about it. Moses walks up the mountain or Muhammad stays in the cave or Buddha sits under the tree and you get countless stories of that, perhaps other than Jesus who might not have needed it. But the idea is that if you believe that there is a point in your life where eating less or fasting is healthy for the body, consuming less and engaging less is very healthy for the mind. It's just as simple as that. It's the idea that constant stimulation that comes into our minds, the constant demand to analyze, to solve, to engage, does not allow you to reflect, does not allow the dust to settle. So one thing I do almost twice a week now is I would extend my intermittent fast for a long time, stop eating at 4pm and then not eat again until maybe 5pm the next day or something like that. And you have no idea how much relief my body gets out of that. And it's quite interesting if you think about. Yeah, some people will say it's healthy or not healthy. I do it not for the autophagy of it, as they say. I do it because it actually really gives my digestive system a break. Right. And so the interesting side of it is your mind, when you give it a break of silence, gets to settle all of the stuff that has been suspended in constant analysis. Okay. And silence. So I do 40 days. I unfortunately this year failed because of the projects I'm working on.
- [54:45]
B
Generally. You do a 40 day silence retreat?
- [54:48]
A
I do 40 days a year, yeah.
- [54:49]
B
And are you going somewhere for this or are you just.
- [54:52]
A
So the interesting thing is I always acknowledge to myself what I'm very bad at. So I don't go to a monastery because if a monk wakes me up at 4am in the morning to meditate, my day and his day are gonna be horrible. Okay? So that's not good behavior. I'll be very honest about that. But what I do is I go somewhere in nature where I stop using words. You know, I can write, I can listen to music that doesn't have lyrics in it. And I allow myself every other day a 10 minute check on my phone just in case there is an emergency. But I don't respond. I just look at the messages quickly because unfortunately I'm not a monk, I'm half monk only. And so when you really do that, you get a lot of walks in nature. I allow myself again, which is not the typical vipassana. I allow myself paper and pen and I write my thoughts and so on. And it is breathtaking. You know, the first few days are very unfamiliar. You're in constant fomo. You're constantly reaching out to your phone. You're wondering what to do after 7pm if there is no YouTube or you know, whatever you're used to. In the evenings I normally eat very light, so I completely change my diet and basically walk and exercise and so on. By day seven you settle, okay, you settle in that, you know, now you're busy, you're really busy. You're processing a lot of thoughts, you're taking notes down, you're, you know, you're feeling stronger physically, you know, it's a beautiful time. By day 21, you start to get massive, massive downloads of Clarity. Okay? You sleep better, by the way, your body relaxes a lot more. By day 32, 33, you start to cry because you don't want to go back, okay? And I believe it or not, it is probably the highlight of my year. Now, what normally happens is I write in a very unusual way because I don't start writing a book until it's completely formed in my head. And so Normally by day 17, I can sit down and, like, write four and a half, five chapters in the next two weeks. Right. Things like that are not the property of analysis. They're not the property of deep work or whatever. They are the property of a brain that has a massive amount of noise in it. Then you let it settle, which is all of us. All of us have a mind that's completely confused. And then you let it settle. And then suddenly you see with clarity, with, you know, like a tranquil lake, you can easily see everything that you need to see. It's heaven.
- [57:54]
B
It's like you're doing less and in some ways producing more. Producing way more. Yeah. It's kind of interesting, isn't it, that, like, so many people will say they don't have time. Will say that, oh, yeah, I have this great idea for a book, but I never get time to write it because the way a lot of us think these days is we think we have to add more things in, you know. Yeah, but I need to do something else. I need to watch a new video. I need to download that course and learn more productivity techniques or whatever it might be. But actually, what you're saying is it's actually way simpler than that, actually, if you can. Now, of course, some people will say that they can't do 40 days.
- [58:39]
A
100%.
