Enough tho

Summary

Feminist Survival Project - Episode Summary: "Enough tho"

Release Date: December 23, 2024
Hosts: Emily Nagoski and Amelia Nagoski

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Introduction

In the "Enough tho" episode of the Feminist Survival Project podcast, hosts Emily and Amelia Nagoski delve deep into the pervasive societal pressures that lead feminists—and many individuals at large—to feel perpetually inadequate. Drawing from their expertise as authors of BURNOUT: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle, the Nagoski sisters explore the intricate relationship between personal needs, societal expectations, and the innate human drive for connection.

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The Concept of "Enough"

Individual vs. Population Level

The episode begins with a discussion between Dr. Alex and Jordan (likely referring to Emily and Amelia) about the fundamental question: "Is it enough?" They differentiate between population-level truths and individual experiences, emphasizing that while at a population level, humans are a sexually dimorphic species, this biological fact doesn't dictate individual experiences of gender or adequacy.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Alex [02:10]: "You are enough because all you can be is 100% of who you are. And it is unreasonable for anyone to ask for or expect anything more than 100% of who you are."

Biological Need for Connection

The hosts elaborate on the concept that humans are inherently swarm, herd, or flock species. Unlike solitary organisms, humans thrive on connection and collaboration. This biological imperative contrasts sharply with societal narratives that often promote individualism and self-sufficiency, leading to feelings of loneliness and inadequacy.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Alex [10:11]: "When you feel like you're not enough, it is loneliness. You have gotten too far away from the other birds in your flock."

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Societal and Cultural Conditioning

Shame Around Needs

A significant portion of the episode addresses how society inculcates shame around human needs, particularly the need for connection. This shame is often gendered, with different expectations placed on individuals based on their gender identity.

Notable Quote:
Jordan [21:13]: "It's hard to unlearn. It's really hard to unlearn to believe that there's something wrong with you if you have a need to belong."

Gender Socialization

The discussion highlights how socialization practices differ for those raised as girls versus boys. Girls are often taught to prioritize connection and service to others but are simultaneously derided for these behaviors. Boys, on the other hand, may receive messages that crave for connection is a sign of weakness.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Alex [21:28]: "If you're raised as a boy, then you're taught to hunger for connection is girly. What are you, a fucking pussy?"

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Personal Reflections and Experiences

Therapy and Individuality

Dr. Alex shares personal insights from her therapeutic journey, emphasizing that realizing one's uniqueness is crucial in combating feelings of inadequacy. Contrary to the therapeutic norm that often emphasizes commonality, her experience underscores individuality.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Alex [22:53]: "When I was being trained as a therapist, I was taught that a client's experience is going to be realizing that they are not alone... but my therapy has been learning that I am not like other people."

Unlearning Cultural Narratives

The hosts discuss the challenges of unlearning ingrained cultural narratives that devalue personal needs. They encourage listeners to recognize and dismantle these narratives to foster self-acceptance and genuine connection.

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Analogies and Metaphors

Murmuration of Birds

Dr. Alex introduces the metaphor of a murmuration—a large flock of starlings moving in a cohesive, self-organizing pattern despite the lack of individual direction. This analogy illustrates how collective behavior emerges from individual actions, highlighting the importance of community and collaboration.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Alex [08:01]: "The system is self-organizing. It is an emergent property of the complex dynamical system."

Neurons Needing Connections

Another metaphor compares individuals to neurons within a vast network, emphasizing that while a single neuron is remarkable, its true potential is realized only through connections with others.

Notable Quote:
Jordan [11:12]: "You're a single neuron, which is an amazing little thing, but kind of useless without a network, without at least one other neuron."

Trends and Belonging

The conversation touches on how societal trends, such as fashion, serve as microcosms for the broader human need to belong. Participating in trends can both satisfy and conflict with personal authenticity.

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Discussion of Relevant Literature

"High Conflict" by Amanda Ripley

Dr. Alex references High Conflict by Amanda Ripley, which explores cultural divisiveness and strategies to mitigate demonization of differing viewpoints. This ties into the broader theme of fostering understanding and connection in a fragmented society.

"My Grandmother's Hands"

The episode also discusses My Grandmother's Hands, a profound exploration of how white supremacy is ingrained in bodily experiences and intergenerational trauma. The hosts highlight the importance of healing these deep-seated wounds to build a more equitable society.

Notable Quote:
Dr. Alex [31:26]: "Until we can heal that intergenerational trauma, we're never gonna stop doing the harm."

Reference to Stormlight Archive

Amelia shares anecdotes from Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive, illustrating how fictional narratives can reinforce the podcast's themes of connection and sufficiency.

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Conclusion

The episode culminates with a powerful analogy comparing individual efforts to move a shore with the collective strength of a community. Dr. Alex emphasizes that feeling "enough" is intrinsically tied to recognizing and embracing collaboration.

