← Films To Be Buried With with Brett Goldstein
Films To Be Buried With with Brett Goldstein
Riz Ahmed (Bait / Hamlet / Four Lions / The Night Of) • #389
00:52:11
Join your host Brett Goldstein as he talks life, death, love and the universe with one of the UK's undisputed finest actors, it's RIZ AHMED!
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- [00:02]
Riz Ahmed
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- [00:42]
Brett Goldstein
Look out. It's only Films to be Buried With. Hello and welcome to Films to be Buried With. My name is Brett Goldstein. I'm a comedian, an actor, a writer, a director, a wind chime, and I love film. As Fred Rogers once said, anything that's human is mentionable. And anything mentionable can be more manageable. And the Borrowers were much smaller than you think. Every week I invite a special guest over. I tell them they've died. Then I get them to discuss their life through the films that meant the most to them. Previous guests include Barry Jenkins, Ch Jameela Jameel, Sharon Stone, and even Flem Flummo. But this week we have actor, writer, producer and creator. It's the brilliant Mr. Riz Ahmed. You can still watch my film all of you, which are made with Will Bridges and Imogen poots on Apple TV. You can see shrinking. Season 3, episode 10 comes out this week. This one's a smasher. You can watch all the episodes every Wednesday on Apple TV. Head over to the patreon@patreon.com BrettGoldstein you can where you'll get extra time with Riz. Where we talk beginnings and endings. He tells me a secret. You get the whole thing ad free. There's a video, you get all sorts. Check it out, you'll love it. Over@patreon.com BrettGoldstein so Riz Ahmed, you might know him from Sound of Metal, the Night of Dead set, Nightcrawler. He's fucking brilliant. He's done all sorts. You've seen him in everything. He is back with his own new series Bait, which he created co show, runs, writes, produces and stars in it premiered last week on Prime Video and he's also bringing his modern day take on Hamlet to cinemas on April 10th. He's a brilliant man. This was my first time meeting Riz. We recorded this over Zoom the other week. We had a lovely time and I really think you're going to love this one. So that is it for now. I very much hope you enjoy episode 389 of Films to Be Buried With. Hello and welcome to Films To Be Buried With. It is me, Brett Goldstein, and I'm joined today by an actor, a writer, a director, a creator, a producer, a rapper, a Emmy Award winner, an Academy Award winner, a Dead Setter, A Night of a Baiter, A Hamlet, A Road to Guantanamo at Four Lives, A Sound of Metal, the Riz Test originator. He's a legend. He's a hero. I can't believe he's here, but he is. Will you please welcome to the show. It's the brilliant, it's the amazing. It's Riz Ahmed,
- [03:34]
Riz Ahmed
man. I've never been introduced in the style of a jungle MC before. Drum and bass mc.
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Brett Goldstein
Finally.
- [03:44]
Riz Ahmed
Original. It was great, man. We got to attract together.
- [03:51]
Brett Goldstein
I would love that. Now listen, Riz.
- [03:54]
Riz Ahmed
Yes, brother.
- [03:55]
Brett Goldstein
You're a bloody hero. I tell you this, I have so many questions for you. First time I saw you was in the show Dead Set, Charlie Brooker's first TV show. And I remember being like, that guy's a star. Like, I remember you really fucking shone in that show and you had so much charisma and so like, it was like, oh, that guy's a star. I remember genuinely thinking that.
- [04:16]
Riz Ahmed
You kidding me, man? That's so kind of you.
- [04:18]
Brett Goldstein
And then you went on and proved
- [04:20]
Riz Ahmed
it, you know, Dead Set is something. That's quite a deep cut, isn't it? It was kind of quite more of a UK show.
- [04:26]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, but it was so good.
- [04:28]
Riz Ahmed
I made an amazing friend out of that in the form of the director Yandel Monge. And I think it was Charlie Brooker's first thing that he wrote on his own for tv, wasn't it? Yeah, just before he started doing all of the Black Mirror stuff. Yeah, but you know someone else who was on that. I don't know if you know them. Andy Nyman, Andy Diamond.
- [04:44]
Brett Goldstein
Andy. Yeah, you too.
- [04:46]
Riz Ahmed
Andy Neiman is like just such an incredible actor, but like you, a storyteller as well, a writer. He works with Darren Brown. He's like a OG magician, isn't he? He's like a magician, like a mentalist and a magician and such a multifaceted guy. But yeah, that was. That was a lot of fun. It's a fun idea, isn't it? Zombie apocalypse happens and the only safe people left in the world are the idiots in the Big Brother house.
- [05:10]
Brett Goldstein
Was great. It was really good.
- [05:12]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah.
- [05:13]
Brett Goldstein
You also in, I think One of the greatest films of all time. Four Lions. I think maybe in my top 50. Top 20.
- [05:21]
Riz Ahmed
Really amazing. Yeah, well, 50, I wasn't that. I wasn't that guessed when you said 50, but 20 I'll take.
- [05:27]
Brett Goldstein
To be fair, I've seen a billion films, so you're.
- [05:32]
Riz Ahmed
You know what for you is, I've seen 50 films. I haven't seen 50 films. I'm a fraud, bro. Like, I listen to music more than I watch films all day. I'm married to a novelist. I barely read.
- [05:45]
Brett Goldstein
Do you read her books?
- [05:46]
Riz Ahmed
When I have to, yeah. You know, here's the thing. Four Lions, it's such an interesting experience that. Because it's one of those things where honestly, one of the reasons I said yes to it was because I thought no one would see it because it's quite a risky premise.
- [06:04]
Brett Goldstein
It sounded incredibly risky.
- [06:06]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah. Yeah. I love the director Chris Morris, and the writer Jesse Armstrong obviously went into the industry succession and peep show. And so it's just a fun gang of people. I've got to know them over a few years and like this, you know, I know it's coming from a good place. Bless him. No one will see it. I'll just muck it. And it's like one of those things where just like extremely slowly over the last 16 years, it's just kept building. Like, more and more people watch it and recommend it. It's like the slowest burn in the world. And it's strange because now I remember I met someone the other day who stopped me in the street and said, listen, I've watched Four Lions every year on my birthday. I've done that for 10 years. I was like, what? So it's so crazy. You just never know how things will work out and who will respond to what. But it was such so much fun making it.
