← Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee
Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee
The 3 Key Ingredients For A Thriving Relationship, Practical Strategies To Manage Conflict & How To Build Deeper Relationships with Yung Pueblo #531
01:55:17
How much of your relationship tension comes from expectations that were never communicated? And what if changing the way you handle conflict could completely transform them?
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- [00:01]
A
Everything is temporary. There's never been a permanent emotion like all of them are temporary. There's never been a storm in the history of the universe that's lasted forever.
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Hey guys, how are you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee and this is my podcast, Feel Better Live More Whilst many of us dedicate countless hours to our careers and work, we don't tend to devote the same amount of time to the basics of emotional awareness. Yet this week's guest believes that this may well be the most important skill we can learn. Today's guest is Diego Perez, widely known by his pen name Young Pueblo. Diego is followed by millions of people all around the world who are keen to learn from his wisdom and he's the author of multiple best selling books including his very latest, how to Love Better the Path to Deeper Connection Through Growth, Kindness and Compassion. In our conversation you will hear about Diego's remarkable journey from addiction to transformation and how meditation became the cornerstone of his recovery. He also beautifully articulates why he considers his daily two hour meditation practice the best investment he's ever made, cultivating three essential qualities self awareness, non reactivity and compassion. You'll also learn about the art of conscious communication, the concept of selfless listening, the three key ingredients for thriving relationships, and how to navigate conflict in relationships constructively and use it as an opportunity for growth. Whether you are currently in a relationship or not, this conversation is full of powerful insights that will absolutely help you on your path to a more contented life. It's a conversation about courage, love and growth. But it's also a conversation that helps us deeply understand that it is our relationships that can be our greatest teachers. I wanted to start off by asking you about meditation.
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A
Sure.
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B
You meditate, I believe, for two hours every single day.
- [02:35]
A
That's right, every single day.
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B
Why is that?
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A
Because it's the best investment I've ever made. It's. It has absolutely transformed my life for the better internally in my own mind, and it's elevated my relationships to a whole nother level of depth that I didn't really have access to before. I think I was sort of shocked by the like how much I get back from meditating because I went into it as an experiment, but then when I came back out my mind was lighter. So I tried it out a bunch of times, went to a few silent 10 day retreats, and when I started meditating daily, the progress was tremendous.
- [03:16]
B
There'll be some people who have stumbled across this conversation who I believe will be thinking, diego, listen, two hours a day, you don't get my life. I'm busy. I've got kids, I've got work pressures, I've got ABC that I have to do each day. What would you say to someone like that who feels that two hours of meditation is unrealistic for them?
- [03:44]
A
I think you start where you can. You know, it also felt unrealistic to me too until I started seeing that there, there was time. You know, there was a lot of time where, you know, I'd wake up in the morning and I would kind of dilly dally and do. Do what? Not take my time to really start my day. And then now when I get up, I just get up and start meditating. Or in the evening, the same thing too, where I just cut out an hour from Netflix and just meditate. And I can still watch some shows before I go to bed. So there is some time there. I know some people have extremely busy lives, but I think of it as like, how would I remove what profoundly helps me? Like, it's almost like, why would I not allow myself to drink water? You know, like, I think of meditation in a similar vein where it's like water is so nourishing to me. I need it every day for meditating as well. It feels like it's something that's just helping me learn and grow and keep developing my self awareness. So it's a gift that I'm giving to myself.
- [04:43]
B
What I find interesting about meditation. I'm also a fan like you. Although to be completely transparent, I don't do two hours a day. Although I will say over the last couple of days, reading your books, researching you and your life, you've really got me thinking about, well, Rangan, what would your life look like if you did meditate for two hours a day? Right. So first of all, your approach is inspiring me actually at the moment to make me think maybe this is something I can start to increase in my own life.
- [05:16]
A
Yeah.
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B
I think with a lot of practices that people want to engage with for their health or their happiness or their relationships, they kind of know the outcome before they start. They know the outcome that they want. So for example, someone may start moving their body and working out.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Because they know it's going to give them energy or make them feel different or help them lower their anxiety.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And I would say with five minutes of movements you can feel a difference straight away.
- [05:48]
A
Totally.
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B
Is it fair to say that with meditation that, you know, that return on investment question that we have to ask ourselves, do you think that's a little bit more cloudy for people? That they don't really understand what they're going to get so they try it and go, it ain't working.
- [06:06]
A
Yeah, especially because a lot of people think that, you know, the point of meditating is to like stop all your thoughts. And it's not, that's not really the point at all. And also when you look at meditating as a whole, meditating is like just. There are so many different traditions, there are so many different types. And these different types of meditation have different goals. You know, some are very bliss oriented. The one that I practice is oriented towards building equanimity, a sense of balance, non reactiveness and meditating itself. Especially in this vipassana tradition, we focus on developing the qualities of self awareness, non reaction and compassion. So you're literally taking yourself to the mental gym. You know, these are qualities that your mind is born with, but they are like muscles that haven't been really strengthened. So to me it's like you have to know what you want to get out of it. And I think non reaction was the key element that I was missing in my life where I was just getting so attached to everything, creating so much mental tension in my own mind. And once I started being able to observe that, everything changes. So why am I really holding on? It helped tremendously.
- [07:19]
B
I can't imagine there's anyone listening, Diego, who doesn't want those three things. More self awareness, the ability to be non reactive and the ability to have more compassion.
- [07:31]
A
Totally. But these things take training. They don't just happen overnight. They literally require cultivation. The same way, you know, you're not just going to run a marathon tomorrow, you have to train for it.
- [07:43]
B
If you have those three things or as you cultivate those three things, I imagine that one would be, one would feel calmer, they'd feel happier. Yeah, they'd probably be healthier in many ways, right?
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A
Yes.
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B
So I guess what I'm leading to is if these are things you have to cultivate, are they our natural state or are they things that are not our natural state that we have to work on in order to get.
- [08:17]
A
Oh, that's a really good question. It's interesting because when the mind is really clear and it's not clinging to anything, the mind is automatically aware, automatically compassionate. It is really clear in its decision making and it's quite creative. But we unconsciously gather so much conditioning, like literally. I mean, one of the key things that I learned that helped me understand myself and why my mind was the way that it was in the past was that every single time that you react, you are creating an imprint in the subconscious of the mind that is molding and shaping your mind so that you are not only perceiving the present through the lens of the past, but you are reacting in the way that you used to. So let's say in the past, when you would defend yourself with anger, that anger is more likely to come up because you're constantly looking at reality, and it's like, oh, this reminds me of the thing that threatened me before. So now the anger flies up. But for people, they think that's their natural selves. That's actually incorrect. That's just their past reappearing through this impulsiveness.
- [09:23]
B
Yeah, no, I love that. I always think about this idea of whether happiness is our default state or not, because some people push back against that, go, no, it's not. We're wired to survive. And I believe happiness is our default state, actually. And one of the things that leads me to that conclusion is my experience of being a father. So when my kids were little, when they were young, you literally, you just see them being present. They're in the moment, they're fully absorbed in what's happening. They're content, they're calm, they're happy.
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A
Right.
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B
So my belief is that happiness is our default state, but society, culture, education, conditioning, it trains it out of us.
- [10:10]
A
Yeah. And you see that, like, what you're pointing to is that the mind is a sponge. The mind is, like, just soaking in everything, all different, you know, everything that it's reading, the people that it's around. It's just consuming so much conditioning. And over time, that will not only shape your personality, but it'll also shape the behavior patterns that cause difficulty in your life. And that's why to me, like, when I go and I put my time, like, right before I came here to see you, I meditated for an hour on the train. And that hour helped just calm my mind, help it develop its awareness and support me in clear decision making.
- [10:49]
B
Okay, so you've got a train roughly two hours from London to my studio. Okay, so I observe this when I get that train regularly myself.
- [10:59]
A
Yeah, yeah. You take that train all the time.
- [11:01]
B
I do a lot less over the last few years, in the last few weeks and months because of my book launch. I've been getting it a lot. But what I observe. And of course, I don't know what people have got on in their earbuds. Right. People could be meditating Right. But I imagine the vast majority of people on that train that you just took and not meditating, right. I would imagine most of them are.
- [11:27]
A
Either working, they're hitting the keyboard.
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B
They're hitting the keyboard. Or even if they've got their eyes shut and they've got their headphones on, they're listening to a podcast, they're listening to music, they're listening to the news, they're watching something on Netflix, whatever it might be. Yet you have chosen on that journey when you could have done all of those things, you chose to meditate. So that's really interesting to me. What is it that you know about meditation that maybe the people around you don't know?
- [11:59]
A
I think, I mean, I just. I've had a lot of experience with it. I think when I did that silent 10 day course, it was so stunningly difficult to be by myself, to not be speaking to other people, to just be with the emotions that I used to dedicate my life. You know, literally running away from them to getting. Getting as far away from my emotions as possible because I was scared to feel. And after getting over that fear and just allowing myself to feel whatever's arising and passing in the body, I started realizing that there is just a great opportunity here for growth, for learning. I mean, I finished the first silent 10 day course and I felt like I had learned more in those 10 days than four years of university. And it was so shocking to me. So whenever I do, you know, every. I've been meditating two hours a day now for, I think, like nine, nine years. And I just know that the investment is too. Like the results of the investment are too big to pass up. So when I sit there, I close my eyes, I am observing my body, feeling whatever is there. And that outcome is that I come out, my mind is calmer. I'm able to check in with my partner because she was also meditating. And then we also got on our laptops. But I think we were able to make decisions that felt just much more aligned.
- [13:28]
B
One of my philosophies, Diego, is that the reason people struggle to make changes that last in their lives is often because of an internal agitation that they feel that they're not aware of. Right. So again, these three things you're talking about self awareness, non reactivity, and compassion. Okay, if we just take non reactivity as an example, I was at Euston yesterday, so the station in London. Okay, I got the journey that you got today, yesterday. And what was really interesting is that all the trains were canceled for Three hours. There was an incident somewhere along the line, and EU sensation in the middle of the day was turning into chaos. Okay. I was observing lots of people getting stressed out. And I do feel a sense of inner calm these days. So I was able to watch that and go, wow. I think that would have been me a few years ago, you know, going, oh, man, I can't believe it. This has happened. You know, I had to get back whatever. Right. And so where I think that gets in the way of people for their health, at least, is that what I think a lot of people don't realize is that they are actually generating that internal stress.
- [14:47]
A
Yes.
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B
They don't realize that. They think it's the external event that caused that in them. I don't think a lot of people realize that. No, that external event is out of my control. It's actually a neutral event. I am choosing, whether I know it or not, to generate that internal stress. And that internal stress will then have to be neutralized in some way. Now, if you then get on a train, you ain't gonna be doing it in a healthy way. You know, most people are gonna neutralize that emotional stress that they created with sugar, with more caffeine, with alcohol, with numbing their minds with something. And so I believe. And what's really fascinating for me, and we're gonna talk about meditation, relationships for sure. But I think what you're talking about there, these qualities that you have cultivated within yourself through meditating, are gonna have such profound effects on people that they don't even realize.
