Lifestyle Inflation, Divorce & Building Wealth Again | Pumla Nabachwa| Uganda Edition

Summary

Financially Incorrect Podcast: Uganda Edition

Episode: Lifestyle Inflation, Divorce & Building Wealth Again
Guest: Pumla Nabachwa
Host: Barack Bukusi
Date: March 18, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this candid and deeply personal episode, Barack Bukusi sits down with Pumla Nabachwa, an economist at Bank of Uganda and one of the nation's foremost financial literacy educators. The conversation traverses Pumla's privileged upbringing, her experiences with lifestyle inflation, the financial and emotional complexities of marriage, divorce, and single motherhood, and how she rebuilt her life and wealth from scratch. Pumla reveals practical lessons learned about savings, resilience, co-parenting, and why financial literacy is integral to personal happiness and peace of mind—all delivered with vivid storytelling and unfiltered wisdom.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Upbringing and Money Mindset

• Privileged but Perceived as Poor:
  • Pumla discusses only realizing in her thirties that she grew up privileged, as her father prioritized quality education above all else, even at the expense of other comforts and luxuries (11:26–23:07).
  • “I always thought we were poor... My dad believed in quality education. He strategically placed us in schools where... 20 years down the road, Pumla can pick up a phone and knock at anybody’s door and be let in easier.” (11:34)
• Comparing with Wealthier Peers:
  • The contrast between her own family’s tight budget and her schoolmates’ affluence shaped her early notions on wealth and social capital.
  • “We didn’t have anything. All we were doing was going to rich people schools because that’s what my dad believed.” (13:52)

2. Early Money Experiences

• First Jobs and Earning Money:
  • Started working during school vacations at places like NSSF and breweries, but largely spent her income instead of saving (24:48–28:21).
  • “Bought clothes. That’s all I did with the money... all we are taught or exposed to is if you want to spend, you make.” (25:57)

3. Lifestyle Inflation and Financial Vulnerability

• Unexpected Income and Spending:
  • Even as a financial educator, Pumla admits to succumbing to lifestyle inflation after earning more than expected in 2025, spending more extravagantly than planned (07:55–09:54).
  • “I spent more excessively than I should have on things that really did not add me that much value... Maybe did the one thing I teach against: lifestyle inflation.” (07:58)
• Money Is Emotional:
  • Discusses the emotional side of money, emphasizing that even experts are not immune.
  • “Money is emotional, instead of logical... There should be some thought process into the why and the what.” (08:12)

4. Marriage, Divorce, and Rebuilding

• Staying for Lack of Savings:
  • Pumla reveals that lack of personal savings kept her in an unhappy marriage longer than she wanted (35:20–43:01).
  • “I stayed in that home for eight months longer than I should have because I had no savings. The power of savings, I understood what it meant at that time.” (41:01)
• Financial Lessons from Separation:
  • The separation forced her to build an emergency fund and become intentional with money:
    • “That’s when the real wake up call of ‘Pumla, you need to set money aside for emergencies’.” (42:45)
• Navigating Divorce and Co-Parenting:
  • She recounts handling divorce with humility, prioritizing her child's wellbeing, and taking a cooperative approach to dividing assets and childcare costs (49:24–60:00).
  • “My ego is not in this discussion. Take your things, but remember, we have a child together.” (55:56)
  • “Don’t pay for rent. I inflated some bills... but that was the truth. Now as the boy grew... we started 50-50.” (56:27, 58:08)
• Pride in Emotional Independence:
  • “If you leave a marriage because you’re unhappy, now you’re still unhappy in divorce? That doesn’t make sense to me.” (51:30)

5. Building Wealth Again—Key Turning Points

a. Emergency Funds and Saving (71:25–76:59)

• Post-divorce anxiety prompted her to save up to four years’ worth of emergency funds.
• “I never, ever want to be in a place... where I can’t move to another place because I don’t have money.” (72:56)

b. Home Ownership

• Committed to buying and finishing her own home using savings and a low-interest bank loan, enduring 18 months of minimalism and strict budgeting.
• “I built the house in about 18 months... For 18 months, I used to eat lunch at the bank; I didn't have money for food.” (74:51)
• Lesson: Have specific savings goals, and multiple savings, not just for one expense.

c. Diversifying Income and Intentional Investments

• Developed multiple income sources (public speaking, influencing), saved for son’s university, and practiced disciplined budgeting.
• “It’s very dangerous to depend on one source of income. Very dangerous.” (76:59)

d. Financial Literacy Education

• Certified by the Bank of Uganda; discovered practical steps like saving before spending, budgeting for the whole year, and keeping only operational funds in the bank.

6. Parenting, Gender Roles, and Financial Responsibility

• Instilling Responsibility in Her Son:
  • Advocates for men’s financial responsibility in co-parenting, resisting the urge to rescue too quickly so her son learns his father's role (61:39–64:59).
  • “I want my son to grow up knowing the responsibility—financial responsibility—of a man.” (61:39)
• On African Culture and Children as Assets:
  • Critiques the outdated notion of children as labor, especially in modern urban Africa (60:08–60:48).

7. Contentment and Happiness

• Money as a Tool for Freedom, Not Status:
  • Discusses how alignment of expectations and reality brings happiness, not material wealth.
  • “Happiness really is the gap between your reality and expectations... There should be a level of contentment.” (84:43)
• On Chasing Appearances:
  • Warns against spending to impress others, highlighting cycles of insecurity and dissatisfaction (84:25–90:07).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On financial independence and happiness:
  • “Good financial management makes me feel really good about myself.” — Pumla (10:03)
• On leaving a marriage:
  • “I will not waste 10 years of my life... I was just not happy. I can't stay here, but I can't stay here and have no financial backing.” (35:20)
• On negotiating divorce and property:
  • “My ego is not in this discussion. Take your things, but remember, we have a child together.” (55:56)
• On co-parenting:
  • “I would be much softer in the separation so that I don’t antagonize him. So that we never have that story... that child will look for me one day.” (44:23)
• On saving vs. spending:
  • "The more you work, people reward themselves with more work instead of rest... When do we rest?" (10:39)
• On personal finance education:
  • “Somebody literally had to tell me how to save. Save as soon as you earn. That just tweaked everything.” (80:59)
• On happiness and contentment:
  • “Being rich is not what’s going to solve your problems. It’s how you manage your money.” (84:25)
• On financial failure:
  • “It would have to be an external crisis that causes me to lose all my sources of income for over four years.” (92:54)
• Her happiest financial memory:
  • “The happiest I’ve ever been was the day I opened a unit trust account, my first unit trust account, and put money into it.” (91:07)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–08:07 — Introduction to Pumla; lifestyle inflation confession.
• 11:26–23:07 — Childhood, education, and the illusion of poverty.
• 24:48–28:21 — First jobs and early earning/spending habits.
• 35:20–43:01 — Marriage, separation, and financial vulnerability.
• 49:24–60:00 — Divorce negotiations, co-parenting dynamics, and the role of humility.
• 71:25–76:59 — Turning points: Emergency funds, home ownership, and income diversification.
• 80:59–84:25 — Lessons from financial literacy training.
• 84:25–90:07 — Perceptions of wealth, happiness, and societal pressures.
• 91:07 — Happiest financial memory.
• 92:54 — On financial “failure” and her security threshold.

---

Takeaways and Practical Wisdom

• Lifestyle inflation can catch anyone, even teachers of finance. Recognize and combat emotional spending with self-awareness.
• Savings and emergency funds are not optional; true independence demands preparation for the unexpected.
• Peace of mind and happiness starts with living within your means and finding contentment, not in chasing appearances or status.
• In co-parenting, humility and prioritizing the child's wellbeing over ego leads to smoother, healthier arrangements.
• “Being rich won’t solve your problems, but managing money will make you happier and more at peace.”
• Diversifying income streams and investing intentionally prepare you for life’s inevitable shocks.
• Financial literacy courses offer actionable knowledge—even experts need practical reminders and frameworks.
• Financial planning is, ultimately, a journey of self-knowledge, discipline, and learning from your story.

---

This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating relationship transitions, seeking financial independence, or striving for inner peace through better money habits. Pumla’s honesty and the interplay with Barack create a rich, relatable roadmap for building wealth and rebuilding life—on your own terms.

---

Transcript

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Money. The lack of money will keep you in places that you're not supposed to be in longer than you should.

[Barack]

On the next episode of Financially Incorrect Uganda Edition. We speak to arguably the face of financial literacy in Uganda. Pumla Nabachwa.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I worked in NSSF. That's a National Social Security Fund. In my S4 vacation, the whole of it. That's when I started, like real touching, real money.

[Barack]

How much are they paying you? Do you remember?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

They were paying me 200,000, about $50.

[Barack]

Her father made a huge investment in their education. Find out why.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

My dad was raised in abject poverty. So his wiring was survival. We must survive in this world. And when he made it through the world, he realized that one of the things he was missing a lot were connections.

[Barack]

She tells us about RAV4 girls in Uganda.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

A RAV4 at the time was what we used to call Kampo Medde. Kampo Medde means it was sweet for me. They used to give Kampo Medes rav fours to side girls. Yeah. So it was a message of eh, that woman is sweet.

[Barack]

We get into the financial complexity of co parenting, how she navigated her separation and how she and her ex handle their son's bills and what humility has to do with it.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

My ego is not in this discussion. Take your things. But remember, we have a child together.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So may this child remain a beneficiary to some point.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

End of discussion. Put that aside.

[Barack]

She tells us why she has a four year emergency plan and her experience about going broke for 18 months while she was building her house.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

You know when houses are going up, they tell you a plan, but different things start happening. Money starts going. Different things are happening and you have to pay for them. Right? So that's really what happened. I had all my. My whole salary, everything just used to go. I had no extra income. That also was a turning point in my life. That taught me it's very dangerous to depend on one source of income. Very dangerous.

