Erin Moriarty (2:35)

What bothered you? Tell me.

Victoria Hurd (2:36)

It was his arrogance. It was his minimizing. Not talking about what he did, you know, and not showing any kind of remorse.

Erin Moriarty (2:51)

No remorse. But Daniel said he was changing, finally learning how to connect with others and let go of hate.

Daniel Marsh (3:02)

We must always, always embrace our human.

Victoria Hurd (3:16)

The audience was celebrating him as he spoke. Good job on your recovery. And you could feel that coming from his audience.

Erin Moriarty (3:24)

Victoria says she couldn't quite believe her eyes. The audience rose to its feet and applauded. This was not a man, she believed, who had changed.

Victoria Hurd (3:37)

I felt like, no more. No more from you. We did a loving thing by putting you behind bars. This is a loving thing to our family and our community that's suffering. And then you're going to keep coming. No.

Erin Moriarty (3:56)

Chip and Claudia's family wanted to move forward and heal. So they pushed to get the video removed from the Internet. And it was. But that video wasn't the last they'd see of Daniel Marsh. New laws in California intended to rehabilitate young offenders were about to put Daniel's case in the spotlight again.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (4:23)

This was a massive undertaking to essentially reopen the case.

Erin Moriarty (4:28)

It had been five years since Daniel Marsh had killed two people. Was it possible that in that time he had changed? That certainly was his contention.

Daniel Marsh (4:42)

I'm not who I used to be.

Erin Moriarty (4:45)

And if so, could he walk free?

Sarah Rice (4:48)

The fear was overwhelming.

Erin Moriarty (4:56)

I'm 48 Hours correspondent Erin Moriarty and this is 15 Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders. Episode six hurt people. In his TEDx talk in March 2018, Daniel Marsh talked about why he believed he had changed for the better. And there was a reason for that public appeal. It was because of a new state law that might give Daniel a chance of freedom.

Victoria Hurd (5:36)

One of the most controversial propositions on California's ballot would impact the state prison system and some say, public safety.

Erin Moriarty (5:43)

A ballot proposal called Prop 57 reformed the state juvenile criminal justice system. It would allow only judges, not prosecutors, to decide whether certain juveniles would be tried as adults in court. And among those who had voted for the new law were Chip and Claudia's children. Victoria explained why.

Victoria Hurd (6:10)

Of course I want our children to be rehabilitated. I think that there's a lot of young criminals in the adult system that shouldn't be there. So yes, I want to support any kind of rehabilitation for young people.

Erin Moriarty (6:26)

But did you think that might include Daniel Marsh? I did not.

Victoria Hurd (6:28)

I did not think that would include Daniel Marsh.

Erin Moriarty (6:35)

But Daniel's attorneys argued despite the violence of his crimes, he should benefit from Prop 57. And an appeals court agreed and granted Daniel a new hearing at the Superior Court of Yolo County. Now a juvenile court judge would go back, listen to the evidence, and decide if Daniel Marshall should have been tried as a juvenile instead of an adult. And this is what was at stake. If the judge ruled in Daniel's favor, he would then be tried as a juvenile. And even if he was again convicted, the state could be forced to set him free on his 25th birthday.

Judge (7:24)

Okay, madam Clerk, lets go on the record in case JD18,332. In the matter of Daniel William Marsh.

Erin Moriarty (7:37)

The judge had to weigh several factors, including the sophistication and gravity of the crime. Prior juvenile delinquent behavior and the probability of rehabilitation.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (7:52)

You know, of course, my memory of Daniel is him telling me he wants to put a pen in my neck and crush my head with a laptop. So. Right. I was skeptical.

Erin Moriarty (8:08)

That's Dr. Matthew Soulier, who took the witness stand for the defense. He's the psychiatrist I spoke to in the last episode, who was fishing first asked to evaluate Daniel Marsh in 2013, five years after the trial, he had received a call from Daniel's defense team asking if he would meet with their client again.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (8:33)

We were being asked for the first time as child forensic psychiatrist, is Daniel amenable to rehabilitation? And this was new, quite frankly. And why start with this guy? I mean, this guy is extremely challenging.

