Fire Escape Cast #100

Summary

Fire Escape Cast - Episode 100 Summary

Introduction

In their milestone 100th episode, the hosts of Fire Escape Cast—Dan Ryckert, Mary Kish, and Mike Mahardy—celebrate four years of engaging discussions about video games. Transitioning from their original focus on casual gaming chats, they embark on an ambitious endeavor: a 64-game bracket tournament to determine Fire Escape Cast's favorite collective game of all time.

Bracket Formation

Mary Kish takes the lead in organizing the tournament, meticulously curating a diverse bracket that reflects each host's top choices while incorporating universally acclaimed games. She explains:

[01:12] Mary: "We are determining the best game of all."

Mary integrates the top 25 nominations from each host, ensuring that even less conventional or globally significant titles make the cut. This approach guarantees a holistic representation of gaming excellence, balancing personal favorites with industry classics like Super Mario Odyssey and Tetris.

Key Matchups and Discussions

The tournament kicks off with intriguing matchups that highlight the hosts' varied tastes and deep knowledge of gaming history.

1. Mike Tyson's Punch Out vs. Tetris
   Hosting the first showdown, Tetris triumphs over Mike Tyson's Punch Out, sparking playful banter about the enduring appeal of the classic puzzle game:

   [08:32] Mike: "I think Mary and I could just sit round one out and watch you implode."

2. Breath of the Wild vs. Dishonored 2 vs. Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds
   Breath of the Wild faces stiff competition from Dishonored 2 and Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds. Mary passionately advocates for Dishonored 2:

   [14:09] Mary: "Dishonored 2 goes to the next round for sure in my opinion."

3. Super Mario Odyssey vs. Metroid Prime
   A beloved platformer battles against the acclaimed Metroid Prime. Despite Dan's fondness for Metroid Prime, Mary and Mike ensure Metroid Prime advances:

   [23:06] Dan: "I'll say Metroid Prime for sure." [23:09] Mary: "Prime."

4. Gears of War vs. Super Mario Odyssey
   Highlighting Nintendo's stellar portfolio, Super Mario Odyssey outshines Gears of War, reinforcing its status as a top-tier franchise:

   [50:33] Mary: "Super Mario Odyssey wins over Gears of War."

5. Divinity Original Sin 2 vs. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
   Mary champions Divinity Original Sin 2 against the iconic Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, emphasizing the depth and storytelling prowess of the CRPG:

   [256:30] Mary: "Divinity Original Sin 2 is on here."

6. Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past vs. Breath of the Wild
   In a head-to-head between two Zelda masterpieces, Breath of the Wild emerges victorious over Link to the Past. The hosts delve into the innovative open-world design and emotional storytelling of Breath of the Wild:

   [270:05] Dan: "Yeah, it's Breath of the Wild for me." [270:15] Mike: "Breath of the Wild is what video games were building towards since they started."

Sweet 16 and Finals

As the bracket narrows down, the competition intensifies with standout titles vying for supremacy.

• Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater vs. Elden Ring
  Mike passionately defends Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater, highlighting its groundbreaking storytelling and impact on the gaming industry:

  [265:17] Mary: "Elden Ring." [265:47] Dan: "I think Hitman's more uneven."

• Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past vs. Breath of the Wild
  The final showdown culminates in a battle between two legends. Despite Link to the Past's revered status, Breath of the Wild's expansive open world and innovative mechanics ultimately secure its place as the top game:

  [270:05] Dan: "Yeah, it's Breath of the Wild for me." [281:41] Dan: "Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater vs. Elden Ring. Snake Eater is the winner."

Conclusion

After a series of thoughtful deliberations and spirited debates, Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild ascends to the pinnacle as Fire Escape Cast's favorite game of all time. The hosts reflect on the diverse array of games discussed, celebrating the rich tapestry of gaming history and their shared passion.

Wrap-Up

As the episode concludes, the hosts congratulate themselves on reaching the 100-episode milestone. They express gratitude to their listeners and hint at the focus of the upcoming episode, which will delve into topics like global tariffs and potential international partnerships.

[285:56] Mike: "Thank you, Mary. Thank you, Dan. We'll be back in episode 101."

The episode embodies the Fire Escape Cast's commitment to in-depth, engaging discussions, reaffirming their place as a beloved voice in the gaming podcast community.

Transcript

[Mike]

Foreign. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Fire Escape Cast. It is episode 100. About four years ago, Dan, Mary and I said, what if we got together? We started a podcast for 99 episodes. We focused on video games and catching up. And on episode 100, pull the rug out. You saw where I was going. These tariffs are crazy. Let's dig into it.

[Dan]

Yeah, I know. Canada. Really? What the hell?

[Mike]

All our gas, much of our lumber. Probably some aluminum somewhere.

[Dan]

Let's dig into it.

[Mike]

What the hell?

[Mary]

Gulf of America.

[Mike]

No. Tonight we've got a fun episode planned. That's Dan, that's Mary. You know who they are? Probably. If you're listening, we figured we would do something different. We do have games we want to talk about, but we'll probably save that for next episode. Tonight we have the 64 game bracket tournament to decide Fire Escape Cast's favorite collective game of all time.

[Dan]

No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not Pussy Foot. This here. Yeah, it's not our favorite. This is objective science. We are determining the best game of all.

[Mike]

One of us only voted from, like, three franchises, so I think it is more favorite than best.

[Dan]

Mary. It's all Assassin's Creed.

[Mary]

There's some real tunnel vision coming.

[Mike]

I can't wait. Platformer is better. So we do know. We generally have a good idea of what each of us nominated. What did we do? We all nominated 25.

[Dan]

We were 25.

[Mike]

Mary's the only one who's seen the bracket, though. Mary, I'm pretty much just going to toss to you from here on out.

[Mary]

Sure. Yeah. You. We talked about doing this, and I said I would take this on, and I asked you all to send me your top 25. What I promised you was that your top 15 would make it, and I did that because I think no matter what, even if they're stupid or just incredibly dumb, worthless, I would put your top 15 in because they represent you. After that, there is some mixing in, some matching to make sure that we're getting a holistic look at games. And I even put in ones that no one put in that I feel like are worth discussing just from a collective generational. Yes, you should at least discuss.

[Mike]

You don't want to just ignore Super Mario Odyssey, so I probably want to put that in.

[Mary]

I can't not have some of these on here.

[Dan]

Why are you smirking? Is that like a sarcastic one? You're talking about one of the best games of all time. Is that sarcastic?

[Mike]

No, I'm just fucking with you. I love Super Mario Odyssey.

[Mary]

We will There will be some fightings on this one. But what I think what's interesting about this is that I've talked about that game we haven't started yet. I've put all these in a bracket, so 64 bracket, which will give us six rounds where we essentially won against one. I randomized it and it is truly random. I did not manually touch any of these. I hit random, I think three times to ensure that there was like no biases. Yep. And here they are. They make me laugh. But what's funny is that Mike and Dan have not seen this bracket. So when I read what is our first matchup, it will be your first time hearing these two games that will go up against each other.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Mary]

To the death.

[Dan]

And if you, the listener would like to see the bracket, we will have posted it by this point. I believe after this recording, we're going to post them the. The blank bracket. Well, I mean, the first round, you'll see the first round of 64. But yeah, we have not seen it. In fact, right before this recording, we're like, oh, how are we going to do present this? And it's like, no, let's. We should not know. I love the idea of like, it's going to be totally just chaotic thrown out there. But at the end the science will all fall into place and we'll know.

[Mary]

That There's a bit of a March madness to it. You can follow along if you've written your brackets at home. You can see where we did like a week ago.

[Mike]

Ask people to send in their sadness, their theory crafted winner and bracket. And by now I guess we'll know whether people need to be receiving some cool stuff. But that's neither here nor there right now because I'm ready to talk about a lot of Zelda there.

[Mary]

There are several. And you'll also notice I don't think this is a huge spoiler, but there was no final fantasies mentioned by anyone.

[Dan]

No, we're trying to pick good games.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. This isn't the most overrated franchise.

[Mary]

Told me multiple times that they think it's a bit offensive that we do not. We never.

[Dan]

No, no, no, no. We're just not nerdy. We don't cover nerdy games.

[Mike]

Yeah, they're fine.

[Dan]

It's games for ner.

[Mike]

Talk about there was like three final fantasies 10 years ago. Who cares?

[Dan]

Look, JRPGs are basically just visual novels and I don't consider that games. So we cover games. On this podcast, I put.

[Mike]

I think I. I nominated several JRPGs. I believe I might be wrong. Maybe Mary cut them matches.

[Mary]

There's some good genre blending in here, and I think people will recognize that. But there are entire categories or, like, very popular games that did not make the cut because they're not our beloved game franchises. However, I did try to supplement with, yo, this is a very, very popular game. It should be on here. And so I shoved it in there anyway.

[Dan]

So are there Mario games?

[Mary]

There's a couple.

[Dan]

Okay. And I'm happy.

[Mary]

Your top 15 is insane.

[Dan]

What are you talking about? I put so much thought into my. I did just copy and paste my.

[Mary]

Like, top 25, same game, like, six times.

[Dan]

You're gonna hear how they're different.

[Mike]

I'm looking forward to Dan winning an argument for a 3D Mario six times to.

[Dan]

I could do a TED talk about how different every Mario game is.

[Mary]

There's some great games.

[Mike]

Yeah, there's some great games, but a real loco man. And a real Of a tournament.

[Mary]

All right, do you want to get started? How do you guys do this, by the way?

[Dan]

I just want to give a quick anecdote here that Mike told us to play a game, and I loaded it up yesterday in case we were going to talk about new games today. And wouldn't you know it? It's another fucking game about rats in a fantasy environment.

[Mike]

I know a straight road.

[Dan]

What is the deal with these fucking rat games?

[Mary]

They know how to get them.

[Mike]

You'll. You'll come around eventually. I'm just trying to slip it in through various genres right now. Okay. We should say we don't have Judge Jake here. If anything comes down to a situation, if no one knows who Judge Jake is, we were basically tossed to our producer, Jake Decker, for game of the Year to basically bang the gavel and settle the dispute that really was not actually getting anywhere close to a conclusion. We are going to use the power of odd numbers tonight. In extreme circumstances, if we need to go to a vote, that will happen. But we're going to let things play out as much as humanly possible.

[Dan]

And I, you know, this is. We're all friends here. We've done this before. We've done the debates. I will listen to any argument. I will not try to brute force anything through. I think we will all be gentlemen and ladies, and we will. We will come to a proper conclusion.

[Mike]

You're so noble for stating all that you did.

[Dan]

I didn't want to say it.

[Mike]

You're so noble.

[Dan]

Noble, but yeah. Thank you.

[Mary]

But anyway, me, the hero and person who made the bracket, will place in the winning game after it has been democratically decided, and then we will proceed onward from there.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Dan]

Speaking of democracy, we've got some thoughts on this new edition of Fire Escape.

[Mike]

What is going on? Trudeau's like, I can't get a hold of this guy. Claudia down in Mexico is like, what about us?

[Mary]

It's.

[Mike]

It's all. We don't. It's all mixed up.

[Mary]

All right, first on the bracket, Pelosi versus.

[Mike]

Wait, she's still around?

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Dan]

I don't know.

[Mike]

I wonder if anybody predicted Nancy Pelosi.

[Dan]

Go. Who's your favorite demons?

[Mike]

I'm predicting Tim Kane in the final Four.

[Mary]

Okay, are we ready?

[Dan]

Yes.

[Mary]

All right, this is a 64 game bracket, so this is gonna be in. We're gonna be here for the long haul. Our first matchup is Mike Tyson's punch out.

[Mike]

Oh, my God.

[Mary]

Versus Tetris.

[Mike]

What?

[Dan]

No, you can't do that. This couldn't have been random.

[Mike]

Randomized.

[Dan]

You can't do that.

[Mary]

To me, it is 100 random.

[Dan]

Look, I love Tetris, but you know how I feel about punch out. And that's a hard argument to make. Versus Tetris, universally beloved.

[Mike]

I think Mary and I. Mary and I could just sit round one out and watch you implode.

[Dan]

You two.

[Mike]

I think it's randomized. I had nothing to do with any of this.

[Dan]

That was. That was my number one last time I did my, like, 100 games of all time. I did punch Mike Tyson's punch out. I don't feel that way anymore, but it's still definitely, like, top five for me. There's not even a point. Why?

[Mike]

That's why the tournament's going to argue this against Tetris.

[Mary]

The tournament was Tetris dying.

[Dan]

What are your thoughts on Tetris?

[Mike]

I've never been asked that before. No, truly. I don't know how to even.

[Dan]

I know I'm not a lot of opinions about games. Yeah, Tetris kicks ass. What is there to say?

[Mike]

It's just like the purest distillation of video game, like, fun and strategy. And I know there's people that get into a certain zone where no rats. You can master that. Yeah, there's no rats.

[Mary]

It depends on how you perceive the blocks. Because actually, I would say that the reason they're so nebulous, just like there's these slight changes in style and movement. I think you could interpret them as different animals or plants. So it's. Yeah, absolutely. What's a square? You know, that could be anything.

[Mike]

What Makes Punch out so good.

[Dan]

It is. What's the point? It's.

[Mike]

This is.

[Dan]

This is very. We want to waste everyone's time here.

[Mary]

This is the most beautiful.

[Dan]

I hate this.

[Mary]

I love this.

[Mike]

Is punch out gonna get knocked out, right?

[Dan]

This is why college boards use a seating procedure. Punch out and Tetris to each other. Not just first round but the first matchup.

[Mike]

Yeah. Well, speak your mind about both games before one of them is lost for the rest of the night.

[Dan]

Mike Tyson's Punch out is first of all, it's like the best looking game on the nes. There's giant big ass sprites. It fucking. It's the game that has age. The game from that era that has aged the best. I would say it's aged better than anything on the nes. It is pur reflexes and skill and fun pattern recognition reflexes. It's just. It is everything I want a video game to be. It was also this weird anomaly that Nintendo made a game with Mike Tyson as the. You know, like that. That's just not the way Nintendo operates ever. It's. It's a lot. It's fucking Tetris. Just put Tetris forward. Yes.

[Mary]

Like just to say, like there's no game that has passed the test of time better than Tetris itself. Right. Tetris was on the NES and it's also on everybody's mobile phone currently. It is the game that you go to. It's the game that old people, normally aged people and babies all know what Tetris is and can play it.

[Dan]

I would, I would argue that like I've never done it on a phone because it's just like I love Tetris so much and it does feel so just sticky and nice and responsive that like I've tried it before like when EA put out that first Tetris on phones. Like I don't want any muddiness in my Tetris. I want immediately fast drop all that bad.

[Mary]

I played it on like one of those like really shitty phones that wasn't even a smartphone, you know, where they could barely do anything. I played Tetris on that bad baby all the time.

[Dan]

Bonus 2. It's the one they say you should play if you like walk in on a murder scene and you want to like have your brain process it faster so you don't have as much ptsd. So I don't know if anything else in the tournament has that. So that's another.

[Mike]

Have they really said that say that like who's that?

[Dan]

They. I don't know, doctors, scientists, whatever. It's like, it's supposed to be a thing where it's like, if you see something traumatic, like, you know, a car crash or dead bodies or something, or encounter something super traumatic, that it's good to, like, play Tetris right afterwards because it's supposed to just kind of help your brain. I, look, I, I can't explain it, but, like, I've heard that many times.

[Mary]

If you need trauma, you can play Mike Tyson's Punch House.

[Dan]

It's incredible. It has injured me that your life.

[Mary]

Has been too good. You can add trauma from punch out. Tetris removes trauma.

[Dan]

Tyson sent me to, like, three months of physical therapy for my hand when I was speed running it. So. Yeah, it hurt you. It's. Look, I, I, I feel like there's an argument I could make if, if you put like a Mario World against Tetris, like a. But like, there's no way I'm getting punch out past Tetris, right?

[Mike]

No.

[Dan]

Mary's just smiling.

[Mike]

I liked, I like punch out quite a bit.

[Mary]

What a day.

[Mike]

I played it. You put it in my hands. You put it in my hands back a few years ago at your place in Connecticut, I believe, just to see how I liked it. Because you had a hunch I would like it because of my appreciation for, like, pattern recognition and dark souls, bosses, etc. And I loved it. And I, like, I went in with hubris, thinking I would master it that night. And then, holy shit. I don't think I got past the third enemy or fighter, rather. So, like, clearly it's really impressive that a game on the NES era had that high of a skill ceiling. But Tetris is Tetris.

[Dan]

It's Tetris.

[Mary]

It's Tetris.

[Dan]

It's Tetris.

[Mike]

It's timeless.

[Dan]

I'm not going to waste anyone's time more, but I got hosed.

[Mary]

All right, Mike Tyson's punch out versus Tetris. The winner is Tetris Submitted.

[Mike]

You so excited when you heard punch out and then I know, went off a cliff.

[Dan]

It's like the worst thing you could.

[Mary]

There's a couple of these. There's a couple of these that I'm really excited about.

[Dan]

I hope it's all of my babies.

[Mary]

All right, our next matchup.

[Dan]

Breath of the Wild versus the birth of your firstborn.

[Mike]

Luckily, none of us have kids.

[Dan]

Breath of the Wild.

[Mary]

We're all barren. Dishonored 2 vs Star Wars Galactic battleground.

[Dan]

I'm going to go pee.

[Mike]

Mike had fun well, fuck yeah. Actually, no, I already know it should win this. Mary, I don't know if you have thoughts.

[Mary]

I mean I think that Dishonored is one of the most beloved games of modern times. People keep coming back to it. It's very inspiring to other games. I think Star wars is Galactic Battlegrounds is well made, but I just don't think it's had the impact that Dishonored 2 has had. But I'm curious what you think.

[Mike]

No, I think Dishonored 2 is much better. Galactic Battlegrounds is super cool. I've had a lot of fun with it. It is. It's running off the Age of Empires engine from back in the day, but it basically just like blew up the Star wars universe. And as someone who used to like play a lot of real time strategy games and theory craft what Lord of the Rings strategy game would look like or Star wars. To have that in my hands was phenomenal, especially at scenario editor. I actually learned like very, very basic coding and pathing and making campaign missions in that game with Qui Gon and Obi wan. But dishonored 2, having just recently replayed it, I will say dishonored 2 is much better. But I, I will say dishonored 2 I think is the best immersive sim ever made. I'm not gonna go super far in because I'll have to argue for it again next round. But Dishonored 2, I just played it again two weeks ago. I'm still playing it rather I started again two weeks ago and it holds up real well since 2016, I believe it was. So yeah, Dishonored 2 is the game there. But if you haven't, Galactic Battlegrounds is on steam. You can go buy the whole collection for like 20 bucks. Go check it out if you like weird, huge big budget RTS games that no one talks about anymore. But. But yeah, Dishonored 2 goes to the next round for sure. In my opinion.

[Dan]

Can't wait for this honor two to get nuts. Stomped on by a T block next round.

[Mike]

Oh yeah. Is that. Is that. Yeah, I guess it is. Going against.

[Dan]

Yes, you'll know how it feels now.

[Mary]

You'Re going to start feeling it. I will say that there are a couple that I think will make Mike squirm that are coming up. But like this, some of them are easier than others.

[Mike]

I'm definitely. I'll save the Dishonored to true argument. Not argument, but like send off for next round rather than delay things in the first round.

[Mary]

Fantastic. Well, would you like another Tetris gets Like, gets out.

[Mike]

Gets cancelled. As we're doing this argument, we find.

[Dan]

Out for being racist or something.

[Mike]

Yeah, like, the.

[Dan]

The Russian makes look bad.

[Mike]

It would be bad Russian guy. Whoever made it.

[Dan]

I think the game.

[Mary]

We got to separate the art from the artist on this one. There's no way. There's too many villains on this bracket.

[Mike]

Then Alexandria comes out against Gregoro.

[Dan]

This.

[Mike]

This is a joke for just.

[Dan]

I like it. I appreciate it.

[Mike]

Just.

[Dan]

I just watched that like, two days ago.

[Mike]

Yeah, okay. Sorry. Next.

[Mary]

All right, matchup. Next matchup. Wario, where Mega Micro Games versus Metroid Prime.

[Mike]

Wait, I. I also nominated Prime. So this is either Dan did you as well?

[Dan]

Yeah, probably. I mean, regardless, it's Metroid Prime.

[Mike]

There's such a powerless. It's the third matchup, and there's already, like, a fear that comes into Dan's eyes when he hears one of his games.

[Dan]

You start with, like, one of my favorite games ever, and I'm like, oh, great, what's next? And now here's another one of my favorite games.

[Mary]

So many, like, you put so many silly billies in here. Being like, I like this one. It's like there's real games that you're going up against.

[Dan]

There were no silly billies.

[Mary]

Then fight for WarioWare. Mega Micro Games. You dolt. Go for it.

[Dan]

It is the game. It is the game. I probably load up the most of any video game throughout the last 25 years, or I guess 20. It probably came out like mid 2000. It is the most instant fun game there is. It is the game that I put on whenever I get all these, like, new handhelds and stuff, whether it's a analog pocket or, you know, the. The. All these little gimmick things I get, I always just make sure warioware is on it. And it's always the game I play the most on it, because in any circumstance, I can just pick it up, play warioware instant fun. I mean, the whole deal with the Mega Micro Games thing is that it's. They're like. Like seconds long. You got to figure out what's going on. It's funny the first time because you're always like, what the fuck is this? Oh, a hot dog ran me over. And then past that. It's just actually this very kind of skillful, fun thing to try to get your highest score. It's. It's funny. It's. There's a ton of variety to it because there's tons and tons of Micro Games. It's. Yeah, I just. I adore the humor of it. The idea of wario just being greedy and being like, oh, games are big. I'm just gonna make a bunch of shitty, tiny games and then you're just playing through it like the lore to this like little minigame collection. Yeah. Do either you play warioware at all?

[Mike]

I. I've enjoyed them, like as one off experiences. I'm not a devotee by any means. I actually, I played. The most I played was with you at when you showed me the. Not the most recent ones.

[Dan]

Yeah, no, it was the first.

[Mike]

We were doing the squats.

[Dan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

And then people were like getting mad at me that I wasn't stopping you. As if I have power over what you do with your body.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I'm pro choice.

[Dan]

It is. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. I love so many old games and I play so many retro games. I don't load up Link to the Past or even like Mario World as much as I load up warioware every single year for the last couple decades.

[Mike]

I'm gonna keep that in my back pocket for tonight. Remember, you don't load up Mario World or Link to the Past.

[Mary]

You have the right to remain silent. But he's just talking about a game that's already dead.

[Dan]

Is there no chance here?

[Mike]

It's up to you. I don't care.

[Mary]

One of them.

[Dan]

Oh, you don't care?

[Mary]

Like one of them constructed a genre.

[Mike]

Metroid Prime. Yes, I absolutely care. Sorry. Yeah, I. I think Metroid prime is.

[Mary]

Much better than Wario as a genre. But I think, I think.

[Dan]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Mary, are you saying that Metroid prime started Metroidvanias? Because that is not the case.

[Mary]

I think that Metroid has made Metroidvanias and I think that Metroid prime is the best in the Metroid series.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

But when I think Metroidvania, I mean, if you're giving it the credit of like the Metroidvania name, I think that's typically, like, there are Metroidvania elements you can talk about, like, you know, Arkham Asylum and 3D games having Metroidvania elements. But Metroid prime was kind of its own thing. I think the shocking thing that that did was that they were able to take those elements, the Metroidvania stuff, and turn it into a 3D game. And everyone was skeptical about it. Everyone's like, it's not going to be good in first person. And they absolutely nailed the feel of Metroid. So, like, it is really, really great. But I definitely would not give it any added benefit in terms of like genre stuff.

[Mary]

I think that, I think we, we do have the right though to say that it advanced the genre. I do think we have the right to say that it was revolutionary and this will come up in this bracket, which is not just what you like of it or what this group thinks about of it, but what did it do for games. Right. That's one of the reasons Tetris just destroyed Mike Tyson's punch out is because it was revolutionary and it really skyrocketed games into a new era. And so I just think that's something that Metroid series does. I think that's what prime did very specifically and I just don't think WarIowaWare is like on the same caliber, even though it is fun.

[Mike]

Also, just thinking from a game design perspective, I, I have to admit, before you actually put warioware in my hands, Dan, I was not like impressed by the quote unquote collection of mini games. Reductive view I had of it. Very impressed once I saw it all come together. I do think it's much more impressive that Metroid prime sustains like this really potent atmosphere. You get tools at such good intervals when you just, you think you've mastered a few of these areas and all of a sudden you get the grappling hook, you get the morph ball, all of a sudden you're like, holy shit, this just opened up a lot. That game's world design is great. There are parts where it's annoying. I still don't love the underwater stuff in that game, but like, they still did it fairly well compared to a lot of others for the time it's age. Well, yeah, I think Metroid prime just like I. I consistently point to that as maybe one of the most like effective atmospheres in any game ever.

[Dan]

Music lighting these lonely alien planets.

[Mary]

Perfect.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's fucking awesome.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

And here's the thing, even if it was just my list, I'm pretty sure when I've done these in the past, Metroid prime has probably been above warioware or at least close. So like, it's hard for me to even say that warioware is better than Metroid prime. So like, my vote might even go to Metroid Prime. I think I'm just pissed that wario, like all my shit's getting put up against the toughest shit. But yeah, I mean, fuck it here. I'll say WarIowaWare just so I can. It can have a representative here. But have at it you two.

[Mike]

I'll go Metroid prime for sure.

[Mary]

Prime.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mary]

Democracy.

[Mike]

I literally just considered. I never finished the switch remaster. I got. I want to go back and just restart it.

[Dan]

I've been thinking about that for a while.

[Mike]

Metroid prime trilogy is my every single year Christmas break. I. Except for last year. I go back to nice one, and three are my favorites. And by echo, I haven't gone back to echoes in a while.

[Dan]

I didn't love echoes. Yeah.

[Mike]

All right. What's. What's the next one? Another not been tested yet.

[Mary]

I feel like it's coming again. It's random. So I wasn't able to start with my heartbreaks. Our next matchup is Tomb Raider 2 versus Command and Conquer. Red alert 2.

[Mike]

I'm so sorry.

[Dan]

Tank is about to run over Lara Croft.

[Mary]

Oh. Oh.

[Mike]

You jump from one ledge to another. Oh, how are you gonna do that when a Russian blimps dropping bombs on you?

[Dan]

She's about to jump into a Tesla coil.

[Mary]

She can do backflips out of it.

[Mike]

Oh, is that a tree? Nope, it's a tank. You're on fire.

[Dan]

Did you time travel to kill Hitler?

[Mike]

Lara Croft just goes up against one Tanya that was.

[Dan]

All of a sudden, there's a smoker.

[Mike]

She just puts TNT on Lara's boobs and then dead.

[Dan]

And laugh about it. Laugh about it, and then swim away.

[Mike]

But anyway, what's good about Tomb Raider 2? Because I haven't played that game in a while.

[Mary]

So much lore in it. She goes to Italy. She's having fun out there.

[Dan]

You know, where Command and Conquer goes.

[Mike]

To the past to kill Hitler.

[Mary]

Listen, Hitler can't be the reason games win or not win. We have to have more reasoning than whether or not you kill Hitler.

[Mike]

Okay, fair enough.

[Dan]

We had other things we were saying.

[Mary]

No, that's all I heard.

[Mike]

Did I mention that there's a woman who looks kind of like Lara Croft who runs around and puts C4 on buildings and blows them up, which is.

[Dan]

The coolest unit in the game.

[Mike]

Yeah. And you can have, like, as many of them as you want if you have the resources.

[Dan]

You can take out a whole enemy base if you just swim up behind it and just set bombs on everything.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Fucking cool.

[Mary]

There's, like, really good platform.

[Mike]

This is Tomb Raider 2 from the 90s, right? Not Rise of the Tomb Raider.

[Mary]

No, it is not Rise of the Tomb Raider.

[Dan]

These are the old bad ones. Yeah.

[Mike]

I would actually argue for Rise of the Tomb Raider.

[Mary]

I found that the original ones, even though they had some errors, were really motivating, especially for, like, Female protagonists in games. I know Metroid prime was just on here, but if that wasn't just before, this would have been a really good argument for Tomb Raider 2, which is unfortunate for my timing, but I think it's a really good story arc as well. She goes through a lot of shit. The. Again, it's just more of like the platforming puzzles of its time were like, really iconic and I don't know, I just think she deserved to be on here. I'm in trouble, aren't I?

[Mike]

No doubt. She's a cool character at all. She's awesome. And I came around very hard on Tomb Raider with the reboot trilogy.

[Mary]

The coolest character in. In Command and Conquer, Red Alert.

[Mike]

Tanya. There's also a dude who just commands an entire, like, mind control army who can take everybody else's units. Yeah. Yuri in the expansion, there's. Is there anybody on the Russian side.

[Dan]

That'S like, is it James Earl Jones on the. On the American side?

[Mike]

Something like that. He's in Red Alert one, I thought.

[Dan]

Really? Okay, well, either way.

[Mike]

I mean, either way, it's not.

[Dan]

It's definitely not the story.

[Mike]

The series attracts big stars is what we're saying.

[Dan]

But. But the thing that I think, Mike, that we love about it is the commanding and the conquering more so than the characters and the story. Although it's a fun wrapping for a great rts. But I think we'll have more of a chance to talk about its strengths in the next round. Right?

[Mary]

I'm not going to push this one. So I'm going to agree that the answer and the winner here is Command and Conquer Red Alert too. I do have, like, strong arguments probably for later, but I don't think this one is winnable. And I also think it's not. And I also think, like, there ain't no way she's going to take on these other games that are winners. Right?

[Mike]

Wait, wait, wait. Is it going to be Red Alert 2 versus Metroid prime now?

[Mary]

I'm. Hold on. We'll get there.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Dan]

Sorry.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Mary]

We'll get there, but. Yeah. Brutal.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

This is what a bracket is. I know, Dan, if you like brutal. Let's get to our next matchup.

[Mike]

Oh, God.

[Mary]

Our next game. Matchup. Totally random. Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater vs Do this.

[Dan]

Don't do this.

[Mary]

Minecraft.

[Mike]

I thought. I thought you're gonna say, like, Metal Gear Solid two.

[Dan]

What are we.

[Mary]

I mean, it could happen. Are we really not even gonna have this discussion? Minecraft is like one of the most iconic games for Us of modern generation. It's the number one game.

[Dan]

It's good.

[Mary]

It's the number one.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Dan]

I started this.

[Mike]

I'm. I'm technically, just to show my hand, I'm for Snake Eater. However. Dan, Dan. Just saying. Minecraft. It's good. Is the funniest take of Minecraft I've ever heard in my life.

[Dan]

To be fair, this is our list.

[Mike]

I know. It's just funny how many of us.

[Dan]

3. Like a big Minecraft head.

[Mike]

It's Mary.

[Dan]

I know Mary loves Hodge, but outside of that.

[Mike]

Yes. She really just never shut up. Shuts up about him.

[Mary]

Damn it.

[Dan]

She said the parties are great. Yeah.

[Mike]

She was like. She's like, best parties. Number one. Notch number two. Diddy, number three. No, cut that, Cut that. James, Jake, Jay, cut that.

[Mary]

I never said these things. I think that we have to talk a little bit about, like, you know, just the global impact that the game has, the influence of it all. I think Minecraft has made a lot of movement in the game space. It's turned the next generation of kids into gamers. It's. It's. Who gives a.

[Dan]

About these kids? It's us. Like, did you like Minecraft? Remember? What are your thoughts on Minecraft?

[Mike]

No, I. It's best game, not favorite. You. You called me out on that at the beginning.

[Dan]

It's our list. Well, I was being sarcastic. It's our list.

[Mike]

Oh. I think Minecraft's more important than Snake Eater.

[Dan]

Is not what the thing is.

[Mike]

I know it can be a criteria.

[Dan]

Fire escapes, best game of all time.

[Mary]

But it can come up. Because I don't think that Snake Eater is important.

[Mike]

Oh, my God. We are really fucking firing off already. I. Mary, I don't support what you just said.

[Mary]

Well, I mean, I just think comparatively, Minecraft, like, what would the world be without Minecraft?

[Dan]

I don't give a shit. What the fuck. I'm still waiting to hear anyone here be like, here's why I love Minecraft.

[Mike]

I'm not going to. It was Mary's nomination. I think Minecraft's extremely important. Let me finish. I'm not saying that's the criteria.

[Mary]

Can I finish?