Final Notable Quote:
Dr. Alex [40:34]: "When you feel like you're not enough, look around and see the people who are collaborating with you."

She further illustrates this with an analogy of passing a bucket in a relay, symbolizing the importance of mutual support and shared responsibility in overcoming feelings of inadequacy.

Takeaway Message:
When you feel like you're not enough, it's not a reflection of your worth but a signal of loneliness. Embracing connection and collaboration can help fulfill this innate need, allowing you to recognize your inherent sufficiency within a supportive community.

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Significant Quotes with Timestamps

• Dr. Alex [02:10]: "You are enough because all you can be is 100% of who you are. And it is unreasonable for anyone to ask for or expect anything more than 100% of who you are."

• Dr. Alex [10:11]: "When you feel like you're not enough, it is loneliness. You have gotten too far away from the other birds in your flock."

• Jordan [21:13]: "It's hard to unlearn. It's really hard to unlearn to believe that there's something wrong with you if you have a need to belong."

• Dr. Alex [21:28]: "If you're raised as a boy, then you're taught to hunger for connection is girly. What are you, a fucking pussy?"

• Dr. Alex [22:53]: "When I was being trained as a therapist, I was taught that a client's experience is going to be realizing that they are not alone... but my therapy has been learning that I am not like other people."

• Jordan [11:12]: "You're a single neuron, which is an amazing little thing, but kind of useless without a network, without at least one other neuron."

• Dr. Alex [31:26]: "Until we can heal that intergenerational trauma, we're never gonna stop doing the harm."

• Dr. Alex [40:34]: "When you feel like you're not enough, look around and see the people who are collaborating with you."

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Final Thoughts

"Enough tho" serves as a compassionate reminder that feelings of inadequacy are often rooted in unmet needs for connection rather than actual deficiencies. By understanding the biological imperatives for connection and dismantling societal narratives that shame these needs, listeners are empowered to seek and build meaningful relationships that affirm their inherent worth.

The Nagoski sisters adeptly blend personal anecdotes, scientific insights, and cultural critiques to offer a holistic approach to overcoming burnout and fostering a sense of sufficiency rooted in community and authentic connection.

Transcript

[Dr. Alex]

Here's us doing the thing you have more profoundly. Cozy. Enormous sippy cup.

[Jordan]

Yeah. This is 40 ounces.

[Dr. Alex]

And I guess the question of the hour is, is it enough?

[Jordan]

I started writing a song about this topic. Just coincidentally, I haven't finished it, because songs sometimes take time.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

But there's. There's a bridge that goes. Loneliness is a form of starvation. Loneliness. It's as bad for you as vaping.

[Dr. Alex]

It's pretty good.

[Jordan]

The first verse goes. It's okay to have needs. It's okay to have needs. It's okay to have needs. Like everybody. It's okay to have needs.

[Dr. Alex]

It was a good camp song.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Camp for. I was. I was trying to think of, like, a specific category of humans that it applied to most, but, like, oh, no, it's everybody. All of us have been taught that we're not allowed to have needs.

[Jordan]

Yeah. And that we should feel guilty for asking people for help.

[Dr. Alex]

We feel guilty for having the need in the first place. We feel guilty for requiring help in fulfilling the need. We feel guilty for asking for the help. So the connection between the last episode and this episode, in my mind, is that we talked about the difference in levels of analysis, where a thing that is true at the population level doesn't have anything to do with what's true at the individual level. So we talked about how, yes, at the population, humans are a sexually dimorphous, sexually reproducing species. At a population level, that's true. And that has nothing to do with how individual humans either have their biology organized or experience their gender. And we know this from generations of science. And when I was in my doctoral program, I studied complexity theory and dynamical systems modeling. And this is where this science comes from, is watching that the behavior of an individual within a group may behave in a way that seems completely unpredictable, but the way that individual behaves relative to the group, like within the group, is easily predictable because you can predict what the group is going to do. So we're talking about enoughness today and enoughness on an individual level. Just as it is true that your gender could be anything, on an individual level, it is true that as an individual, no matter who you are or what you're doing, you are enough. You're enough because all. All you can be is 100% of who you are. And it is unreasonable for anyone to ask for or expect anything more than 100% of who you are. Are we making sense so far?