- [58:40]
B
Yeah, but just that concept that actually, if you can have some more silence in your life, it is amazing what will come up from within you that you have buried. I mean, this is absolutely not the same thing. Every summer, I go off social media for about four to six weeks. And I also take time away from this podcast, which consumes a lot of my time and my wife's time week to week. And I go and see the world with my wife and kids for a few weeks. Okay.
- [59:12]
A
Beautiful.
- [59:14]
B
And yes, of course, being on holiday is nice. Being together with your wife and children when you're not distracted is lovely, and I'm very fortunate to be able to do that. And being off social media, I frankly just hardly go online in that time. You just don't realize. People do not realize how much their thoughts are influenced by the inputs they keep putting in each day. I realize every summer I start to tune in with myself again. I go, oh, wow, this is what I think. And you're less confused by the world around you, by the thoughts of others. You have more conviction in who you are and what you're doing because you've allowed yourself to spend time with yourself. And I also, the days before I go back on, I don't want to go on. I know, I know. And of course, I don't want a pity party. No one makes me go on. Right. I choose to go on and I choose to share, hopefully helpful information on my channels. Right. So I'm not asking for pity. It's just an interesting. Like, you found your version of something that works for you in your life. You know, I found aversion. And it's definitely nowhere near as intense as what you do.
- [60:26]
A
But when you have a wife and kids, it becomes very difficult to do this.
- [60:30]
B
Exactly. So I think at the moment that works for me. But you also mentioned fasting there, and I think this links back to what we were just saying about science. Right. A lot of people ask, is fasting good or bad? Right. Which I would say is the wrong question because it depends for who and in what context.
- [60:48]
A
Yeah, exactly.
- [60:50]
B
Now, a lot of people also looking to science to tell them if they should be fasting. Correct. But here's the problem with that, right? I'm not saying don't do that. I'm not saying, you know, I'm very familiar with the scientific literature on fasting, but that's only looking at fasting through one lens. What is it doing to your autophagy? What is it doing to your insulin? What is it doing to your lean muscle mass? That's a fraction of the potential benefits that fasting can give you. What about the mental benefits? What about the psychological benefits? What about you start to get in touch with yourself and your cravings and realize, wait a minute, half the time that I think I'm hungry, I ain't hungry, Right? But because we're not measuring that, fasting becomes this really divisive topic online where it's like, no, you shouldn't be promoting fasting. The world seems to have gone mad. It's like, listen, an individual is more than capable, if they tune into themselves, of deciding, is fasting good for me? Do you know what I mean?
- [61:52]
A
When is it good for me?
- [61:53]
B
And when.
- [61:54]
A
You see, the challenge we have is we've come to a world where someone has to tell us what to do. Why don't you just tune into your body and say, I've been eating a little too much. I think I'll, you know, I'll skip dinner don't call it fasting. Just say, I'm gonna skip. Right. And if you skip dinner, by definition, you've done 12 hours. As simple as that. You know, maybe even more. And so. And so it's really interesting that if you tune into those things, one of the biggest challenges for me is because I travel so much, it's actually almost certain that I will eat crap. Right. And recently, in my older years, as I, you know, try to be more and more healthy, I just realized that actually eating crap is worse for me than not eating anything at all. Yeah.
- [62:42]
B
Okay.
- [62:42]
A
And so when I'm in an airport and, you know, because of my Islamic background, we fast 30 days a year in Ramadan. And so, you know, I'm very used to that feeling of being hungry but deciding I'm not gonna eat until 6pm Right. And it's a wonderful feeling. If you tune into it, it's actually really, really, you know, somehow, you know how your sore muscles after a gym workout actually feel good because, you know, they're good for you. I actually love that feeling of, I'm hungry, but I'm not gonna eat.
- [63:13]
B
Yeah. It's very. Again, it's that theme of empowerment. It's. I don't have to be a slave to my cravings and my feelings and my emotions. I have personal power to go, actually. Yeah, I know I'm feeling that, but I don't need to engage with it.
- [63:30]
A
Yeah. To submit to it. Yeah.
