Phil Lord & Chris Miller (Project Hail Mary / The Lego Movie / Cloudy With A Chance...) • #388

Summary

Films To Be Buried With – Episode #388

Guest(s): Phil Lord & Chris Miller
Host: Brett Goldstein
Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Films To Be Buried With features the prolific writing-directing duo Phil Lord and Chris Miller (The Lego Movie, Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, and the recent Project Hail Mary). Brett Goldstein guides them through reflections on death, creativity, partnership, and the films that have shaped them as filmmakers and people. With signature wit and warmth, the episode blends banter, deep insights on collaboration, and a lively discussion about movies that matter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. On Project Hail Mary and Choosing Projects (05:18 - 11:15)

• "Are you buzzing?"

  • Chris and Phil discuss the surreal feeling of a new release being a hit:

    "I feel great. I feel slightly confused because there's nothing to, you know, fight against or push for." – Phil Lord (05:36)

• Why Choose "Project Hail Mary"?

  • Drawn to tough creative challenges and stories that are ultimately hopeful, not bleak.

    "We're kind of masochistic about wanting to do something that seems like, how would you do that? ... [And we want] stories that suggest people are maybe 51% good." – Chris Miller (06:32, 07:15)

  • Appreciating the scientific and communal aspects of the story:

    "Science is social... It's about bringing people minds together." – Phil Lord (10:41)

• Process and Approach

  • They emphasize collaboration with their team and actors, highlighting Ryan Gosling’s skills and the energy Sandra Hüller brought to their latest film.

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2. The Lord & Miller Team Dynamic (11:15 - 16:00)

• How They Direct Together
  • Not 'divide and conquer'; instead, they remain joined, collaborating in conversations through every step and alternating who communicates notes to actors to avoid confusion.

    "Filmmaking is just a series of conversations ... and that's sort of what we do with each other." – Chris Miller (11:29) "We try to get excited about the fringes of the Venn diagram—the thing that Chris is interested [in] or that I'm interested [in] that he wouldn't have thought of otherwise." – Phil Lord (12:55)

  • Their relationship is like brothers; earlier, they fought over details (e.g., "the shape of Abraham Lincoln's nose in Clone High"), but now it's built on loyalty and mutual respect.

    "The backstop of it is a massive amount of loyalty and understanding." – Phil Lord (15:06) "And admiration and respect." – Chris Miller (15:40)

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3. Death, Legacy, and the Afterlife (16:41 - 23:06)

• Comedic Imagined Deaths
  • Chris invents an absurd boating/snorkeling accident involving his daughter; Phil dies peacefully in his sleep (murdered to cover up Chris’s death).
• Fears & Philosophy
  • Chris shares anxieties about death in "little waves"; Phil worries about "running out of time" for unfinished projects.
  • Both discuss what might come after death:

    "I'm really struck by... how personality can come and go with brain function, and wonder if our common idea about heaven is rooted more in our wiring and storytelling instincts than in reality." – Phil Lord (19:35, 21:50)

  • Lord and Miller touch on spirituality in science and the narrative power of belief.

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4. Films to Be Buried With: The Big Questions (26:03 - 76:00)

First Films They Remember (26:03 - 28:13)

• Chris: Star Wars, Wizard of Oz, Singing in the Rain (VHS trifecta)
• Phil: Star Wars in theaters, Popeye (Altman), family debates at age three

Film That Made Them Cry (28:21 - 29:46)

• Chris: E.T. ("I was a flipping wreck...")
• Phil: Now cries easily at anything; brags about it:

  "Anytime I cry at anything, I take a picture of myself and send it to Irene." – Phil Lord (29:08)

Film That Scared Them Most (31:12 - 32:59)

• Chris: Poltergeist ("absolutely terrified" at a sleepover)
• Phil: Muppet Show's "Pigs in Space" intro (scared as a kid)

Movie They Love That’s Not Critically Respected (33:41 - 36:20)

• Phil (and Chris): Altman's Popeye ("the movie is made of cocaine... grotesque, bad taste, messy, not glossy")

  “The two-tone of it is bananas... And I think I've always been, like, drawn to bad taste somehow...” – Phil Lord (35:36)

Movie They Used to Love But No Longer Do (38:01 - 40:31)

• Chris: The NeverEnding Story – "Slower paced than I remember"
• Phil: Finds he’s more generous with films now, but notes that high-design 80s films (e.g., Tron, The Black Hole) are visually amazing but narratively slow.

Most Meaningful Film Experience (41:03 - 43:59)

• Both: Seeing 2001: A Space Odyssey at university was a lightbulb moment calling them to filmmaking.

  "I just saw this movie and I think I know what I want to do for the rest of my life." – Phil Lord (42:05)

• Phil: Uncle Carter's independent Florida swamp horror film, The Enchanted, inspired him with the realization that regular people can make movies.

Testing & Audience Reactions (44:43 - 47:03)

• They test films extensively—12+ times with small and official audiences.
• Focus is on clarity, humor, and engagement ("You make a movie with your head, but you watch it with your body" – Phil Lord, 21:22).

Film They Most Relate To (47:40 - 49:43)

• Phil: Jokes “Teen Wolf,” but goes deeper—relates to stories about underdogs, outsiders, and finding your place (e.g., Harold and Maude).
• Chris: Their own films, which are about "nervous people that don't really want to be in the situation, and then ... have to step up." (48:31)

Objectively Greatest Film (52:46 - 56:59)

• Chris: Casablanca ("It's so funny and so good and so heartbreaking... hard to beat that." – 52:46)
• Phil: Seven Samurai ("A movie that never stops having its pleasures... melodies and songs last, and so do movies like this." – 55:41)

Sexiest Film (57:53 - 59:18)

• Chris: Claudia Cardinale's dance in The Pink Panther ("I had an awakening ... I would listen to that song to try and remember that feeling." – 57:54); also, the "bedroom eyes" scene between Nala and Simba in The Lion King.
• Phil: Rocky IV ("The sexual tension between Drago and Stallone... homoeroticism.")

Comedy: The Film That Made Them Laugh Most (64:00 - 65:53)

• Both: The Jerk (Steve Martin), a formative comedy experience and bonding touchstone.

Most-Viewed/Endlessly Rewatchable Film (60:42 - 61:21)

• Chris: Star Wars, Wizard of Oz, Singing in the Rain, due to limited VHS as a child
• Phil: Zoolander ("A movie that I can't turn off... it's so funny and works as a story.")

Attitude Towards “Bad” Films (61:54 - 63:52)

• Both resist criticizing movies for "not being good," instead admiring ambition and effort:

  "If you're trying something and you're trying to do something different, even if it doesn't work for me personally, I never want to [put it down]." – Chris Miller (63:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Their Working Relationship:

  "I love you, Chris. I'm sorry if I haven't told you that this morning so far." – Phil Lord (15:52)

• On Afterlife Narratives:

  "What does it matter whether it's something that's happening inside your gray matter or you're truly ascending to a place? The story of how we live is as powerful and valuable as some reality." – Phil Lord (21:49)

• On Puppet Use in Hail Mary:

  "That’s what the movie's about. It’s not a waste of time if what you’re capturing is the main, you know, is the focus of the movie." – Phil Lord (37:42)

• On the Power of Seeing Movies Young:

  "It was the first time I realized that a person could make a movie, that a movie was made by someone." – Phil Lord (43:30)

• On Film Compulsion:

  "I don't know what I would do if we weren't doing this." – Phil Lord (51:01)

• On Narrative Generosity with Age:

  "As I've gotten older, I have only gotten more generous with the movies..." – Phil Lord (38:52)

• On Rewatch Value:

  "A movie that never stops having its pleasures." – Phil Lord on Seven Samurai (55:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Project Hail Mary & Filmmaking Philosophy: 05:18 – 11:15
• Working as a Directing Duo: 11:15 – 16:00
• Death, Mortality & Afterlife Discussions: 16:41 – 23:06
• Heaven/Dinner Party Improv: 23:22 – 26:00
• First Films/Movie Crying/Scares: 26:03 – 32:59
• “Bad” Movies & The Case for Popeye: 33:41 – 36:20
• Relationship to Art Over Time: 38:01 – 40:31
• Formative Film Moments: 41:03 – 43:59
• Test Screenings & The Editing Room: 44:43 – 47:03
• Relatability & Metaness of Their Work: 47:40 – 49:43
• Greatest Films/Cinematic Pinnacles: 52:46 – 56:59
• Comedic Bonds (The Jerk): 64:00 – 65:53

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In Closing: Final Movie Choices for Heaven (70:57 – 73:43)

The film both would take to heaven:
Defending Your Life (Albert Brooks' 1991 comedy about the afterlife, personal growth, and courage)—funny, smart, emotionally resonant, and perfectly on-theme for their imaginary eternal dinner party.

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Tone and Language

The episode is breezy, self-effacing, and frequently hilarious. Lord and Miller riff off each other with brotherly warmth, and Brett keeps the talk moving with genuine curiosity and comedic timing. Their language is candid, often irreverent, but always affectionate toward each other and the films discussed.

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Takeaways

Listeners are treated to rare insight into the creative partnership behind some of modern cinema’s most inventive blockbusters, along with honest reflections on mortality, the value of emotional vulnerability, and the films that shape us. Lord and Miller’s enduring secret: chase what seems impossible, embrace the mess, and always test for heart.

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For Further Listening

Hear more from Phil Lord & Chris Miller with extra Q&A and secrets over on Brett’s Patreon.

