How To Reconnect With Your Intuition & Learn To Trust Yourself Again with Dr Tara Swart #604

Summary

Podcast Summary: Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee

Episode 604: How To Reconnect With Your Intuition & Learn To Trust Yourself Again with Dr Tara Swart
Release Date: December 17, 2025
Host: Dr Rangan Chatterjee
Guest: Dr Tara Swart – Neuroscientist, M.D., Executive Coach, Author of "The Signs"

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Episode Overview

In this raw and moving episode, Dr Rangan Chatterjee invites neuroscientist and author Dr Tara Swart back to his show to explore the science and personal experience behind intuition, hidden wisdom, and our ability to trust ourselves. The discussion is deeply personal, as Dr Swart opens up about losing her husband Robin and the journey through grief that reconnected her with her intuition. They delve into the new scientific understanding of intuition and trauma, practices for cultivating inner wisdom, the role of nature and creativity, and why so many of us are disconnected in the modern world. The conversation seamlessly weaves scientific insight, ancient wisdom, and practical tools for listeners seeking to rediscover their own inner guidance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Intuition and "Hidden Wisdom"

• Intuition as Hidden Wisdom (03:06):

  • Tara defines intuition as "hidden wisdom," a culmination of life experiences, patterns, and lessons embedded deep within our brain—and even our bodies.
  • New science suggests intuition and trauma can be stored not just in the brain but also in body tissues (via serotonin and the fascia).

    "You pick up life lessons and you lay down patterns... these patterns get pushed deeper and deeper into the brain... and even into the gut neurons." — Dr Tara Swart (03:06)

• Embodied Intuition:

  • The gut-brain axis explains why we sometimes “feel” intuition physically.
  • "The mind isn’t just in your brain – it’s embodied. It’s everywhere." — Dr Tara Swart (03:06)

2. Signs of Disconnection from Intuition

• Patterns and Overthinking (05:08):
  • Repeating the same mistakes, relying exclusively on logic, feeling anxious, or suffering “brain fog” can be signs you’ve lost touch with intuition.
  • Chronic stress not only makes it hard to access intuition, but a lack of access can lead to more stress and lack of purpose.

3. Reconnecting through Grief, Nature, and Ritual

• Tara’s Personal Story of Trust and Loss (06:30):
  • After her husband's death, Tara describes feeling cut off from intuition.
  • Healing came from seeking psychological safety, support from her community, and immersing herself in nature.
  • Ancient practices like art, dance, and ritual (beating chests, wailing) help process grief and reconnect mind and body.

4. The Limits of Science and the Value of Ancient Wisdom

• Science Catching Up to Tradition (08:32):
  • Dr. Chatterjee and Tara discuss whether new scientific hypotheses are really new, or if they're simply modern explanations of ancient knowledge.
  • Tara recounts opening herself up to “signs” after Robin died, first as a skeptic.

5. Receiving and Interpreting “Signs”

• What Are Signs? (11:25):

  • For Tara, signs began as robins (her husband’s name), and later mathematical patterns, reflecting Robin’s interests.
  • Signs provided comfort, guidance, happiness—even if one interprets them as heightened intuition rather than objective phenomena.

  • "At first it brought me comfort in the early days. Later it brought me guidance... and now it actually brings me happiness and it’s not harming me or anyone else." — Dr Tara Swart (13:48)

• Confirmation Bias or Something More?

  • They acknowledge skeptics might see this as “confirmation bias,” but Tara emphasizes intention in interpretation and the healing it brought.

6. Near Death Experiences, Collective Unconscious, and Awe

• Transformation through Near Death Experiences (21:09):

  • Researcher Bruce Greyson found that people who’ve had NDEs live with more freedom and less fear of failure.

  • "Simply by learning about [NDEs], you can get some of the same benefits people get from having had that experience themselves." — Dr Tara Swart (21:59)

• Jung’s Collective Unconscious (25:47):

  • Dr Swart cites Carl Jung: archetypes, shared human experience, and the idea that our shared unconscious contains more than just our individual minds.
  • "Meaningful coincidences," or synchronicities, might reflect a deeper connection among minds that science has yet to fully explain.

• Terminal Lucidity (28:02):

  • A phenomenon where people with irreversible brain damage become lucid before death, challenging materialist views of consciousness.

7. Modern Disconnection and the Healing Power of Nature

• Disconnection in the Modern World (36:41):

  • Disconnection from intuition, community, and nature are seen as primary factors in reduced wellbeing.
  • Nature is seen as a gateway to reconnect with all these elements.

• Personal Reflections from Rangan (38:45):

  • Rangan shares how walking in nature after his father's death was transformative and set him on a new life path.

8. Humans Have More Than Five Senses

• 34 Human Senses (42:41):
  • Tara’s research revealed at least 34 human senses (including immune sense, interoception, proprioception).
  • New senses are still being identified—highlighting how limited our conscious knowledge of our own bodies remains.

9. Intuition in Medicine: Stories from the Frontline

• Role in Clinical Practice (49:31):
  • Tara recounts a story as a junior doctor, where trusting her intuition over conventional wisdom resulted in a life-saving diagnosis.
  • Confidence and intuition often go hand-in-hand in professions like medicine.

10. Practical Tools to Cultivate Intuition

• Journaling for Intuition (57:39):

  • Tara recommends journaling about situations where logic and intuition conflict—then observing the outcomes over time to build self-trust.
  • “Unfurling Exercise”: Cycle through asking your head (logic), heart (emotion), and gut (intuition) about a dilemma, then journal the differences.

• Seven-Year Self Exercise (59:54):

  • Take on the perspective of your future self, asking them for advice to gain perspective.

• Creative Mentoring:

  • Imagine what advice trusted figures or admired individuals (real or historical) would give.

11. Embodiment, Trauma, and Movement

• Disembodiment Explained (63:23):

  • Many are now disembodied—dissociated from physical signals due to chronic stress and lack of movement.
  • Practices like yoga, dance, and art help reintegrate body and mind; visceral experiences (goosebumps, chills) remind us we’re physically reacting to our environments.

• Physicality and Trauma Release:

  • Creative and movement-based therapies help process trauma stored in the fascia more effectively than talk therapy alone (citing Bessel van der Kolk).

  • "But the combination [of cognitive and somatic approaches] is—that’s where the magic is." — Dr Tara Swart (74:13)

12. Parenting and Intuition

• How to Raise Intuitive Children (75:19):
  • Encourage children to express feelings, listen to their gut, and discuss what both heart and logic say.
  • Avoid ridiculing or dismissing their ‘gut feelings’.

13. Relating to Grief and Death

• Both hosts share how their relationships with loved ones who have died have evolved—sometimes seeing it as a continuing source of wisdom or even a “gift.”

  "I now frame my dad’s death as a gift to me." — Dr Rangan Chatterjee (79:59)

• Tara offers a practical exercise:

  • Think of a fond memory of a loved one, assign it a symbol, and ask for a sign—see what happens. (84:42)

14. The Big Takeaway: Go Back to Nature

• Nature as the Gateway (86:35):
  • For those feeling cut off from themselves and from intuition, Dr Swart’s simplest advice:

    "Time in nature ... that will give you the key to your inner wisdom." — Dr Tara Swart (86:35)

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Memorable Quotes

• On Intuition:

  "The thing that I believe in that’s greater is love. And that’s beautiful."
  — Dr Tara Swart (01:00 and 31:19)

• On Science and Spirituality:

  “It also made me question whether only things that can be proven scientifically are important as part of the human experience.”
  — (09:07, paraphrased by Dr Chatterjee)

• On Skepticism:

  "I’m a neuroscientist and medical doctor, but I’m a human being that’s been through a life-changing experience... there's a lot of stuff that we don’t know."
  — Dr Tara Swart (13:48)

• On Being Authentic:

  "The biggest risk of my life would have been not coming out with this story... for my life, for my soul, for my, you know, belief in love." — Dr Tara Swart (71:52)

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Notable Timestamps

• 03:06 — Dr Swart defines intuition and introduces concept of hidden wisdom
• 06:30 — The impact of grief, support, and nature after loss
• 11:25 — Receiving and interpreting “signs” from a lost loved one
• 21:09 — Near death experiences and psychological transformation
• 25:47 — The collective unconscious and terminal lucidity
• 36:41 — Why modern life disconnects us, and how nature heals
• 42:41 — The 34 senses of humans
• 49:31 — The importance of intuition in medicine
• 57:39 — Journaling and practical tools to develop intuition
• 63:23 — Disembodiment and why somatic practices matter
• 74:13 — Why healing requires both body and mind
• 75:19 — Practical advice for raising intuitive children
• 84:42 — Tara’s exercise: pick a symbol and ask for a sign
• 86:35 — Final advice: walk in nature to find your wisdom

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Actionable Takeaways

• If you’re struggling to trust yourself or feel disconnected:

  • Spend uninterrupted time in nature—alone, without distractions.
  • Journal about decisions where logic and intuition diverge.
  • Try practical exercises like the “unfurling” (head-heart-gut) and consult your “seven-year future self.”
  • Move your body—dance, walk, practice yoga.
  • Try connecting with symbols or “signs” from loved ones.