[Jordan]

Yep. I think we summed it up good. This is good. See you next week.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah, like, you're enough. Like, and. And hopefully for most people, as you're hearing me say that, a part of you goes, yes, I am enough. Oh, I needed to hear that. I am enough. I am enough. I'm doing enough. I have enough. I am enough. And then there's another part of you that's like, that's not true. If I. If I were enough, I wouldn't have all these needs. If I were enough, the people around me would not have all these unmet needs. I would have met all the needs of all the people who need things from me. That's how I would know I was enough, is if nobody around me needed anything more from me and I didn't need anything more from them. And that's the part where we transition out of the individual level of analysis to the group level of analysis. We made it gentler in Burnout than the way I originally wrote it. So I'm going to talk today in the language that I originally used that felt too harsh for our editor.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And maybe also for our agent. But here's. Here's the actual language that I'm going to use at a population level. You, as an individual are not enough. Of course you feel like you're not enough. Look at all the needs that exist. The universe is an infinite sucking vortex of need. You will never be able to meet all of the needs that surround you. You may not even be able to meet just the needs that dwell inside your one puny little organism. No, that is not how humans are designed. Humans are a swarm species. We are a herd species. We are a flock species. We do not fully exist as individuals. One individual human is not a complete living organism. Does that sentence make sense to you? Can you say that in a different way in case there's other people who are like, what the. What. What. What do you mean? An individual organism? An individual human is not a complete organism.

[Jordan]

The Greeks believed in the music of the spheres. And the idea of the music of the spheres was that there was a harmony that was an effect of and was a creator of rational organization to the universe. And that this harmony, the same harmony exists at every level. So each cell of your body is organized in a proportional way, and all of the cells in your body are organized together according to that same harmonious proportion. And you, as an individual, function in a same parallel way, using the same harmony in your family. And your family exists in society, and society exists in a nation, and the nation exists on a planet, and the planet exists in a solar system in A galaxy in the universe, and that all of these pieces are the same, are function in kind of like a fractal relationship to each other or holographic.

[Dr. Alex]

If people know how holographs actually work.

[Jordan]

I don't. So good for those people who do. So when Moana says to the ocean, fish poop in you all day, is that what she says?

[Dr. Alex]

I don't remember.

[Jordan]

Yeah, she's mad at the ocean. She's like, fish poop in you all day. But, like, you also are an organism, like the ocean covered in other teeny, tiny organisms that are pooping all over.

[Dr. Alex]

You, in you, on you all day.

[Jordan]

Yeah, yeah. And this planet is a. A creation that is covered in, you know, systems that poop on it all the time. I don't know. It's turned into poop because of Moana. So these are the things that I think of and the ways that I understand how nothing is complete without the other levels of the thing above it and below it.

[Dr. Alex]

That is much deeper and more philosophical, and you're the art one, obviously, than the way that I think about it, because I think about it in terms of a flock of birds or specifically a murmuration. So a murmuration, we should include a link to an image or a video of a murmuration is a massive, like, thousands and thousands of birds, starlings, and they seem to be swirling in a directionless mass, just floating and rolling waves of birds. And it doesn't seem like there's any direction. And it is the case that no specific individual bird is the leader, and no specific individual bird has a plan for where they are going. But it is as the collective that they gradually come to the conclusion that was inevitable, which is that they settle in a tree. And you see that there are some birds who fly past the tree three or four times before they settle in the tree. But they will inevitably settle in the tree because the rules that they're following are, I want to stay within X distance of my neighbors. And so because every individual bird is following their neighbors, some of those neighbors are going to hit the stimulus of the tree and be like, oh, tree, tree good. And they're going to sit in the tree. But because there are thousands and thousands of birds, some of those birds are a mile away. And so when the first birds get to tree, the last birds are just following the birds in front of them. And it's not a straight line. There's going. Because there's also going to be wind that gets in the way. There might be a predator bird that gets in the way all sorts. Sorts of things can interrupt and transition the flow of this massive collective of birds. And yet in the end, they all ultimately end up in the same place, which is the place that they were always going.

[Jordan]

Yeah. The system is self organizing.

[Dr. Alex]

Yes. The system is self organizing. It is an emergent property of the complex dynamical system. God, we are being so, like, nerdy. And I don't know if this is helpful or the thing I want to say. Like, the ultimate moral of the story for me is when you feel like you are not enough, what that emotion means is that you feel lonely.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Is what it comes down to.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

You have gotten too far away from the other birds in your flock.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And you don't know which direction to fly.

[Jordan]

You're built to be part of a system and you cannot feel the system.

[Dr. Alex]

And yeah. You have lost touch. You have lost contact with your system. And so when you feel like you're not enough, it is not because there's any. Anything, not enough about you. You as an individual organism are 100% of what a human organism is. But it just is the case that 100% of a human organism is not 100% of a living unit.

[Jordan]

Right. Like, you're a single neuron, which is an amazing little thing, but kind of useless without a network, without at least one other neuron.

[Dr. Alex]

Right. To be part of the chain of transmission of information across the entire system. That's a really great metaphor. I like that a lot. Thank you. You're a neuron. You're a neuron. It's amazing and sort of pointless unless you have contact with another neuron. Right. And we say this not because we so profoundly feel this longing for connection and human contact and being in community with others. We do not want to be. Certainly we don't want to be leaders of a community, but we don't even have a, like, strong appetite for participating in community of any kind.