- [06:53]
Brett Goldstein
It's such a fucking brilliant film. I think it's, like, really profound. And I think he does, like, on paper, it sounded so dangerous and crazy, that film. And then you see it and you go, oh, he entirely made a film with love. Like, it's entirely a film about. About empathy. I think it's brilliant. It's such a good film. I really love that.
- [07:12]
Riz Ahmed
That's a beautiful way of putting it, man. I have never heard anyone phrase it like that. But yes, it's. It's about empathy and love. Even though it's about empathy for. And love between a group of really incompetent Would be suicide bombers. Yeah. And that shows empathy, has empathy, doesn't discriminate does it? It's like, you know, it's, it's. You need to extend it in all directions or none. Yeah, so, yeah, it was, yeah, fucking great.
- [07:38]
Brett Goldstein
Now you're now making your own stuff or you always have. And now you're. You've got two films coming out that you made. Bait and Hamlet. Are both. You both self produced?
- [07:48]
Riz Ahmed
Yes. So Bait is a TV series on prime video and Hamlet is a feature film that will be out in cinemas. It's already been out in the UK cinemas, but will be out in the US cinemas in like the start of April. And, and yeah, I was really lucky to have worked with an amazing team. But yes, I produced both of them and with Bait, I co show around and created it as well. And so, you know, they're both labors of love. Like one took about, you know, 15 years from start to finish and the other one took about seven.
- [08:17]
Brett Goldstein
Wow. Fuck. What's the thing that makes you want to do a thing? Because they're all very different, these things. Like what's the, the spark that makes you go, all right, I'll pursue that for 15 years or whatever.
- [08:30]
Riz Ahmed
It's interesting, you know, it's. It's something that maybe breaks a mold or is trying to like stretch or maybe even break a box of some kind. I like the idea of kind of category killers. Do you know, I mean, of like things that just defy genre, like projects think, you know, characters or stories that are just like, oh, okay, that's kind of maybe left our neat labels in slight disarray actually, because what do you do with that? And that's what I feel like Four Lions was, you know, and I feel like that's what I was lucky to be involved in. Someone like Nightcrawler was that as well. And those are things I just love, you know, if I just love things that defy easy categorization. And there's something kind of, I know, mischievous and subversive and creatively quite difficult to pull off about those things. And you don't always pull it off, but it's. It's a really fun kind of creative puzzle, you know, to go on that journey as well, because you kind of both have to pay homage to a genre but then also like break it as well. So I, I think if. Gun to my head, I would say it's probably stuff like that.
- [09:37]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, that's a great answer. Category killers, I'll take it. It's a great answer. With Bait, it's a very funny idea. I've seen a Clip of it. It looks great. My guess is, if I may, is you working out some things you think about the industry in a show.
- [09:56]
Riz Ahmed
It's therapy. Brett?
- [09:57]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah.
- [09:58]
Riz Ahmed
Someone said, I need a therapy. I said, let me make a show. It sounds more fun. You know, it's really funny you say that, because actually the show is not really about the industry much at all. It's. That's the kind of framing device, is there's this outwork actor who gets through to audition to be the next James Bond.
- [10:15]
Brett Goldstein
Right.
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Riz Ahmed
And when people find out he might be the next Bond, they have very strong opinions, you know, as people do often, about casting these iconic roles. And people have such strong opinions. And he ends up chasing his tail and being chased and chasing the approval or criticism of others and himself so much that it's almost like his life starts to resemble the spy thriller that he's auditioning for. And that is the kind of idea. And really, it's about this feeling, I think, that we. We can all relate to, whether we're actors or not, which is that life kind of feels like one big audition sometimes. It feels like we're constantly having to prove ourselves, prove our worth, project a performance of ourselves that will be accepted rather than presenting the panicked, messy, you know, vulnerable reality of who we are. And I think that's true of how we live on social media. And that's. Yeah, that's true in how we go about our day wearing the mask, isn't it? And so that's. It's kind of more working that out, you know, like, when you feel like you're not enough, how you kind of do a bit too much.
- [11:16]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah. How are you with critics comments, any of that? Do you engage with any of it? Does it affect you? Do you shut it out? How do you deal with all of that?
- [11:27]
Riz Ahmed
You know, it's interesting, I would like to say I think I've gotten a bit better at it over the years. Just haven't been exposed to it a lot. But I think, remember early on, starting out, you know, reading a music review or getting, I don't know, like, you know, bad review for film or performance, whatever, it would really, really, really upset me. And, you know, I kind of, like, started my career just as we were all working out how to deal with this thing called social media. And I thought it was a perfectly healthy thing to, like, search your name in social media and see what comes up. That very quickly realized a terrible idea. But I actually remember, like, a big watershed moment for me in real life was when I Was supporting Goods and Clan in concert as a rapper, and I got booed almost off stage by 5,000 people.
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Brett Goldstein
Fuck. Where was this?
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Riz Ahmed
This is at Kentish Town Forum, okay?
- [12:16]
Brett Goldstein
Fucking hell. Okay.