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Transcript

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[Chris Miller]

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[Phil Lord]

Look out.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

It's Only Films to be Buried with. Hello and welcome to Films to Be Buried With. My name is Brett Goldstein. I'm a comedian, an actor, a writer, a director, a Magic 8 ball, and I love films. As Christian D. Larson once said, to be so strong that nothing can disturb your peace of mind. To talk health, happiness and prosperity to every person you meet. To watch Singing in the Rain with friends and feel better about the world. Every week I invite a special guest over. I tell them they've died. Then I get them to discuss their life through the films that meant the most to them. Previous guests include Kevin Smith, Barry Jenkins, Sharon Stone and Even. But this week we have the incredible filmmakers, writers and directing partners. It's Phil Lord and Chris Miller. You can still watch my film, all of you, which I made with Will Bridges and Imogen poots on Apple TV. You can watch Shrinking Season 3, episode 9 came out this week. You can watch all of the episodes up to episode nine, season three every Wednesday on Apple TV. Head over to the [e-mail] BrettGoldstein where you get extra time with Phil and Chris. We talk beginnings and endings. They tell me a secret. You get the whole episode uncut ad free and as a video. Check it out [e-mail] BrettGoldstein so Phil Lord and Chris Miller. You might know them from the Lego Movie. 21 Jump Street, 22 Jump Street Cloudy with a chance of meatballs and Spider man into the spider verse and all sorts of other things. Their new film project, Hail Mary came out just last week. Go see it in the biggest cinema you can. You'll fucking love it. This was my very first time meeting Phil and Chris. And we recorded this over Zoom the other week. They were brilliant. I love this one so much. I think you're really going to enjoy this too. So that is it for now. I very much hope you enjoy episode 388 of Films to be Buried With.

[Brett Goldstein]

Hello and welcome to Films to be Buried With. It is I, Brett Goldstein. And I am joined today by by voice artists, by producers, by executive producers, by writers, by directors, by clone hires, by Lego Moviers, by Spider man, by machines, by Oscar winners, by more Spider man types, other Cloudy Meatballs, Hail Marriers, Sheep detectives and cloners. They're two of the biggest legends in Hollywood. I can't believe they're here. It's Bill Lawrence's children. Please welcome to the show. It's Chris Miller and Phil Laird.

[Chris Miller]

Hello.

[Phil Lord]

Hey. Fantastic.

[Chris Miller]

I thought you were gonna say sheep cloners, which would have been really fun. Thanks for having us. Hello.

[Phil Lord]

That was such a nice introduction.

[Chris Miller]

We are delighted.

[Phil Lord]

Felt like the E Street Band. That's right.

[Brett Goldstein]

Lovely to meet you guys. I'm a huge fan.

[Phil Lord]

Likewise.

[Chris Miller]

Seems easies huge fans.

[Brett Goldstein]

And we both come from Bill Lawrence school.

[Phil Lord]

It's true. Or television godparent.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

And he loves you very much.

[Brett Goldstein]

He's very proud of you.

[Chris Miller]

That's right. He. He took us under his wing when he was the ripe old age of 28, maybe 30.

[Phil Lord]

He was 30. And we were the only people on the Disney lot.

[Chris Miller]

We were like 24. Ye.

[Brett Goldstein]

Wow.

[Phil Lord]

We were the only people young enough to be mentored by him.

[Brett Goldstein]

Fucking hell. Is it? I forget that when he did scrubs, he was like 12 and he was a child.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

And Zach Braff is like, you know, he was Zach Braff's daddy. He was only like a year older.

[Phil Lord]

It's true.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Crazy. You too. God, you've done well, haven't you? You've done so well. Congratulations on everything.

[Phil Lord]

We've done very badly. Also that just that people don't publicize the bad stuff.

[Chris Miller]

We just keep chugging.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

We are talking to you on the weekend that project Hail Mary came out. It is already a smash hit. One of the biggest hits of the year. So I've read.

[Chris Miller]

It's very exciting.

[Brett Goldstein]

Are you buzzing?

[Phil Lord]

We're super happy.

[Chris Miller]

We are. I feel good.

[Phil Lord]

I feel great. I feel slightly confused.

[Brett Goldstein]

Why?

[Phil Lord]

Because there's nothing to, you know, fight against or push for.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. For a weekend.

[Phil Lord]

I was on the phone with what Do I Do partner Amy Pascal this morning about like. She's also confused. She's like, I don't know what to do. Who.

[Brett Goldstein]

Who do we need to fight today?

[Phil Lord]

Who do is. No one knows. Everything's good.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's right. It's a. It's a fantastic film. I saw it a screening of it last week. It's fucking brilliant. I don't know how you made half of it.

[Chris Miller]

We had a lot of help. We had like a thousand people helping us make this movie. So.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah. The boring answer is lots of people that were very talented worked very hard for a long time.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay, can I ask for all your projects? Is there a thing that makes you want to do something? Like, why project Hail Mary? Or you just love the book or like, what. How come that was your next project?

[Chris Miller]

Well, I think there's like two different parts. Right.

[Phil Lord]

It seemed really hard.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah, two parts. One is that it seems hard and we're kind of masochistic about wanting to do something that seems like, how would you do that? And this one has, like, features an alien with no face, no eyes, no mouth that speaks in whale song. And you're like, oh, that seems like a challenge to make you care about that thing. That seems hard in an intriguing way. And the other part is just about like, is it. Does it have something to say? Does it. Is it hopeful? A positive, and instead of like bleak and grim dark. So we usually gravitate towards stories that at least are not, you know, naive, but suggest that people are maybe 51% good.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's nice. That's how it plays.

[Chris Miller]

Oh, good.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Because I guess it does when you. It doesn't feel. It's interesting because it doesn't feel grim dark, but in the sort of background of the film, it is grimdark, the

[Chris Miller]

world's ending apocalyptic story.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. But it. But it feels very lovely and warm and you sort of. About two hours in. You like. Oh, yeah. The world said this is really grim dust, but I feel it's weird.

[Phil Lord]

It's. Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's a very funny movie about dying.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. And I love. I'm a huge Sandra Healer fan. I was so glad to see her in it.

[Chris Miller]

Oh, my God, she is the best

[Phil Lord]

funny.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes.

[Phil Lord]

She would claim not to be, but she's really funny.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah, it's true. If you've ever seen Toni Erdman.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes.

[Chris Miller]

Have you ever seen the film Tony Erdman? She's really great in that. And you know, the Amount of range that she's got and the nuance is great. She brought a lot of, like, subtlety and warmth to what could have been like an ice queen stock character.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Was part of the. Because it's almost like Castaway for the first. I don't know how long until he meets Rocky. So was that part of the challenge of, like, how do we make. Although you did Last man on Earth as well, didn't you?

[Phil Lord]

Or you remember, we used a lot of Last man on Earth tricks and then mostly cut them out. But the point was, like, make it seem like a pretty good time. Like wish fulfillment to be alone.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

For most of it. And then ultimately most of that stuff didn't work in a movie for some reason. It was, you know, we had him, like, goofing off on the ship a lot, trying to just make sure that you didn't, like, he's in trouble, but you don't feel punished as an audience. And he's making the best of it while he tries to remember what he's supposed to do. But ultimately we actually wound up blazing through that stuff and emphasizing more how lonely he felt. Because the story about a guy who feels lonely on Earth and then he makes a friend in space. And so it was like the first act really winds up needing to express that he's longing for something that he. That he doesn't have and might not ever have.

[Chris Miller]

And the real secret is he's working with one of the great actors of our time.

[Brett Goldstein]

I think that helps.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

Convey anything really helpful.

[Brett Goldstein]

That really helps.

[Chris Miller]

It's a hot tip for any up and coming young filmmakers. Just work with Ryan Gosling and he'll make it good.

[Phil Lord]

That's my advice to film students out there.

[Brett Goldstein]

Pretty good idea. It's such a great. It's so early and it really, like, sets the time for it. I love when he goes, am I smart? I really like that.

[Phil Lord]

Oh, I'm so glad.

[Chris Miller]

I love that moment.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's, like one of my favorite bits. It's such a good sort of marker of the tone of it and everything. It's great. And also, you tell me. I liked that. It was like, I haven't read the book. Forgive me. Maybe it's all in the book. But I liked that it was like, low key. A film about science that was like, science is good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Miller]

That's kind of Andy Weir, the author's whole bag, right. He, like, he wrote the Martian and. And this book and another book called Artemis. And they all are like, hey, let's Solve problems using science and in our brains. And I think that's part of what draws people to it because, you know, you're not. There's not like, evil villains that we have to blow up. It's, you know, it's being resourceful and. And, like, MacGyvering things with science.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, well.

[Phil Lord]

And for a book that's written in the first person, to me, the most interesting idea in it is that science is social.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

It's not like a solitary person in a lab coat who's, like, away from the world in a castle. He's like. It's about bringing people minds together. All of us have worked in television comedy rooms for a lot of our lives. Like, the compounding effect of different people's intelligence is so powerful. And I love that Andy represents that.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's nice. I'm sorry if you've been answering questions like this all weekend, so forgive me. How do you work together as directors? I can guess how you work together as writers. But how does it work?

[Phil Lord]

I don't know. Someone else could tell us.