Matthew Logan (8:48)

And.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (8:48)

And I said, I'll give it a shot. I'd like to see what he looks like five years later. And I went and met with him.

Erin Moriarty (8:54)

And was the same Daniel Marsh sitting in front of you when you walked in?

Dr. Matthew Soulier (9:00)

No, he was different. Well, he wasn't a boy anymore, obviously, so he was more grown up. He had more of the appearance of an adult. He was much warmer. Immediately he remembered that he had threatened to harm me. He, without me prompting, expressed remorse for it, said he was sorry, and then proceeded to tell me how he had grown, how he had changed, how he had so called done the work, and that he had gained a lot by being around people who had been compassionate towards him.

Erin Moriarty (9:39)

In his testimony, Dr. Soulier said Daniel had begun his rehabilitation early on in juvenile hall.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (9:48)

He's still not out of the woods. He's still got some definite growth and maturation to do, but he's grown a lot emotionally.

Erin Moriarty (9:57)

As for Daniel's past fixation on killing.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (10:00)

Others, the homicidal ideation, those thoughts, imagery, intentions to kill other people, have completely ceased.

Erin Moriarty (10:09)

Per his report, Daniel told Soullier that he had never felt better.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (10:16)

It was his opinion that he could live violent, free, that he could be set free at 25, and that he could live without violence.

Erin Moriarty (10:25)

I first spoke with Dr. Soulier a few months after his 2018 testimony at the hearing. But you did testify that you thought he could be rehabilitated.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (10:37)

I did and I didn't. I was struggling because I, of course, I was struggling with just the nature of what he did. It was horrific. It's hard to contemplate that the mind behind that crime is changeable. He did a horrible crime. He's a psychopath. Let's throw him away. Why are we even having this silly hearing? And I too, I grappled with it too he is an extreme.

Erin Moriarty (11:00)

You wrote in your report, Mr. Marsh is manipulative, intelligent, and capable of deceiving this evaluator and others.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (11:09)

I did.

Erin Moriarty (11:11)

And if he is in fact lying to you, wouldn't that make you more concerned about his ability to be rehabilitated?

Dr. Matthew Soulier (11:20)

It would be if he was lying and being disingenuous about everything, then, right? That would be a pause for concern. But there are some things that he can't lie about. There are other factors to consider as it relates to transfer. There is the absence of his delinquency history. There is the absence of a court reaching out to him and trying to help him before he did this. There are things that he can't lie about that help his cause and gave me reason to go in and try to opine that he should go back to a juvenile jurisdiction.

Katie Ring (12:00)

Crime doesn't take a day off and neither do we. I'm Katie Ring, host of Crime House Daily. Twice every weekday, we bring you the biggest crime stories as they unfold. In the morning, get the latest updates. At night, dive into the moments that matter. Follow us at Crime house daily on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode.

Erin Moriarty (12:25)

Dr. Matthew Soulier was hired by Daniel's defense team. So when his testimony wrapped, the prosecution called its own expert on psychopathy, forensic psychologist Matthew Logan. While Logan had never met Daniel Marsh, he did examine his records and saw that when he had turned 18, Daniel had scored a 35.8 out of 40 on a widely used psychopathy checklist. It was one of the highest scores for Dr. Logan had ever seen. In other words, according to this assessment, Daniel Marsh had nearly all the traits of a psychopath.

Matthew Logan (13:13)

Some of the traits are glib, superficial charm, grandiose sense of self worth, pathological lying, criminal versatility, lack of responsibility, inability to feel remorse.

Erin Moriarty (13:28)

Dr. Logan also highlighted a psychopath's ability to con and manipulate.

Matthew Logan (13:34)

Well, they have an uncanny ability to use their charm and use a lot of real savvy as opposed to just street intelligence, but street smarts in order to con and manipulate police, psychologists, national parole board, the courts.

Erin Moriarty (13:56)

Logan told me at the time that releasing a psychopath like Daniel Marsh was dangerous.