- [63:31]
B
Now, at the same time, I also very much acknowledge that for some people, fasting is not the best thing. But sort of bringing solitude back to those first two points. I'm a huge fan of solitude. Like you, I think it is essential. I don't think you'll ever know yourself without solitudes. And if we think about that first theme, happiness is a choice. Well, I would argue that it's in solitude where you'll realize, oh, I keep making disempowering decisions. I keep making myself a victim to what this person said or that person said. It's in solitude where you'll realize, oh, I can actually change that. And then even the second point of death not being the end, in solitude, you may find that you tune into.
- [64:19]
A
You bring the best questions. Yeah, absolutely.
- [64:21]
B
Do you know what I mean?
- [64:22]
A
So one of my favorite. Let me keep the audience waiting for this for a second. If people don't wanna do 40 days, what I really normally recommend is a mini silent retreat. Every other Sunday, you set your alarm clock to 3pm and you just disconnect from the world until your alarm clock goes off. So you wake up. When you wake up, you don't interact with knowledge, you don't interact with your phone, you don't speak, you don't look at time. And then you give yourself what could be seven to eight hours.
- [64:53]
B
So from Sunday morning until 3pm, you're having this mini silence.
- [64:58]
A
Silence every other week is, I think, a reasonable rate.
- [65:01]
B
I love this. Tell me more.
- [65:02]
A
So Saturday evening before you go to bed, you set your alarm to three. Not to wake you up, but to not engage with knowledge until three. Okay.
- [65:11]
B
Not engage with knowledge. That means no books.
- [65:14]
A
No, I'd rather, because it's a mini retreat, I'd rather you do nothing but a paper and pen.
- [65:21]
B
So you're not consuming anything from the same thing. It's all kind of internal, basically.
- [65:25]
A
Yeah. Not including timepieces. You're not consuming time if you can not consume music, or at least, you know, just instrumental music. And you tell your children, you tell your wife, I'm on a silent retreat and basically just give yourself those seven to eight hours. It's incredibly. It's even more empowering, believe it or not, because of repetition, than doing 40 days.
- [65:50]
B
Not to belittle this in any way, because I want to do it, but I just had a thought that I think my wife would love it if I did this. But genuinely, I think she thinks I talk too much. I think she would be so happy if on a Sunday I didn't talk till 3pm she's wonderful.
- [66:05]
A
So I'll take a couple of things.
- [66:08]
B
But in all seriousness, I think this could be a super valuable practice.
- [66:11]
A
Yeah, it really is. And so we were talking about how silence relates to death. So one of my favorite, favorite spiritual practices is the Sufi approach to enlightenment. Okay. So the Sufis believe that the way to find enlightenment is to die before you die. Okay. And it's quite an interesting definition that death is defined as a detachment from everything physical. Right. And dying before you die is to be fully alive, fully healthy, fully engaged, fully in love, fully reflecting, but you're not attached to the physical world. And silent retreats and fasting, believe it or not, or a combination between the two is the closest you get to that. Because suddenly you're basically putting a distance between you and everything that distracts you. Okay. And, you know, in a grieving heart, believe it or not, one of the most empowering things that held me when Ali was leaving was that idea that we're all already dead. If you think about the idea that we're all eventually going to leave. So it's a zero sum game. You come to this world with nothing, you leave this world with nothing. So why are you attaching. Why are you holding on to all of those things? Right? And if, you know, in my mind, you know, pilgrimages, you don't have to be pilgriming to any place, but you know, to just walk slowly to another place. Silence and fasting are some of the top practices that can get you to that state of disconnecting from life if you want to be fully alive, but dying before you die.
- [68:04]
B
It's so powerful. I've been meditating a lot over the past few months, and I recently had Henry Schuchman in the studio. He's a Zen master. He founded the Way app, which is amazing. And we spoke for the first time on this podcast about non duality. And he shared this experience where I think he was 19, he was on the. He was backpacking around South America, and he was just looking at a sunset over the ocean. And suddenly everything changed where he realized that he wasn't separate from anything. He realized that the end of the boundaries of his body almost weren't there. He was part of everything. And I know in our first conversation, you very evocatively described how Ali, I think he said, didn't he, before, he wanted or you said, he's now everywhere.