[Chris Miller]

We don't, like, divide and conquer is the real thing. We sort of are joined at the hip and go around and it's a lot of conversations, you know, like, we what? Filmmaking is just a series of conversations with your, like, your heads of departments, with your. Your cast, with your. With your crew. You're coming, you're having a conversation, making a decision, and then you're trying some stuff out. And if it doesn't work, you. You switch it up. And that's sort of what we do with each other. When we were writing, we have a little conversation, and then we, like, separate and write scenes and we swap them, and then we bring it together and then we have another conversation and do it again. But when we're directing a scene, we've talked about the scene for months. By the time we're actually shooting it, so we're pretty much on the same page. And the rare times when we have a slight difference of opinion, we'll be like, okay, well, you go talk to them and suggest your idea. And then once we get that, after a few takes, then we'll go in and go, like, you know what? Let's try it the other way just to mix it up and see how that is. And then we figure it out in the editing room.

[Phil Lord]

I'd say, as we get older, the thing that used to be more competitive between takes and ideas, and now I'm just so grateful anyone has a take in any direction. Like, oh, you know, how to do this. Please go, go, go, go, go. And if I think of anything while we're doing this, I will chime in. But it's kind of like we're trying to make. It used to be just the narrow part of the Venn diagram, and now, I think more frequently we try to be modest enough to, like, get excited about the fringes of the Venn diagram. The thing that Chris is interested or that I'm interested, that he wouldn't have thought of otherwise.

[Brett Goldstein]

So there isn't a rule, like, only one of you talks to the actors or anything like that.

[Chris Miller]

You're just like, we do try.

[Phil Lord]

It'd be better for them, probably.

[Chris Miller]

In between, once we start, after we've rehearsed it and do it, we generally have, like, one person go talk to the actor. We look at each other, go, like, a little more energy, right? Yeah. Okay. And then one of us will run in and talk to him. Because if you have both of us in either here, it can get confusing. So we try to. But we're usually, you know, very aligned on what we want to do. So it's. It's pretty easy.

[Phil Lord]

It's also a trick from. From, like, puppeteering. Just that, like, when. If you're, like, doing Avenue Q and you're doing this, all the other performers will look at the puppet's face and make everyone concentrate up here so that you're like, oh, that's. I guess we're looking at that. There's, like, social aspect to it. So if we're together talking, I try to, like, not look at you. I try to look at Chris, right?

[Brett Goldstein]

So that it's like, all right, he's the puppet.

[Phil Lord]

So he's like, so one of us.

[Chris Miller]

I'm the puppet, the focus of attention.

[Phil Lord]

And I'm not, like. Especially if you're getting a note. To watch two people stare at you at once is a little. It could get confusing.

[Brett Goldstein]

Are you a puppeteer?

[Phil Lord]

No, I just wish I was. I'm the only aspiring puppeteer.

[Chris Miller]

No, I'm with you one day. One day, Phil. Careers are long.

[Phil Lord]

Careers are long.

[Brett Goldstein]

So you two. You two just love each other. Just love each other and want to be together all the time.

[Chris Miller]

We. We do. We. We, you know, we. We have had arguments. You know, it comes up from time to time. But. But we generally, especially, like, early on, we had more. We had more, like, real, like, dig our heels in fights about stuff. One of them was of the shape of, like, Abraham Lincoln's nose in Clone High, like, was like, really?

[Phil Lord]

Or A circle. And so we. We settled on a rounded square. It just felt bad. Felt pissed off about it for. For months afterwards. It's like, I love Chris dearly, but. And it is like a brother relationship, you know, that you are. You're around each other all the time. There's like ebb and flow. And ultimately the backstop of it is a massive amount of loyalty and understanding that you have someone there in your corner if things go poorly.

[Chris Miller]

Right. And admiration and respect. I don't think it would work in a partnership if you didn't like, really value the other person's contributions and look forward to how they were going to make it better.

[Phil Lord]

But I love you, Chris. I'm sorry I didn't. Haven't. If I haven't told you that this morning so far.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah, and I love you too, Philip.

[Phil Lord]

I told you last night, but I'm gonna tell you again.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay.

[Phil Lord]

I'll tell you every day.

[Chris Miller]

There it is.

[Brett Goldstein]

This is in public, so.

[Chris Miller]

Well, this is becoming therapy session. Is this couples therapy? Is that where we're at? Is this a good intervention?

[Brett Goldstein]

Couple brothers.

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[Brett Goldstein]

I forgot to tell you. I forgot to tell you something and I should have told you at the beginning. Yeah, just say you've died. You're both dead.

[Chris Miller]

Oh, no.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris Miller]

That's too bad. I'm sorry to hear that.

[Phil Lord]

Oh, I was working on my will.

[Brett Goldstein]

No, I. You went out on top, you know.

[Chris Miller]

That's right. There you go. Keep on wanting more. That's what I always say.

[Brett Goldstein]

Did you. How did you die?

[Chris Miller]

Oh, it was a freakish. A freakish boating accident, unfortunately. I really. I really. Yeah, I was. I was trying some snorkeling and I let my daughter operate the boat while I was in the water.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, God.

[Phil Lord]

I'm gonna pin this on her.

[Brett Goldstein]

She can.

[Chris Miller]

It's her fault. She's gonna live with like. She'll live with the guilts. How old is gonna be very sad. She's 13, so she really shouldn't have been operating machinery.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's side Roman.

[Phil Lord]

But I'm sorry, that's Quite gory.

[Brett Goldstein]

Just chop choo choo, choo, choo, choo.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah. It was not. It wasn't pretty.

[Phil Lord]

No, she. It was the snorkel. It ruined. It sucked the snorkel up. And then you didn't. You were too far under the water.

[Chris Miller]

And then it became chum for all the fish. And all the beautiful sea creatures ate up my. My chum. It was beautiful. It was beautiful.

[Phil Lord]

It was beautiful. A school of seahorses. Blossoms.

[Chris Miller]

At least they got some good pictures out of it.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, my God. What about you, Phil? How did you die?

[Phil Lord]

Oh, golly. I died peacefully in my sleep.

[Chris Miller]

Oh. Yeah. Beautifully.

[Brett Goldstein]

When.

[Phil Lord]

When Chris's daughter smothered me.

[Brett Goldstein]

Because you were on the boat and you were the only one who knew how it happened.

[Chris Miller]

You should have been.

[Phil Lord]

You're the.

[Chris Miller]

You're the. You're the only eyewitness.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, exactly.

[Phil Lord]

No one must know.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's a pretty good way to go. Do you. Do you worry about that? You too?

[Chris Miller]

From time to time it comes in like little waves where you're. Where you're like. And then I have to compartmentalize that part of my brain and then. And not let it take over because

[Phil Lord]

I worry about running out of time.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

More than anything. Like, I owe like an essay to like a professor like 30 some odd years from now and I don't know if I have enough time to write it.

[Brett Goldstein]

You do. You do owe an essay though, don't you? Spider verse three. We do.

[Phil Lord]

That is an essay. Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah, it is. Hopefully.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah. That's a more immediate deadline.

[Brett Goldstein]

You can ask for a 30 year extension, but I think they're going to be.

[Chris Miller]

I think we've asked for enough extensions on that one.

[Phil Lord]

That's true.

[Chris Miller]

We're going to the, the, the. The school year is almost over.

[Brett Goldstein]

Uh, what do you think happens after you die? Is there an afterlife?

[Chris Miller]

I hope so. That would be real nice. Or we all become particles that become part of everybody else. Go into the ocean.

[Phil Lord]

I'm really struck by. My mom had surgery this month and her recovery was. She's doing great. She. Her recovery was slow the first couple of days and for the first couple of days, like, she wasn't like herself. It was like, oh, this is like, this is like a vessel. And then like on the third day there was a like, oh. Suddenly like her personality returned and I was really struck by that. And I just wondered if that's interesting. Yeah, like something about, like something goes offline. Something about ourselves is. Is like in the back of our head somewhere and it can be switched off.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, somehow.

[Phil Lord]

And I wonder if that is. Is kind of literally what happens. And I don't know what your experience of that is. Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

What was her experience of the two, three days, whatever, where she wasn't herself? Did she remember it?

[Phil Lord]

No, she didn't have. She. I think she said she came in and out, and I don't think she had anything like a near death experience or anything. Just a. She was a lot of discomfort. It's interesting to me that many people have the same. They describe it like, linguistically, the same way there was a light. You probably know a lot more about this than we do hosting this podcast, but I wonder how much of that is in the way our heads work and the way our narrative. Not to be a buzzkill. Okay, Chris. Maybe Chris is right. There's just an afterlife. But I always wonder how much of that experience is something that we create with our narratively focused minds that are hardwired to tell stories and imagine things. If that's not something that we all kind of do.

[Brett Goldstein]

As in, like, the brain is just showing a bright light because it's shutting down and we've put a story to it. Like, the light is heaven and you're heading towards it. Right.

[Phil Lord]

And what's interesting about, like, testing movies in front of audiences, they always say the same stuff. Like, it threw me out of it. You know, I was so into it. There's like these linguistic clues for how people feel. You know, you watch. You make a movie with your head, but you watch it with your body. And. And so they're always trying to describe this feeling of like, basically engagement and. And listening intently and then somehow not being able to do that.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

And so I always wonder if those, if our common, like, ideas about what heaven is has to do more with, like, something about our. Our wiring. And then I also think, like, what does it matter whether, like, what. Whether it's like something that's happening, like, inside of like, your gray matter or you're truly ascending to a place. Does it make a difference? You know, like, our story of how we live is as powerful and valuable as some reality of what it is. And we did try to make a movie about a guy going to heaven,

[Brett Goldstein]

you know, please, please make it right.