• For parents:

  • Encourage children to listen to both logic and feelings. Don’t dismiss or ridicule their instincts.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers scientific, practical, and deeply personal insights into what it means to be human, the importance of reconnecting with our intuition, and the healing potential of embracing both ancient wisdom and modern understanding. Dr Tara Swart’s vulnerability and clarity demystify intuition and provide real steps for rediscovering our inner compass, with nature as the most reliable guide.

Transcript

[Dr. Tara Swart]

85% of people in the world have a religious belief. As you were speaking, I was thinking, what's the thing that I believe in that's greater? It's love. And it's making me quite upset, but you've really just made it land for me that all of this. The thing that I believe in that's greater is love. And that's beautiful.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Hey guys, how are you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better Live More what exactly is intuition? What happens when we die? And how does trauma get stored in our bodies? Well, these are just a few of the fascinating themes that I explore in today's episode with returning guest Dr. Tara Swarthy. Tara is a neuroscientist, a former medical doctor and psychiatrist, a lecturer at mit, an executive coach, and author of two books, including her very latest, the The New Science of How to Trust yout Instincts. In today's episode, Tara shares her own personal story about love, loss, and learning to trust herself again. After the death of of her husband Robin. This life changing experience left her questioning her deepest beliefs as a scientist when in the midst of her grief, she started noticing unusual signs that she felt she was unable to ignore. At first she was skeptical, but these moments gradually helped her reconnect with her intuition in ways she never expected. In our conversation, we explore what intuition really is, why so many of us feel cut off from it, and crucially, what practical steps you can take to start accessing your own. We also talk about the disconnection that many of us feel in the modern world, the transformative and healing power of nature, and the many different ways in which humans try to make sense of death. This is a raw, honest and thought provoking conversation that I'm certain will leave you feeling inspired and eager to rediscover your own inner wisdom. It's pretty clear that modern life is disconnecting us from so many truly important things. One of the things that's disconnected us from is our intuition. So I want us to start off by asking you what is intuition? And what are some signs that we can look out for in our own life that might indicate we're disconnected from our own?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Okay, so intuition. I've come to call it hidden wisdom because you can't recall everything you've experienced in your life. But you pick up life lessons and you lay down patterns of behavior and pattern recognition from those memories that you're not sort of conscious of. And I think I would have said to you before that through the process called Hebbian learning, these patterns get pushed deeper and deeper into the brain, into the limbic system, the brain stem, the spinal cord, and even into the gut neurons. And that's why it's often called gut instinct. Right. But there's new evidence through the serotonin hypothesis that shows that trauma doesn't only exist in the PTSD circuits of the brain. Through the action of serotonin, your blood products, your plasma and your blood, the capillaries, are constricted or dilated by the serotonin, and that changes the nature of nutrients and oxygen going into the tissues of your muscles, your fascia. And so the hypothesis says that that's one way that trauma is stored in the body. You know, Bessel, van der Kolk's work, the body keeps a score. So the new hypothesis is that hidden wisdom or intuition is also stored in patterns that are held in the tissues of your body. So it's a bit like saying, you know, your mind isn't just in your brain, it's embodied. It's everywhere. And, for example, if you practice yoga, you would understand that really well. So, yeah, just like trauma can be stored in the body, intuition can be stored in the mind, the brain, and the body.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

And in terms of the things that we can look out for in our own life, that might indicate we're not accessing our intuition as much as we might want to. Are there any things that we can look out for to go, actually, I struggle to make a decision. I'm constantly stressed or whatever it might be. What would you say are signs that people can use themselves to try and figure that out?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

So I think there's a few ways I could approach this. One is if you keep repeating the same kind of patterns in your decision making and your behavior, in your relationship dynamics, then you're probably not evolving your intuition and learning from potential mistakes. I think another thing, because I talked about yoga being the union of the mind and the body, is that we're very cut off at the neck, and we very much separate our mind and our body. So if you're overthinking, if you're anxious, if you're very, you know, rigid in your thinking, if you rely way too much on logic and rationality when it, you know, feels wrong in your gut kind of thing, I think those are really good signs. And you mentioned stress. So, of course, because of the gut brain connection, if our gut microbiome isn't in good condition, that can actually cloud access to our intuition. And lead to what's called brain fog. And that's like a. A two way thing.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. When I think about stress and I think about intuition, I think about a relationship that perhaps goes both ways. So when you're chronically stressed, of course, it's very hard to look inwards and access that deep wisdom. And at the same time, if you're not accessing your inner wisdom enough, it's probably going to lead to more stress in your life.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

I think it leads to, like a lack of direction and sense of purpose. So, for example, I always kind of prided myself on my intuition, and I would make my biggest life decisions based on my intuition. But up until a few years ago, that was still very much something that I thought was only in my head. It was only after my husband passed away that I really felt like I couldn't trust myself. I couldn't trust my decision making. I didn't have access to that voice anymore that I had to find like a different way of operating. And, you know, the first thing that it wasn't a choice, it just happened is that, you know, I'm very lucky with the amount of support I have. So I got the psychological safety that I needed from my community. But I started spending a lot of time in nature. And I believe that that's the way I reconnected with my intuition and realized that it's not just a mental thing, it's a physical thing too. So any kind of physical activity, like walking, yoga, and you know how I love to go back to ancient wisdom about everything. I was literally googling things like how did humans rely on their instincts in Paleolithic times? And is art what makes us human? So I enjoyed that part of the research. And so our ancestors, they didn't have spare resources for doing things for fun. They had to use all of their resources for survival. So basically, food, shelter, and reproduction. So why did they drum, dance, hum, make cave paintings? There must be something about that that's crucial to our survival. And in some ancient cultures, like in ancient Greeks, when they bury their dead, they wail and beat their chests. So I'm assuming that's actually a good way of dealing with grief, because one of the things I realized as well with grief is I had amazing talking therapy. But it's only when I started having body realignment therapy and craniosacral therapy that it accelerated my healing.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah, it's so interesting you mentioned ancient wisdom. And earlier on, right at the start of this conversation, you said the new hypothesis is. And I thought, okay, I'm going to come back to that because is it truly a new hypothesis or is science just trying its very best to explain what all of our ancestors have known for tens of thousands of years?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

I can just give a one word answer to that.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I mean, what's your take on how I frame that? Because there's some beautiful things in the start of the book. This point really deeply, deeply resonates with me and how I see the world you put here. It also made me question whether only things that can be proven scientifically are important as part of the human experience.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah, well, that's giving me goosebumps because I'll tell you where that came from. So within the first couple of weeks of Robin dying, I had a neighbor who's. Who had lost his partner five years previously. And we didn't really talk about it much, but obviously I was searching. So I said, is it okay to ask you something about, you know, death and grief? And he said, sure. And I said, do you think it's possible to get communication with them after they've passed? And he got quite agitated and said, absolutely not. And then said, if it were, everyone would be talking about it. And I think even though I was in acute grief at the time, I remember thinking, well, I can't accept that it's not possible just because everyone's not talking about it. That doesn't make sense to me. And so then I mentioned it to a few people. And everyone that I spoke to had some kind of experience of sensing a presence or, you know, receiving a sign from a lost loved one. So I just thought that was interesting at first. And then as I went on my journey of receiving signs, I was able to step back as a neuroscientist and kind of watch what was happening to me and thinking, this is quite interesting, I wonder if I'll find something that could actually help other people. Because I had no intention of ever sharing my private story. It was only if I felt like I learned something with the benefit of hindsight that could help. And then, of course, what has happened is because I'm known for being a scientist and a doctor, and it's such a human and primal experience and, you know, questioning the nature of life, death and birth, that it's had this phenomenal reaction.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. Just for people who've perhaps not heard some of those other conversations, when you say signs, can you just elaborate what you mean when you say you've been asking for signs?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. So my husband's name was Robin. But for many people, seeing a robin is often a sign from a lost loved one. White feathers, repeating numbers, different things for different people. But I basically, out of desperation, consulted a couple of mediums after my husband died, and I was very skeptical. And anything that I thought could have been researched on the Internet or social media, I was sort of. I wouldn't give them the credit for. But then it just occurred to me that if it's possible to have, you know, open this channel of communication with someone that's passed away, that I should be able to do it myself because this was my person and because I had a few friends who said that they'd received signs from lost loved ones. I obviously wanted to receive signs. And at first, you know, I think I was overthinking it and I was, you know, just hoping for things and looking, but, you know, not really getting them. I did see a lot of Robbins, and then there was just a point where I realized that it would make sense for him to communicate with me through numbers because he wrote a. Like a mathematical report, and he was very, very obsessed with the Fibonacci sequence. So then the sorts of, you know, number signs that I would get became more frequent, more timely, more exact. And now I don't ask for specific things anymore. I just. I notice things. And I think, oh, that was from him.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