[Barack]

This is a story about how financial literacy can change your trajectory. Hey everybody. Welcome back to Financial Correct Uganda Edition. I have another episode for you. Remember, Uganda Edition comes every two, every other Tuesday. So in a month we usually have two episodes unless there is five weeks within a month. We shoot our episodes from the gadation at Tagore Living. It's an Airbnb a very gracious host who has given us the privilege and ability to be able to do this. Please check out the link in the description box. If you are headed to Kampala and want a nice Three bedroom place to stay. This would be a good place for you. Stay. Anyway, so my guest from today, context. Last year when we came in, I want to say June, July, whenever it was, we had a financial literacy event. We were supposed to have her on the podcast. Unfortunately her very busy and money filled schedule didn't allow it to happen. So we finally gotten it to happen. This time we got a lot of requests for her. She is none other than Pamela Navachoa. I think I've gotten that right. Did I mess it up?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Asked me for Navature and then got the Pumla wrong. Pumla. Pumla is a South African name that means rest.

[Barack]

I was so concentrated then I switched to the O, the A and the U. Anyway, yeah. So she is a financial literacy educator and an economist at the bank of Uganda. And she is a mom to a teenager, which is the most difficult job in the world.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

It's actually not being a mom to a toddler is the most difficult job, you know. I know. So been through the stages actually. No. What's, what's the baby below before toddler?

[Barack]

Zero to.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

That's terrible. That's the worst. Zero to two.

[Barack]

Oh my God. Really? Ever get easy? I've had that conversation with mom and she says the problems just get more difficult.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

No, they just get more complex, that's all. But any day a teenager, what I don't think, I don't know is a teenage daughter, I think I'll be having a different conversation. But I think when you have a teen, a son, you know, boys, it's either they go or they don't. So if they go, they go.

[Barack]

And he has not gone.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

He's not going. I've seen that. He's testing me. He tests me.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

But I don't let it because I was where he was. Yeah. And I went. You see, the thing with girls is when girls go, they go and come back. Boys usually when their story, if their storyline is corrupted or contaminated in high school, at adolescents, puberty, teenager, it's very different for them to rewrite their story. They go, because, because what's what?

[Barack]

What's what?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

What are the vices?

[Barack]

Right?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

You know, drugs, it's alcohol, it's sex. It's things that really mess up with your head. Yeah. When a girl goes, it's like, what? You know, I'm just. They're, they are rebellious and they're just not listening and they're not. So they, they can re retrace and come back and be like, you know what okay. So he's not going. And I'm so thankful. But it's a day by day process. Every day I wake up. Yeah. I say thank you every day. He comes, enters the house with his head, shoulders, and he's okay and his shoes still on his feet. I say thank you.

[Barack]

Yeah, but you sound very proud.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I am, but maybe I should be proud of myself because I'm the one that raised that.

[Barack]

Yeah, you should be.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah. He turned 17 this year. And that's like. That's just one way to an adult.

[Barack]

Yeah. But you guys have, I think, the last time we're here, I think when we're talking to Regan, you guys have IDs you can get at 16 or something? Some identification thing?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yes. You can get a national identification from 16.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yes.

[Barack]

So does he have what he does

[Pumla Nabachwa]

or yours is 18? Yeah. How's the 16? No, actually, you can get a number. So what? You can get the national ID, the physical ID you can get as an adult by 18, but you can get what? The national identification number. Okay, so that's different.

[Barack]

Okay. Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah, that. That one. You can get younger. Okay, so yours is 18.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Always 18.

[Barack]

Yes. ID.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Okay.

[Barack]

I don't think you get an ID before 18. Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

No. Yeah. And it. You shouldn't really, because they have school IDs, which would suffice.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

You are a financial literacy educator.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

Tell me, what's the most financially incorrect thing you did in 2025?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Last year.

[Barack]

Last year, because you're only like a month into this year.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

The most financially incorrect thing I did in 2025.

[Barack]

Yes. Are they that many sound or.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I think that few. I don't know that they're there.

[Barack]

Oh, really?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

No.

[Barack]

Like, you had a. If. If you had like a. At the beginning of the year, you had a financial plan.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yes.

[Barack]

Like, you scored an A. You did every single thing that you wanted to do.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So maybe I will say the most financially incorrect thing I did was I got backstory. I earned over a hundred percent more than I thought I would. And my teaching in financial literacy is save fast, which I did. But when I went back to look through what I could have saved, I would have saved more. So I. The financially incorrect thing I did was I spent more. I spent more excessively than I should have on things that really did not add me that much value. It was just a celebration of, oh, my God, you've got so much more extra income. I worked really hard last year. I have a really hard last year. And I got smart. Not hard I worked really smart last year and I got a lot of returns and a lot of results and I maybe did the one thing I I it lifestyle inflation, where now I've earned more, I can spend more, which is not my teaching.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

At.

[Barack]

Well, what do you think happened that led to, I guess you spending more

[Pumla Nabachwa]

because money is emotional instead of logical? Again, you see, because I'm an educator, I'm a human being. Fast. I might be preaching and I'm telling you, I know that preachings, I know the principles, I know the fundamentals. So that is what I give you, that's what I share with my audience. But I'm a human being and my teaching is money is you should treat money logically. Emotions, you can't remove emotions from human being because we're emotional beings. But there should be some thought process into why the why and the what. So the what you spend on and the how you spend always influences the. The how, the why and the what influence the how. But when you put emotions and you use less logic, you will find yourself with really terrible choices. So me that really, I will not lie to you as it might, because my budget allowed it, I knew how much I was going to earn, except I'm a salaried earner, so that I put aside always. But then I also have these. These, you know, the side stuff. Yeah. I don't want to say side stuff because it's really part of me. It's part of my income. So it's not what I do, but it's seasonal. I can't estimate, but I based off what I did, the work I did the year before, and then that's the figure I put and then some because I know I'm going to get more. But that figure was so surpassed that I achieved all my financial goals for the year. And I had so much more to spare. So I saved a lot more than I had intended. But I could have saved more, even more or invested even more.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah, makes sense. Yeah.

[Barack]

Let's get into your money story.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I can't believe you. I know. I feel bad. Thinking about it makes me feel bad because good financial management.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Makes me feel really good about myself. Now you've made me think.

[Barack]

Think about it. I mean, do you do, do you. I guess there's a lot of, I want to say, maybe like colloquial knowledge around, you know, forgiving oneself and being

[Pumla Nabachwa]

able to move forward from that.

[Barack]

Is that something that you also teach or forgiving when it comes to money? Yeah, I mean, I mean like Right now you're saying you're feeling bad because

[Pumla Nabachwa]

you didn't say yeah, ye then feel bad with action. Yeah, yeah. So the action that what would make me really feel better and forgive myself better is if I did better this year. This year? Yeah. Okay, so my actions this year, a

[Barack]

year from now we'll have this conversation and see.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

But I had planned to rest more this year. You see the thing with Africans, actually it's not an African problem. I think it's a human being problem. The more you work, the more you work, people reward themselves with more work instead of rest. So every time somebody works hard and they see results, they want to work even harder to see more results. And then they get those results, then they want to work even harder. When do we rest? So I had, I really worked out last year. So I'd planned to play, you know, rest a little bit more this year, this year, reward myself.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

But now I ate the money, now I have to work again.

[Barack]

Okay, let's get into your money story. Okay, so where does your story begin? What kind of household did you grow up in? Were you in middle class? Did you guys have money? What was it like?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So I only found out that I grew up privileged about five years ago.

[Barack]

You only found out.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I always thought we were poor. Yeah, I always thought we were poor. And why? Because my dad, my. Let me explain my parents professions, White collar job. My dad was an IT specialist. Trained, experienced, I T specialist. And my mom is. Well, they're both retired now. My mom was a lecturer at Macquarie University. She has a PhD in Food Science and nutrition. So that's what she did. And they made okay money. It was all right. The problem is, which turned out to be great later, is that my dad believed in quality education for different reasons. My dad was raised in abject poverty. So his wiring was survival. We must survive in this world. And when he made it through the world, he realized that one of the things he was missing a lot were connections and the peers that he was now in formal places with. You realize these people went to the same schools. They were brought up in the same way, in the same places. They connected their thought processes, their reasoning was similar and so they aligned. But because of his background, not so much. So even if he was as deserving, the seat at the table came with so much work. So my dad decided he's going to put us to. He strategically placed us in schools where he knew that 20 years down the road, 30 years down the road, Pumla can pick up a phone and say excuse and knock at anybody's door and be let in easier because that was survival mode. My mom was brought up in good life. Her dad was a doctor, he was a chief, he was good life. So for her it was just, yeah, that's business as usual. So she believed in quality education because she had experienced the quality education and she was a testimony to the results of quality education. What did that do to us, the five children? We were put in schools of rich and wealthy children. And what is the natural human response to compare? So let me tell you. We didn't have anything. All we were doing was going to rich people schools because that's what my dad believed. He would not spend on anything else. It was just you would spend on other things. But there was such an investment in education that was expensive that the other people, the people who were taking the two kids who were going to school with, for them it was just pocket change. I mean they had the latest shoes, the latest bugs, they went on trips outside the country. Their life was just different. So I literally thought we were poor because that's just the representation of what I, I saw. And again, because my parents kept us in a bubble, I couldn't compare with anybody else. So even his closest friends, their best, my parents, best friends, their closest friends were those kinds of people. So Meg brought up thinking we were until one. And even as I grew because again you kind of attract and keep the company of people who are similar to you, right? To be fair, I think my first interaction with people who are different than me was in the other university. That's the first time I sat with people who were paying their own school fees, who had to work for their pocket money, who would tell stories, their parents, they had nowhere to go over the weekend. Even when we had recession, they couldn't afford to go back to their homes. I was so confused again. My parents also brought us up in a two parent household. I did not know any single person who was raised by either a grandparent, by anyone other than the two parents who gave birth to them until university. My first experience with a broken home and family was in university. And that just didn't make sense. It was just so to hear somebody say that my mother has goes without shoes to so that I can go to school, it just, it was not aligned. Again because of the bubble that I was brought up in.