[Mike]

But. But. And I think Minecraft is this, like, massive. Like, I don't. All these people who are obsessed with making this, like, fucking metaverse. I'm like, you already have one of the coolest little digital, like, creation hubs where people can go and just create whatever they want. It's called Minecraft. So stop like, fucking trying to make this dumb metaverse shit a reality. When we already have something that's infinitely cooler. Especially like doing all those gamespot half life charity streams when you would make the room and people would come make like crazy art and like little minigame levels while we were doing those live streams. Minecraft is like this massive canvas for cool shit and people have done amazing stuff with it. I've only ever played it for like 30 hours of my life total, I think throughout its lifespan.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

But yeah, Snake Eater is just this like operatic Cold war fucking soap opera with the coolest characters ever in the. One of the. Maybe the best boss fight in all of video games.

[Dan]

Go ahead. Sorry.

[Mike]

And yeah, it's for. Also at the time for the series all of a sudden to go from these tight corridors and interior close quarters combat where it's like, oh, infiltrate this structure and go do the shit. Oh, now you're just dropped into the wilderness during. During this again, like this huge like stakes, the world could end mission against all these like rogues. Gallery of incredible character design. And you have to also like adapt to being outside and using camouflage and like survival light elements. That was the first time I've truly felt like I was in an open world. Even though it's not really open world. That is the first time I was like, oh shit, I can see like video Games in 10 years from now doing some cool stuff with this.

[Dan]

I think it's the.

[Mary]

And they did. It was called Minecraft because it was the ultimate place that you could actually have an open world.

[Mike]

Shit, I walked into that one.

[Dan]

It's the perfect form of Metal Gear Solid because it blew everyone away in 98 when it was like, oh my God, it's like a movie. It's like I'm playing a movie. But you play it now. It doesn't. You know, the controls and stuff. People struggle with it. Obviously the visuals haven't aged super well. I think it looks cool, but obviously it looks old. Snake Eater and then two was way too complex for a lot of people. Again, I love it. But three was like telling this incredibly dramatic, awesome story. It was one that didn't require a bunch of very specific knowledge from old MSX games and you know, weird meme theory stuff from the end of two and all that shit. It's just a great fucking Cold War espionage story. Like Mike said, one of the best boss fights of all time. I also think it has the best ending I've ever seen in a video game.

[Mike]

Oh yeah, you fucking fight your. How do you. How would you even describe it? You fight your. In a field of spoilers for.

[Dan]

Because it is about to get a remake, but.

[Mike]

Oh, shit. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it's got a good ending and.

[Dan]

Her character is one of the. One of the best characters I've ever seen in a game, in a movie like. And the end. How that all wraps up is just fucking incredible. Look like Minecraft. Obviously, if this was the most important to the global gaming ecosystem bracket, it's Minecraft. But I think if it's us three determining ours, like, I mean, without a doubt Snake Eater.

[Mike]

For me, yeah, I would go Snake Eater as well.

[Mary]

What's your top? Metal Gear of all time.

[Dan]

It changes every time he gets asked.

[Mike]

But yeah, don't answer that. She's setting you up for failure later in the tournament.

[Dan]

Minecraft.

[Mary]

Oh, so you are for Minecraft.

[Dan]

No, my vote is for Metal Gear.

[Mike]

Don't let her twist you.

[Dan]

I'm not doing this. I put my vote in. It's locked in.

[Mary]

They're not all gonna get through. Dan.

[Dan]

I don't have to keep talking. It already has two votes.

[Mike]

You almost answered straight up too. For the record, Mary, because I don't think I actually did not nominate him. If. Okay, I want to clarify. I had seen Dan's list and I was like, there's no point in me adding more Metal Gear solids. If I was going to add a Metal Gear Solid to my top 25, it would have been Snake Eater. Snake Eater is without a doubt my favorite Metal Gear. I can say that because I don't have any other horses in that race.

[Mary]

Well, I'm gonna hold you to that and I'll say then that makes sense democratically for it to win over Minecraft, which is insane. So I'll go ahead and hit that as the winner and submit it.

[Mike]

That makes sense in Fire Escape logic, but I'm gonna do it begrudgingly.

[Mary]

Yeah. Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater vs Minecraft. Metal Gear Solid is the winner.

[Mike]

You gotta realize, though, you absolutely know that no Fire Escape listener got that wrong on their bracket. I think they all probably guessed Snake correctly. Maybe not.

[Mary]

They. They know the insanity of the.

[Dan]

I'd like to get a mulligan here because I just looked at my top 100 list and I've got Metroid prime at 48 and WarioWare at 26. So I've made a grave error.

[Mike]

That's Dan. Oh, wait, Mary. Me and you had a little conversation. Is this when we bring it up or do we wait till next episode?

[Dan]

What are you doing now? You have to bring it up is.

[Mary]

That for next episode there's like a good time.

[Mike]

No, Dan's talking about how his opinions change over time.

[Mary]

They do tend to change over time.

[Dan]

That's a natural part of humanity.

[Mike]

Yeah, of course. But like, in the time span that I'm talking about, it's pretty funny how drastically it changed.

[Mary]

I think in general, what we're saying is, is that when you fight really hard for a game like Snake Eater and you're like, this is like my most number one game of all time. Will also remind Everybody that in 2019, Dan had Link's awakening at number six of his game of the year list and said, and I quote, one of the best down Zelda games, end quote.

[Dan]

Yeah, let's talk about the remake. The remake is fine.

[Mary]

I don't hate the remake, you piece of.

[Mike]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Mary, no. Mary, read the whole quote. Read the whole quote.

[Mary]

One of the best games ever made.

[Mike]

Oh, no, no, no. That's read when you said it's one of the best top down Zelda. I don't have the copy of.

[Mary]

That's it. That's the quote. You sent it to me.

[Mike]

Oh, it's on it's giant bombs. 2019 Dan's List, you said.

[Mary]

Blah, blah, blah. The Switch remake fixed any problems I previously had with it, so now I can properly enjoy one of the best top down Zelda games.

[Dan]

Yeah, no, I think that's fair. Like, I think the remake, it did fix a lot of my problems with it.

[Mary]

That's the one I played.

[Dan]

That's still like, not one of the best. Not one I would have recommended, but it is the better version.

[Mary]

One of the best Zelda games.

[Mike]

Yeah, the copy, you called it one.

[Dan]

Of the best Zelda games, top down.

[Mike]

That's.

[Dan]

That's fine. I. That's not a crazy thing.

[Mike]

We'll. We'll save that for later. We'll dig into this at a later point in time.

[Mary]

Inconsistent at best.

[Dan]

I'm just a man who evolved.

[Mike]

I'm just a man.

[Mary]

No, you de evolved because you had. You had the right opinion before and then changed it to be worse.

[Mike]

Okay, so. So unfortunately, Minecraft is.

[Mary]

Is Minecraft lost to Snake Eater next?

[Mike]

It got eaten.

[Mary]

Stardew valley.

[Mike]

Oh, God.

[Mary]

Versus XCOM 2. War of the Choke.

[Dan]

Oh, Mary, we're gonna hurt Mike with this one.

[Mike]

Me. God damn it. That's one of my top five games of all time.

[Dan]

Oh, this feels good. This feels good.

[Mike]

All right, let me just fucking eulogize this thing.

[Dan]

Mary, we don't have to say shit.

[Mary]

You get a horse. It's so much fun.

[Dan]

Let's just watch a man die for a little bit here.

[Mary]

You can actually pinpoint the second his heart breaks in half.

[Mike]

Yeah. And I love Stardew Valley, so I'm not gonna be too upset, but I am one of my top five games of all time. That doesn't really matter. What I will say is I just played a. I'm. I'm toward the end of a long War of the Chosen campaign as of recently game is still absolutely incredible. I've been attached to characters in that game which for those who may not know, they're all procedurally generated. You just form bonds with them through the gameplay. What they do with their. What you choose to do with them with their skills. They evolve as snipers, as assault specialists. They. The mission design is incredible. War of the Chosen is I, in my opinion the best expansion in any genre ever. XCOM 2, I think was phenomenal. I think War of the Chosen came along and just blew me away with how they messed with the XCOM formula of building out the squad of procedurally generated characters hunting these different bosses throughout incredible missions. They added the new, the Lost, these zombies that you were fighting. So there's like three warring factions basically outfitting these soldiers, getting attached to them, sending them on missions, dreading sending your best ones on like Mission Impossible type scenarios. Either they die and you remember it for a week and it hurts like genuinely. I don't give a shit when Sephiroth kills Aerith or whatever the fuck, but I genuinely care when like my Brazilian sniper who I named GI Santos after a basketball I like dies. I. It hurts and. Or they pull or they come out of it and then you. Yes. Or you come out. They come out of it and they're just. It's the most badass heroic ever because they. You kept them behind on the map and to let every save everybody else and they escape. It's just like in terms of being this emergent story machine, this like empathy for these characters engine. It's incredible. And I haven't even. I'm not even gonna like dig into like how good the turn based systems are designed and the enemy variety and all the different risk reward scenarios you have to consider throughout any given mission, in any given campaign strategy layer and. And the turn based battles alike. It's. It's I think my favorite strategy game of all time. And I still play it to this day. And it gives me joy even if it's not going to move forward in the tournament.

[Dan]

I vote for Stardew Valley.

[Mike]

Yeah, go.

[Dan]

That's fine, Mary.

[Mike]

I'm up for that.

[Mary]

I vote for Stardew Valley.

[Dan]

All right, let's lock it in.

[Mike]

Fine. It had to happen at some point.

[Mary]

You get to fish in it.

[Dan]

Yeah, I like the horse.

[Mike]

We're all like Icarus.

[Mary]

Okay? Everybody's gonna eat it on this. Nobody gets away.

[Dan]

It did feel very good to hear that, Mike. That was your punch out moment. Ah, yeah.

[Mike]

God damn it.

[Mary]

That's a good one. There's a couple of these.

[Mike]

The Pope versus Stone Cold.

[Dan]

What?

[Mike]

What's the next round?

[Mary]

I vote for Stone.

[Mike]

Which one is Star doing this?

[Mary]

The next game in the bracket is Halo. Combat Evolved versus Gears of War.

[Dan]

Oh, oh.

[Mike]

Ooh, the old Xbox.

[Dan]

Actually, a really interesting one.

[Mike]

The Xbox matchup. My nomination was Halo. For the record, I also really like Gears of War, obviously.

[Mary]

Excellent and revolutionary and so important for the Xbox's history. I just think only one of them has, like, a sick chainsaw gun. You know what I mean?

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Laser sword, actually. Yeah, yeah. If we're talking. If we're talking. If we're talking importance to Xbox's history, Halo is way more important.

[Dan]

Well, it's tough, though, because, like, that I was kind of prepping my argument in my head here, and I was trying to think of, like, oh, well, Gears has been the more consistent series throughout, whereas Halo had more downswings and stuff. But we are, to be clear, this is about Halo 1 versus Gears of War 1.

[Mary]

Yes.

[Dan]

Right. Okay.

[Mary]

Yes.

[Dan]

Myopic with that. Yeah, man. That co op, you know, we take it for granted now, co op campaigns, and obviously there's co op games on, you know, fucking nes. But on the level of this huge shooter campaign, this big budget, cool thing that was, like, built for co op, where it's part obviously, like, Dom. Go this way, Marcus.

[Mike]

Oh, I thought you could just as easily have been talking about Combat Evolved up to that point, for the record.

[Dan]

Sure. Yeah. I mean, Combat Evolved is fucking awesome co op, too. Like the whole Halo series, but it.

[Mike]

Doesn'T have the branching paths for sure.

[Mary]

But it doesn't have the branching paths.

[Dan]

Built for it in a way that, like, Halo, it's not like it was an afterthought. Like, obviously it doesn't by accident be a great.

[Mary]

You don't have to. But it is. It is, like, beneficial to play with an additional player when you play Gears because you can, like, you can snipe while the other person is, like, down on the ground. It's really sick to save your buddy like that.

[Dan]

Yeah. And I feel like I could see myself playing Halo campaigns and I think I have playing them solo. But for me, Gears, I think every single one of those games, the first time I went through all those campaigns, I made a point. I remember when three came out, me and three friends, we went to the Game Informer office over a weekend and we all just like sat in the same room and played through four player co op campaign. Again. That's three. One was incredible.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's three.

[Dan]

Two.

[Mike]

But, but why is co op inherently. In this argument you're making, it's like you're making co op inherently better than single player. Why is that the case? I'm.

[Dan]

That's.

[Mike]

I'm genuinely interested.

[Dan]

I just. Because in terms of just memories, like good memories of those two games.

[Mike]

Sure.

[Dan]

I remember just a lot more fun and laughing and kind of team strategy stuff going on when I was playing Gears 1 versus. I mean it's great in Halo 1 too because like that enemy AI was way ahead of its time back then.

[Mike]

Yeah. In terms of communal experiences, I would say one of my favorite memories in any video game is the LAN parties that I had with Halo Comet Evolved, which is not co op. But you were cooperating with the people on your team to take out other humans on in 4v4 matches.

[Dan]

And it was so fucking good that you'd get a bunch of. You get 16 friends in one place. I fucking love lugging CRTS around and Xbox boxes because it was that good.

[Mike]

And there's a nostalgia factor to that. But like I. I still genuinely think to this day, I don't know when the last time many people have played Combat Evolved is. That game is still my favorite in the whole series. If we're being myopic, I'm gonna really hone in on that. I think there are really good Halos. Outside of that, I'd say Halo as a whole package reached its peak with three, probably. However, Halo Count Evolved still to this day is one of the best shooter stories told. The way they build up the mystery and they use these like themes from Alien. Ridley Scott' all over Halo 1. Alien. From Alien. Ridley Scott's Alien 1989. Was it earlier than that? 79.

[Dan]

Alien was 70s. Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. 70 I. The way they build up mystery and it's, it's, it's in the like counter or half life vein of storytelling where it's like, okay, maybe there's a quick cutscene but all of a sudden like they're Telling a lot of story while you're still in the driver's seat through the first like whole half of that game is some of the best shooter missions in any game. Then you have the Silent Cartographer is almost like an open world far cry game outside. It's just the variety there up front. The weapon design, best pistol, best gun in video games. I'd argue maybe a top three. I love Gears of War and what they did with that movement system in the third person. The roadie running and the chainsawing and the like the crawling. It's impressive. Halo to me. And obviously Halo's controls when it first came out on the big boy Xbox controller, were they tweaked? They had to tweak those. But Halo just proved dual analog shooters could exist, which was crazy.

[Dan]

Grenade on the trigger and why didn't anyone do this before?

[Mike]

It's second nature today now because Halo did so much of that. But like I also just. The multiplayer in that game is the co op, the single player, the environments. What cool of cool fucking universe they designed from scratch. We take it for granted now that the Halo universe is a thing with a fucking streaming show. But like that video game was just for any form of entertainment. That was a cool world, a cool story. It just happened to be in a fucking like really fun badass video game. And I don't know, I've talked about it enough, but Halo Combat Evolve is still one of my favorite shooters of all time.

[Dan]

Everything you said is correct. And I think this is the first one on this bracket that I think it seems like all of us are like, yeah, they're both fucking great.

[Mary]

They're both.

[Dan]

There's not a clear winner here.

[Mike]

Yeah. And for the also last thing I'll say, Gears of the Gears of War, I agree, has been more, more consistent as a series. I do not think one is my favorite game by a long shot in that series. But. But it absolutely brought in a huge new vibe to shooters in video games. And like at first the macho stuff annoyed me, but looking back I was like, no, that's. That's part of like the. That's part of it. That's part of the tone. They were just. It was Starship Troopers.

[Mary]

Yeah, it was a bit Starship.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Okay. So anyway, I, I will just say.

[Dan]

Because Mary, I know you've got a lot of thoughts on Gears, so I'll just say quickly that I think they're both great. I was annoyed at times from Halo's campaign. I feel like it's a little More prone to just being like, where are we going now? What's next? Like, especially like the library and stuff like that. I think there are some, some dips, like the levels that aren't weren't amazing, but I played through both of them. Co op. I played through Halo 1 with Bonk right before the Pandemic and I played through Gears 1 with my sister Kayla a couple years ago and they're both great still. They're both incredible co op experiences. But I think I do remember as a game, Gears being, I think, I think my vote's gonna go with Gears. I think I like that game more.

[Mary]

I mean, ultimately, like, as Dan has said a lot, this is our list and so it's really like our experiences that will determine what this is. Gears was extraordinarily influential to me personally and got me into shooters when I actually didn't think that that was a genre of game that I could play or that I wasn't good enough to play. There was something about the COVID based shooting where I was like, oh, I can handle this. It was a bit of a blend between shooting and also strategy that I felt like I could wrap my head around and get into shooters for the first time. I also think it did some innovative things with combat, like nade tagging. It had some really iconic guns. Plasma grenades, torque bow which allowed you to explode enemies from back. Yeah. Nice chance you throw the grenade.

[Dan]

I know. Or no one throw those grenades.

[Mike]

No, you can just walk up and punch them with it too. And then.

[Dan]

I know, like spinning like. Yeah.

[Mike]

The Nunchucker is a really cool like world building design thing. I agree.

[Mary]

I mean, I think they're, they're both great worlds, honestly, because D Day or like Immersion Day for Gears was also very iconic and they had a really interesting worldview of our world. Like a, you know, our universe that was destroyed by aliens that were underground the whole time and terrorists. You get.

[Dan]

That's episode 101, brother.

[Mary]

That's actually how it started.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

And you, you fight inside of a bug. I, I don't know, there's just like so many wonderful levels that I'm like, this is so iconic. And even though I do agree it's not, it's not actually like my favorite, but I think it is just such a, an important game in the series and I think it's the one that kind of changed my life. So I personally have to go with Gears, but I have a fond respect for Halo and I know that Halo generally I think might be more beloved as A franchise. But for me personally, Gears these days.

[Mike]

Halo's got some stains on it, but it does.

[Dan]

Whereas like Gears, I'm sure Gears, I.

[Mike]

Think people just kind of are apathetic these days. Emergence Day could maybe turn around, but I'm not super. I liked Gears 5 a whole bunch. The horde mode in Gears 5 is incredible.

[Dan]

Yeah. I just feel like Gears has been a less polarizing series over the years. Like, you know, I played through every Gears campaign with Kayla, like in a row, back to back to back. And it's not like, oh, we got to this one. I know. You know, judgment is kind of a different thing. And I actually don't even dislike judgment. But I think Halo has more, especially post Bungie, you know, post three, it had little rockier of a history there. But again, it's not about the series. I think Hammer of Dawn. Was that in the first one. Mary?

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Okay. My vote goes to Gears of War.

[Mary]

Okay. All right. Democratically, I think it's done. Mike Giviny. Thank.

[Mike]

No, I said what I need to say. I think they're more polarizing because people care more about Halo, but that's fine.

[Mary]

Halo versus Gears. Gears wins.

[Dan]

Nice.

[Mary]

All right, the next one, in addition to Dan's heater, which is now on, is stupid.

[Dan]

I got a rug.

[Mike]

Look.

[Mary]

That is so small. What is that, a fucking 4 by 6?

[Dan]

It. It's 4x6.

[Mary]

Oh, my God.

[Mike]

No, no, for a. For a smaller room.

[Mary]

It looks like a bathroom mat.

[Dan]

There's nothing else would fit.

[Mary]

Get a rug, Dan.

[Mike]

I promise you, Dan, everybody watching this can say definitively a bigger rug would fit in that room. This is how space works.

[Mary]

Stupid, stupid man.

[Mike]

There, he's trying to. He's trying to use up our energy of argument on the rocks.

[Dan]

Centralized now.

[Mary]

They're gonna save it for this one. The next one is World of Warcraft versus Super Mario Odyssey.

[Dan]

Oh, come on. Mario Mario Odyssey charge you every fucking month to play it.

[Mike]

Case close.

[Dan]

My vote goes to Odyssey. I'll save the bigger.

[Mike]

Is World of Warcraft there because you nominated or because you thought it was something we should talk about?

[Mary]

I think it's something that we should talk about. And I, upon retrospect, realize that Odyssey is going to destroy this game. But it is a very important game. And so, yeah, it's going up against.

[Mike]

The best 3D platformer of all time.

[Dan]

But versus a game that charges you every month to play it.

[Mike]

I. I like World of Warcraft just fine. I paid the subscription back in the day.

[Mary]

Fine. Yeah, I like it. Just fine. You sound like a Southern defense attorney. I like World of Warcraft. It's just fine. It is, but.

[Mike]

Well, what. You've got, like, a Florida panhandle thing going on, when really what you want is Savannah, which is like molasses spilling out of your mouth. Mouth. I. World of Warcraft was cool. I liked my dwarf hunter and my elf gnome and my.

[Dan]

I thought, get the out of here argument.

[Mary]

All right. This is not. This is not an argument. I'm moving on. It is phenomenal.

[Mike]

It's Yukon versus Texas Tech.

[Dan]

That's what I was thinking.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Next matchup, Super Mario World versus Call of Duty 4.

[Mike]

Oh, God, that sucks. Did you. Who nominated call of Duty 4? Did. Just. Is that. Is that just on there?

[Mary]

It should be actually just on there. It might have been in Dan's top 25, but as I said, I did.

[Mike]

Yeah, no, it's. It should be.

[Mary]

Stop adding them after about 15 to 20.

[Dan]

It's my 47 on the last time I did this, so keep in mind.

[Mike]

I don't give a.

[Dan]

But this belongs here. This belongs here.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

Like. Like. Mario World is one of the, like, four or five games in history that I would consider a perfect video game. Nothing should change. And it's aged. It's just as fun to play now as it was in 1991. It is the peak of 2D Mario, and I would argue maybe. Maybe even the best Mario game. It's kind of between, like, that and Odyssey, I would say. Yeah, it is untouchable to me.

[Mary]

It is untouchable.

[Dan]

Yeah. It's Was in my top 10. It's my number five game of all time. Yeah, It's. It's a perfect video game. Absolutely perfect.

[Mike]

Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna argue Super Mario World over Call of Duty, but Call of Duty four, I will say it's no question that we're still enthralled to how successful and groundbreaking its multiplayer was. Campaign still holds up really well. I played it recently, but, like, it's. That multiplayer just absolutely changed the game in a way that for better and worse, these days, people are still emulating. I played the. I think I prestige to 8th prestige in that game, and I played. Yeah. But that being said, I'm not gonna. I don't care enough about it to say it over Mario World, though. Super Mario World. I like Super Mario World a whole bunch, but. But I'm kind of apathetic about both of them in a way that I'm not gonna.

[Mary]

Well, you have to. Sorry. Where's your vote? I'm confused.

[Mike]

I'll go Super Mario World.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Mike]

All right, Mary. If you care enough about Call of Duty, then I could be tiebreaker, because I don't right now care about either of these enough to, like, really argue.

[Mary]

So I'm also a bit apathetic to these, and so I was gonna kind of bow out and see how you feel about both of them. I've played both of them. I think they're both solid games. Neither of them are in my, like, top 10 of all time or, like, a game where I would, like, fight tooth and nail for Call of Duty was also. Also, like, pretty monumental for me is like, I think COD4 was my first time playing a COD. I didn't play a COD before that, so that was a big deal for me. Campaign's great. Like, it's. It's a. It's a. It's a solid game. Super Mario World is iconic and beloved and a fantastic game to play with your siblings. And so I. I guess I could lean more towards Super Mario World, but I wouldn't. I wouldn't fight for either of them.

[Dan]

Yeah, I love both of them.

[Mary]

A more passionate person should fight this one.

[Dan]

Yeah, I mean, I do love both of them. I've spent so much time with four, and undeniably, super important. It seems like we all respect it quite a bit. But, yeah, I mean, you could put fucking Metal Gear Solid against Mario World, and I would have. I might go Mario World, you know? Like, that's how much I love Mario World. So. What's that, Mary?

[Mary]

I'm just making sure I heard you. That Super Mario World is more impactful than.

[Dan]

I did not say that. Metal Gear, and I would not say that. And I don't know if I'm gonna have to say that right now. All I have to say is that's.

[Mary]

The beauty of brackets. You absolutely the fuck will have to say that at some point. It's just a matter of time.

[Dan]

I will cross that bridge when I come to it. The bridge I'm at right now is Mario World beats call of duty 4.

[Mary]

Okay. Sounds like there's no grave oppositions to this, so we're gonna go with Super Mario World winning over Call of Duty 4. Right. Next. Total War Warhammer 3.

[Mike]

Yeah. I don't give a. What's next.

[Mary]

I'm going Red Dead Redemption 2 me.

[Mike]

God damn it.

[Dan]

This is funny. I'm going Red Dead, too. I've always loved that game.

[Mary]

It's really funny.

[Dan]

That's a good one for Mikey, lock me in for red Dead Redemption 2. I was playing it today.

[Mike]

God damn it.

[Mary]

Mikey.

[Mike]

To be clear, I'm not wasting breath talking about Total War Warhammer 3 to either of you anymore. I've made that vow, and I have Vinnie to play it with now. But. Oh, yeah, I can't.

[Mary]

I can't say he's not on this podcast. He doesn't get a vote. Which one do you want?

[Mike]

I. Oh, God, I don't know. I feel like I don't. I feel like I have to talk myself into both of them.

[Dan]

While you're thinking, Mary, do you have a vote?

[Mary]

I would probably, because I know this is. This is Michael's Sophie's Choice, so I think, like, based on what Mike thinks, I'll probably support him in it. I played both of these.

[Mike]

When did you play Total War Warhammer 3?

[Mary]

I skimmed it.

[Mike]

No, you didn't.

[Dan]

I.

[Mike]

Shut the up, you liar. You didn't. No, you didn't.

[Mary]

When the war skimmed it. So total.

[Dan]

Oh, it's.

[Mary]

Yeah, for the third time. It's crazy.

[Mike]

You're gonna be. You're gonna be eating your words when my show blows up and gets syndicated. When we. When. When Peacock wants the show on streaming and you guys don't get a penny. I don't even know how that works.

[Mary]

I. I'm just saying. I think. I think you should probably get a. A heavier, heftier saying.

[Mike]

Yeah, I know. Just trying to figure out how to. I played Total Warhammer 3 much, much, much more than Red Dead Redemption 2. But. No, you know what? You know what? Total War Warhammer 3. I already said XCOM 2 is my favorite strategy game of all time.

[Dan]

War.

[Mike]

Total Warhammer 3 is right behind it. The tough thing with Total Warhammer 3 is you're kind of talking about all three games because of the Immortal Empires mode, but red Dead Redemption 2, just one of the most impressive video games ever. In its world design, its writing, it's. It's absolutely replete with flaws, of course, but everything else is just so strong. It's. It's a monumental game. Total Warhammer 3 is not better than Red Dead Redemption 2 to. But I. I right now would rather play Total War Warhammer 3 for what it's worth.

[Mary]

But I'll still where your vote is.

[Mike]

I just said. I just said redemption, but you just.

[Mary]

Keep sucking that warhammer, and I can't.

[Mike]

I can't so do. Okay. No, it's fine. No, you know what? It's red Dead Redemption 2. I've talked enough about Warhammer 3. If my past soliloquies about it have not gotten people to play it, I'm not gonna right now. So. Red Dead Redemption 2 is my favorite.

[Dan]

Oh, yeah.

[Mary]

Hey. Red Dead Redemption 2 wins over Total War. Warhammer 3.

[Mike]

I'm with Dan. I got some conspiracy theories going on about whether this. How random this was.

[Dan]

Yeah, she hasn't had to make any bad choices here.

[Mary]

I also want to say there's been. Well, I lost Tomb Raider. There's been.

[Mike]

Yeah, there's Tomb Raider, lost Tomb Raider.

[Mary]

I prioritized a lot of your guys's games because you guys felt so strongly. I also want to say that when it comes to the bracket, who got the most games in? Mike did, because I got more games in.

[Mike]

Probably had more outliers than you two. Right.

[Mary]

You had ones that I think are like, also just universally liked. So it's like you put games in yours where I was like, this is a game that the world we should talk about.

[Mike]

Okay, gotcha.

[Mary]

Yeah, that we should talk about.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah, like RPG stuff.

[Mary]

Because I saw Dan a little bit more obscure. I put in as many as I could, Dan, but I couldn't put in all of your crap.

[Mike]

Well, yeah, I had to balance out galactic battlegrounds with an rpg because Dan wasn't about to put an RPG on his list.

[Dan]

Yeah, I like Paper Mario.

[Mike]

Okay, that's fine.

[Mary]

Next. The next one.

[Mike]

Wait, sorry. How many have we done so far?

[Mary]

How many, like, I don't know.

[Mike]

How many matchups? Six.

[Mary]

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. We've done 10 matchups. 20 games.

[Mike]

I guess there were a few or it was unanimous, but we have a.

[Mary]

Long way to go.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Sorry.

[Mary]

All right, next matchup, the Legend of Zelda. Majora's Mask vs. Borderlands 2. Why are we laughing? This isn't a laughing matter.

[Mike]

Majora's Mask is the best game ever made.

[Dan]

What are we doing? It's so fucking cool.

[Mary]

But Major Mask, Annoying.

[Mike]

What's annoying?

[Mary]

You had to be there at certain times of day.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's cool.

[Mary]

Borderlands. You just get to play and shoot stuff.

[Mike]

Oh, did you nominate Borderlands, too?

[Mary]

There's so many different guns.

[Mike]

Borderlands 2 is a great game. I love that game.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's really good. I got it like a 975.

[Mary]

But, yeah, it's too high.

[Dan]

I regret that score. But, yeah.

[Mike]

The first words Dan ever said to me in my life were when he said. Or he even say it to me. I heard him across the room say, that intern keeps dying A lot when he had a level 40 character and I had just started mine at a charity Life Children's hospital. Anyway, yeah, I think Borderlands 2 is a phenomenal game.

[Dan]

It's great.

[Mike]

It's the best. Borderlands. But also Majora's Mask is just this intricate puzzle box of a Zelda that absolutely flew too close to the sun in its N64 version. But in its 3DS remake. And now you can play it on the switch. They ironed out like the two biggest problems it had. And now I think people appreciate it for how brilliant its time loop structure was and how it was brilliant back then. It was, yes. But now I think it's more accessible. Yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

In a series that's always been in.

[Mary]

A series that solid game.

[Dan]

Yeah. Borderlands 2 is age perfectly.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Randy. She's got that Randy pitch in her pocket right now. He's pulling the street. Randy Pittsford and Andrew Reiner pulling Mary. Netting Mary.

[Mary]

I think this is a losing battle.

[Mike]

Yep, it is.

[Dan]

Okay, just objectively, you've already lost.

[Mike]

I. I would happily play Borderlands 2 with you at some point.

[Dan]

Yeah, yeah. It's fun.

[Mary]

No, you don't deserve General Knox's dlz.

[Mike]

I just.

[Mary]

The winner. The winner is the Legend of Zelda. Majora's Mask.

[Mike]

Sick.

[Dan]

Cool.

[Mary]

Okay, the next matchup. GTA 5 vs. Elden ring.

[Dan]

Elden Ring. I mean, look, again, if this was like impact, like mainstream impacts of like gta, the online part of five, it was way bigger than I think anybody would expected. But Look, I like GTA 5 a lot. I think it's a great fucking video game. One of the better GTAs, I would say. Elden Ring is. There's just nothing like it. I mean, we gave it game of the year and didn't give it a second thought, it seems, you know, it's.

[Mike]

Well, you gave it a second thought because you were trying to push vampire survivors over. I had to talk about how one was sex, the other was masturbation. Yeah.

[Dan]

Vampire Survivors should win.

[Mary]

No, you didn't even put it in your top 15 Elden ring vampire Survivors.

[Dan]

Oh. Oh, well, no, no, it's just. Look, Elden Ring is.

[Mary]

I've changed my mind. That was just silly lollygagging. And now this is serious game time. And Elden Ring is important.

[Dan]

It is.

[Mary]

5 is iconic. It is. Is revolutionary. And like to this day, there are people who make a living playing GTA role playing as a job. It's so crazy that you can do that. I find it just wild to me the intricacies and the amount of world building in GTA that you can have your own mansions. You can play as a cop if you want to. You can role play as all these different characters. You can just play the damn game. But you can also play online with all these different mini games games. The. The heists in GTA 5 are God tier. Getting four people together and being like we're gonna. We are going to take this bank down as a group and then run from the cops. It is. It is just so much fun and I would rather play GTA 5 bank heists than I would Elden Ring. Right now. I'm gta.

[Dan]

Mike, I feel like you being smarter than me would be better at explaining because I'm kind of coming because I feel like Elden Ring has been talked about so much for so many years including by us that I would trust you to make this argument here.