- [15:48]
A
Yeah. And you know what's interesting, too, is I really believe that one of the most empowering things that you can understand is that your perception and your reaction are happening in you, in your mind and in your body. So we think that these external events, they can be quite challenging. Like, people can do things to you that are disagreeable, that are not good, that are objectively wrong. But then you still have to understand that your perception and your reaction is happening inside of you. So then what does that mean? Am I going to cause myself more misery than I need to? Like, am I going to make my own stress bigger than it really needs to be? Because that's something where it feels like such a valuable skill to learn is to not throw more fuel onto the fire. Let's say you have a lot of anxiety coming up, you're there, you're waiting at the train station, and you are irritated. But why am I going to try to fuel that irritation? Why am I going to make it bigger? Let Me, just observe it, feel it, and then it'll pass away like every other emotion.
- [16:51]
B
And as you say, you mentioned on your journey that by meditating for an hour, then when you then open your laptop and try to do your emails, you had a clarity, you can make decisions. Right. So let's relay that to, let's say, the parents who stuck at Euston.
- [17:07]
A
Yeah.
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B
And who is thinking, damn, I have to pick up my child from school in three hours. This train being canceled now causes a problem, which is completely understandable because you want to pick up your child. But what you're saying is the situation may not be the way you want it to be. The train canceled, who wants that? No one wants it to be. But if you don't, then generate more and more internal stress, you're probably gonna feel calmer and be able to go, okay, I can't control that. There's an instant on the line. This train ain't going for a few hours. Okay, who can I phone?
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A
Let me solve the problem, Let me solve the problem.
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B
Whereas you stressing about it is not gonna help you solve it.
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A
Right. And when you call the person who could pot help you and they just feel your stress oozing all over the place like it's. It'll be much easier to just, you know, to solve the situation with a calm mind. I really believe a calm mind has incredible decision making power. And that's something that is a gift that only you can give to yourself. So why not just lean on observing the emotions that are happening as opposed to reacting and making them bigger and bigger and bigger?
- [18:25]
B
You said that it's almost a decade since you've been meditating with two hours a day. Okay, can you paint a picture for us about the state of your life before you discovered meditation?
- [18:38]
A
Totally. Totally. It was utter chaos, I think, when I. So I. I was born in Ecuador in South America, and my mother and father decided that we should move to the United States for better economic opportunity. And when we got to the United States, I grew up in Boston. So it was just my, my mother, my father, my brother and I. And when we got to Boston, it was just, we were living in this classic American poverty trap. Like, we were just stuck in poverty for, for about 15 years, you know, just growing up. And it was a constant struggle where my mom and dad were always, you know, fighting about how to make the rent, like how to pay the rent, how to put food in the fridge. And I saw this happen cyclically, and it was just constantly happening every month. And even Though my parents were great parents, they loved me and my brother really well, took great care of us as best as they could. The stress of poverty was so intense that it felt like we were like living in a submarine that was too far underwater. And you could just feel like, you know, the pressure of life pushing in on us. And that unknowingly created a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, the scarcity mindset in me that was just living inside of me, totally unprocessed. Like I was oblivious to all these emotions that were, you know, begging for my attention. And I ended up going to university in Connecticut and I was in such a different environment that even more anxiety was coming up that I felt like I just needed to run away from my emotions. So the best way that I found to flee was through partying, through alcohol, through drugs. And I was just such a party monster. Like I was constantly going out and I ended up just driving my body to the absolute edge where I became so unhealthy physically and mentally. And then there was one night after I graduated from college. So the summer of 2011, where I hit my rock bottom moment. And I almost lost my life that night where, you know, done way too many drugs and I could feel like my heart was just, was just going to explode. And fortunately for me, I didn't die that night. But I realized that what caused this whole problem, this like long series of events, was that I just didn't want to tell myself the truth. I didn't want to tell myself the truth that I didn't feel good. And then I had to do something about it.
- [21:18]
B
Wow. It's interesting. You know, as I hear you tell that story, it reminds me in some ways of a conversation I had with a monk, a Buddhist monk, he's called Geelong Tupton. And he was in New York in his early 20s. Very, very similar story. Partying, you know, all kinds of stuff. Basically distracting himself from life until things got really, really bad. He realized he couldn't go on. I think he was trying to be an actor in New York. And he's now a Buddhist monk.
- [21:54]
A
Amazing.
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B
And he meditates, he does long meditation retreats. He meditates every day. And what's striking to me is since you walked into my house, I've noticed a real sense of calm radiating from you.
- [22:12]
A
Thank you.
- [22:13]
B
And it's really noticeable, especially cause you probably a little bit jet lagged, you've been traveling from America, you've just come up to my house, but there's still this sense of calm. Tupton also had a sense of calm. And I'm wondering if there's something about the human condition where we have to go to these extremes. You know, you almost died one night from taking too many drugs. And now you're sitting here having meditated for two hours a day for the last 10 years with this calm, this clarity. Do you know what I mean? It's striking to me.
- [22:46]
A
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I feel like, I think it's. Sometimes we can think that that's necessary, but I really don't believe everybody needs to hit rock bottom for them to totally take their evolution into their own hands and decide to build the habits that will actually support, you know, their thriving. You know, I think my wife and I are the perfect example. Like I was in utter chaos and she just realized that she could benefit from something like, you know, this type of mental training. And so for me, like I hit rock bottom with drugs and alcohol, but she didn't really have that problem. But she also went into it and you know, she also, like me, goes and meditates for, you know, 30 day long courses, 45 days long, meditating in silent retreats. And so I think it's, it really just depends on the person. Like everyone's living with some degree of agitation and that agitation and that tension in the mind just makes everything cloudier and heavier. And sometimes you just get tired of it. You're like, I have to figure out a way to solve this problem. And for some people it's therapy, some people it's psychiatry. Other people it's like, you know, some form of meditating or another. And for me, I've been fortunate that I found this tool that profoundly connects with my intuition. You know, like, like the style that I meditate is quite rigorous. So it's not, it's not for everybody.
- [24:08]
B
What is it?
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A
It's vipassana and the Goenka tradition.
- [24:12]
B
So that's VIP V, I, P A.
- [24:14]
A
S, S A A N A and AM and it's a very rigorous style of meditating. And it's definitely, you know, it's, it's for a lot of people, but it's not for everybody. It's, you have to make sure that you're going into a situation that, that is good for you, that that meets you where you're at. Like, you know, some people have experienced such severe degrees of trauma that they may need way lighter forms of meditating or maybe even meditating is not the thing for them. They may need some type of therapy to help them you know, take steps forward. So. But for me, I'm grateful that I found something that totally meets me where I'm at. And I'm like, I love that it was so challenging. And really like, the meditation instructions are amazingly simple, but they're very hard to do because they're asking you to just observe, just observe what's happening.
- [25:02]
B
So there's no distract yourself, there's no soundtrack, there's nothing you're listening to when you're there.
- [25:06]
A
In the retreats, it's a guided meditation, like you're being led, you know, you're, they're giving you instructions every day and they're building on it. And by the 10th day you'll understand the technique and be able to do it at home. But it's quite simple. But part of that is you being able to train the mind. Like the first three days, you just spend it just being aware of the breath, being aware of the breath coming in, going out, observing it as it's moving naturally. You're not doing anything else to it.
- [25:31]
B
If you were in the middle of constant distraction, drinking, partying, staying up late, doing drugs.
- [25:37]
A
Right.
- [25:38]
B
It strikes me that even three days of just having to sit there and observe your breath, did it feel like a form of torture? Vivobarefoot are one of the sponsors of today's show. Now, I am a huge fan of Vivobarefoot shoes and have been wearing them for over a decade, decade now, well before they started supporting this podcast. I've also been recommending them to patients for years because I've seen so many benefits. I've seen improvements in back pain, hip pain, knee pain, foot pain, and even things like plantar fasciitis. And contrary to what you might initially think, most people find Vivos really, really comfortable. But I have to say, especially at this time of year, as the temperature is starting to drop, their winter boots are absolutely fantastic. And I myself am really enjoying wearing their brand new goby warm lined winter boots now as well as adults. I think they are a fantastic option for children and I really hope that in the future more and more children start wearing boots barefoot shoes like Vivos, as I think this can prevent many downstream problems in the body later on in life. And remember, whether for your children or yourself, if you've never tried Vivos before, it's completely risk free to do so as they offer a 100 day trial for new customers. So if you're not happy, you just send them back for a full refund. If you go to vivobarefoot,.comlivemore. They are giving 20% off as a one time code to all of my podcast listeners. Terms and conditions do apply. To get your 20% off codes, all you have to do is go to vivobarefoot.com live more.
- [27:49]
A
It was terrible. I mean, I. I only was able to finish the first course because Uber didn't exist. Like, there was no way for me to get back home. I was in a place that was. You know, I took that first course in Washington state on the west coast of the United States, and I was just so far away in the middle of nowhere. And I had gotten a ride there from somebody who was also taking the course.
- [28:15]
B
Cause you were stuck. You couldn't leave.
- [28:16]
A
I was stuck. So I remember seeing. I remember, like, looking at the back of this guy's head and wondering, if he leaves, I gotta get my stuff and go too. Cause, like, I'm trying to get my ride back. But I noticed by the eighth day, I'm like, this guy's not going anywhere. You know, he's here. So then I was like, all right, I'm here too. Let me just face it. Let me stop fighting it. Let me just face it. And when I finished the course and I got back to where I was staying, I immediately felt that my mind was lighter. It was lighter than it was before. And that sort of decrease in tension, you know, it started introducing me not only to the beginnings of peace, but it introduced me to my creativity. Like, I never, ever in my life. Like, I was just talking to my wife about it the other day, I'm over here signing books, and I'm like, what? Like, why am I an author? Like, what's. Like, when did this happen? This was never the plan.
- [29:09]
B
Yeah. I always love to listen to things and then try and get to the root cause. What's the principle at play here? So if I think about what you just told me about meditation or your particular. The type of meditation that you practice.
- [29:27]
A
Right.
- [29:28]
B
Okay. My mind goes to this idea that, okay, today it's never been easier to distract ourselves than ever before. To the point where actually, could we make a case that if Uber did exist and you had a smartphone back then that had Uber on it, I.
- [29:46]
A
Would have been gone, man. Yeah, gone.
- [29:47]
B
So your career, your flourishing Instagram accounts, Whole other life. Yeah. So it says these sliding door moments. Right. Uber not existing.
- [29:57]
A
Yeah.
- [29:58]
B
Was a fantastic thing for you.
- [29:59]
A
Amazing.
- [30:00]
B
But that also, I think, on a macro level applies to all of us. These apps that exist, the constant distraction, it means so many of us are Never being forced, because it sounds like in some way you were forced to do what you did.