[Jordan]

Far lower than the average person.

[Dr. Alex]

We are introverted autistics.

[Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Our appetites. Everyone has a different appetite for social connection. And some people just, like, crave and constantly hunger for connection. They long to be part of a group sort of all the time. And other people can tolerate. They. They require some connection.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And they can tolerate a small amount. And then they need to, like, go back to individuation.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

So when you feel like you are not enough, it is not because you are not enough. That's a story that our culture has laid on top of an emotional experience that is a biological drive.

[Jordan]

Yes.

[Dr. Alex]

For connection.

[Jordan]

Yes. It's not just like you want to fit in because it feels cool. It's a biological drive to. To fit in.

[Dr. Alex]

And we know that loneliness is as physically bad for your health as smoking something like 15 cigarettes a day.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Hence your song that it's a.

[Jordan]

As bad for you as vaping.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

Because vaping rhymes better than smoking.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah, Vaping, vaping. It's cool.

[Jordan]

I claim it's a good rhyme, but whatever. Work in progress.

[Dr. Alex]

There's a lot worse rhymes in pop songs. Yeah.

[Jordan]

A little poetic license.

[Dr. Alex]

And so. So when you have the feeling of not being enough, which I already have had the feeling of watching, how many horror shows, how many sort of fields of horror have been opening up in the last few weeks? I have had the sense of like, there's an extreme limitation to the amount of energy that I can put into this. I cannot solve all these problems. I cannot be dedicated to all of these problems. I have the resources that I have and I can allocate them in a way that is aligned with my purpose. And I am fortunate to have a very clear and explicit purpose to constrain my decision making about where I put my energy, which is like, I teach people to live with confidence and joy inside their bodies. Confidence is knowing what's true. Joy is loving what's true. That's my job. I'm doing my job right now. And it is allocating the time and energy that I have to fulfilling the thing that I am here to do, which is great. And I am aware that there are vast fields of horror that I have excluded from my path. Like, I am not doing things about the ways. About the ways. The. I mean, like, I can't even pick one to say out loud.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

There are so. There are so many things.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Like the states that are actively choosing not to monitor the death of women and children because of anti abortion laws. And that's. That's pretty darn close. That is immediately adjacent to my stuff. But like, I can't change Texas's lawmaking system.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

That can't be where I put my energy because I'm not going to make enough of a difference for it to be worth the end.

[Jordan]

There are other people doing that and there are people who have more resources to dedicate to that. And you know what those, those people are not doing? They're not teaching people to live with confidence and joy inside their bodies.

[Dr. Alex]

Yes.

[Jordan]

You're the one doing that.

[Dr. Alex]

And I am confident that this work of teaching people. Oh. Recognizing when I have the emotion of feeling like I'm not enough, I'm not good enough, I don't have enough, I am not doing enough, I'm not working hard enough. God knows that is loneliness. And in the same way that when you are hungry, please eat. When you feel like you are not enough, please connect. And the way you connect in the same way that when you eat, you can make a whole variety of choices. When you connect, you can make a whole variety of choices. And you will learn through experience what sort of hunger is satisfied by which sort of connection.

[Jordan]

Of nourishment.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah, of nourishment. Yes, exactly. And I want to say that us talking about this, us helping you to meet that emotional need existing inside your body is absolutely like, this is part of the revolution. One being able to interpret that not in terms of the story or culture told you, but in terms of what your biology, your organism needs.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Means that you're going to be better able to, like, meet your own needs instead of, like, dissolving yourself, crushing yourself, destroying yourself, trying to be something you biologically cannot be.

[Jordan]

Yeah. Like all of the needs that you need to meet or that you need to have met. Listening to your body and trusting that there is a part of you that knows what you need and being able to make the choice to attend to that instead of trusting what you've been told you must trust, which is the shaming forces that come externally that tell you that you're not allowed to have those needs, that your needs are draining on people who deserve more.

[Dr. Alex]

Right.

[Jordan]

Or that who ought to be ashamed for wanting some kind of lustful, gluttonous comfort, something. And, you know, we shame kids. We say, oh, don't listen to that kid. They're just doing it for attention. And that little kid learns that their need for attention is shameful. They should be embarrassed that they wanted attention, that. That it was trite and petty for them to ask for. I mean, what they're asking for is connection.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah. To be.