[Mike]

Yeah, if it was Red Dead 2 versus Elden Ring I would go. Red Dead 2 and GTA 5 is undoubtedly phenomenal. Just the sheer achievement wise being able to zoom out and then go across the map and zoom in on a new character that the fully written character in an open world was incredible. But still nothing like that has been done since it's GTA online. That is truly the impressive thing to me as someone who went into the one of their careers to do like a biker gang and like how you can move up the ranks and assign your friends. Yeah, Mary's right. That honestly one of the best role playing games you could play today is GTA Online. But Elden Rings, how they took their craft at pattern recognition based combat of challenge of overcoming it. Of the sheer number of character builds that are viable in Elden Ring. In a world that has biomes as different as a place where you basically can just get poisoned from walking around to a place where they're just. It's built to house giants so you have to worry about fighting giants left and right. And then your build might not even work to account for all the things they did in Elden Ring I think is more impressive than the undoubtedly extremely deep detail in Los Santos. There's still stuff in Los Santos that people have not figured out yet. Like Rockstar. There's alien stuff, there's Bigfoot stuff that people are still finding new clues to today. But. But I still think Elden Ring how it's paced with its boss fights. Just the fact that you can go into a side dungeon that not everybody has seen and it's just One of the most intricately designed labyrinths of a. Some are like more puzzle box oriented. Others are just more about funneling you toward this incredible boss fight that again, like I might have seen bosses that you two haven't even fought. And again, just the ease with which you can switch between character builds. But the, the fact that there's such a high skill ceiling for like 16 different viable builds that that's a, like a. That's something that like, even character action games, most of them haven't achieved. The fact that it works in such a huge, vast world of that scope where you can eventually climb on top of these walking cathedrals and then go talk to a turtle with a pope hat to respec. And there's something about Elden World's Elden Ring's world that they took dark souls. And if you've seen those maps of dark souls, it's really about just moving downward gradually. But the way that they achieve that without you really realizing how far down you're moving, there's that certain subtlety to Elden Rings world design that after like 20 hours of playing, you step back and be like, holy shit. I've been underground in this underground map that's basically as big as the surface for 10 hours now. And it's just as nuanced as any Far Cry game that I've ever played. Elder Ring, to me, is more, More impressive. Yeah.

[Dan]

Let me ask this. You know, undeniably, the GTA online stuff is huge. And you know, Mary, you bring up the role play stuff and that's fascinating that, yes, people can do that. And there's a whole. It's so detailed and there's so much going on in Los Santos that like, holy. That can be a whole other game if you want to make it that. But do any of us do that? I don't know if we do. Like, are any of us doing gta? Mary.

[Mike]

Mary and Rob used to, but I.

[Mary]

Did for a long time. I mean, it is an older game, so I have to also, like, give it cred. We're talking when we talk about us internally. GTA was very monumental to me and my time at Gamespot and I. I played it weekly in a series where I. Every week we would come up with some. That was so much fun. I have laughed myself to tears playing GTA 5. It is so immersive and so goddamn funny. Elden Ring only really produces like one emotion out of me and it's usually like extraordinary stress because I am trying to live in this anxiety fueled Death World. Yes, it's very good at that. But I just had so many more ranges of emotions playing gta. I laughed, I cried, I screamed, I got angry. I mean, I really went with gta. And I just also think, generally speaking, I just had more fun. Whereas Elden Ring, I do agree. I actually think it's more impressive. I think it is perfectly executed. But we're just talking about often what it is that brings us joy to play, like we get excited about. And while I think Elden Ring is expertly constructed and genius, I think GTA is the sandbox I wish to play in all the time. And I just think it's. It's incredible. So I. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm going to survive this. But GTA is the game for me. Yeah.

[Dan]

Yeah. I mean, it's. And I get the argument it's. It's one of the greats, but, yeah, I'm going with Elden Ring for mine.

[Mike]

Yeah. Michael Elden Ring as well. But GTA 5 is GTA Online especially is rad.

[Mary]

Elden Ring wins over GTA 5. Next. Super Mario Galaxy 2 versus Rocket League.

[Mike]

Did you also. No. This is a genuine question. Is this the only galaxy here, or did you do both?

[Dan]

I probably put Galaxy One on.

[Mike]

Okay. Because I'm just curious. Okay. Yeah, go. Go for it.

[Dan]

Okay, look, Mike. What are you voting?

[Mike]

Rocket League.

[Dan]

Okay, look, I'm not gonna waste breath.

[Mike]

Rocket League wins the tournament. No, just joking.

[Dan]

I get to talk about other Mario games.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

I'm not going to waste my breath. Put Rocket league forward. Galaxy 2 is great. Takes all the things that were great about one as a nice overworld system and everything. I think it has less of the motion bullshit that the first one had. It's great, but I don't need to. I don't need to sing its praises. It's. It's fine. Rocket League's very good, too.

[Mary]

The winner is Rocket League. You did not put Super Mario Galaxy 1 on here. This is the only Super Mario Galaxy.

[Dan]

But there are other Mario games.

[Mike]

Yes.

[Mary]

No, that's it. We're out.

[Dan]

I just.

[Mary]

Rocket League.

[Dan]

There's no use. Yeah, just put it forward.

[Mary]

Next. Team Fortress 2 versus Mario Party 2.

[Dan]

I tried to get Team Fortress 2 to run on my computer for so long because it seemed so fun and it wouldn't run on my E Machines. So. Mario party two. Two.

[Mary]

It's not my fault. You were like, Team Fortress 2 is one of the greatest games of all time.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

I'm gonna lose this, aren't I.

[Mary]

It's such a good.

[Mike]

Maybe go to bat for Mario Party two.

[Dan]

I just don't really hear you talk about team. I don't think you've ever talked about Team Fortress.

[Mary]

He was a child.

[Mike]

I play a lot of Team Fortress. I absolutely love Team Fortress 2. It's just there are better variations of Team Fortress 2 in my opinion now, but they exist because Team Fort 2 laid the foundation for hero shooters.

[Dan]

Mario Party 2 is the best. Mario Party. There's plenty on the Internet. There's plenty on the Internet of me doing Mario Party. You know how I feel? Move your little, little whatever game forward. That's fine. All you rich kids with your computers and your Internet.

[Mike]

Yeah. There's no Internet outside of Kansas City.

[Dan]

Until recently.

[Mary]

I believe that your reason for liking another game is that you just couldn't play Team Fortress 2. And so you, like, looked through your blinds of all the other kids having fun and couldn't play.

[Dan]

I basically hated PC games until I actually had a PC that could run stuff.

[Mary]

So it's so good. Fantastic. Team Fortress 2 wallops Mario Party 2 to win.

[Mike]

She's really just driving the nails in. I don't know how that.

[Mary]

Oh, yeah, she's coming.

[Mike]

Oh, it's a she now.

[Mary]

Whatever wins is the she. Hitman World of Assassination versus Fire Emblem three Houses.

[Dan]

Come on.

[Mike]

All right. Yeah. I love Fire Emblem three Houses. I'm not. I'm. I'm drowning that child. If. Wait, is that what happened in Sophie's Choice?

[Dan]

Probably.

[Mike]

I never saw. So it's a million dollar baby. Did they drown her in million. What happened? What's the one where they drowned? The one.

[Dan]

I didn't see it.

[Mike]

Am I making this up? Did I dream about this?

[Dan]

I've never seen a baby drown.

[Mike]

No, me neither. Outside of a movie.

[Mary]

Dan, why would you even say that?

[Dan]

Because I'm saying I have not seen this.

[Mary]

I've never seen.

[Mike]

I'm thinking of the Nirvana album cover. Oh, yeah.

[Dan]

He was just swimming for money.

[Mike]

Yeah. No, I. I absolutely. I love Fire Emblem three Houses, but I love Hitman World Assassination. Hitman World Assassination is like. If you want. If you want to see what, like, good game design is. Just play those games.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

If Ally and want to know what we're capable of, just show them what IO has made.

[Dan]

Yeah, Three Houses is good, but it had way too much of that in between missions. I thought it worked, but Awakening would have been the one. But even that, like there's Awakening was awesome. A lot of anime stuff in between the good stuff. But Hitman, definitely Hitman.

[Mike]

Yeah. Agree, read.

[Mary]

This will be our last before the break.

[Mike]

Okay. Oh, God.

[Mary]

Oh, and just to be clear, no puzzles. World of Assassination wins over Fire Emblem.

[Mike]

Assuming everybody knows this.

[Mary]

Listener.

[Mike]

Yes, I'm assuming everybody knows this. But if you're listening, Hitman World Assassination is what they rebranded the whole trilogy into as one big package. Just so people know.

[Mary]

So nice. That way you don't have to make a choice. You just get all.

[Mike]

I thought you're saying I was nice for explaining it. It was like, I'm just letting them know.

[Mary]

No, you, you idiot. Yeah, thanks a lot.

[Mike]

So thoughtful, Mike.

[Mary]

All right. Witcher 3 Wild Hunt versus Metal Gear Solid.

[Dan]

You better not screw me on this.

[Mary]

It's random.

[Mike]

Oh, actually, honestly, I think this is going to be hardest for me. Okay, Mike, I didn't put Witcher 3 on there. For the record, I think Mary might have put it there because we do need to talk about it.

[Dan]

But, like, I acknowledge the Witcher 3 is a very good game.

[Mary]

Stop saying that. Everyone keeps saying it's a very good game. Making the bracket is an honor.

[Dan]

I'll say this. It is.

[Mike]

Getting a rug is so noble of me.

[Dan]

Despite that, a lot of, like, I know the narrative stuff. Like, there are a lot of things that it does more than your standard, like, action RPG thing. Like, you know, like the side quests and Witcher 3 do really matter. And a lot of them, like, some of the best stories in the game I know are in these quote unquote side quests. There is a level of care and thought that goes into that game that I can't just be like, oh, there's a million of these type of games. It is in its own league with that stuff. But Metal Gear Solid one was a sea change for video games. It was in 1998. You did not see things on that level that were. Everybody. Everybody was like, holy. It's like we are playing a movie. I was reading a preview, a magazine preview of Metal Gear Solid, and they had to explain that level. Like, you'll see the camera change, like in a movie, and. And the camera, the quote unquote camera will be in different positions. And it's. It's got voice acting. It's like the idea of a game being cinematic did not exist on that level until the first Metal Gear Solid. It changed everything. That level of voice acting, the quality of voice acting, the story itself, the gameplay. It was ambitious in a way that nothing before it had been in that type of genre. Genre. And I think it changed like we're talking about storytelling. You know, I brought up the storytelling in Witcher 3 and the narrative and stuff. It's great. Metal Gear Solid laid the groundwork for modern cinematic video game experiences.

[Mary]

I agree. Metal Gear walked so that Witcher 3 could run. And it really.

[Mike]

Metal Gear. Metal Gear walks over. Witcher 3 could jump in a jet and fly like.

[Mary]

It's true.

[Dan]

I Dan.

[Mike]

I. I love Metal Gear Solid. The first one, I used to. I used to say the games were in ascending order my favorite. So one was my favorite. And then two and then three. But that's all changed. But like, I think you're underselling a bit. How impact. I know you said the Witcher was impactful, but like, I don't. I really don't care anymore if a game is like a movie. I get what you're saying. The presentation was such that he was. Kojima, who has basically just always wanted to be a movie director. Director was making a game to look more cinematic, to be more immersive for the player. Presentation wise. Witcher 3 was not concerned with seeming like a movie. It wanted to be a really good role playing game where you're immersed in the world.

[Mary]

Yeah, it's a really good video game. You know the debate we're having.

[Mike]

Yeah. No. Witcher 3, like, I like how you say, like there's, there's some side quests that were interesting, but like other games are doing that.

[Mary]

Yeah. Good for her.

[Mike]

Metal Gear Solid absolutely did things before a lot of other games. Any other game did things 100%. But Witcher 3 did the thing that every other video game up until then was trying to do. And it's like, here's how you do it. And I think other games since have been better in terms of open world RPGs. But yeah, Witcher 3, the, the, the. The quality of its writing, characterization, the choices you can make make the. The world itself, the design, how they. How alive it feels when you're just moving through it. It's apples and oranges, open world versus very confined, meticulous space. Also, as someone who came to Metal Gear solid in like 2012 for the first time, I think the controls had already really aged out by then.

[Dan]

I. I'm not denying that. And it's not about which one has aged better, because. That's right, we can't do that. Fairly.

[Mike]

Sure. Okay, sure. I rescind that small part of what I just said there.

[Mary]

Then we'll strike the last sentence from your incredible statement.

[Mike]

Jake. Cut that.

[Dan]

I feel like it's like, we're comparing, like, Metal Gear Solid is Apocalypse now compared to, like.

[Mike]

I understand. That's what Dragon Heart. That's what's about this. This format. And that's why it hurts.

[Mary]

That's why it hurts so much.

[Mike]

Wait, what's Dragon Heart?

[Dan]

It was a bad CG dragon. I think Sean Connery was the voice.

[Mary]

I think they shared a heart.

[Dan]

No one's. No one's like, dragon Heart sucks ass. But it's just. Just like, look, I'm not gonna do the thing where I diminish the Witcher. I don't love the Witcher.

[Mary]

You can't.

[Mike]

Yeah, it doesn't. It does not need your approval.

[Dan]

I know, I know, but it's just. It cannot be overstated how much of a monumental moment for the medium that Metal gear solid in 1998 was. The Witcher 3 is very good, and it improved upon the things Witcher 1 and 2 did.

[Mike]

Did.

[Dan]

But it was nothing on the level. Like, I mean, metal gear solid one was like Mario 64. Levels of like, everything's different now. Because we didn't know it was possible.

[Mary]

What are you talking about? Witcher 3 had an entire micro game within it that became its own game as a result of it. People didn't, like, put minigames that became outside of it.

[Dan]

That shit. That's. I'm talking, like, changing.

[Mike]

I. What was. What did Minecraft go up against? Dan, you're doing a thing you do where you tell Mary that an argument is not valid because we're trying to get our favorite game, our. What we think is the best game.

[Mary]

Minecraft versus Metal Gear Solid 3, Snake Eater.

[Mike]

We're talking impact. Like, Mary talked about Minecraft impact, and we kind of like, shoo that away.

[Dan]

Also, like, I'm not saying just on the industry. I am saying I am also extrapolating that to be impact on me as a gamer at that time.

[Mary]

And we've taken that into account as we've decided that it's not as important.

[Dan]

Oh, I think.

[Mike]

I think Metal Gear Solid was. If we're arguing what's more important, it's tough. Metal Gear Solid, I think, is more important for video games. Yeah, I'll give Dan that.

[Mary]

I agree. I think. I think it's a very monumental one. I think that the Witcher 3 is just an incredible experience. He's also talking about, like, how cinematic it is. Is. I mean, do you remember the cinematic cut scenes in Witcher 3 after you had just like, killed so many people and then you sat down and heard someone Sing a very sad song and how much it made people feel in that moment. And then you got to bed a sick lady. I mean, that game gave you all the emotions. It was like a movie.

[Dan]

Remember having to shoot Sniper Wolf in the face while Otacon watched and cried.

[Mike]

Otacon's a little puss, but like he's supposed to be. Yeah, I, honestly, this is hurting me more than I'm letting on. I'm just enjoying poking Dan in the ribs because Metal Gear Solid's incredible and it's important. It absolutely changed things. I was not around when it did, but I understand in the context of video game history how it did. It's apples and oranges in the sense of what I said earlier. One impacted things coming after it. One did everything better than everything Buddy had been trying to do.

[Dan]

Sure.

[Mike]

I don't know. Personally, I, I don't know. I honestly don't know which I value more. I will just say the overall response I had to the Witcher 3, which I played at the time it came out. So again, I, it's hard for me to compare it to Metal Gear Solid was more profound in many ways.

[Dan]

I will say this. My first time playing Metal Gear Solid is probably no joke joke, the most memorable and impactful moment I have ever had playing video games. That's how strongly I feel about it. Like, there are a lot of games that I play and it's like, wow, this immediately feels really good. Wow, I love this game. This is great. Metal Gear Solid is the number one as far as like impactful moments on my life in a game.

[Mike]

That's nice. I appreciate that. I would say the same thing to Mary. Like, if you're trying to sway me, I don't give a what something meant to you personally.

[Dan]

For the record.

[Mike]

Yeah, I'm not poo pooing your experience. I, I have XCOM 2 experiences that I like. You could easily tell me, like, shut up.

[Dan]

That's the brutal part of this format.

[Mike]

I, I, I truly like. The more I think about it, the more I'm second guessing because I absolutely like.

[Dan]

I mean, ultimately I do think it is going to come down to Mike here because, like, you know, I agree.

[Mary]

I, I just want to express like a little bit because there was a lot of heavy push for Metal Gear and I just want to express like the vastness of the world of the Witcher 3 the Wild Hunt, and how much fun each individual space is in that game. You were working with kings and you were discovering that they were like pieces of shit. And you were like, solving crimes and people were getting killed by these like, crazy monsters in bogs. And you got to like, find lots and lots. All the side quests that you got to do in Witcher 3 where you were finding all these different people that needed you and you were just like, ultimately the badass dude that came in there and solved those crimes. Sometimes the people who hired you were actually the bad person. And you got to kind of discover that and. And figure it out. The storytelling, the immersiveness of that environment. Oh, man. The game system of having two swords and building up your play style. And you were like, I need to have this exact, exact different spice concoction before I can take on this rock monster. Which was so dope the first time you experienced those giant tree bosses or those rock monsters. I mean, just so many moments where you would actually say out loud, that's sick. I cannot believe this happened. The roach travel system. And you would often not even like fast travel. You would just let roach run and the music would turn up and you would vibe to the fact that you were the Witcher. Role playing as the Witcher was so much fun. God damn. That's such a solid game. And like, when I think back on it, it's just.

[Mike]

I don't. I don't think there's any right answer for me, because I wasn't. I will say if I was. If I was there. What year was this? 90. 98.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

If I was there in 98, fucking swirling a Syrah when Psycho Mantis like fucking read my memory card, I would have fucking shit my highbrow pants.

[Dan]

Yeah. When you have to unplug the controller, it's impossible. Of the best boss fights of all time. Let me say this too. Is that as good as the Witcher is at everything it's doing? It is a matter of it refining and improving a lot of things to a certain degree. Like. But the leap from things in that genre before it to the Witcher 3 is nowhere fucking near the leap between what came before Metal Gear and Metal Gear.

[Mike]

Sure. But I would still say Apocalypse now is a better movie than Citizen Kane, I'm sorry to say. Yeah, so that's. That's what I'm saying.

[Mary]

I still think Witcher 3 is Witcher 3.

[Mike]

Like Metal Gear.

[Mary]

Man. Apocalypse now is such a sick film.

[Dan]

Sweet.

[Mary]

Ultimately, we can all agree Apocalypse.

[Mike]

It's also like. It's also. We're doing like a. A Magic Johnson vs. Steph Curry thing here. There's a. There's probably a More clear answer there. But like it's different eras times like the impact of one can be outweighed by just the sheer quality other. I do think I have to give it to the Wisher three though. I do think it's a better game even. Even though Metal Gear Solid absolutely deserves its. Its.

[Mary]

The bracket has spoken. The Witcher 3 Wild Hunt knocks out Metal Gear Solid into the loser bracket. So MIT score.

[Dan]

Why couldn't that have been Tetris? I kind of don't like Witcher 3. Couldn't it have been something I really love?

[Mary]

Sorry, bud.

[Mike]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Couldn't. Couldn't. What do you mean couldn't?

[Dan]

Tetris. I wish something had to take out Metal Gear in the first round. That it was something I liked a lot. I kind of don't like Witcher 3.

[Mike]

I know.

[Dan]

I just stopped after the seventh hour of chasing flower pants around the continent. Whatever. The dandelion flower.

[Mary]

I don't.

[Mike]

You got it right. When you actually.

[Dan]

Dandelion.

[Mike]

Yeah. As soon as he thought about it for two seconds. You got it right. All right. I'm gonna go to the bathroom and get a drink.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mary]

We'll be back.

[Mike]

Yep. See ya.

[Mary]

I like calling you Michael now. I know that's you have done that.

[Mike]

I've been annoyed by Michael more.

[Mary]

Amanda does it and I think it's funny.

[Mike]

Yeah, she doesn't call me.

[Mary]

She does it with love. I kind of do it with like a bit of spice and.

[Mike]

Yeah, you're Michael.

[Mary]

You do it. You take out the trash. Michael.

[Mike]

And we're back. This is Michael Mahari coming back to you with Rats of Sexy Parker and Bathtub of Fire games. Top 64 games of all time. Metal Gear Solid just got walloped by the Witcher 3. And turns out we made the right choice there. I don't know.

[Dan]

I just involuntarily shivered when you said that. I'm not kidding. My body rejected that.

[Mike]

Oh, Dan and Ben Hanson are gonna be so disappointed. Oh, I'm just shouting out Ben.

[Dan]

You're just both wrong.

[Mike]

Hansen's face flashed through my head when I went to. On the break. I was like, I feel like he's gonna be really pissed at us for he loves middle.

[Dan]

I don't know how he feels about Witcher, but I know he's a fellow Metal Gear guy.

[Mike]

He's. But he's also like, really, really knowledgeable video game history. So I feel like he's gonna be.

[Dan]

I think he will be on this one.

[Mike]

Yeah, I agreed.

[Mary]

Anyway, it's not a video game history bracket. It's Fire Escape, Best game of all time bracket. And as we just mentioned, Metal Gear Solid was just removed in round one.

[Dan]

We don't have to keep saying it.

[Mary]

By the Witcher 3 wild hunter hunt. Our next matchup, the Legend of Zelda. A Link to the Past.

[Dan]

Don't you do this versus say something stupid.

[Mary]

Skyrim.

[Dan]

Oh, we're cool. Are we cool?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Are we cool? I have a lot of past good things to say about but A Link to the Past is iconic.

[Mike]

It's also. I don't think we need to expound on what makes Skyrim great. It's a great game. It's incredible. People keep buying it because it holds up. But like Link to the Past is one of the best.

[Dan]

If I lost Metal Gear Solid and Link to the Past back to back, I'm just quitting the podcast.

[Mike]

Yeah, you wouldn't come back. You made it a hundred.

[Dan]

I can't talk to you too anymore.

[Mike]

Yeah, no, yeah. Link to the Past is just one of the most well designed things ever. Game or. And otherwise. Yeah, Dan's. I feel like all of Dan's games get mentioned first. So then he's like it's random. It's genuinely random.

[Mary]

I can't. And some of these, I do think some of them coming up. I do think like you'll see some of his second. So it does. It does happen. But yeah, it's just so. It just so happens that all of his weird ones have been first so far.

[Dan]

Next up, Metal Gear Solid.

[Mike]

Link to the Past.

[Dan]

My weird, weird niche taste.

[Mary]

No, I'm just old.

[Mike]

Yeah, we've got different eras.

[Mary]

This would not be as shakes fist at Cloud.

[Mike]

I feel like we did represent some like different generations of gamer here.

[Mary]

Yeah, we have.

[Mike]

We just need Gen Z for like.

[Mary]

A month and for the record, like a lot of these like additional games to get us a bit more full circle were ones I came up with which I was like, well we have to have of World of Warcraft. I think it'll be weird if we didn't right. I think it'll be weird if we didn't have. And a lot of the weird niche indie ones that will come up I also know will probably not survive. So like I we'll see how we go. But it was an honor to get started through the first round.

[Dan]

It's so weird though because it's like yeah, we are kind of from slightly different, you know, age slightly. But also we have wildly different tastes in games. So this is Just a crazy.

[Mike]

Yeah, sure. I don't mean to paint it like I'm like 20 years younger than you. I think I just came up. I came up at a time I'm kind of envious that you again you were there for like Metal Gear Solid. I mean I was seven. I wouldn't have gotten that when I was seven. Like I. I also wouldn't have been.

[Mary]

Allowed to unless your parents were really cool.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean gotten it. Understood it or yes been allowed to play it. But like. But I. Yeah, yeah, it was a good time.

[Dan]

Yes. I'm glad I'm born. I was born when I did.

[Mike]

It's a really fucking good time.

[Mary]

Our next game matchup is Rainbow Six. Rogue Spear versus had Half Life 2.

[Mike]

Ah, that's fine.

[Dan]

Put Half Life through. I had.

[Mike]

I had Half Life on my list. Those are both mine. But I know Mary had Half Life at number one.

[Mary]

Oh, I mean Half Life is like.

[Mike]

It's the second best.

[Mary]

Monumental.

[Mike]

Is it the first? Is it the. Is this still the best first person shooter? It's between that Halo one for me. I don't need to get into the whole list.

[Dan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

Rainbow Rogue Spear is still like the peak of the previous era of Rainbow six where you're actually planning out these incredibly tense, complex tactical insertions with different team members. And that game still does not get enough love for how nuanced it's systems were in terms of planning how you could have four squads of AI. The AI for your co op teammates was. Or not even co op. Your teammates was incredible. Some awesome maps for terrorist hunt and for single player, varied objectives just all around. Probably the best like spec ops type game ever before it went to the Siege era, which I absolutely love. But yeah, Rogue Spear is one of my favorite games of all time. And I have fond memories playing with my brothers. But. But no, Half Life 2 is maybe still the best shooter of all time.

[Mary]

Maybe it's gotta be Half Life.

[Mike]

Take that with a grain of salt because I can't think of it.

[Mary]

It's gotta be. But yeah, I have a lot of good memories playing Rainbow Six, but I actually don't think I played. I played Siege. I think so. No, this one, I'm in trouble.

[Mike]

I'll be the first to say this one was kind of my like cool guy vote. Like, oh, this is my off the radar. I suck sometimes.

[Dan]

Yeah, okay.

[Mary]

Yeah, you went for the underdog and it went up against Half Life too. And now it's dead. So I hope you're happy with yourself. Half life to win against Rainbow six. Rogue cheddar. And now we are on to our next matchup. It's just a weird name. Spear.

[Mike]

It's a weapon, but it's rogue. But it's. But it's a Dewey star. Yeah, it's a rogue spear.

[Mary]

I find that a strange name. Our next matchup.

[Mike]

I don't have any response. It's not a strength. It's two fairly common.

[Dan]

Like, a couple words that I'm appropriate for military.

[Mike]

That's what military operations do. They take two. It's like modern cocktail bars. It's like, oh, Gurney and sons. Like, they just combine two random unrelated nouns.

[Mary]

Rainbow six, Gurney and sons.

[Mike]

Yeah. Like agent tall in Brooklyn. Every new restaurant in New York or bar is like two words that make no sense together. Wolf and tenor.

[Mary]

Actually, that sounds uncharted. Gin and tonic.

[Mike]

Yes. That's my second favorite uncharted game.

[Dan]

Play that. Yeah. Slowly drinking gin and tonics.

[Mary]

Okay. The next. Next matchup, Fallout 3.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mary]

Versus Divinity Original Sin 2.

[Mike]

Oh, come on.

[Dan]

This is gonna be bad. Completely Divinity.

[Mike]

Oh, I. I feel like I have the most. Where I have what's the. What's the horse in both races. But, like, I know Mary's divinity original sin 2. Absolutely. She never shuts up about it. I absolutely adore that game. But Fallout 3 is my favorite. One of my favorite open world games. Let's. Let's do it. Go somebody. Mary.

[Dan]

I don't even know what the fuck divinity really is. Mary.

[Mike]

Are you serious? It's Larry Studios previous game, weird RPG thing. I'm sure it's Larry Studios game before Baldur's Gate 3. It's one of the best CRP.

[Dan]

Baldur's Gate 3 ain't great either, so. Sure, go ahead.

[Mary]

Oh, Jesus Divinity Original Sin 2 really paved the way for RPG storytelling. You're basically, like, on this sick journey. You can play it with friends. You can also play this solo. The storytelling and dynamics at play here so that when you meet a character and you tell them that they're a really good thief, they can come back later and rob you. I mean, you are building people over time that will impact hours and hours and hours later down in this game. And you put a lot of time into building these characters and watching them develop and interact with the world. World. And you are truly actually developing the world as you play Divinity Original sin. The amount of different types of characters you can play as, whether you want to be a rogue or you want to be a witch that does massive aoe. Spells, it's the world is your oyster. And so being able to play around with the environment, do environmental based kills, zaltern based combat, so you get to kind of really think and strategize about how you want to kill your opponents. It's methodical and it's extraordinarily intricate. It's crazy the things that you can concoct. And again, this is the kind of stuff that like, made Baldur's Gate as infamous as it is. But I actually, the reason I put Divinity Original Sin in here is because I just think for me personally, divinity was all about that world building and that stunning storytelling that allowed you to say, I am a witch with a heart of gold. I work hand in hand with my sorceress friend, and we play lone wolf style and we just kind of burn the house down. Well, so in Divinity Original sin, you're supposed to play as four people, but in lone Wolf, you can play as two people that get one additional skill.

[Mike]

Gotcha. That's.

[Mary]

But actually a wolf Larian, So. But lone wolf style is like you're. Instead of playing with a pack of four, you're playing with like two or like less people so that you can actually get through everything in a meaningful way. Finding secret doors and hidden passageways. I mean, they were kind like, this is kind of the pinnacle of that design as well. So like you might, you might meet someone and they'll say, we gotta get into this old dungeon, but we can't find an entrance. There's like 10 different ways to get in it. So how I get into this dungeon and, and, and, and win will be completely different to the way Mike has done it. And they're both valid and really interesting and engaging ways of, of telling a story. And they're unique to us. I might have found a key in a bush because I killed like somebody and they, they led me to this like secret X on a map. And so I found this like hidden back passageway. Mike might have found C4. It exploded his way into the front and then killed everybody who got in his way. It's so awesome how unique every person's story is in divinity. And so it's really fun, not just playing divinity, but talking to each other about how they actually got through the same area, how different they are. But they're all really fun. I mean, divinity is like such a joy to play, you guys. And it's, it's, it's brilliant in terms of game design, how, how everybody can play it differently. I rest my case.

[Mike]

What's this come out 2017, I believe.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Okay. I was gonna say because this is the first I've like heard about it and I was like did this happen?

[Mike]

This red podcast. That's.

[Mary]

That cannot be true.

[Mike]

Coming from Giant.

[Dan]

But I've heard the name Divinity Original.

[Mary]

I'm sure shocked too.

[Dan]

Sure. Whatever. Like the the name of this game.

[Mike]

I Did you think Larion just came out of nowhere with Ballers?

[Dan]

I literally when I went to Belgium to go to Larian to cover Balers Gate 3.

[Mike]

Stan, this is not what somebody should admit as a video game professional.

[Dan]

Something about like your Larian contact will be like what the is a Laran contact. I've never heard of Larian before this.

[Mike]

Dan, don't. You should cut this.

[Dan]

No, don't. I don't have anything that I. It's just. I don't.

[Mike]

This is not my type of not deserving Gate three. And you didn't think to look up what the studio has worked on in the past?

[Dan]

I probably would have gotten around to it.

[Mike]

You did it. We were discovering didn't get around to Travelog stuff.

[Dan]

I don't need to know anything for that.

[Mike]

What's a Balder game beside. That's beside the point anyway.

[Mary]

I want that trip. I'll be the one that goes to that Europe.

[Dan]

They were all very nice. Larry and Studios. Everyone there was awesome.

[Mary]

Well, it's unfortunate this isn't the very nice awards.

[Dan]

This is the best game of Fallout 3 is great. Great. You can watch their heads blow up in slow mo. It's great.

[Mike]

No. So Fallout 3 was my vote. However, I don't care about it as much as you care about Divinity. Original Sin 2. Fallout 3 was. But I. I love Divinity. Original Sin 2. I think I like Balers Gate 3 bit more. However, I haven't gone back to it since I last played. Me and Jake were doing a co op campaign. I. I'd be fine with divinity. Original Sin two going up. I do think Fallout three is. The whole conversation about Fallout three versus New Vegas gets heated. I think Fallout three is better. I don't.

[Dan]

I like Fallout three better.

[Mike]

People talk about how New Vegas can have those.

[Mary]

I don't know what divinity is. It's not that you like one better.

[Dan]

No, no. I'm saying I like Fallout 3 better than New Vegas.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mary]

That's allowed.

[Dan]

Yes.

[Mike]

Fallout three. I think. I'll say this before I agree with Mary about divinity. Original sin 2. Fallout 3 I think was really impressive. It almost had a. If it wasn't for the Elder Scrolls. 4 Oblivion doing the open world RPG really basically like Bethesda putting a. Debuting their new style of game that carried through Skyrim, Fallout 4, New Vegas, Starfield now sort of to a lesser extent. But that open world go anywhere rpg, it's took Oblivion and ran with it in this post apocalyptic sci fi world where there's a fucking city built on a decrepit aircraft carrier. Talk about changing the world. You can go find this town built around a dudge, what you think is a dud shell of a nuke stuck halfway in the ground and there's a cult worshiping it and they're irradiated and there's some ghouls that got outcast and you start to learn the fucking story about different people going in and out of that town is just some of the. Some incredible RPG writing. And then you get faced with the choice of whether you want to blow it up or not later. You can change the world in that regard. And then the closer you get toward like the Mall and the Capitol building, the more urban it becomes. It's. You could spend like hours and hours scavenging out in the wastes in like in Bethesda or Fox Chase or whatever. Chevy Chase or whatever the neighborhoods are. That's still one of my favorite open world Bethesda games. But yeah, Divinity, Original Sin Tune, the quality of its writing and the. The just sheer number of things you can stumble on that have unforeseen repercussions like hours later is like. I would even say Larian's work kind of outpaces the Witcher or CD project in that regard, which is saying a lot, as we've discovered.