[Barack]

How, how did your parents create this bubble? Cuz it sounds like, I mean and, and, and up until university is a very long time. I mean from. It's like it's like 18 years, right? How did they create 18 years of a bubble? Like what are the kind of things that they're doing? Because it almost sounds like you almost have to like confine someone, almost.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

No, you know that you can live in this world and there are five, six different realities and people. You can tell us about your Kampala, Uganda and get five different people and they'll tell you five different stories or conversations because that's the, that's how they were brought up. You're not really exposed. You don't really see it. If you're living in a kind an affluent neighborhood, if you're going to a good school, if somebody is just keeping a certain kind of people around you, where are you going to find these other people? Do you think that Bill gets daughter knows anything other than the world that she's been brought up in? She's not being confined. But that's just the world you're exposed to. That's the limit of your exposure. You don't know any better. My parents, our extra activities were piano, tennis, swimming. It baffles me. I found out that most people don't. Africans don't know how to swim. When I was at the university, I was so confused. But why don't you know how to swim? That's just a life skill. In my head it was a life skill. If they throw you in the water, why aren't you swimming? It's like running and walking, a natural process of, you know, of movement.

[Barack]

Right.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So your mind is just wired differently and you see things differently through the lens that you've been exposed to. End of discussion. So it wasn't that it was forced. My dad just set up a structure

[Barack]

and that was it.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

And that was it. And we went forward with it. End of discussion. Because even the abject poverty that my father was born into, it shielded us from. So we would go to the village only to bury. And my dad, because he's the one who was now self made, he dictates, you know, money's power. Yes, it dictates when someone dies, we bury the next day. So we don't have that business of Africans where you go to the village, you stay there for three days. Because of. In Uganda we call it Lumbe, you know, just condoling with bereaved. And we, we don't, we didn't have that back home if you died today. Because my father is the one who is going to be called and asked. We need financial support because. And here we run barriers, vigils for days and days and you're feeding people. So on that day the person dies, they go to the mortuary, there is no body. The next day the body comes when we are barring. He has already arranged the tents, the funeral arrangements. So we, we go there just to bury and then and leave. So I didn't really see that side as well. The people would come home, we wouldn't go to them, they would come to us. That's just how I was raised. So me, I thought we are poor, but I also didn't see poorer. So my comparison was. I had no comparison. Everything else I saw was what's the most?

[Barack]

What's the most? If you can remember the most affluent family or most affluent person you met during that period, what were they doing?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

In which period? When I was younger or now?

[Barack]

When, when you were younger, when you were young, when you were growing up and comparing yourself to these guys. What were the things that was the most extravagant thing you saw someone do?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Do you know they used to leave us with the house keys when they would be going on vacation to Mauritius. I first heard the word Mauritius when I was in primary school. Some of you only had it in adulthood. Seychelles, Mauritius, Maldives. Those countries existed, those islands existed. I had those words. But because again we were a family of five, these richer people, by the way, they had three kids, they had fewer kids. And actually that's when I made the decision to not have more than two children in my life. Because we were the ones who were house sitting for these rich people. And for me that's what really bothered me that you mean people can get. Pick their families and everybody gets onto a plane and goes to Seychelles for a week and they come back. In my family, you. We were only. We could only leave the country after primary seven results had come out and you must have got, must have achieved. And that means they're sending one at a time. We never ever traveled as a family. Never. And for me that has always been a lot of my inspiration came from. I must be able to pick my family and we travel together and experience the world as a family and come back home without a care in the world. And I think that's where my measure of success has always been. If I can pick my family, all of us, we go together and come back. Because Seychelles, While that was 1997, that thing hurt me so much. I'm serious. It hurt me so much because. And then please note that me, my P7 because my family is a family of high achievers.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I didn't get that Result, the one that. So did I go? I didn't go.

[Barack]

But my siblings was a reward.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

It was a reward. Yeah. So now, but at the end of the day, I'm being marked against my parents. My parents family is high achievers, my siblings, high achievers. So for them, they were able to go because they got the grades to go. I got good grades as well. Really good grades actually. But it was not their grade that they had said.

[Barack]

You must have gotten to give me context.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So we have. Yeah, four. So you must have got a four or. I think they said a five as well. So how, let me just explain that. So you get distinction. 1, 1, 1. If you get 95% and above. 90% and above is 2. 85 and above is 3. Like that. Like that. So I got two distinction ones and two distinction twos. So I got a six. The best mark you can get is a four because the subjects are four. Right. So you have to get 1, 1, 1, 1 and then that's a four. I don't know how the Kenyan system is. It's a bit similar. Not at all different.

[Barack]

Totally different right now.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Something's changed. Yeah, I know. You changed your education system and things like that. Yeah. So imagine I still got distinctions, but I couldn't because of the bar that was set.

[Barack]

Wow.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So I, I, Yeah. And then someone comes and tells you, we are coming back. Please. The house kids are here in case of anything. In case of. So I think that for me was what? Yeah, that they'll just take trips and come back with things, you know, with, with shoes, clothes, bugs. That's what I saw.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Physically at that age, I mean.

[Barack]

But from what you're telling me now, I, I, I would want to think that your, your parents, you know, had quite a bit of money as well. Because if they're taking all five of you through what I would assume would be expensive, an expensive education. Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's just, they

[Pumla Nabachwa]

just, they had good money. Yeah. But they spent all of it on education. So we had nothing else. That's it. Okay. So I don't know what you call that.

[Barack]

Fair enough.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

For to that child who's experiencing this, you see again, lenses, the parent seeing this is seeing something different. It's an investment in my child's future. And I mean, it paid off.

[Barack]

Paid off.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah. Okay. Off. Because, and I'll tell you a story. I have one of the places and twofold. I literally, it's difficult in this country for me not to be able to make a Phone call and get what I want. Honestly, because those same people I went to school with, these were affluent. Like as we were not as we were middle class. Middle. Middle class. These were really rich people. I don't think wealthy rich, just rich Uganda. I don't know if do we have any generational will and I don't think so. Except the first family maybe. But these were. And we. The school I went to is where the first family went to school. So that's the measure, I'm telling you. Actually, let's go back from Mauritius. They used to come to school and the. The rich people's children were allowed to enter school over lunch. They never used to have lunch with us. They're no more kids. So they would enter school in their vehicles and they would eat. They back for their parents would come have lunch because their mothers also didn't have to work at the time. So the moms would come or maids feed them and leave at lunchtime. So that's the, that's the picture that I used to see. And yet for us it was no, you eat the school food, eat with the river to pack for us snacks or anything. Nothing. Because again, all the money was in, in education.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

Okay. So when, when, when do you start interacting with money for yourself, even if it's pocket money or anything? When do you actually, you know, start touching money, so to speak?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

When do I start touching money? Oh, I had jobs in my. When I was in vacations. All my vacations I got jobs. I had S4. I don't know what you call that. We have O level and A level. So end of O level.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah. So end of. Oliver, the holiday is really long. It's about maybe four months. And it was that systems changed now and then end of A level was about six, seven, eight months break before university. So I got like real jobs. I worked in NSSF. That's a national Social Security fund. In my S4 vacation, the whole of it. That's when I started like real touching, real money.

[Barack]

How much are they paying you? Do you remember?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

They were paying me 200,000. That's the equivalent of UTX is fine.

[Barack]

You know we do this for Uganda edition. So we're not.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Again, because I'm an educator, I do that. I do the account. I calculate very quickly because when I say Uganda shillings, I want my audience is larger than Uganda. So I want everybody to understand. So, so. And I'm going to just round off, let's say 50. 50, right. About $50 a month. This was in 2000-9899-2000-2001. Okay, that's 2001.

[Barack]

You remember what you did with the money?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah. Bought clothes. That's all I did with the money. I only. That's all I did with the money because my parents were taking pick, dropping me. Okay. I had transport back home. I had transport fare. They'll give me transport, but that's all I did. The next job, nothing else.

[Barack]

Similar.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Next job? Similar. I worked in a commercial bank. Similar. Nothing changed again because my pan. Let's go back maybe to my money, where my money comes from, Right? My money mindset. I grew up in a home where you make. If you want to spend money, you make money. Which I think is a typical thing, at least in my experience with educating. If you want to spend money, you must make it. So all we are taught or exposed to is if you want to spend, because we all want to spend. You make. So we were taught how to make and make and make and make and make. And as long as you're making enough to spend on what you want, you're okay. Nothing in between. Nothing in between. I worked through my university as well. Actually. That job for my Essex vacation kind of continued into my uni, but it became really taxing. I started to see how it was affecting my grades. So I stopped. And I stopped only after finding another job that allowed me to work weekends and after school. So that was actually now eabl, it was a breweries company. So I promoted all these products. White cup. I think you have white cup now I have a sman of ice. I'm the one who promoted them. They came to Uganda at the time when I was promoting and they would pay me to advertise that. So I would go, you know those people who you see at roundabouts? I was the one in university supermarkets. Ah, in university. It's okay. When they're telling you we are going to give you 20,000 Uganda shillings, that is $5 here, let's say for two hours, you have to be there. So I'd go to supermarkets, those ones who are trying to convince you, can you try this product? Can you try? Then we'd go to the bars. When we go to the bars and nightclubs, they would pay us about 35000 Uganda shillings, which was great because remember, we're in university. Call your buddies, they come, they would give us free alcohol, you know, so it that again, same thing. Did nothing to account for my money. Nothing because of how I was raised. Make money, you make money to spend it Spend money.

[Barack]

Right.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

End of discussion. So that's it.

[Barack]

Right.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

That went on through uni. Then I got after uni. I was one of those again, privileged people. Not privileged because this was my own hard work and determination. I got a job before I graduated. So I didn't ever have that struggle. I walked the streets. I dropped my papers. The first job I applied for, actually I applied for three jobs at a time. Those jobs which usually take in graduate. Yeah. Graduate trainee program. Yeah. But they pay you so my first job I remember was UAP insurance. And I was being paid a net of 500000 Uganda shillings. That is a hundred pounds. Yeah.