- [30:14]
A
Yeah. And think about these apps, a lot of them, whatever the product is that they're offering to people, they're trying to make life easier. And this was a moment where I had nothing that could make the situation easier for me. I just had to face myself. And I was grateful that not only did I have the sort of, you know, this like, hidden resilience that I never even was aware of because I never had challenged myself like that, but I was able to benefit from that challenge because then I saw, I was like, okay, I'm actually stronger than I thought.
- [30:45]
B
Many of us are living these days with constant distraction. Okay. So the stuff that is there in our mind, we never have to face.
- [30:51]
A
Yeah.
- [30:53]
B
Can we say very simplistically, that what that meditation retreat gave you and what it's given you and what the practice has given you since then, is simply an outlet for those thoughts instead of being buried. And then you distract yourself at surface level and keep them buried, you're just giving yourself space to allow those thoughts to come up and be processed. And therefore, that internal noise that was clogging up your system and your mind and your behaviors through the acts of meditation, you're allowing those things to almost evaporate up out of you. So what's left behind is clearer and lighter.
- [31:38]
A
You used a word that I use all the time is evaporate. The conditioning will literally evaporate when you don't repeat it. So in the moments when I'm meditating, what I'm really doing is basically tapping into the universal wisdom of impermanence. Right. The law of impermanence. That everything is changing and bound to change. That's pervasive throughout the universe, whether it's at the atomic level, at the biochemical level, at the cosmological level, Everything is in motion. This whole universe exists in a manner where everything is just flowing forward like a river. And when we fight that, and we fight that through attachment, literally clinging and craving for things to exist in a very particular way, then life gets very hard. So the mind is often geared towards attachment. And when I sit and meditate, I'm just embracing impermanence. I'm literally feeling how change is pervasive throughout the entire body. Like I was mentioning before, when you're meditating and you're developing your awareness, being aware of the breath. In the 10 day course, you do it for three days. In the 45 day course, you're being aware of the breath for 15 days before you even start observing the body for the next 30 days. But in those 15 days, you can make the mind so powerful that the body doesn't feel hard anymore. It feels like a rushing river of atoms where, you know, you turn your attention to your hand and you just feel the way that there are just so, so many vibrations. Like everything's constantly in motion in there. And even though it feels still, simultaneously, you can feel things changing inside of it. And that's something that's like that truth. When you tap into it multiple times a day, it reminds you, and it helps cultivate the mind in a direction that's opposite of attachment. Like impermanence and attachment are totally opposite of each other. Yeah.
- [33:37]
B
When you were on the train just now meditating, you have nothing in your ears like headphones.
- [33:42]
A
Yeah, yeah, nothing.
- [33:43]
B
So a lot of people feel that life and their external conditions have to be perfect in order to meditate. I used to feel that.
- [33:51]
A
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:52]
B
And when I. When my kids were younger, they'd come down and be with me when I was meditating. I learned very quickly, oh, why don't you just reframe this and go, hey, if you can meditate when your kids are around you, even better. It's like weight training, right? Because you're meditating now with external noise around you. But when you're meditating on the train and there's people walking by you and there's noise and the ticket conductor is coming or whatever it might be, are you hearing it? Are you aware of it? Or have you. Are you tuning it out?
- [34:22]
A
Yeah, in the beginning, I hear it, and I can hear the changes in the noises. But more so my attention is being really sort of. I'm pointing it back to the actual body so I'm, like, feeling the way my arm feels, feeling the way my leg feels and moving through the body like that. And so after a while, yeah, the noises in the background just kind of get tuned out. And I travel a lot for work, so I. I've learned to, you know, I gotta meditate two hours a day anywhere, in whatever condition I'm in. So whether it's at home and it's very easy to meditate there, or whether, like, you know, I'm meditating 30,000ft up on a plane or whatnot. So being able to meditate in transit while other people are around, or in some, like, random park bench when I need to give myself an hour, it doesn't matter, because then people just. They kind of. They look at you and I don't know what they're perceiving, but I imagine they just look like they're like either he's meditating or he's sleeping very, you know, like in a, in a sitting posture or something like that.
- [35:22]
B
Do you think someone might be able to get similar benefits with a different form of solitude practice? So let's say they went for a 90 minute walk each day without listening to music. Right. Or, you know, some form of other practice. Do you think it's possible?
- [35:40]
A
I mean, walking is my jam. Walking is like, that's become my new sort of like favorite thing, I think. Yeah, a lot. There are a lot of ways to build the quality of self awareness and just introspection and also building that resilience towards just feeling your emotions and letting them be whatever they are. I mean, I've seen people benefit dramatically from just simple journaling or simple gratitude practices or taking their health more seriously. And I've just seen people change in such different ways using different methods. So I'm always very supportive of people doing whatever it is that helps them become a better version of themselves. And I think, you know, but. But with each thing you get a very particular benefit. So there's like a benefit, you know, reminding yourself, having a gratitude practice and reminding yourself that you actually have a lot of beautiful things to be grateful for when times are tough. That's really helpful. But then, you know, you don't need to like pool everything into one place and say they all give you the same benefit and things do different things for you.
- [36:44]
B
I want to talk about your new book, how to Love Better the Path to Deeper Connection through Growth, Kindness and Compassion, which I freaking love.
- [36:55]
A
Oh, it is. I'm so glad.
- [36:57]
B
It is.
- [36:57]
A
So glad.
- [36:57]
B
Thank you for so, so good, honestly. And I can't imagine, I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't enjoy this. Honestly, it's. It's full of wisdom on every page. Okay. And I guess the segue between talking about meditation and your new book is this idea that meditation has transformed your relationship with your wife.
- [37:20]
A
Totally.
- [37:20]
B
How has meditation impacted your relationship?
- [37:26]
A
Yeah, so I did this, you know, that first 10 day meditation course. That was the summer of 2012 when I did that first course. Remember what I said earlier? Summer of 2011 was when I hit my rock bottom moment, almost lost my life. And then about six months later, a friend of mine, he did that same course in India and he came out raving about. It was just, you know, talking about love, compassion and goodwill. And this was the same person that I used to party really hard with in college. So I was shocked. I was shocked that he was, you know, like felt so inspired by it. And I ended up signing up because I knew that I was even without even thinking of the word healing, I knew that I was in a transitional moment. So I went into it for personal healing. And I was shocked to see that it revealed the truth to me. I started seeing that a lot of my relationships were just super shallow and surface level, they were just like, you know, I was barely connecting with people, barely connecting with my, my wife, who was my girlfriend at the time. You know, my relationship with my parents was very stagnant. Same thing with my brother and my sister and with my friends as well. I was just like caught in this loop where I'm just repeating the motions as opposed to like really delivering presence into every sort of moment where people, you know, were interacting. And I not only felt sadness about that, but I also felt inspired. I was like, oh, I can change this. And as I kept meditating and developing my own self awareness, I realized that I have more power in these situations. Like I have the power to be present, I have the power to say something different. I have the power to be honest, to be vulnerable. And I started noticing that like as soon as my wife and I started meditating. She started meditating. In 2013, our relationship slowly started developing harmony. Where before that. The first six years of our relationship felt like utter chaos. You know, like it was just like the blame game, constantly pointing fingers. We felt this strong pull towards each other. We wanted to be together, but we didn't know how to be together. We didn't know how to care for each other. And it was through meditating that we started developing emotional maturity. We started developing self awareness. And then intuitively we started understanding how to communicate better with each other.
- [39:49]
B
What you just said, that reminded me of the gorgeous piece that you write in the introduction. After just two weeks of officially being a couple, we told each other, I love you. Both of us were telling the truth, but neither of us realized yet that love is more than a feeling. It's a practice that needs intention, care and skill. Yeah, that's quite a common misconception, isn't it?
- [40:15]
A
Absolutely.
- [40:16]
B
Love is more than a feeling.
- [40:17]
A
Absolutely. I think we go, we go into love often with attachment and with this, you know, this feeling of like, okay, I want to be with you because you make me feel great. But then when I don't feel good, I want to immediately blame it on you. And sometimes your partner will do Something that they should apologize for. But a lot of times, and that's when my wife and I started finding out, was that we were constantly arguing. But what we realized was that a lot of that was just a failure in communication where we were not telling each other and ourselves how our emotions were changing through the day. And that was one of the sort of first things we really started developing. This happened especially after our first, the first 30 day course that we both sat. When we came back, we realized we were like, hey, we need to just tell each other, like in the morning, like, how do you feel? Because sometimes you wake up in the morning, you know, you know, like that you feel great, you're ready to take on a day, your mind feels relatively balanced. And other times you wake up in the morning and you're like, I don't feel that good. You know, I feel pretty tired, pretty lethargic. And giving each other that information and naming it for ourselves was so helpful. And then we started doing that also again sometime in the early afternoon and just letting each other know, like, oh, I feel good, or I don't feel good, or, you know, and that way we are cognizant of, like, not only where my partner stands and where I stand, but how can we give each other support? And we started noticing that our arguments decreased dramatically and it wasn't anymore like, oh, if I don't feel good, I need to figure out a way to blame this on you. Because the mind will jump through hoops. Like, it'll jump through all these, like, you know, trying to build and resurface old narratives so that it tries to figure out a way to place this blame onto someone else. But instead we start taking ownership and it's like, oh, actually, I just didn't wake up. I didn't feel that good today. And there's not really a big reason for it, but I'm going to be aware of it, I'm going to treat myself gently and I'm going to make sure to not project it onto you.
- [42:23]
B
One of the things you said that meditation gave you is this insight that you could be honest. And as I read this book and as I think about your work, I would say honesty is an underlying theme that permeates all of it totally. Like, you cannot change your life unless you're honest, right? You cannot change your relationship unless you're being honest. So talk a little bit about honesty and this idea that we project often in relationships and why it's so important to be honest both with ourselves and with our partner.
- [43:00]
A
The main reason is because dishonesty creates distance, where if you're dishonest with yourself, you're literally creating distance between you and yourself. And that distance will emerge as tension. When you're being dishonest in your relationship, you're creating distance between you and your partner. And that is something that when the both of us started meditating, it was like the beginning of it was, you know, we finished meditation retreats and we'd come back home and we're sort of reevaluating our relationship, apologizing for past wrongs, and also just telling each other more of the truth because we were both leaving a ton out. And I think that's something that, like, just literally it was hard to face the truth, but it also brought us way closer together. So dishonesty, internally and externally, it just creates distance.
- [43:49]
B
Okay. You also mentioned the importance of communication relationships. Okay. But honesty is really important here, isn't it? So of course we want to be honest with our partner, but it's very hard to be honest with our partner if we're being dishonest with ourselves.
- [44:06]
A
Totally.
- [44:07]
B
I believe that many people are day to day dishonest with themselves all the time and they don't even realize. Totally, they're being dishonest. What you said about, you know, when you're dishonest, you create distance. The way I think about it, I'm always thinking about how do you help people change their behaviors? How do you make these changes last in the long term? I'm always thinking about what is the root cause? Why is it that everyone wants health and happiness and better relationships, yet they're not doing the things that they know will lead to better health, happiness and relationships. Right.