- [12:17]
Riz Ahmed
At the Kenishtown Forum in North London. So. So here's what happened. Wu Tang Clan were very late. They're my heroes. First raps I ever memorized were Wu Tang, right? The first things that. The first times I would steal my brother's hip hop cassettes and, like, listen to them and memorize the lyrics, it was all Wu Tang Clan. I get a chance to support them, very excited, but they're very late. And the promoter holds me back as a supporting act and goes, no, don't you go out at 8 and then leave a gap for two hours. This is pretend. Like it's something going on technical, and you just don't go on as well. So it came to about 10, 15. They're expecting to have had an hour and 15 minutes of method Man Rizza Jizza Raycon. And then he goes, right, you should go out now. So obviously it's like, I'm not Method Man. And that was very clear to them from as soon as I stepped out on stage. So it's just a sea of booze. And then I'm like, oh, no, what do I do? So I pulled the track and I just went, I've got. I kind of felt my entire body just, like, tingling in, like, hot sweat. It was just such an intense experience. I was like. Could barely breathe. And I went, you know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to do an acapella rap. Wu Tang crowd. They will like lyricism. So I did an acapella rap without the music. And slowly, 5,000 boos turned to four and a half, thousand turned to maybe three and a half turned to two. And then by the end of that whack a pella, they all gave me a round of applause and cheered just to kind of say, well done for carrying on. And I was like, thank you very much for having me. I'm out of here. Did one rapper left? Basically, yeah. But what was interesting about it is I do think I learned something. We ended up actually portraying that scene in episode one of Bait. There's so much in it that's literally from my life. We went back to Kentish Town Forum. We repurtrayed that on that stage. Not exactly that, but a version of something like that. And it was a lesson that, you know what? Just keep going. You just keep going for long enough. Some People thought you were crap, would think you're good. Other people think you're good would start thinking you're crap and then just kind of keeps. Pendulum just keeps swinging, but just keep heading in the direction you are. And I think it's something that kind of came with time in it. But I remember that kind of going, oh, like, nothing means anything. Because if these guys were booing me that hard, I thought nothing will change their minds. But I mean, you know, it's just. It's just a gut reaction of someone in a moment. It doesn't mean anything. You know, ultimately, fucking hell.
- [14:31]
Brett Goldstein
That's stressful.
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Riz Ahmed
It was quite stressful.
- [14:33]
Brett Goldstein
That's given me sweat. Just forget about it. Riz, I've forgotten to tell you something and I should have told you at the beginning and I'll just say it. You've died. You're dead. You're dead. No, dead. You're dead.
- [14:52]
Riz Ahmed
What?
- [14:52]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, sorry. How did it happen? You tell me. How did you die? It's up to you.
- [14:58]
Riz Ahmed
I was texting while I was crossing the road, wasn't I?
- [15:01]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah. Oh, no.
- [15:04]
Riz Ahmed
It was really, really avoidable.
- [15:06]
Brett Goldstein
Who are you texting? Was it an important text?
- [15:11]
Riz Ahmed
I would really like to say I was texting my wife. No, it wasn't an important text. I think I was texting someone to try and send me a schedule for what time this podcast is meant to be, because it was meant to be at 5:55. Then I was told it was 5:30. And I think I just kind of rushed a little bit as I crossed the roads. I didn't let you down, Brett, actually, mate. So.
- [15:33]
Brett Goldstein
No, no, I mean, so in a way it's my fault, but it's convenient because in this podcast, you're dead. So it kind of worked out.
- [15:41]
Riz Ahmed
This is where to plan.
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Brett Goldstein
Yeah. Yeah. Do you worry about death? Resamine?
- [15:45]
Riz Ahmed
Do I worry about it? I don't. I think it's something that usually takes care of itself, doesn't. It doesn't need a lot of help from me, does it?
- [15:52]
Brett Goldstein
I've never heard that. Well, you've category killed death. Go on.
- [15:58]
Riz Ahmed
You know. You know, something's quite interesting. It's like, I don't know if you have this, like, how you were raised, but like, death is quite a present thing in like, some like, cultural traditions. And it was. And is. Doesn't mean like, oh, like, you know, I'm not afraid of anything. But this idea of like, listen, you're gonna die one day, and it's all about like, the deeds you do and you know, what you do while you're here, like, that's just such a. It's not like a thing that's not spoken about. It's like, spoken about almost too much. Do you know what I mean? So if anything, it's like, yeah, yeah, I know we're gonna die. Yeah, I know that they told us that bit very early on, so I don't know why, but I feel like awareness of death is actually one of the things that really kind of drives me and helps me in a weird way. I don't know if that's a weird thing to say.
- [16:42]
Brett Goldstein
No, not so. Because you feel the clock is ticking and you want to make it count.
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Riz Ahmed
I think so. Yeah, I think so. And also just feel. Yeah, I know. You know, you lose people as well along the way, and you just feel so lucky that you're here also. I don't know. No, I don't worry about death that much right now.
- [16:59]
Brett Goldstein
That's good. What do you think happens after you die? Do you think there's an afterlife?
- [17:03]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah, I think that the kind of religious, you know, kind of versions of what happened in an afterlife and a heaven and that kind of stuff, I think that they're kind of poetic metaphors. I don't take them literally myself. I kind of feel like the way that we live on is through our actions, which reverberate kind of on in eternity. That is our afterlife. You know, if we are our actions, if we are the difference we make, if we are the things we move and touch and shift, you know, the dominoes that we set off, that they. They do reverberate off into eternity in ways that we can even begin to comprehend. And I feel that that is our eternal life. That is our afterlife. And, you know, that happens in more direct ways, like if you plant a tree or if you have a kid. But it also happens in. In really important and also noticeable ways, like an act of kindness or an. Or an argument you have with someone, you know. So I feel like we're kind of living our afterlife or like sowing kind of creating afterlife every moment in a way. That's my take on it.
- [18:03]
Brett Goldstein
Do you think the stuff you make goes with that in terms of what you leave behind and.
- [18:09]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah, I guess I don't feel like, oh, man, like the films you do will live forever. Like, I don't know if that's true, really. You know, I think this technology has been around for 100 years. I think that in 200 years it might not be around. Like, I don't think that's two weeks. Yeah, yeah, right. Exactly. The way things are going, I think more that it's. They live forever in the way that they affect people. They might stretch their. Open their minds or hearts or collective consciousness in some incremental way that that's kind of a part of it. Having said that, I do think it is also possible, since I know people who've done DMT and Ayahuasca and this kind of stuff.
- [18:44]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah.
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Riz Ahmed
That is literally just like some crazy acid trip of, like, we're floating around, like, a multicolored dimension with, like, mechanical elves, you know, in black holes, like, in some weird land of milk and honey. That is also. I'm not ruling it out.
- [18:58]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, well, I got news for you. There's a heaven. And you're going. You're. You're very welcome. They're very happy to see you. It's filled with your favorite things. What's your favorite thing?
- [19:08]
Riz Ahmed
My favorite thing? Oh, my God. Like, an object or, like, food or a meal.