[Jordan]

To be recognized that they exist and that they matter. That's a need that we have that as children we seek to have met in some really adaptive ways and some maladaptive ways. Right. And for the most part, my experience. And I think a lot of kids have the experience that when they try maladaptive ways of seeking confirmation that they exist, that they matter, that they're part of the system that their body is longing for, they get told that that's too needy and that no one has time for that. And as long as they're clothed and Fed, then they should be fine on their own. I think that's what a lot of kids get.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

It's a very, like, people take for granted they're just doing it for attention. Well, but attention is a. Is a basic human need.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah. And suppose. Suppose, like, your kid comes home, and when we say your kid, we can mean you.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Comes home with the story of an experience of having been bullied.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And the loved one that this kid takes the story to says, that bully is just trying to get attention. Your job is to ignore them.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

On the one hand, that's probably a functional way to get the bully to get the person to leave them alone because they are looking for attention. But when you use the phrase they are just looking for attention, you are framing it as if getting attention is something that is weak.

[Jordan]

Right. That's bad.

[Dr. Alex]

And if instead. So like a simple reframe that. Yeah, it's bad. How dare they. How dare they want attention? How dare they hunger for a response, a reaction from a fellow human being. Yeah. So, you know, the adult to whom the child brings the story of bullying can instead say, yeah, they're probably hungering for attention, and they're doing it in a way that's hurting you, and that's not okay. And you are not responsible for healing that other child. You're responsible for keeping yourself safe. And I'm gonna make sure that you get your attention needs met.

[Jordan]

Yeah. And so for people we're talking to now who are reflecting back on, like, gosh, where did I learn that my need to belong was weak, was unimportant, was trite. Where did I learn that? And how do I unlearn it now that I know?

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah.

[Jordan]

It's hard to unlearn. It's really hard to unlearn. Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

To unlearn that there's something wrong with you if you have a need to belong.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

All of this, of course, is different depending on how you were raised in terms of your gender.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

On the one hand, if you got socialized as a girl, then you were probably trained always to be in connection and especially always to be of service to others.

[Jordan]

But you were also derided for that.

[Dr. Alex]

Oh, yeah. Because it's the girl thing. It's contemptible.

[Jordan]

Yeah. I guess you all have to go to the bathroom at the same time.

[Dr. Alex]

Right. And if you're. If you're raised as a boy, then you're taught to hunger for connection is girly. What are you, a fucking pussy?

[Jordan]

Exactly.

[Dr. Alex]

And. And there is nothing worse than being, like, a Girl.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

If you're being raised as a boy. And so you get taught to feel ashamed of needing connection either way. But in different ways. It's important to point out that your shame about your longing to connect may have a different character depending on your cultural origin and your family of origin. Some people, approximately half of people have, like, stable enough, loving enough families of origin that they. Half. Yeah. Like half in North America.

[Jordan]

That's nice. I'm glad it's half.

[Dr. Alex]

Isn't that nice?

[Jordan]

I really would have thought it was less.

[Dr. Alex]

Of course you would. Because you assume your experience is what everybody else's experience is.

[Jordan]

Shut up.

[Dr. Alex]

Me too.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

My. I've been with the Same therapist since 2008. Over and over my therapeutic process. When I was being trained as a therapist, I was taught that over and over, a client's experience is going to be realizing that they are not alone. That their experience is very much like other people's. Really. But my therapy over and over again has been learning that I am not like other people.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

That. That's not everyone's experience.

[Jordan]

Yeah. Me too.

[Dr. Alex]

So. Which I think puts us in a good position to be talking about this.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

The moral of the story is that when you feel like you're not enough, that's your body craving connection and all those other thoughts. It is going to be. So. What a powerful journaling exercise it can be to write down all the thoughts that you have, the whole story that you have been taught to tell yourself about that feeling and all the feelings that you're supposed to have about that feeling and all the feelings you actually do have about the feelings that you were taught to have about that feeling. Fill pages. Breaking down and understanding the narrative that was imposed on you by a culture and a family. You did not choose. You didn't choose any of that shit. You didn't even choose to be a human type mammal.

[Jordan]

The word trendy was kind of vilified for me. I don't know if you got this message, but to participate in a trend, Fashion trend, was like, ew.

[Dr. Alex]

Well, to participate in a trend as a teenager is inherent. Like, that's just teenagers.

[Jordan]

I know. But like, there was definitely a feeling that to participate in a trend, which is to say to do the same thing as the other people around you just because that's what they're doing. That. That was a stupid thing to do. That only a sheep would do. That.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah. That.

[Jordan]

It's not smart or wise. It's trite and silly. Sorry. Just continuing to reflect on my. The Ways that expressions of belonging and desire to belong were. Were greeted.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah. When in reality, that's. That's. That's just your biology. Like, you behaving.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

The way the people around you are behaving. Just because that's how the people around you are behaving. Like, that's innate human behavior.

[Jordan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And because humans are humans, we can notice that we did that and make a choice about whether or not participating in this trend is actually, like, good for us.

[Jordan]

Right.

[Dr. Alex]

Which is, like, there's an easy conversation, like, about clothes. Like, I'm participating in this clothing. Skinny jeans. Yeah, skinny jeans.