- [44:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [44:45]
B
And I think if you were going to really simplify, it's the language I use, which is not dissimilar to the language you're using, is, you know, you have who you really are. Okay. That's the core of who you, who you really are as a human being. And then you've got the person who you are being out there in the world.
- [45:05]
A
Yeah.
- [45:07]
B
The greater the separation between those two things, the greater the void. And it's that void in which all of your unhelpful behaviors start to come from. Like, I really believe that.
- [45:20]
A
I love that hypothesis.
- [45:22]
B
You know what I mean?
- [45:22]
A
Yeah.
- [45:23]
B
I kind of feel that it's that void and the more you close it. And of course we can be fearful to do that. We don't know what it feels like to be honest.
- [45:31]
A
So do you notice too. So because you're creating these almost these two figures, the real you and who you're out there being, when you notice that your nervous system really relaxes when the performance stops. Like, there are certain people in your life who you can be around. You can just be your raw, real self, and you just feel so calm around them. Why? Because you don't have to perform for them.
- [45:56]
B
Exactly.
- [45:57]
A
Right. And the same thing, like with your partner or whomever. Like you want to be around someone where there's. You don't have to like, put a guard up or put on any type of performance.
- [46:05]
B
Yeah, 100%. We often see these, these parts of our life as separate. Okay, I'll be honest here at work. I'll be honest here, or I won't be honest at work or whatever, but I'll be honest in my relationship. So I'll say what I need to at work, but I'll make sure I'm honest with my wife, for example. I don't know what you think about this. Right. But more and more, I think that kind of separation I'm not sure exists. Like, I'm not saying that you have to be, you know, fully transparent and honest about everything with your colleagues. Right. And overshare. I'm not saying that.
- [46:39]
A
Right.
- [46:40]
B
But I think it goes back to those three things. You were talking about, what meditation has given you your particular practice. Self awareness, non reactivity and compassion.
- [46:47]
A
Right.
- [46:48]
B
At least if you have the self awareness at work to know. You know what? I don't need to share everything here. It's not the right environment.
- [46:55]
A
Totally. Totally.
- [46:56]
B
That's different from kidding yourself that you're being honest when you're not.
- [47:00]
A
Totally. Totally. And I think that's the thing about honesty is that we have to understand that things aren't just black and white. Right. It isn't like, oh, I have to tell all of my truth all the time every time someone asks a question. Because no, you have some things that are just for, like, you know, between you and your partner and between. Or you and your parents and whatnot. So you don't need to, you know, throw your truth all over the world all the time. Instead, there's gonna be a balance. So with each truth, with every sort of self development lesson or things that we're coming across, everything has to be dealt with balance. And I think that's really important for people to understand.
- [47:37]
B
I want to get into the ingredients of a good relationship, but I can't help thinking about your progression to meditation and honesty. So that low point as it were, was the summer of 2011 for you, and then in the summer of 2012. So 12 months later, for a variety of reasons, you end up going deep into meditation. But I think you said your wife didn't start until 2013, the year after.
- [48:07]
A
Yeah.
- [48:07]
B
Okay. So you're in a relationship, you got a certain dynamic.
- [48:10]
A
Yeah.
- [48:11]
B
Okay. And then you are starting to go on the process of change.
- [48:16]
A
Yeah.
- [48:17]
B
So in relationships, if one party is going on the process of change and the other one is not, the dynamic starts to change.
- [48:27]
A
It totally shook up the house. Like, not even the house. Our tiny little apartment that we lived in in Crown Heights, Brooklyn was on fire. Yeah. It was interesting because she knew and she was happy. She knew that I wanted to just become a better version of myself. But very intuitively she felt that pull as well. Like she wanted to go meditate, she wanted to go do a 10 day course. But at the time she was working as a scientist and working, you know, like 50 hours a week. So she had so, so many responsibilities. So she had to wait until March of 2013 to do her first course. And during that time period I ended up doing. So I did my first one In July of 2012, I did my second one in September of 2012, and then I did my third one with her in March. And my third one was her first one. And it was like a breath of fresh air for her because she was happy for me and supportive, but she wanted to really try it for herself. And there was also another transitional moment where in 2015 was when I started meditating daily. And at first she was like, you know, I'm too busy. And she did, she didn't have the time for it, but then she watched as I just didn't give up. I was like, you know, putting in my two hours. Putting in my two hours. And then she started joining me for an hour a day. And she did that for a number of months. But it was interesting that that sort of transitional moment because she was kind of like watching me to see if I was really going to stick to it. Like, is he really going to like cement this, you know, aspect of meditating daily into. Because I'm taking away from our time together, you know, like, she's so busy and the way that we were shape, our morning and our evening totally changed because of meditating two hours a day.
- [50:23]
B
Yeah. This is so fascinating. Okay, Right. So number one, is she doing the same type of meditation as you?
- [50:30]
A
Yeah, same type, yeah.
- [50:31]
B
Okay. So this two hours that you do a day can you just paint a picture of what sort of time that happens in your day. Not when you're traveling, but when you're at home. This episode is sponsored by Thriver, the app that helps you listen to your blood and get personalized guidance on how to optimize your health and fitness. Now I think regular blood tests can be a really valuable tool that can help tell us which lifestyle changes are working and where we might want to make changes. And Thriver is the perfect tool to help us do that. You just take a blood test at home, which is really easy. I do it regularly. Just a simple device you stick on your arm that draws blood automatically. Easy, quick, pain free, even if you're not great with needles. And then you just send it off and get all of your results in a matter of days in an easy to understand app. And all of those results come with personalized lifestyle advice from doctors. You can then test again in a few months time and learn what's working well and where you might want to make some changes. For example, your average blood sugar, known as your HBA1C I think is a really important marker that gives you information on the state of your metabolic health and I personally like to check it every three to six months. The Thriver app is what I use to help me do this and it offers many different options, general, non specific blood testing or you can get more focused on things like hormonal health, sports performance, nutrient levels. And also with Thriver you can test your APOB levels, a much more reliable indicator for your risk of heart disease than standard cholesterol tests. For listeners of my show, Thriver are offering an exclusive offer of 20% off your first Thriver Cycle when you enter the promo code LIVEMORE at checkout. Just visit Thriver Co to get started today. That's T H R I V A CO Thriver listen to your blood Just wanted to take a moment to tell you about my first ever UK Theatre tour taking place this March. So I've just finished two days rehearsing for the show with the entire tour team, the director, video tech, sound crew, tour manager, and I'm even more excited for these live shows than I was when I first announced the tour. Now if you enjoy listening to my podcast, I think you are going to love coming to this tour. Don't think of it like a book tour. Think of it as an immersive, transformative, fun evening where you will walk away with a personalized blueprint of the things you need to work on in your own life. It's not just me on a stage talking to you. There will be lots of interactive moments and a few surprises. Now I know that many of you listen to this podcast to learn things that will help you thrive, but I also know that at times it can feel hard. On this tour you are going to be in a room with other people who are interested in the same things as you are, which will feel incredibly special and give you a massive boost. These events are going to be fun, inspirational, educational and hopefully will be the springboard you need to take action as we move out of winter and get into spring. There are 14 shows all around the UK. The two warm up dates in Wilmslow and the London Lyceum date has just sold out. So don't delay if you plan on picking up tickets. All details can be seen at Dr. Chatterjee.com forward/events. So get your friends together, make a night of it and I hope to see you in person in just a few weeks.
- [54:46]
A
When we're at home, I mean usually it's at probably like 9 in the morning.
- [54:51]
B
And what time do you normally wake up?
- [54:52]
A
Like eight.
- [54:53]
B
So you wake up about eight?
- [54:54]
A
Yeah. And then we kind of like, you know, just wake up, drink some hot water, like look at some messages real quick and then hop on the cushion.
- [55:03]
B
So nine till ten, roughly. You're meditating. Is your wife also meditating then?
- [55:07]
A
Yeah, usually. And sometimes in the same room. Yeah, we have a meditation room in our house, just an empty room that we just put our cushions in.
- [55:16]
B
That's a good name, the meditation room. It's got two meditation cushions there. I'm down with that.
- [55:20]
A
Yeah, yeah. When we have friends over who also meditate, they like, you know, we'll have dinner and then people come and we'll.
- [55:25]
B
So the morning one I get right because I guess I'm a morning person. Although by the time you wake up, I've already been out for three or four hours by that time. But tell me about the evening meditation.
- [55:38]
A
The evening one is interesting where it'll land anytime between late afternoon and late evening. It just depends on like if I have a ton of meetings because I work with so many people who are on the west coast. So I'll have a lot of meetings that are like later on in the day because I live on the east coast so they're three hours behind. So sometimes I'll meditate my second set at 4 in the afternoon, 4 to 5pm Sometime before dinner, sometimes it's after. Sometimes it'll be like from 10pm to 11pm and do you ever feel that.
- [56:08]
B
You'Re gonna fall asleep?
- [56:11]
A
Sometimes I'll spend a whole hour fighting off sleep and I'll make sure. But I go into it with determination. I know I want something out of it, and I want to just be. Observe.
- [56:23]
B
It's really interesting hearing your relationship with meditation and also your wife initially at least, wondering, is he gonna do this? Is he gonna stay there?
- [56:33]
A
Yeah. How long?
- [56:34]
B
When's he gonna run out of steam here?
- [56:35]
A
Right.
- [56:36]
B
But there's another point that I think for me comes up there, which is one of the reasons I think we struggle with our behaviors in the long term, that our desired behaviors, let's say, is that we haven't really got clarity on what we want and why we want to do it. Now, I genuinely believe that for most people, when you truly decide with all of you, your mind, body and soul that I'm gonna do this, it happens.
- [57:05]
A
That's like, well, those are one of my favorite moments in life. And they don't happen all the time.
- [57:10]
B
No.
- [57:10]
A
You know, these moments where it's like, you're gonna make a big change and you feel almost like an elephant putting his leg down. It's just like, boom. Like I'm putting down my strong determination and I'm gonna go in this direction no matter what. And I felt that in that, you know, I felt like this was something I really wanted to be, to really be part of my life. And I was also. I was incentivized. Like, I did my. I did a number of 10 day courses, and I knew there was a 20 day course that I wanted to take. To take that 20 day course, you have to. One of the requirements is to meditate at least, you know, two hours a day for two years. And I was like, okay, well, I need to start that two year process of bringing meditation into my daily life. So that was what initially inspired me because I was like, I want to go deeper into this experiment. And. And that's also why, you know, so I back to 2011, like, I stopped all the hard drugs, like, anything that would endanger my life, like cocaine and just taking random pills and all this stuff. But I still was drinking alcohol and smoking marijuana. But then in 2016, I was like, you know, done. I was like, I don't even like alcohol anymore. I don't like the way marijuana makes me feel. And I wanted. And my wife and I had been talking about it for a while where we both wanted to just live totally clean lives. And that was an interesting moment too. Cause that kind of Shook up our household because my wife was ready before I was. She was like, also done with alcohol, also done with marijuana. And we tried it for a period of three months where we just didn't consume anything. And then I told her. I was like, I'm feeling a lot of tension around this because I was a little worried about my friendship dynamics because I didn't realize how much of friendship was ritualistic, where it was like, we're gonna, like, smoke a joint together or we're gonna drink alcohol together. And I was worried that, like, I was gonna miss out on communing with my. With my people, with my friends. And.