- [19:13]
Brett Goldstein
Like, however you choose to interpret it.
- [19:15]
Riz Ahmed
You know what I'm going to say? My favorite thing is, like, this hoodie that I lost once. And. And it's that hoodie.
- [19:21]
Brett Goldstein
Okay.
- [19:22]
Riz Ahmed
Heaven is filled with this really soft fleece hoodie. Yeah.
- [19:25]
Brett Goldstein
One giant hoodie. Or a replica. Clones of that hoodie all over the place.
- [19:29]
Riz Ahmed
No, no, just one. And it's all mine. I'm not sharing in heaven.
- [19:32]
Brett Goldstein
God bless you.
- [19:33]
Riz Ahmed
I've learned nothing.
- [19:36]
Brett Goldstein
Okay. You go to heaven. Everyone's very excited to see you. They're a bit annoyed. Like, do we not get a hoodie? And you're like, no, I was very clear about that. It's just a hoodie for me. And everyone else is quite. They're like, it's cold in heaven. And you're like, yeah, I'm fine. Like, jesus. Can't believe this guy. Anyway, they want to talk to you about your life, but they want to talk to you about your life through film. And the first question they ask is, what is the first film you remember seeing? Riz Ahmed.
- [20:04]
Riz Ahmed
This is something I wish. I'd rather forget having seen it. It was A Nightmare on Elm Street.
- [20:10]
Brett Goldstein
That was the first film you saw?
- [20:11]
Riz Ahmed
I think I was like, six.
- [20:13]
Brett Goldstein
What?
- [20:15]
Riz Ahmed
Five and a half, I think. Yeah. So, right. I'm okay. I think I've turned out okay. I can't watch horrors, though. I literally cannot watch horror movies. So, yeah, I was like. I think it was that babysit. Being babysat by my uncles in an afternoon. And they just stick on the nightmare of it on Elm Street. And that was. I think that was one of the first ones I saw. Yeah. I mean, that may not actually. I mean, who knows? I'll go back and someone, you know, family member listens to this and go, no, you saw Bambi, you saw E.T. you saw something. I may have. That's not the first memory. The first memory of the film that is seared. And exactly is that.
- [20:56]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah. Well, the next question is, what film scared you the most? But is it that? And if you're not watching horror films, you really don't watch them at all.
- [21:05]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah. Can I tell you something else that scared me, though, which is slightly random in Dumbo, you know, when Dumbo gets drunk?
- [21:09]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah. It's really scary.
- [21:11]
Riz Ahmed
That is a very scary sequence, isn't it? Yeah, very scary sequence. And like, you know, he's kind of seeing. It's like all these, like, phantom kind of ghosty kind of hallucinations that are very trippy and like a big, like, dark, black abyss of his own mind. And it's very. I remember being quite scared by that sequence. I didn't like watching that sequence.
- [21:33]
Brett Goldstein
Have you ever done a horror film? You've never been in one of you?
- [21:35]
Riz Ahmed
I've never. The closest is Dead Set.
- [21:37]
Brett Goldstein
Dead Set Nightcrawler is.
- [21:39]
Riz Ahmed
I would like to. Have you. Have you done horrors?
- [21:41]
Brett Goldstein
No.
- [21:42]
Riz Ahmed
Would you like to?
- [21:43]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, I'd love to.
- [21:44]
Riz Ahmed
Let's make it happen.
- [21:45]
Brett Goldstein
Should we make a guy story?
- [21:47]
Riz Ahmed
I would love that. Get Andy Neumann to write it.
- [21:49]
Brett Goldstein
Yes. Now you're talking. What is the film that made you cry the most? Are you a crier?
- [21:56]
Riz Ahmed
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think E.T. made me cry a lot. And at the time I thought it was just because, you know, Spielberg is an amazing director. But my friend and co star of our show Bait, reframed it for me and said, the reason why you found ET So moving is because first time you saw a brown man on screen. And ET Is a little. A little brown man with basically an Indian accent. Right. And he was stranded and basically he wanted to go home. He wanted to go home and he wanted to just phone home. But in those days, if you remember, we didn't want phone calls. Long distance calls are expensive and he's literally got immigration on his case trying to turf him out of the house. And so, in a way, it was striking some kind of ancestral memory or chord in me. And I thank Gus for reframing that. I think that's why we. It was very.
- [22:52]
Brett Goldstein
That's funny. That's fucking funny.
- [22:54]
Riz Ahmed
I think that's what happened.
- [22:55]
Brett Goldstein
He's a funny boy.
- [22:56]
Riz Ahmed
He is.
- [22:57]
Brett Goldstein
I mean, look, I've talked about this on here before, but I will tell you. My dad took me and my sister to CET when I was, like, three.
- [23:06]
Riz Ahmed
I think, wow, that's young.
- [23:08]
Brett Goldstein
And he was like, you're gonna love this. And I remember crying so much and turning to him and saying, why have you brought us to this?
- [23:19]
Riz Ahmed
It was, what have you.
- [23:24]
Brett Goldstein
Wow. Why would you do this?
- [23:26]
Riz Ahmed
What did he say? Did he just stand by it? Did he stand by?
- [23:29]
Brett Goldstein
I think he just think he just nodded, like, yeah, man. Sad to toughen you up. Life is really.
- [23:37]
Riz Ahmed
Put some hairs on your chest. Yeah. Oh, man.
- [23:42]
Brett Goldstein
What about. What is a film that you love? It's not critically acclaimed. Most people don't like it. But you love it unconditionally.
- [23:49]
Riz Ahmed
I don't know if I would say that most people don't like it, but a film that I love unconditionally is. I mean, but people love this film, though, so I don't know if this counts. Just say anyway.
- [24:02]
Brett Goldstein
That might be an answer you want down the line.
- [24:04]
Riz Ahmed
Are there any films that most people don't like, but I love unconditionally?
- [24:08]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah.
- [24:09]
Riz Ahmed
You know what has this. Do you remember there was this film back in the day about a car, like a Beetle? A Volkswagen Beetle.
- [24:17]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, The Love Bug.
- [24:18]
Riz Ahmed
Herbie goes bananas.