[Phil Lord]

Like, leaving, like going into. Leaving the ground and going to the heavens and finding enlightenment and making your best friend and then choosing to stay there. And. And basically the end of the. The end credits, we told the title guys, these guys, alma mater, we do all our titles where they're like, Take me to heaven and take me to church and try to show me what that looks like, you know? And so it is. You know, it's called Hail Mary, and his name is Grace. And so we did try to think about the spiritual side of science and outer space. And many scientists that we met are deeply spiritual.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Fantastic. What a great answer. Thank you.

[Phil Lord]

We're done.

[Brett Goldstein]

Well, I wanted to. I sort of. I suppose I've got a go. Stay with the format, but I want to. I want to think about that. It's just really interesting.

[Chris Miller]

You want to just keep talking about death for a while.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Do we have to talk about films? We should listen. I got news for you.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay, buddy boys. There's a heaven. And you're going, there is a heaven. Can you imagine?

[Chris Miller]

Oh, great. Thank you.

[Phil Lord]

Save this so much time.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's filled with your favorite thing. What's your favorite thing? Chris and Phil.

[Phil Lord]

Nerds Gummy clusters.

[Chris Miller]

I mean, that is a really delicious thing.

[Brett Goldstein]

Which one?

[Phil Lord]

Nerds.

[Chris Miller]

Gummy Clusters.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay.

[Phil Lord]

You can eat as many of them as you want.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

They're new on the candy scene in. And we're. And we really should get, like, sponsored by them.

[Phil Lord]

We are going to get something. They better send us some. It's been a huge part of this press tour.

[Chris Miller]

I do think a delicious meal with a bunch of friends and loved ones at a large table, a raucous large table of great food is the best thing.

[Brett Goldstein]

So like the Last Supper, but with more jugs and it's.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah, yeah. And less like, oh, I'm going to die now and drink my blood. And more like, hey, this tastes delicious,

[Phil Lord]

and I'm so happy. Can I build on this? Can I? Yes, please answer yes.

[Brett Goldstein]

And me.

[Chris Miller]

And there will be nerds. Gummy clusters on the table, obviously.

[Phil Lord]

Obviously, there'll be nerds. Gummy clusters on the table. And the table is also made of nerds. Gummy clusters. So you can just pinch it off

[Chris Miller]

and put it in your head. I mean, we are in heaven after all. Let's do it.

[Phil Lord]

It's also an infinity table that goes off to infinity with every person I've ever met or ever would want to meet. And with just your mind, you never have to excuse yourself from a conversation.

[Chris Miller]

It just ends and no one's insulted.

[Phil Lord]

You can hit a button like shuffle, and then the seating arrangement automatically just changes.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's good.

[Phil Lord]

And now I'm next to someone else, and I can either make it, I can set it to random, or I can just slide people down, but that thing when you're at a big table and, oh, I really want to talk to Bread, but he's way over on the other end.

[Brett Goldstein]

And I don't know how to engineer

[Chris Miller]

this polite, extricate myself in this conversation.

[Phil Lord]

I think we should. Yeah, there should be musical chairs at a dinner party. Everybody should stand up and move around and sit back down again.

[Chris Miller]

There we go. Less than 7. We can make it happen.

[Brett Goldstein]

That might solve my fear of dinner parties if there was more musical chairs being played.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah, it's the fear of being anxiety. Like, does Brett want to talk to me as a whole, all three courses. That seems unfair to him.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, but I deserve again. And 20, 23. What were you up to? Yeah, okay, You. You're in the heaven. It's a massive dinner party, but it's musical chairs. You can shuffle it. And everything is made out of nerds. Gummy clusters. And everyone you've ever met is really excited to see you. They're huge fans, but they want to talk to you about your life through film. And the first thing that they ask you is, what is the first film you remember seeing? Chris and Fit.

[Chris Miller]

All right, so the first film, I am told, that I went to the movie theater for was Star wars as a child. And then I had a very early VHS player that had. We had three VHS tapes, and they were wizard of Oz, Star wars, and Singing in the Rain. And so those are the movies that I saw hundreds of times each and were basically the only movies I knew for.

[Brett Goldstein]

For a while. Wizard of Oz, Star Wars, Singing in the Rain. Yeah, that's. You put them together, you get Project Hail Mary, discuss.

[Chris Miller]

I mean, in a way. In a way. Certainly in a Lego Movie, for sure. By the way.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Miller]

Is the real wizard of Oz all of those things in a blender?

[Brett Goldstein]

What about. What about you, Phil?

[Phil Lord]

I have the same basic story. It's Star wars in a theater, but the videotapes are the Robert Altman, Popeye, and

[Chris Miller]

Howard the Duck.

[Phil Lord]

No, that's too late. That must have been. That was later, because the wizard of Oz was on TV every Thanksgiving in America. So that was like a thing you did as a family. But I remember we have a family reunion every year in Portland, Maine, and in this house that some member of our family has lived in for hundreds of years. And I remember the conversation in the kitchen. A family debate about whether I, at three years old, should go see Star wars with my grandma or not. And it was. I remember my cousin. My cousin was at the Hail mary premiere. Chris DeLonge, was passionately arguing that I should be allowed to go, because I think that meant that he could go again.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, great. And he won. We went.

[Phil Lord]

We went. My grandma wanted to see it. She was a sculptor, and it didn't really go to the movies, but she was really interested in. And, like, the shapes.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Did it do. Do you remember thinking, I want to make shit? Or were you just like, I just love it.

[Chris Miller]

Not at that point.

[Phil Lord]

At that point.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

I was barely a zygote. I don't remember much.

[Chris Miller]

The idea that you could make. That you could make those things was like a little foreign. Foreign concept. Until later, I think.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Now your film's very moving. All your films are moving. What's the film that made you cry the most? And are you criers?

[Chris Miller]

Now that I have children, I cry all the time. I'm like. I turn it into a massive softie.

[Brett Goldstein]

Well, yeah, one of them is the serial killer. Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah. But the first movie I remember sobbing in the theater and feeling embarrassed to. That I was crying was E.T. i remember I just was a flipping wreck in that movie. And I was like, I didn't want anyone to see me for some reason. I mean, I don't know.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's some.

[Phil Lord]

Some.

[Chris Miller]

Maybe that's a good therapy to get. For us to get into. But, yeah, that was that. But now I just cry all the time. I mean, being afraid to be seen crying.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

I don't know. Being a. Does being a boy in the 80s, I think.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah. What I love about, like, this movie and over the last, like, couple of weeks, like, hearing people's reactions is how people want to brag about how many times they cried. I cried twice. I cried three times. There's a bravado about it, and I can relate to this because anytime I cry at anything, I take a picture of myself and send it to Irene. I see I have really deep.

[Chris Miller]

I'm not a robot. I have feelings. I don't bleed paste.

[Phil Lord]

I cried at the super bowl during Bad Bunny.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes.

[Phil Lord]

And. And then I cried, most recently during the Oscar telecast at the Burger King commercial about how they were like, we heard you, and we're going to make Burger King.

[Chris Miller]

Sorry, guys. We really effed up.

[Phil Lord]

So sorry to brag. But now, basically, anything. If I'm tired enough, truly, anything makes me cry.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. I watched the Oscars, and as someone who isn't from America, I could not believe the commercials were 90% medicines. It was so many medicine. I was like, what is wrong? What the fuck? Everything was medicine.

[Phil Lord]

It's medicine. Here. Here. Medicine costs money.

[Chris Miller]

And it was all. It's all the warnings they have to tell you legally.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Three. Three hours of warnings.

[Chris Miller]

They're like, oh, yeah. May cause dizziness, nausea, vomiting.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

And hair loss.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah. In. In England, they just give you the medicine.

[Brett Goldstein]

They just give you the medicine.

[Phil Lord]

Five quid.

[Brett Goldstein]

And then we'd have advertising medicine.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

Give it to you.

[Chris Miller]

No need to sell anything, guys.

[Phil Lord]

They come to your house and give it to you.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. They come talk to it.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

But here, that. No, here, that's like. They market it. It's very silly.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's crazy. What is the film that scared you the most? Do you like being scared?

[Chris Miller]

When I'm feeling safe and confident, I, like, go. I like a scary movie. But when I am in a dark place, it's like the last thing I wanted to see.

[Brett Goldstein]

Right.

[Chris Miller]

The first time I remember being, like, absolutely terrified was seeing Poltergeist at a sleepover. But then I watched it recently and I was. And I have to say, I was not scared.

[Phil Lord]

You're like, it's a movie, Chris. It's not a big deal.

[Chris Miller]

I know. I mean, I think, like. Like now, like, the ones that are, like, disturbing and, like, stay with you in a disturbing way, like barbarian or hereditary, those type of movies really kind of like, stick with me in a way that's unsettling. I don't know. What about you, Phil?

[Phil Lord]

My earliest memory of being scared was not a film. It was.

[Chris Miller]

Was it a Burger King commercial?

[Phil Lord]

No, it was. It was the Burger King commercial.

[Chris Miller]

It was when that King is. Scared the shit out of me.

[Phil Lord]

No, it was a Muppet show segment called Pigs in Space.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes.

[Phil Lord]

And it started with a theremin sound. And I would watch that show with my parents on a black and white television. And when pigs and Pace started, I would scream and run out of the room. And my parents thought it was the funniest thing. I've never gotten less sympathy from them. They just would cackle with delight every

[Brett Goldstein]

time I ran out. What do you think scared you about these pigs being in space? You, like, keep them on the ground? Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

I don't know. It's like, if they can do that, what else can they do? We're just eating them. I just had, like. I grew up in Miami. So you eat Cuban bread, which is made of pig fat.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, wow.