- [59:16]
B
And many people are worried about this. So what happened there?
- [59:19]
A
So I went. So we did three. Three months totally sober. And I told her. I was like, hey, I was like, I'm feeling. I'm feeling pretty stressed. Like, I think I'm gonna start smoking again. I know I don't even want to, but I just. I just almost as a. To just try it out and see how it feels and see what it's like with my friendships and whatnot. And then as soon as I started, I was like, oh, I hate this. I actually don't, like. I don't like smoking at all. And I ended up smoking for, like, two more months.
- [59:46]
B
This is smoking weed?
- [59:47]
A
Yeah, smoking weed. Ended smoking for, like, two more months. And then I stopped completely because I was like, listen, like, my friends, they're going to, like, if they're really my friends, they're going to love me no matter what, and we'll just figure it out. We'll just, like, you know, continue developing our relationship without. Without these intoxicants as part of it. And. And that's what ended up happening. Like, the first six months of being, you know, without any type of intoxicant, it was challenging because I just learned. I had to realize that, like, it actually wasn't about my friends. It was about my own perception of myself. Like, who am I when I'm in this bar celebrating someone else's birthday? Why do I feel like I even need to drink to be part of. Like, I actually don't need to drink. If I really feel that insecure. I can just hold a cup with water or, like, Sprite or something, you know, in it. And then over time, it just got a lot easier to just exist in these situations where other people are drinking alcohol. And then eventually I was having fun, too, so it became pretty normal to just exist without it.
- [60:49]
B
So fascinating. I want to keep going down that rabbit hole, but I'm going to move this on back to relationships. Okay. Because you do have this wonderful new book out.
- [60:59]
A
It was funny because when we were talking about our books earlier and you were telling me how your newest book is, like, your favorite one, and, like, it's just, you know, that it. You put the work into it. And with this one, in a similar manner, I needed the time to not just develop myself as a writer and, like, understand how to explain myself in an accessible and clear manner, but also allow meditating to continue marinating in my life. Because I noticed these changes in 2020 that, like, meditating was improving my relationship with my wife, but allowing that extra time to really see the way, this understanding and embrace of this law of impermanence and bringing that quality into our relationship and understanding how that can help us relieve ourselves of these attachments that were manifesting as control, manifesting as, like, you know, blame, manifesting in these. In these ways where we're creating struggle for each other. Us doubling down on this, like, the path of growth, on the path of embracing impermanence has just helped us not develop a relationship around attachments, but instead develop a relationship around commitments.
- [62:15]
B
You can tell when you read this book that there is a real clarity of thought. Thank you. It sounds as though meditation is a big reason why you have this clarity.
- [62:26]
A
Oh, it helps tremendously. Yeah.
- [62:29]
B
In terms of relationships. Right. And this. What you make the case that there is kind of these three key ingredients to relationships. Okay. So can you talk about them?
- [62:42]
A
Absolutely. So I think there's three things that are really important. So one is kindness, like, being able to be. To treat each other with a degree of kindness and sweetness. Because you. When you're in proximity with somebody, whether that's your roommate or your partner, whoever's closest to you, that person is usually going to get the best version of you and also the worst version of you. So when you understand that, you want to make sure that you're not just giving the worst version of yourself to your partner, that you're also, you know, giving them sweetness, giving them your best, trying your best to just, you know, bring that best step into the relationship with your best foot forward. The other aspect that's really important is growth. Like, when you're in a relationship, you're basically accepting that you're gonna have to grow, because relationships aren't just about understanding, like, okay, that this is gonna just make my life easier and better, and. And now everything's okay. It's not like that at all. When you go into a relationship. Yes. Your partner should accept you as you are. But you're also going to become very aware of where you need to grow as an individual, what habits you need to cultivate, what aspects of character do you need to refine? Do you need more patience? Do you need more compassion? Do you need to work on your listening? Like, as human beings, when you're in a relationship, that is the clearest mirror you're ever going to face. And I think that's been. I'm grateful that I've been in a relationship so long because it clearly helps me see my defects. And not in a way where, you know, my wife is like, you gotta change this and that. It's more so like, I see them, you see them, and now I'm gonna slowly chip away at them over time. And the third element that's really, really critical is compassion. But a very specific type of compassion, the type where you're able to step outside of your perspective, to see the perspective of another person. Because only through the ability to really step outside of your shoes and put yourself in the shoes of another, are you going to be able to come to a new level of understanding of each other and be able to solve your arguments.
- [64:55]
B
Yeah, love that. So kindness, growth and compassion. One of the questions I did have for you was, what's the difference between kindness and compassion? Because I think many of us kind of go with the sort of the same thing. Right. But I think you described there how it's. It's quite different kindness there, I think, being sweet to your partner.
- [65:14]
A
Right.
- [65:15]
B
Making sure they're not getting the worst of you.
- [65:17]
A
Exactly.
- [65:18]
B
I think you're. You're spot on with that. Yeah. Unfortunately, that is the truth. People closest to us often see the worst of us. But that idea of compassion being your ability to step outside of your own perspective. Yeah, that's challenging for a lot of people.
- [65:35]
A
It's really challenging. But think about the way that we normally approach arguments. We usually approach arguments in a way where each person is trying to win and it becomes a battle. And when you're both trying to win, you actually both lose. You're automatically both losing, because an argument is not a place where you're trying to really dominate the narrative. The point of what an argument's trying to show you is that there's something here that is almost like a wall between your connection. And if you're able to really both observe it, understand it, understand each other, then that wall will dissolve and help you be closer together. So when an argument appears, don't try to Win the argument. What your goal should really be is understand each other. So take your time to, you know, both of you can practice selfless listening, where you share how the series of events worked for you. I'll do my best to listen, and then you give me that same opportunity. I'll share how the series of events went for me. And when you were both able to really understand that you know where each other's emotions are coming from, a lot of the tension just fizzles out.
- [66:49]
B
One of my favorite chapters in this book is chapter seven, the Art of Arguing. That's a very seductive and compelling title for that chapter, the Art of Arguing. And, you know, there's a bit in there where. In that chapter where you write, when a fight arises, it does not necessarily mean that the two of you are not right for each other. I love that. Okay. Because thinking about these common societal myths.
- [67:19]
A
Oh, gosh, yeah. That exist about relationships, the classic romantic comedy.
- [67:24]
B
Yeah. You could probably list a whole bunch, and you do in the book, but I guess one of them would be that in the perfect relationship, if there is such a thing as the perfect relationship, okay, there shouldn't be any fights. And you categorically say in the book that's not the case. And there's a whole chapter dedicated to this idea of arguing.
- [67:44]
A
Yeah, I mean, that attachment to perfection is absolutely corrosive. Whether it's the way you see yourself or the way you're trying to live a perfect life and show up in a perfect way, or the same thing where you expect perfection out of your relationship, that attachment to perfection will make you throw away a good partner. Because arguments are going to happen. Why? Because perception is imperfect. And the way we use language is imperfect. Like, it's so hard to have everyone understand you perfectly all the time. So there are going to be miscommunications. And even outside of miscommunications, there are going to be times where someone just makes a mistake and they do something that's wrong. And then you have to explain and, you know, receive apologies and be able to reconnect in a way that feels good to the both of you. So I think really embracing the truth that arguments are not a sign that something's wrong. They're actually just opportunities for you to get closer together to each other.
- [68:46]
B
Perception is imperfect. Yeah, that's really powerful. Perception is imperfect. When you said that, my mind immediately went to. Well, to a couple of places. One is this idea that I think about a lot, which is, what is reality? What is the reality of a Situation. You know, the example I often use is if a husband and wife are having a disagreement around a table, what happens? Well, it kind of depends who you ask, right?
- [69:30]
A
Yeah.
- [69:31]
B
If you ask five minutes after what happened, you ask the husband, they will give you a report that is probably accurate from their perspective, from their imperfect perspective. Talk to his wife and they'll give you another accurate report of what happens from that perspective. This idea that you talk about perspective is impermanent. Right. And so why that's such a powerful idea for me is this idea that actually there are multiple interpretations of any given situation.
- [70:02]
A
Absolutely.
- [70:03]
B
And for me, in my life at least, and in my relationship with my wife, I would say that once I understood that, the broader idea that once I understood that every situation is pretty much neutral and it's the story that I choose to put onto it.
- [70:18]
A
Yeah.
- [70:19]
B
And I use those words intentionally. The story that I choose to put onto it. Right. Is what determines its outcome. So the first thing when you said that, I thought about that. The other thing I thought about was this idea that we see the world through the state of our nervous system. Right. So the problem today is that many people are feeling chronically stressed and they're burnt out. Right. So they're wired, their nervous systems are fully amped up, so they're looking for threat everywhere.
- [70:48]
A
Totally.
- [70:48]
B
So therefore, if you come back from work, and this is why I think your practice and your wife's practice of meditation is so important. Right. Because you develop that non reactivity, that self awareness. But if you don't have your own version of that, you come back from work with all the stress of the day, your partner says something, you're not seeing it as it is, you're seeing it as you are. Right. And so you interpret that as threats. Well, maybe it was a neutral comment that you chose to look at it, but that was all you.
- [71:18]
A
Yeah.
- [71:19]
B
What's your perspective on that?
- [71:21]
A
I completely agree. And now check it out. So perception is not just imperfect, but perception is also evaluation. You're literally evaluating something very quickly and that evaluation is driven by whatever happened to you in the past. So your perception is literally like you're literally taking the lens of the past and you're seeing the present through that. So that makes it very difficult to be objective. I mean, you're literally like, you're a doctor, you know how to, to be able to find, to be able to create objectivity. It requires like randomized trials, it requires like clinical studies. Like, you know, like you have to really create a situation to Be able to produce objective results. Now, to do that with the human mind, it's possible for the human mind to be objective, but it requires a lot of intentional training. Like, a lot. Because our immediate sort of mode is to have a very tilted and, yeah, past coded perception. So we have to be very careful. Because it's so easy to take the simple sentence that someone says and just because someone said something to us that was mean at work. And then you come home and you end up. You know, that was the thing that sent you over the edge, the tipping point. And. And you took that as fuel. Fuel for the agitation you were already feeling to make your agitation bigger. Like every emotion. Every emotion is like an invitation. You know, if someone's calm around you, you. They're inviting you to be calm with them. If someone's really angry around you, like, you can join them in their anger. And it's very easy to do that.
- [72:58]
B
The book's called how to Love Better. What does the word love mean to you?