- [24:19]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah. Herbie goes. And. Yeah.
- [24:21]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah. That was a banger.
- [24:23]
Brett Goldstein
That is a great.
- [24:27]
Riz Ahmed
The car is a banger. And so is the. Yeah, is the film. Yeah. That was a weird one. That was. I think we got into a rut in my extended family at my great uncle's house, where, like, for some, it was this weird pocket of time where that was the only VHS he had that was on heavy rotation for a while. And as a kid, you know, you love that. That mischievous car just up to no good. No driverless car again. It was basically telling the future.
- [24:50]
Brett Goldstein
It's Bonnet.
- [24:51]
Riz Ahmed
It was Bonnie. It was like, hitting the baddies.
- [24:53]
Brett Goldstein
It's like a dog. Herbie. Herbie was like a dog. And the mouth was like.
- [24:58]
Riz Ahmed
It was Lassie with a car.
- [24:59]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he would, like. People would fall into.
- [25:07]
Riz Ahmed
See, I'm getting joy just by just hearing you.
- [25:10]
Brett Goldstein
Just.
- [25:10]
Riz Ahmed
I see you act it out with your arm. I'm like, oh, Herbie, Herbie, Herbie. And, you know, I'll put another one in there. I'll put another one in case there's too many. But a film that I love unconditionally, even though most People don't. But I think again, it's quite beloved film is Home Alone.
- [25:24]
Brett Goldstein
Oh, yeah.
- [25:25]
Riz Ahmed
Home Alone Home. It's loan, I think inspired a generation of us to booby trap their houses and injure their parents.
- [25:32]
Brett Goldstein
Well, on the other end of the scale, a film that you used to love, but you've watched it recently and you've thought, I don't like this anymore because you've changed.
- [25:41]
Riz Ahmed
I think Indiana Jones at the Temple of Doom.
- [25:44]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah. Okay,
- [25:48]
Riz Ahmed
should I. Should I expand on that or do you get it? You see where I'm thinking of this?
- [25:52]
Brett Goldstein
I think I get it. It could be described as problematic.
- [25:59]
Riz Ahmed
You mean the Indians eating monkey brains and pregnant spiders?
- [26:02]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, that kind of thing. That kind of thing, yeah.
- [26:06]
Riz Ahmed
Can I tell you a sad thing? We had that on row adaptation for a long time in my extended family. Because it was like again, it was like, wow. We feel seen overlook what they're eating and the whole them being all being evil and stuff. But also it had a very famous Bollywood actor in it who played the villain, Amrish Puri. Amrish Puri was someone that we recognized from a fantastic Bollywood film, a Bollywood hit at the time called Mr. India. He was the super villain of Mr. India. Mr. India was kind of like a Bollywood James Bond knockoff, but this James Bond knockoff, he. He could. He could. He also had an invisibility power. And Amrish Puri from Indiana Jones, Temple of Doom was a super villain. His name was Mogambo and he had one of the most famous, still quotable lines of any Bollywood villain. And it was Mogambo Khushua, which means Magambo is pleased. And he generally did that after someone got. He killed someone or someone killed themselves in his honor or something like that. Jumped into a vat of acid he had under his disco like lair that he lived in. I mean, I should really be talking about Mr. India, shouldn't I? This is clearly my favorite film.
- [27:13]
Brett Goldstein
Make me want to watch that. What is the film that means the most to you? Not necessarily the film is good or bad, but the experience you had seeing the film will always make it important to you. Could be a first date, could be the day someone died. You saw this, you know, whatever the thing that. Do you associate with that film?
- [27:35]
Riz Ahmed
That's a beautiful question. Yeah, I think for me it would be Thin Red Line. Terence Malik.
- [27:39]
Brett Goldstein
I love that film. Yeah, go on.
- [27:42]
Riz Ahmed
It's such a beautiful film.
- [27:43]
Brett Goldstein
It's beautiful. That film.
- [27:45]
Riz Ahmed
I was really, really sick. I was about 18 years old and I had kind of like I think I just found a way of sabotaging myself into kind of sickness through like, chain smoking when I was kind of like feeling like I was going through something tough, you know, which we will do at that age. And so I smoked myself into, like, from a chest infection, into a bronchitis, and then into a kind of borderline. Was it pneumonia? Yeah, yeah, right. And so I was 18 and at home in bed, like, just with this crazy fever, just like shivering and sweating, just tripping, basically. And I had this dvd, A friend lent it to me. You know, he'd bring in like burnt and copied DVDs and stuff and like, you could borrow them. He just enjoyed, like, sharing films with people. And a lot of them were kung fu films as well. Actually, I watched a lot of them, which I love. We can get into that later. But I watched in Red lion and just something about it is so transcendent, euphoric and spiritual. And it's about finding the beauty in these moments of pain and suffering and how beauty is always there, you know, and nature is in something mystical, spiritual or divine is always there, watching and with us and accompanying us even in our most lonely moments. And I just remember just watching it through like, like, Like a film of like tears, you know, across my eyes, just like with this fevered grin on my face, just going, this is like cinema, you know? Yeah, it was very life changing experience for me.
- [29:13]
Brett Goldstein
I love that film. I don't think it's ever come up on this podcast. So. Thank you, thank you, thank you. What is the film you most relate to?
- [29:24]
Riz Ahmed
The film I most relate to. That's interesting. You expand on that. What do you mean in terms of that? Like, oh, that's my life kind of thing.
- [29:31]
Brett Goldstein
Like, oh, I feel like when I was a child, I was like, Annie, let's say. Or you know, wow. The world this film is set in feels like my world or the way this character is, is how I feel or.
- [29:46]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah, it's a really interesting question, you know, because it's making me realize that I didn't see a lot of portrayals of my world or my kind of family or community or experience on screen very much at all. Yeah, I would say that in a strange way, something that I found extremely relatable even though I did not grow up in the Sicilian Mafia, contrary to news reports. It was good fillers, right?
- [30:09]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, go on.