[Jordan]

They were not. It turned out they were not a trend. They were. They were the clothes to wear for over a decade. But I think if a thing lasts over a decade, it's not a trend.

[Dr. Alex]

But every season there is a trend of, like, colors people are wearing or shapes and silhouettes of clothes people are wearing. And just because it's a thing that's trending doesn't mean that it's a thing that suits you.

[Jordan]

Right.

[Dr. Alex]

Or matches how you prefer to be perceived by the world.

[Jordan]

Right. So you might feel pressure to participate even though you don't really enjoy it, but also, you might want to just participate even though you don't really enjoy it because you do enjoy the sense of.

[Dr. Alex]

I'm participating in the trend. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jordan]

Of participation.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah, Participation. And the pleasure that we get from participation is not shameful. It is not stupid. It is not. It's so interesting how the language you report absorbing is all about, like, intelligence and intellect and rising above animal instinct through reason and, like, being. Being smarter than the other people.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Like, those people are not as smart as I am. They are doing that because they're not as smart as I am. The way I illustrate how smart I am is by not doing that thing.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And, like, deep down, your body has the same hunger for connection that everybody else's body has. And you're like, I'm gonna prove how smart I am by isolating myself and not meeting that need.

[Jordan]

Yep.

[Dr. Alex]

And probably weren't even aware of it because you weren't aware that you, you know, had a body. Yeah.

[Jordan]

No.

[Dr. Alex]

You really thought people were faking it.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

That there was not, like, a physiological experience people had when they participated in a trend. You just thought it was superficial behavior.

[Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah. Basically, my. My adolescence was the European enlightenment, where they decided that reason, existence from the. From the chin up, was the only existence that mattered and that that's what made, like, enlightened Sophisticated, civilized people superior to the. The heathen.

[Dr. Alex]

Yes. So I'm gonna transition to a darker. Sorry about this. So I'm currently listening to two audiobooks sort of in parallel because they're both pretty difficult. And so I switch from one to the other. One of them is this book called High Conflict by Amanda Ripley, which is about how the divisiveness of our culture functions. What are the rules of engagement, and how do we stop creating divisive, high conflict patterns. Not conflict free patterns, but free of the kind of conflict where we demonize everybody who doesn't agree with us.

[Jordan]

Right.

[Dr. Alex]

And the other one is called My Grandmother's Hands, which is even more difficult. And it's about the ways that white supremacy lives in our bodies. It is white body supremacy and is the first book that I've encountered that grapples with the way white body supremacy shows up in the bodies of white people, the ways it shows up in the bodies of black people, and the way it shows up in the bodies of cops. And until all of us have, like, done a lot of healing around the ways white body supremacy shows up in our bodies, healed the way it shows up in our bodies, we're not actually like. I have done countless hours of diversity training and education and reading and conversations and formal and informal training around racial justice. Like, we have made a whole episode called White Ladies who Try. We will probably do another one in February. And it turns out this. This mission of mine, this, like, reason that I am on earth of teaching people to live with confidence and joy, knowing what's true and loving what's true. Loving what's true is the hard part, can be part of this much bigger cultural goal of, you know, building a stable, multiracial democracy, which can only happen if people can turn toward their own internal experience with kindness and compassion, recognizing the harm they have caused and the harm that they carry intergenerationally. Like the trauma that white people carried in their bodies to these shores. It was already there, and we just started taking it out on everybody we met. And until we can heal that intergenerational trauma, we're never gonna stop doing the harm.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

So when you can notice what your body is saying to you and not believe the story that your culture told, you recognize that emotion for what it actually is and meet it in a way that is actually going to satisfy that need. Because imagine if every time you were hungry, you thought, oh, I'm thirsty, and you just kept drinking water. You would stay hungry all the time and you'd think, I'm drinking all this water. What's wrong with me? Like, why can't I be satisfied? If you think that intellectual work is going to create the change you want to see in the world, alas and alack, like, we were raised in family and a culture that 100% prioritized intellectual work.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And that all intellectual labor was good intellectual labor and sufficient for solving any.

[Jordan]

Problem, which is bananas. Because, look, the boomers are the ones who went through the psycho, something mushroomy drug thing and the free love and the like, get back to nature hippie and sort of like guru, yoga, shaman, spiritual journey. I mean, that was all dismissed as silly and derided, wasn't it?

[Dr. Alex]

Oh, yeah, but it happened.

[Jordan]

But, like, I guess that was the loser in history. And what one was the people who thought that that was all stupid.