If I just zoom out for a moment, Tara, we're talking about you being able to communicate or receive communication from your husband, Robin, who has died. So there's gonna be some people I imagine listening going, wait a minute, hold on. Like, you've got a medical degree, you've got a neuroscience degree, you know how the brain works. And you're also trying to tell me that you are getting signs from your husband.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

For the skeptic who's listening, what would you say to them?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

That even though I'm a neuroscientist and medical doctor, I'm a human being that's been through a life changing experience that I obviously needed to make sense of, and I wanted to fully heal and not feel bitter and, you know, sort of let grief rule the rest of my life. And like I said, I did step back as a neuroscientist and watch the journey that I went on. But the number of stories I have, many of which are in the book, it's too much for me to explain away by coincidence. And there's a lot of stuff that we don't know. Again, the ancient civilizations believed in souls or the afterlife, or reincarnation and ancestor Worship and communication from their ancestors and things. So I think I was just like, why not try this and see what happens and see if it makes sense for you. And at first it brought me comfort in the early days. Later it brought me guidance. But you could say that was me accessing my own intuition. And that's okay too. And now it actually brings me happiness and it's not harming me or anyone else. And in fact, I've been overwhelmed by how much it's helped so many people that of course there'll be skeptics and that's fine. It was a huge risk for me to write this book and go out on podcasts and say that I received signs from my dead husband and I am a risk taker. That's one of the things he said he liked about me. But I'm. I was so, like, so not worried about putting this book out there because I'm so connected to myself and I trust myself and my instincts and my intuition so much that I just. I just did it. And I thought, you know, it could have had a really bad response, but it's been like, more than I could have dreamed.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

In a good way.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

There's a key point there for me which even goes beyond the message. In this book, you said that because you're so connected to yourself and your desires and who you are and how you want to live, the response to the book actually doesn't matter. And I get that more than you could possibly believe. Right. It's a realization I've come to over the last few years. It's okay if people think differently to me.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

There's 8 billion people on the planet. How arrogant would it be of me to believe that everyone else on the planet is gonna see the world in the same way as me? It's like, no, no. Okay, cool. You see it differently. No problem.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Totally. I mean, I actually got a message, an open comment on my Instagram the other day from someone saying, I used to really respect her cause she's a doctor, but I think this road that she's gone down is. I think they used the word quack or something like that and said, I'm now nervously watching her career. And I mean, I literally laughed out loud. I'm like, I'm not nervous about my career at all.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

And it's quite interested to demonstrate that going forward.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

If I think about the message in this book and then I try and compare it or draw parallels with the message in the Source, which came out pre Covid. What, 2018 20, 19. 2019. I guess one of the key messages you've been talking about for years, which you also write about in the science, is this idea that the brain. There's so many inputs around us all the time, Right. So our brain has to filter out. Like, we couldn't possibly be aware of everything that's going on around us. We'd just be overwhelmed. Right. So if we practice what we want our brain to focus on, we're gonna start seeing that more. You've come on the show many times before and spoken about why you're a big fan of journaling and a practice of gratitude. You know, focus on the good that say, you're gonna start to see more good. Focus on the negatives. You're gonna see negatives everywhere. Right. But that, of course, as you've also acknowledged when you say confirmation bias, could be what people are also not skeptically saying, but saying, yeah, okay, Tara, but if you now are putting your attention on looking for robins, just as when you, you know. You know, just as when you look for the red car in the garage and you pump, quite suddenly, you're seeing red cars everywhere because you've primed that part of the brain to start looking for that. If, of course, your husband's called Robin, and robins are the symbol that many people say are, you know, when someone's not here, that they come and see you as robins. I guess some people will think that, won't they? They will think that, yeah. But if now you're putting your attention and looking for robins, you weren't doing that before Robin died, so perhaps now you just. You're naturally going to see more robins because that's where you're putting your attention.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah, someone did make a comment like that, and it's actually not true because I was always fond of Robbins because of his name. So it's, you know, if they're there, you'll see them. But I've literally got. My friend Massimiliano said to me the other day, I distinctly remember that last time we were together, sitting at an. You know, outdoors at a restaurant, and a robin flew right under our table whilst we were speaking. I mean, that Robin's not meant to be there, but I'm not saying. Well, for a while at the time that he died, I did see a lot of robins, both in London and the countryside. But I've noticed them before, and now I think I see them a normal amount. But I think probably an important point to make here is that this journey Took me to a point where I had a choice at one point to really go down a rabbit hole and become kind of obsessed with this. But I made the decision to think this is enough. I've had the comfort and the guidance and the joy that I needed to get through these few years. The real gift that my husband has given me is to re engage with life, to start working again, to write this book, to spend time with the people that I love, to start traveling again. Because, you know, for a while I was like, well, I'm on my own, so I can't travel, you know, getting over things like that. So that's where. That's where I'm really at. Which is that it's given me in a similar way to how near death experiences often do. It's given me such an appreciation for life. I'm so grateful that I'm alive, that I'm healthy. That's not to be taken for granted. And that, you know, whether it's as a scientist or an author or whatever it is that I have something to offer and I want to try and help people. So.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah, yeah. You mentioned near death experiences there and you reference, I think. Is it Bruce Grayson in the book, the doctor who's spent years actually researching them and documenting them. Yeah. It's incredible. And I think you shared some of his research in the book where he basically was saying that. And this is where whether you believe in near death experiences or not, it doesn't really matter because he's saying that people who've had near death experiences, they live their life with a sense of freedom and calm and they're happy to take risks. They're not as scared to fail anymore because they see the world. Definitely their perception has changed.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

And would you say that that's what these signs have done for you? It's changed the way you relate to life?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

It absolutely has. And I think what's really interesting about near death experiences is that simply by learning about them, you can get some of the same benefits that people get from having had that experience themselves. And that's a big part of the reason I wanted to write the book. That if it's just the stories of other people that I've shared in the book or my own story that people read or listen to and that helps them to see the world maybe from a slightly different perspective, maybe, you know, notice and appreciate beauty and nature more, connect more with people, then Absolutely. Yeah. That's how I feel and how I would love people to feel.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

I really like the chapter on community and tribes towards the end of the book and I'd love to talk a little bit about that. There's so many elements you cover in that one thing you write about is the collective unconscious. What is the collective unconscious and how does it relate to what we're talking about? Are you looking for the perfect gift this festive season? Then look no further than Woop. Now. Whoop is the only wearable that turns your health and fitness data into into personalized guidance designed to be worn 24 7. No screens means no distractions and with over 14 days of battery life you will never miss a beat. Now I personally have been wearing a WHOOP band for over a year now and it has had a transformative effect on my health and well being. So whether you're looking for something for that special someone in your life or you want to treat yourself to a life changing gift this festive season, a WHOOP membership is the perfect gift for all. All you have to do is go to join.whoop.comlivemore to get up to 10% off all memberships until December 19th. That's join.whoop.comlive. more today's show is sponsored by Boncharge. I have been using Boncharge wellness products for over five years. From blue light glasses to red light therapy, Boncharge make it really easy to get healthy while staying at home. Now one of my current favorites is their Demi Red Light Therapy device. There are just so many studies now showing the potential benefits of red light therapy including better eye health, pain relief, reduced inflammation, enhanced recovery, improved sleep and even better skin. In fact, when it comes to skin, I have many friends and family members who absolutely love the Bon Charge Red Light Face Mask. Super light and portable and after using it for just 10 minutes a day are reporting more radiant and glowing skin. So if you're looking to take charge of your health at home, I would highly recommend you check out Bond Charge. It's currently the Bond Charge Holiday sale so you can save an incredible 25% off everything on their website. Just head to boncharge.com and your 25% off code will be automatically added to your order. This sale will end on 31st December 2025, so hurry and don't miss this massive chance to save big on your favorite Bon Charge products.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