[Barack]

So again, are you living at home?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Are you expensive? I'm living at home. Okay. Nothing. Nothing. Everything is. And I had a boyfriend now at the time who used to pay for everything. He was much older than I was. Yeah. So he would ask me what was I doing with my money. Nothing. Even bought me a car that he would feel well. He bought you himself? Yeah, he was older.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

He bought me a car when I was. As my graduation gift. You know, you guys, when I look back at my young, my youth. Yeah.

[Barack]

I really enjoyed ask you something as. As I. I have two daughters and I'm also trying to like I guess put myself in that context.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

What does. Does. How does your father respond to. You're living in his house, you graduated.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

And another man buys you a car.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Can I ask you what he asked me when he saw the car park? Is the title in your name?

[Barack]

That's it.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

That's it. My father believed in security.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

He said if you drive around a car that a man has given you that is not in your name, it is not your car. He has lent you a car. He has not. So if anything happens. That seat.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

He asked me the title in your name. And he asked me to show him the title.

[Barack]

It was in your name.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

It was in my name.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah. And he said that's fine. Then it's your car, you can get a gift. But I'm not having another man's car in my compounds. That's what he says. Yeah. And I was like, all right. Yeah. So I implore you if men are going to give your children gifts and they are of age who are adults. I was at university when we started dating. So that was fine. Was just 10 years my senior and my dad also. Maybe it's another thing. I don't know if I should give you this one. My dad, when he would find out who we're dating he'll find out where they are working and go to the HR again connection and ask them for the cv. Yeah. He would ask us first. But of course he raised women with big, big heads on their shoulders. Of course I was like, I'm sorry, what? It's my choice. How dare you.

[Barack]

Right.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

He would go back routes.

[Barack]

I'll find out.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

When I found a CV of my man in his. In his house, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. I used to go sneak. Sneak things to get stuff from his room and I found a full cv.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

And you know what? Why? Because my partner at the time, my boyfriend was driving a truck, a company truck. And he said many men use those come and they are the drivers. So they come and pretend and be. And I didn't. And there's nothing, nothing wrong with being a driver. But he said, let him be honest and tell you he's a driver and not confusing. Yeah. Not present, not represent himself. That that is his car and that this is his ability. So I went and when you see up. Because then he stopped asking me. So I. Yeah, so that, that, that's me. That's what he asked me. I said okay. I mean financial security. Wow.

[Barack]

It sounds like an indirect conversation about money. Did he ever talk to you directly about. About money beyond that?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

No. All it was independence for women to have their own money.

[Barack]

That was the thing that mattered.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah, for him, that's all that mattered. He said. He used to tell us that as a woman. Actually it was a both thing. But because these conversations are natural for men. We were four daughters. He had four daughters and one son, the firstborn. So for him it was always that money, the lack of money will keep you in places that you're not supposed to be in longer than you should. That's what he said. So when you have money, you'll be able to choose the people you surround yourself with. You will never be. You don't want to know what it takes for you to compromise your values. I've raised you with good heads on your shoulders. But I don't want you to know what it takes for you. So I'll sit here and I know that Pumla, you're a woman of integrity. I know you can never compromise your ethics. I know you can never compromise your morals. But there are women out there who are sleeping around with men because they have children to feed. I don't want you to reach one day when you don't have food for your child, your morals will be tested. So Even if you're a woman of integrity, you will sell yourself because of a child and the world will accept it. Yeah, they will accept that story. So for him, it was always that, just have your own money. And. But his other thing was, have your own money. But men should spend on you. Yeah, they should. It's their responsibility. They should. But have your money.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah, that was his principle.

[Barack]

Are there. Are there any comments from maybe peers or people around you when this car comes into. Into your life?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah. Everyone is like, wow, can we get a ride?

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

We were kids. I was 22. Imagine I was 22 years old driving around a RAV4. So ARAV4 at the time was what we used to call Campo med. Kampo Mede means it was sweet for me. They used to give Kampo Mede's ruffles to side girls. Yeah. So it was a message of, hey, that woman is sweet, so let me gift her this car. So they used to call me Kampo Mede. So it's like how you walk around pregnant and it's evidence that you've had sex. So when you drive that car at 22, they know you didn't buy it for yourself. It's not the car a father buys for his child.

[Barack]

The first car.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So there's a man who bought you that car. So it's like you're walking sweetness. So that's really what the perception was. And it was funny. But I was in Micah, and it was being fueled by the man who had bought the car. So it was good life. But let me tell you why the man bought me that car. He got tired of dropping me up and picking me up. I know that for a fact. Yeah, it was functional. Yeah. He used to pick me and drop me from work every day. And we didn't live that close to each other, so it was problematic. So I think in his head, he was just like, it was functional. He was like, yeah, actually they were selling off. You know, in. In companies when they are selling off old cars and things like that. So he managed to get one really cheap, and then he just sold that one and was able to buy me this one. So it was just. It was functional. I know, a gesture of love.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

But function, which. Which I was. I was. I was okay with.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah, makes sense. But again, I was still being looked after.

[Barack]

Right. So what happens next in your. In your money. In your money story? What's the next significant thing that happens? Do you pursue independence? Do you want to now, like, move out and those kinds of Things.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So the next thing, the very next thing where my. My real. One of the first lessons where money showed me was again, my father's sentiment ringing supreme. You will find yourself in spaces longer than you're supposed to because you don't have money. I made a decision to separate with my husband, the man who bought me the car. You get married, we get married to the man who bought me the nice car. We get married. Things don't work out as they should. Again, because my father raised me with the head on my shoulders. I'm like, I can see very far that this relationship is going to be one of those cautionary tales where after 20 years of marriage, people stand in at their wedding anniversary and say, you don't know the things that we have gone through, but we are here happy after going through 10 years of turmoil. Me, I said, I will not waste 10 years of my life. I could see that one day we would be okay. But I could see that to get over this mess that had just started in the home, we would need a minimum of 10 years. I was 23 years old. I said, and you know, when you're 23, 33 seems like your old age. Yeah, it seems as like me now at 30 and I'm there now I'm starting to leave. And speaking at wedding anniversaries, talking about how we went through, we struggled with what? Me, I don't want to struggle. I don't want struggle. Life, I said. And people used to say, but pumla. And they would ask me, did he beat you? No. Did he cheat on you? Not that I know of. Was he not giving you? He was providing. But I was raised different. Like to see different things. Character and alignment and happiness. Me, I was raised to be happy as a human being. And I was not. I was just not happy. I was like, I can't stay here. But I can't stay here. Had no financial backing. I was being looked after entirely. And now I had moved to bank of Uganda. I was only at UF Insurance for one year. I applied to bank of Ghana. They were doing the same graduate training. Got in first time and I started. I was getting. Our first salary was 1 million, 1.5 million, which is about $400, give or take. $400 per month, take home. So I had now moved from £100 to 400. I'm using different currency.

[Barack]

It's a global. A global audience, clearly. Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Okay, so again doing the same thing. So now as soon as I get married, I wanted to pursue my education to do my master's degree. But my husband was quite traditional and he just said, no, let's just have children first and then you can do that later. So I, I wasn't happy with it, but I just decided, I gave in, I decided, you know what, this is not an argument I want to have. So let me just have the kids be done with them. I can go and study. There's always place to study. In hindsight, I think it was the best decision. I wouldn't give it. And if I was back in my a 22 year old self again, I would choose the master's degree. But in Hindsight, as a 40 year old, I'm like, imagine I have a 17 year old son who I'm here with and I still have the master's degree. So I mean, you know, I could do it later. Yeah, so that was one of the real problems now we had. So I had a child immediately. So I got married in December, September. Nine months later I had a baby again. I'm not spending on anything. I'm not, I'm just luxury. So now I started buying things for my child, luxury things. My husband was paying for everything, buying everything, end of it. Now I reach a point when I'm so unhappy in this home and I say I'm leaving. I stayed in that home for eight months longer than I should have because I had no savings. The power of savings. I understood what it meant at that time. I had no savings at all. Nothing that you could speak about. I went looking for places to live. All of them were asking me for. I think the good places were like 400,000, which is, let's go about a hundred dollars, $100 per month, which I didn't have. So actually what I had was like two months. But most of the good places were asking for four months to six months, which I didn't have. So I ended up staying longer to save more money. And then I went. So now I had four months. I went out to now say now I'm. Please note I'm doing everything silently in my head. I am first establishing myself. Then I come and say I'm sorry, bye, I've gone. So I went, I go look for a house, a place. I found the perfect house, the perfect house. But they were asking for 200,000 over. That's $50 more than the average house. And they asked for six months. Actually, actually, no, it was around market price, but they were asking for more months. I had four months and. But I had decided enough is enough. And I'm moving. I called, I had to call my, my parents were going through some financial crisis at the time. So I know I called my mom. My mom was like, you know what I can give. I told her I need one month extra. I didn't want her to know how bad the situation was. So I didn't divulge. Actually they needed the place I was going to needed three months extra. So my mom gave me one month's extra. And then I called a very close auntie of mine. I explained to her the situation and she called me and said, come to my office, I'll give you two months extra, two months rent. I gathered my money like this, paid to the landlord and came back home and then had a conversation with my husband to which we did mutually agree and say, you know what, this is really not working. But you know, there's this thing that men have. They behave badly, they treat you badly in their relationship. The day you say I'm moving, they say let's make it work. I can change, I can be better. Let us solve this. You've been talking and talking and talking and talking. So now that's the conversation we started getting into. But me, I'd really paid the landlord. So I knew I was said, I am not backing down. Constant. This manipulation is not going to work because I've put money somewhere else. Yeah, I'm going. So if you want us to work on this, let's work on it. Separated apart. Yeah. He said, of course there was no okay. But me, I had paid, carried my belongings and I moved. But when I moved to this house, please note, now I only have money for rent. I had no furniture, my son and I, I only moved with my son's bed and mattress. So he had where to sleep. Me, I had a mattress. I slept on the floor. I had nothing. Curtains. We used to use bed sheets. It is when I was on the floor sometime, you know, lying down on the cold floor crying that I wondered how did I get here? I work for the Central bank of Uganda. How do I have no bed? How do I have no furniture, no chairs in the living room? How do I have no curtains? It was a wake up call. That's when the real wake up call of Pumla. You need to set money aside for a time for anim, for emergencies. And that's the first time that was my son was one year old. I think at the time I left. I ran away pretty early. It was I think one year old.