- [68:59]
A
And part of everyone.
- [69:00]
B
Everywhere and part of everyone.
- [69:01]
A
Yeah.
- [69:03]
B
But if you take this more non dual perspective on life, so are all of us.
- [69:13]
A
That's it. I think we can end this podcast and every other podcast here. This is it, okay? The illusion of this physical world is incredibly powerful. Okay? So if you want to experience that, go to a movie theater, right? You sit in the movie theater, there is this annoying guy next to you with popcorn. There are those people that are talking. There is the red exit sign. You know, the carpet is not really clean. And then they switch off the light and they play the movie, and you completely get absorbed into that reality, okay? You completely forget everything else, right? You're like, in the movie, time passes differently. You don't feel the passage of time. You end two hours and you were like, wow, that was amazing, right? And that truly is what life is. You get sucked into that physical experience, this avatar, and you believe that this is everything. You believe that this is your entire existence, when in reality, without the avatar, your. Your existence is so much more expansive, okay? And if you really understand the passage of time, this 76 years is a blip, okay? It really is insignificant. Remember, we are an insignificant drop on an insignificant planet in an insignificant galaxy in a massively endless universe. Okay? Even the known universe, not even the parts that we don't know, is endless. Okay? And you're living on it for 76 years, and yet you tell yourself that this is it. I can guarantee you this is not it. This is just one. Literally, you want to picture it? This is you going home in an afternoon, waiting for dinner, and deciding to play one level of a video game on a console.
- [71:03]
B
Yeah.
- [71:04]
A
Okay. You have a full life. Full life. And this is just one game on a console.
- [71:10]
B
Yeah. Bringing it back to why solitude is so powerful. What Henry said to me is that you don't meditate in order to get those experiences, but the more you meditate, the more likely it is that those experiences are going to be felt, you know, or some version of that, which sort of speaks to solitude. The more time you spend by yourself. We're not talking about loneliness here. We're talking about intentional solitudes. The more you start to tune into things, the more you start to feel things, the more you actually start to realize that actually there are multiple perspectives. One can take on the things that you see online, the way you perceive your life, everything. But you kind of need the time away. Because when you're constantly consuming and sucking in knowledge from everyone around you, it's very hard to get that.
- [72:11]
A
Yeah.
- [72:12]
B
So I love the idea of many silence retreats. Mo, listen, I am literally having to restrain myself.
- [72:20]
A
I know you want to go to a different topic. I advise everyone to watch the TED Talk of Jill Balti Taylor.
- [72:26]
B
How do you spell that?
- [72:27]
A
Jill.
- [72:28]
B
Jill. J, I, double L. Yeah.
- [72:29]
A
Balti Taylor. B, A, B, O, L, T, E. And Taylor, basically. And Jill had a. She's one of my favorite neuroscientists in the world. And she had a stroke, you know, where her left side of her brain was basically paralyzed, if you want. And she describes that exact experience in the TED Talk of the boundaries between her and everything would disappear. Okay? It is our mind that's creating that boundary between you and me. To navigate the physical universe, you need to believe in individualism, in that I am an entity and that table is not me. Okay? That you are different than me, that my safety can be benefiting or threatened by your existence, and so on and so forth. And if you really, you know, if you. Meditation, silence, long reflections, breathwork, basically enable you to switch that dominance of that mind that is creating the illusion of the movie theater. Right. So you suddenly realize, I'm not in a theater at all. I'm not in that movie. And you see the word very differently.
- [73:45]
B
Yeah, okay, we're gonna put a pin in those things because I know you're here to talk about AI and you're here to talk about. I don't even know how to describe Emma. I mean, who is Emma, Really? Hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free@drchatterjee.com now. If you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world covering all kinds of different topics. Happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change and movement, weight loss and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks and as audiobooks which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is is click the link in the Episode notes in your podcast app and always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more.