- [30:10]
Riz Ahmed
Good fillers. Good fillers. The. The sense of like the culture of the old country, honor being the most important thing. Extended family and like gigantic family and extended Family and community gatherings, kind of men trying to hold on to their dignity and eking out a living in the corners of, like, legality. You know, this kind of stuff felt like, oh, I was like, oh, that. That's my. Those are my uncles. Okay, that's. That's my cut. You know what I mean? And of course, it was not like that. You know what I mean? Like I said, I'm not from an organized crime family, but it's. But something about it just felt so relatable. And I've always felt that about the Italian American experience was an amazing kind of template for me for trying to actually about the British Asian experience. And it's actually a very similar kind of thing. You know, it's like, I think they actually make up similar proportions of the population in a weird way. There's all kinds of similarities to it. And. And so that was something, I think, like that. That I was like, oh, that's like. I can't quite put my finger on what it is. But yeah, I know that. I know something about that. You know.
- [31:16]
Brett Goldstein
That's a fascinating answer. Listen, I know you didn't get the homework, so forgive me for not preparing you for these questions, but the next question is.
- [31:25]
Riz Ahmed
No, no, it's great.
- [31:26]
Brett Goldstein
What's the sec? What is the sexiest film you've ever seen?
- [31:30]
Riz Ahmed
That's a great question.
- [31:32]
Brett Goldstein
Thanks, man.
- [31:33]
Riz Ahmed
You know, I'm giving the answer that I don't know if it's like, I don't think I stand by it now actually at all. But at the time, I'm just going to say from at the time, something that I thought was so sexy because it is something about that. There's something quite adolescent fantasy about it. I mean, the last lines of the film are the voiceover of Patricia Arquette talking about Christian Slater saying, I look at you and I think, you're so cool. You're so cool. Right. So there's like. It's like teenage boy fantasy energy, right? This film. There's true romance.
- [32:09]
Brett Goldstein
Right.
- [32:10]
Riz Ahmed
You know, true romance was like my first experience of like, wow. Like this Bonnie and Clyde thing. And they've may. And you know, against all odds, against also Gary Oldman as Drexel the pimp. Yeah, the blonde dreadlocked pimp. Drexel.
- [32:24]
Brett Goldstein
Yes.
- [32:25]
Riz Ahmed
He can do anything. I mean. Oh, my God. But I remember true romance just kind of forming some kind of template. Forming some kind of template of like, you know, just Bonnie and Bonnie and Clyde thing in my mind.
- [32:38]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah.
- [32:39]
Riz Ahmed
And just being so.
- [32:42]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah.
- [32:42]
Riz Ahmed
Just on that kind of teenage fantasy, you know.
- [32:45]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah. I don't know. That's a good one. There is a subcategory to this question.
- [32:49]
Riz Ahmed
Okay.
- [32:49]
Brett Goldstein
Troubling bonus, worrying why don'ts a film you found arousing that you weren't sure you were meant to.
- [32:55]
Riz Ahmed
Huh. Something I found arousing. I'm not sure I meant to. I mean that's probably. I just got straight to newsreaders, I think there to be honest, rather than, rather than films. Let's face it.
- [33:09]
Brett Goldstein
That's a great answer.
- [33:10]
Riz Ahmed
Some really fit news readers and no and also parents are watching news from all different kinds of countries. You know, you've got watching Pakistani news, watching Indian news. You're going watching British news. You've seen that. Amazing, beautiful. Yeah, man, bro. Like, yeah, they know what they're doing.
- [33:32]
Brett Goldstein
You're not right.
- [33:33]
Riz Ahmed
They can't survive on the middle aged viewership. They've got entice those like prepubescent, you know, boys as well.
- [33:39]
Brett Goldstein
They've also got to give you hope. While we're hearing all the depressing news. You need a reason to stay alive.
- [33:46]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah. I'd say the news.
- [33:48]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah. What is objectively the greatest film of all time? Not your favorite, but if Aliens came and said what is the pinnacle of cinema? Show us one film. What would it be?
- [34:04]
Riz Ahmed
I have to confess something, Brett. I feel like a massive imposter. I'm so honored to be on this podcast because I'm sure people have come on here and said, you know, bunuel and like no one said, you know, this and that and, and like no
- [34:18]
Brett Goldstein
one's ever said I, I, I.
- [34:20]
Riz Ahmed
Okay. I haven't, I feel like I haven't seen a lot of the films that are considered the all time greats. But if I was going to show Aliens, you know, what is all about what we're doing here, you know, I would obviously show them Terminator to obviously show.
- [34:37]
Brett Goldstein
It might be the greatest film. It might be the greatest film.
- [34:40]
Riz Ahmed
I was showing Terminator 2. I would show them that because if anything it would just be a kind of like it's a bit of backstory about how we've got here. Obviously by the time we meet Aliens, yeah, I will have run amok. It's going to be total chaos. And that's just basically AI backstory. The amazing thing about that film is it operates on two levels. It's a really entertaining film. It's really moving films. Really action packed film is technically really innovative. What it's doing is special effects. And then also it's Kind of a crystal ball. We're basically looking into the future and going, this is. This is what's happening, you know. Yeah, we're headed for Skynet, you know.
- [35:16]
Brett Goldstein
You know, for someone who didn't get the homework, you're answering these fantastically well. It's really impressive, all this off the dime.
- [35:23]
Riz Ahmed
Thank you so much. I should have said. I should have said. Probably should have said Godfather to.
- [35:28]
Brett Goldstein
Everyone says it. Everyone, really. I'm glad you said Terminator. What is the film you could or have watched the most over and over again?
- [35:37]
Riz Ahmed
You know what? I think it might be a Bollywood film. Yeah, I think it might be. Well, it actually might be Mr. India, but as a child. But because we've already spoken about it, I'm just put in a close second. Is probably Dilwale Dholani Alijangi, which is the Lovers Will Take the Bride Home. Anyway, DDLJ is called. It's such a. It's such an iconic classic film. There's actually. I think there's a cinema somewhere in India, in Bombay itself, that has just been playing it constantly for the past 25 years or something on, you know,
- [36:07]
Brett Goldstein
so would it just be on all the time on your.