- [73:04]
A
I think it means so many things. I mean, I talk about that in one of the chapters in the book, but. So love is not only this really powerful feeling that we have that makes us, like, feel intuitively connected with another human being, but love is also the clearest perception. Like it is when. When you're. When your mind is stunningly clear. Let's take the apex of love, which is unconditional, right? When. When we take. When we think about the sort of the great avatars of human history, you know, beings like the Buddha or Jesus, they were beings of unconditional love where they could look upon the world and see no one as an enemy. No one was an enemy. No one was a threat. They just looked upon the world with compassion. So that is like the apex of love. When you're in a relationship, you have a little microcosm of that. It's almost like a training where you can start developing and seeing and understanding that. Yeah, right. The person in front of you is someone you really care for, and you don't see them as an enemy. And then sometimes that defensiveness, that survival mode of the past will try to make you see your partner as an enemy, but they're not. They're just someone where, you know, you may be having some difficulty or another with them. But through communication, you can be able to resolve that. Through making your commitments to each other clear, you can also resolve it. And not living from a place of attachment and control, it just helps. You know, you can support each other's freedom, but it's interesting how that, that apex of love that we understand, you know, even like you have. There are so many different. In different traditions, you have these different avatars of, of the apex of what it could be to be a human being. And that unconditional love is definitely something to strive for. But you get a sampling of that in your relationship.
- [75:02]
B
Yeah. Is this book primarily for people's intimate relationships or can principles from it be applied to your relationships with your friends and your colleagues and your wider community? Because the reason I ask that question is that word love in certain societies is quite conditioned to only being relevant in certain situations.
- [75:27]
A
Right.
- [75:28]
B
So, for example, I would say in British society, certainly my experience of British society, which is my whole life, I would say that we don't tend to talk that much or that it doesn't come easy for us to talk about loving our friends.
- [75:44]
A
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [75:46]
B
But it's, you know, it's very accepted to talk about loving your partner.
- [75:50]
A
Yeah.
- [75:50]
B
So, you know, just maybe unpack that a little bit, if you can.
- [75:53]
A
Yeah. I think it's the, the word, the word love just means that it's like, you're really important to me. Like, I really, really profoundly care for you and your well being. And you can feel that for a lot of people, I think obviously you have the intimate relationship with your partner. But then I remember back in like 20, I think it was like 2014, when like, there was just a big shift. And I don't know if it was like in the small culture of my friend groups where like, we all became okay with like, you know, telling your boy, like, I love you, you know, like letting your friends know, like, you really care for them. And even though there's no intimate quality with that, it was just like, wow. Like my friends, especially the ones who I've been friends with since college or since elementary school, like, these people are so important to me and I want them to know that I love them. But I think with this book I've really focused on relationships, you know, with your partner because it feels like that exemplifies all these key methods and rules and it shows where the blocks can be that stop any relationships from having harmony. So I think in the intimate partnership dynamic, you can see and start understanding that like, the same rules really apply for, you know, you and your roommate. And like, because whoever you're, like what I mentioned before, whoever you're in proximity to, whether you're like living with your family, your roommate, your friends or your partner, these things are gonna apply because when you're in proximity with someone, they're your biggest mirror and you're in relationship with them.
- [77:33]
B
And I guess taking it one step further, that analogy that I used before about if you can meditate on a busy train, if I can meditate when my kids are playing in the same room around me, that it's kind of weight training for your mind. I guess you could apply the same principle with the things you write about. If you get it right in your intimate relationship, you can get it right anywhere.
- [77:58]
A
Yeah, exactly. Your self awareness isn't gonna run out.
- [78:01]
B
A lot of us probably don't argue with our friends that much, but we might do with our partner. So if you can figure it out with your intimate partner, that's the hardest one.
- [78:10]
A
Yeah.
- [78:10]
B
And that's the hardest one. I think your ability to communicate calmly with your friends, it just as a natural consequence will get better.
- [78:19]
A
Yeah.
- [78:20]
B
Yeah.
- [78:21]
A
And I think. Yeah. I mean your relationship, it's interesting because it should bring some ease to your life, but it's not gonna make life itself easy. Like it in some ways, like relationship has been a training ground.
- [78:34]
B
Yeah.
- [78:34]
A
You know, and I think I'm grateful for that because I not only find so much joy from being with my wife, but we grew up together, like literally grew up together.
- [78:45]
B
Yeah. Interesting what you said before about the past having a hold of us and impacting our relationships. I've got a practice that I do with my wife that I wonder if I could share with you and get your take on it. You've written this wonderful book on relationships and I wonder what you think of this. It's a practice called starting with zero. And it's a practice that your partner doesn't need to know that you're doing okay. And all that it is is it's this experiment to yourself to see how much the past is influencing your present day interaction.
- [79:24]
A
Yes.
- [79:24]
B
So every few months I'll do this with my wife vids. I will go for the next seven days. Rangan, every time you interact with her, you're going to try and imagine this is the first time you've ever met her. And you know, some people push back and go, it's impossible. You can't do it. I'm like, it's not about whether it's possible or not. It's an experiment to go. If you enter every interaction like that, not preconditioned by the past. So someone asking you to empty the dishwasher doesn't mean five things that you think it means. It's just a simple request. Can you help me with the dishwasher, for example. I tell you, it's game changing. Right. And you could do it with anyone. It's game changing because you realize, oh, wow, we're all making these assumptions all the time. So you're the relationship expert. Diego, you've written this wonderful book. What's your take on my starting with zero exercise?
- [80:21]
A
I think that's beautiful. I've never thought about that. And just entering into a moment where you're basically charging yourself up to have more presence, especially. Cause if you're gonna meet someone new, you're not defaulting. Right. You're just like. You have no data to work on. This is like a brand new person. And usually when you're meeting a brand new person, you are gonna be the best version of yourself.
- [80:44]
B
Yeah. And to be clear, I'm not asking you her name or asking her out on a date or anything like that. I'm not taking it to that extreme. It's more, you know, I've just met her. She's saying something. Oh, yeah. I'm gonna take it at face value.
- [80:57]
A
I love that.
- [80:58]
B
Let's get into this. Chapter seven, the Art of arg. Okay. I mean, there's so much practical gold here, honestly, in every chapter, frankly. But you have these key practices in this chapter that you say can help facilitate a smoother transition from argument to understanding.
- [81:15]
A
Yeah.
- [81:16]
B
Okay. Let's go through some of these practices. Before we do, though, you know this concept of arguing, do we have to accept that we're going to argue with our partners? Right. Or is it more that arguing might have a, for some people, a negative connotation. Right. Some of you might say arguing means that I'm emotionally triggered and, you know, I'm arguing. Whereas we could also look at it a different way, I guess what you say there, from argument to understanding. Because I guess what I hear, when I hear that is you're gonna have disagreements.
- [81:51]
A
Right.
- [81:52]
B
There's gonna be conflict.
- [81:53]
A
Yes.
- [81:53]
B
And if you can learn to navigate that conflict in a more harmonious way.
- [81:59]
A
Right.
- [81:59]
B
Your relationship's gonna be better.
- [82:01]
A
Totally. I mean, your perceptions are not always going to align. And sometimes they're gonna require discussion for you to come together and have some middle ground, some type of understanding. And I think it's, you know, Thich Nhat Hanh, the great Buddhist monk, he said that love is understanding. And it was that idea that I sort of like based this chapter on, because I've seen it clearly in my own life. Like when I. When my wife and I are having an argument. And then we take turns to really explain to each other how we're feeling, what we're thinking, and how the process of events moved for the both of us. When I really understand her, I don't really feel tension towards her anymore. I'm like, oh, I see. I see what happened. And you're able to just much more easily let it go. And if you need to apologize, you apologize. But it just isn't something that you get stuck on, because stuck is agitation, stuck is tension. And when you're able to understand, like, understanding is flow. It's like fluidity. So it helps you let go.
- [83:05]
B
But I guess arguing and having conflicts in relationships is super common.
- [83:11]
A
Yeah, okay.
- [83:11]
B
And probably causes a lot of unhappiness. All kinds of tension comes in. It can impact the children. It can help out your health. Because when you have an argument with your partner and you don't feel good.
- [83:25]
A
Yeah.
- [83:26]
B
You know, you're much more likely to open the bottle of wine, go to the sugar, smoke weed, whatever it might be, whatever your mode of distraction is, you're likely to go to it more. Right. So the ability to not add fuel to the fire is really important. So let's say a couple are about to start an argument. Things have started to develop over something trivial, let's say, which doesn't feel trivial. What should they do?
- [83:58]
A
So one of the very important things to do is, like, when. So you're basically going to take turns to tell each other your story, but you're not gonna tell that story in a way where you're saying, you made me feel upset. You are doing this and that to me. You're instead gonna describe it as, I felt upset when you said X, Y, and Z. I felt upset when, you know, whatever it was that happened, happened. And in the act of framing things from your perspective, as if you're empowered in the way you feel by using I statements, I think it helps relieve that blame game to a certain degree, which can just cloud things much further. And then literally practice selfless listening. I mean, selfless listening is something you have to train yourself over time. Where it's like, I, as soon as I'm listening to you, my mind is already trying to think of some quick comeback. You know, what am I going to say right Then Instead of trying to think about what you want to say next or how you want to retort, just focus on listening. And as soon as you find your mind being diverted into another narrative, bring yourself back, refocus yourself on what your partner's actually saying. And that's literally compassion and practice. That's you trying your best to not, you know, take charge of the narrative and just see them as they are. And the other thing is like, you need to remind yourself that like, why do you feel like you're fighting a battle? Like your best friend is standing in front of you, you love this person, you share a bed with this person, so stop thinking that they're your enemy, they're actually your friend and you're just having a moment of disagreement. So these little reminders can just help, you know, ease into the understanding.
- [85:43]
B
I mean, it's so obvious when you put it like that, isn't it? I think, I can't imagine anyone would hear that and disagree. It's just in the moment. Again, coming back to your meditation practice, right? It's that daily practice which helps you with your self awareness, your non reactivity, your compassion that just then means that at 6.30pm, if things are about to kick off, you've got the awareness to go, hey, wait a minute, wait a minute, I don't need to put fuel on this fire.
- [86:14]
A
Totally, totally. Because especially if it's one person who's feeling the tension, right? They're going to say or do something to invite you into the tension. They may say something to really. That's really gonna help you kick off, right? And then. But then in these moments, that's a.
- [86:29]
B
Beautiful way to put it, to invite you into the tension.
- [86:31]
A
Yeah. And then we've had these moments where, you know, sometimes I feel tension and I wanna get into an argument with my wife and she's like, I'm not even interested, you know, like, I don't wanna fight you, like, what's going on? Tell me what you're.
- [86:41]
B
I would even say in my own house, that happened this morning. I'm quite tired at the moment. I've been on book tour, I'm traveling a lot and I can't remember what I said right? But I said something that could have escalated, something really trivial. The stupid things that married couples sometimes disagree about. But actually my wife just handled it beautifully.
- [87:05]
A
Yeah.
- [87:06]
B
So the invitation for tension, she declined it.