So this is Carl Jung, the psychologist's sort of theory about the fact that since the beginning of humanity there are some shared constructs that we will all experience, namely birth, life and death. And because of that that there are Inherited brain structures and genes that we all have the same type of. And that that potentially means that there's a sort of cosmic soup or force, you know, where things that we're all aware of exist and that, you know, we all have, we're all tapped into that in a way. And he created archetypes to try to explain that. So, I mean, I think he was completely visionary. You know, he talked about synchronicities as meaningful coincidences. And these are just some of the conversations that I'm sort of trying to start up again and revisit. And maybe now that science has progressed so much, there might be other ways of looking at that. And at the moment, the research on near death experiences, terminal lucidity, and dark retreats are the closest that we can get to that. So I think as a doctor, terminal lucidity is super interesting. That's basically when somebody whose brain is irreversibly damaged, as far as we understand it and modern science are like, dementia is a classic example, suddenly becomes completely lucid towards the end of their life. So it goes from not recognizing their own children to having a completely like they used to before. Conversation with their children usually means the person's about to pass away. There are theories that say, you know, is this a surge of neurotransmitters? But the circuitry in the brain isn't supposed to be working at that time. So we don't know. Um, but things like that and near death experiences show that when the brain is under duress, like at the border of life and death, that the mind or psyche or soul potentially can operate independently of physical matter. And that's also connected to the collective unconscious.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

I mean, it's, it's amazing when you, you hear about something like terminal lucidity. And, you know, we know those cases and we put it through the lens of many things we've been talking about today. This idea that, you know, the brain's not working anymore. You know, we can give you all these mechanisms. You know, there's a beta amyloid is accumulating, there's tau protein there. You know, we can tell you why someone's brain, or we can give a version of why we think someone's brain is not working. And suddenly it seems to spark on. I would hope that that engenders a feeling of awe in most people. For me, I hear that go, wow, what's actually going on there?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. And, you know, if it's not provoking your curiosity, then I guess the alternative is that all that you see materially is what life is and that. And you just go through that life. I don't want to live like that.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

No. And I think that's one of the reasons why people struggle with death so much, I think at least is if your life is just what you think it is, right? And you're here, you're this body, all you're concerned about is how do you get ahead in life? How do you make enough money and then you suddenly die. It is hard to make sense of to. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of interesting. I'm drawn back to.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

And it's sad.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

And it's sad. I'm drawn back to a conversation I had with Bronnie Ware a few years ago, the palliative care nurse who wrote the book Five Regrets of the Dying. And in that conversation, I asked her, because she goes through the five regrets and we go through what they can all signify and how we can use those regrets to help us change the way that we live today. I said, hey, Bonnie, does everyone on their deathbed have those regrets? Oh, she said, no, no, not at all. I said, oh, did you see any similarities in the people who you cared for who did not have those regrets on their deathbed? She said, yeah, I did. One of the things, there were three things that she noted, but one of the things was a belief in something greater than themselves. Oh, isn't that interesting?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Because what is it we want out of life? Right. Whether we can explain it or not, I think most of us want a sort of happy, meaningful life where at the end we're not sitting there like, wishing things were different, wishing we'd done something different. So tying that back to what you're talking about, if someone has a near death experience and whether you believe it or not, and they use that to live feeling that they're connected to something greater, why does it matter if you believe? And I'm to be. Just to be clear, I'm not at all being skeptical here, right? No, I'm just saying for the listener, if you believe that, actually you're able to get signs from your husband and it's helping you believe in something greater and helps you make sense of his death and your existence, why does it matter that?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

And also, as you said that, I was thinking for a lot of people, that belief in something greater is God, right?

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

85% of people in the world have a religious belief. As you were speaking, I was thinking, what's the thing that I believe in that's greater? It's not actually signs, is it? It's love. And it's making me quite upset. But, you know, if. If that means that I believe that the love that my husband had for me never dies, and I love the people who are in my life and I. You know, I've always said that I want to live a life that's guided by love and. But you've really just made it land for me that all of this. The thing that I believe in that's greater is love. And that's beautiful.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yes.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

This.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Collective unconscious. I think there's many ways that I think about it. So. I love music. I've been a musician my entire life. I'm obsessed with music and songwriting and lyrics and all kinds of things. And some of the best songwriters of all time will tell you that these are not my songs. The songs came through me. The songs were out there. I was just playing and it came through me, even. I'm pretty sure. I mean, you know, we just had the summer of Oasis in the UK and around the world, right? So Noel Gallagher is regarded by many people as one of Britain's greatest songwriters. Back in the late 90s, when Noel was writing hit after hit for Oasis, so much so that they would just shove out these amazing hits like Acquiesce and the Mastermind on B sides, because, well, we've released the album. They just. He, you know, he said in interviews that they were just falling out the sky. I wasn't doing anything. The songs were just falling out the sky. And look, I don't know Noel Gallagher, I don't know if he's spiritual or not. I guess a lot of people would perceive that perhaps he's not, but perhaps he is. Perhaps he never talks about it in those terms. But if you believe that, actually, these are not my songs. I'm just here playing my guitar. I'm showing up every day, and there's stuff out there that's coming through me. It's pretty interesting, isn't it?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah, very, very. And I mean, this is really going out there now, but I have had some times. I just. I'll give you a concrete example of watching myself on a podcast that I was on where I wasn't thinking about what I was saying. It was just. You know, I'm even cautious about using the word channeling, but that's what it felt like. So. Yeah, And I just think that's because I've got an expanded openness to what, you know, what could be, how. How the mind can work. So I'm more able to use that word or think about it in that way. But I can tell you for sure, there have been times on podcasts when what I was saying was happening without me thinking about it.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. This idea that there are ideas out there in the ether which suddenly I'll start talking about A podcaster in Canada will start talking about a podcaster in. It's like we don't all read the same books. We don't all consume the same material. There's something going on.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

I don't know. This podcast, literally, you've come in today talking about this stuff. Four days ago, Mo Gaudut was here. Mo. I didn't plan to talk to Mo about this.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

No.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Mo ends up saying that you can prove with physics and maths that death is not the end. I know. I mean, I was like, well, I actually don't believe death is the end, but I don't know how to prove it with maths and physics. And then literally a few weeks before that, I spoke to the Zen master Henry Schuchman about non duality for the very first time on the show. I'm like, so literally in the last few weeks, I'm not saying this is the collective unconscious, but something's happening when people are rocking up in this studio and we're talking about similar themes.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