[Barack]

Had you been married for a year by the time you you left.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah. So that was. We were married for 21 months, I think.

[Barack]

What, so just, just, just under two years.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Just under two years? Yeah, it was just under two years.

[Barack]

Did money have anything to do with your, your separation? No, money was not a factor at all.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

If anything, it's money that delayed the separation. The lack of my money is what delayed the separation. But money had nothing to do with the separation. It was just things that had accumulated over time and I didn't see how for forgiveness was not going to come easy.

[Barack]

Right, right.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So it was just that was it? Yeah. By money. No, my husband was a generous man. He gave, paid for everything provided, supported. Still does because then he looks after my son and because I've had you mention actually Barack about. You grew up with a single mom. Yes, single mom and no support from elsewhere.

[Barack]

So financially separated when, when I was teenager, when I was about, I think 12, 12, 13. And so, so since then, yeah, my mom has done, has done everything. We have four boys.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Four boys. Oh, wow.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Financially. So she's supported you since then?

[Barack]

Yes. And, and yeah, let me leave it at. Since then, since then. Let me not, Let me not.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Okay. Yeah. So I, I, I actually made a decision because I had seen what separation can do, what divorce can do to the child. I made a decision that my son's father. I would do everything in my power because I'm the one who decided to move initially matters. He agreed eventually and we talked about it and really we say mutual agreement, but usually it's one person who initiates. But then in hindsight, now even I can see that he's thankful because there are many homes where people just stay together. It's toxic. But either way it's hard. Whether you choose to stay or you choose to leave, you choose your hard. Either There is nothing that's harder than the other. So I know I made, I made a decision that even if I was harder headed in the marriage, I would be much softer in the separation so that I don't antagonize him. So that we never have that story of you know what, that's a Luganda saying that many fathers, absentee fathers like to say that that child will look for me one day. They'll grow and look for me. Why? Because sometimes the mom is making access difficult. Yeah, they're making. So I softened myself to ensure that it is never my, it will never be my fault or my problem if my son does not have relationship, a relationship with his father. So I took even more garbage. The garbage I Was refusing to take in the marriage. I took them garbage in the. In the divorce to make it easier because I know men and their egos. So I didn't want it to ever be that. Yeah, even that person even know me. When he said something, I said okay. When he did, I said, okay. So he has financially supported his child. He has been present physically in his child's life emotionally. He's a real father. We just live separately. That's it. Remarried, even went ahead remarried. My son now has siblings who he gets along with really well. He married a really fantastic woman who he really should have married in the first place. Not me. She's the total opposite of me. But yeah, so because she's a lovely person, she gets along. She loves my son. It's like a relationship, actually. And also that one, I decided that I prayed that my. My son's father would get. Would remarry. That was for me, my one prayer. Do you know why? Because men never release you until they get somebody else. It's the truth.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

And you know, like, even when I would be as if dating. When he would hear about anything, his attitude would change. Yeah. I literally had to. I didn't date until my. My baby daddy remarried.

[Barack]

When you're talking about. When you're talking about attitude changing, is this the same, you know, earlier you had referenced when you want to leave, then people start.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

You know, doing the things that you've

[Pumla Nabachwa]

been asking them to do.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

So is that how. What the attitude would be like?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. He'll become hostile.

[Barack]

Ah, okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

He'll become hostile. I'm bringing up the sentiments of who are you? Which women? Which. Those men who are. You're exposing my son to. That's the card they like to play that. Who's that? What are you doing? You're exposing my son. How many will you expose him to? But for them, when they get somebody, it's okay for you. It's okay for you to expose your children to as many baby women as possible, but when they hear that for you, you are, it's problematic. So I think he would hear sometimes dating or what? And then he would. I would see the way he would treat me. Change a little bit. Change a little bit. He'd become more apprehensive, more so again in being softer. I released it. I didn't do anything. Even if even I was not, because I'd always said, my son is still young. I don't want to bring another man into his life right now. I took him out of a stable environment. Let me not put him in a situation that I cannot control. But once in a while someone would be around, around and somebody would hear and then the message would get transmitted and things would change. So I prayed that he got married and he did get married and he got married to a, A woman who loves my son. So even the prayer was not who loves my son. Because I was like, you know what, that's good. You, you'd handle that. But I knew if he gets married, he'll leave me alone. Which he did. And then the woman, she's. She actually made him a much better man and father even to mine. Because, you know, a single dad, sometimes he's working, he's doing this, he's moving his, his priorities. Like I need to make money for the child anyway.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So presence is not so much. But when he got married, he became even more present. He became. So I was worked out. I was really worked out. But I know for a fact it's because I softened myself to accommodate the situation. Sorry, we went off tangent. Yeah, no, no, no, no.

[Barack]

It's absolutely fine. I'm curious about the, the divorce process and separation process in relation to money. Yeah. Do you have to get a lawyer or are these things that you, you, you, you agree on? Is that for what you can share the, the, the way you decide to split things, is that contentious or is that simple? Is that easy for you?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah. Because again, in softening everything I. He. We had property together. Yeah, but did we really have property together or. It was his property and he put my name. I had no money. I was buying clothes. Yeah. And shoes and bugs. So again, because I didn't want to fight, I released everything. I released everything except income got would be for my son. Yeah. But I removed everything. My ones that had my name on the titles on the list. I removed everything.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

And I think it was all right at the time. You know, it's difficult to do that if you've been together for 10 years.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

And then you amass property. And even if you didn't amass. I would say that because even if a woman is not putting in the money or the money is not putting in the money, there must have been some support that is non monetary, you know, so the split should be. But for me it was just under two years. Honestly, I really hadn't put in any financial anything at all. We spent those two years fighting. So I'm sure I was not his peace or his support. I had to be honest so that we Put aside, it's only the lawyer again bringing us back to financial and saving. I literally had to use a lawyer. And if I, if this was a battle we had to fight so much I would have lost because I had to choose a lawyer who was within the family who agreed that I would pay him later. So I was, my divorce lawyer was on Banja was crown credits. We say in Uganda, it's on Banj. Yeah. So again, and you see it is that whole process of separation and divorce that made me realize the financial decisions I had been making in my past were really not healthy. That I was just spending money because I had it. But what was I spending on? I could not account for anything that I was really spending on. Yeah, I couldn't.

[Barack]

I mean it sounds like you have. And even at the time you had a very noble approach towards it, the separation in removing yourself and saying I didn't contribute to X, I didn't do this, so I won't do this. Were there no contrary voices in your ear at that point in time telling you otherwise or make a different decision?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

No, no, no, no, no. And I think this also goes back to the fact of the quality education. I don't know if it's education or upbringing that I was me, I was raised to be happy when just to have peace, to live in this present moment, to be peaceful. So even getting out of the separation, getting out of the marriage was a decision I made to be happy. But what I find people doing is that when they leave a hostile situation now they become they. So let me. Let's look. Go back to marriage and divorce. You leave the marriage because you are unhappy. Now you're in the divorce and still unhappy. That doesn't make sense to me. It does not.

[Barack]

One of them has to be happy.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Something's got to give. Yes. You can't have your cake and eat it too. So me, I decided to remove myself and then so and I feel like maybe I grew up really quickly at the time. I really matured at that time because I was 23. I got married at 23. I had my son at 24. I was separated at 25. So for a 25 year old, remember my parts of my brain are not yet even developed. The parts that are really thinking logically and making rational decisions and not even developed. But I think it happened really quickly that I always knew, Pumla, you want to be happy. What are the things in this separation that might make things more difficult for you? Property, Child custody. So property I decided so you know when you're going through a divorce, they tell you you can only choose between three things. I don't know if it's changed in your country. Different in your country. In my country it's cruelty. It is abandonment for two years and it is cheating. You can never prove cheating unless you invest in improving your cheating. You must invest in choosing cheating. Cruelty is only applicable if the other person admits and says okay, I was cruel. So the easiest way at the time was abandonment. But it, it means you must have been separated for two years. So for me I said I'm not going to fight cruelty. He did not cheat. So let's wait out the two years. That was my first decision to wait it out. I was like, no problem, just, just waiting out, just waiting out. It's okay. But as we separated, of course he entered another relationship and had a child. Now I could prove cheating. Yeah, that was it. So what you have to prove court in the court's eyes, even in that window of separation, you're still legally married. So what heist and our process was that when a bud came in the ear and told me there's a child on that way.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

And I knew my ex husband was of high moral. He's not the kind of guy who you would say something and he denies it. He would not deny for the sake of, for the. Yeah, just for the sake of it. If there's a child, he's not denying a child. So I wrote through my lawyer and I said I've been informed ABCDE and what. Whatever. So is it is there My lawyer went and he said yes. So he admitted to it. That immediately took us on divorce. Now we are in the divorce. House. Two areas again. Property, child custody. I said this one of child custody. Come on buy. First of all, it's joint. What are we talking about? Yes, I'm not. It's no contest. It's joint custody. I'll just fear for myself if he dec to want to prove a point and want to do soul custody. But I didn't believe him. You know, I tell people you open your legs for men and then you blame them later that they are narcissists, that they are bad mannered. But when you were, when things were okay, you think those they were not those same people they were. You just chose not to. So me even from a very young age, I've always chosen character over anything else. So if even my exes. There's no ex I can bad mouth not because I don't want to, but because I chose them. I know what I was choosing. So I choose long term. I choose good people, good hearted, kind natured. So that's why it's difficult for me to have a story and say, oh, that man, that. No, it's them who say, that woman. Yeah, yeah. It's usually the reverse. They don't say that woman, but me, that man. No, it's not there. So he was. I knew he was a good man. I knew he would not separate me from my child.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So. But I decided to give him the first gift. I said, before we discuss child, let us discuss property. So that when he comes and he realizes that I'm saying, bring all the papers and I sign off my name, he'll soften and give me everything else that I ask for. Which is what happened. So because I was allowing him and saying, you know what? My ego is not in this discussion. Take your things, but remember, we have a child together.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So may this child remain a beneficiary to some point.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

End of discussion. Put that aside. Then we said, now, child custody, what do you want? I said, for me, I don't pay school fees and in case something happens to me with my job, I don't pay medical. That's it.