- [87:08]
A
And it's like, can you imagine that though? It's like you're literally approaching someone with anger and they're just like calmly sitting in their joy and they're like, oh, I see, they have compassion for your anger and they're like, tell me, like, sit down, like what's going on? You know? But they just refuse to accept the invite.
- [87:26]
B
But there's a really powerful lesson there as well. Right. Because one thing I want to talk about with you at some point is this idea that in a partnership, so let's, you know, although these principles, a lot of them are applicable to all relationships in the context of an intimate relationship relationship, husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend, whatever it might be. Okay. It's great if both parties are on the same page, Right. And they're both on the journey of self exploration and growth.
- [87:59]
A
Yeah.
- [88:00]
B
But sometimes that's not the case.
- [88:01]
A
A lot of the time it's not the case.
- [88:03]
B
Okay, so let's talk about what people can do if that's the situation. But let's assume that both people are having their own practice of self growth, whether it be meditation or a walk or journaling, whatever it might be, yoga. They're doing something to help cultivate these things within themselves. What's really interesting for me is that in a couple, all it takes is one of you to not react and take the bait. So in some ways you're saying it's like spread betting, right? You're kind of, you're increasing the chances. If one of you is doing it, it's like, hey, I'm not going to take that bait. Do you know what I mean? So it actually takes the pressure off, basically. There's going to be a lot of times where one of you is going to be in a different state and take the bait, which is a good thing.
- [88:52]
A
I think so. I mean, that's been one of my big goals for I think the past, like two years is to literally live in my own energy where I'm not going to just absorb what's happening around me. I'm not just going to join, you know, if there's like sort of chaotic energy or someone's near me who's just really angry or whatnot. Like, I don't need to be like them. I need to sit in my own energy. And what I found is like, the more often that I sit in my own energy, people will join me. People will join me in, you know, like, why not? Like, if you're really peaceful, I'm gonna happily accept your invitation to be peaceful too. So I think that's something that also is really important in your relationships, is like, try to live in your own energy. Especially when. Especially because there are times where your partner will come up to you and they're not actually trying to fight you. Right. They're just, they're trying to tell you about how disgruntled they are about something that happened at work and they're really, you know, you feel their agitation, and what they need is for you to just listen to them, you know, and not. And you don't necessarily need to say things or do things that will add to their tension or make an unnecessary argument happen. So a lot of times, if you just sit in your own energy, it just makes things better.
- [90:12]
B
These key practices that help us argue or disagree better, let's just walk through them. Okay, sure. Number one, valid perspectives. What does that mean?
- [90:22]
A
I mean, sharing your truth. Being able to really honestly share your truth and be able to tell it in a way where you are taking ownership over how you feel and letting your partner get the opportunity to see the events happen through your perspective and then giving your partner the same opportunity.
- [90:40]
B
Okay, so that, I guess, would require a couple to. Maybe not in the moment when something is escalating, maybe at a different time, say, hey, I realize that we're not arguing very well, or we're. Every time we have a disagreement, it's sort of escalating to conflict. How about next time we agree for a few ground rules? Is that the sort of thing which could be helpful, or is that a bit too formal?
- [91:07]
A
I mean, it's interesting because you can start with the formality, but then the formality can become second nature, and it just kind of melts away. So, like, in the beginning, you may need some type of formality where you're like, hey, let's try, like, I want to hear your perspective, and then let me share my perspective. And let's try not to make any judgments upon those perspectives. And then after we really hear each other, then let's try to find a common ground.
- [91:31]
B
How important is it to be aware of your own internal state and therefore be able to say, super important. Yeah. And therefore be able to say, like, when it's escalating, hey, listen, I'm feeling really triggered and tense at the moment. I'm not sure having the conversation now is going to be helpful. Is it okay if we revisit this in an hour when I feel a bit calmer, for example?
- [91:55]
A
Yeah, that's totally fine. I feel like if you're. It's. It's fine to pause. Like, it's fine to pause and be able to take a breath, like, come back to yourself and then keep going. I think one of the funniest things you were just reminding me is, like, moments where you're so, you know, agitated or triggered, but you're still saying, like, I'm not mad, but you're, like, screaming, I'm not mad.
- [92:22]
B
Don't know what you're talking about, mate.
- [92:24]
A
You know, in those moments, it's like, yeah, you have to be aware and just accept the truth. Like, yeah, I'm feeling really tense right now. And it's okay to say that. And when you both own it, like, there's something in the power of owning, even though it's temporary, owning the reality of it and saying, okay, there is anxiety passing through me. There's tension passing through me because this is the way my wife and I talk to each other now. It's not like I'm sad or it's just like there's sadness moving through me right now, you know, or I'm angry. I'm just, like. I'm just feeling tense, you know, the tension's moving through me. And talking about it in that dynamic is just more akin to reality because, like, there's never been a permanent emotion. Like, all of them are temporary. There's never been a storm in the history of the universe that's lasted forever. Like, everything is temporary.
- [93:11]
B
Yeah, that's. These key practices to help us argue. So we said valid perspectives, which you just outlined. Number two is practice selfless listening, which you've kind of. I think you've already elaborated on that. I guess, to summarize what you were saying. It's really listen with a view to understand rather than respond.
- [93:32]
A
Right. And in the actual act of listening, you're not trying to grab onto a phase and react to it. You're not trying to stop them from, you know, give them their moment to really say their perspective. And you're not really listening to retort. You're listening to really see their perspective as clearly as possible.
- [93:54]
B
Okay, number three there, be honest without being dramatic.
- [93:59]
A
I mean, we love the drama, you know, Like, I think this is great.
- [94:03]
B
I mean, you literally write straight after that. The drive to be correct can make you embellish things.
- [94:09]
A
Yeah.
- [94:09]
B
Okay, this is super interesting. Can you be honest and express yourself without going overboard or being mean? Okay, I think you need to explore this because this is, I think, really, really common.
- [94:21]
A
Yeah, I think it is common. I think when we get into these arguments, like, we do sometimes feel like we're in a tiny little war and we're really trying to win it, and we just use bigger and bigger armament, and eventually it's like too much. Like you cross a line. Like, you know, like you're taking something that could be as small as, like, arguing over what's for dinner or arguing over some petty argument that comes over, over and over again in relationships, because we usually argue about the same things and then making it into, like this huge, like, you know, moment that just doesn't need to be that big. So I think balancing out your perspective in the process by doing what we mentioned before, reminding yourself, like, this is the love of your life. This is your partner, this is your roommate. This is your best friend. Like, it's not your enemy. So make sure that what you are arguing about is just as true as possible and not some dramatic version of events that your narrative is trying to make bigger than it actually is.
- [95:20]
B
It's that theme of honesty again, isn't it always? Yeah, it's everywhere in your work. It's everywhere in self transformation. If we want to grow, if we want to move our lives forward, for whatever reason, we want to do that. It starts with honesty.
- [95:34]
A
Totally.
- [95:35]
B
In fact, you've said before, I think, that you were quite unhealthy at one point in your life, and your change to better health came from radical honesty.
- [95:46]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. That's like one of the key pillars of self love is if you really, really love yourself, then you're telling yourself the truth. And we're talking about radical honesty. Not in the sense of like, you talking to other people. It's about between you and yourself. Is the truth there binding you together?
- [96:08]
B
So what does that mean for someone? Like, you know, some people might know. What do you mean by that radical honesty with myself when it comes to health, for example. Okay, you know, what story were you telling yourself previously about your health? And then you became radically honest with yourself, which then led to you changing?
- [96:25]
A
Oh, the story. You know, nobody's ever asked me that, but the story was, I'm young, I'm fine. You know, like, I'm in my early 20s. Like, my body can handle it, and it can handle all the abuse, it can handle all the drugs, handle all the alcohol. And I was wrong. Like, I could have died so early. I could have been dead at 23. And when I came to terms with that, that, like, I almost lost my life, I started realizing I was like, I'm so unhealthy, and I was so, like, you know, overweight. And I felt like I just felt miserable in my body. And one of the first things I started doing was I started going on long walks. Like, I started walking. I started. I remember it was, you know, 2011, so wellness wasn't as big as it is now. I bought a tub of barley grass. It was like the first superfood that I had come in, you know, it was really popular back then. And even taking the barley grass, like, I would put it in some juice and drink it, and I could feel the effect of having good nutrition. Like, I wasn't eating in a way where I was really nutrifying my body. And these tiny little changes started, like, waking up my health in a way where, you know, I was just so. So unhealthy in the past.
- [97:47]
B
And you've completely transformed that.
- [97:49]
A
Yeah, to a big degree. I think I stopped. I mean, health is like, a giant spectrum. Like, you can be. You can take your health to, like, higher and higher levels. I'm pretty happy with where I am right now. I mean, I'm able to, like, run five miles, no problem. I'm able to, you know, just much stronger than I was before, and I feel good, which is like. Which was not, you know, way healthier at 37 than I was at 23.
- [98:18]
B
I was interviewed two days ago by the Times for this piece on men's health. Okay. And it was interesting. I was in a hotel room, London. I was a bit tired. So I was. You know, when we were a bit tired, sometimes we speak completely freely, don't we? Yeah.
- [98:34]
A
Yeah.
- [98:34]
B
And she was saying, rowan, we love your new book. We want to talk about it, but we want to look at it through the lens of men's health. And there's a lot of men in their 40s and 50s who may be chronically stressed have let their health go, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, we were talking about all kinds of things to do with that. Stress, testosterone, sleep deprivation, all these kind of things. So this idea that we can keep pushing it when we can't, we think we can keep getting away with it.
- [99:02]
A
I think men, particularly do take care of it later. Yeah.
- [99:05]
B
But the amount of people who I've seen over the years in my clinic who thought they could keep pushing and couldn't and they wish they'd started early. Is I. I don't know. Hundreds? Thousands, probably. But one of the things I said. I really want your take on this. Based on what you just said and in the context of what you write about in how to Love Better. Okay. I would like to be slim and attractive to my wife as we get older.
- [99:34]
A
Yeah.
- [99:36]
B
Does that make me a bad person for seeing it like that?
- [99:38]
A
No. I think every relationship is so unique, and you're like, literally, what you created with your wife is your own mini universe, like your own tiny little space that's just designed for the two of you. And if that feels important, to you, then great, do it. Because it's supporting you in feeling good and being healthy. And I think, yeah, attraction is a huge part of relationships. But I think also with the understanding that like balance, right, not just black and white, but gray, is that decay is inevitable.
- [100:10]
B
Yeah.
- [100:11]
A
So that's, that's one thing that, you know, old age is something that people struggle with. And, you know, when I think about old age, you know, like, and I think about, like I have one meditation teacher who's. He's been meditating for about 50 years and he's 70, 76. And him and his wife, you know, they're older and. But when you look into their eyes, like there is a beauty emanating from their eyes that is like, that's something to me that I want to strive for. Like, I know my wife and I are going to get old at some point, but like, as you keep meditating, as you keep developing that self awareness, as you keep having more compassion for yourself and for all beings, there's this like, clarity, this harmony that is visible in the eye because you know that this person, they're not projecting onto you. They're not judging you. They're not like thinking anything mean about you. They're just observing you as you are. And it's. To me, it's like that, that's the level of beauty. That's like so much deeper than skin.