So I think there is a zeitgeist around this topic at the moment. And my publishers actually said that there are a few other books on similar themes that are coming out this autumn as well. And Laura Lynn Jackson, the medium who wrote the book Signs, I love her work and that book and have always felt it should have got much greater recognition than it did. Well, finally, after years, this summer, it reached the New York Times bestseller list.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Wow. Yeah. I started off this conversation by asking you, or by stating that the modern world seems to have disconnected us in many ways from so many things that are truly important. One of those things, of course, being intuition. What is it, do you think about the modern world in particular, that has started to disconnect us from ourselves?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Let me start by saying what I think some of those forms of connection are. I think of them as connection to yourself, which is your intuition, connection to others, which is community, and connection to the planet or the universe, which is, you know, something to do with understanding that the environment is very important and that we are, you know, contributors to that both positively and negatively. And then probably, you know, sort of newer thing for me to say is connection to something greater. And that could be God, it could be the universe source Whatever, you know, lost loved ones, whatever, you know, people believe in. And so one of the things I believe is that nature is a really important way to connect back to all of those things, because humans have existed in the palette of nature for all time. And we see in some marginalized communities, like in the first Americans, that when they were displaced from their land and their food sources, like the kinds of plants and animals that roamed there, that broke them as people. And in the modern world, I think we've massively broken our own connection to nature. So, like you said, the modern Western world, urbanized, rise of technology, obviously, but, you know, that's really second only to the rise of the importance of logic and rationality over everything else. When you spend a lot of time in nature and you experience wonder and awe, it gives you a connection to the environment, the planet. There's something greater. You know, when you spend time with people and you actually put your phone away and you actually look them in the eye and they care about you and you care about them, that connects you to something. And then I think this loss of sense of purpose to me, is connected to trusting yourself and your intuition. So having a purpose, feeling like you've got some kind of direction that you're aware of, and for that purpose to be something that transcends just yourself as well, they're all ways of reconnecting.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. Reading that chapter on nature in your latest book, you were describing how after Robin had died, you would go and walk in nature. Okay. And I think from recollection, you would build up the time that you spent. Initially, it was you didn't want to do anything, you didn't want to do much, but you started and then you built up. And just to be clear, I'm absolutely not comparing a spouse dying to a parent dying. I think two completely different things. But just as you were talking there and relating it to purpose, I was drawn back to my own experience after my father died back in 2013, because until then, I'd never really turned inwards. Everything was outwards in my life. And I remember in the months after dad had died, I would go walking really a lot in nature. I probably wasn't thinking about intuition or anything. I was just trying to deal with something I was finding incredibly difficult at the time. And what's really interesting is dad dying for me was the very first time I asked myself the question, whose life are you actually living? And, I mean, I could give you a two hour sort of explanation or the simplistic explanation, which is, I'm pretty sure that what I do today in terms of this podcast, my books, what I try and advocate for in terms of health and happiness, I think you can directly relate, certainly with hindsight, back to those walks in nature I took after dad died where which gave me the clarity for me to start following my heart.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah, yeah. I got goosebumps whilst you were saying that. And isn't it so it's interesting. Obviously our instincts were working cause they drew us both to nature.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. What did it do for you, those walks in nature?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Well, like you said at first I would do a 30 minute walk. Cause I thought that's like good enough for your physical health. And then because I sort of thought, well, I don't really have that much else to do, I could walk for longer. I very quickly noticed that it made an impact on my mental health. And interestingly for me, because I was then living somewhere very remote. So generally I would stick to paths that I knew because I've got a really, really bad sense of direction. And in that place I could walk for an hour or more and not pass anyone that could help me, you know, to point me in the right direction. But I started going down paths that I'd never been down before. And that felt like some kind of analogy for me in my brain of the neuroplasticity of navigating grief. And I remember thinking, I hope I don't get lost. But then just having this deep sense of knowing that either someone was guiding me or I, I had been in this place before, like in a spiritual sense and that I would find my way. So I think, but I think that that was really about me finding my way in life, not, not getting lost in the woods kind of thing. And just on that point I wanted to say that I started just looking at trees and leaves and fields and views and just being just gobsmacked by how stunning they were. So I think I started noticing more than sometimes you just go for a walk and you don't really, you know, you're a bit head down. So that would have been stimulating my senses in many ways.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. So there's a section in the book where you talk about the fact that humans have more than five senses.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

So obviously because you and I have been to medical school, we knew that there were more than five senses, but I didn't know there were 34. When I started doing the research for the book, I first found a journal paper that said humans have 22 to 33 senses. And then I did a full literature review and There's a table in the book of the 34. So, for example, taste is actually subdivided into five. So sweet, sour, salty, bitter, and umami. But umami was only discovered in the 1980s, so it's our knowledge of them that's growing and evolving. And the latest one that's actually been classified physiologically as a sense is the immune system. So, you know, and there's appetite and waste senses, there's balance, all sorts of others I'm sure will absolutely make sense when people read them. But they're not things that we consciously go around, you know, thinking about and therefore probably not tapping into this idea.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

That we have 34 senses. I guess when I hear that, and I'm sure you would agree with this, it's like what we're saying is that so far we have words to describe 34. It may be then in a hundred years, we've got words to describe 100 senses. So it's fascinating, isn't it?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. Yeah. And you're just. The way that you put that made me think, taking Umami, for example, in the 1980s, before that was discovered, does that mean it didn't exist? Yeah, I mean, there's so much stuff like that. You were saying about being in LA with our mutual friend Drew. Well, I went in a driverless car with him. I mean, that was science fiction when we were growing up. So there's all sorts of things that we didn't know before that we know now. So why can't we accept that things that we don't know yet might be true?

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. Why do you think that is? Why do humans struggle to accept that?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Sort of started saying to a few people, have you ever thought about a day in the life of Homo erectus or what he, like, you know, thought or cared about or believed about how the world worked? I feel like we're so arrogant to think that we are the most evolved and the last type of human that's ever going to exist. We, too, are just going to be a blip in history at some point. I don't know if it's a survival mechanism. I'd love to hear your theory on it. I just think there's a level of just thinking that we're the latest and greatest and we know more than all other humans that have existed before.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about this too. Right. I'm currently just writing a new section for my. Not my last, but the book before Happy Mind, Happy Life, which is coming out in a new format in January. So I'M just writing a new section for it, updating my views on it. And one thing I've been writing about is, you know, in that book there are these three ingredients to happiness. Alignment, contentment and control. And I think what you're talking about and what we're talking about at the moment is to do with our need for a sense of control. So I think fundamentally the world is uncontrollable. Okay. So the world is gonna do what the world is gonna do, despite what you might want it to do. But I think humans tend to feel better when they have a sense of control. And it's interesting talking to a fellow doctor about this stuff. Right. I know you don't practice anymore and you moved to neuroscientists and coaching and writing and all that kind of stuff, but you practice for many years. Right. And I feel within our profession and frankly within the public, you could say there's open minded people and closed minded people. I would say much, not all, but much of our profession can come across as being closed minded.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah, I agree.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Which is why so many patients get frustrated that they know something, that they're feeling a certain way. They come in and the doctor will often try and put them into a box that they learn to medically, which pigeonhole does this patient's symptoms fall into? And if they don't, if you can't quite put that collection of synthesis into this diagnosis or that diagnosis, I think a lot of doctors, particularly if people are junior, they don't know what to do with that, so they try and force it in. And the patient's thinking, that doesn't make sense to me. I don't have depression. So I think some of it comes down to a human's need for certainty and a sense of control.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

I agree. And I think there's sort of an additional danger, particularly in the medical profession of having to be right all the time. Again, when I was doing research for the book, I was reading a little bit about the biopsychosocial model for healthcare. And interestingly, in the last 10 years or so there has been some research talking about the biopsychosocial spiritual model, particularly for care of the elderly and end of life. And, and that obviously shows a more holistic view of someone's beliefs and, you know, life. So I'm glad to see that's theoretically happening, but I don't feel like it's actually happening in the healthcare system. That spiritual element. Yeah, it's, it's like I said, I think it's quite dangerous when you feel like you have to be right all the time and that's actually what's driving your decisions.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Well, that need to be right, whether it's in your profession or in your relationships, it doesn't do you any good. It's a very fragile place to be in. You have written about near death experiences quite a lot in the Signs, which is super fascinating. I'm really interested. What has the feedback been? Yes, from the public, but also from healthcare professionals.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah, it's really interesting. So I really, I had no idea of how much this would help people. And interestingly, I have received DMs from doctors and clinical psychologists and psychotherapists as well, saying that they have similar beliefs to me, but they don't talk about it because it's not accepted, you know, in those sorts of communities.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah, let's just give us intuition a minute. Right. Because we've sort of, we started there, we've gone down a few different paths, which is great. How much do you think intuition plays a role in a doctor's ability to help their patients heal?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Oh, I think it's massive. And like I said, I've been intuitive for a long time, but quite early on in my career I would have gut feelings that something wasn't what it looked like. I'll give you one example. I was in my second job, so I'd done my surgery six months, I was in medicine in London and a guy came in overnight and the A and E registrar said that he was having a heart attack and he should get treated for that. I had struggled so much to read ECGs that show that someone's having a pulmonary embolism. But I looked at this ECG and I was like, I don't think he's having a heart attack, I think he's having a pe and so we should send him for a scan. And they said, if you ask for a scan at this time of night, you can wake up the consultant. So I thought, I think I have to. So I called my consultant and said, I want to send this guy for a chest ct. But the A and E registrar is saying that unless you give permission, they're not going to wake up the radiologist. So he said, yes, go and send him for the scan. So I then went to bed and when I woke up for wardround in the morning, I was like, what happened about that guy that, you know, I had to call you up about for the scan? And my consultant went, let me tell you the story of the junior doctor who correctly diagnosed A man that the A and E registrar had misdiagnosed.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. Well done.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. And actually, after that, I knew I wanted to do psychiatry, but my registrar sort of said, please, please consider staying in medicine. Because I, you know. Well, he said something like, cause, you know, you're so good at it, or something like that. And I was like, look, I want to go and do psychiatry, but I also want to know why. Why you're saying this to me. And he said, your judgment is. Is really, really good. And for me, that's intuition. It's. It's. Of course, it's everything that we learned, and it's experience, but I feel like I. I've always had that radar for, like, something that might not make sense on paper.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. When you were relaying that story, you said. I think he said something like, I'm really intuitive. Which got me thinking, are we not all really intuitive if we don't allow other things to get in the way?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yes. So I think the correct way to have said. What I meant was I rely on my intuition very strongly, and I trust it. And so I've had, you know, that comment from my registrar, but also my first husband. My first husband really trusted my intuition, too. And we were the same age, both doctors, so, you know, I don't know why, particularly if I said, that's our destiny, he was fine with it. But that obviously gave me confidence as well. You know, a lot of my friends will say things like, follow your heart, follow your gut. You know, So I think I've had a good experience of trusting that and taking the chance when logic and intuition didn't match up and saying, I'm gonna go with my intuition and see what happens. But for me also, you know, another part of that is saying, what happens? I will roll my sleeves up and I will make it work. So that also helps you to trust your intuition, because the. The what if it goes wrong? Question is, is the reason that will hold a lot of people back from that.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. It's kind of interesting hearing that we're talking about intuition, but there's also a inner confidence that's there. You had the inner confidence to back yourself right when things around you were telling you not to. So we've covered a lot of areas so far. You know, what intuition is, why we're disconnected from it, how it can be so helpful for us. But it's all under this wider umbrella of the hidden wisdom that exists that we're not accessing.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yes.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