[Phil Lord]

It's like we're. Yeah, we. They're coming for us.

[Brett Goldstein]

They can fly now.

[Phil Lord]

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[Brett Goldstein]

What is the film that you love? It is not critically acclaimed. Most people think it's shit, but you love it unconditionally.

[Chris Miller]

Oh, man. Phil, why don't you start?

[Phil Lord]

Well, I already gave. I was trying to.

[Chris Miller]

Oh, that's right. Howard the Duck.

[Phil Lord]

You didn't express to you my. Yeah, like that Robert Altman, Popeye. I was obsessed with Popeye as a kid, and when that movie came out, I'm still obsessed with it. And the movie is a movie. It's made in. They built all these incredible sets in Malta, and the movie itself is made of cocaine.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes. It's crazy.

[Phil Lord]

It's very crazy.

[Chris Miller]

It is really insane. You know what? I'm glomming on to your answer too crazy.

[Phil Lord]

But the two tone of it is bananas. Like, it's. It's sort of serious. It's a Robert Altman film. So all the. Like, there's all that overlapping dialogue and this interest in, like, tertiary characters that are just kind of blobbing over there. And meanwhile, like, you know, I'm having, like, a sexual awakening over olive oil. And there's. And there's. There's like, these big cartoon gags where they made a Robin Williams that is in the shape of a big circle so that they could. And then they just. Like a hula hoop. They just push him and he rolls down the cobblestone streets of the village that they built. And so it's funny, sort of. And it's slapstick sort of. And then it's very captured. And I've always liked the confusion of that tone, that those two things were, like, intertwined and were somehow okay, like,

[Chris Miller]

grounded and real and then like a crazy cartoon.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah. Insane. And then, like. But the production design is, like, at once, it's really, really beautiful. But it's also super broad.

[Chris Miller]

And the shanty town.

[Phil Lord]

I don't know. It's always, like. It's.

[Brett Goldstein]

There's.

[Phil Lord]

It's grotesque kind of.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes.

[Phil Lord]

And it's in bad taste. And I think I've always been, like, drawn to bad taste somehow or, like, not or. Yeah. Not considered taste or not uptight or things that are kind of a little bit messy and not. I don't know, not too classy, you know, not too preoccupied with being cool or consistent. And when I was, you know, as an animator and a painter, when we were Chris and I met in college, I was always interested in, like, seeing the scenes of something, but that was always more fun to me than having it be glossy and clean. And I think we made a movie that. Where you see the seams all the time.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Is that why. Is that why it's like that?

[Chris Miller]

Yeah, I think we. Yeah, we don't really go for, like, slick and glossy, like a, like, Apple Store. Listen, I love the Apple products. They're great. But in a movie, you know, you want it to feel like. Or we want it to feel like messy and.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

And tactile and real.

[Brett Goldstein]

I really liked that. And I did. I didn't know in Project Hail Mary until afterwards that it was a puppet, that Rocky was a puppet on set.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

And I.

[Brett Goldstein]

And I was really. I was like, oh, that's why it felt like they had a real relationship, because he was there. I was like, that's.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah. That all the conversations are Ryan and James Ortiz, the lead puppeteer of Rocky. And so we got all these great moments of spontaneity that are great. And in the end, the movie is about 50, 50 puppetry and animation. But every time they're talking, there's always James and always a puppet there just so that we could get that chemistry.

[Brett Goldstein]

And was that always the plan before you started anything? Yeah. So, okay, so, yeah, from the. Ryan Gosling knew you weren't like, he wasn't. You could say to him, you're not going to be on your own.

[Chris Miller]

Exactly. Ryan was super happy about it. And, you know, other people were like, it's going to slow us down. It's going to make it a lot more complicated. We have to build the sets up so we can hide the puppeteers and all this other stuff and. But it was so worth it because the chemistry between those two characters was everything.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

This is what the movie's about. Like, it's a. It's not a waste of time if what you're capturing is the main, you know, is the focus of the movie.

[Brett Goldstein]

What is a film that you used to love very much, but you've watched it recently and you do not like it anymore. And that may be because you've changed all the times.

[Chris Miller]

Well, okay. I did show my kids the Never Ending Story a year or two ago. And I was like, you're going to love this. It is full of wonder and awe. And I Wouldn't say it's not good. I still love it. But it is slower paced than I remember, and my kids were less enthralled and entranced with it than I was as a kid.

[Brett Goldstein]

Is that when your daughter suggested you come on a speedboat?

[Chris Miller]

Let's go for a boat ride. Should we go for a boat ride instead, dad?

[Phil Lord]

If you show me one more of these slow movies,

[Brett Goldstein]

one more 80s piece

[Chris Miller]

of shit I know I'm going to

[Phil Lord]

run over your snorkel and feed you to a bunch of seahorses. Oh, yeah? Let us see you try, Cora.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. What about you, Phil?

[Phil Lord]

I have had a hard time. We almost did this podcast a few days ago, and I've had three days to think about this answer, and I can't really think of one because as I've gotten older, I have only gotten more generous with the movies, if that makes sense. I have a million answers to movies that people don't like that I kind of like. And struggling to think of this because increasingly I just appreciate how hard they all are to make.

[Chris Miller]

It is true.

[Phil Lord]

And so in the long view, when I go back and look at old things, I more go like, oh, look at that. There are movies that we all love. The first Tron, let's say that, like, is an outrageous accomplishment of production design and like, vision. And I can watch it, but it is pretty damn slow. And most of those movies, like, I was talking about the Black Hole the other day, another movie that's just like, outrageously ambitious and so beautiful and like, very influential to me. And it is merged, it's super grim, dark, and it's. It's kind of hard. I feel like the common denominator of those movies that you reassess just the story doesn't quite get there. And it's the flaw of most of these high design pictures where there's so much emphasis on how it looks and feels. And sometimes you feel like, oh, we didn't. They spent a lot of time doing that. And no one spent the time making sure that it was in service of a crisp story that had momentum and didn't flag.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay, I'll accept it.

[Chris Miller]

We get to stay in heaven and eat the nerds. Gummy clusters. Still no.

[Phil Lord]

Do I get kicked out of this table? I don't want to leave.

[Brett Goldstein]

I will be pressing shuffle fairly soon.

[Phil Lord]

Shuffle now. I'm talking to my cousin Beverly.

[Brett Goldstein]

What is the film that means the most to you? Not necessarily the film is good, but because the experience you had seeing the film will always make it Important to you?

[Chris Miller]

Oh, man. We both saw 2001 in our university theater and came out of it going like, oh, that. That was the first time I'd ever seen that movie. And we both were like, oh, that seems like something we could do.

[Brett Goldstein]

Wow.

[Phil Lord]

The Douglas Trumbull sequence at the end with all the eyeballs and light show stuff, it cleared the rooms. My girlfriend and some of her girlfriends came. And I remember that sequence starting. Everybody was seated. That sequence ended, and the rest of my row was gone, including my girlfriend. And only me and Chris were still in the immediate vicinity. And I did get, at that time, to call home, you had to get on a payphone because it was the 1900s. And I got into this payphone by the. Right outside of the theater, and I was talking to my parents and they were like, what did you do? I just saw this movie and I think I know what I want to do for the rest of my life. And there's a big pause and my mom said, well, I don't know. Have you thought of computer science? She's a refugee. So she was like, I do not think this is a good idea to have a career in the arts. And over time, you know, they're on board now, but it terrified them. But it was very clear to Chris and I that, like, oh, that's. This is the thing for us. And I've had that moment.

[Brett Goldstein]

You both had this at the same moment?

[Phil Lord]

Yeah, yeah, it's happened. Maybe it happened to you, Chris, when you were younger. For me, this happened one other time, which is my uncle, my dear Uncle Carter made an independent film. I grew up in Florida, and in central Florida, he made a horror movie called the Enchanted. And he did it with his friends. It's actually a quite beautiful movie with beautiful photography about, like, a cowboy that. That meets a woman who is actually a quail that has become a person. And then it. And then it doesn't work out, and it turns into this horror movie and they get chased by wolves and stuff. And it's in the sub. Subgenre of Florida swamp horror. And there's another great movie called Frogs that's in this vein. But it was the first time I realized that a person could make a movie, that a movie was made by someone. And I remember they toured. They had a hard time distributing that movie. They just toured it around themselves and they brought it to Miami and I saw it and showed my entire classroom of, like, third graders. It was totally inappropriate for them, but I was so proud of him. And so. And it made Such an impression on me that that was a job.

[Brett Goldstein]

Was he in it?

[Phil Lord]

He was not in it, but his car was in it. That was a mind blower. I was like, that's Uncle Carter's car.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's fucking great. So the two of you sat there watching 2001 and it ended and you said, we should make films that clear it, clear the audience.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we could clear the room.

[Phil Lord]

Exactly, exactly. Well, we often have said, like, I don't know how this is going to work out, but let's make someone's favorite movie. Yeah, right. That goes all the way in one direction so that you're not, you know, we don't really make movies. We've been lucky that like, people have like gone to see Hail Mary, but like, we aren't strategic going, oh, if we add this, it will please the audience. It's more like, what is the fullest expression of this story?

[Brett Goldstein]

Can I ask you, with Project Hail Mary, I'm always fascinated with film. How much testing and how many sort of pickups did you do? The sort of back end of it?