[Dan]

So are we retconning the Metal Gear thing?

[Mike]

No, I'm fine with Original Sin 2.

[Mary]

The bracket has spoken. Dan.

[Mike]

Original Sin 2 and Baldur's Gate 3 are probably the two best, best CRPGs ever made. And one studio made both of them, which is just crazy that that's neither here nor there, I guess. But yeah, Larian makes really good video games. If we did this. If we did this episode in another like five years, I'd probably put Baldur's Gate 3 on there. Yeah, it hasn't settled yet.

[Mary]

It hasn't. I haven't actually had enough time to finish it. It's just a really long experience. But I absolutely. Like, I was just so moved by Divinity by the end of it and it's just a kind of an iconic part of my life, I think of it. I also know it's around nine years old because I was playing it when I got the call that Simone needed a home. And so I know that it's around that time because I had all my snacks ready and I had my pillows on the floor, and I was getting ready to play Divinity Original Sin when I got the call saying, hey, can you come get him? And I said, yeah, And I put all my snacks away and I got my dog instead.

[Mike]

He farted his way into your campaign.

[Mary]

He farted his way into my heart.

[Mike]

Yeah. No, divinity original sin 2 is awesome.

[Dan]

I'd fight harder for fallout 3. I liked it a lot back then. I thought the dlc, especially for that era, was, like, really, really good.

[Mary]

Fallout is also, I think, the Maryland so beloved in terms of, like, just globally. I thought I would lose, and so I am not sure how I thought I Absolutely.

[Mike]

Fallout 3 is still one of my personal top 15 games of all time. I have really fond memories of it. That was my first. I didn't play Oblivion until I played Fallout 3. So that open world, the Bethesda. We all know what I'm talking about. The literally go anywhere, spend hours wandering kind of Bethesda Open World. That was my first exposure to it. I went back to Oblivion. It had already started to age by then. And then by the time Skyrim came out, I was in awe of that. But no divinity original sin 2 is just so brilliantly engineered.

[Dan]

I think something that hurts my memory of Fallout 3 is that I look back and it was so emblematic of that time period where it was just very much this kind of monochrome thing. It was just a lot of drab apocalypse, drab stuff. Like, I. When I think back, I'm just kind of like something about the aesthetic now. Okay. It's just kind of that one note. I mean, it should be. It's about the apocalypse, but it's apocalyptic.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Mike]

It's that neon green interspersed with all the grays and the browns. Yes.

[Mary]

It had a good world building, too. I mean, it had a show made after it. I mean, it's. It's really made its way into pop culture now. And the Fallout universe is quite interesting. So I think this is a tough matchup, and I think that they're both just really solid. So I just have to go with the one that is more meaningful to me. But I think they're both great games. Where are we at then? What's happening?

[Mike]

I would go with Divinity.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dan]

I mean, my vote will go Fallout, but it's fine.

[Mary]

Okay. You are not. Your heart isn't broken on that one.

[Dan]

Nah, I like Fallout 3. That's good.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Our next matchup, Spelunky versus Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Dan]

All right, all right, look, Spelunky is a very good Rog light.

[Mary]

Don't you be little Slunky. It's so important.

[Dan]

I can't play.

[Mary]

It's like one of the best Rog lights.

[Dan]

Yeah, I didn't play it until like five years. I want to say, like, when did the command. I didn't play it during the pandemic or I didn't play it until the pandemic.

[Mary]

It was during GameSpot's era. So 14, 13, 2014 is going to be my guess. Well, it was my GameSpot era. Sorry, not Game Spots. Existence. Yeah, I remember Carolyn Pettit was raving about Spelunky and that's actually why I picked it up. And my God, did I put so many hours into Spelunky at the time? Yeah, it's really, really, really solid game. Expertly crafted and God, it was kind of like everybody wanted to talk about it at the time. I think it's gonna be a tough sell depending on how big everyone is. Into Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3, which I also played, it had one of the best soundtracks.

[Mike]

All right. Not to offend anybody, I know two, of course, but like, which I have a hard time differentiating Tony Hawk.

[Dan]

So I can tell you all of it. Three is, I think, the best. Tony Hawk. Hawk. Because it is the one that like one kicked ass and then two introduced the manual. So then all of a sudden you can chain things together.

[Mike]

Yes, I know, I know.

[Dan]

That really opens things up. But three was the one that added the revert, which was the last step you needed, where it's like if you're doing a vert trick as you land, you hit R2 and you can kind of spin around into a manual. So at that point you can basically just go the whole two minute run and then some by just chaining a million things together. So if you got good at that game and I. That is one of the few games we were talking about punch out earlier, I injured my thumb, fucking turned black from just digging in so hard on this game because it really rewarded you getting into that flow state and knowing how to chain your flip tricks to your grinds, to your verts, to your manuals and reverts and everything. The levels are fantastic. It is. It is the peak of one of the all time great franchises. It's also, I think maybe just like, like it rivals the best Marios with like the best feeling games of all time to play. You feel awesome when you're pulling stuff off in that game to this day.

[Mary]

It's a tough. Yeah, that's.

[Mike]

I'm nodding my head. For those who don't, who are just listening.

[Mary]

It's such a solid. It's a solid game. I mean, I. I also enjoyed playing this. I don't think I had the childhood experiences playing it before. Old people have, but I, I.

[Dan]

You're like two years younger than me.

[Mary]

I had. I had friends who played this game and that I would go over to their house and we would play it together. And it is just like a really iconic and seamless experience. And it was a cool person's game. Everyone who it was cool had this in their house. I think it's kind of iconic to its time. And I think actually I don't think I would fight that hard for Splunky over it. I think he's just awesome. It's really, really good.

[Dan]

And there's some similarities here too, because I really do think Spelunky will be one of those games that 10, 20 years from now, just by nature of the design and what that game is, I think that will feel really good to play eternally. I think if there's anything that might be dated with it, I kind of think the art style is a little kind of of its era. I don't love the art style of Spelunky. You know, Tony Hawk 3 doesn't look modern or anything, but that was more of a technological limitations. I just. And maybe it's subject. I just don't love this flunky art style, but I think it will play great 10, 20, 30 years from now.

[Mary]

Yeah, it was really solid. Mike, I'm curious where you're at here. I'm like, I'm not gonna like die on this hill.

[Mike]

But yeah, I can't split the decision between those two because again, I barely remember Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3 as its own individual entity. I will say I have only ever played. I say only. I think I've probably put being honest 50 hours into Spelunky. I've played more 2 and Spelunky 2, in my opinion, is like one of those games that's close to perfect. I. The first Spelunky was the first time as an adult. I think that I felt the same sense of discovery and mystery and what the gonna happen next. And all right, there's a lot of complex rules I need to learn through trial and error. I'm not gonna read a guide. Oh, this warps me to hear. Oh, this pisses him off. If I use this item. Let's not mess with this prospector. Oh, okay, now I've got a shotgun. This is great. Turns out the shotgun can really fuck you over in certain areas. Wait a minute, there's a whole new biome I didn't even know about. Spelunky reminded me why I loved video games to begin with. That's a very personal thing, but I just think it was built. Spelunky is like the most video game ass video game ever. And in this argument it's going up against Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3, which is one of the. From what you told me, if it's anything like Tony hawk's Pro Skater 2, which I played the shit out of, one of the most video game ass video games ever, I don't particularly care that much for each one. I can see myself going back to Spelunky 2 in like a year or two and that's all I talk about. But at this point in time right now I'm, I'm kind of deferring on this one right now.

[Dan]

It's funny, I made the argument earlier about how I still load up, you know, WarIowaWare every time I'm setting up an analog pocket or something like that. And, and some of them, like, a lot of them, they will only play like 2D games and maybe up to like, you know, PS1. And whenever I get one it's like, oh, okay, Steam Deck. I heard that's good. Like you know, PS2 or the ROG Ally or something that the one I always go to to test how good something is with PS2 stuff is Tony Hawk 3. Just because go to the Foundry, you just drop right in and you're instantly like if something is even the slightest bit off with that game, you know, because that game controlled so tight. So that is my go to all the time with anything from that PS2 era. And I do think it holds up incredibly well. I'm sure if somebody came to it now for the first time and you know, and didn't play all the series leading up to it, it might be a bit much. But yeah, yeah. Mary, you mentioned the music too. Starting out with Ace of Spades and I think that one had the, the Del. The Funky Homo sapien. A bunch of great stuff on there. Like it's just, it's, it's an iconic fucking game. Iconic series. And this is the height of the series.

[Mary]

Tits Blunky had so many sick moments where you were just like, there's no way I'm gonna make it out of this. And then you did. And you'd be like, yes, I am the greatest gamer alive. And then you would get hit by a snake. And then. And then you would just get hit three more times before you hit the ground.

[Mike]

You were dead.

[Mary]

It was so beautiful. That game humbled the out of you.

[Dan]

Oh yeah.

[Mike]

It's also like, it's up there with GTA 5 in the sense that. That why the. Did the developers spend that much time making this ending, quote, unquote ending. And Spelunky is not really a thing, which the. I've never seen it. But there's criteria to reach a certain ending. It's like, I don't. I genuinely don't understand how anybody discovered this, let alone achieve this. And they probably spent. I don't know. I don't design games. But it must have been a sizable chunk of the time it made to make that game just so maybe one person could see it and then tell their friends at the water. Cool. Which is the really cool shit about most of my favorite video games. Again, I'm sure, like, I'll come around to Spelunky 2 again, more in the future game, which I loved, but always was just comparing it to the first game, which I. Spelunky1 was one of those games that always impressed the hell out of me more than I genuinely got attached to. Yeah, I'm. I don't. Am I the deciding vote right now or. Mary, Are you kind of Tony Hawk?

[Mary]

Yeah, I think that I. I put Spelunky on here. So I lean towards Spelunky, but I'm not gonna. This is. This is a tougher sell for me.

[Mike]

But I will say. I will say Dan has swayed me more than you have.

[Mary]

Yeah. I think it was very important to you. And I. I do think Splunky was important to me, but I. I don't think that I see Spelunky getting very far in this bracket. And I just think.

[Mike]

Which I think it should, but I don't think I have put enough time and like into it. But that's. Again, that's just. Doesn't matter.

[Mary]

Okay. Tony hawk Pro Skater 3 wins over Splunky.

[Mike]

Chris Plants rolling in his bed. He's alive.

[Mary]

Just a fire escape. Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. No, he listens while he poops. No, I'm just joking. I don't know.

[Mary]

In bed.

[Mike]

Yep. Did you guys not know this about Chris Plant?

[Dan]

No. No. That's his thing. Yeah, yeah.

[Mary]

He's got even funny. There's new fandangled toilet beds.

[Dan]

Look. That's what we did in Kansas City growing up. He's from there.

[Mike]

All those can sands in there.

[Dan]

That's what we call ourselves too.

[Mike]

Could never fall asleep till you poop. Into dreamland.

[Mary]

Our next matchup, Super Mario Bros. 3. Would you like me to say brothers? Super Mario Brothers three.

[Dan]

I usually just say Mario three, but yeah. Yeah.

[Mary]

Versus the last of us.

[Mike]

This is like the okay Corral.

[Dan]

The end of the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

You don't see. It's like 12 Angry Men. But there's only three of us. But we're all kind of like looking at each other.

[Mike]

I didn't.

[Dan]

Why don't you start?

[Mike]

I think I was the last of us.

[Mary]

I was also the last of us. That's a joy.

[Mike]

No, it doesn't. Hey, I swayed my. You Mary, swayed me on divinity. You got me on Tony Hawk. I'm not rigid. I mean I'm very hard right now, but I'm not like stubborn.

[Mary]

I mean, come on. The last of us is like this iconic storyline.

[Mike]

What did Mario 3 ever change?

[Mary]

Yeah. What did that do for anybody?

[Mike]

No, I, I. This is not a matchup. I anticipated, I was about to say.

[Dan]

Was the last of us in a movie.

[Mary]

The Bratz. I know.

[Dan]

They just made a whole series, basically.

[Mary]

Yeah, they sure did. It's HBO's series and it's extremely.

[Dan]

Just if I'm not gonna win, like do I, do I waste?

[Mike]

No, no, no. Yes, please. Because I, I'm open to being swayed.

[Mary]

Yeah. Waste your breath, bud.

[Dan]

I love but I feel like this is like a metal your solid thing too. Where it's just. I'm going into old man. Like it had to be there. You did have to be there. So Mario, Mario.

[Mike]

You both understand how Mario a great guy.

[Dan]

Yeah. If you are a 4 or 5 year old. Like I was in the late 80s obsessed with Mario. All right. What?

[Mike]

Why you were obsessed with wedding him.

[Dan]

Oh, having sex with Mario. No, that sounded weird now that I think about it.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Dan]

No.

[Mary]

Why you started again.

[Dan]

Okay. When you're obsessed with fornicating with Mario. Like I was as a four year old.

[Mike]

Like I am.

[Dan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mary]

As a four year old.

[Dan]

Mario was everything. Mario was the entire world. It was the only thing that mattered. I didn't know pro wrestling existed for another five years. Mario was the world and then two comes out. I love, I mean the us too. I love that I'm not going to do a whole history thing here anyway.

[Mike]

Please don't.

[Dan]

Three starts getting hyped. Hyped up like crazy. And this is around the time, you know, I'm five or six. I'm starting to get video game magazines and shit. I'm seeing screenshots of like, Mario 3. Oh, my God, he's got a raccoon tail. He's got all that. Oh, it looks so fucking good. And then the Wiz comes out. That movie where the show.

[Mike]

Do you not know this is just.

[Dan]

An old guy thing?

[Mike]

The Wiz is a Seinfeld character for me.

[Dan]

Oh, wow. Okay. Well, at the. The climax of the Wiz was they goat. It was like a thing in conjunction with Nintendo. This movie was made, but released in theater. And at the end, they go to this, like, video game competition where somehow they turn Mario 3 into a thing and they're doing the bonus games as a competition anyway. All that matters was it was kind of the debut of Mario 3. The way they would do a Nintendo direct now to show off the new Mario, it's like, oh, if you want to see Mario 3 before it comes out, we're going to show parts of it in the Wiz. Or the Wizard, I think it was called the Wizard. Yeah. And so people literally, like, the hype was so crazy that you. You would go buy a fucking ticket to go see this movie to get a glimpse of a new video game instead of watching it on an E3 stream or a YouTube video or something like that. That's how off the charts the Hype was. And I think where it falls off for me, in terms of being able to make a major argument here is it was not necessarily a Metal Gear Solid moment where it's like, this changes everything. It was more of a Zelda one to link to the past situation where it's like, it is taking the framework of the original.

[Mike]

This is what that could have been greatly improving.

[Dan]

Even though this was actually on the same system. Zelda went from any snes. This is on the same system. It was just that Mario 3 was leaps and bounds ahead of everything 1 and 2 did. I mean, I fucking love 2, but 3 is threes, right behind Mario World in terms of just like, this is a perfect video game.

[Mike]

So I have not played much Mario World Bros. 3 Super Mario Bros. 3 different games. World Bros. 3 haven't played much Super Mario Bros. 3.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mike]

Oh, is that what we're talking about?

[Mary]

Yes.

[Mike]

I played. I played it back in the day. I've not played much since I Was young.

[Dan]

Oh, it's incredible. Still.

[Mike]

Game design, like game design. What, what is it? Is it what makes the platforming good? Level design, you know, it was the.

[Dan]

First one to have that overworld, you know. Whereas like, you know, one, you just go from thing to thing and two, you go from level to level and there were warps and stuff like that in one and. But with three, you had the overworld where you could decide like, I fucking hate this auto scroll level, you know, I know if I don't beat it, I can't get to this toad house, but I can just go do this level instead of that one. I can still get to the fortress, you know, that type of stuff. And then the skips and stuff were like. You'd find the warp whistle. There were three warp whistles hidden throughout the eight worlds and everything. Each world had a fun gimmick. It was the first I'd seen to do like the big small world where, you know, you go into one, like the Goombas are giant and like, you know, fun gimmicks like that. The power ups were incredible. It's the one that introduced the raccoon tail. So it's the first one where Mario is flying, which was a blast. And that opens up like as soon as like you open up the ability where Mario can fucking fly. There are all these moments where it's like, yeah, like, but you need to get a run up to fly. So certain parts of levels you, oh, I could, I could fly right now. And there's always that mystery of like what is above the screen right now. You know, if I were to fly right now, now a lot of times you go up there and it's like, oh shit, there's all these clouds and question mark blocks and there's a fucking pipe there that takes me to this bonus area. So even though it was just a side scrolling platformer, there was always this mystery of like what's just out of sight or weird fucking things. Like if you duck on a white block for six seconds, it puts you behind the stage. Like it puts you behind the background elements and you can run behind things and warp to other areas and some. It's just so filled with secrets that felt nothing short of magical back then. You know, the previous Mario 1 and 2 had some warps and things like that, but 3 just was the most mysterious and fascinating thing I could fucking imagine in late 80s, early 90s.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Dan]

It's incredible and it holds up today. It plays like Mario 1 was very important to me, doesn't Play amazing these days. Mario 3. I play it now and I love every second of it.

[Mike]

Yeah, I replayed the Last of Us, the remastered recently and I like the Last of Us Part two. I think it's way too long. I think a lot of it was bloated. Last of Us Part one is still one of the most incredibly paced games. A just the cross country post apocalypse. It's like the best road trip game game ever. And I think people forget that it's a road trip game. You're trying to get to Salt Lake City or. No, you're originally trying to get to. You go through Pittsburgh Northwest. That's where part two, eventually they get to. But there you get to Salt Lake City. That's where you see the giraffes in that moment. Which like, as like cliche as that moment has become now. It actually was really cool to like it was be in this really grim world for that long and you're doing some up as Joel. And I also don't think that game gets enough credit for how good its combat is. And I think Last of Us Part Last of Us Part two's roguelike mode actually showcases the combat in a way that I'm like, yes, this is Last was Part one. It's very much about like what the is in my immediate vicinity that I can just smash someone over the head with quick. Okay, I don't have any other choice. I'm just going to kick him a few times, punch him, and then there's another guy coming at me. I've got one rifle bullet left, but I don't want that guy to kill me. So like the. The way that that game's combat captures the heat of the moment decision making. That many games kind of trivialize grounds that combat in a way that works for that world so well. I'm not going to sit here and say that that game was. What's the phrasing I'm looking for? I think a lot of people say, oh, it's grim. It was like really. It was violent, it was dark. Like, I still love playing the game. I have a lot of fun playing it. I think it feels great. I think the remaster helped. I also, like, I know the weapon sway got criticized because it just didn't feel great. I was like, I don't think it's supposed to. Joel's not a soldier. He's this dad that like went south, but holy. It's up there with Half Life 2, Half Life 2, City 17 opening off the train and then running, escaping through the hallways. Like the intro to the Last of Us, when Sarah, your daughter, dies, when you're escaping the military and you're kind of controlling things. You're not. It's very Naughty Dog set piece, cinematic, but you're sort of controlling telling it, which they're very good at, as turns out all the way straight through to. Again. I think people have looked. I think Last was gets that Bioshock Infinite treatment where there absolutely are big flaws in its thematic storytelling. I'll. I'm right there with people. I also think people look back and kind of diminish the impact certain moments had at the time. That last line, Last was Part one. I. Replaying it recently is still, Still. We all know the implications it has for part two. The fact that going back to the game, that script led up to that moment so expertly that I didn't. I reviewed that game for Gaming nexus back in 2013. I had to run Rush home from E3, jump into that game, start playing it. And as I was playing, I was like, oh, my God. What is. How has Naughty Dog done this? You know, they came off of Uncharted 33 before they did this. That was just like a studio flexing its design chops showing, hey, we can do this as well. That Joel, Ellie relationship. I, I. There are. Those two characters are just so fleshed out, so real. I, I hate the phrase lived in. But they, you know, it was what, Troy Baker and from Mass Effect.

[Mary]

I don't know the girls.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's. I really should look. But like, yeah, they killed those parts and like that relationship. And you learn more about Ellie and you're like, oh, okay, Ellie's the central character here. But like the, the, the, you know, Joel using her as Joel gets hurt. Yeah. And you all of a sudden moments.

[Mary]

And everyone's like, what the.

[Mike]

Yeah, right. But again, replaying it, I don't, I forgot how well that was handled because Joel gets. He falls off a balcony in the. The campus where they think that there might be something they need in Colorado. He falls off, piece of rebar goes through him. He's like, that's through his kidney. He's fucked. She gets him back on the horse, basically. And then it cuts. And for those who don't remember, the game is structured into each, each of the four seasons. So that was fall.

[Mary]

Fall.

[Mike]

And then all of a sudden it cuts and it's just winter. It's the close up on that rabbit, just like, kind of like being cute in the woods. And all of a sudden, arrow hits It. There's that famous, like, stream clip of the girl. Girl. The woman who's, like, streaming. Then she sees it, she cries. And all of a sudden you're like, holy. I'm playing as Ellie. It was like, yeah, it was like Ryden. The way the camera came behind her. And you realize, oh, my God, it's going into position. I'm going to play as her. They don't tell you that Joel is in a basement in this house in this random suburb in the cold because they couldn't put him anywhere else. Like, the. The restraint that game shows in many moments and how it ties that. The impact of its big storytelling moments into the gameplay. When all of a sudden, like, when Ellie sees Nolan North's character, David, who is like, there's something off about him, but he's really charming and charismatic. Turns out, no, he's a cannibal cult leader and he killed that performance as well. It's Nolan North. But as the control goes back to you as Ellie, you're like, I really am in a dire situation. This dude is creepy and dangerous. I need to get the fuck out of here. The way that that game flits between, okay, here's the story we want to tell as Naughty Dog. But then when the control goes back to your hands, the way that they can kind of transfer the momentum of the emotion from that cutscene into your controller is just fucking like, part two doesn't get anywhere close to part one in that regard. And you know that. I think Last of Us is Naughty Dog at its peak. They have not surpassed it yet. And I. That. That I'm so happy I replayed that game recently because it's still really fucking holds up. It's just also paced really well. The mission variety. Mission, not mission, but level variety. The situations you're in. This fucking gang that's abducting people in Pittsburgh. I need to sneak. And then all of a sudden, oh, stealth's fucked. I gotta go loud and just try to kill people however I can to protect Ellie. It's. I don't know. I love it.

[Mary]

It's a really tough comparison as well. This is like Apocalypse now versus Paddington Bear too. Like, they're both really excellent, but like, holy shit, one is annihilating and stressful and. And just will gut you. I do think Super Mario Bros. 3 is a fantastic, fantastic childhood experience. And I, you know, we've been doing a lot of. This is like, which one would you play? Which one do you enjoy play more? And it's like, really depends on My vibe, because I would not play the Last of Us on a whim. It is stressful and chaotic and, like, really hard to get through in some parts. Not because it's bad, but because it's so, so gut wrenching on my soul. Whereas, like, Super Mario Bros. Is a delight. It is ice cream, baby. It is like, yes, please, all the time. You could play that game at any moment and it will bring you joy.

[Mike]

So they're just really, really, really quick response to that, Mary. I agree, But I also think there are moments of joy throughout the Last of Us that you forget about that just, of course, get overshadowed by how grim the rest of it is. But, like, they. They really earn those, like, giraffe moments, so to speak.

[Mary]

But anyway, sorry, Dan, because so many people get killed. Go ahead, Dan.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

I mean, you know how I am with Mario and how much I love it. Obviously, my vote will go to Mario 3. I played it, like, three days ago and I was wee. This is still fun. But I don't think of the Last of Us often, frankly. And I don't think of it as, like, one of my favorite games. But, you know, as we talk about it and I am kind of brought back to my time with it, I'm not a. I don't like playing stone stealthily. I. I don't like playing stealth games. I like Metal Gear for the story. I don't like sneaking around because I'm bad at it. And the Last of Us, I don't consider a stealth game. But, like, what Mike was saying about, like, the stealth mechanics and everything, I think the actual stealth gameplay is better in the Last of Us than I have seen in Metal Gear or Splinter Cell or Assassin's Creed. It's fucking awesome for that stuff. And I also don't consider myself someone who likes stories in video games for the most part. And the Last of Us specifically, that first one, actually, I like two as well. But that first one especially, I remember being, like, invested. You know, normally cutscene time is like, all right, I'm like, half paying attention with most games. This one I was like. By the end, I was like, God damn. And yeah, that last line and going to credits was just like.

[Mary]

Would you say it's a more gripping story than a Metal Gear?

[Dan]

No, let's say, like, absolutely not.

[Mike]

I think it's more grounded than a Metal Gear, literally, by definite, like, Metal Gear is just such. More. More like, big scale.

[Mary]

And like, the President's dramatic baby is winking at me. Yeah, there's like, that's more desperate. Yeah, yeah, whatever.

[Dan]

I mean it when I say noted.

[Mary]

Was not on this list.

[Dan]

I. I do think Metal Gear Solid is the best story ever told across any medium. I do believe that Mike's eyes just about popped out of his head. But, like, yes, I do think it is the best story in the history.

[Mike]

Of Dostoevsky's rolling in his grave.

[Dan]

Dostoevsky. Yeah. No. Metal Gear is my favorite story ever.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. To your point, Last. Yeah, no, sorry.

[Dan]

No, no. It's all to say, like, I do really respect the Last of Us. I did really enjoy it, and I don't think the winner of this should be like, you know, just because I go back to Mario 3, like, twice a month for my entire life doesn't necessarily mean it's better or worse than a game that I played in 2013 and haven't thought about that much since. It's not about replayability. And I'm also not saying that is better than Mario. It helps. You know, my vote is Mario3 for the record. But it's all to say, we know.

[Mary]

We've heard you.

[Dan]

Yeah. I'm not going to put up a stink about Last of Us if that's where this goes. Seems like it will.

[Mike]

I love the stealth and the Last of Us because it actually feels it's not. A lot of games are like, oh, you have the option to go stealth. The option to go loud. I was like, no, Last of Us is like, stealth is a necessity until it's not an option anymore.

[Dan]

And then the way it transitions into, like, oh, they caught me. It's like, here's a brick. You like?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

That was really good.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah. Or here's a Molotov cocktail. His friend's on fire, and now he's freaking out even though he has a shotgun. Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan]

It's fucking good.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Well, we're gonna need to just make a call, so I think it's you, Mary. Okay. I'm gonna say the Last of Us.

[Dan]

All right, fair enough.

[Mike]

If that was Last of Us, Part two versus. Well, I didn't nominate it, but, like, if it came, I wouldn't. I would have gone Mario. But last was Part one is so much better.

[Mary]

Part two is, like, so stressful. Part one one or Last of Us also too long.

[Mike]

I also don't think they should have done the open world. It was so exhausting them in Gears 5 like, those open world.

[Mary]

Last of Us wins against Super Mario Brothers 3. Our next matchup, Left 4 Dead 2 versus Resident Evil remake. Oh, fuck Resident Evil this one is my sadness.

[Mike]

Yeah, I'm there.

[Mary]

Left 4 Dead 2 is extremely important to me. It is absolutely like when it comes to horror genre, the best multiplayer like stress zombie game I've ever played. And I didn't play Resident Evil until later in my life. So my experiences with what's the perfect zombie game, it's, it's Left 4 Dead 2 and it, it always is Left 4 Dead 2. It is just this iconic team based zombie game. It stresses you out. There's so many good moments of camaraderie, figuring out like going against your first witch, hitting your first parked car and having the alarm go off, getting all the gas canisters in the mall while things are absolutely going to really hype you up. And I, I, I feel really, I, this is a really tough one for me. I feel really strongly about Left 4 Dead 2. But I mean I. Resident Evil remake.

[Mike]

How did the first two zombie games mashed up again? Yeah, it's random. Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 is a. The Director, the AI system they use to control the flow of things is just still no idea how the fuck you even make something like that. And two Left four Dead and one and two, which kind of might as well be one thing, are like the most difficult games to talk about. What makes them feel so good because they're so simple on the surface and the immediate moment to moment gameplay is so seems simple. But people are still modding left 4 dead 2. A shit ton of people still play that game over Back four Blood and there's like videos. You could see the comparisons like here's why that minutia matters in how you can destroy things in a room in Left 4 Dead. And why the bullets hitting a zombie this way make it feel just satisfying to play. And how ducking and shooting just over a character's head, it, it's, it's really hard to put into words and I'm clearly not good at it, but that game is just still even like Zombie. Aside from Zombies and Co Op, it's just one of the best feeling shooters ever. It's. I, I truly want, I want to see like a video essay that breaks down what makes it so good on a, you know, on a nuanced level because I don't fully understand it, but it still feels amazing to jump back into today day. But Resident Evil remake, oh my God.

[Mary]

Yeah, they're both good. Dan, I'm curious where you are. I, Yeah, I put Left for Dead.

[Mike]

Put it there.

[Mary]

And you put Resident Evil Remake. I'M with you on another Resident Evil, but remake is still a little rough for me. It's obviously phenomenal, but it actually, I think it was my favorite of all the Resident Evils, which is kind of funny. I think I'm backtracking a little bit. Resident Evil is. Remake specifically is very iconic and very important. I think I just have. This is really hard left 4 dead. I have a lot of good memories with Mike and I have some of the best memories at my time at Gamespot and beyond playing Resident Evil. So I would be really happy with both of these. And it guts me that one of these won't get through. I'm curious, Dan, like, where you are on this? I'm dying.

[Dan]

I'm coming from the place where it's like, I was never a big zombie game guy, but I did like Resident Evil quite a bit. And I did. I think there's two games that I liked lot and I've played both of these games a lot. I was never a fanatic about either of them. I think my appreciation for RE grew over time. And my first time actually playing through the remake was they, you know, probably like 2015, 2016, they put it on Steam and they like. I actually like tank controls. I was never an anti tank control person. But I just say that it was the remake where they took that, they made that an option to do normal stuff. And I did that once and I was like, oh, wait, I totally see why they do tank controls going back to that. But I think that is, you know, until the last five years, I think it was a no brainer for the best remake of all time. As far as that RE remake and the fact that that first time they put it out in what, O2 or whatever, which was a few years, like what, 96 to 02. Not that much time between it because like, yeah, RE1 came out in 96, set in 98.

[Mike]

PS1.

[Dan]

Yeah, the GameCube RE remake was 02 in that time. I remember seeing screenshots of it in magazines being like, that's not possible. There's no way the fucking candles look that good. Like, the lighting, like, it just looked insane. And it was so faithful to all of the things that made the original one just six years prior so great and just objectively made everything so much better. And not just. It's not just the remaster treatment. It is the fully. Like, we are changing puzzles. We are adding entire, entire parts of this game that were not there before that were maybe alluded to in a note or something.

[Mike]

The whole residence with Lisa.

[Dan]

That shit was awesome. Whereas like Left 4 Dead I think was a very impressive. Especially for its time online co op game where you didn't see a lot of stuff doing what it was doing. Mike, you mentioned the director tech and like that really was like, holy shit. For a game where you only have a limited amount of kind of space and objectives and stuff. That's how you keep it fresh. Is. Is like each playthrough is different because it is throwing different stuff at you every time. That was brilliant. But ultimately I think I have to go with remake. I think it was just such. It is one of the best remakes of all time. And even just standing on its own, what a tremendous achievement.

[Mike]

I think it was one of the best remakes of all time until Resident Evil 2. Yeah. And four series is really. Capcom's really good at remaking games. Yeah, yeah. I mentioned Metro. Oh, wait, are we. Is this decided or. Mary, are you still fighting left or dead?

[Mary]

I'm not gonna fight that.

[Mike]

Okay, cool. I'll save this for the sweet 16 then.

[Mary]

Resident Evil remake wins over Left 4 Dead 2. I think the reason is. Is because like, this is very justified to me. Like all of the arguments so far. It's like I just can't. I can't argue with any of these things. So. Yeah, I also think it's a 2v1 already. So. So it's like it is what it is. Resident Evil remake wins over Left four Dead. Next. This one's for you, Mike. Bloodborne versus Ratchet and Clank. Going commando.

[Mike]

I'll go bloodborne, but I've got. I've got to go bloodborne. But I've. Dan, I think you might be interested. I think most of the time me and you talked about our favorite Wretch and Clank. James. It was up your arsenal.

[Dan]

I was up. Your arsenal was mine.

[Mike]

Mine was forever too. And I went back and replayed them all like two years ago, three years ago. I think going commando is actually the sweet spot. Between that more traditional 3D platformer overworld design and you're still kind of platforming up, your arsenal has a lot of like, they were almost trying to go more shooter. You pick a mission, you drop in and then you fight through some stuff. Going commando. I think. I honestly think the peak would maybe be the PS3 trilogy.

[Dan]

Crack in time.