So if someone was to phone you or come to see you as a coach, TARA and say, Dr. Swart, listen, I'm really struggling to trust myself. I don't know how to. I don't know how to access my intuition. Will you teach me how I can start? What do you say to them? The mental wellness app Calm are sponsoring today's show. Do you ever feel like the year is flying by way too fast and that you are always behind and trying to play catch up? Well, calm gives you permission to slow down even when everything else around you is speeding up. Now, for me, in my own life, it is absolutely essential to take time out each day to focus on myself. When I take that time, I'm simply a different person. I'm more present, more calm and more focused. And when I don't take that time, it's pretty much the opposite. Now, calm can help you take time for yourself every single day so you can rest, recuperate and recharge. If you're feeling like you could use some support navigating life's ups and downs, get the relief you need with calm sessions like guided meditations to help you work through anxiety and stress, boost your focus and build healthier habits. Sleep stories, sleep meditations and calming music, which can help you drift off to restful sleep quickly and naturally. Or grounding exercises to help you reset and relax when you're feeling overwhelmed. Calm has an exclusive offer just for listeners of my show. Get 40% off a Calm Premium subscription at calm.com livemore this is amazing value. All you have to do is go to Calm Down LiveMore for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's calm.comforward/livemore. This episode is sponsored by Thriver, the personalized blood testing service that helps you listen to your blood. If you're a regular listener and have heard my previous episodes with people like Dr. Peter Attia and Dr. Mark Hyman, you will know that regular blood testing can be a brilliant tool to help you take a more proactive and preventative approach to your health. And for me, I use Thriver to help me do this. Thriver make the process really simple and stress free. You just take a test at home with a painless device, post it back, and a few days later your results are ready in the app. And what's more, Thriver's doctors give you personalized, actionable guidance so you know exactly what to focus focus on. What's new is that you can now compare your results against other Thriver users so you can see how you compare to what's typical for Someone like you. By retesting every few months, you can build up a clear picture of what's working and where to adjust. From cardiovascular health to hormones and metabolism. Thriver helps you optimize now and for the future. And you may be interested to know that Thriver do a specific test to check your APO B levels, which give you a much more accurate idea of your heart disease risk compared to standard cholesterol tests. Listeners in my show can get 20% off at Thriver Co with the code LIVEMORE. That's 20% off at Thriver co with the code live more Thriver. Listen to your blood.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Well, what I do say to people, because they do ask me this, is to start keeping a journal, particularly where you have a decision or a dilemma where your logic says one thing, but your intuition says another. And you know, let's keep it safe and low risk at first, but let's say actually you ignore your gut and you go with your logic. Well, journal about how that panned out and try to demonstrate to yourself that you could have trusted your gut. And then in the next low risk sort of situation, go with your intuition, even if your logic tells you not to, and see what happens and journal about that and let that pan out. Keep doing that for at least six months, I would say probably a year, ideally, and read over your entries to see where your repeating patterns aren't serving you and to show yourself that sometimes when you take a risk, it really works out for you. There's also an exercise in the book that I really love to help people try to align that sort of head, heart and gut. It's called the unfurling exercise. And it's basically you sort of, you know, you have a question in your mind or a decision to make, and you take five deep breaths, put your hands on your head and ask your logic to give you the answer. Then you take five deep breaths, put your hands on your heart and ask your emotions to give you your answer. And then you take five deep breaths, put your hands on your belly and ask your gut or your intuition to give you the answer. Now, if they're all aligned, that's great, isn't it? But if they're not, again journaling and learning from that. And then I think one of the reasons that people struggle with this is because when you're in your own situation emotionally, it's very hard to get perspective. So sometimes I say, you know, what would you say to your brother or your best friend? Because we're all great at giving advice to our Friends, but can't give it to ourselves. But one exercise I do that can feel very emotional. I've often cried when I've done it, and I've shared it with a few friends who've said they cried as well, is myself in seven years time. So I'd be sitting here and I'd say, I'm Tara. This is how old I am. This is what I'm wearing. This is the thing I'm struggling with. Give me some advice. And then I would stand up, walk seven steps forward and turn around and say, I'm now Tara, seven years older than I am. Describe what I'm wearing, and then ask that Tara, the question. And then just like, go with the first thing that comes to your mind. And the reason that that's quite an emotional thing is because that's actually come from you. But, you know, if you didn't step outside of yourself in that way, you wouldn't trust that you actually know the answer.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. Just a simple way of getting out of your head or putting you in a different. Well, quite literally a different physical space. You're actually moving away from where you are. That's quite powerful, isn't it?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

There's another exercise that's similar that also works, which is. I think it's in the Source, and I called it creative mentoring, which is that you think of three people that you admire and trust. They could be people that you know, they could be historical characters or people that, you know have passed on. And you ask them each to answer your dilemma. And, you know, you go into a great deal of depth and say, like, you know, you describe the person and their name and their age and what they're like. And then you say, okay, I'm asking you, like Winston Churchill or whatever. And then you, you know, you go through that process of describing the other person so that you're kind of.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

You're.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

You're more like in there. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

So you've been a fan of journaling for years, and it's quite interesting when you're describing. One of the ways in which we can start to figure out how to trust ourselves more is to basically, I guess, build up that evidence for ourselves. Right. Just write down what you're doing in life. Write down how it pans out, and then, you know, look back and go, oh, when I did it that way, this is what I want to do that way. And over time, build up some sort of evidence that, oh, wow, when I trust my gut, things go well. Or it might be the other way. When I trust my guts. Maybe they don't go well. Right. But at least you're starting to tune into that and take it out of your mind.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

And getting out onto paper.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

At the same time, you did touch on this in the book, actually, which was the potential limitations of journaling in the sense that journaling is from the mind.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Okay.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

It's quite interesting that this is what I've realized in my own practice over the last years, that currently what I do is I will meditate first and then I'll journal because I sort of feel the meditation and sometimes some movement first brings things up, then I can. And those insights I can then crystallize in the journal. But just trying to help people start to tap into this inner wisdom. If, for example, they've been traumatized. Right. Or they've had, I guess, you know, lots of adversity in their life that they haven't done anything with and their fascia is loaded with all these emotions and trauma and their posture might have changed or they're stuck a certain way. Do you think doing it with the mind at that point can help? Or do you think this is where, you know, somatic practices, yoga, hands on therapy from osteopaths or whatever it might be like, speak to that a little bit as well, if you will.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Thanks. I wanted to go there because people are also so disembodied in the modern world, in the Western world. And so.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