[Chris Miller]

We didn't do any reshoots, but we did get a lot of footage while we shot. And thankfully with a puppet character with no face, if you need them to say something different, it is easy. But we test our movies a lot. And I don't want to say like testing with like a like official testing audience. We bring in like writer and filmmaker friends to watch the movie again and again. And we kind of just watch them and often they'll give us smart thoughts. But oftentimes it'd be like, oh, they were confused about this moment or this area. We lost their engagement. We could tell they were like shifting their seats, checking their watches, like, okay, we have, you know, and, and that was our sort of method to like, okay, we, we can explain this thing. They're confused by. We should get rid of this thing that I think they're bored by. And so we did that. You know, we had to probably do that 12 times. 12 times during the process. Yeah, a lot.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah, we did it a lot over the course of like, with, with different

[Brett Goldstein]

people every time or with this.

[Chris Miller]

We did three official recruited screenings. Yeah, three. Three official recruited screenings. And the other times would be like sometimes very small groups and other times like medium sized groups of friends and family and like filmmakers and sometimes the same people. And sometimes we try to get new people in there.

[Phil Lord]

Sometimes if somebody really loved it and like the third screening, we invite them back like, like three months later and go like Is it better, is it worse if we. Yeah, we ruin it. You know, like you can over bake stuff and.

[Brett Goldstein]

But.

[Phil Lord]

But you know, you understand like what you're trying to. Like you're. You're trying to see like what's funny.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah.

[Phil Lord]

You know, like they should tell you. And when something bombs, you know, and how crummy that feels. Like I'd rather know now and get. Figure either solve it or cut it out so that we. So that you stay engaged. That's really what we're thinking about.

[Chris Miller]

And. Yeah. And then this movie particularly because there's so much science that happens in it and we want it to be something that's understandable to people even if they don't.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes.

[Chris Miller]

They're not science lovers. You're like, how much can. What can we. How little can do we have to say? How much can we show cinematically before people are confused?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

And so the only way to know if we've gone too far one way or the other is to show it to people.

[Brett Goldstein]

Well, it was perfect. Tell me this.

[Chris Miller]

Okay.

[Brett Goldstein]

Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney. Let's go get ready for a new case.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Phil Lord]

New friends. Gaelic the Snake and your last name, Death Snake Dream team. New habitats.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Zootopia has a secret reptile population.

[Brett Goldstein]

You can watch the record breaking phenomenon at home. Zootopia 2 now available on Disney Plus.

[Phil Lord]

Rated PG.

[Brett Goldstein]

And right now you can get Disney

[Phil Lord]

plus and Hulu for just 4.99amonth for three months with a special limited time offer.

[Brett Goldstein]

Ends March 24th. After three months, Plan Auto renews at 12.99amonth.

[Phil Lord]

Terms apply.

[Brett Goldstein]

What's the film you most relate to?

[Phil Lord]

Teen Wolf.

[Chris Miller]

Teen Wolf and how so.

[Phil Lord]

No, maybe that's not good.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's how you felt. That's cool. Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

People often. Yeah. Like one of the things we. One of our cute lines we say, but this is true is like we can't relate to winners. You know, there's something about like growing up, you know, in the middle of the pack that like I don't understand stories about people who are just like throwing touchdowns all the time and that are fearless, you know, it's like people that are. That are fearful and worried and I mean we just made this like a space epic about social anxiety basically, you know.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

And so a lot of our movies are about like someone trying to figure out how they're going to fit into like a group.

[Brett Goldstein]

Right.

[Chris Miller]

And yeah, a lot of. Yeah, it's a lot of like, dorky but sincere people who get thrust into a situation and have to rise to a difficult challenge, like the Cloudy Chance of Meatballs. Was that Lego Movie Spider Verse this. They all are, like. They're nervous people that don't really want to be in the situation, and then. And then they have to step up. So I can relate to all of those pretty well.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. So the film you might relate to is your own films.

[Chris Miller]

I mean, we make them.

[Phil Lord]

The movie that we love from college that we kept trying to get everybody to watch was Harold and Maude.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, yeah.

[Phil Lord]

Right. So it's like a melancholic teenager looking for someone to, like, teach him how to be, you know, like, what's beautiful about life. And I think that the dichotomy of, like, being cynical and. And aware of how crummy things are, and then, see, meeting somebody who's, you know, Maude is a Holocaust survivor who chooses to witness how glorious everything is. And him learning that lesson, to me, it's like, that's always. That's. It's not. Never far from my thoughts.

[Brett Goldstein]

So isn't the reality of your lives that if you two are socially awkward, not winners in your own head, that you then go and do the difficult thing? Like in Project Hail Mary, he does the difficult thing, but your difficult thing is making Project Hail Mary. Yes, making these things. And these things are huge, mammoth things that you have to tackle to pull up.

[Chris Miller]

Is that Exactly.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. What's your secret?

[Chris Miller]

The metterness of this is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Phil Lord]

And the success of it is completely abstract.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes.

[Phil Lord]

You know, the challenge of it is the thing you experience.

[Brett Goldstein]

You know, I do sort of get it. And maybe you don't know the answer. If you're. If you're shy, socially awkward, all of the things that I am, like, what's the thing. What's the thing in you that goes, but I could make a film. Or is that not.

[Chris Miller]

It's a huge contradiction.

[Brett Goldstein]

Right, Right.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah. It's a. It's a massive contradiction of, like. Yeah, feeling awkward and outside and then going like. But having the irrational confidence of, like, oh, but I could do it. And then. Then you get into it. You're like, oh, wait, I am so uncomfortable. I'm still doing it.

[Phil Lord]

But didn't Chris. Didn't you have that when you were. Yeah, maybe not the confidence. The compulsion to make things. I had it when I was nine.

[Chris Miller]

You're like, I don't know what I would do if we weren't doing this.

[Phil Lord]

I don't know what is it for you, Brett. I'm always interested in this question of what makes people do this stuff for their job and not just be your fun friend.

[Brett Goldstein]

I genuinely had no other interest or plan. Like, I'd say it is weird because I'm shy and all that stuff, but I did always. It's funny, I talked to people I went to school with, and they're like, yeah, we always knew you'd do this, because I think at school I was making stuff. Like, I just always was making stuff, and I. The thought of doing anything else made me really depressed. So there was like, no, there was never an alternative. I don't really know how I ever did it, but I just. That's all I thought about, all I wanted to do, all I cared, all I was interested in. That's.

[Phil Lord]

I. Yeah. Compulsion. That, to me is like the common thread. Is that, like, knowing some of you. What, like the stories of you growing up, Chris, is that you would just generate things.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah. Yeah. There was a Thanksgiving that I made a puppet turkey and, like, did some crowd work while the. While the dinner was being made.

[Brett Goldstein]

The turkey was asking people what they did for a living.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah. It was like, yeah, exactly. And we're just doing stuff with this thing. And then I sat down at the table and they put the turkey on the table, and I said, uncle Larry. And my grandmother was like, honestly, that boy, I'll never forget. I'll never forget her face.

[Phil Lord]

She hit shuffle on the dinner table.

[Brett Goldstein]

Right. That's great. What is objectively the greatest film of all time? It might not be objective, but if aliens came and they said, what is the pinnacle of cinema? You would show them this film.

[Chris Miller]

I rewatched Casablanca about two years ago. This is a pretty. That's a pretty stock answer, but it's a good one. Holds up so well. It's so funny and so good and so heartbreaking. It's about something. It's super emotional. It's got a great ending, and it's got good, hard laughs that are still. That are still funny today, which is so hard to do. So it's got all of it. It's got the heartbreak and memorable lines. Yeah. It's got.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

Iconic moments. It's got literally everything we try to do in movies, like, about something. Be emotional, be funny and. And break your heart. It's hard. Hard to beat that.

[Brett Goldstein]

Why do you think the. The jokes were.

[Chris Miller]

Now, It's a good question. I think it's like, that they're not. Like, a lot. A lot of times, you know, with old Films, like, they're like. Sometimes they're like snappy references to things. You're like, I don't know. That's you all over. And like, okay, I don't know what that is, but. But this is like, I'm shocked that there's gambling in this establishment. Is like, a bit that, like, will always work.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's a character. Right? That character.

[Chris Miller]

Exactly.

[Brett Goldstein]

Jokes rather than.

[Chris Miller]

Yes, exactly.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

Comes from the personality type.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

Like, right. They're like, we know something they don't. You know, it's like. It's like it's. And we're part of it. The audience.

[Chris Miller]

Right.

[Brett Goldstein]

What's your answer?

[Phil Lord]

I don't know. I had a hard. I had a hard time with that. I thought Chris was gonna pick Singing in the Rain because it's such a buoyant movie, you know, But I don't know. It's so hard. I've. I find it hard to answer this question because I. I just want to, like, give a hundred answers.

[Brett Goldstein]

But on the day you died, you were smothered by Chris's daughter. What was your. The greatest on that day?

[Chris Miller]

It is important to rank art, Phil. It's very important. You have to remember that's what we're here for.

[Brett Goldstein]

Let's not forget Zero sum.

[Phil Lord]

Game of it,

[Brett Goldstein]

you know.

[Phil Lord]

Golly, it's pretty tough. I'm trying to. Can't think of a cute answer.

[Brett Goldstein]

But it's.

[Phil Lord]

They're all dumb, like Gertie the Dinosaur.

[Chris Miller]

Are you trying to get, like, a. Outside of the box? Not just go like Lords of Arabia, first half of Lords of Arabia.

[Phil Lord]

But the problem with this question is it's a in the box question. You know, what has reverberated, you know, over the years. Yeah, that's a tough one. How do you not give a boring answer? Citizen Kane. Is that the one?