[Mike]

Crack in time.

[Dan]

The future.

[Mike]

Tools of destruction.

[Dan]

Yep.

[Mike]

There was only two and then there was. There was something. Booty.

[Dan]

Quest for booty.

[Mike]

They're all there. A lot of them. Are innuendo. But Going Commando, I think is my, like I said, my sweet spot for like the old and new Ratchet and Clothes. Plank Direction and Rift Apart was awesome on PS5 a couple years ago. But no, going to Mando is the. The weapon design, like how Creative Insomniac got and the the world design, how it blended the platforming and the exploration and the gunplay. It took me. Oh, this actually, I told you an answer for that email we got where I wouldn't remember. We couldn't remember some little feature in a game that made us completely play it differently that someone had to tell. My cousin told me there was a whole other targeting, aiming setup in Going Commando that was not default because Going Commando rely used the free aim like you shot whichever direction Ratchet was aiming of the first game. But there was an option that actually made it more like up youp Arsenal before up youp Arsenal came out where it was more traditional. You aim. He aims where the camera's looking, if that makes any sense. So it was way easier to aim and shoot. And that changed how I play the game Game. But yeah, no, I'm going Bloodborne. I don't even. I don't necessarily. Unless anybody else objects to Bloodborne.

[Dan]

I, I, I've definitely spent more time thinking about and playing Ratchet and Clank games and I. Bloodborne was the first FromSoft game I actually beat. You know, like, I respected Dark Souls and Demon souls from afar, but like, I would play like five, 10 hours of them, be like, ah, I'm good. I don't really know what I'm doing here. Bloodborne was like, oh, shit. Okay. This one was the first one that.

[Mary]

Clicked for me too. It's the first one where I was. I get how these games are meant to make you feel.

[Dan]

Yeah. It was undeniable. And I do feel like that has been on my short list of games I want to go back to. Because I think when I did play it, I just didn't really have that language of how those games work. But now that I've spent so much time playing like Elden Ring and even Armored Core or whatever or Sekiro, I think if I went back to Bloodborne now, I would just because I understand from games more than I did back then, I think I'd enjoy it more. More. I just think there's more going on there like Ratchet. You know, you said Ice Cream earlier when it comes to Mario Mary, and I think Ratchet Clank is fantastic ice cream. I think Bloodborne is Mike say a fancy wine.

[Mike]

What would Bloodborne be? I'd say it's like an Armitage.

[Dan]

I take it back. All right. Bloodborne is really good. I'll vote for Bloodborne. Bloodborne.

[Mary]

All right. Bloodborne wins over Ratchet and Clank. Going commando. I will agree. I think that is fair.

[Dan]

Cool.

[Mary]

Okay, this next one, are we out.

[Mike]

Of the first round yet?

[Mary]

No, no.

[Dan]

Although it goes much faster because, like, a lot of the arguments have been made.

[Mary]

A lot of the arguments have been made, but we'll see because this. Yeah. We still have, like, 10 more games.

[Dan]

And you already killed Metal Gear, which is the one I'd be talking about the most. So. Yeah. And there's no more Metal Gear games.

[Mary]

It was a beautiful day. Victory.

[Mike]

Yeah, we cut that off, Snake right away.

[Mary]

I actually think we have, like, eight more matchups. Okay. Uncharted 2 versus Soul Caliber.

[Dan]

All right, look, when you said Uncharted 2, I was like, great. I can be the champion for this game that I think people forgot about how good a lot of people did. People don't give the credit. Uncharted 2 came out in, what, 2010 or whatever. It was ridiculous, especially for someone who loves, like, you know, octane action, bulletproof, the train sequence and everything. Just unmatched at the time. So I was ready to go to bat and be like, I'm gonna champion Uncharted 2. But then you said Soul Calibur. Everything else. My vote, Soul Caliber.

[Mary]

Okay. Do you have anything else to add to why Soul Calibur?

[Dan]

Yes, it is because I like fighting games a lot, but I've never been, like, competitive in terms of like. Like, you know, I like Mortal Kombat because the characters and special moves and fatalities are all cool. I like Street Fighter because it's a fun thing to do with your friends. I never wanted to be like, oh, let's really, seriously learn this and get competitive and go to Evo or rank up online with fighting games. So Soul Calibur was the one where it's like, God damn, it was so good. If you wanted to be that competitive level player, you could dig super deep into the training mode and command list and all that stuff and learn each character. But also, if you wanted to play way more casually, which is the way I typically played fighting games games, you could go in there and it was the king of, like, you know, you jam on X and Y a little bit, you block some things, and you're going to do some really cool looking, and it feels awesome. It feels like it's not playing for you, but you could just do a lot more cool by kind of hitting buttons than you could in a. A Street Fighter or something like that. But I loved it so much that I wanted to go the extra step. And so I went in and like every single character in soulcase Caliber, I went move by move in the command list and learned every single thing. It is the game I have played the most in my entire life. I've our count Soul Calibur is number one for me, without a doubt. And I didn't expect that because again, was never competitive level fighting game player. But it was just so good and so fun that it's like, I want to learn every fucking character. And there was such a ride with that where it's like, oh, at first Kilik was my guy, but then I start really learning like Mitsurugi or Taki or Nightmare and it's like the depth. Yeah. What's the. What's the phrase? It's. It's something. Something deep. Something wide. Whatever it is, it can be as shallow or as deep as you want it to be. It can be.

[Mary]

Know it, baby.

[Dan]

Whoa. Oh, that's Jesus.

[Mike]

As deep as you're willing to go.

[Dan]

You can be drunk in a dorm room, mashed on the Dreamcast controller and.

[Mary]

Having a great time, or we didn't buy shallow dish.com or you can.

[Dan]

You can spend hundreds of hours learning every character and it's like any level in between, you are gonna have a great time with that game. And another one of those that I will pick up and play anytime. When we did Extra Life recently, me and Minati just played a good amount of it and it's like, wow, this is still like the best fighting game ever. Like, not even just nostalgia wise. It's just. No. No fighting game has ever been nearly this good, I think.

[Mike]

Yeah, you put. You went into your basement and we had the controller. You went into your basement under your studio in Connecticut and you played me blind basically while I was actually seeing the TV upstairs and you beat me. Or did I? It was like best three out of five and I think I might have just barely beat you. And you were in your basement with.

[Dan]

The remote controller not seeing the television. Yeah, just. Yeah, it's. Man, what a tremendous fucking game. Yeah. Every day it's one of those games. Every time I think about Soul Calibur, I want to be playing Soul Caliber. Caliber right now.

[Mary]

A. That's really moving, I have to say. Like, when it comes to like our list, that's a very Endearing pitch. And I loved it.

[Mike]

Fine by me.

[Mary]

All right.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Soul Caliber. I mean, you won me over, bud.

[Dan]

I'm such a psycho about that game that I had, like, 250 hours on my playtime, and I was so, like, wow. I played this game a lot, and then my VMU died, my memory thing. And so when I got a new one, I left it, like, on a pause screen or in a level for 250 hours so it would be accurate again.

[Mary]

Wow.

[Dan]

That's just me being an insane person. But, yeah, it's a great game.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Okay. Soul Caliber wins under over Uncharted 2. Our next matchup, the Legend of Zelda. Ocarina of time versus Halo 2.

[Dan]

Okay, let's talk Halo 2 first. I think the big Halo 2 is Xbox Live. And I think, at least for me, I don't know if it was the same with both of you, but, like, that was that first. Like, oh, shit. Online multiplayer. You know, I never had PC online multiplayer, so to me, it was a revelation.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Dan]

A lot of late nights in college.

[Mike]

I could do land parties with people in fucking Chinese China. Yeah. That's what it felt like. I was like, this is the future.

[Dan]

It was tremendous. It was tremendous. I know the campaign was very polarizing at the time and not the best ending and things like that, but it is very, very good.

[Mike]

Still a good campaign. I love that campaign. Still.

[Dan]

It is. It's fun.

[Mike]

It's messy, but it's. Yeah, but Ocarina, though.

[Mary]

Ocarina.

[Mike]

That's my vote.

[Mary]

Wow, what a good pitch. Hey, Ocarina. Dan, do you. You oppose?

[Dan]

No, I put Halo. At least some flowers to Halo 2 before Ocarina trampled it.

[Mary]

I put Halo 2 because it is upwards of one of the most beloved games of all time, like, globally. So I filled in a gap.

[Dan]

Sure, sure. Yeah. Oh, good call.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dan]

But Ocarina, we. We'll probably talk about Ocarina more when we need to, but I don't know.

[Mike]

If it's gonna make it that far.

[Mary]

Well. Oh, my God. I don't know.

[Dan]

I don't know.

[Mike]

I'm joking. Joking, but I don't know. Maybe it won't. I talk about next round, at least.

[Mary]

Next one. Hollow Knight versus Shadow of the Colossus.

[Dan]

That's an interesting one. Okay.

[Mike]

Wow. Can I go to. Can I go. Can I take a break before this? Because I really need to use the bathroom.

[Mary]

Sure.

[Mike]

That's our T for the. After the break.

[Dan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike]

All right. And we're back for Hollow Knight versus Shadow. Of the Colossus was my nomination.

[Mary]

This is not fair. I think that this is really hard because they actually, shockingly, they. They really do have a lot in common in terms of like being extremely innovative where other people have like duplicated elements of both of these games. The story elements, the surprise, the ability to take on incredible feats and feeling so powerful by the time you're done with it. And I, I really also. I have a massive fondness for Shadow of the Colossus. So this is like kind of gutting for me as well. We all know where my heart is going to go here. I just want to say when it comes to a game I would pick up and play right now to the end of the time, it's Hollow Knight because there's so much to explore in that game. Game. My only like one thing about Shadow of the Colossus that I think is limiting is that there's only so many Colossi. And I have seen them and I've experienced them, but every time I go into a new avenue of Hollow Knight, I'm like, I can't believe that there's a whole beehive in this wall. And that is so sick that they just keep. They surprise me consistently and way more than I was surprised in Shadow of the Colossus. The depth of Hollow Knight Knight and how much they packed into that world and each area is fascinating. There's no boring area of Hollow Knight. It's all. It's all sick. The scope of that game is why I have to give it to Hollow Knight. I can proceed but I will stop there for now.

[Dan]

I. I do. I think you're right about like the scope and the variety and things. That Hollow End has the edge over Shadow the Colossus for sure. And, and there are similarities. I think they both do a lot of show. Don't tell, you know, as far as the world building and you know, even like the vibe of the games is kind of just like vaguely sad and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mary]

Decrepit world or like maybe like once was has collapsed and now you're seeing the ruins of it. Yeah, they have a lot. It's weird. They actually have a lot in common.

[Dan]

Even though.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

The games themselves where it's like Hollow Knight is a Metroidvania. Shadow of the Colossus is like. I, I always compare Shadow the Colossus to punch out where it's like. It's like boss rush, 16 boss fights.

[Mike]

Not a rush, but like boss. Yeah, 16 boss fights, it's true.

[Mary]

But the traveling to the bosses is so poetic and it's deep. You think a lot about yourself. You bond with your horse and develop a relationship with your horse which comes into play. Like, I think it's very wild.

[Dan]

What do you mean? The most interesting video game character of all time? According to Ben Hansen.

[Mike]

Agro the horse.

[Dan]

Yes. He believes agro the horse. Horse is the most interesting video game character of all time. But we don't need to unpack that.

[Mike]

No, I don't.

[Mary]

Has he met Roach?

[Dan]

No, it's agro. Yeah. Big boss.

[Mary]

And everyone, like, not even characters. There's more interesting horses in games.

[Dan]

Oh, I. Oh, hey, I'm with you.

[Mike]

Yeah, I. You were talking about how poetic it can be. Just get from place to place and that you come up to some bosses. The more. The more bosses you fell, the more you come up and you. Like this bird was just like minding its own business in this lake in this gorgeous, forlorn, lonely place. And I'm kind of come in and just kill him. Cuz my.

[Dan]

My stabbing it in the head.

[Mike]

My little human.

[Mary]

My wife is.

[Mike]

Needs. Needs the Colossus souls. But yeah, God, you get to some of those environments, it's just like. Truly feels like no one has set foot in that temple where you fight the monkey boss in like millennia. That game I mentioned Metroid prime and then Resident Evil remake and Shadow of the Colossus 3 games that just. They understand how to create atmosphere in a way that no other games do. And there's got like, it's. It feels so weird to say Shadow of the Colossus has some of the best boss fights ever. Because of course it does. It's built around it. It's. You know, it's. It's Ueda doing Ueda and. And co doing their thing. But like the. The bird, especially when you first realize, like, oh man, he's swooping right down over that platform. There's no way. Oh, he's got fur on his shoulders, like above the wheel. Am I gonna just get pulverized if I try that? And then you jump and you grab the fur and it starts soaring up and you're holding on for dear life. And you're.

[Dan]

Music.

[Mike]

Yeah, the music. Like crescendo. Even that. And that's one of 16. There are a couple in there that I actually. I replayed with the remaster. I'm like, those were not great. But the fact that they tried that in, I. I don't. I pretty sure I could be mistaken. I think the first God of war came out not far from Shadow of the Colossus.

[Dan]

Oh, five. Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. Were they both O5?

[Dan]

It sounds they might both be.05. Yeah.

[Mike]

And I played both of those in like back to back weeks and I'm like, holy, you cannot have two more different games. The fact that it is empty is almost like more impressive to me than if they stuffed it chock full of things like a lot of Ubisoft games feel the need to do now or the last 15 years have. But like, yeah. And also, yeah. Show Don't Tell is spot on because like you understand what the story is telling you, even though there are not. The only words you hear for a while are like the chanting of that like godlike thing that's narrating God. The architecture. And in shadow, the Colossus is just some of the best ever. That game world is so unique.

[Dan]

I think it might be the, the most beautiful game I've ever played.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Graphical fidelity. I'm just talking everything. It's the tone in the world.

[Mike]

Back when I cared about this kind of thing, that was always the game. I was like, oh, Ebert needs to play Shadow of the Colossus. But like that's leaving aside the fact that it really does just have these badass boss fights that are on a, on a scale of like, you really don't see much unless it's like a, like an anime inspired game that's like, okay, the, you're like armored core or something. You're flitting around. But this is just a little puny. Like what seems like a teenage dude trying to kill these giants.

[Mary]

And the animation of him as well, showing him fall and stumble. The animation makes him feel so fallible again, comparing to like an Assassin's Creed where it's like when you get hurt, he just kind of like jukes back into position. But you get tossed around like a Frisbee. In Shadow of the Colossus, they want you to feel weak. And I, I think it's a master class in character design and character animation as well.

[Mike]

You feel weak and then you feel triumphant when you kill it. But then it's like moment falling.

[Mary]

You're like, you feel like a bad boy.

[Dan]

You weren't supposed to do that game where I, I reviewed that back in the day and I remember thinking that like, I remember in the review just focusing. Like these boss fights are so clever and they're huge and it's so you get to climb up this whole thing. It's platforming and it's boss fights and, and I don't think I put much thought into like what was happening or the world or the story or anything. And then I played the remake as an older, wiser man and I was like, oh wait, okay, this is actually like on a different level. Like it was kind of hitting me the like, oh God, yeah. I'm just killing these fucking peaceful, beautiful creatures.

[Mike]

You know, like in this literally by definition you would you assume they're all endangered because there's one of them. You're just slaughtering all of them because you want to save what you. You're like the princess God and just.

[Dan]

Elegant shit of just like the way you find it is just hold your sword up with the circle button. It's the beam of light and so beautiful. And for. And that was in that post GTA 3 world too where it's like everything was trying to do that. Like we weren't full Ubisoft map barf open world yet, but everything was just like we need a million side quests and a million things, collectibles and all this stuff. And it was kind of bold enough to be like, no, it's open, you can go wherever you want. But. But like it is desolate, you know, and that, that lends itself to the. The vibe of that game.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Oh, it's so good.

[Mary]

Hollow Knight also has these like moments of desolation where it just like gives you nothing. The kingdom, I think it's called like the. The Kingdom of Tears or whatever. It's just like this dead kingdom. Everything has gone from it, the halls are empty. Everything has died and moved on. Yes, there are bad guys there, but like ultimately you're walking around this hollowed out town and there's so many stories left untold. What were the kings of this place? What were the people? Like, why, why is it abandoned? What happened here? I asked myself that in so many areas of Hollow Knight. It was telling me a lot without telling me anything. Just watching all the death and destruction and Hollow Knight night. And I am here killing a lot and trying to get through it. To what purpose? I don't even fucking know. But you want to kind of investigate these terrifying and really sad sad spaces. Every once in a while you will come across a person who's singing or a person who is alone and they're telling you their really sad story. And it's pretty brutal. The world building of Hollow Knight and just what, what a, what a cold environment it sets you out to be. And you're not a hero. I. I think it's made that kind of Clear. You're not bad nor good in that game. You're just kind of trudging along in it. And I think that's also meaningful because you can kind of make that call as the player of like what kind of person you think you are in this environment. But you are certainly a murderer trying to get through. I think it's. I think it's just meaningful to give your. The player agency in that space. I think both games do this quite, quite well to let you decide are you bad or good. Shadow of the Colossus does that extraordinarily as well. You know you are fighting for a girl, right? You are. You are fighting for the health of someone that you love. And that is valid. But you're also destroying beautiful Colossi. And they weren't doing anything like Mike said. Like it's not like they were destroying a town. They were like hanging out, having a little nap.

[Mike]

It was like a prophet, a religious prophecy that told him he to do it if memory serves.

[Mary]

Yeah. And so it's just kind of. They're both pretty gutting games in that space. But I do absolutely love the agency of determining like what kind of person I think I am in this world. Hollow Knight feels so sad and so alone in so many ways. And it's often like raining in a lot of the spaces. And I think it's just kind of adding to the environment that you are alone and you are gonna go through some shit to get where you want to be. I think it feels great when you're able to get into these spaces. And I still like to this day like I will just travel around Hollow Knight because the music and the world building and the visuals are so stunning. I love visiting those spaces. I like that is like still the game that I play when I just like want to like immerse myself in an environment that I love so much.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

This one's really hard.

[Mike]

I love Hollow Knight but like Shadow the Colossus to me is. Is.

[Mary]

You want to play it? Which one would you play more now? Shadow the cloth off Dan.

[Dan]

I'm not trying to be antagonistic. I just. They're. I came around.

[Mike]

It really is. It really is a kind of a perfect but also a terrible matchup. Like.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mary]

So brutal.

[Mike]

They are similar. I hate to say it because I know how much Hollow means to you, Mary, but like shout out.

[Mary]

Come on guys. There's like not even that many colassi. Like they don't even do anything if they're quantity.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's.

[Mary]

Yeah, I'm like, you don't have to learn their moves. You just jump on.

[Mike]

Yes. You absolutely need to learn their moves. There's a bunch of them that are agile.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Say, I know.

[Dan]

You know, it's really good.

[Mike]

She's like, I know.

[Dan]

It's a tough one.

[Mike]

Yeah. It's honestly, like, it would have been easier to pick Hollow Knight over, like, an Arcady game than another artistic.

[Dan]

Yeah. And it just happened to go against one of the most beautiful games ever made. That also holds up really well. And.

[Mike]

Yeah, I have to go shadow the Colossus. I'm sorry. I feel bad.

[Dan]

I have to go shadow the Colossus.

[Mary]

This is so stupid.

[Dan]

Oh, no one's had to feel like this on this bracket before.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Not like, you know, with valid reasons. This is really hard.

[Mike]

I think we solved that argument really well.

[Dan]

Shadow. At least you lost to something better than the Witcher 3.

[Mike]

Yeah. You died with dignity.

[Mary]

Yeah. There is dignity in losing to Shadow of the Clause. It's one of the, like, most beloved games of all time. All right, fine.

[Dan]

I honestly, I would have pushed for Hollow Knight if circumstances were different.

[Mary]

Yeah, fine. Fine. Our next matchup is Titanfall 2. 2 versus Portal.

[Mike]

Oh, me.

[Dan]

That's an interesting one.

[Mike]

Was you. Were you Portal Mary?

[Mary]

I am Portal, yeah.

[Mike]

Did you do port? You did portal over Portal 2, just to clarify.

[Mary]

So this is an interesting one, and I think it could come back to haunt me. I do. I do think that Portal 2 is, like, the more enjoyable fundamental game, right? Like, it's the one you can play with another person. It has extraordinarily good puzzles, and I think the world the listeners might be like, why didn't you do Portal 2? You suck. I did choose Portal 1 because I think this is our list. And even though I think Portal 2 is the better game, so this might come back to bite me in the butt. Portal original is like the quintessential world building that needed to exist for Portal 2 to be as good as it is. It's the one that invents GLaDOS. It's the one that gives you this incredible skepticism of the world that you're in. Right. In Portal 2, you know your person is bad, right? Like, you know, glados is not good, and you have to deal with them. But in Portal 1, the game actually sets you up where you're supposed to kind of like GLaDOS and, like, you're supposed to kind of enjoy them, and they're telling you that you get cake at the end. And so when there's that twist in the game, which is, I think almost a trope now, but at the time, the first time you recognize that the game is going to kill you unless you break the wall and get through. Blew my fucking mind. And I think that that's the first time that I recognized that a game designer could get me to. I thought I was like breaking the game. Right. But it was all designed. But that was the first time that I was tricked into believing that I was like cheating the game and kind of solving this amazing mystery and trying to like compare it to something else, but I can't. I just think it was so brilliant how it, it, it tricked me as a player to, to think, wow, I, I'm going to go against what this game wants me to do. I'm going to do my own thing. And, and how that built. I also think the ending is, is magnificent. It is a wonderful story from beginning to end. And I. Oh my God. And the, the puzzles in one are also awesome. So this might come back to haunt me, but I just like one the most.

[Dan]

Mary, I'm with you. I think one's the way to go here because, you know, because the way it was released, it didn't really have to sell itself. Cuz like you're going to buy the orange box based on like, oh, here's Team Fortress. Here's Half Life and the episodes and everything. It's like, oh, here's this bonus little thing.

[Mary]

So people, this bonus little weird thing.

[Dan]

Little puzzle game me. Oh, cool. Make portals. That's cool. And then it just blew everyone away. And you know, in a time where people didn't really say meme as much, it launched a million memes and everything.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Dan]

And then so I feel like with 2, it was almost kind of that like Wayne's World 2 or Austin Powers 2 thing where it's just like, okay, we're gonna do like, we're gonna have a little song at the end. We know we're gonna have a bunch of goofy, you know, fun jokes and stuff in the middle. Whereas like, I thought it was a little more endearing in the first one when I didn't expect it, when it was like, oh, this game's like silly and weird and it's kind of like breaking the fourth wall a little bit. And oh, there's this weird song at the end where it's like the second one was like, well, yeah, of course they're gonna do this. Like, that's the, this is the tone. This fits with the tone. Whereas the first one you didn't know the tone yet and it was more kind of surprising to learn that stuff. Yeah. So yeah like maybe as a whole Portal 2 might be a better game but I remember one more fondly, you know.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. Titanfall 2 is mine, I believe.

[Dan]

Yes.

[Mike]

I still, I still think about that multiplayer often. Especially how well they employed like fighting game recognition. The campaign's incredible but like the multiplayer the. The way you can recognize a. A Scorch from a distance as opposed to a Monarch and know that you're going to have to counter them a certain way. And there's their weaknesses. When they call down the max, it still such a thrill to call down a mech from space, jump into it and then your pilots in it. All of a sudden you're launching like shoulder mounted flames and then just shooting explosives at tiny little pilots near you.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

The campaign is just one of the most, I don't want to say underrated. Anybody who's played it knows it's really good, but it's like overlooked often in the face of other shooters. I sometimes forget it compared to Halo, Half Life 2, Gears of War, etc. But, but like yeah the, the, the interplay between how good it feels to be a pilot, but also how good and powerful it feels to be in a Titan is incredible.

[Dan]

The mobility is insane too as well. So good how fast you can be.

[Mary]

And how strong you can be depending on the Titan you choose.

[Dan]

So fun perks and stuff where it's like you're wall running then like stick a knife into the wall and like snipe down.

[Mike]

Yeah. And for like, for Vince Zampella, the people who made call of duty 4 to go over and do that but add the other layer of you're not just prestiging, you're not prestige but like you're not just ranking up all these individual pilot handheld weapons and the pilot perks and the equipment. You're also doing it for all six of these Titans that all have very different. They might as well. It might as well be a hero shooter once you get into them. Or again a fighting game. You see a Scorch Monarch. I'm forgetting some of the, some of the other names right now but the one with the more like semi automatic rifle or the sniper rifle and you're ranking them up individually and whatnot and you can customize them their look it put your stamp on them as well in a way that you could in call of duty 4. So for them to come over and make that was. Was great but like I'm not gonna sit here and say it's better than Portal by any means, but Titanfall 2 is still. When they brought the servers back online a few years ago, I was. Me and Rob Hanlory were. I don't know anybody in the world. World More like happier than us, too. That day we jumped in and it was. It was really good.

[Dan]

It holds up like crazy. We did a stream like, a year ago on Giant Bomb, and we were all like, holy. Why are we not playing this all the time? This is incredible.

[Mike]

Like, I had my favorite Titan. I was a Scorch main. Rob. Rob had his. Oh, man. I had.

[Mary]

That was an era.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

I was getting Doritos double XP codes.

[Mike]

Yeah, but. But no Portal. Portal deserves that spot as well. Well, yeah. Okay.

[Mary]

Portal. Okay, agreed. Portal wins over Titanfall 2. The next one.

[Dan]

Now. Why is she smiling?

[Mike]

Why is she grinning?

[Mary]

Hades versus Metal Gear Solid 2 Sons of Liberty.

[Mike]

Wait, who put Hades? Is that you?

[Mary]

I did.

[Mike]

Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, It's. Oh.

[Mary]

Hades is like.

[Mike]

Because he likes. He likes. He might like Hades more than we do.

[Mary]

Hades was our game of the year.

[Mike]

Oh, we did not talk about it. That was our first game of the year.

[Mary]

It was. It was the one that kind of actually launched us as a podcast, so I think it's internally valuable to each one of us. It's. It's also, hilariously, the one we didn't discuss. Us. So we did game of the year originally, and we debated very intensely our first 10 through number two, and then just never. We actually, like, famously just forgot to talk about Hades. Or maybe we just didn't.

[Mike]

We remember. And then we're like, oh, it was.

[Dan]

Unnecessary by the end because it was.

[Mary]

It was. It's so renowned, and we just. We spent so many hours in it, and I think we still look very fondly on Hades. So, yeah, I put it on here.

[Mike]

It's. I did not put it on mine. Kind of. Maybe strategic's the wrong word, but, like, I figured. I thought Dan had it on there. Honestly, I like it a lot.

[Mary]

He didn't.

[Mike]

I love Hades. I'm willing to be swayed to Metal Gear, but, like, okay, God damn Hades. Still.

[Mary]

It's Hades.

[Dan]

Hades.

[Mike]

One of the top five games I want to play right now that I wasn't even thinking about up until right.

[Dan]

Right now. I. I put a lot of stock into anything. Games, movies, anything, or people that are just unlike anything else. And metal gear solid 2, even in the series of Metal Gear Solid, is unlike anything else I've seen. First of all, the marketing was the craziest ever because you're coming off Metal Year solid one, which I made the argument for that earlier and how it just was a giant shift in what people expected from games. And then just three years later, they're coming out with this game game because it's on PS2 that looks. It looked like Witchcraft when you saw that E3 trailer. It's like, how could games possibly look this fucking good? And they put out a demo on Zone of the Enders and people can play it. And I'm playing that demo over and over and again. Witchcraft. It was just insane. The amount of detail, graphical prowess, all this stuff. And they're setting up this very intriguing story. And then you play it and it does maybe the boldest thing a video game has ever done, where you take this universally beloved character of Solid Snake, you promote this game as like Solid Snake's next adventure. And it's like, holy, you liked him back then. Check them now. Everything's cooler now. Bigger stakes, all this. You're Solid Snake again. And then to take this beloved character and then a couple hours in, be like, nope, sorry, you're not him. You're this dweeb that everyone hates. And they fucking mark the mark. The trailers, they lied. They straight up lied in the trailers showing scenes that don't happen to make people think that they're Solid Snake the whole time. And it's not just a cheap gotcha thing it play. I'm not going to spend. I could spend hours talking about the themes and stuff that this game is doing, but the idea of the player's relationship to the character and things like that and just the nature of video games and stuff, it all plays into. Into that and it plays beautifully into the story in a way that I hated back then because every. I don't think anyone was ready for that game back then because it's just like, what the fuck? Why aren't we Solid Snake? And it took me years of replaying it and reading about it and talking on forums about this to understand what Kojima was trying to do with this and what was he trying to do? It's. It's very complex. And again, like, I don't know how. Like I could. If. If you want to spend the next.

[Mary]

Know what he's trying to do?

[Mike]

No, no, no. More importantly, do you think he knows.

[Dan]

What he was trying to do? Raiden is this player surrogate where he has basically played a solid Snake through the VR stuff. There's no short way to do this. It is unbelievably complex. But to be so bold to take like it would be bold if this was an indie project and they did this but like Metal Gear Solid was the biggest fucking thing. And then a few years later to just throw all of it on its head and take such a radio risk, the likes of which people still haven't done since. And then even with the narrative itself to nowadays, you know, we're talking before social media, you know, 2001, a lot of these codex and stuff, these conversations you'll see people repost nowadays because it's insanely prescient. The stuff that they were saying about what I mean that was the first time I ever heard the word meme. I mean this is four years before I had heard of Facebook, you know, and them talking about how the proliferation of memes and online culture and divisions kind of splintering off and echo chambers and stuff and the effect that's going to have on the world and human interaction and stuff, which at the time every review and everybody I talked to was just lol, Kojima's crazy. What's he talking about? And then you go back and you look at this shit in 2025 and it's like, oh my fucking God, how did this happen in 2001? While at the same time remaining an incredibly engaging video game. Like, you know, there are criticisms I would have. I don't think the selection of boss fights and everything in characters. Characters is as strong as one or three. But in terms of just a fascinating forward thinking, bold, unlike anything else experiment. There is nothing like it in entertainment. I think so. I don't know. It's. I put it. It's probably number two. When I was, I was putting over, you know, Metal Gear Solid one as the like number one impactful thing I had ever felt in games. This is right. The is like 1B, you know. And I, I think it is probably the game. You know, we always talk about games aging well or whatever and like it still feels good. Mario World feels good to play Metal gear solid 2 ages so well because you look back and you just are more impressed at the he was trying to do with that game. And it, it just feels better as time goes on.

[Mary]

Now you did say that the boss fights weren't perfect.

[Dan]

Oh, it is not a perfect game.

[Mary]

Great. I just wanted to rehash that point because I believe that Hades is one of the most perfectly designed games of all time. I think the boss fights are so, so intricate and wonderful to replay and it is a really awesome experience to Have a unique build as a player. Right. You will. You're forced to play it differently each time because of the way that game is designed. Mind. You cannot play the same build each time. You can't make yourself. The game will push you into new builds. So playing that game and facing each of those bosses with a different loadout, making you rethink how you can fight each of those bosses with your unique builds. It's fresh each and every time. And the boss fights are incredible. Especially the final one where you take on Zeus. God damn, what a finale. To even get to Zeus is such a marvel. But when you actually have that vibe that you think you can beat Zeus and then they're like, now it's just new game. Plus like this game was expertly crafted. It is the best of Supergiant man.

[Mike]

It was Hades, right? Just to just. Yeah, yeah. No, you said Zeus, not Hades too.

[Mary]

What does he fight? He fights his dad.

[Mike]

Yeah, Hades.

[Mary]

Oh, right. Who's Zeus?

[Mike]

I don't think Zeus is in the game.

[Mary]

You're Hades. The player is Hades.

[Mike]

No, you're. They made up. Zach.

[Dan]

Angostera. What's.

[Mike]

Oh, you're right, Bitters. Now your dad is Hades, the God of the underworld. But the game, right.

[Mary]

Who's the Zeus? I guess he does Zeus.

[Dan]

That's got it.

[Mary]

I think he does Zeus like things.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm just clarifying for.

[Mary]

You're right. I guess I thought that Zagreus.

[Mike]

Zagreus.

[Mary]

Zagreus fight. You fight Hades.

[Mike]

Mezcal.

[Mary]

And that's a really tough final boss fight. I guess I thought it was Zeus. He's kind of.

[Mike]

The brilliance of it is it can sometimes be semi easy because you built your.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

The grass is so well.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Which is cool that the game like.

[Dan]

A great rogue light. I feel like, you know, dead cells. Hades, like you can break it. And that's part of the joy is like, oh, this build is up. I love this.

[Mary]

It was kind of before that was a thing too. Like I. Hades was before Breath of the Wild where it was like, oh, are you like allowed to do this?