- [36:10]
Riz Ahmed
I think so. I think it's like what Coppola attended for Apocalypse now actually was achieved in. By Diwalijangi. And it was just. It's really just an incredible. Masterfully made. Yeah. Romantic musical comedy in that tradition at the. You know, at the peak of what. You know, Shahrukh Khan kind of like just becoming who he is, you know, it's like the most revered, well known, recognized film star in the world, you know, anywhere globally. You know, that's. That's Ruhan is. And I just remember kind of. I think it was like we saw it in a cinema and then we went back and saw again in the cinema with our family members. And then someone got VHS and it was just done. It was just game over. You know, we just be on in the background, you know.
- [36:56]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah.
- [36:57]
Riz Ahmed
Because the songs are good as well. That's amazing things. Just fantastic music. There's probably that. And not even like necessarily by choice, but just through kind of like osmosis. Yeah, I'd say that. Or Mr. India.
- [37:09]
Brett Goldstein
Do you think any of that. Any of that filters through into. Into any of the stuff that you made or anything?
- [37:15]
Riz Ahmed
I think so. I think like my love of blending kind of music with filmmaking and storytelling is there. I think that's also an amazing part of films like Goodfellas, you know, the score, the Needle Drops that are used in a film, are they like a Greek chorus? They're drawing attention. It's drawing attention to itself as a source of either juxtaposition or playing something funky while something violent is happening, which is really kind of, you know, taking you into the sexy magic of the world. And. And I think like Bollywood is like teaming up for that. It's like, obviously music is like a centerpiece of films. And certainly with our show that we've just made now with Bait, we've got a very, very specific kind of soundscape to it. That's all. Actually, now that I'm realizing is drawn from late 70s and early 80s Bollywood and Lollywood, Lollywood being the Pakistani version. So it's this kind of strange, frankly, let's face it, probably a very drugged up moment in those industries. Late 70s, early 80s, where Pakistani film, cinema, music was like lots of really like sexy psychedelic funk. And in Bollywood in the early 80s, Asha Bosley, who's famously sung about in Brim Full of Asher in a 45 by corner shop, Ayesha Bosley kind of as this kind of disco queen. Her and Papulhiri kind of creating this like super intense, freewheeling, wild, like Bollywood disco kind of stuff. So that's the soundscape of my show. And I really love it when scores are a character in a film itself. If I think of like Birdman, you know, in a way that functions, or uncut Gems and how the 1 or 2 point never score is like, it's. It's a kind of. It's a wink at the audience. Both of those scores are actually a wink. They're kind of a framing device. It's quite Brechtian in the sense that it's like drawing your attention to like, hey, remember you're watching a story and it's storytelling. What's going to happen next in our tale? Follow me. It's a kind of like the storyteller's flourish, the storyteller's hand, which kind of just. I don't know. I really enjoy that.
- [39:09]
Brett Goldstein
Great, great answer. Great answer. What is the worst film you've ever seen?
- [39:17]
Riz Ahmed
American Sniper.
- [39:18]
Brett Goldstein
I haven't seen it. Absolutely fair. Because of its politics or because just the film?
- [39:23]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah, I just think it's not even about politics. It's about what is the role of art? What is the role of stories? I think the role of art, the role of stories and storytelling and by extension film, is to like, try and invest every character, every moment, every situation with the maximum messy, multi dimensionality of humanity. And I think when films start to dehumanize and we're just using very powerful potent technology as propaganda of some kind, you know, at someone's behest or you know, in service to your own like baser instincts. And I think that this, it's a very kind of fear based film that was caught up in a wave really of the, of, of certain kind of wave of cinema that took place post 911 and during the Iraq war that, that in many ways like it kind of influenced and inspired me to kind of do what I do, right. And so I, I, I, I just think it's like, you know, stories are about expanding the scope of who is considered human and what is considered human.
- [40:19]
Brett Goldstein
You know, it's like the opposite of four lions.
- [40:22]
Riz Ahmed
It is the opposite four. Yeah, you can watch him as back to back actually. Yeah, they should start showing them cinemas.
- [40:31]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, interesting.
- [40:32]
Riz Ahmed
I know that just came off the top of my head. I haven't thought this through really, but.
- [40:36]
Brett Goldstein
No, no, you're absolutely right. I think you're very right. If you don't make it with love, we're in trouble.
- [40:43]
Riz Ahmed
I think I love that thing that you said. Is that something you kind of discovered on your journey as a creator that you're like, actually when I use it with love, it feels better. Like, tell me about that idea. I love that idea.
- [40:54]
Brett Goldstein
I just, I've always, I did one like very brief writing course when I was in my 20s and I didn't take a lot from it, but the one thing I took from it which is the most important lesson and I've always tried to apply it, is you, the writer, have to love all your characters, you have to write them all with love. Even if you're writing Hitler, even if you're writing a suicide bomb, you know, you have to write everyone with love. And they don't have to do good, but you have to see because it's all fucking empathy, isn't it? And it is all like, you're absolutely right. Everything that scares me about the world, all the things going on, is this constant attempt to pretend that we're not the same, to dehumanize it, to be like, these people are different, these people are better, these people, these people are animals. It's like we're all fucking, you know, I mean, I don't want to sound preachy, but it really scares me when I go, oh, language is powerful. And when you refer to people as not human and in your absolute right, I haven't seen American Sniper, but if it is dehumanizing. Then it is the opposite of what art should be.
- [42:03]
Riz Ahmed
I love that. I love that as a rule to write with love, man.
- [42:07]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah, yeah.
- [42:08]
Riz Ahmed
I love in particular what you're saying about pretending we're not the same. Because that's another thing that I think is a superpower of story forces you to. Well, the only reason it works, actually, is because we are all the same underneath the surface of supposed difference. Right? That's how you can watch Terminator 2 and go, oh, my God, right now, I am in 1980s Arnold Schwarzenegger sent back from the future.
- [42:35]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah.