[Brett Goldstein]

You can get the answer.

[Phil Lord]

Seven Samurai.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

That's a good one.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay. You're going to have sex.

[Phil Lord]

Maybe it's that I'm just trying to think of. I'm sure everybody gives the same 10 answers. That's the trouble.

[Brett Goldstein]

But I do come up enough, and that's a good book.

[Phil Lord]

It doesn't come up enough. Right. Because it's still. There was a time when that's what I watched every night when I went to sleep.

[Brett Goldstein]

Really? Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

I got an imac. Remember those cute ones? It was like a TV with a computer inside, and it was, like, in all different colors, and it would play DVDs. And I got the Criterion of the Seven Samurai. And Every night before bed, I would just watch a sequence and fall asleep. And it's just like a movie that never stops having its pleasures. It's just over not quite 80 years later, you're just still transfixed. And I think a lot about what stands the test of time. And to me, the things that, like, last are like melodies and songs, because they can be reimagined and it can be right. It can be sung by anyone that can. They're easy to remember. You don't even need to write them down. And then every time I go to, like, the symphony or the opera, and I think about how somebody wrote something 200 years ago and, like, we're still playing it and enjoying it and how, like, that makes you a time traveler. And I know. And movies are different. They're capturing a single moment and all these gestures from an artist that can't necessarily be recreated. But that is one that. It has been so influential.

[Brett Goldstein]

That was such a good answer, Phil.

[Phil Lord]

And it's funny, too. It's not afraid. All my favorite art is funny.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. What I like about Seven Samurai, it's one of my favorite story tropes. Getting the band together is one of my favorites. I love getting a band together.

[Chris Miller]

Let's get the van together.

[Phil Lord]

Greatest.

[Chris Miller]

That's fantastic. You're, like. You take two thirds of the movie just like, collecting people, and then you're like, yes. Then you're like, I only have, like, a third of a movie to do.

[Phil Lord]

And then, like, making a plan together.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's why I love. That's why I think Jason Siegel's the Muppets was perfect.

[Chris Miller]

Oh, right. Like, exactly.

[Brett Goldstein]

Get the Muppets back together. That was the.

[Chris Miller]

We're getting the band back together gang. Let's do it.

[Phil Lord]

Get the band back together. Which is basically the plot of the Muppet Movie, which I now realize is just the Seven Samurai.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. My movie is Seven Samurai. What is the film? What's the sexiest film you've ever seen? Chris and Phil.

[Phil Lord]

Oh, all right.

[Chris Miller]

I had an awakening. This is. Okay. I had an awakening when I saw the original Pink Panther, the one with David Niven. And there's this scene where this Italian actress named Claudia Carnevale does, like, sings this Henry Mancini song and, like, shakes her hips and, like, dances around the room while everybody else in the movie is just sitting there watching it. And I, as a child, I was like, oh, these are the feelings I'm feeling. I see. And I would listen to that song that she sings all the time to try and, like, remember that feeling?

[Phil Lord]

I thought you were going to say when Nala in the Lion King.

[Chris Miller]

Oh, yeah, we did.

[Phil Lord]

I did.

[Chris Miller]

We did talk about this in the Lion King.

[Phil Lord]

The Simba.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah. When Nala tackles. And then she gives him.

[Phil Lord]

It's the sexiest look.

[Chris Miller]

She's like, oh, hey. You're like, oh, my.

[Phil Lord]

Somebody.

[Brett Goldstein]

Nala, what the hell is going on?

[Chris Miller]

I don't have to write about this. Oh, me.

[Brett Goldstein]

Betsy, what about you?

[Phil Lord]

I think it's got to be Rocky 4. It's the sexual tension between Drago and Stallone. The homoeroticism of those movies as, like, their bodies get, like, more glistening.

[Chris Miller]

More and more glistening.

[Phil Lord]

I will break you.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. What is. Now, there's a subcategory to this question. Troubling bonus, worrying. Why don'ts a film you found around? Sure you should.

[Chris Miller]

I mean, the n. The Nala. Yeah, the Nala Assimba moment was I was like, I should be thinking about bedroom eyes here with another. An animated species. That is not. That's not me. I don't think that's good. That's not a good one.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's a great one.

[Phil Lord]

I mean, olive oil for sure.

[Chris Miller]

From the. Robert Popeye, Shelley Duvall.

[Phil Lord]

Shelley Duvall, who? It was a proper sex symbol a little bit before popeye in that, like, 70s, way too skinny person aesthetic. Yeah. And then you're watching this movie where she's wearing, like, big silly boots and has her hair funny. But there is something that has a young, young person, and it's like, huh, I see what. I see what he sees in her.

[Chris Miller]

I guess I get what. I guess why Bluto and Popeye are fighting over this person.

[Brett Goldstein]

The stakes of this film are clear. What is the film you could or have watched the most over and over again?

[Chris Miller]

Could or have watched the most. As I said before, I had those three. Three VHS tapes. And so I think from a just a volume standpoint, those were the ones that I actually watched the most. But the one I could watch the

[Phil Lord]

most, a movie that I can't turn off when it's on tv, is Zoolander.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, really? Oh, great.

[Chris Miller]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

That's because it's so funny. And you don't realize it actually works as a story, as a narrative. You're actually, like, following it. And, like. And Ben's stuff is always so ambitious, like, as, like, a filmmaker that you're always like, yeah, you're always just delighted.

[Chris Miller]

Just. Just rewatched that last summer for the first time in a while, and it is. It remains very, very funny.

[Phil Lord]

He's so like Zoolander. As, like, silly as that performance is, he's such a. A guy you want to root for.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

He's in. He's in a desperate situation.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. You really do care about the outcome for Z. You care.

[Phil Lord]

You feel so bad for him. He's just trapped in a body of a. Not that smart person.

[Brett Goldstein]

I don't know if you'll answer this, but what's the worst film you've ever seen?

[Chris Miller]

Oh, yeah, that one. Gonna. I think that feels right, that as filmmakers, we really have to try not to. To shit on other people's work. Because it is so damn hard to. To make anything that the last thing is.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah. When movies that people say are no good, I have this, like, punky point of view to, like, love them.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

There must be something. Chris, can you remember a movie that there's a few things that I. That the world has come around on? Like, the world really came around on Speed Racer.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

And I remember seeing that after everybody. After kind of bombed.

[Chris Miller]

But you were. You were a hardcore Speed Racer adopter.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

Yeah. And I was like, that movie. I'm sorry. This movie is amazing. It's going for it. That's what I think.

[Chris Miller]

Well, I can. Yeah. There's movies that aren't for me, but they are trying hard. I think the movies that I don't like are ones that feel like they were lazy and they. It was sloppy and nobody seemed to care and everyone was just like, phoning it in. Those are the movies that I'm like, this is. This is a bummer for me. But if you're trying something and you're trying to do something different, even if it doesn't work for me personally, I'm. I never want to.

[Phil Lord]

Like, I love it when people swing the bat. One of my favorite filmmakers is this director, Richard Rush did a movie called Freebie and the Bean and, oh, yeah, the Stuntman and. And there's a Elliot Gould movie called, I think Looking to Get Out. And they're just like. In that movie, like, everyone's just screaming the entire time. It's him and like, Candice Bergen and like, UC San Diego. It's got these really cool. They shot it at the Salk Center. All these beautiful buildings. And it's just like Elliot Gould screaming. But it's like. I don't know. I don't know. I just like that it's somebody swinging the bat really hard chasing something. And I always admire stuff like that.

[Brett Goldstein]

Me too. You're both makers of incredibly funny what is the film that made you laugh the most?

[Chris Miller]

The Jerk. That was the movie that we bonded on.

[Brett Goldstein]

Love the J.

[Chris Miller]

That we bonded on Beyond. Besides Harold and Mod, when we met each other, we were like Harold and Mod's favorite movie. The Jerk. We love. Everybody loves, like the collective, like Steve Martin of that era, movies. And the Jerk. And I have rewatched it recently and it still makes me laugh in many, many, many places.

[Brett Goldstein]

You met at university, Is that what you mean?

[Phil Lord]

Yeah, yeah, Freshman week, right. And the jerk, the first 2/3 of the Jerk are oddly funnier than the last third of the Jerk. And I realized this watching it recently, that he is a sweetheart for 2/3

[Chris Miller]

of the movie, right?

[Phil Lord]

And then he becomes like a rich

[Chris Miller]

asshole and then he becomes an actual

[Brett Goldstein]

jerk and he's a jerk.

[Phil Lord]

And then he's a real jerk. And you, you can't tolerate very much of it. You lose for some reason. You stop enjoying it as much. Even though all the bits, it's like got the cat juggling bit and all this other stuff.

[Chris Miller]

It's got the paddle game bit, which is like the best part of that whole movie.

[Phil Lord]

It's the paddle game bit. It's just so. It's full of grapes stuff. And his cockiness is amazing and so funny. And eventually you just kind of like, you're like, okay, I want to get back. And then I. And then it. And then it ends with the great thermos. You know, all I need is this thermos bed, which is unbelievable. And side, like sidebar, the Steve Martin Live that has that great live performance. Plus I think a short film where he makes like Paul Simon and give him compliments. I think. It starts with a short film called Homage to Steve. I can't remember, but I remember renting that over and over again. One of those tapes also has the Absent Minded waiter.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes, that's the one. I remember the short film.