[Dr. Alex]

I can offer my. I'm only 20% of the way through my grandmother's hands. Like, it is slow. The author says, specifically, don't skip the exercises. If you can't do the exercise, wait until you can do the exercise to move forward. So I'm like, waiting until I can do the exercise, which sometimes is just like, I'm like, driving my car. I cannot do this exercise. And sometimes it's. I'm not emotionally ready to do this exercise. So my opinion is that hippies was a, you know, predominantly white situation, and they probably got to a certain level of, like, being connected with their internal experience and which leads inevitably to feeling connected with the. The oneness that is the. The one self, the. The God self, the oneness of the universe that you are everything altogether. And it touched the white trauma. And people were like, that's far enough. We don't have to dig much further than that. Only a handful of people probably got beyond that.

[Jordan]

Yeah. I mean, and even the term hippie was a derisive term.

[Dr. Alex]

Right.

[Jordan]

Dirty hippie. Yeah. Yeah. So then we, as Gen X, were raised in this, like, latchkey kid generation where, you know.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah. You'll notice neither of our boomer parents was a hippie.

[Jordan]

Right? No.

[Dr. Alex]

So, like, the actual proportion of hippies to normies. Yeah.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And also, there's a reason why the ending of the TV series Mad Men is so powerful.

[Jordan]

Right. If anybody doesn't know, spoiler for Mad Men. He goes from being this ad executive on Madison Avenue to, like, moving to a commune in California and meditating wearing a gauze cotton tunic and a beaded lariat.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah. And as he's meditating, how the show ends as he's meditating, literally, I Believe. I believe. Literally like with his hands in the lotus position going, oh, yeah, yeah. Maybe he has a vision.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Of what would become the iconic Coke commercial.

[Jordan]

Yeah. I'd like to teach the world to.

[Dr. Alex]

Sing in perfect harmony and that it's used to give the world Coke. Coke.

[Jordan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And I think that's like. That's what happened is it got bought just like feminism. It got bought by corporations.

[Jordan]

Yep, yep, yep. Huh.

[Dr. Alex]

So those, those are just some of the components of the story, depending on your generation. Those are some of the components of the story that's going to come up when you try to examine the feelings you have about your feeling of not being enough, that you should feel ashamed of needing connection.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

That connection can somehow be purchased. That connection can be fulfilled. Really, like completely fulfilled online. It can partly. I wanna.

[Jordan]

But we need co presence with a mammal.

[Dr. Alex]

Yeah. So the deal with virtual connection is that it gives us virtual connection. The more senses are involved, the better it is for us. So if we can hear voices, that's great. If we can see faces, that's better.

[Jordan]

Is that why we're doing video this week? Practicing what we preach?

[Dr. Alex]

Video. People. People like video.

[Jordan]

People like video because they've using more of their senses.

[C]

It.

[Dr. Alex]

And like physiologically it does different things.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Two people to be able to see the face.

[Jordan]

Pointing out that this is different and this is a good illustration about why. Yeah, I wasn't really asking. I was one of those public service questions. It was a good question. So someone else doesn't have to.

[Dr. Alex]

But ultimately, I mean, just like if you're hungry and you consistently eat only one thing, it's not meeting all of your nutritional needs. No matter how nice that if you eat only kale, forever, even that is not going to meet all your nutritional needs. Kale's great for you, but it is only one thing. And you ultimately need variety. A variety and full nourishment. And also connection and food both are. We're going to do a whole food episode. I'm sure connection and food both are not just about plain old nourishment, but are about sharing joy and pleasure, which every human is entitled to.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

Including you, person listening. Including me. Me. Not believing me when I say it, but I am.

[Jordan]

So while you've been listening to these difficult audiobooks, I've been listening multiple times to the new Brandon Sanderson Stormlight archive book. And in it, one of our protagonists becomes like that planet's first therapist. And he's like trying to figure out how to help people's Mental difficulties, and working with this one particular very messed up dude and comes up with three rules. Rule one is, you're a person, not a thing. Rule two is you get to choose. And rule three is, you deserve to be happy. So if anybody thinks the Stormlight Archive books aren't, I don't know, helpful. Look, I just want to defend the fact that I haven't listened to any nonfiction in the past. Since December 6, when the book came out.

[Dr. Alex]

I have accidentally. It's all based on, like, when my library holds come.

[Jordan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

And it just so happened that these two books, library holds, arrived within a matter of days. I'm also reading a book about shadow work. So, like, I guess I have just decided that December is the month that I'm gonna go hard into the shadow.

[Jordan]

Yeah, no, I haven't done that. I've listened to this other book, but I did learn that thing also. The fish poop in you. And then if the ocean could talk back and say, well, you're covered in little organisms that poop all over you.

[Dr. Alex]

You're filled with organisms that poop on in you.

[Jordan]

Filled, covered, and filled with. And that is also a parallel that Brandon Sanderson draws in one of the funniest conversations in all of the Stormlight Archive. I stole that from Brandon Sanderson, who stole it from Moana.

[Dr. Alex]

Do you have that book with you?

[Jordan]

I mean, yeah.