[Barack]

Just cover those, just cover those.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I'll do everything else. Actually, he had come to say, you know what, since there's this term, lawyers, you know, lawyers are not really on our side. So the lawyer decided, came with terms and said, you would have been living in a one bedroomed house if not for your child. So because you have a child, he has to pay half your rent. I went and had a discussion with my mother. My mother told me, for as long as a man pays any amount of money where you stay, he owns that place, he can come and go as he pleases. Don't accept if there is a figure you want to put that is higher than food than. Because me, I was only asking for actually someone who advised me, she said, just get medical and school fees. And because he was young at the time, there was also food.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

To be had, diapers and things. He agreed and paid for all of those. And I said, don't pay for rent. But because I said, don't pay any rent or anything, I don't want any support in terms of cash. I even wrote down a whole list of what the boy uses every month and presented and said, this is the list, I will pay half. So because of how I came, I think he was just blinded and just agreed to everything. He said, all right, but he had also wanted to include. But I. That money of rent. I. I inflated some bills. Yeah, that's one. That one. I will not pretend I inflated some bills. And I also put a clause in the. Because this is a discussion of serving my lawyer. Yeah. And so I put the clothes in. And I think he thought it was to. For my benefit, but it was really for his benefit for us to review every year.

[Barack]

Right.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

To review every year.

[Barack]

Right.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

But the only thing that goes up is school fees, so that one's not being touched. The boy starts to feed to. And you know when children are young because they stammer with their mothers. But as the boy grew, we started 50 50. So even money for food is no longer there. So now I'm putting those in my budget. So the budget. My budget changed as my son grew older. And we didn't even ever have to go back to court to have those discussions.

[Barack]

There were discussions.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

There were discussions we could have again because I had humbled myself.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So it's something I'll come and say, you know what? T doesn't wear diapers anymore. So that goes off the list. You don't have to give me that money anymore. That goes off the list. Tesa doesn't have formula anymore, so we're not doing that anymore. That goes off the list. But now he's eating proper food, but that food is cheaper. So me, I would constantly have conversations that actually reduced his financial burden. That was it. And. But that was the truth. So now. And then when it became a 5050 arrangement, we stopped. There's no money. And now I have medical.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I always have medical. So we only agreed that in the event that I lose my medical, then. Yeah. Because I even use his medical. I use them interchangeably. He has medical. I have medical insurance, so I can use whichever I need at whatever time. It doesn't matter. Just that his is more accessible. My medical at the bank, you have to take. And it's a bigger process. So I'm. I usually actually would use his. And I was like, yes, that's all right. So it's just school fees that he pays now because we kind of have. Yeah, it's. It's now just parenting. Yeah, yeah, it's just parenting. And if I'm being really honest again, I think my financial independence and security allows me to think about other things and not these small, small matters, because I know women with the same financial status that I am that would still fight for and say, you must do more. You must give me more. I want more.

[Barack]

But I, I, it was not a thing for you.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

It's not a thing for me also. I have one child. Yes.

[Barack]

So it's not like, like, you know,

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Africans like children, and I don't understand why they like children. You know, in the past, children were actually a financial resource. They were labor.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Because in other generations had land, they had factors of production, they had land, and they needed children to work on their land, to provide for the family.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

But now you're there in Tagore Apartments, in Sunset Apartments. But you're boasting of 13 children. What are the 13 children there for? And you are still the same African parent who is saying, the money I make is mine for myself. I'm not giving money to my children. Let them also suffer for their own. So why are you having them? I don't understand it. So for me, I have one child.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

And my employer pays me really well over time. Bank of Uganda employed me in 2008.

[Barack]

So you've been there.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I've been there 18 years. This year will be 18 years. And that amount has risen exponentially. So I don't need the support, but because it's his responsibility as a father. And you know what, Barack? It's good. I watched that episode where you said, me, my mother did everything because I never, ever want to hear my son say that. I want my son to grow up knowing the responsibility, financial responsibility of a man because his wife or his mother produced him something. If I am the one facing life and death to give life to this child that we are both going to enjoy, it's only me who can do that. Biologically, by design.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I'm the only one who can naturally feed this child, because I am the only one who can breastfeed only. So if I'm going to be the one to give birth to this child, to feed this child, and then also provide financially for this child, I'm sending a message in son's mind that women can do it all, which is not true. We shouldn't do it. We shouldn't have to.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

But you see, having to align that the fact that they can let them.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Removes responsibility from neither man. And that's why we have so many single mothers walking around doing also the financial work. Because men have been brought up seeing women do it all. Me, when my son, when the school fees comes, let me tell you, there's a time my son's father delayed to send school fees, and they called me and my son said, mom, we don't have money for school fees. You Pay. I said, no. I told him, that's your father's responsibility. If they mean taking out of school, we'll get out of school. It's his responsibility. Till the father called me and said, pumla, this and this has happened. I'm just waiting for these whatevers. I said, okay, sent the money. I asked him, when are you sending me back? And me, I want things in writing so that we don't have conversations. Yeah, I have evidence of everything. I can afford my son's school fees. It's not much money. You wrote, sent me a message and said, on this day and this day, I'll send you the balance. Whatever. I said, okay. I sent. My son came back. I said, teja, I'm going to go to school and we're going to talk. I did not tell him that. I covered for a bit and your dad sent me back. I don't know. I don't want to hear those conversations. I don't want. I want you to understand that this is a responsibility and that support should only come. It's a privilege, it's not an obligation. So me, that's how I'm raising my son. To know what his role is, to understand it and know that we all have our roles. I know we're trying to move out of a world of gender roles and be more fluid, but if we ever remove those gender roles, women are always going to be doing more biologically. Not by. Because the men want them to, are leaving them to.

[Barack]

No, it's by design.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

It's by design. It's by design. I'm non denominational, I'm non religious. But there's a reason why Adam and Eve were given separate responsibilities or punishments for those who are Christian. You know the punishments. Women to bear children and nurture and men to work hard and toil and provide for their families. Me, that's what I believe in. Those are. I believe in that. But because we are a progressive world and a dynamic world and we are growing, we must be able to support each other in both roles. I mean, if you're going to build the house or buy the house, I'm not giving. We are not equally doing it. You buy the house, let me pay utilities, you pay rent, let me pay the other things. You buy the car, I'll pay for the insurance on the car, I'll pay for the fuel. Because there is a job that I'm going to do that you cannot do. You're not equipped biologically to do it. So me, that's my thought process. That, yeah. And that's how I'm raising my son, to understand that. Excuse me, minister. Don't.

[Barack]

Don't you have a responsibility?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

You have a responsibility. Ingrain it in your head and just look for a supportive partner, someone who can support you. But, well, knowing that this is my role and you should appreciate that she's doing it.

[Barack]

I, I have a question for you based on something I watched on. I think it was, I think it's Joe Biden's podcast where there were.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

A number of couples there. And one of the couples that was there was a person who had been separated, a lady who had been divorced and she was there with her new partner or a new boyfriend. And when she got divorced, her ex husband, I think was a wealthy person or something, but essentially had given, had given a lot of money or a lot of assets in trust for the children.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Okay.

[Barack]

So there was a discussion that was coming up amongst them, this clip, the discussion that's coming up amongst them. And they were talking about whether, because clearly she had money.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Okay.

[Barack]

Whether the boyfriend could borrow money or take money from. Now this, this, you think you've seen it. This, this, this the lady he's dating now.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

And there was a debate that came about.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

It was a quick no for her, I think. Yes.

[Barack]

And she was saying something like, well, it's not my money. Money, money for the.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yes. For the children. Something. Yeah.

[Barack]

Or something like that. And he. And his, his opinion, the boyfriend opinion was something like, I mean, if I ever was like in trouble though, like you could give me the money or something like that. And she was, she said no, like it's not, it's on my money even. It's like for the family. So I was curious one, if you've been in an instance like that or if what, what your position would be on, on, on money in that context.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

The children's money. Yeah, it's the children.

[Barack]

So anything you're holding in trust for your son that is from your ex husband is for your son.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Even if it's not from my ex husband. Even if it's from me. Yeah. It's my child's money. Even I'm not allowed to touch it. Even I'm not allowed to touch it unless I have a plan. So this is the thing, personally, may. I think these, these words are nuanced. Her boyfriend. This was a boyfriend, not a husband.