[Phil Lord]

It's unfucking believable. And Stack of Lips. And I think thought. And my sister and I memorized that routine, basically his whole live show. And my sister, even when she went to university, she performed it, the talent show.

[Chris Miller]

My son memorized the part from the Jerk where he goes, it feels like the first day felt like seven days and the second day felt like two days. And then the third day just felt like a regular day. That is a very long, like, calculation list. And he did that for like some like, drama performance at his school because he was very so tickled by that.

[Phil Lord]

Crying. Absolutely crying. Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Steve, I love him. Chris and Phil, oh my God. You have been a joy. You have been a delight. You have been a treat. However.

[Chris Miller]

Oh.

[Brett Goldstein]

When, Chris, you had made your 13 year old daughter watch, which hate this

[Chris Miller]

film was Never ending story.

[Brett Goldstein]

And you went, never. This is going to blow your fuck.

[Chris Miller]

Which by the way, is not, not a great name for a movie. That's too slow, by the way. No, yeah, no kidding. Is a never ending story.

[Phil Lord]

Be careful with naming your films, everybody.

[Brett Goldstein]

So your daughter turns to you and goes, you really, you really think you know me? You think, you think that's me? Do you think I'd enjoy that? And you go, hey, why are you being so weird? And she goes, let's go for a little. Let's get on the boat. Let's go out for a bit on the boat. And you go, okay, okay, honey. And you go out on the boat and you say, why are you being weird? And she goes, I'm not being weird. I'm just enjoying the water. Why don't you go for a swim, dad? And you go, yeah, yeah, okay, I'll go for a swim. And she says, take the snorkel, stay small, put your head under. And you go, okay, all right. And you get in the water and you're like, you coming in? And she goes, no, I'll wait up here. You enjoy yourself. Death. And you're like, okay. Everything okay? Do you promise? She goes, yeah, everything's great. I love the movie, dad. And then you swim around and you're looking at seahorses and then you hear the boat start up. And you look up and the boat is spinning in a circle and it heads towards you and you're like, holy shit. You go to raise your hand and as you do, it gets chopped off by the rope and it pulls you in and then you're chopped. Chop to bits. Chop to bits. And then your daughter, ha ha. She's laughing. Ha ha, ha, ha ha. Laughing. She goes, that's for show me Never Ending Story. She's laughing. She takes the boat. She takes it all the way, all the way home. And you, Phil, you were on, on the, on the side you saw.

[Phil Lord]

Yes.

[Brett Goldstein]

And you go, sorry, what the hell just happened? And she goes, she goes, oh, Uncle Phil. Oh, it's so sad, isn't it, dad? Just, just. Just died. And you go, I saw what happened. And she goes, let's just go back to yours. We'll talk about it. Let's not do. Let's not panic. Let's not go crazy. You go back to yours and you say, listen, this Is insane. We need to try and find what's left of your dad's remains. We need to take you to the police station. And she goes, just lie down for a minute. Let's talk about this. And you lie down.

[Phil Lord]

You've had a big day. Fall asleep. Take a nap. It'll be clearer in the morning.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. And you're like, I feel crazy. And you lie down. You said, just close. Just think about it for a second. Just take some deep breaths. And as you take a deep breath, you realize she's holding a pillow over your face. And you try, but she's built up muscle strength from that speed bump. And she. Holding it down. Holding down. You're like. And then you die.

[Phil Lord]

And then I accept. I miss Chris so much.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, you let her go.

[Phil Lord]

And then choose.

[Brett Goldstein]

I'm walking past with a coffin. Two coffins, you know, I'm like. And I hear laughter. So much laughter. And I go, oh, Chris. Chris and Phil, they make films that make people really joyful and happy. I'm like, where's that laughter coming from? And it's. It's Chris's daughter. And I go, hey, what are you laughing about? And she goes, oh, nothing. Just big day. And I see Phil dead. I go, jesus, Phil's dead? And she goes, yeah, he's died in his sleep. And I go, where's your dad? And she goes, check the water.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

I don't know.

[Brett Goldstein]

He went for a swim earlier, so I have to drag your body. And we go looking for Chris. There's barely anything left. Seahorses ate them all. But what is there is bloated. It's much more than I was expecting.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

We stuff it in the coffin.

[Brett Goldstein]

I say to your daughter, I say, can you help me with Phil's body? She goes, yeah, I'll help you. Start chopping him up. I'm like, jesus Christ. She's laughing, Chopping him up. I stuff Phil in the coffin. Stuff you both in the coffin. There's barely any room in this coffin. There's only enough room for me to slide one DVD each into the sides of your coffins for you to take across to heaven, where it's movie night every night. What, are you going to show your giant dinner party made of nerds? Gummy clusters when it is your movie night in heaven?

[Chris Miller]

Chris and Phil go, my first thought with the. With the coffin was that you should bring, like, the Decalogue or something, because it would have a lot of discs on it or, like, you know, the complete works of the Simpsons or something. Not only because there'll be more to watch. But also, in case one of us was still alive, we could use all those discs to like, break out of the coffin and cut our way through and shovel our way through the dirt. Because you need.

[Brett Goldstein]

Let me be clear. Your daughter really, really killed you both.

[Chris Miller]

I'm super dead. I'm super dead. There's no coming back from this.

[Phil Lord]

There's no coming back. You're just basically a bunch of a pile of seahorse excrement. At this stage.

[Brett Goldstein]

She was very sort of.

[Chris Miller]

But. But the one disk that we get gets to be shown at the eternal dinner party. Eternal shuffling dinner party. All right. Okay, let's. Boy, let me think about that for one second.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay, take your time. It's your time.

[Phil Lord]

What about defending your life?

[Chris Miller]

Oh, yeah, because we'll be in the afterlife.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Chris Miller]

It's a great film. And I've. And. And it's funny and emotional and about something.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Phil Lord]

Do you think it would fill. Would it ice the dinner party and fill everyone with regret?

[Chris Miller]

They're like, oh, did we not do a good enough job back on earth?

[Phil Lord]

Right. It's like a life affirming movie. It's like a good thing. Like, it's a wonderful life. When you're on earth and you're alive, that's a really appropriate movie because you can do something about it.

[Chris Miller]

No, the message of that is he can grow during the afterlife, even though he was kind of a schlemiel on the.

[Phil Lord]

That's true.

[Chris Miller]

Back on Earth, he, like, was able to. To grow and. And life continues. Yeah, exactly. You could still grow.

[Brett Goldstein]

I. I worry that as the person in charge of this heaven, you're showing me a film about a different heaven and I'm like, oh, sorry.

[Chris Miller]

Did you like this is. Sorry, this is not the. It's not the system for you.

[Phil Lord]

Oh, I guess I can conjure up a few extra tr.

[Chris Miller]

If you want. We can turn it into like, I guess, a legal procedure if you want.

[Phil Lord]

Oh, I'm sorry, is this too entertaining or my angels strumming?

[Chris Miller]

I built the freaking mechanical table out of nerds gummy clusters, which is a very difficult thing to pull out. Exactly.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

You know what?

[Phil Lord]

Let me conjure up the dulcet tones of rip, rip, Torn.

[Chris Miller]

Torn.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay. Defending your life. Is that both your answers?

[Chris Miller]

Yeah. Yeah, I like it.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay, now we are at the end of our journey, and before we leave, could you tell everyone what to look out for? But from the minds of Chris and

[Chris Miller]

Phil, you should go to the cinema to watch project Hail Mary on the biggest screen that you can find and or afford. It is one of the movies that really rewards seeing it in a cinema with strangers and loved ones, with elbow to elbow with people where you can laugh together and cry together and be on the edge of your seat together and remember that you're part of a community.

[Brett Goldstein]

Beautiful.

[Phil Lord]

Well said, Chris.

[Brett Goldstein]

Well said. Thank you guys. I really enjoyed this. This was an absolute delight.

[Phil Lord]

Likewise, Brett, you're a truly generous host. I hope you just cut together our awkward pauses.

[Brett Goldstein]

We should do answers.

[Phil Lord]

Cut the answers and we just go.

[Brett Goldstein]

Thank you guys. I will stop the recording now. Have a wonderful death. Good day to you.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

So that was episode 388. Head over to the [e-mail] BrettGoldstein for the extra chat secrets and videos with Mr. Phil and Chris, go to Apple Podcast. Give us a five star rating but write about the film that means the most to you. It's a very nice thing to read. It helps with numbers and my neighbour Maureen loves it. Thank you very much. You can see all of you and shrinking on Apple tv. Thank you all for listening.

[Brett Goldstein]

I hope you're all well.

[Podcast Host Intro/Outro]

Thank you so much to Phil and Chris for their time. Thanks to Scrubby's Pip and the DistractionPieces Network. Thanks to Buddy Piece for producing it. Thanks to Adam Richardson for the graphics and Lisa Lyden for the photography. Come and join me next week for another incredible episode with an amazing special guest. That's it for now. In the meantime, have a lovely week and please now more than ever, be excellent to each other.

[Brett Goldstein]

Sam.

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[Brett Goldstein]

Martha listens to her favorite band all the time. In the car, gym, even sleeping. So when they finally went on tour,

[Phil Lord]

Martha bundled her flight and hotel on

[Brett Goldstein]

Expedia to see them live.

[Phil Lord]

She saved so much she got her

[Brett Goldstein]

seat close enough to actually see and hear them. Saw dog.

[Phil Lord]

You were made to scream from the front row. We were made to quietly save you. More Expedia made to travel savings vary

[Brett Goldstein]

and subject to availability. Flight inclusive packages are atoll protected.