And what does that mean? Because a lot of people, we hear that term. I don't think everyone understands that term. What does that disembodied mean?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Like not connected to your body, not receiving messages from your body, not listening to your body.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Because what we're on screens, we're sat down, we're sedentary, we sit on the sofa, we're not, I don't know, moving our bodies. And you mentioned dancing rituals before from our ancestors, different ways in which they would move.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. And so. Well, because, I mean, they were obviously they lived in a very. Physicality was a big part of the way that they lived because they were like hunting and gathering and so they.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Had to be in tune with their bodies.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yes, they were very in tune with their bodies, but creative things like art and dance and drumming and sort of creating that vibration in the body was part of that. So what I say to people in the modern day when they kind of say, I don't know what you mean by listening to my body, I don't know how to listen to my body, is I say, have you Ever had a visceral reaction to something. So have you heard a piece of news, good or bad, and had a chill go down your spine or your hair stand up on end? And so that's the kind most people will have had that. So that makes it, I think, understandable for people. And then you want to just notice that more like it's very common phrase in my friendship group to say that gave me goosebumps or that gave me chills. And I think that's us affirming each other that we trust each other's intuition or we had a strong emotional agreement with whatever they've said.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

But can I. Sorry. On the goosebumps thing.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Right.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Like all of us can really tune into that. You know, we've all been in situations before where someone has said something or something has happened and we felt goosebumps. Right. You can't really explain that easily with a rational mind. Right. There's something happened and on a deep level your body reacted. Right. That's. I mean, I don't know that that's quite awe inspiring as well to think about that.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Exactly. And you know, why are there even phrases like a chill ran down my spine or you know, I mean, because they're analogies to remind us that actually everything that's we're experiencing is happening to us physically, not just mentally. I mean, as part of the research, I actually asked the question, is art what makes us human? And what I found out that I thought was so interesting is that generally we think that cave paintings were made about 40,000 years ago and that was the beginning of art for humans. But actually. 20,000 years before that, in southern Africa, people were making carvings into ostrich eggshells. 50,000 years before that, they were making necklaces out of shells and wearing them and crumbling ochre and you know, rubbing it on their face and their body to adorn themselves. And 500,000 years ago, we were making tools that were more beautiful and symmetrical than they had to be to do the job they were necessary for. So this awe, this appreciation of beauty, this like, you know, really like inhabiting your body and understanding that it's a two way thing. What you feel and what you think is, as well as the connection with nature, which I talked about much earlier, those are really important things for us to reconnect, to truly be human, to be connected to ourselves as well as others and the whole thing.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah, it's thought that one of the reasons why exercise is so good for us as humans is because it helps enhance our interoceptive abilities. It helps us tune into our sensation. So we know suddenly if you run regularly, you know what an elevated heart rate feels like, whereas if you don't, sometimes an elevated heart rate can make you feel like you're anxious. Right. So it's the same signal, but you know how to interpret it because you have that physicality. It's kind of interesting. I was actually this morning, I was. I saw this wonderful osteopath who I've been seeing for years, and I told him you were coming in today. And we were just talking about this idea of trauma being stored in the body and what he has found. You know, he's in his 60s now, he's been doing this for decades, you know, and what he can actually feel in people's bodies. And we were also talking about this idea that a lot of ancestral cultures, like you say, Have all of these kind of. Either they're physical anyway, in terms of how they live, but they have all these practices, like, you know, drum beating or, you know, dancing in particular ways, but uninhibited dancing.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Do you know what I mean? So if there was trauma sort of locked in somewhere, it's almost gonna be released through those three dimensional movements.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

And we were just hypothesizing this idea that perhaps one of the costs of civilization. Is that we have suppressed our emotions and trauma into our fascia. Because there are certain things that are acceptable to do in the world, aren't there? We're allowed to do this, we're not allowed to do that. Yeah, okay.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Oh, you know, I don't like that. I'm not going to say anything. It's not the right thing to do, to say anything or whatever. So you, by not saying anything, you suppress that, you lock it in within you. So I don't know, it's quite an interesting thought. Maybe the cost of civilization is by not doing certain things in public, it means that we've kind of suppress those things down into our being. Does that make sense? Yeah.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

And I'm just Remembering that in March 2020, when we did the podcast remotely, because it was during the pandemic, I said to you, I'm really concerned there's going to be a mental health crisis. And I also said, but it could be an opportunity for a spiritual revolution. And the fact that we're having this kind of conversation now is. It's been a really interesting journey with you doing these podcasts and seeing, like how different the conversations have become.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. And actually that theme, because I. I can see what A risk you have taken in writing this book, or a perceived risk, at least, because what you've written about in this book is not the sort of thing that neuroscientists and psychiatrists write about. Okay? But if we just all have a bit more humility and go, we are living in an age that is literally unbelievable to people who were born a hundred years ago. Literally. I mean, yeah, planes exist, but even the fact, you know, I still. I'm in amazement, want to get on a plane. Like, I still don't understand how the hell this works. I don't. I'm like, we've got all these people, the 300 people in here. We've all got bags and suitcases. How has this thing got off? Right? I don't know. You can explain it with physics, but part me is in awe. Every time I'm on a plane, I'm like, this is nuts. Okay? But even you think about smartphones, right? I imagine if when my mum was a kid, if someone said to her, look, later on in your life, there's going to be these things, right? It's going to be tiny thing you can have in your pocket and you're going to be able to communicate with anyone in the world, not just on text, which you probably wouldn't know what text is back then, but on video. Yeah. Or you're gonna carry something in your pocket where you can literally stream any film that's ever been made in the last 50 years. People would think you're mad. Eighty years ago, I think. Do you know what I mean? What does that teach us? It teaches us that there are things that we are living through right now that would have been deemed ridiculous for the vast majority of our revolution, but now we accept them as normal. It's kind of nuts, isn't it?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

It's nuts. And it makes me feel like, you know, when you said writing this book was a perceived risk, it makes me really realize. And again, thank you. Because some things have really landed for me in this conversation that the biggest risk of my life would have been not coming out with this story for my life, for my soul, for my, you know, belief in love. If I thought, oh, I better not do that because, you know, companies might not want to hire me, that would have been, like, such a. Such a shame.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. It's so powerful that you would have been playing it safe rather than, you know, rather than being authentic. Right. Which is what so many of us do. You know, I want your take on something, which I was getting to before, mind and Body. Okay. And I'm really fascinated by your take on this because you've written about fascia in the book and you know, this idea that our emotions and a lot of our experiences are stored in our fascia, which I also believe. But I have this thing I always think about, like, how is it that we change and evolve? So if we think about intuition and this ability to access our inner wisdom, let's say. But if we're stuck in certain patterns because of trauma, so our fascia's tight, our postures change. You know, you were a psychiatrist for years. There's a certain posture sometimes you will see in people who are struggling with their mental health.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Right.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

It's not open hearted. Open chest is standing up tall. Right. It's a lot more enclosed and sort of maybe bent over or hunched over at the shoulders, whatever it might be. Right. So whilst I think a lot of my improvements personally have come from cognitive reframing, I've also worked on my body for 12, 13 years, you know, improving my movement patterns, seeing therapists to regularly sort of work on my body as well. So I guess I just wanted your take on that. You know, can you do it all from the mind? Can you do it all from the body? Or. Or do you need a bit of both?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

I think the both is like, takes it to the next level.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

I'm just trying to think of the two options, like, can you do it just with your body? No, I think it's gotta be like cognitively placed as well. And we know from all of Bessel van der Kolk's research that just talking therapy is no way as effective as yoga or art therapy and for ptsd, because actually the part of the brain that's to do with speaking, the Broca's area, actually gets shut down by ptsd. And that's why people say things like, I'm dumbfounded or I don't have words for this. And that's where the body work comes in. But the combination is that's where the magic is. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

I think you referenced a trial. Is it firefighters who use creativity as a way of helping them with trauma?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. It's actually a charity called Ashes to Art, where firefighters that go into a really traumatic scene, as soon as they exit it, they immediately have to paint what they saw. And it shows a massive reduction in number of people getting PTSD from these things.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Wow. I'm a parent, Tara. Okay. You've met my children on multiple occasions. If I would like them to grow up with as much access to this hidden wisdom as possible. What are the kinds of things that you would recommend I do with him?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

So I'm gonna actually start answering this with a bit of a counter. So I think often the reason that people are not able to trust their intuition is because they were ridiculed as children. So, you know, if they had, like, a feeling about something that they wanted and people like exactly what you're saying, like, don't say that. No, we don't do that. You know, that kind of thing. It all gets schooled out of you and parented out of you. And so I would say using. Making sure you're saying, like, how do you feel about that? As much as you say, what do you think of that?