[Barack]

It wasn't a husband.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So I think that's where problems come.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Because if I'm a husband, if I have a husband, I think I would be having a different conversation than a boyfriend or a partner, to be honest. But I'll still have the same conversation of if. Okay, let's say I have a boyfriend and not a husband. We are coming and sitting down and having a financial discussion on the table and saying what? Because by the time you have a trust, you have other money elsewhere. Elsewhere. So I'm not touching my children's money. But let's discuss. You have a problem. Can I touch my money? But we're still. We're not touching my child's money. If my child has money, I have money. So why are we not discussing my money that I can use to support you? Why are we discussing my children's money? That's their future. That's their money. It's not my money. It's not mine. It's not mine to give. I'd also be stealing. And that's not fair. That's not fair because we steal from ourselves every day. I'm a big, big advocate for saving. And I believe that saving means giving your future self money. And the less, the more you spend in your. Today is stealing from your future self. So if even I can look at it from that point of view, what about another person? So if my child has money for his future self it would be unjust for me to steal from him the same way I don't steal from myself either. I have in my saving, I have a saving, a plan for emergencies, I have a plan for retirement. And I have savings for different goals. Right, that I'm going for. For example, I have a friend who turned 50 who's turning 50 in April. And he told us a year ago that he wants to celebrate his birthday in Mauritius. So by the guys, I'm going to plan for a year. Yeah, he told us a year in advance. So every month. So I set up a saving goal in a unit trust called Mauritius. And every month I put in money. And because again as I explained last year I got really good money. I covered it very quickly. So my plan was to plan for that year. Actually I had said let me plan for seven months so that I can buy my ticket earlier before it gets really expensive. But I. I reached my goal and put that aside and kept it there. So ticket bought, accommodation sent. I just now I'm going with spending money but I planned for it. So I'm having a discussion with my partner and asking so boyfriend, first show me your plan. This problem, this mess that you're in now, where did it come from? Then let's see where that mess came from. Okay, how do we get out of this mess? Why aren't you? Because let's, let's be honest. People are usually thinking when they find themselves in financial problems. They're always looking for who can help me. They are never saying how can I reduce my expenses. Nobody wants to reduce their expenses. Actually we have a fincop survey that showed in Uganda when people land in problematic financial positions, 20. Only 27% of Ugandans actually reduce their expenditure. Others do many different things. Others go to savings. But another big chunk is always assisted by a family friend, a family member or a friend. They go for them. They think they are entitled, they get more money for them. They don't want to change their spending patterns. They want those to stay the same. That's why most of us get ourselves into problems. We say we are broke, but it's because you want to maintain the same lifestyle even when things are not going well. I mean, so I think that's really where that issue comes from. So me, I'm having a discussion and saying maybe look at the expenses that you have and see what you can reduce.

[Barack]

It is okay, you can reduce. Tell me now because I mean I want to try and get this in, in. I'm sure it will be difficult but in a summary, in summary of some sort. So I mean because you move up out, you get the divorce, you've gone through that process and I didn't think

[Pumla Nabachwa]

this conversation was going to be about my divorce. But anyway, so let's go, let's go.

[Barack]

Your financial, your financial story essentially takes a new trajectory because you start being more deliberate. What are the. If you were to look back and, and try and identify like three key turning points.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Okay.

[Barack]

Of your financial life to get you to where you are today, what would they be?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I'll say three and quickly. The real first one that made me start saving intentionally was so this is going to seem okay. So now when I realized that pumla, you need to change your behavior and put money aside, I was putting money aside out of fear, out of anxiety that I will never ever be in this position again where I don't have, I have to do so many things, borrow money and whatever, I, I so I, oh and by the way, I paid my mom back, I paid my aunties back. That was also part of my financial plan. So I had a good four years when I was earning at the bank and you know, I go, so My son was 7. I'm trying to now just backtrack back. Yeah, Backwards. I actually got a scare. I got a cancer scare at a certain point. And when I got that cancer scare, so what I was saving money for was that I never ever want to be in a place where I have. I should move from this place. And I can't move to another place because I can't. I don't have money. So in my head it was really just, I have to have enough rent. I should always have money aside for rent. So me, it was just keep putting money, keep putting money start in case anything happens. If someone asks you for a year, you can pay for a year. And that's what I actually used to do. So I started paying for my rent in a year. So I would save money worth a year and then also save towards the next year.

[Barack]

Right.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So I'd always have extra over. Yeah, over and above. And that I put aside. And then also extra just for extra sake. So what happened when I got this cancer scare and when I realized, oh, we are. You're good. Doctor clears you. I sat back and I asked myself, if something were to happen to you and you died, what would you leave for your child at this point except cash? What would he have of himself? That was one. Number two. I realized that every time I got tired of a place, I would move. I lived in four different five, I think, houses between that age of two years and seven years for him. So the first turning point was when I made a decision to build a house, a home, rather than move. Luckily, again, I was able to accumulate. I went, did the mathematics, knew how much I needed, and realized I had 50% of it. Luckily I work with a financial institution that gives us cheap credit, cheap loans. So I added a 50% from my employer. That was my first lesson in borrowing money. So that introduced me to dates, real dates, not this one of give me 2k3 keno. Real date. That house took me. So I bought a shell. So I bought the house with my money, a shell. And then I used bank of the credit facility to finish up the house that one and a half years. I built the house in about 18 months. Those 18 months, I. It. It's. It's. It doesn't make sense to a person who is struggling, who has nowhere to stay, nowhere to. I'm building. I'm telling people that I'm building a house, I'm building an asset, I'm building a legacy.

[Barack]

But I have no food for 18 months.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

18 months. I used to eat. So what would happen? I only used to eat lunch at the bank. So I'M not sure I've eaten enough, the one the employer is giving me. Because I didn't have money for food. My son would eat at school and it was cheap. Just buy bread, kids. And he was enjoying having the time of his life. We had a meal of chapati and beans. He liked that combination of chapati and eggs. You know, kids like snacks. So he was not really eating real food except at school. So we went through one and a half years like that. I didn't go out that one and a half years. I didn't go anywhere unless somebody was house taking me out. I didn't pay for outings, I didn't travel, I didn't do anything. If someone said, we are going, I'm saying, I can't, I can't afford. And I was just very honest about it. I can't afford. That's what shocks me with Africans today, that they just can't say, I cannot afford. They still want to go and live life the same way they did even when things are different. So at the time, so that was also another thing that when you have savings, you saved for a financial goal, but that's all you saved for. You should be able to have also saved for something else. Because now my whole salary, in my calculations, that even because. Because I didn't want to get more money, I could have got more money from my employer, but I didn't want to be overly dated, indebted. So I decided all my salary would be going in the house. You know, when houses are going up, they tell you a plan, but different things start happening. Money starts going, different things are happening and you have to pay for them, right? So that's really what happened. I. All my. My whole salary, everything just used to go. I had no extra income. That also was a turning point in my life that taught me it's very dangerous to depend on one source of income. Very dangerous. And that's when my mind started growing. So that was one turning point. It taught me different lessons. It taught me about borrowing, it taught me about saving for something beyond just one financial goal. And it taught me it. It taught me to be how I am able to reduce my expenses. It's possible.

[Barack]

Yes, it's possible.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I don't have to live at the same life that I was living. So that was the one point. After that, my life changed. I started saving for different things.

[Barack]

But now you're living in your own house.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Now I'm inside my house and the peace of mind, you know, there's that debate of build Your home or rent or build rentals and generate income. And I always say that debate can never be wonderful. Everybody does what they want. I don't think there's any standard practice or theory that demands that building a home is liability or renting. You're pouring money. But me, there was peace of mind. It just depends on your value system. May I had peace of mind. I've told you, for me, they taught me how to be happy.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Me, as long as I'm happy, I know I'm doing the right thing.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So I was really happy in my home. We settled in with my son. It was. It was nice. This was 10 years ago now, I think. Yeah, about 10 years ago, actually. Celebrate 10 years this year. Oh, clap for me. Yay.

[Barack]

Well done.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah. So after that, my practice of financial. My management of my money completely changed. I started to save for more things. That's when I started to save for an emergency fund. That's the point. I sat down and realized my son is 7 years old. And much as I had a great education at Macari University, I would like my son to have options. I would like for my son to be able. I don't want to reach a point when we are going for university and there's a course that he would really like to do that he's interested in. And there is. And it's not really being offered in the way nearby.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

And it is really what he wants to do. And then now I have to settle. So I decided at that point, when My son was 7 years old, to start saving for his university. And I've been doing that consistently ever since. So much so that because now I. Because of that thing I had about. I learned that rings wrong supreme that of having different sources of income. Because I was basing my strategy based off my income.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Then I started to get more in different other income streams. I'm a talker. I can. You can wake me up and I'll talk forever. So I started to make money off speaking engagements, talking, influencing podcasting. I started to just talk. So people now call me a lot to talk and they'll pay me money. So now my. I realized my money was changing. I started get, you know, rising in my career. I started getting more money. So I reached my goal faster. When I reached my goal, I decided, you know what? Let me be able to send this boy in college for his A levels, if possible. So I set up another goal for that because I had reached the other goal. So I said, let me set him up. I Set that up. And now that one is the one that's running against an emergency, a retirement. I'm corporately employed but. And I have, I have money saved that the bank, you know, pays for me. But I don't know, I have to have my own, you know, it's only a certain amount. I. I don't know what can happen.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

So I have to have an amount that is for sale and I have different financial goals, different things. So that turning point of building a house, to be honest, that's really what triggered a lot of my thought processes. But let me tell you, the one that completely changed my life and something that I know keeps people behind is just a lack of knowledge, nothing else. Lack of what to do and how to do it. Bank of Uganda offers a certified financial literacy course training. It does it for free. All you have to do is prove that you're going to use the training to impact, to influence, to train other people. That's really. So you have to be in a position of, of influence. Can I say corporate influence, not this influence of our money influence. No, no, no, no, no institutional influence. But the demand has. At the time I did the course, the demand was not that high. So they'll get, they'll get people from the bank and then also people from outside.