- [42:35]
Riz Ahmed
Like, you know, melting in a pot of molten lava. I'm so emotional right now. That's why you can watch something and go, okay, wow. Like, I am whatever. Claire Foy in the Crown and I'm the Queen of England. If only people would understand what it's like to be me. It's this body swap technology. And the reason it works is because you know that in Sufism, in Islam, there's this idea that there's the veil through the veil of illusion is that we're separate, but actually reality is that we're one. And story is this kind of amazing, most profound technology we've ever created as humans, which is about reminding us of our inherent oneness. You know, reason. You can relate. The reason that body swap happens is because we share the same emotions. That's that direct line for. For us when we play characters, but for audiences when they experience them. So I'm there with you, man.
- [43:22]
Brett Goldstein
It's why. It's why I sort of joke about it, but I really mean it. I think it's proof of, you know, the thing of the more specific, the more universal, like the film Ladybird. Greta Gerwick's Ladybird. I am not a teenage girl from small town America. I watched that film and I was like, oh, yeah, that's me. That's my childhood. Like, it was so specific. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm Ladybird.
- [43:48]
Riz Ahmed
That's it. That's. That's what you're saying now, man. That's like. I believe in that so deeply, you know, And. And here's the thing. You are. You are that young girl, and, yeah, you know, I am that little boy in moonlight. And we are like Anthony Hopkins and the father. We. We are. It's. It's the part of us that really matters is the same. So I'm with you.
- [44:11]
Brett Goldstein
All right. What is the film? You've just made A comedy. You're very funny. What's the film that made you laugh the most.
- [44:18]
Riz Ahmed
Spaceballs.
- [44:19]
Brett Goldstein
Great, great. It's coming back.
- [44:21]
Riz Ahmed
Spaceballs. Yeah, yeah, I know. Spaceballs or Naked Gun two and a Half.
- [44:26]
Brett Goldstein
Right, right.
- [44:27]
Riz Ahmed
I mean, these films have not aged particularly well. They weren't that politically correct at all, I tell you. Another one that was a banger, which I caught, which I thought was so subversive for a film of that time. We're first watching as well. This is like a year old, kind of like cowboy film. And I was like, what the hell is this Was Blazing Saddles.
- [44:44]
Brett Goldstein
Oh, my God, it's good.
- [44:45]
Riz Ahmed
And I was reading like a bit of Mel Brooks's autobiography, things called what About Me? Right. Hilarious. He's writing about Blazing Saddles and he talks about, like, the process of making that, how everyone was like, we got changes. You got to do this, you change that, you do this. And like. And it's funny. His. The whole thing when they were writing, it was like, it has to make us laugh. It has to be. And you can find the specificity and the quirkiness of that humor is crazy. But, yeah, I know. Spaceballs. Blazes. Saddles. I think Spaceballs was just like, as a kid, it was quite rude as well in lots of.
- [45:19]
Brett Goldstein
Yeah.
- [45:20]
Riz Ahmed
Exciting ways. So we love that.
- [45:22]
Brett Goldstein
Riz Ahmed, you have been an absolute joy. What a treat. However, when you were checking the schedule for this podcast and you were texting and you crossed the street looking at your phone distracted. What time is it? And a ups. Sorry to brand this, but a UPS truck ran you over, straight over. Kadung. Kadung and UPS ain't gonna be late. They just kept going. And everyone gathers around. Oh, my God. And I'm walking past with a coffin. You know what I'm like. And I'm like, who's that? Is that Riz Ahmed? I'm such a huge fan. And they go, yeah, he's just been hit by a UPS truck. And I'm like, oh, no, what a shame. I go, give me a hand. And we all try and get you into the coffin, but you, like, splattered into the tarmacs. We're having to peel off bits of you getting bits of fucking road in there. Anyway, we stuff you in the coffin. There's more of you than I was expecting. There's only enough room in this coffin for me to slip one DVD into the side for you to take across to the other side. And on the other side, it's movie night every night. What film are you taking to show the very cold people in Heaven While you wear your lost hoodie in heaven when it is your movie night. Riz Ahmed, go.
- [46:38]
Riz Ahmed
I think I take the film that I remember enjoying watching the most with both my uncles and my cousins, maybe in an attempt to try and reverse how I was forced to watch Nightmare on Elm street with no choice. This is when I was with the same group of people and I had some say in my heart, and that would be probably Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon.
- [47:02]
Brett Goldstein
Riz, let's be clear. You did not get the homework. You absolutely smashed this. You did. Off the dome. Fantastic.
- [47:13]
Riz Ahmed
Oh, thank you so much, Brett.
- [47:16]
Brett Goldstein
Now, before you go, please tell us, tell us what to look out for and watch and where and how all your upcoming things, please. Oh, man.
- [47:24]
Riz Ahmed
Yeah. So Bait is my first TV show. I've kind of created and very proud of it. It's very personal and it's. I'm pleased to say it's a lot of fun. It's on Prime Video March 25.
- [47:36]
Brett Goldstein
Is it coming out weekly or all Together?
- [47:39]
Riz Ahmed
No, it's dropping all together on the 25th of March on Prime Video. And that's Bait. And then Hamlet is out in US theaters on April 10th.
- [47:49]
Brett Goldstein
Fantastic, Riz. What a joy this has been. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it.
- [47:55]
Riz Ahmed
Thank you so much, Brett. You too, man.
- [47:58]
Brett Goldstein
Have a lovely death. And I will stop the recording and say thank you. So that was episode 389. Head over to the patreon@patreon.com BrettGoldstein for the extra chat secrets and video with Riz Ahmed. Go to Apple podcast, give us a five star rating and write about the film that means the most to you and why. It's a lovely thing to read. It helps with numbers. My neighbor Maureen loves it. Thank you very much. You can still see all of you and shrinking on Apple tv. Thank you all for listening. I do hope you're well. Thank you to Riz for giving me his time. Thanks to Scrubby's Pip and the Distraction Pieces Network. Thanks to Buddy Piece for producing it. Thanks to Adam Richardson for the graphics and Lisa Lydon for the photographer. Come and join me next week for another incredible episode. But that's it for now. Thank you for listening. Hope you're all well. In the meantime, have a lovely week and please be excellent to each other. Sam,
- [49:23]
Riz Ahmed
Quick break. This surprised me. The most useful advice I get now doesn't come from experts. It comes from regular people on TikTok. What works, what doesn't. No filters. Download TikTok and see for yourself.