Matthew Logan (14:03)

It definitely means that, that this person is not going to be easily rehabilitated or not rehabilitated at all by any means that is being used within the correctional system. I think this is going to be something that he's going to be dealing with the rest of his life.

Erin Moriarty (14:20)

Do you believe that Daniel Marsh could kill again and will kill again?

Matthew Logan (14:24)

I believe that he could kill again. And if I was being asked to make a decision on the likelihood, I would say it's more likely than not that he would kill again.

Erin Moriarty (14:36)

This was the chief concern for Claudia and Chip's family members when they were allowed to give impact statements at the hearing. Here's Chip's daughter, Mary Northup.

Mary Northup (14:49)

I was raised to believe that people deserve a second chance. But a second chance is really only worthwhile if one acknowledges and understands the issues that caused the failure in the first place and has the desire and ability not to do the same thing again.

Erin Moriarty (15:09)

Mary acknowledged that no punishment would ever bring back her father.

Mary Northup (15:15)

But the one thing this court could do is protect all the other families from suffering as ours has suffered at the hands of this defendant.

Erin Moriarty (15:26)

As she spoke, Mary alternated her gaze between the judge and Daniel.

Mary Northup (15:33)

He didn't look at anyone that gave a personal statement. I was surprised because if he's a really good manipulator, he at least looks and tries to be empathic. But I think he didn't look because he realized he couldn't feign empathy.

Erin Moriarty (15:56)

After the victim's statements, the judge requested a brief recess, and Daniel's defense team returned with a surprising announcement. Daniel himself was going to testify.

Judge (16:12)

Daniel Marshall witnessed and direct exam by attorney Pellicito.

Erin Moriarty (16:17)

Daniel described his time first in juvenile hall and then an adult correctional facility. He admitted to taking drugs inside prison and that he had been hospitalized after cutting his wrist.

Daniel Marsh (16:33)

You know, again, when I first came in, I. I made a lot of mistakes. And one of those mistakes was, you know, experimenting a little bit with meth and then a lot with heroin. And I ended up using heroin pretty consistently for a little over a year.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (16:53)

That include injecting it?

Daniel Marsh (16:55)

It did, yeah. Eventually it got to the point where I was. I had my own rig, as they call it, syringe.

Erin Moriarty (17:04)

But Daniel said he stopped using drugs when he became involved with groups like TEDx inside the prison. Have you learned anything in any of these groups about responsibility for your own behavior?

Daniel Marsh (17:19)

I have, yeah. That was mainly through errors in criminal thinking.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (17:25)

Can you tell the court a little.

Erin Moriarty (17:26)

Bit about what you learned?

Daniel Marsh (17:28)

Sure. I guess what it comes down to is like the main errors in criminal thinking is like the selfishness behind it and the self centeredness behind it, not taking into account how your actions affect those around you and affect other people in negative ways. Again, like feeling entitled, feeling like it's all about you, or feeling like you can. Like the rules don't apply, I guess. And part of breaking that way of thinking is accepting responsibility for your mistakes and for your actions, you know, and acknowledging and beginning to, you know, like, work through what the things that you have done have done to other people. I guess.

Erin Moriarty (18:16)

Daniel Marsh insisted that he was a changed man. No longer the troubled child who had viciously murdered two people.

Daniel Marsh (18:27)

I mean, it's night and day, man. It's completely different. You know, I no longer struggle with mental illness. I've worked through the vast majority of my anger and hate.

Erin Moriarty (18:41)

And for the first time, he addressed his victims families.

Daniel Marsh (18:47)

Nothing I ever say or do will ever be enough. But I'm. I'm sorry. I'm. I'm sorry. I'm sorry I took them away from you. I'm sorry for all the pain that I've caused you. I'm sorry for the pain that I'm sure I'm still causing you. I'm sorry for every horrible thing that you've gone through because of me. I'm sorry for everything. And if I could undo it, I would. And I know that until I truly process what I did, then I can't really give you the apology that you deserve. I can't even bring myself to look at you. But I really. And I know you don't think I'm being genuine, but I just really hope that at least to some extent, you're able to receive this. Because I'm truly sorry.