[Barack]

Right.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

But now the demand is so high. So every time I have this conversation, the bank gets overwhelmed with requests and there is a waiting list of like seven years now. There's just too many people, the demand is so high. So at the time I did it, the demand was not as high. So I got a certification. I am an economist. Barack. I have had good quality education. As I say I work my. I live to talk about policy to do with financial finances. But I needed somebody to tell me that pumla in between making money and saving money, this is the how to manage the money in between. Because we can get rich. We'll make money. That one, that one is a given. But what you do in between before you spend. Somebody literally had to tell me how to save the how save as soon as you earn. That just tweaked everything because me, I always saved after I put my money together. I put and then I saved what was left and many times it's not much left. So it was a save as soon as money, whatever money it is save budget and write it down. And when you budget budget for the whole year and then every time how you learn how to budget is come bring up a sheet of January up to December and then leave Put all your expenses after January, after February and then the next year. Live through that budget. See what you can cut down. See what you're spending. Someone telling you that you only spend 50% on your needs. 30% goes to once. 20% is investment. Just doing the mathematics for me and then having being able to apply that on myself. Just that someone telling me that you that money, you don't put it in a commercial bank. The only money that should be in a bank is money that for expenses. Everything else should be somewhere that is income generating, that earns interest finished. And there is a difference between low risk investments and high risk investments. You're keeping all that money in the bank waiting to buy land or something or invest in something. The only money that should be in your. But someone just telling me that it changed everything. My life completely changed and then I started to practice. Barack do you know that people walk around life anxious and they don't even know that they're anxious, but they're anxious because they have no control or uncertain about what tomorrow holds. But if you are able to tick off the financial bit, your anxiety reduces. You actually live a more peaceful and a happier life because being rich is not what's going to solve your problems. It's how you manage your money that's going to make you more peaceful, that's going to make you more intentional. And the day you start, it shifts. Something shifts at least minded. And I just became happier for it. I became a better person, a better woman, a better mother, a better employer employee. My mind is now I don't think about small matters anymore. You know, people with road rage, those are people who are not managing their money. People who react negative quickly to things.

[Barack]

The problem is.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

The problem is different. It's a money thing. They are just projecting. It's a money management problem. People who are quick to anger, quick to respond. It's a money management issue. Yeah. Have you ever, have you ever been even just you as an individual? The day money drops on your account, you study that day.

[Barack]

You're happy.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

You're happy.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

You even respond. Someone can even do you like this and it's okay. Just like. But that was not nice. Yeah. Now that day you don't have or something is not going wrong or right or you're waiting for a response on your phone for somebody to say that a deal has gone through. Let them even just say one word. You're already fighting. It's a money management issue. Most of us. And that's why you are not saying that that's why rich people don't get angry. Rich will get even angrier because they're not managing their money well. They live very uncertain lives, Very uncertain lives. And maybe something I should explain, you know, I do a lot of psychology, so something I maybe I would like to explain again because for me my goal is happiness. One of the things I've realized and I think I also saw it, I read it, more clarity came when I went through. I did an audio version of the book Psychology of Money that happiness really is the gap between your reality and expectations. The wider that gap, the more miserable you are. And what is reality? Reality is accepting that this is where I am. Expectations is, this is where I want to be. This is where I should be. Not even want to. This is where I should be. You see those people who catch flights, not feelings, sometimes catch feelings, sometimes just catch feelings and not the flight because you can't afford it. So it is being content. Happiness is just saying, you know what, I know where I am. I would really love to be in Hawaii, but I can't afford it. So let me walk towards that and I will get there. That is bringing your reality closer to your expectations and you will live a much happier life. You see the problem we have these days is we are too exposed to what other people are doing. You know, our parents could only see what was happening in the child or around them. So they measured themselves against their peers around. That was it. That's why they were happy. Their reality matched their expectations. But now as we are here in the life of. You pass a house and you're like eh, whose house is that? Then you also want the house. And I want, I want people to understand is people when they are passing, no one ever says I want to be the man who is living in that house. They want the house, that's what they want. And then they start moving mad in a way that they can be that person. Yes, you can. You can and aspire. But you, it means you're forever going to be chasing and because there is a level of satiety that you will never reach. You see the problem is once you reach meet your expectations, you realize your results, results have come. Then you set even higher expectations. And yet you are okay, you are happy, you are fine. And I'm not telling people that they don't have to aspire to these things. Aspire by all means, aspire. But take the time, just take the time, you will get there. There are people who will always be richer than you. So even when you get richer. You want to be richer because you've seen even richer. But there should be a level of contentment, of satisfaction, of fulfillment, of this is enough and I'm okay. Yeah. But I have freedom. Money has accorded me freedom, choice options. If so, I want to do it. But that money you're chasing should not. It should be a tool to help you live a better life. Not to a yardstick on which you should be measured of status and identity. Yeah, it should just be a tool to make you live an honestly better life. Because what we are doing, many of us is we are the perception. It's perception. That's the word. We are spending money we don't have to impress people who don't even care about us. Why? Because they are worrying about themselves as well. And the cycle continues because even those people who are worrying about themselves are spending money they don't have to impress other people who are worrying about themselves. The cycle never ends. So there must be a level of contentment. People have to learn how to be with content with where they are with what they earn and aspire for greater. But just live in the present. Stop moving like you spending on men. I want to ask you men it's a general problem because me I want a nice car. But for men they want now fancy women. The more a man has, the more women he wants, the more he wants to spend. It doesn't have to be that way. I always encourage many people. There is nothing sweeter than keeping your money that you've made more money in a nuclear home or in nuclear homes, whatever your belief system is. But when you get yeah, in whatever. Whatever belief system that you have if there are four nuclear homes in those four nuclear homes. But this business of now I have more than your eyes start opening to see further. Where else now can I spend? And the problem is that you get those women and those women now also have other children. If you hear the real stories of the fall of it is usually in those scenarios where people really rose and were rich, not wealthy rich and had so much. It just takes one deal to go wrong and everything is lost. Everything. But if you had managed your money

[Barack]

better, you'd be in a better place.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

You'd be in a better place. You still wouldn't be where you are but people would still be comforted.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Yeah.

[Barack]

I have two final questions for you as we wrap up. The first one is what is your happiest financial of money related memory that you have

[Pumla Nabachwa]

starting.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

What I've just talked about.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

The Beginning of this journey.

[Barack]

That was your heart, that's your happiness.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

My happiest financial memory, when I started, you know, when people are losing weight, someone says, oh, I started at 100 kg, 101 kg, and now I'm 75 kg. Do I. Let me tell you, the happiest they are is not when they're 75kg. The happiest they are is that move from 101kg to 99. That's the happiest when you start. When you start and see even the smallest of results. Because that small result is what motivates you. By the time you reach 75 kilograms, that. Yeah, it's. You've already. It's a lot of diminishing returns.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

You're not. You. You now know it's possible. Know you're. You're doing it. You're fine. So for me, it was that day I opened a unit trust account, my first unit trust account. I have my money in three and put money into it. That was the happiest I've ever been. Okay. Yeah.

[Barack]

Second question. If you, then this is in quotes. Financially fail, what has happened? If in 10 years you have failed, what has happened?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Explain that.

[Barack]

If things is. Basically, I'm asking, if things don't work out financially, what has happened for things not to work out financially?

[Pumla Nabachwa]

You see, I can't even relate with what you say. I beg your pardon. It is not there. Yeah.

[Barack]

Not possible.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

No, it's not there. Again, because why I'm saying this is because many people, when you ask them that question, they're like, if you're not financially successful. But for me, financial management is the success. And I'm. I'm. It's not possible for me not to manage my money.

[Barack]

Let me give a couple of.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I don't know, then.

[Barack]

So. So for you to, for example, a financial free. Does it mean the market has crashed and your money has gotten lost, or does it mean. I don't know, you have.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

It's definitely external factors that are beyond me and I can't even envision what those are. Oh, my God. If I financially fail at this point, it would. So what it would really take is a financial crisis, an external financial crisis or an external crisis that creates me to lose my. All my sources of income for a period of over four years.

[Barack]

Over four years.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Four years. That's mine.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Because my emergency fund. I teach people. It used to be six months when Covid hit. And you know why it was six months? Because at the time, an emergency fund meant that you have enough money to roll you over while you're trying to look for another job. So in the past it was six months. Covid taught us that it's now two years. It's two years is the time it takes for somebody to actually gain either come back on their feet or gain get other employment and even longer. Two years. But because I've been practicing this for quite a number of time, I've been able to do four years. Now if something happened to me that failed, I. I'm okay for four years. Personally, I'm okay for four years when my normal needs want and you know, just getting by with my son and it has to be you and your dependent with my child for it to be called failure. The place where I'm keeping my money would have to go down. Yeah. Where the fund is. Would have to go down.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

That's where I would have problems. Yeah. Yeah.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

And. But because also again, it would have to be an extreme scenario because my investments are also diversified both in where I'm now that's just keeping money. My alternative would be to sell my hard assets.

[Barack]

Yes.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Would that's it.

[Barack]

A bit more time.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Just give me a little bit. Yeah. Because now let's say that that fund of four years is no longer doesn't exist. But as long as. And. And even those assets would be very difficult to sell. Why? Because if that's happening, there is a crisis. Yes. So who are you selling to?

[Barack]

The world is collapsing. Basically.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

The world is collapsing now. We are all dying. And I mean, that's why I said, guys, I, I respect people on the street.

[Barack]

Yeah.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

Me, I work for government. I'm employed by government. Nothing is ever going to happen to the central bank. They are going to keep paying me. Actually, let me tell you, Barack, and they can't fire me. Why? I was awarded employee of the year last year. So I know that I'm doing a good job. I know I'm doing a fantastic, fantastic job. So they are not firing me. That's why I'm wondering what could happen that would cause the central bank to close. Because they are not firing me. They are not. I'm a done great employee they can't fire. So I don't hear you. Yeah. And again, because my expectations are my expectations and my reality that gap is not wide. So I'm not. I don't look at financial success as this thing of where I have to be on a yacht somewhere and I am doing everything with me, my life. I'm really happy with this life could be better and I don't mind you know having a house where I have a house now and having another one here and you know coming, going to and from work from Tagore living apartments I wouldn't mind in a better car. I wouldn't mind. But I'm okay where I am.

[Barack]

Okay.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I can see the dream but I'm content. I'm okay where I am, man.

[Barack]

Thank you so much for coming on to financially correct and giving us an incredible story and lends into so many different different facets of of money and like your story and just culture and speaking to so many different things. Really really appreciate it.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I really do appreciate the opportunity. I'm. I'm glad. I. I always hope that people can go away with you know. Yeah to learn to just to learn something better lives.

[Barack]

I'm sure they will.

[Pumla Nabachwa]

I hope.

[Barack]

I'm sure they will. Hey guys, thank you so much for rocking with us on Financial Incorrect Uganda Edition. We will see you two Tuesdays from now on the next episode of Financially Incorrect Uganda Edition.