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah, I like that.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. Maybe using phrases like, you know, what does your heart say? Or what does your gut say? You know, just to, like, introduce that language, but also, obviously to do, like, physical stuff. Exercise with them. Yeah. Just really demonstrating when you use your gut, you know, to do something, but just really getting them to tap into that, like, what do you feel is the right thing to do? What you feel is the best thing to do? What does your heart want to do?

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

And then also teaching them to run that by logic, I think you can then say, does that make sense to do that sort of thing? And, you know, encouraging them to have those conversations with their friends as well and just see different perspectives.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah. This idea of hidden wisdom, you can even look at it really simply, where if you go into a room where there has just been an argument. Right. But you didn't witness the argument, but there's tension between the two people in there. You can feel it.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

That. We all know that.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

And that's kind of interesting. Is it? Because sometimes it's easy to go, hidden wisdom, what are you talking about? You know, there's the way things are and there's the way things aren't. Right. But it's like, hold on a minute. If you really start to ask yourself those questions, you go, yeah, we've all been in situations where something felt off, or we could feel that, oh, something's just gone down in here. There's clearly. We do have an ability to pick up on something.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

You're a very private person. Yet over the past few months, you've been doing a lot of interviews, talking about Robin. How has that been for you?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

It's actually been such a relief. You know, I waited till I was ready to speak about it, and that's been almost four years. So it was a long time. So I kept things private whilst I needed to grieve. But as you, as you mentioned, you know, I really like to be authentic, even like when I present on social media and podcasts. And so I think I didn't feel inauthentic because I, I've, you know, chose to protect my privacy and that's my right, obviously. But I just, yeah, I feel relieved that, that, you know, that part of my life is now out there. It probably explains, like, some of the decisions that I've made professionally in the last few years. And, yeah, it just, like, feels like a massive weight off my shoulder. And also, you know, a big part of grieving, as I'm sure you'll agree, is that you want that person to be remembered. And so, you know, I just, I feel like yesterday was his birthday because that date is written in the book. People messaged me and, you know, it's just so lovely. Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

It's interesting how our relationship with grief can change over time. It's, you know, 12, 13 years since my dad died. And it's kind of really interesting to, for me, on a personal level, to kind of reflect on how my relationship with dad dying has changed because now when I think back to dads, I just smile. You know, everyone's experience of grief is individual and they're entitled to it and they're entitled to frame it however they want.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

I now frame my dad's death as a gift to me.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Oh.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Like I really do. And I asked myself, you know, it's easy to go, yeah, I wish dad was still here. Of course, on many levels, I do. But do I? Because it's really interesting. Again, I'll be thinking about this while screening your book. In the lead up to you coming into the studio today, I was thinking, yeah, but Dad's gift to me was his death. It was the lessons that I learned through his death. If my dad was still alive, I wouldn't be the person who I am today. I wouldn't be doing what I am today. I wouldn't know the things. I wouldn't have that experience to draw upon.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

So how we relate to death changes over time, doesn't it?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's so beautiful that you could say that. And I feel, you know, I understand it and maybe, like, not there yet.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

I couldn't. Four years then.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

No, but that's what he would have wanted. He wouldn't have wanted you to be, you know, bitter and feel like life treated you unfairly and not be the best version of Yourself that you could be. So that's a really beautiful choice. And I think you're right. It does take quite a lot of time.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

But also I. So I believe that the soul lives on. Okay. That's always brought up. But as I get older, more and more and more, as I tune into me and what I think, I think, yeah, it doesn't make sense to me that that's it. So the funny thing is. So I don't think. Or maybe I've not been looking. Right. I can't say, honestly. Oh, I've. I've had signs from my dads. Right. I can't. That. That would not be true because I. Or certainly that's not the language I would have used or would use now. Like, I don't think I've been looking for them, I don't think I've been asking for them, but I still feel my dad's around. And even if it's just simplistically, this idea that, well, I spent all those years with dad, like his ethos and who he is as a person is ingrained and infused within me. People see so many similarities with me and my dad. Our manner, how we make jokes. Right. Of course, I would have learned a lot of that from dad just growing up and being around him. So you absorb that when you were a little kid. Right. So whether I can go round and see my dad now and touch his skin or not, which I can't. The kind of weird thing is, over the last few years, I feel more and more that dad is around, that he is a part of me in everything that I do. Yeah. So I guess that's. I haven't looked at my dad's death through the lens of signs yet. I still feel my dad is around me. But you've. You are. Your relationship with Robin has evolved, I guess, in a different way. Right.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. So. Well, I wanted to ask you, do you have conversations with him in your head?

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

No, I don't think I do because.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

That'S part of my journey as well. And a lot of other people say they sense a presence. I have had that, but it's not a big part of my journey. A lot of people say that their loved ones visit them in their dreams. I've had a couple, but that's not a major thing for me. And Robyn, although he often goes into a few of my close friends often say that they had a dream about him and tell me, like, what the message was and stuff. So I think it's a bit of a spectrum or Kaleidoscope. I don't know how to describe it. Of various ways in which you can experience that that person hasn't disappeared altogether.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess we've all got the right to experience grief in the way that we want to, and anything that we can individually do to make sense of that in our own lives has value.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Oh, Tara, we've covered so many different areas. We haven't scratched the surface. I don't think of what's in your book, the Signs, which is a riveting read. Is there something we haven't spoken about yet that is a key message that you would love to share with my audience?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah. And it's a bit of a challenge to you, but also to the audience, which is. Could you just try this little exercise? So think of a really fond memory of your dad, or like you said about jokes, a joke that you two had that only, like, you two knew about or would get. And then choose a symbol that represents that memory or that joke and ask for a sign and then tell me what happens.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Okay. All right, challenge accepted. Okay. So let's see what happens, if anything. I mean, I have an open mind, so. Yeah. Okay. I like that. Tara, Right at the end of this conversation, um, I'm sure that at various times throughout this, people may have got light bulb moments in their own life. Um, I certainly think that many people experience what you have experienced. And I. I've seen the comments. I've spoken to you. I can see how validating it is for so many people to hear someone like you, with your prominence, talk about this.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

So I think you're doing a lot of people a huge service simply by talking about your experience, and they can really resonate with you through that. For someone who's been listening and is kind of leaning in going, yeah, I'm totally disconnected from this inner wisdom. Right. I don't know what I think. I've had a difficult life. Fear is what was behind all my decision making. I don't know if something's coming from my heart or from my trauma, but I want to move forward in my life. I want to start trusting myself again. I want to start tuning in again, but I don't know where to start. What would you say to them?

[Dr. Tara Swart]

I'm going to go right back to pretty much where we started this conversation and talk about that time in nature that we were both drawn to at difficult times. You've made me realize even more today how not just crucial, but sort of how much of a boost it gives people. And I really, you know, want to sort of. Obviously I love people to listen to podcasts, but not doing anything else. When you're doing that walking in nature, that will give you the key to your inner wisdom.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Spending time with yourself in nature.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

And you'll start to realize stuff about yourself you didn't know before.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Yeah.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Tara, thank you for coming back on the show. Thank you for writing the signs. I'm delighted to see what a positive reception it's getting.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Thanks.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

And I look forward to the next time you come back.

[Dr. Tara Swart]

Thank you.

[Dr. Rangan Chatterjee]

Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do take a moment to think about one thing you can put into practice in your own life and one thing you could share or teach to someone else. Remember, when you teach somebody else, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. And of course, if you think this episode would be helpful for somebody in your life, please do consider sharing it with them. Now, before you go, just a quick reminder from me, as you may recall me chatting about with Tara, my fifth book, Happy Mind, Happy Life, is being re released on January 1, 2026 in a brand new format. It has been reimagined with a brand new cover, a foreword by Oliver Bergman, and a new reflective chapter from me. It's smaller and lighter than the original version of the book, but it contains the same powerful message that happiness is a skill we can all get better at when we know what to work on. You can pre order the book right now in all the usual places, see the episode notes in your podcast app. And for those of you who prefer audiobooks, all the new sections will of course be available in the audiobook, which also includes an exclusive Q and A with myself. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free at drchatterjeet.com Friday 5 if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested in to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world covering all kinds of different topics, happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change and movement, weight loss and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks and as audiobooks, which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the Episode Notes in your podcast app. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more.