[Dan]

No, it wasn't.

[Mary]

I'm going to stop making 2017. I'm a mess.

[Mike]

It was before like Balatro though. Like Balatro is definitely like roguelike in.

[Mary]

That like crazy when you were able to break the game. But it was designed for you to be able to do that.

[Mike]

No, wait, you're right. Breath of the Wild came out. Oh yeah. Breath of the Wild came out.

[Dan]

Hades was like 2020.

[Mike]

Okay. Gotcha.

[Dan]

Although Technically, I guess Hades might have been in, like, Early Access or something, but yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

Just to give you where my head's at, I, like, had Hades more, but I do think Dan had a stronger argument.

[Mary]

Yeah, but he has a strong argument about all of these games, for sure.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Hades is like, he did this before with Snake Eater and was like, no.

[Mike]

I voted for Snake Eater. I just. Because I like Snake.

[Mary]

I know. I'm just saying.

[Mike]

No, I just can't. You know what I mean?

[Mary]

Like, there's not six hollow knights that I get to cry over. But he's cried over each one of these little bad babies. And I just think, like, at some point they're not all getting in.

[Mike]

Sure. I think he's like, I don't know. I, I don't.

[Mary]

He's shoving so many in the door, we can't stop them all.

[Mike]

I just think Hades is on an undeniably good game. And I, I don't remember a single moment in Hades where I wasn't enjoying it. Metal Gear Solid 2 I absolutely love and it's lofty fear in its goals and uneven. Uneven for sure. And again, it comes down to, like, do I, do I value the peaks of Metal Gear Solid two more or this, the consistent greatness of Hades and like, oh, man.

[Dan]

I would almost make the argument that, like, you know, we've brought up the ice cream thing several times and I'm usually Mr. Ice Cream when it comes to games. Just instant, you know, gratification every everything. And in this rare circumstance, I think Hades is the ice cream. And I'm arguing against it because I feel like Meteor Solid 2 is such an anomaly and I feel like it's important to the industry in the history.

[Mike]

Of games of the two, sure. But I would say, like, calling Hades ice cream is kind of underselling how genius. A lot of it is, like, I shouldn't say genius, but, like, no, it's close to perfect on the level of, like, spelunky. How I was talking about in, like, the way they can balance. Even, like, the weak builds are interesting because you're like, okay, this doesn't synergize with that. I, I, I, I think I've probably put like, all of us at least 100 hours into Hades at this point. And I, I, I think I would still learn something new if I played an hour tonight, which is just incredible to me. I, I, I think Hades is mine as well. Your argument for Metal Gear Solid two was very good. It was better than your MGS one.

[Dan]

Well, and that's this thing's less than like, you know, because I love Hades.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

I didn't like the Witcher, you know. Yeah. Yeah. This. This thing's less. It still hurts. But hey, I still got three is alive, right?

[Mike]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, but yeah, Hades is just like. Hades is just one of the best video games.

[Dan]

It's really fucking good.

[Mike]

Yeah. I think intent. I think five years from now we're gonna start like putting it up there with. I mean, we already are talking about it in the breath of some of the best games ever, but like.

[Dan]

Well, you just put it above fucking Metal Gear 2.

[Mike]

Yeah, true. Yeah. This is.

[Dan]

It's.

[Mike]

This is when it fully shines.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Mike]

And I. It is a battle not to try to in early Access, but I really just want to wait until day one.

[Dan]

I haven't. Yeah. I messed around for like an hour or two and I was like, here you hearing.

[Mike]

I'm hearing good things about how she plays differently than Zagreus, so I'm looking forward to it. But yeah.

[Dan]

Yep.

[Mary]

I am glad to hear that we have concluded that Hades beats out metal gear solid two. Sons of Liberty. We still have four more.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Dan]

And then that's a podcast.

[Mary]

That's round one.

[Dan]

Oh, yeah.

[Mary]

Our next match up. Golden Eye 007 versus Silent Hill two.

[Dan]

Oh, Golden Eye.

[Mary]

You didn't think about it?

[Dan]

It's golden. Yeah, I know. That's. That's easy. Look, I Respect Silent Hill 2. Good job. It's nice. Sad game.

[Mary]

Good job.

[Dan]

Golden Eyes. Golden eyes.

[Mary]

I remember that exactly.

[Dan]

Golden Eyes. Golden Eye.

[Mike]

Nice sad game. And then all of a sudden, there's Vince McMahon. Man comes out, Golden Eye.

[Dan]

Golden Eye.

[Mike]

He's gonna. He's gonna golden. He's gonna o. I mean, go. Because I. I mean, I'm not even.

[Dan]

Golden Eye.

[Mike]

Golden Eye. You're gonna have to fight for this because I. Goldeneye was on my list as well, I think.

[Dan]

Which one has Zeno top?

[Mike]

Good point.

[Mary]

2 also has sexy ladies. Maria is in it. She's trying to get up all in that butt hill too.

[Mike]

Tokyo also has an Eiffel Tower, but which one do we talk about? Sorry, continue. You.

[Mary]

No, I'm losing the.

[Dan]

You're up against goldeneye.

[Mary]

Okay. Dan talks about the story and, like, how powerful the story is. There's probably no other story that's talked about more when it comes to the horror genre and games than Silent Hill 2. It's the most iconic story where you. The protag. And I'm gonna. It's like, how do I do this without spoiling it like the point is, is that you are slowly descending into Hell Hill and learning over time while you're killing all of these terrible beasts and like monsters and, and, and discovering terrible things about the other people who are in Silent Hill for awful reasons, you are slowly coming to the realization that you are not a good person and that Silent Hill is your hell. And it. I think it's one of the first games that I played where I. I over the course of the story, really recognized and loathed my own character. You still play as them and you kind of still solve is beloved in terms of game storytelling that the way that you play this game will ultimately determine your ending. How much time you spend with Maria can actually give you a better ending. Whether or not you kill the final boss, you actually can choose not to and take pity on them and be there for them. All of that actually impacts the type of outcome for your character, which is so fascinating and why all of the alternate endings for Silent Hill get mass amounts of views. Because it's really interesting to see how you choose to play this out in this just dark and desolate and despicable world world. It is. It is evil and it really deals with some dark. There are children. There are very mature themes in this game that I didn't think you could do in video games and get away with. Very serious topics are. Are in Silent Hill 2 and I think they're done with grace. I mean that like, honestly in the sense that like some of these things you might like laugh at or scoff at and you don't laugh at what they're talking about in Silent Hill. Like very serious, intense topics. But somehow even though you're like switching between your shotgun and your, you know, your sniper rifle or whatever it is that you have, you are taking the situation very seriously. I think it does it with grace and dignity for these characters. And so I think it's a monumental achievement in, in story and character design that GoldenEye doesn't have any of that. It's just really fun to play.

[Dan]

Well, no, I mean if you're Odd Job in multiplayer, you can chop dudes in the nuts and it's very annoying.

[Mike]

For your friends if you throw a knife straight. It goes right into Jaws's nuts too.

[Dan]

Yeah, that's a good time. Yeah. Slappers only. Yeah.

[Mike]

I like Silent Hill too, a lot. But like gold mine.

[Mary]

I wanna you be really careful with how you what you say next because your next words are going to be muffled by your own golden eye.

[Mike]

Gold Knight created a genre.

[Dan]

Yeah, it was the first first person shooter. Everyone knows this.

[Mike]

No, it brought the, the PC shooters, Doom, Wolfenstein, Quake, two consoles, which nobody thought was possible at the time, but also just we're talking communal experiences, like how hard that game went on split screen. I mean it didn't have a choice to go anything but split screen in terms of multiplayer at the time. But like the map variety for its multiplayer, the picking between characters, getting fucking pissed when someone went Odd job because they were shorter than everybody else and you couldn't shoot them. But like, yeah, I don't know, it was, it was a communal. It was a communal experience on par with like a precursor to Combat Evolved LAN parties, which is more of a personal experience. But.

[Dan]

Yeah, but speaking of personal experiences, like, you know how much I love Mario and did as a, you know, little child and stuff and I still didn't get a 64 when it came out. 64 launched with Mario 64. I played that at a Target kiosk and was like, this is the craziest shit I've ever seen. But I still like realistically could not afford it. You know, there's just not like I was not able to play it outside of a Target kiosk or a friend's place. Mario Kart came out. I love Mario Kart still. I can't, there's no way I can get a 64. I can't afford this thing. I played Goldeneye and I went to a couple friends places after sixth grade and played Goldeneye. And I was like, I need to find a way, way to make this happen. And I don't remember if that was mowing lawns or selling a bunch of old games or something, but it was like, you know, at a time where resources were limited in terms of like my money and my resources, I was like, whatever it takes, I have to have this game in my house. So I held off the Mario loving ass that I was on N64 until I played GoldenEye. And I was like, well, there's not a choice anymore. This is the coolest shit. And especially like I again, you talk about first person shooters and Doom and all that stuff. I had these shitty computers. I was not part of that FPS. You know, the early days of that. I did play some Doom and Wolfenstein, but in terms of like having something on that level, like when it's new and relevant, goldeneye was the one where it's like, I have to have this whatever the cost, I have to. And it was so much fucking fun. Campaign, multiplayer. It just was the full package.

[Mike]

Yeah. And I love Doom and Wolfenstein, but I don't think shooters would not be nearly as big as they are today if it wasn't for goldeneye.

[Dan]

Golden Eye is the predecessor to Halo, to Call of Duty, to.

[Mike]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And also like the, the main missions, the campaign missions for how they adapted the movie. And I, I didn't see that movie for years after I had played the game many, many times. But like not all of it is age well. But there's some really cool objective stuff where it's like the train yard. It's like, all right, I gotta find the black box. But that won't trigger Trevellian until I get to this area. And then all of a sudden I'm surrounded by guys on the edge of this area in the dark that I didn't see all. And you know, a lot of this is through rose tinted glasses of course, because it's the N64. But so much of the, the storytelling they got across in that, in the mission design was really impressive for 90.

[Dan]

97 7. Yeah. And also like the difficulty stuff. Every game's difficulty settings were typically like, the enemies have more health and they hit you more and you take more damage. Damage. This was between Agent, Secret Agent, Double O Agent. It was like the difference between on the dam, you just run to the dam and jump off to. Oh, I need to go here and go into this whole area I didn't have to go to before and I had to disable these alarms. Like you see parts of the level and do things that you wouldn't do if you're playing on a lower difficulty. So there was so much depth to the campaign.

[Mike]

Yeah, they did that in time. Sweaters too again.

[Dan]

Yeah, yeah. No, Free Radical and all that stuff. Like they were fantastic at that. And yeah, not that I even mentioned the multiplayer which. Which was maybe the thing it's most known for.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

Golden Eyes. Yeah, a top 10.

[Mike]

Gotta go. Golden Eye.

[Dan]

Yeah, Golden Eye.

[Mary]

Okay. GoldenEye wins over Silent Hill too. Our next matchup, Diablo 2 versus Super Mario 64.

[Dan]

Oh, come on now.

[Mary]

Come on now.

[Dan]

Let'S not be silly.

[Mike]

Can I. I don't need a full break. I just want to run to the. I think this is you two.

[Dan]

Oh, as far as the argument. Wait, do you have a horse?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Oh, oh, then it's winning.

[Mike]

Okay, I like.

[Dan]

We don't even need to talk about it then.

[Mike]

Diablo 2 quite a bit. But Mary, if you want to. Is Diablo 2 yours?

[Dan]

Can you do A nice concession speech for Diablo.

[Mary]

I mean, one of the greatest stories ever told of Devil Bad. You are. You become the devil. You.

[Dan]

Oh, I've never played nothing.

[Mary]

You would know.

[Mike]

Yeah. Who would have thought he would have talked that definitively about such a loser?

[Mary]

I.

[Dan]

You have a wing cap.

[Mary]

This is like an iconic game.

[Mike]

Making it worse that your furnace is going off while every time you talk.

[Mary]

Right now, I know every time just like a little teapot is boiling behind, behind his stupid head. I mean, I think it's, this is silly. I think, like, we were just, like, fighting about, like, how iconic GoldenEye was and like, how, how it was like the pinnacle. Like, it, like, inspired all these games. Diablo was like the ultimate of its time as well, of being able to, I don't know, just mass kill mass hordes of the undead for its time in lots of different ways. And being able to, like, compile different types of fighting styles. Deciding your character first of all was very iconic and important, but then adding to your weapon. This is like a game I played. You played this obsessively in your basement. You played this with your friends, and everyone talked about what happened. You played this with your dad or, like, with your parents or like, with your older brother. Other. This is like the game that everybody in their family households like, talked about with each other. This game is iconic. I think it's more iconic than Super Mario 64. I think that it's more important. I said what I said. I actually think Diablo.

[Dan]

That's a hard argument to make. I think maybe the most.

[Mike]

I think Diablo 2 important too. But yeah, Mario 64 like, proved 3D could work.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's like the single biggest technological leap in the history of the industry.

[Mary]

I mean, and also they nailed it the first time. Like, okay, like, there's another one of him. There's more. There's another dimension that Diablo was, like, iconic for its time. It, like, changed the way we perceived, like, the depth of these styles of video games plus the story depth.

[Dan]

Mario 64 literally added a D. Yeah, that's like three.

[Mary]

That's just like one. That's so superficial.

[Mike]

One D. Mary, I love you so much, and I any I would follow your Diablo too, but I feel like you're just, like, willfully being stubborn.

[Dan]

It's like the worst possible game you could be going against with this argument.

[Mary]

I just disagree. I don't think. I never played this stupid game. Mario, drown.

[Mike]

Just trying to kill him is what you're doing.

[Dan]

What?

[Mike]

Yeah, I, I, I feel like you've gotten A few bad ones in a row, Mary, with your matchups. But like I. This one was doa, I think.

[Dan]

Oh yeah. There. There's many games on this list. You could have had an argument with Diablo, but Mario 64.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dan]

There's anything left to be said about Diablo, feel free. The stage is yours.

[Mary]

I think it's a better game and you can go yourself. Mario Super 64 beats Diablo 2. Fine. All right, we have two more mashups. Do you need to.

[Mike]

Yeah, I need to go now.

[Mary]

Gather my tears. All right.

[Mike]

And we're back. We have two more matchups. In the first round.

[Mary]

In the first round.

[Mike]

Is this like potentially a part one and two thing or.

[Mary]

No, it might be going to have to see how we go here.

[Dan]

I think it's going to move fast once we. Because keep in mind, I think after this first round, I think in terms of the matchups, we are like half done.

[Mary]

We'll see.

[Dan]

Done these before and I think it's like 65 matchups for 64 entrance.

[Mary]

We'll see how you feel. Because some of the secondary matchups are going to be brutal.

[Mike]

Yeah. But these are going to be. That's going to be like Majora versus. Like these are going to be the games we really care about.

[Dan]

We've laid the groundwork for why they were played.

[Mary]

The groundwork.

[Mike]

We'll see. Yeah. Let's reassure address after the next round.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mary]

So the next one is Resident Evil 2 remake versus Metro Last Light.

[Mike]

I mean I can speed Metro's you right, Mike? They both are. Okay. I can speed this one along. It's Resident Evil 2 remake.

[Mary]

I won't fight that at all.

[Mike]

Quite possibly the. Honestly the best remake of all time. I think over Resident Evil 1 remake, I would have to say. Yeah. Metro Last Light. If you're looking for. If you Love Half Life 2 and you a lot of shooters just aren't doing it for you and you're looking for like the true spiritual successor. I've said this for a long time. Metro Last Light is the actual spiritual successor to Half Life 2. It's the best thing you could play as a shooter. And before Half Life 3 comes out, if it ever comes out, it's. It's the first metro 2033. Really rough around the edges. Metro Last Light. Incredible linear. But then there's these open ended sequences. You're also managing like survival light elements in incredibly atmospheric underground and above ground post apocalyptic wasteland in Russia. Exodus is great, but I feel like it definitely lost something of the craft when it went away from the linearity of Last Light, but. Yeah. God. Resident Evil 2 remake. I'll save everything I want to say for next round, but that's.

[Dan]

Yeah. If you liked Half Life 2, but you wish you had to press a button every five minutes to make Gordon Freeman wipe his glasses is off, then you love Metro.

[Mike]

Exactly. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, the second one.

[Dan]

I hated every Metro game I've ever played.

[Mary]

Great. Resident Evil 2 remake wins over Metro. Last Light. Our final.

[Mike]

I know one game that's going to be in this. It has not come up yet.

[Mary]

Our final matchup is, like, I haven't heard Mario enough. Doom vs the Legend of Zelda. Breath of the Wild.

[Mike]

It was Breath of the Wild.

[Dan]

Wild.

[Mike]

I was like, we haven't talked about Breath of Wild yet.

[Dan]

Wow.

[Mary]

A little weird.

[Mike]

Doom 2016.

[Dan]

The dirty draw for doom 2016.

[Mike]

Doom.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And you put that in there.

[Dan]

No, I did not.

[Mary]

I did. I did that based on popular demand, and I actually was thinking it should be the original because it was pretty important.

[Dan]

Oh, it's incredibly important.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

What are you gonna say, though?

[Mary]

I know, I know. It got. It got a dirty draw. I think it actually would have won over some other games just because it is. It has a very important origin, and it was kind of timeless. Much like Diablo, I would say, like, this was the game that, like, when I walked into my cousin's room and they were playing this, everybody shut the fuck up and watched them play Doom. Like, Doom was fucking sick. It did a lot. It was very important. I. It is so hard to come up against Breath of the Wild, though. So.

[Dan]

Yep. Bad Drop Gold.

[Mike]

I wouldn't exist without Doom. I know in many ways, games wouldn't exist without Doom.

[Mary]

We should have put goldeneye against Doom instead of Silent Hill. One would say. Okay, you guys ready for round two? That's it.

[Dan]

Let's do it.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Mary]

There were some games that didn't make it. I don't know if you want to do any honorable mentions. If you were like, I w. I. I'm like, so sad.

[Dan]

Marios weren't there. Mario Mario 2, Mario Sunshine, Mario Galaxy 1.

[Mary]

Yep.

[Dan]

Mario 3D World.

[Mary]

I promised I would do up to 15, and I did as many as I could. Like, I think I got up to, like, 18 for most of us, we talked about Free Radical, Twisted Metal 2. Didn't make it. Castlevania, Symphony of the Night. Didn't make it. Mortal Kombat 2. Didn't make it. Batman, Arkham Asylum, Kingdom Hearts, Warframe, Kingdom Heart, Kingdom Hearts.

[Mike]

That was my honorable mention. I love Kingdom Hearts. The first game, I wanted to put.

[Mary]

Outer wild, but I. I killed off.

[Mike]

My own Gilbert Godfrey when I said that.

[Dan]

The idea of you playing Kingdom, you're way too cool.

[Mike]

I don't. I don't like any of them except for the first game, and it's all nostalgia. It's all nostalgia.

[Mary]

I cut Mass Effect. I think that was a tough one.

[Mike]

Mass Effect 2 is. Oh, yeah. Mass Effect 2 is really.

[Dan]

No, it's fine.

[Mary]

I know, but it didn't even hit your 20s. So to me, I was like, it can't be that important if it didn't hit any of our top 20.

[Mike]

I don't know what the hottest take is tonight. That Diablo 2 is more important than Mario 64 or Dan saying Metal Gear Solid is the best story in any medium ever.

[Dan]

I will. I will die on that hill.

[Mike]

You're going to die.

[Mary]

You're going to die on a hill.

[Dan]

Keep in mind, I know, like, 14 stories.

[Mike]

I know.

[Mary]

What are you gonna do, shoot me? Said man right before he was shot.

[Mike]

Anyway. Okay, yeah. Time Splitters two would have been fun, but I. Yeah, Anyway. All right.

[Mary]

Okay, cool. I'm moving on to round two. Round two, start. I'm gonna start back at the top. So these won't shock you because these were the winners. Tet Tetris versus Dishonored 2.

[Dan]

All right, Mike, we're gathered here in this branch.

[Mike]

No. Dishonored to some of the best. I mean, it's up there with Hitman World Assassination, like level design. Holy shit. Cracking the Slab and the Clockwork Mansion are. I still don't know how Arcane pulled it off. Arcane's one of the most underappreciated developers around today, period. Even with all the critical adoration, Deathloop got Dishonored to being able to play both Corvo and Emily in one of the most unique video game worlds established by Dishonored one. With, like, the whaling industry and the steampunk meets Victorian meets supernatural. I. I absolutely think Dishonored 2 is the best immersive sim ever.

[Dan]

Still.

[Mike]

Unless you count Hitman World Assassination as immersive sims, which I kind of do. It's phenomenal. But it's not Tetris. It still holds up really well. I just. Like I said, I played it a couple weeks ago. I started a new campaign a couple weeks ago. Tetris.

[Dan]

Tetris.

[Mary]

Tetra S. Tetris. Tetris, you bad bitch. You go against Dishonored and win. Tetris wins. Against Dishonored 2.

[Dan]

You know, I've read and heard so many bad takes about video games over the years. Years. I still have yet to see the earnest like let me tell you why Tetris is bad.

[Mike]

I can think of a few people who would write it and try to.

[Dan]

But I think we know some folks. But yeah, I want to see that earnestly attempted.

[Mike]

God, I want, I'm. What if I like, I'm not going to do this. But what if I broke off and like started my own Patreon and that was my first article. Like Tetris is terrible.

[Dan]

Tetris is bad.

[Mary]

Tetris is bad. Actually, if you like Tetris, you're bad at games.

[Mike]

If you're like Tetris, then you're a.

[Mary]

Communist.

[Mike]

I was gonna say communist.

[Mary]

Some kind of like nonsensical argument that really heats him up.

[Dan]

It's Russian. Yeah, the commie stuff.

[Mike]

I shouldn't do voices. What's the next matchup?

[Mary]

The next matchup is what's gonna match.

[Mike]

Up against Tetris next round.

[Dan]

Oh yeah. What's gonna die.

[Mary]

Metroid prime versus Command and Conquer. Red alert 2.

[Mike]

Oh fuck. Which one has a better chance to. No, I'm not, I shouldn't think ahead.

[Dan]

Look, yeah, let's not think ahead. I think in the short term I know for this podcast specifically there is some serious love for Red Alert 2.

[Mike]

I, I, yeah, that's my vote. I care so much more about it than Metroid Prime. I think Metroid Prime's fucking radio.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Red Alert 2 is the gift that keeps on giving. Incredible one on one multiplayer. Just I, I also one thing we didn't talk about first round. So many strategy games are so overly concerned with balance and I'm, I, I know it's a, I'm not, I don't mean to say this game's in balance, but it really is. There's no population. There's no population cap. Meaning you can make as big of an army as your computer can handle. Which at the 500 Rocketeers. Yep. That, that game is just like GI Joe. Like we can. You can make whatever the you want. If you can make it bigger and faster than your enemy, you're probably gonna win. But also they might have laser anti air towers that can you up and there's gonna be.

[Dan]

But what if you made a bunch of blimps?

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, it's right. Alert. It's red alert too for me.

[Dan]

It's red alert too.

[Mary]

What was it even going against Metroid Metro prime veteran prime is fucking incredible.

[Dan]

It's incredible. Like, okay, we're at that point where every game that is coming up, we're probably all going to be like, yeah, that game's incredible. Yeah. But alert.

[Mary]

Okay, I. I don't think I'm.

[Dan]

Go play Prime. If you haven't played prime, there's remastered right there. I want to replay Metro, play the remaster.

[Mary]

It's phenomenal. The map is insane. Like, you'll lose your. When you look at the map at the end of this game.

[Dan]

So good.

[Mary]

All right. Red Alert two wins over Metroid prime against Tetris. You guys are breaking my soul.

[Dan]

Oh, Mike, we have to do the funniest thing.

[Mike]

Yeah. No, no. No agendas.

[Mary]

Be reasonable.

[Mike]

Sorry, I just.

[Mary]

I think you guys are laughing too much. Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater vs Stardew Valley. Valley.

[Dan]

Oh, look, I like Stardew a lot.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Dan]

Let's be real.

[Mike]

You know what? I am actually, I think I'm swayable on this one. I love Metal Gear to a point.

[Dan]

Okay, here's. Okay. Stardew Valley was my game of the year 2015. The big hit I would give against it, which did not impact my enjoyment of the game in the least, was that it was intentionally and unapologetically. This isn't a bad thing. Derivative of Harvest Moon. So it. All the things I loved about it when I played it. If I had just been introduced to Harvest Moon or given it a chance 10, 15 years before, I probably would have fucking loved it. But it just. Just so happened to be my first farming sim. And it does. You know, from people who've played more games in that genre than me, it does seem to be an incredible. One of those. One of the best, if not the best. But it was it. It had other games had laid the groundwork. Whereas Snake Eater was the first Snake Eater, the first thing on that level. So that. That is. If I had to kind of kill one of my babies here, I. That's what I would say about Stardo.

[Mary]

What do you mean? It was the first Snake Eater. Stardew was the first Stardo, like Snake Eater first. Like, you know, I don't. Whatever stupid game it is where it's like a. Describe what makes it so innovative because it's.

[Mike]

This is third in an outdoor stealth was huge at the time.

[Mary]

It's the third in a Metal Gear.

[Dan]

But it's. It's. It's very unlike one and two.

[Mike]

It's my favorite.

[Mary]

But it's not. But it's. This isn't Harvest Moon 3. This is the first Stardew. This is the first in its universe.

[Dan]

Right. But like, the format and what you're doing is incredibly reminiscent of what you do in Harvest Moon, whereas it's not.

[Mary]

Incredibly reminiscent of what you do in Metal Gear.

[Dan]

I mean, you are sneaking around, you are killing guys and stuff like that, but the setting, the way the story is laid out, the time frame and everything, like, there is. There is a lot that Snake Eater does to differentiate itself from Metal Gear Solid one and two for sure. Like there's. I can't think of a game before Snake Eater that feels just like Snake Eater Eater. Whereas Harvest Moons are incredibly similar to Stardew Valley. From look to gameplay to format. Absolutely. But it's not about innovative. It is about our favorite. And that's what it comes down to. And I just think Snake Eater.

[Mike]

No. The best game.

[Dan]

Yes, yes, I. Stardew Valley is very, very, very, very good. I love that game. Metal gear solid 3. The moments, gameplay moments I had will stick with me. And then the story itself is as much as they say, like, oh, Metal Gear is the best story ever. The story specifically of Snake Eater is the best story I've ever seen in a game.

[Mike]

Mary, for the record, I'm not like decided for. I love Metal Gear. Snake Eater is my favorite. But I like Metal Gear to a point. I don't adore it as much as Dan does. I love Stardew as well.

[Mary]

I think every Metal Gear has its little foibles, right? They're not perfect games and they have like, flaws. Stardew is quintessential. It is just one of these iconic games that doesn't really have any issues. You can spend your day fishing. You can spend it in the mines, you can spend it romancing people. You can spend it trying to get a unique item that you can fill your olox with. I love getting the mines and opening up a geode and seeing what you can discover with it. Plus the romance options. This game continues to be updated. It is insane how many updates this game has had over the last 10 years. The guy just keeps adding to it. And it is so intricate that no matter how you choose to spend your day, you have a great day. This game is peaceful, it is calming. It will, like, lower your blood pressure. This game is designed to just give you pure endorphin rushes and make you feel the Sarah. It's like game serotonin. It is so delightful and whimsical. And the music, the visuals, it's all expertly designed to get you to Just. Just enjoy your day in Stardew.

[Mike]

Yeah. But also, if you want to Minmax and be a psychopath who can make those crazy farms BY like, day 14, the. The underlying intricate systems are there for you to have this hydro farm in two weeks. Just. Just not to build on what you're saying. It's also. Can be pretty hardcore if you want it to be.

[Mary]

It's true. My friend Josh plays it totally different than me and Factorio. He plays it like Factorio. And it's kind of insane to watch because I don't play it like that at all. I play it to, like, romance people and make as many friends as I can. And also I do like to make at least some money, but ultimately I just kind of like want to win best prize at the fair because it feels good. And I like to compare complete the Rolodex. Like, I want to complete all the different items that are, you know, in the museum and things like that. So you can play it however you want and still have the best time. I really do think it's also universal. I think everybody who plays that game similarly to Tetris. I just don't see a lot of people saying Stardew sucks. Like, it's just not something people tend to criticize. It's. It's just too wholesome.

[Dan]

You're. You're right in that Sardu, that does not have many flaws. In fact, I'm struggling to kind of think of one. But in terms of, you know, you asking about, like, oh, what did Snake Eater do that was different than one or two or games for it or something like to just narrow in on one specific part of that game. Leading up to the middle of that game, you have been taught basic things like you've got these goggles that are thermal. You've got these things that you should pay attention to in the environment. You've got these binoculars and stuff like that, whatever. So you know how to use this stuff. And then suddenly you are thrust into a thing where you were in a larger area area, and there is a sniper. There is an older sniper that is like 100 years old. He says, ancient dude that's trying to kill you. And you have to take everything the game has taught you leading up to that point to be like, what do I fucking do here? I can't see this guy. He's not like, okay, I'll turn on my radar thing here, but it's picking up all these birds and shit. I don't know which one he is. Turn on the thermal. Things I can't see. Oh, maybe there's some fresh footprints there. But then how it rains, it gets cold. I can't tell there. And so you're just kind of of like walking around very uneasy. Occasionally you're hearing him kind of like bark out at you or taunt you or whatever, or his birds yelling at you or something. And he's got a parrot. It can be. What's that?

[Mike]

He's got like a parrot?

[Dan]

Yeah, his parrot buddy. And you could you that that. There's so many different paths to get this guy. You could kill his parrot and he's mourning the parrot and you sneak up on him and steal his clothes and his gun and everything and choke him out or whatever. Or you can just kind of be like, you know, sitting in a bush, scanning with binoculars, and you see the glint of his scope and you can just shoot this motherfucker in the the head. You can save the game in the middle and come back a week later and he dies of old age.

[Mike]

You could.

[Dan]

Yeah, you could. Like two scenes before that. After a cut scene, he's in a wheelchair, and after the cutscene ends, if you zoom in with your sniper rifle, you can catch him. There's like a brief little window where you see the boss wheeling him to a house. You can shoot him in his wheelchair and he explodes and dies. And you don't have to do the hour long boss, boss fight.

[Mike]

Or you can do it like Drew Scanlan did a Metal Gear Solid and just like freak out and panic and throw a grenade that just actually landed next to him in the jungle. Yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

It's like, you know, Metal Gear Solid three is not an immersive sim, but I feel like it's one of those things everyone's got their stories of like, oh, here's how I did it, you know, and what a remark. Like, you talk about what differentiates it from like 1 and 2. There's nothing like the end fight in. In Metal Gear Solid one or two. Like, there's very few things in games since that are like that fight. And that is the extreme example in three. But there are just so many different things where it's like, oh, if you do this, this weird thing will happen. All these things that I saw that Mike didn't play while he's playing through on top of it just being a killer story from beginning to end. Incredible setting. It's just like, it's. It's unmatched to me.

[Mike]

Yeah. Mary, I'm sorry, I think I voted against you a few in a row. I feel like you're getting bad matchups. But Snake Eater is the one Metal Gear Solid I'll go to bat for. And like just thinking about the end.

[Mary]

Save it for your wife.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

To find her, he has to see if there's footprints in the mud. She has a parrot.

[Mike]

She's. She does hide in the jungle often.

[Dan]

She's a hundred.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Keeps things.

[Mary]

Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater wins over Stardew Valley.

[Mike]

What a. That was a weird matchup.

[Mary]

Yeah. All right. Next matchup. Gears of War versus Super Mario Odyssey. I am taking so many Ls and I feel like you guys can suck my dick. I'm just going to literally do I know Odyssey is going to win? This is a question. I know that.

[Dan]

We all know that Full of everyone's time.

[Mary]

I don't need to be dragged through the muck every goddamn matchup up.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

I love Gears. I love Gears.

[Mary]

Shut up. Next matchup. Super Mario World versus Red Dead Redemption 2.

[Mike]

Oh, this is going to be bad.

[Dan]

That's an insane.

[Mike]

This is going to get.

[Dan]

That is the most video games in 1991 versus 2018.

[Mike]

We're going to to have to talk in circles for an hour to get to the end of this one.

[Dan]

Let's not. Let's. Let's figure this out.

[Mike]

How do we do this, Mary? Where. Give. Just give us a barometer before we make our like opening and closing arguments. Where. What are you leaning toward? Or are you. Or do you literally have no clue? Because this is just stupid.

[Dan]

It's the most opposite.

[Mary]

They're. They're. I've played both of them and they're both fine. And I don't love either of them.