Erin Moriarty (19:52)

But for Chip's daughter Mary, that apology didn't sound sincere.

Mary Northup (19:59)

For me to be convinced that he's sorry for what he did would be for him to talk about it and to say, I did that, and that was awful. And he really. Even in his apology, all he said was, that was another me. That was a dark me, you know, that's. He wasn't willing to embrace that. That really was him.

Erin Moriarty (20:37)

At the opening of the last day of the hearing, Daniel Marsh smiled and exchanged pleasantries with his lawyers as they waited for the judge to enter the chamber.

Judge (20:50)

Okay, Madam Clerk, let's go on the record. In the matter of Daniel William Marshall case JD18,332. And what I have before me is a written court order.

Erin Moriarty (21:03)

Daniel looked down as the judge read from his order.

Judge (21:09)

The legal basis of the Remand was the November 9, 2016 passage of Proposition 57.

Erin Moriarty (21:17)

After going over the details of the crime in the case against Daniel, the judge announced his decision.

Judge (21:26)

In conclusion, the seriousness of the offense, both in terms of its sophistication and the gravity, along with the finding that Marsh has made little progress in rehabilitation in the past five Years support the ultimate ruling in this court to transfer the case to adult criminal court.

Erin Moriarty (21:45)

Daniel's original sentence, a minimum of 52 years in prison, would stand. As the judge announced his verdict, the courtroom remained silent. Daniel kept his eyes locked on the floor and didn't visibly react. But Claudia and Chip's family members did. They gathered to hug each other and cry.

Sarah Rice (22:15)

We did it.

Erin Moriarty (22:16)

We did it.

Victoria Hurd (22:16)

We did it.

Erin Moriarty (22:17)

You did it. And yet, it was still not over. Daniel's legal team continued to pursue appeals in the wake of yet another new California state bill that went into effect in January 2019. This one would prohibit 14 and 15 year olds from ever being tried as adults, even killers.

Victoria Hurd (22:48)

To me, this is terrorizing.

Erin Moriarty (22:53)

Although Victoria had voted for Prop. 57, she actively protested against this newest state law, known as Senate Bill 1391. With Daniel Marsh on her mind.

Victoria Hurd (23:10)

I realize that this man is not the typical juvenile offender. However, the passage of this bill will make all juvenile offenders one in the same. There will be no discernment and no responsibility. If 1391 is passed, the man who murdered my parents and many others like him will be released into society at age 25.

Erin Moriarty (23:33)

In response to Senate Bill 1391, Daniel's defense team appealed his 52 year prison sentence, arguing that this latest new law should be retroactively applied to his case. It raised the possibility that once again, Daniel could be eligible for an early release. He was not giving up on getting out.

Sarah Rice (24:03)

The the overwhelming amount of fear that I had of him knowing, first of all, knowing us.

Erin Moriarty (24:09)

That's Sarah Rice, Claudia Maupin's granddaughter.

Sarah Rice (24:14)

He knows our names. Of course he does. He's seen us in court. And then it was the capacity that he could get back on the streets and do what he's done again. Yes, that fear is overwhelming. And I was thinking about every little kid and every woman that was running on the streets, or a family that was walking in a park, or an individual that was sleeping in their home.

Erin Moriarty (24:41)

Daniel's latest appeal made its way to the California Supreme Court in 2021, but was sent back to a lower court the next year. The state supreme court ultimately rejected the appeal in 2023. So at least for now, Daniel Marsh remains in prison. According to the correctional facility where he is currently being housed, Daniel will be eligible for parole in December 2036. He'll be 39 years old. But that's subject to change. Even behind bars, Daniel marsh has left a deep mark on many of those involved in his case.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (25:30)

My experience is, if you work in crime, there's always going to be one or two cases that are just not going to go away. They're going to haunt you in the sense of. I always remember him. He's indelible to me.