- [101:17]
B
I absolutely love that. That's so beautiful. Back to these key practices, which I still can't get through because we keep going down beautiful rabbit holes. Okay, we've said that. So these key practices to help us move from argument to understanding, we've said valid perspectives, number one. Number two, practice selfless listening. Number three, be honest without being dramatic, number four, ask yourself if you can let it go. I like that.
- [101:44]
A
Yeah.
- [101:44]
B
What does that mean?
- [101:45]
A
Do you really need an apology? Or is it just something that shouldn't have even have been brought up in the first place? Because there are so many petty little arguments that we fall into that become bigger than they actually need to be. And sometimes it's like, oh, you know, there are so many times when my wife and I were talking, we're like, wow, that didn't matter at all. Like, I'm not even asking for an apology or something like that. Because there isn't.
- [102:07]
B
It's not even worthy of an apology.
- [102:09]
A
It's like, it's just like, wow, this is like misnamed tension. Like, I forgot to even own the fact that I didn't feel good and now I've tried to pick a fight with you to make that tension bigger. And actually, you know, I'm not trying to get an apology from you. I'm, I'm the one apologizing. I'm like, I'm sorry. I was lacking self awareness in that moment.
- [102:28]
B
Number five, take responsibility for your part in it.
- [102:32]
A
Sometimes you're definitely going to make mistakes that you need to apologize for. Or sometimes situations may arise that will reveal new things for you and your partner. Like, let's say as you get older and you know, your parents start getting sick and frail and these situations where you have to support your family start coming up more often. Like those situations have happened between my wife and I and when we're supporting her family or mine, it reveals new things and we're understanding that we need to make new commitments for these new eras of our, of our life. And sometimes in the process of learning what our new commitments are, we're going to make mistakes. So you own your part of it.
- [103:13]
B
Number six, remember, your partner is not your enemy.
- [103:16]
A
Right? Just like we talked about, like, you got to, you know, bring that kindness into, even into the argument because you don't need to, you know, you don't need to like, treat your partner with ferocity during an argument.
- [103:30]
B
Number seven, victory is not winning. Understanding is.
- [103:33]
A
Right? Love is understanding.
- [103:36]
B
Yeah. I guess a key point as we think about these things is just as we shouldn't expect the perfect relationship, which of course doesn't exist, we shouldn't also expect that we're going to listen to this conversation or read your new book and suddenly not have any conflicts anymore and not have difficult arguments. I guess what I'm getting to is even if you have the awareness from things that you people have just heard us talk about and they then this evening are starting to have an argument over something petty, even if they realize two minutes in it's not all or nothing, they can stop, can't they go, hey, actually, you know what? It's cool. It doesn't matter.
- [104:16]
A
Right?
- [104:16]
B
Do you know what I mean? It's not this black or white thinking, I think, gets us into all kinds of trouble in life.
- [104:22]
A
Totally.
- [104:22]
B
It's like even if you start down the road and put fuel on the fire, you can bring the fire extinguisher in as well.
- [104:28]
A
Yeah, yeah. And it's really. I think that's one of the biggest points of wisdom in a relationship is just understanding that there are going to be ups and downs and you need to face them as a team because that's just what Life is like, even if there's so much harmony between the two of you, what if there are really difficult family members and are really difficult challenges with work? Like, there are so many situations that you just cannot control, and not all of them are going to be good. So problems will arise. But how do you face those problems?
- [105:03]
B
One of the key things you talk about throughout this book and when you talk about your meditation practice, and I know it's heavily influenced by Buddhism, I think non attachment. I had this question for you, Diego. So one of my intentions for 2025 is to try and give without expectation.
- [105:30]
A
Beautiful.
- [105:31]
B
Okay. So that's probably one of my big intentions for this year. It's like, how often can I give with no expectation of anything in return? And it's a really. It's very freeing and it's really beautiful way to try and live. It really is. And so far, so good. Okay, how does that fit in an intimate relationship? Right. Because if we take non attachment to its extreme, non attachment would be, I can be with this person and I'm not expecting anything in return from this person. Whereas in reality, I guess we probably do have certain expectations of our partner. So how do you help solve that potential conundrum?
- [106:16]
A
You have to. When you go into a relationship, both people are going to have to work on giving and receiving. Like, that is something where, you know, my wife and I, we realized that we were in a dynamic where, like, she was really good at giving and I struggled with receiving, where for some reason, you know, through growing up and having very little, it just felt it was hard for me to receive anything from other people, especially someone who was very close to me. And I think when you are able to balance that out and see where you need to put energy into your development. And I started intentionally working on receiving, I was able to better receive the love that she was giving in my direction. And I think it's the same thing for both people where you're going to be either more of a giver, more of a receiver, but when you're intentionally trying to balance that out and you get into a situation where you're both intentionally giving to each other without necessarily being prompted to give, then you're both going to have more than what you even could have expected.
- [107:20]
B
Is it okay to have expectations of your partner?
- [107:23]
A
It's better not. Expectations are really tricky, slippery, and sometimes they become silent expectations where you're literally like creating a trap for someone and they just fall into it. Like you're falling into it, and they fall into it. So it's better to just communicate. Just, like, if you have things that can support your happiness, then, like, you own your happiness. It's up to you to make yourself happy. Your partner can support your happiness, so. But let them know how you like your happiness to be supported. Let them know what your needs are and, you know, and they can do their best.
- [107:54]
B
It all comes down to communication.
- [107:56]
A
Yeah.
- [107:56]
B
I mean, one thing I've said before is that I think most relationships conflict comes from unmet expectations that were never, ever expressed.
- [108:09]
A
Exactly. Like, I can't read your mind. You can be together for such a long time and not be able to know exactly what your partner needs because the person that you fell in love with on day one is not the same person on day 1,000. Like, they're going to evolve over time. Like, you're going to, you know, your preferences and what your likes, your dislikes. They're just gonna mold and shift over time. So be vocal about the way you're growing.
- [108:38]
B
Yeah. It's interesting, when I was reading your book, there was a couple of similarities between our lives. It sounds as though you've been with your now wife for 17. 18.
- [108:47]
A
Yeah, it's like 18 years. Yeah.
- [108:50]
B
I've been married for just over 17 years now. So quite similar, I guess, in length of time. We got married after eight months.
- [108:58]
A
Eight months. Wow. Y'all are crazy.
- [109:00]
B
It was total whirlwind romance.
- [109:02]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [109:03]
B
I went a bit crazy. Propose after three months. And, you know, we've learned a lot since then, basically. But it's interesting, as I was reflecting on your journey with your wife and my own journey with my wife, I kind of feel that the relationship is always changing.
- [109:23]
A
Yeah.
- [109:23]
B
The relationship from 17 years ago is not the same. I almost feel that in some ways we're on our fourth or fifth version.
- [109:31]
A
Yes.
- [109:32]
B
Of being in a marriage or being in a relationship.
- [109:34]
A
Yeah. No, it feels like different chapters. Like, I feel like my wife and I just slipped into this new chapter where, like, it's easier for us. Like, we've being able to build these sort of this culture in our relationship so that we can have more harmony without stumbling on each other's perceptions so much. And now we're, like, in much more of a flow state of a relationship where, like, we're just having a lot more joy. Because the first. I mean, the first what, like six. Six to like, 10 years of our relationship were very challenging. And they're less. I mean, we still have arguments and whatnot, but, like, we just deal with them with a Lot more ease together.
- [110:16]
B
Before we finish, I just want to ask you about your pen name, Young Pueblo.
- [110:21]
A
Yeah.
- [110:21]
B
Okay, so online with this book on your Instagram account, which is one of my favorite Instagram accounts, It's really, really phenomenal. You go by the name of Young Pueblo. What does it mean? And why do you have this pen name?
- [110:38]
A
Yeah, so Young Pueblo, I mean, it literally means young people. And I just. I picked up this pen name one day, intuitively. That's how I started my Instagram account. And then over time, it developed a lot of meaning. So when I started meditating, I started realizing that I'm really immature. I have a lot of growing up to do. But I also, I've always been a. Just a big fan of history, have been studying history really closely my whole life. And I started realizing that humanity as a whole is very immature and has a lot of growing up to do. So when you think about when you send your kids to the very, you know, very early school, like kindergarten or whatnot, what are these kids trying to learn? They're trying to learn basics. They're trying to learn how to clean up after themselves, how to share, how to tell the truth, how to not fight, you know, how to communicate well with each other. And these are like human basics that people, Some people can do as individuals, but as a human collective, we totally fail. Right? We don't know how to share. We don't know how to clean up after ourselves. We're constantly at war with each other. So these fundamentals have not been mastered by the human collective. So to me, Young Pueblo is a reminder to myself that humanity as a whole is growing up. That we're like, in this transitional moment, going from childhood to, like, being teenagers, you know, we still have so much more growing up to do.
- [112:10]
B
Wow, that's really beautiful and really humbling at the same time. For people who have heard this conversation, Diego, and are feeling like there's a bit of conflict in their relationships, in their lives, and they have resonated with a few things. Thought, yeah, I like that. Oh, I see what you said there. But I don't know where to start. What final words of wisdom would you have for them?
- [112:38]
A
I think it's really, you know, we live in a really powerful and special time in human history where there are just such a vast variety of tools for self development. And we mentioned a number of them. You know, something as simple as journaling, something as simple as gratitude or, you know, working with a therapist. There are so many different forms of meditation. I talked about Vipassana, which is a much more rigorous form of meditation. But then there are other simpler ones that are easier to access or you know, there's just yoga. Like there's so much out there. So what I would say is if you're having some struggle with relationship, you can simultaneously work on your relationship and work on yourself and start developing the qualities that you know will make your life better. So if you're lacking patience, develop patience. Like if you're lacking, you know, if you're like having too much anger come up too often, then you have to cultivate non reaction so that you can allow yourself to be with the truth of the moment, be with attention without making it bigger than it really needs to be. And these are things that we can, we can all cultivate. And I feel like we just live in this special moment in human history where millions of people are, you know, seeing therapists, millions of people are meditating, millions of people are doing yoga. People are actively really working on healing themselves. And you'll see that your healing and your personal growth will directly help your relationship flourish.
- [114:14]
B
I love that. Diego, thank you for flying over. Thank you for coming to the studio. The book Cattle are Better is awesome. You're awesome.
- [114:23]
A
Thank you so much.
- [114:23]
B
And I really loved our conversation. Thank you.
- [114:25]
A
Yeah, me too. Thank you so much. Really happy to be here.
- [114:33]
B
Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free@drchatterjeet.com Friday 5 Now if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world covering all kinds of different topics. Happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change, and movement, weight loss, and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks, and as audiobooks, which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the Episode notes in your podcast app. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it, because when you feel better, you live more.