[Mike]

Not what I expected you to say. Okay. That's fine. Fine though.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dan]

I could be swaying about this matchup. The things I love about Mario World where it's just the most dewy ass. I press this button, have fun game ever. It instantly reacts to everything. Is all the I didn't like about Red Dead 2 where it's. I hit the button and then I wait for it to happen. It's just so polar opposite my brain. Even though I have come around on Red Dead to appreciate what it does very well. It is so opposite to me. And like, obviously I'm gonna go Mario World. Obviously. That's my pick.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Obviously I'm gonna go craziest matchup.

[Mike]

I don't even know where to begin. Like to compare them.

[Dan]

No one's ever had to make this decision.

[Mary]

Nobody's ever been Here before.

[Mike]

Okay. This is Super Mario World.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Mario Bros. 3. Okay. No, I have a hard time. This is the best one. This is the second game ever, right.

[Dan]

It's either this or Odyssey is the.

[Mike]

Second or third Mario game ever.

[Dan]

Fourth. Well, Mario, you want to count Fifth? I don't know.

[Mike]

It was super.

[Mary]

I do struggle, though, because we just had Super Mario Odyssey. I mean, well, Odyssey, Switch.

[Dan]

I know that there's a reason he's Mario.

[Mike]

It's the early. Yeah, there's. It's early games. Mario Mario is Mario Bros. Is one.

[Dan]

Well, there was Mario Bros. Well, we're not going to D. Super Mario Brothers. Super Mario Brothers 2 in Japan, which was the last levels here. So that's two different games there. There's Super Mario Brothers 3 and then World was the debut for the Super Nintendo. Yes.

[Mike]

And World is where it really came into its own. I know.

[Dan]

It was Yoshi's debut. Looks awesome. The yellow cape. Yeah.

[Mary]

Oh, yeah. This is a good one.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I don't know. I can, I can. Like, what do I do? What do you do? What are we, what are we talking to you?

[Dan]

How do we, I mean, what do we. It's, it's definitely Mario World to me.

[Mike]

No, I know I'm not going to.

[Dan]

Be anti Red Dead Guy.

[Mike]

I'm not going to be anti Mario. But it's definitely Red Dead for me. I just, I don't know. Red Dead 2 is one of the. I think it's my favorite Western.

[Mary]

Aw.

[Mike]

In anything.

[Dan]

Mine's the Mario Party two Western Land.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

You sick fuck.

[Mary]

What's your favorite Sci Fi? Why, it's Mario.

[Dan]

Oh, Spaceland in Mario PC.

[Mike]

I, I, I. Yeah. I don't know. I'm. Everything I'm saying is not a detraction from whatever Mario game we're talking about. But Super Mario World. I'm joking.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mike]

But at the same time, I, I totally understand that in its, in its moment to moment gameplay, red Dead Redemption 2 can get frustrating. Of course it absolutely can. But also, I just don't think we talk often enough about how many different systems in that game need to coalesce in order for you just to get back to camp. And then Charles be like, oh, there you are. I need. Let's go, let's go. Like, we, we got to go defend these buffalo. The people are hunting. If you stay out away from camp too long, the AI, the game is like, good enough for the AI to come find you. And Bill be like, hey, Dutch is wondering where you are. Like, Dutch is already the character is worried about Arthur's loyalty. Loyalty that is expressed in these systems that work across this massive open world wilderness. You could be camped out in the fucking snowy mountains. And then Bill sees you when you come down out of the slopes. He's like, dude, we've been looking for you. Why the fuck have you not been back in a while? When that happened, that was like, oh, my God. The game is actually like, I was away in the wilderness. I thought. I thought I was alone, and I was from. From all the other characters. But the game is like, oh, okay. He's off doing his own thing camping, and he. He can't. I went up there because I was doing that gunslinger quest with the journalist, and I was doing the shootout to prove I was the faster gun. I came back out and the game, like, knew we're talking about Left 4 Dead 2's director, whatever the fuck magic Rockstar employed there, knew that I came out after in game week away or whatever it was. And then there's someone like, chastising me, being like that also told me me talk about show, don't tell. It's like that showed me that Dutch was already worried about Arthur's loyalty. And then for you to go back to the camp, the number of quests that can also trigger is just astounding because Charles could come up and then Bill could come up, and then Josiah could come up and say, hey, I want to go talk to you about this. And it's not like you have every single option available available to you any given moment. It's. There are just numerous factors of what you just did in Valentine in town, or what you just. What your morality check was on that past decision. Or maybe you just want to fuck off and watch how you can shoot a barrel in the back of your wagon and then light the trail on fire and drive the barrel into an enemy or into, like, a cowboy ambush like you can in, like, Far Cry.

[Dan]

I.

[Mike]

There's so many things to talk about with red Dead Redemption 2, but I think for now it's just. It's. I think the best way I can start is just like, I don't know any other game that can combine that many systems into this, like, believable simulation that just continuously can. Like, I can feel like, I don't know, it's just enveloping, but it's an.

[Dan]

Impossible argument to have that, like, everything you just said is 100 accurate. Like, that is all the stuff that makes Red Dead Redemption 2 beautiful and impressive and everything. And with Mario World, it's like, what am I going to counter that with? Like, oh, man, the Secret Exit and Donut Planes is pretty cool.

[Mike]

Yeah, I know.

[Dan]

It's a much simpler but also super elegant and awesome game in ways that are so different. Yeah, but it's just, it's such a different, like it could be, it could have come out this year and it would still kick ass. But it's in such different ways than Red Dead Redemption 2 is impressive. So it's just, this is a matter of preference.

[Mike]

Mario's minutia and like, moment to moment, just absolute, like chemical cause and effect in your brain. Red Dead's big picture, an orchestra as opposed to that single really good violinist.

[Dan]

I will not play Red Dead Redemption 2 unless I have a few hours that are open and it's like, I want to sit down, I want to soak.

[Mike]

Sure. Yeah.

[Dan]

I want to, like, get lost in this world. I cannot tell you how many hundreds of times in my life I've just been like, I'm going to load up Mario World and play a level for four minutes and I'm gonna have a great time. You know, it's like, it's just such a polar opposite gaming experience. Like, where do you even be? Like, obviously I'm going Mario World.

[Mary]

But yeah, I feel like playing red Dead Redemption 2, like, that is a gutting space to be in. But I will say, when it, when it hits, I think the highs are higher.

[Mike]

Yeah, I, I, I guess I could say this about many games, not just Super Mario World, but, but like it's, it's fucking awesome when a game just feels incredible to play and it triggers that joyful response and that fun thing and that like, that thing you can go back to, but, like, up there with things like the Last of Us or even Shadow of the Colossus, Red Dead Redemption 2 is up there with like, the range of emotions that game can evoke is fucking vast. Which again, it doesn't really, really help compare it to Super Mario World, but.

[Mary]

Well, one of them has to be Bester.

[Dan]

I mean, you know my vote. It's Mario.

[Mike]

You know my vote.

[Mary]

I, I really, I feel this deeply and it's obvious, like, you're both extremely passionate about each other's games for your own reasons as well. But something has to be the victor here. I just think that there is something untouchable about the mechanisms that Red Dead has put into place that make everything so distinct and the fact that you can play it in so many different ways and how intricate what they made was. I do Think it's a modern marvel. I will agree that Mario is probably the funner one to play. Right? Like, that's the one I grew up playing. But I think we're here to kind of just determine which one we think is, like, in this matchup. I think Red Dead is, like, it's a modern marvel. It's just incredible what they were able to accomplish with it.

[Dan]

Sorry. No, no, I get it. It's like Mario World courses through my veins. It feels like it's part of my DNA. Whereas, like, Red Dead Redemption 2 is something that I had to kind of, like, really sit down and intentionally force myself to appreciate. And I do. And I really do. I, I, I'm not suddenly like, oh, it's my favorite game of all time, but I'm really enjoying playing through it again right now. Again? I was doing it right before this podcast, and it's like, man, this game. Yeah, I. It's an unbelievably impressive game. And so I'm not going to like, again, not a metal gear solid versus the Witcher 3 situation, which is the worst thing that's ever happened.

[Mike]

I really think he's serious when he.

[Mary]

Said the worst thing that's ever happened to me.

[Dan]

There's. I've done so many game of the year arguments and like, that where my babies don't win and stuff like that.

[Mary]

And it's like, I don't lose matter.

[Dan]

I don't get mad about it. I don't really. Nothing matters. And this, like, what? Metal Gear versus the Witcher?

[Mike]

Yeah, it's really nice.

[Dan]

It's all cool.

[Mike]

It's all cool.

[Mary]

It's all melting inside.

[Mike]

Yeah, no, it's fine.

[Mary]

Well, save your energy for this next one. Our next matchup is the Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask versus Elden Ring.

[Dan]

Wow, that's crazy.

[Mike]

Majora's Mask?

[Mary]

Really? Yes. Are you sure?

[Mike]

I'm. That's my favorite game of all time.

[Dan]

Okay. Yeah, there's certain ones here, like Majora's Mask and Red Alert, too, where it's like, you know, there's the, the, like the blue wall they talk about in, like, the election. It's just like, I think there's the Me and Mike.

[Mike]

It's my. And Dan's like, Michigan, but, but, but.

[Dan]

Then Mary and I.

[Mike]

But Mary and I have our Arizonas and whatnot. But. Yeah, but those, those proved shakable. God, these tariffs. What do you guys think?

[Dan]

I hate tariffs.

[Mike]

Yeah, I, I just, I just don't like the tariffs, is my thought.

[Dan]

What about the. The chips? They're going to be expensive or eggs or something. Yeah, I'm worried, guys.

[Mike]

I'm worried about the world stage.

[Mary]

Shut up.

[Mike]

Yeah, let's put Kojima on it. Let's have him figure it out.

[Dan]

President Kojima. Hell yeah. Okay. Majora. Eldon.

[Mike]

I'm just waiting to see whether I need to make an argument. Argument.

[Dan]

That's the thing. I don't know. Like, Mary, are you firmly. Elden Ring?

[Mary]

I think that Elden Ring is the people's choice. Yeah, I think it is.

[Mike]

No, no, you're. You're. What's yours?

[Mary]

I'm the people.

[Mike]

So I think, Dan, you're the tiebreaker.

[Dan]

Wow. Okay. This is the first I've done that.

[Mike]

It is the first you've done that. Mary and I are usually. I feel like I'm usually.

[Mary]

You're usually the one that we're trying to sway.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah. Peacekeeper, usually.

[Mary]

Anyway, go ahead. Dan. Where are you at?

[Dan]

Elden Ring is one of the absolute best games of all time. And it is like, you know when I thought Breath of the Wilds, like I didn't think I could feel like this again with games. As a, you know, 40 year old man, Eldon made me feel it again and it's like, holy shit, we're in a great time for video games. That said that Moon looked really crazy when he looked up. That was real up when he looked up. There's nothing up in Elden Ring.

[Mike]

There's like a giant face.

[Mary]

It's all cute.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's real fucked up. Oh, God, that's tough. Should I look back at my top hundred for reference or is it better if I don't?

[Mary]

No, just like you have to make.

[Mike]

It with your brain, make an argument. Or I could like talk about Majora.

[Mary]

I think ultimately Dan knows all those arguments though.

[Dan]

I know both games.

[Mary]

I think. I think to me it's just like, which one's bester?

[Dan]

I mean, look, I.

[Mary]

This is a Sophie's Choice. Make the call.

[Mike]

Yeah. Drown the kid.

[Mary]

It's actually worse than that. Just so you know.

[Mike]

What happened?

[Mary]

It's a gas chamber situation.

[Mike]

What do you mean? Like you had to choose a kid to not go to the. Jesus Christ. I should stop saying that then.

[Dan]

Well, referencing that comedically, it's kind of.

[Mary]

It's kind of evolved past that as like Sophie's Choice here. But yes, it is.

[Mike]

That's the origin.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Oh my God. We should stop using that collectively, man.

[Dan]

I. Okay, so I was just trying to form an argument in My head about, like, oh, Majora's Mask being so weird and surreal and just the playing with the format of, like, you know, the time and all that. But then I think about, like, Elden Ring. Like, Elden Ring wasn't a game that, like, played it safe. Elden Ring's crazy and surreal and weird.

[Mary]

Psychotic.

[Dan]

Yeah. Like, the shit where it's like the maps that big. Holy shit.

[Mike]

Structurally, I would say Majora's Mask is.

[Dan]

Bolder, but that's the time stuff.

[Mike]

But no, I'll to the scale.

[Dan]

I like the Mask stuff a ton. That's a fun thing. The bomber's notebook should.

[Mary]

What about the ring?

[Mike]

What about the Elden?

[Dan]

I don't even know what the. The Elden Ring is.

[Mike]

The ring that shattered.

[Dan]

Do you think the Elden ring And Elden Ring has a ring.

[Mike]

Ring that shattered and past. And it, like, represented the family and they were trying to. Margit had one of the pieces and, like, they.

[Dan]

I don't know a single character in Elden Ring. I'm gonna say Elden Ring.

[Mike]

I'm fine. If I had to lose, I'm fine. It's okay.

[Dan]

That was tough because, like, I'm such a Zelda Nintendo mark, but, like, yeah, pretty undeniable.

[Mike]

I don't even think Majora Mask is the best Zelda game. It's just my favorite game of all time.

[Dan]

It's just so interesting. And that's why it sucks that it went up against a game that was also incredibly interesting.

[Mary]

And that's where we're at right now, though.

[Dan]

That was like a kryptonite for Majora is like, well, I've got some stuff.

[Mike]

To say about Elden Ring, but I think I'll save it for the next. Whatever the next matchup is, because I don't. I. I agree. I think it's a. I'm fine with that.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Dan]

Yeah. Wow.

[Mary]

I can't believe I just picked up Elden Ring. But yeah, Legend of Zelda. Majora's Mask. Our next matchup. Rocket League versus Team Fortress 2.

[Dan]

That's a weird one. Okay.

[Mary]

It is a weird one. I'm gonna. I'm just gonna say Rocket League. I think it is like, the game I would rather play now.

[Mike]

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

[Dan]

Market.

[Mary]

Okay. Rocket League wins. Next market. The Fellowman Hitman World Assassination vs. Witcher 3 Wild Hunter Hunt.

[Mike]

People are laughing, Dan. Sorry, Mary. Start over. I told a really funny joke.

[Dan]

People are laughing.

[Mike]

I guarantee you there's someone. There's people in their car listening right now.

[Mary]

Let it Die down.

[Mike]

Loved that pun.

[Mary]

Hitman. World of assassination versus Witcher 3. Wild Hunt.

[Mike]

Oh, Hitman.

[Dan]

Hitman. I love the witcher.

[Mike]

The Witcher 3 did its job. It killed Metal Gears job.

[Mary]

It got rid of Metal.

[Mike]

Put that dog out of its misery.

[Dan]

And then Agent 47 came in and shot that dork in the head.

[Mike]

Yeah, I. Oh, God, I love the Witcher 3. I love Hitman.

[Mary]

What would you have picked over? Hitman, World of Assassination, and Metal Gear.

[Dan]

Solid across the whole tournament?

[Mike]

No, of those, two beat Witcher.

[Dan]

Oh, if it was. Oh, oh, you're saying if it was Hitman versus Metal Gear.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Oh, Metal Gear.

[Mary]

Oh, okay.

[Dan]

Not even close.

[Mary]

Yeah, Just never got there. All right, our next matchup is the Legend of Zelda. A link to the past against Half Life 2.

[Mike]

Oh, this is gonna be rough.

[Mary]

One's gonna ruffle some feathers. I'm gonna.

[Dan]

I'll say. Let me start by saying I probably beat Linked in the past.

[Mike]

No one gives a about your personal experience with the game.

[Dan]

That's what we're doing.

[Mike]

No, it doesn't sway us, though, when you just talk about how deep your connection is to a game. Like, why is the game better? I'm telling you this because I want it to win, but HalfLife 2 is really, really good. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to on it. I shouldn't have done that. That was mean. Dan, you beat it 50 times. Continue.

[Dan]

And I've never beat Halflife 2 because near the end, I just kind of got tired of it.

[Mike]

That's why you said that. Apologize for that. That.

[Dan]

To be fair, I didn't play Half Life 2 until the orange box, which was like, what, five, six years?

[Mike]

2007. November 2007.

[Dan]

Three years, three years after. So it was already kind of like yesterday's news.

[Mary]

I couldn't, like, afford to play the best game of its time.

[Dan]

That is also. Yes, because my computer couldn't run it. So that's why Length of the past.

[Mary]

Is better then you shouldn't. That's a bad argument. I mean, I would say Half Life is.

[Dan]

You have a good one too.

[Mary]

One of the. The what? Like the best first person shooter of its time. That, like, gets you to scale an insane way. What you're able to accomplish towards the end of it with the gravity gun. Nuts. I also just want to express when it comes to, like, enemy to friend design, which I had never seen in a game before Half Life, the idea that you would, like, be so afraid of these. I call them sand spiders. Somebody else Might call them something else, but they're like these like scary little guys that like kill you. You. But then you get an item and they become your friends and you can utilize them to your advantage. So sick. Like really satisfying storytelling through game design. And this is important because it might come up later. It's not just about whether or not it tells a good story. It's the fact that it's telling a good story through our medium. Well, it's game design, story mechanics that is so brilliant about Half Life to. It is a stunning achievement for video games. And yeah, it is better than A Link to the Past.

[Dan]

Have you played through Link to the Past?

[Mary]

Yes, I played it on a crt, so I played it in its authentic vibe as well. And it is very good. And I won't be mad about this. Like I, I won't cry about this one because A Link to the past is phenomenal. I just think Half Life is like, it deserves its fucking due. That's what, what I think.

[Mike]

Oh God.

[Dan]

It's tough. Like. Well, no, I, it's not tough for me. I know what mine is. But like, this is like we're at the point where like all the competitions.

[Mary]

These are all good, they're all winners and I, I will not be sad. Link to the Past is phenomenal. I'm. I can't, I can't argue that it's not phenomenal. What I'm saying is, is that Half Life 2 is extraordinary and there's just not too many for like first person shooters that did what this game did also in its time and it has a fucking killer ass story.

[Mike]

I mean, even today there's still shooters that don't understand how, how they, it just misses the mark. They miss the mark when it comes to like how. Oh God. The mission, pacing, the. Every time I think about that game, it's one of those things where I think about a new section or a new mission or I'm like, no, that was the best mission. It's like, okay, well, Ravenholm. Oh no, there's the whole under bridge section. Oh no, there's the whole, there's the whole sequence with the, the caves and the actual like go kart hovercraft.

[Mary]

That fire was so sick. You can break it too.

[Mike]

Like, I think. Am I reading this correctly? It's down to me.

[Mary]

Yeah. Dan will never budge.

[Mike]

Oh God. I want to say one of them.

[Dan]

Is my favorite game ever. The other is, I think, fine, I'm not going to budge.

[Mike]

Two is not fine. Let me say that.

[Dan]

But like, no, it is worth of the greats. It is one of the greats.

[Mike]

It hurts. I do have to go link to the past, though. Link to the past is Link to the Past. This it. Link to the Past is still like a perfect video game.

[Mary]

I'm not mad about it. I think a link to the past is iconic. And I. I absolutely loved playing. I played it through on a Christmas break and God, that was really cool. Playing it on, like, waking up Christmas morning and playing really, really, really fun.

[Mike]

Yeah. That game was that 90?

[Dan]

91.

[Mike]

That was what. What month do you remember?

[Dan]

I don't remember December. Japanese. I got it for Christmas.

[Mike]

I was born in September 91, so I'm as old as that game.

[Dan]

Wow.

[Mary]

All right. Legend of Zelda. Link to the Past wins against Half Life 2. Our next matchup is Divinity Original Sin 2 against Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3.

[Dan]

You.

[Mary]

I mean, come on. Like, the storytelling in Divinity Original Sin is like, it's breathtaking. And like in Tony Hawk, Dan was like, you can like, add another way to add to your combo.

[Mike]

He did say that. That's a quote.

[Dan]

But that's what that game does, and that's why it's so important for what that is.

[Mary]

My combo.

[Dan]

Combos are very important in Tony Hawk.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Oh, man. Why the do I have to keep doing this? Ah.

[Mary]

Do the thing, Mike.

[Dan]

Does it sway you that no one has heard of Divinity?

[Mike]

That's. That's demonstrably false. Just because you said that.

[Dan]

I'm walk around the cul de sac and see how many people have heard.

[Mike]

Okay, I have to go Divinity too. I Dan, I love good CRPGs so much. And that is the second.

[Dan]

I don't know what they are.

[Mike]

You know what?

[Dan]

I'm stupid.

[Mike]

That's the second best one ever made.

[Mary]

Do we just, like, keep placating this guy who cannot read.

[Dan]

Metal Gear? You could read the codex. Took too long. So I hit X through and I read instead of listening.

[Mike]

You're supporting what she just said? Don't do it.

[Dan]

What was Divinity against Tony Hawk 3? Oh, God. Did you.

[Mike]

Did you just realize how little of a fight you put up? Do you want to try to sway me?

[Dan]

No, I already like. But yeah, I think you're more of a divinity guy, so I think it's lost. But that's just a tragedy.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

You got a video game as video game versus a visual novel.

[Mike]

I like video game ass video games every once in a while. But Divinity Divinity Original Sin 2 is a video game as video game. Let's not get that wrong.

[Dan]

You can.

[Mike]

You can. You're.

[Dan]

You're.

[Mike]

If you pick a skeleton for a character. Character. People get. Are afraid of you and won't talk to you unless you put a bucket over your head. And you walk around half the game with a bucket over.

[Mary]

So funny.

[Mike]

And they're like, all right, I guess I'll talk to you.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mike]

It looks so dumb. It's. It's a very. Video game ass. Video game.

[Dan]

That's fun. I like that idea.

[Mike]

Anyway.

[Mary]

Infinity Original sin two wins, knocking out Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3.

[Mike]

Dan's just on a mission to push console games forward every round.

[Mary]

I know he's Antonio.

[Dan]

I just. I'm still bitter about PC games.

[Mike]

Yeah. So the guy with a Bojangles. No, that's an Xbox.

[Dan]

That's my Xbox.

[Mike]

Do you have a fucking Wendy's PC?

[Dan]

I have numerous 4090s in here.

[Mike]

Do you have a Burger King 4090?

[Dan]

I should talk to him.

[Mike]

All right, what's the next matchup?

[Mary]

The last of Us vs Resident Evil remake. Zombies. Old Ver. Old Venus.

[Mike]

I fought hard for the Last of Us, and I love the Last of Us. It's incredible. Yeah, I like Resident Evil Remake more, I think.

[Dan]

Me too.

[Mary]

Resident Evil Remake is just more genius in terms of its, like, design. Okay, cool, Easy. The story, I think, of the Last of Us is very important.

[Dan]

Resident Evil silliness.

[Mike]

Here's why you're in this mansion and survive. Yeah.

[Mary]

Okay. Bloodborne versus Soul Caliber.

[Mike]

Oh, God damn it. This is. I got to go to the bathroom. I'll be. You can keep talking because we got to sway marriage. So, Dan, you could try to start if you want. I'll be right back.

[Dan]

I kind of want fighting games.

[Mary]

I feel like you should be here.

[Mike]

I have been drinking so much water. I can be back in like 30 seconds if you guys can camp. Okay.

[Dan]

We can do it. Yeah. I've been drinking a lot of beer and whiskey.

[Mary]

Do I like fighting games? I like Tekken. Okay.

[Dan]

Okay. That's the Namco. Okay. You know Yoshimitsu?

[Mary]

Yeah. I know.

[Dan]

He isn't in Soul Caliber. You know Heihachi?

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Dan]

It's better than a Soul Calibur. Yeah, about that.

[Mary]

How important is this to you?

[Dan]

Soul Calibur?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Top five game of all time.

[Mary]

Wow. Did you play Bloodborne, though? You liked Bloodborne?

[Dan]

I beat. Yeah. It was the first Fromsoft game I ever beat.

[Mary]

Yeah, you just. Just don't think it's Soul Caliber material.

[Dan]

No. Bloodborne didn't make my top 100. I didn't even consider for my top 100. Soul caliber is like, yeah, like top five probably. Yeah. Soul Caliber, that was the one I was telling him about how it's the most I've ever played a video game.

[Mary]

Yeah, it's surprising too because you just don't talk about fighting games that much generally.

[Dan]

No, but that was. It was unbelievable because like it was. I bought the Dreamcast and it was one of the launch games and I didn't know anything about. There were a couple, you know, before Soul Caliber and I didn't care about it, but it got straight tens in agm and when that happened, I would be like, okay, if I got four tens, I got your solid. So I bought Soul Caliber, fell in love with it. It became a thing. Me and my stepdad played like every day. We were obsessed with it. And then so that was like 99. I went to college in 02. By that point, three years later, I'm still fucking playing it every day. It became a nightly thing in the dorms where it's like. It was our like pre bar ritual. It was our just every night, if we weren't going to the bar bars thing, we're just playing eight on eight. Soul Caliber. We had a Lizard man shots thing where it was eight on eight, random team battle. And if you get Lizard man, for every guy you kill with Lizard man, the guy you beat has to take a shot. So like there were nights we couldn't even go to the bar because we were just like having so much fun playing Soul Caliber. And like, so this is. We're like years and years and years even past Soul Caliber two and three coming out. We just kept going to one. I was arranging tournaments in the dorms and stuff like that. It was just like, like such a incredible important game in my life. Even though, like I'm not a huge fighting game guy. It was so much fun and to this day is so fun that it is on the short, short, short, short list of my absolute favorite games of all time.

[Mary]

Mike, have you played Soul Calibur?

[Mike]

Yeah, I like to the most, I think. Is that heresy to say no?

[Dan]

A lot of people do. And two is very good. I just prefer one.

[Mike]

I like two. I played two on every platform because I liked playing the different characters.

[Dan]

Link and hey Hachi and Spawn. Link.

[Mike]

Hey Hachi and Spawn.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's the one that got me to buy an Xbox just because it was the closest controller to Dreamcast.

[Mary]

I think if I can just say this, I mean, I'm Happy to hear more. But I've heard a lot about Soul Calibur and I've heard a lot about Bloodborne previously, and I think that Soul Caliber has come a long way on this bracket and I think Soul Calibur has done very good for Soul Calibur.

[Dan]

I see where this is going.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

I would argue we do have fromsoft representation of us putting. I know. Doesn't vote. Majora's Mask. One of our absolute favorites. We have no fighting game representation.

[Mary]

I think Soul Caliber, you know, we don't have any final Fantasy representation too. And you laughed about that.

[Mike]

Oh, it's the brackets randomized. The representation doesn't matter when it's randomized. Like we don't have. I think we lost all of our Metroidvanias, didn't we?

[Mary]

I think you should be very proud.

[Dan]

Don't even have Symphony. Yeah.

[Mike]

No. Do you want me to do Bloodborne Mary? Are you voting for Bloodborne?

[Mary]

I'm going to vote for Bloodborne.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Mary]

But I do. I do respect Dan's fondness and appreciation for Soul Caliber and I kind of want to play it.

[Dan]

It's so fun.

[Mary]

Bloodborne wins over Sorrel Caliber. Next matchup, the Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time versus Shadow of the Colossus.

[Dan]

Oh, no. That's a fucked up. I mean, it's Ocarina, but.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's Ocarina, but this sucks.

[Dan]

I don't want to kill Shadow that easily, but it is ocarina.

[Mike]

That's the 17th colossus. Is this argument?

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mary]

Okay. I think I am in agreement with that as well. Okay.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I think we. We did a. We did a good job with Shadow talking about it already.

[Dan]

That's a behemoth. You know, it's a. This situation where just one game of the year. We didn't even have to talk about it. We have not even had to argue for Ocarina yet because it's so good.

[Mary]

Yeah, I know. Okay, next one just to close that out. Ocarina of Time wins against Shadow of the Colossus, knocking it out. Our next one, Portal versus Hades.

[Dan]

That's interesting.

[Mary]

This one's a tough one for me personally, because these are both really beloved and I deeply love both of these games very much for very different reasons. So I'm really curious where you guys land on this one.

[Dan]

This is the first one where I think I'm torn.

[Mary]

I am a little torn, too. I was kind of wondering if someone felt strongly about one over the other.

[Mike]

If you'd asked Me an hour ago, before we talked about Hades more, I think I would have leaned Portal. But now that we've talked about Hades, the more I'm realizing it's like, God, that's so dope. That game's barely not even five years old yet in terms of not counting early access and it's already like one of the few games that was. We could instantly call a classic. It was game of the year that year and we were already using the or no, we didn't talk about it. But then the next year it was like, Hades really is just a marvel.

[Mary]

I'm happy with Hades. I think Hades is a phenomenal game and it's earned its spot. So. Yes.

[Dan]

Yeah. And, and just to say, like, I think Portal, you know, a lot of it is just a fantastic game. Like the moment to moment, like test chambers and stuff are so good and clever and it's a good puzzle game. But I do feel like a lot of the wrappings of it are kind of gimmicky in a way that will feel different. Where it's like, yeah, we've heard the cake is a lie thing a million times and everything.

[Mary]

Yeah, yeah, we've evolved a little bit.

[Dan]

Whereas Hades. I don't think there's any real gimmicky stuff in Hades. I think Hades is one of those Mario World type games that, you know, 20 years from now you could play and I don't think it's going to feel dated. I think that art style is going to be great. I think that gameplay is going to be great. Yeah, I'll go Hades.

[Mary]

Okay, by unanimous decision, hades over Portal. Two more for this round. The next one is GoldenEye versus Super Mario 64. What? Really the bracket hath spoken.

[Mike]

That's the worst one yet. I think the N64 Titans are clashing. I will say my, my, my soul really did lean very slightly toward one of them. But that doesn't mean I'm not.

[Dan]

Okay, let me make my. I think I've got a coherent thing here. I was talking earlier about as much I love Mario. I didn't and you know, just do everything possible to get an N64. When Mario 64 came out, it wasn't until GoldenEye that I determined it was needed. It was. I needed to get it for GoldenEye. So that's in the Golden Eye bucket. But then also I've gone back and I've played both these games a lot. I feel like I've beaten both these games a couple times a year forever. And there are always Those times in Mario 64 where it's like, yeah, you start off, oh, yeah, Bomb Battlefield. This is great. Oh, the penguin race. That's fun. And then you get the Hazy Maze Cave or some of these later levels. I don't want to do this. This. Or it's like, just, like, more obnoxious stars to get. I'm never really annoyed in GoldenEye. I feel like with GoldenEye, I'm always like, fuck, yeah. Like, every part of that campaign on all the different difficulties on multiplayer, goldeneye is, like, only positive. Like, if you're talking impact on the industry and all that stuff. Yes. GoldenEye brought FPS to console and all that in a series way, and. But Mario 64 has the bigger impact from just the 3D stuff.

[Mary]

I'm sorry, who are you voting for? Because you're all over the place.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

But I am leaning Goldeneye. I am leaning Goldeneye. Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. Anytime I think of how good Mario 64 was, it still is good.

[Dan]

Still is.

[Mike]

That's not a. That's not what I'm trying to say. I also think it's like, oh, the first five worlds, I'm like, oh, my God, I missed this. And then I was like, yeah, it's Hazy Maze Cave. It's the. It's the one where you have to. Depending on. Depending on the level. You jump into the frame, it'll raise the water level. That is a cool concept. That quickly is like, what the fuck is this world? It's like. It just looks like a level editor. Like a goldeneye to me is also like. It's also just. It's got the whole package. Multiplayer campaign.

[Dan]

Xenia.

[Mike]

Xenia. Imagine Xenia just strangling Peach with her pervert. I gotta go golden eye, too.

[Mary]

Okay. I won't fight this. I think. I think this is fine.

[Dan]

Okay. Gold kn.

[Mary]

I agree.

[Dan]

Gold.

[Mary]

Goldeneye. Goldeneye wins over Super Mario 64. And the final one for this round. Resident Evil 2 remake versus the Legend of Zelda. Breath of the Wild.

[Mike]

It's gotta be Breath of the Wild.

[Mary]

I think it has to be Resident Evil 2 remake.

[Dan]

We all love RE2.

[Mike]

It's the best remake of. I. I cannot think of a better remake.

[Mary]

Pretty brutal.

[Dan]

And not just as a remake. It's just one of the best games.

[Mike]

It's amazing. It's amazing. I'm just saying, like, of all the.

[Dan]

Good remakes, you're up against the best.

[Mike]

Game of all time.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Mary]

Okay, that's the end of this round. If you want, I might go to the bathroom and take. Yeah, okay.

[Dan]

How many are left?

[Mike]

Sweet 16 now.

[Dan]

16. Yeah, boy. Okay.

[Mike]

Why do I not remember? Wait, what happened to Mario Odyssey? Was that earlier that round?

[Dan]

I think it's still in, right?

[Mary]

Yeah. 10. You know it.

[Mike]

Oh, it be one of Mary's games.

[Mary]

Against Gears of War.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mary]

Thanks for bringing that up.

[Mike]

No, sorry, I just, like.

[Dan]

Come on. Yeah, okay.