Erin Moriarty (25:45)

When I spoke with Dr. Matthew Soulier again in 2025, he said his thinking about Daniel Marsh had evolved since our first conversation.

Dr. Matthew Soulier (25:57)

Yeah, I have had experiences in my life that have also made me much more attuned to the experience of being a victim. And it has changed me. It's changed my process. And meeting over 100 kids that have killed people. Now I have a totally different. I think I would approach Daniel very differently than I did in 2018. He should be the kid that deserves different consequences, different considerations. He will always be a psychopath. And that there would be grave danger to letting him out.

Erin Moriarty (26:38)

As for Chip and Claudia's family, they still grieve deeply. It's impossible to overstate the trauma caused not only by Daniel Marsh's actions, but by the investigation that followed. If you remember, in the early days after the murders, one of Chip Northup's grandsons, Tony, was mistakenly identified as the possible perpetrator. That created tremendous stress and financial problems for him and his family. In October 2016, at age 31, Tony died by suicide. His family, including his father Robert and brother Oliver, were left to grieve yet another terrible loss. This case has left a mark on me, too. With all the killers I've met, even spoken to, I've never encountered anyone so unknowable as Daniel Marsh. Daniel's crimes still have ripple effects to this day. Victoria Hurd and Sarah Rice now work with other families who have been harmed by violent crime and continued to advocate changes to state law. So people like Daniel Marsh never walk free. And they continue to share memories of Chip and Claudia.

Sarah Rice (28:19)

Because, you know, at the end of the day, for me, I have a responsibility. And my responsibility is to show the world who my grandmother was and the life that she lived, not the life that she died by, not the way that she died.

Erin Moriarty (28:34)

Do you know Chip and Claudia's family remember them for everything they created. The years of joy, laughter, and music. This is Victoria.

Victoria Hurd (28:55)

I never remember a day that I didn't speak with her or love her or ask her for direction or giggle with her. She was my world.

Erin Moriarty (29:12)

Mary Northup also remembers walking nearly every day with her father, Chip, catching up on their lives.

Mary Northup (29:20)

He had this voice, too. Sometimes, you know, Mary, you know, you could hear it, and it made me feel good to know it was there.

Erin Moriarty (29:29)

You can hear Claudia and Chip enjoy the festivities of Claudia's 75th birthday party. It was held just a year before the two were killed. They laughed and they sang with friends. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday. The memory of Claudia and Chip lives on through their family, while the man who took their lives and fantasized about taking others sits behind bars.

Victoria Hurd (30:05)

For now, he will never understand how wonderful they were and are.

Erin Moriarty (30:32)

This is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh Murders this series was reported by me, Erin Moriarty. Alan Peng is our producer, Maura Walls is our story editor and Jamie Benson is the senior producer. Megan Marcus is the Vice president of podcast editorial for CBS. Special thanks to 48 Hours executive producer Judy Tygard, along with 48 Hours producers Judy Ryback, Stephanie Slifer and Greg Fisher from Goat Rodeo. This podcast was written and produced by Kara Schillen, Max Johnston, Jay venables, Isabel Kirby McGowan, Megan Nadolsky and Ian Enright. Additional reporting and recording by Kara Schillen. Our executive producers at Goat Rodeo are Megan Nadolsky and Ian Enright. Original theme and music by Hans Del she with additional music from Paramount Final Mix by Rebecca Seidel. Fendel Fulton is our fact checker. Our production manager is Kara Schillen. I'm Erin Moriarty. If you're enjoying this show, be sure to give it a rating and review. It helps more people find it and hear our reporting. If you liked 15 inside the Daniel Marsh Murders, check out the rest of our 48 Hours podcast by searching 48 Hours on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening.

Katie Ring (32:22)

Crime doesn't take a day off and neither do we. I'm Katie Ring, host of Crime House Daily. Twice every weekday we bring you the biggest crime stories as they unfold in the morning. Get the latest updates at night. Dive into the moments that matter. Follow us at Crime house daily on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode.

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Judge (32:57)

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