[Dr. Alex]

I feel like the best possible way to end this episode is with exactly that funniest exchange.

[Jordan]

Okay.

[Dr. Alex]

Because it's a simple moral of the story. When you feel like you're not enough, what that means is you're lonely. Because the reality is that you, as an individual, are enough. And the reality is that you, within the collective, are not enough and were never intended to be enough and are intended to be in connection. It is through collaboration. Here is. It is. It is a relay, not a marathon. You need somebody to pick up the baton when you're worn out. The analogy I always use is, look, if we need to move the shore where the ocean is, like, me and my bucket are not enough to do that. And I work as hard as I can, me and my bucket, moving buckets of sand to move the shore. But the way that I know I'm making progress, like, I cannot feel like I'm making progress if I just look at me and my one bucket versus the entire ocean. But if I look to my left, I see an infinite row of other people with their buckets, and I look to my other side, and I see an infinite row of other people and their buckets. And I look behind me at all the people waiting and ready to take over when somebody gets too tired. And I pass on the bucket so that I can rest and chill at the campfire with all the people who are also resting. Because we can rest, because there's enough of us collaborating together that we can make it happen. That's the analogy when you feel like you're not enough, look around and see. It's not look for the helpers, because we're. We're adults and we are the helpers. But look around and see the people who are collaborating with you.

[Jordan]

Okay.

[Dr. Alex]

Take us home.

[Jordan]

So this is a conversation between a tween, maybe an early teenager named Lift, and she is bonded to a little magical creature called a Spren, whose name is Windle. And they live inside a tower which is also run by a Spren called the Sibling, who goes by they them pronouns. And so the tower, the sibling, is overhearing the conversation between Lift and her Spren, and her bond with her Spren makes her a powerful kind of knight, called a radiant knight or a knight radiant. Okay, this is the conversation.

[C]

You should feel grateful. The tower said. Windle is correct. Relatively few humans are chosen for the privilege of a radiant bond. What do you know? She said. You're a building. And the Tower said, and people fart in you, like, all the time. I bet half the people in this room are doing it right now. You realize, the tower said, you are host to millions of life forms. They exist in your gut, on your skin, all over you. What? Lift said. Oh, Wendell said, I've heard of this. Germs, yes. Wisdom of the Heralds. People with very detailed and specific life sense can feel them, I'm told. Millions upon millions of tiny creatures living on the skin of humans. They particularly like the hair follicles. The tower said, I can feel them on you, Lift. Lift stared at her hands, aghast. And yes, the sibling added, they live their entire lives there, eating your dead skin flakes, defecating on you. You are a tower like me, Lift. Every human is. That is the grossest thing I've ever heard. She looked to Gav. Hey, Gav, did you know we have millions of tiny creatures living on us? Gross. I know. Awesome. You were just saying, the tower told her that I'm not worth listening to because I'm filled with things that Fart and Lift said. And you are, too, so nobody should listen to you either. Gav. Lift said, should anyone listen to us when we say things about important stuff? I mean, of course not, gav said. We're kids. Lift looked to the glowing column of light and shrugged. I honestly have no idea why I started talking to you, the Tower said. It's because you sensed Cultivation's touch on her, windle said. Completely.

[Jordan]

Completely missing the point. Gav is a. Is like a little five year old. She's the. Actually the. The heir to the throne.

[C]

Missing the context of the Tower's complaint as usual. What a druff. But, well, he did put up with her.

[Jordan]

Anyway, that's the Lift is definitely the funniest character in the book. She's very silly and fun. Anyway, you're not alone.

[Dr. Alex]

You are filled with creatures that fart in and on you all day, every day.

[Jordan]

Yeah, the co presence of microorganisms is not according to the research. There is no research that demonstrates that connection with your microorganisms can help you feel like you're enough and to cure loneliness. In fact, mammalian co presence is the co presence that tends to do it. But meanwhile, you are not alone.

[Dr. Alex]

Shortest episode yet of the Zombie Apocalypse Edition because it's a simple message that is takes practice to fully grasp that. Like when you find yourself beating yourself up for not being enough, or feeling like you're not enough, or feeling all the demands that are being made of you. Yeah, too many demands are being made of you. That is the nature of 2025. It is part of why I consider it the Zombie Apocalypse Edition is because like the zombies are trying to eat your brain and you got to get away from the zombies that are trying to eat your brain and go spend time with actual humans or dogs. Dogs can be better. Horses, mammals. Spend time with mammals.

[Jordan]

It requires help not to feel alone. You need other people to. That's the bubble of love that I'm sure we'll talk about again. Oh, and if I finish the song, I'll record that in a couple of weeks probably.

[Dr. Alex]

And we'll be back with you next week and we hope you'll join us.

[Jordan]

It's okay to have needs. It's okay to have needs. It's okay to have needs like everybody it's okay to have needs.