[Mike]

All. I'll be back in a few.

[Mary]

I'll remember that.

[Dan]

All right.

[Mike]

And we're back. We are now officially into the sweet 16. If you. Your brackets are intact at this point, I commend you. I think there's been some surprises. I don't, I don't think we have as a group have talked about the Witcher 3 much before, so that might have caught people off guard. What did it be? Oh, Metal Gear Solid. I also Think Divinity Original Sin 2 might have been a little. What's the word? Like, underdog coming up. So kudos to you if your brackets intact. But, Harry, we're onto the Sweet 16.

[Mary]

Our next matchup is Tetris versus is Command and Conquer. Red alert two.

[Dan]

Mike, Mike, can we just do it?

[Mike]

I, I, I truly. I'm not doing this as a bit. I actually, I, I have. My, My heart is made of Command and Conquer. Red alert 2. Tetris. Tetris.

[Mary]

I don't.

[Mike]

I blow it up, Blow up history.

[Dan]

I don't want to be that uncouth.

[Mike]

Tetris.

[Dan]

I love Tetris. Tetris is fantastic, Fantastic. But my heart is also with Red Alert.

[Mike]

Tetris effect is probably the best version of Tetris ever. And I love Tetris effect. It is fucking ethereal and otherworldly and it's affecting, but. Oh, my God. Red Alert 2, one of the best strategy games. It's the best strategy game ever, I think. And. Yep, okay, done.

[Mary]

I think this isn't our best list for, like, historical accuracy. This is our list. So if that's the one that you, you're, you have, you know, the biggest boner for, then that's the one that you get.

[Dan]

It's the biggest.

[Mike]

Oh, my, My dick is so huge for Red Alert, too.

[Mary]

All right, Red Alert two wins against Tetris.

[Mike]

It's really not a bit. It's not a bit. No, it's not a bit. But it is funny to me. Yeah.

[Dan]

Tetris. I'm like, oh, yes. Respect.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, God, I really am kind of hard.

[Dan]

Tetris doesn't have hell merch.

[Mary]

All right, our next one, Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater vs Super Mario Odyssey.

[Dan]

Metal Gear Solid 3 3.

[Mike]

That's my vote.

[Dan]

Odyssey.

[Mary]

Odyssey.

[Dan]

Dude, Odyssey's awesome.

[Mike]

Odyssey is the best Mario game.

[Mary]

I. I agree. It's one of the reasons why I like. Why I was like. Well, I mean, Super Mario Odyssey, like Odyssey is like the pinnacle.

[Mike]

It's best Metal Gear versus best Mario from.

[Dan]

Yeah, when you put it that way, it's. Those are my two favorite series.

[Mike]

I know.

[Dan]

That's why my holy trendy is Metal Gear Mario Zelda. But like Metal gear Mario probably 1 and 2. I think I go Snake Eater.

[Mary]

I'm gonna be Odyssey. Obviously. It's the. It's the best Mario. It's fucking insane.

[Dan]

It is. It's pure joy, beginning to end.

[Mary]

It's pure happiness incarnate.

[Dan]

But can you beat a boss by saving the game and leaving for a week and then he just dies of old age?

[Mike]

Cool.

[Dan]

It's really cool.

[Mike]

It's tough because then you think about Odyssey. It's like my mind's going to like, okay, well maybe there's a higher skill ceiling in one and Odyssey you can chain together all the hat throws and jumps and oh.

[Dan]

If you want to speedrun and stuff. Like, yeah, Odyssey is way more interesting. And I'm. We're getting. I got every single moon in that and did all the super crazy bonus endings and all. It's. It's incredible at the perfect game. But I will remember metal gear solid 3 forever. I mean, same with Odyssey.

[Mike]

But yeah, I. I really, really, really like Super Mario Odyssey. It is my favorite Mario game. But Snake Eater is just has so many colossal moments that are. Are too good to ignore.

[Dan]

Right.

[Mike]

I gotta go Snake Eater.

[Mary]

Okay. I'm blown away.

[Mike]

I'm surprised that was that easy for you, Dan. Not that it was easy, but like I'm shooketh.

[Dan]

I mean, Snake Eater. So fucking cool.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's good. All right. That was easier than I thought it'd be.

[Mary]

Snake Eater bumped out Super Mario Odyssey. I didn't see that coming. I wonder how this one will go. Red Dead Redemption two versus Elden Ring.

[Dan]

Okay. Red Dead had a nice ride. Got further than I would have put it before, but strongly Elden ring here.

[Mary]

Yeah, I. I agree. I mean, I think Elden ring. So the reason that we like fought for Red Dead and it got as far as it did was because it was so intricate and because it was so well designed. Elden Ring is so intricate and so well designed and the scale is incredible.

[Mike]

I'm not.

[Dan]

I'm not Freedom.

[Mike]

I'm not. I'm not going to fight that. Sure. Yes. Elden Ring wins. I. I think. I don't even think Elden Ring's world is on the same. No. Elder Ring's really good. No.

[Dan]

When you get past Stormvale and it's like you're already like 15 hours in, and then you see all that. Yeah.

[Mary]

Is that all? For me?

[Mike]

No. For me.

[Dan]

I have a while to go.

[Mike]

It was. It was the. The subterranean. The fact that that whole thing was under you the whole time, which tears the kingdom also did. But like I would.

[Dan]

It's more interesting in Elden Ring.

[Mike]

Yeah, for sure.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

No, that's fine.

[Mary]

Okay. Rocket League bumps out red dead. Redemption 2. We are moving on.

[Mike]

Wait, no. We didn't talk about Rocket League yet.

[Mary]

Sorry. Elden Ring bumps out. Sorry, I was reading ahead. Elden Ring bumps out Red Dead.

[Mike]

You don't need to do clandestine to get Rocket League 4.

[Mary]

Sorry, guys. Rocket League 1, our best game. Our next matchup is Rocket League versus Hitman. World of Assassination. I do think that this is going to probably. I mean, I. I love both of these games very much.

[Dan]

I do too.

[Mary]

I would be shocked if Rocket League survived this. It just doesn't seem like it will.

[Dan]

I mean, I'll just say I'm firmly Hitman on this one.

[Mike]

You're. Oh, wait, you're on. You're Hitman as well. Mary.

[Mary]

I think I have. I have more fun with Rocket League, but I respect and love Hitman, so I'm. I'm fine with Hitman.

[Mike]

Yeah, same here. I thought that would be.

[Mary]

No, there's no losers in this. But I mean, I personally love Rocket League more.

[Mike]

I thought you were going to go Rocket League and I would have to figure that out because I truly don't know how I would pick. But yeah, Hitman. I would have picked Hitman eventually, let's be honest.

[Mary]

But I think. I think you would have to.

[Mike]

Hitman or Rocket League.

[Mary]

Rocket League is sick.

[Dan]

It's great.

[Mike]

The best feeling.

[Mary]

Crazy.

[Mike]

Rocket League is the best feeling game to ever be made. Yeah.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mary]

Well then Hitman beats Rocket League. Next, Legend of Zelda. A link to the past versus divinity. Original sin 2. I think this is probably where divinity stops. I think that's it for me. A link to the past is, like, really hard to argue against, and that's really good. So, yeah, I'm fine with that.

[Dan]

This is why we're. This is why we're friends.

[Mary]

Yeah. It's all coming back.

[Mike]

I didn't expect that to go, but yeah.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mary]

Okay, okay. Link to the past bumps out divinity. Original Sin 2. 2. Next. Resident Evil remake versus Bloodborne.

[Dan]

God damn interesting one.

[Mike]

I still have to go bloodborne.

[Mary]

I'm gonna go remake.

[Dan]

Oh, no. I'm torn.

[Mike]

No.

[Mary]

Well, now I do. I just think Resident Evil remake is so insane. It's so cool. Like the game, the level design. It's so cool. And like, I know Bloodborne actually also has good level design, but like.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, actually, if. If. Dan, if. Are you swayable? Are you? Are you?

[Dan]

No. I'm not gonna belabor this. Resident Evil.

[Mike]

All right, that's fine.

[Mary]

Yeah, all right, that's fine.

[Dan]

They're both great. But when I think of re remake, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's Hell yeah. And Bloodborne, I'm like, oh, yeah, I should go back to that. But like, re remake.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Mary]

Yeah, it's. It's good. Okay.

[Mike]

I think comparing Resident Evil remakes level design to Bloodbornes is asinine, but that's.

[Dan]

Fine'S about to break in here and kick my ass.

[Mary]

Yeah, yeah, I'll be there.

[Dan]

I'll.

[Mike]

I'll hold him while he kicks you. I don't know how that would work.

[Dan]

But the doomsday.

[Mike]

Do not let him know that. Okay. No, Resident Evil remake is great. It's phenomenal. I love it.

[Mary]

Okay. Resident Evil remake bumps. Bloodborne. I'm amazed with how quick that went.

[Mike]

Yeah, me too, too.

[Mary]

Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time versus Hades.

[Dan]

Oh, you had a good run, Hades.

[Mike]

Yeah. Guys, do you realize what matchup we're. We're hurdling towards? Has anybody else thought this through?

[Mary]

You should notice this.

[Mike]

I think the final four, from what I'm. I'm. Let's not get that. Let's not get that far. I think the final four is going to be two really, really rough matchups. Yeah, it's got to be Ocarina.

[Mary]

Okay, so Ocarina bumps out Hades next. Goldeneye versus Breath of the Wild.

[Dan]

Oh, man. All right. I love goldeneye, but whatever.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Mary]

All right. Sick. That was the 16. So we're really down. No, we're down to.

[Mike]

Was that 16 or 8?

[Mary]

8. Now we have 8.

[Mike]

Now we have 8. Okay.

[Dan]

8.

[Mike]

This is the elite 8.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mary]

Yeah, this is the elite 8. Are you ready?

[Dan]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike]

The one we just created is going to. Okay.

[Mary]

Command and Conquer. Red Alert two versus Metal Gear Solid three. Snake Eater.

[Dan]

Oh.

[Mike]

Is this where we part ways?

[Dan]

It has been fun that we've pushed Red Alert.

[Mary]

So proud of You.

[Dan]

It was a good ride. We made Command and Conquer beat Tetris, which is crazy.

[Mike]

I'm still. I'm still riding Red Alert too, but it was good. While we were there, We. This is your stop. I, I got it.

[Dan]

I gotta get off.

[Mike]

I'm fine with that. I'm not. I'm. I'm gonna get off again with Red Alert, too. I gotta get off. No, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me. Now let me actually, like, think about this for a second. That was just kind of pure Id going, nope, I'm going Red Alert, too.

[Dan]

I respect it. I respect. I got it. Yeah. It's Metal Gear for me.

[Mike]

Have you heard enough about both of these, Mary, or do we need to.

[Mary]

I mean, you guys really farther down. Talked a lot about both of these games. Can you do, like. Because you've talked exhaustively. Can you just give me a nice, like, listen, this is my final pitch, and it should be short.

[Dan]

Metal Gear Solid three is the best story in the Metal Gear Solid series. It is.

[Mike]

No, no, no. I, I, I, I. It's Metal Gear Solid three. I interrupt you. I wanted you to say, save that for potentially next round because the more I think about them, like, what am I doing?

[Dan]

It's like, come on. Yeah, look, we love.

[Mike]

I, it took me. I'm sorry it took me so long, but, yeah, that's okay. Yep. Okay.

[Mary]

All right, next. Oh, and just to clarify, Metal Gear Solid 3 wins against Command and Conquer. Red Alert to our next matchup is Elden Ring versus Hitman. World of Assassination. This one's tough.

[Mike]

I'm, I'm going Hitman.

[Dan]

I'm going Elden.

[Mary]

I think, Oh, I met. They're really good in different ways. They're, like, so important.

[Dan]

I think Hitman's more uneven. I think there are levels that are not great. I think, especially in three, near the end, like the train level and stuff, it started thinking like we cared more about the story and the lore of 47 than we do.

[Mike]

Yeah, that's. That's true. I will say also, I, I don't see many people talking about. I, I think Elden Ring can actually get really boring in the open world sometimes. It's not. I'm not saying it needs to be densely as. I don't. I don't want it to be more Ubisofted, but I still think there are vast stretches of that open world that it can't even. I'm not. I'm already trying to compare it to another open world game that does so many things better. But, like, my point being, I totally agree with you with Hitman three. And, like, I think they went way too story focused with some of the stuff in three, even though that also has some of my favorite maps. Berlin.

[Dan]

Great maps. Yeah. Is unreal.

[Mike]

Mendoza is incredible. But, like, I also do think Elden Ring has some of those throwaway dungeons where it's like, oh, this is just a cut and paste of that mini boss that. That cat one that swipes downward at you.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's all, you know, gray and stepping on switches and. Yeah, definitely that cat boss.

[Mike]

That's. That's. That's all I'm saying is, like, I think. I think Elden Ring can be uneven as well.

[Mary]

But, like, I think I'm leaning towards Elden Ring.

[Mike]

That's fine. Again, that's.

[Mary]

It's just.

[Mike]

I'm totally fine with that.

[Mary]

I mean, what else?

[Mike]

Or Hitman was Elite eight. That. I think it's where it deserves to be.

[Mary]

Okay. Elden Ring beats Hitman Next. Legend of Zelda, Link to the Past against Resident Evil remake. I mean, I don't think too many of us are probably gonna argue with Link to the Past, so. Yep.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Okay.

[Mary]

Okay.

[Mike]

My. My. My trifecta is Zelda, Resident Evil, and I used to say Ratchet and Clank.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

But I think it's probably Halo.

[Dan]

These are all very good series.

[Mike]

Anyway. Yeah, Link to the Past three.

[Mary]

I thought you were gonna say two games and then Zenya on a top.

[Mike]

Yeah, that would have been really. God, I wish I was God, I wish I was as funny as Mary. I would have said that would have been good. My trifectas, Zelda and Resident Evil and Z. Yeah.

[Mary]

Okay, so Link to the Past wins of a Resident Evil. Our last one, Legend of Zelda, Ocarina of Time versus Legend of Zelda, Breath.

[Dan]

Of the Wild, and all right, it's. It's Breath of the Wild. Yeah.

[Mike]

But also, like, that's the best Zelda game versus the second best Zelda game.

[Dan]

Right. Well, I disagree with that. But, like, I do think that Ocarina. Part of what's so magical about that is that it was their first swing at 3D. Same way that Mario 64, where it's like, how the fuck is it that, like, we didn't have 3D games before? And then Nintendo on their first swing, their two biggest franchises, they super knocked it out of the park. And. And not just like, oh, it was good for early 3D. No, Ocarina is still one of the best games of all time. I still play through that and I'm in awe of how good that game is. Is.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

But Breath of the Wild is on a different level. Yeah. And it's. Yeah, it's Breath of the Wild for me. Same.

[Mary]

Okay. The bracket has spoken. We are at top four. You ready?

[Dan]

Oh, boy.

[Mary]

Okay. Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater versus Elden Ring.

[Dan]

I mean, I'm Snake Eater.

[Mary]

Sorry, bud. I'm Elden Ring.

[Mike]

Oh, God.

[Dan]

All right, Mike. This is a big one.

[Mary]

Elden Ring.

[Dan]

Remember the B man that makes a Tommy gun out of bees and then shoots bees.

[Mike]

Shut the up.

[Dan]

Remember the long ladder predator sequence?

[Mike]

There's a tall ladder.

[Dan]

Remember the spirit River.

[Mike]

God.

[Dan]

It's a cool game.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan]

Lightning man.

[Mike]

Let me at least say this Snake Eater is the cooler game. Yeah, but that's.

[Mary]

But is it bester? Like the boss fights? My God.

[Mike]

The character nake has some of the best boss fights or the best boss fight ever.

[Mary]

The character building and Elden Ring is so incredible. Nuts.

[Mike]

Can you put your PS5 on sleep and go away and then you come back and Radon's dead of old age? No. We talk about.

[Dan]

Can you.

[Mary]

You've already.

[Dan]

Can you eat 20 mushrooms and spin around a bunch and puke?

[Mary]

It's not a huge pro.

[Dan]

Can't have sex. You can have sex and Snake Eater on a bear.

[Mike]

You know. You know what's rough? I actually, I, I, I don't. I'm not. It's, it's here. I'm not complaining. All I'm saying is I don't think Elden Ring should be enough in. In a final four. But it is. And it's. I, it's a phenomenal game. I, I think I just. A lot of people like Elden Ring more than I do. But I also know it's, it's like monumental. It's awesome. I love it. Oh, I, I honestly think I have to go Snake Eater. I, I, I love Elden Ring. But like, like cool.

[Dan]

No, it's not cool.

[Mike]

Per minute. Like.

[Dan]

Yeah, that game speaks to us.

[Mike]

Yeah. But also like, I, I, how did we get here?

[Dan]

Here?

[Mike]

Yeah, I stand by that. I, I, I'm. Elden Ring is a great game. I I, I have. I have qualms with it that I think it got farther than it should have. That's fine.

[Mary]

Okay. Somehow lock it in somehow. This Metal Gear Solid three one over Elden Ring. And now we are at Legend of Zelda Link to the past versus Legend of Zelda. Breath of the Wild.

[Dan]

I can't Lose. I just realized I was like, wait, what's still there? Even if all of my favorite games.

[Mike]

Even if Elden Ring had won though. Yeah, not me, but this is three of my favorite games. This is two of Mar's. I think like, yeah, I think we all win, which is good.

[Dan]

Wild.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

That's the hardest decision I could ever make.

[Mary]

I, I think that's very, very, very, very, very, very difficult.

[Mike]

All right.

[Mary]

The Past is like pretty expertly designed.

[Dan]

Oh, it's a, it, it's way more replayable. I have like I said, played that probably 50 times. Breath of the Wild I haven't gone back to since the first time just cuz I feel, feel like you couldn't really. It's the exploration and the discovery that was so huge with Breath of the Wild more than the moment to moment. Like I understand the, the complaints about the breakable weapons and all that stuff and I wonder if that would be worse on subsequent playthroughs. And like Link to the Past kind of has the edge in like more dungeons and traditional dungeons because that was one of the complaints about Breath of the Wild was that like it's got four kind of dungeons. I think the past has a ton. And the light world, dark world stuff. I go back and forth between these two of my favorite game of all time and I still don't know the answer.

[Mike]

Mary, are you leaning anyway, ever so slightly?

[Mary]

I'm suffering.

[Mike]

I, I, I am leaning one way if it makes it easier on you. I can tell you where I'm leaning and I don't think it'd be a surprise rise. I'm, I'm leaning Breath of the Wild.

[Mary]

Breath of the Wild.

[Mike]

Yeah. I think Breath of the Wild is what video games were building towards since they started.

[Mary]

Yeah. The first engineer elements of it are just so wild.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's, it's comparing a, like I'm not enough of an expert to understand whether this is a good metaphor, but it's like comparing Link to the Past is this really interesting, intricate, really well made, ornate watch. Breath of the Wild's the grandfather clock. Like it's, they're so. I, I have never played a game. The sense of discovery is just so potent even after 120 hours in breath of the Wild. And that's, there's absolutely nothing. I, I think if you're, if you're talking about lack of flaw, then Link to the Past wins every single fucking day over any video game ever made. It's, I think it's the perfect, it's the Only game I would call perfect.

[Dan]

It's like that in Mario World for me. Yeah, there.

[Mike]

There are very few. But, like, Breath of the Wild is just. It's weird too, because I also. I also think.

[Dan]

No, I'm. I'm sold. It's Breath of Wild for me.

[Mary]

Breath of the Wild is just so incredible. The way it makes you feel, the. The story where you go. I. Yeah, it's beautiful the way you can have a.

[Mike]

You can. You can jump in for five minutes and have a memorable mini adventure time. You can jump in for an entire Sunday and, like, just see for 12 hours straight that you just. There's. There's stuff in there that no one. People don't talk about because there's so much. But, like, all of a sudden, you're paragliding over this, like, cliff, and all of a sudden, there's this little beach village you had no idea existed.

[Dan]

Shit.

[Mike]

Ton of NPCs. There aren't even that many side quests to pursue from there. It's just this whole community living down there that's like, oh, no, we're fishermen. We just found this little inlet. It's protected from the wind. Like, oh, cool. Good for you. I gotta go fucking build this village.

[Mary]

Yeah. That's so sick.

[Mike]

A bunch of mazes. Yeah.

[Dan]

You can do stupid shit that you're not even ready for, where it's like, oh, I wonder if I can get on the other side of this mountain during a thunderstorm. And even though you don't have nearly enough stamina or anything, you can just kind of like, all right, gonna get my stamina back. All right, now I'm gonna try to crawl and jump over there and like, it. To what end? It's not even for, like, a mission. It's just like you're climbing a mountain to see if you can. And it's rewarding.

[Mike]

It's also. I was very wrong earlier. I said Dishonored 2 is the best immersive sim ever. Maybe Hitman. It's Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom. But Breath of the Wild, especially, like, in the debate between Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom, it's, like, even now. And I, I. I said at the time it came out, it's like, Tears of Kingdom is a better game. Technically, I think I was wrong. Breath of the Wild just. It's hard to say it changed everything because I don't think anybody else can do that again. It's not something people can emulate, so it's not like the closest anybody got Was from software being like, okay, well let's try to do a similar open world that we put our combat in. But even if it was Breath of the wild versus Elden ring, I still 10 times out of 10 would go breath of the Wild.

[Dan]

Me too.

[Mike]

It truly really hit me the first time. I was in a thunderstor storm and all of a sudden you hear lightning in the distance and all of a sudden the sword you're holding starts sparking.

[Mary]

Oh, that's such an awesome moment.

[Mike]

There's those layers. Sorry, I just hit my microphone. There's layers where it's like, oh, there's a storm, weather, weather patterns. It's random. This is awesome. Why is my sword spark barking? You then maybe get hit by lightning. You're like, that was awesome. Even though I have half a heart left. And there's like the low health once you then figure out you can throw the sword at an enemy to get them struck by lightning. That's like the definition of immersive sim.

[Dan]

It's like cause and effects and stuff.

[Mary]

Yeah, yeah. All the different things you can plan.

[Mike]

On their chest and sneak up to their face before they wake up and just steal the weapons off the their neck right.

[Mary]

Without fighting them.

[Mike]

Then all of a sudden you go to the desert and you can wakeboard around on sand seals. You don't have to do that at all.

[Dan]

It's Breath of the Wild.

[Mary]

It's Breath of the Wild.

[Mike]

There's always a shrine in view that you can go do and those are just phenomenal.

[Mary]

And like the shrines are all so good and there's so many of them.

[Mike]

And they become fast travel points which done.

[Dan]

Yep. Smart, elegant game.

[Mary]

Elegant, yeah. That's using the towers for. They were just like really wonderful ways for you to see the progression in your stamina meter over time.

[Dan]

And before that like, you know, stamping maps and stuff was the thing you saw all the time in open world games. Like the fact that you could like you had the five beacons you could put from your binoculars. Like oh, I see a thing over there. But then you can also check the map and be like, oh, here's the thing, I could probably come back once I have this. And yeah. Holy shit.

[Mike]

Like yeah. Also the way they made survival light shit kind of accessible. It's like you go into the cold stuff, you see the thermometer start to drop. You're like well what the fuck am I supposed to do? It's like, well you can't go there yet. Go get some warm clothes you fucking idiot.

[Dan]

And Then eat some peppers.

[Mike]

Yeah. Or get this ability to fucking freeze a block of river so you can jump across. Also, the amount of ways that the. Those. The physics of those seemingly simple four abilities can. I won't put them on the same level as the Zonai abilities, Tears of the Kingdom, but I do think they were. They're less like Tears of the Kingdom. Those. The Zonai abilities were kind of like super power ass, which is great kind of mess. And they're messy. Yeah.

[Dan]

There. There's more you could do. But it. It did require a little more kind of like, fiddling and stuff like that. Whereas, like, Breath of Wild. Yeah. I don't like the powers as much as Tears of the Kingdom, but I like the fact that I'm not constantly trying, like, okay, let me rotate this the right way and stick it over here.

[Mike]

And you know, also, oh, my God, the. The There. That's like my favorite game to watch. Like, GDC talks about where they're like, oh, here's how we set up. No matter where you are in the world, there's always going to be the triangle rule, which is, we want something in the foreground to show you the scale. We want something in the back to show you what you can climb. Climb over, around, go around this for. But also, keep in mind, you can climb basically anything in this game. So we also want you to consider whether it's worth going over something. But then it might rain, and then you're slipping, and then there's always those, like, hair, like, skin of your teeth. Get over the edge.

[Dan]

Like, just keep pressing the analog stick forward. Just.

[Mike]

Or do I. Do I do that last jump with the B button? That will then send me to my death if I fuck up. Grab the edge or just the little flutters of a flute, the music in that game, the way it plays in organically into, like, when a breeze hits the trees. Oh, my God.

[Dan]

Yeah. It's Breath of Water.

[Mike]

Yeah. We could talk forever about it. I just wanted to at least be.

[Mary]

Like, well, you have to keep talking about it because if Breath of the Wild is winning over Link to the Past, then our final matchup is Metal Solid 3 Snake Eater vs Legend of Zelda. Breath of the Wild.

[Mike]

I thought we were done realizing something. Yeah, sorry. I thought we were. That was.

[Mary]

That was the top four Link to.

[Dan]

The Past in Breath of the Wild.

[Mary]

Yeah. So now it's two, and I'm fully.

[Dan]

I think Breath of the Wild.

[Mike]

Yeah. Sorry. I thought we were done with the episode. I was like, let's Just.

[Dan]

We're down to the finals now.

[Mike]

It's. It's Breath of the Wild versus Snake Eater.

[Mary]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Which is a cool matchup. That's a really good matchup, but also, like, love it.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mary]

It's Breath of the Wild.

[Dan]

It's Breath of the Wild.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yep.

[Dan]

Yeah. Yep.

[Mike]

Tarrytown. You're building up the village and, like, each person brings their instrument, which is a very good ode to the series past, where the central conceit of every game was an instrument he was playing to manipulate shit.

[Dan]

There's just a million.

[Mary]

Dude. The moment you see the giant maze in the distance, and you're like, I wonder if I can.

[Mike]

Several blocks. There's like, four, right?

[Dan]

Yeah. And the loss. It Lost wood stuff.

[Mike]

Even tied events.

[Mary]

Psycho dad.

[Dan]

So all the times you just a random Bokoblin camp and you're just about, I wonder if I can roll this bomb down here. And then like, oh, man.

[Mary]

Yes, you can.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mary]

What a game.

[Mike]

I like Ascend in Tears the Kingdom. I like Ultra Hand. I like. What is the. I know there's Fuse. Fuse. The 1. Fuse is the one. I went back to Breath of the Wild. Not being able to combine all those items into weapons is the one I do miss when I come back from Tears of the Kingdom. What's the fourth zone ability I'm missing? Oh, Reverse time. Which actually becomes, like, the really overpowered one if you know how to use it.

[Dan]

But, yeah, sure.

[Mike]

Yeah. Breath of the Wild is just.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I still. I think I've still seen only, like, 35% of that game. That's probably underselling it. 55% of that game. There's a lot in that game.

[Dan]

Yeah. I'll never forget I was with Bianca, and I was. I got the switch and Breath of Wild a few weeks before it came out. And I was playing, and it's one of those things where I'm losing my mind playing it, and I'm wondering, like, I need to talk to someone who's been playing this. And, you know, I messaged friends and stuff. Is this. Wait, this is like, one of the best games of all time, right? You see this? Did you see this? Holy shit. Even tied island, all that stuff. And bonk. And I went out, like, while I was halfway through the game to some Greek place, and we were just in the middle of eating, and she was like, oh, yeah. So how Zelda. And I found myself just ranting and raving about, like, how fucking incredible this was. And I found myself tearing up and thinking, like, I did not know, video games could still make me feel this magic. I mean, I still love video video games, but like, that level of magic of, like, how open this world is and the possibilities and exploration and rewarding you for trying things. And I just couldn't stop talking about. I felt myself getting emotional. It's like, holy. I've been talking about video games my entire life, and I can't tell you as an adult that I've ever felt that emotional. Just being like, this is magic.

[Mike]

I think there's an assumption, like every. I think there's an assumption at any age, but especially like, when you've seen. Played as many video games as all three of us have, individually and collectively, you've played the best game you're ever going to play. But for that, you'll never have that childhood feeling again for that to come along in 2017. Kind of know it 50 hours in. Honestly, like, the farther I get from that game, the more I'm like, yeah, those feelings were all correct. It's. It's. That's crazy. And also, speaking of the Witcher 3 doing things that, like, a lot of games have been trying, Breath of the Wild makes the Witcher 3 look like fucking intro course.

[Dan]

Like, thank you.

[Mike]

So many games had been trying, Open worlds had been trying, immersive sim elements had been trying. It just like, I don't. I truly don't know how it was done.

[Mary]

It doesn't change that it beat Metal Gear Solid in the first round of our game deliberation.

[Mike]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan]

But hey, everything worked out in the end, didn't it?

[Mary]

It did work out in the end. So Fire Escape's best game of all time is Legend of Zelda. Breath of the Wild. Yeah, almost everybody.

[Mike]

Almost. In, like a month, it'll be eight years old, right? March 25, 2017. Yeah, I think it was March. Yeah.

[Dan]

Because it was March 2017.

[Mike]

Because Horizon was February. No, Horizon was like two weeks before the first zero. Dawn was two weeks before it was Forbidden West. That was like a month before Tears of the Kingdom. Oh, I might be budgeting.

[Dan]

Right for Elden Ring. It was right for Elden Ring.

[Mike]

Correct. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Dan]

Another Wild's really something special.

[Mike]

Yep. And on a. Even at. In 2017, a pretty underpowered console, no less. Like when you go into the Lost.

[Dan]

Woods, it was a launch game and it was underpowered.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Yeah. Man.

[Mike]

God, imagine the team.

[Dan]

What a game.

[Mary]

What a game game.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Mary]

Well, Wonderful to have 100 episodes with you guys. Congratulations. For 100 episodes.

[Dan]

Yeah. Four years going on now, April 2021.

[Mike]

Coming up on four years, you will.

[Dan]

Always be like, oh, we're going to start a podcast. They do three or four episodes in, then they stop. Not us.

[Mike]

I said that to Amanda tonight. We were making dinner. We're recording this on a. Like a Sunday night. And I was like. I was like, as much as, like, when I first met her, she's, you know, there's. There's a joke that's like, oh, every. Every guy has a podcast. And I was like, I. I held off for like six dates telling her it wasn't six. She discovered it before that. But I was like, I'm not gonna tell her on an early date that I have a podcast, because every guide does. And it's probably not just guys, but, like, I think I know that's like the meme kind of thing. And then tonight, especially at that time.

[Dan]

It was like pandemic times. And like, everyone's like, oh, turn. A podcast.

[Mary]

That's the only way you could talk to people regularly too. And I think actually it is how we talk to each other and, like, still communicate and spend time together. So it does do those things.

[Mike]

Well. Tonight at dinner, I was like, I. I was like. To be. To be completely honest, I was like, oh, okay, it's something. I was like, got some other things I got to worry about tomorrow. I was like, ah, we got to do this best game of all time recording tonight. And then, like, as I started thinking about it more, I was like, Jesus Christ, 100 episodes. Like, yeah, I could. I commit to stuff pretty easily in my life, but like, this four years is like, it has flown, like, and I.

[Dan]

It. Yeah.

[Mike]

I don't know. I never once doubted that we would get far into it, but it's like, it hit me today how much of, like, a commitment it has been because, like, there's been times we were all really busy. I guess we will record this before I fly across the world in like.

[Dan]

Eight hours, but travels and surgeries and yeah, all sorts of just like, yeah.

[Mary]

Go was a race to the finish last year, like finding with all of our busy schedules, so. But we make it work and I'm like, so grateful that we have it. Yeah.

[Dan]

Yes. Maybe occasionally have to get a substitute or something, but, like, no, we're not going to episode.

[Mike]

No, it's been wonderful. Love you too. Love all our listeners for being with us for a hundred episodes. We'll be back to our normal as scheduled programming next episode 101. We're into the triple digits now.

[Dan]

Officially based on politics now.

[Mike]

Yeah, it's all politics. So we'll talk about the tariffs. We'll talk about. We'll talk about potential for partnerships with various countries and what kind of theory craft different trade agreements in the coming trade world. Be great.

[Dan]

Greenland. We've got a lot of thoughts on Greenland. I'm getting my notes together.

[Mike]

We're pretty sure if Xi Jinping just plays Breath of the Wild, then he might come around on a bunch of American ideas. We'll see. Even though it's not an American game, we'll just tell him we made it. Yeah. We'll be back in two weeks and we'll be talking about some modern new games. I'm sure a lot of. Actually, a ton of games we could be talking about next episode. So that'll be fun. Oh, yeah. All right. Well, thank you as always, everybody. Thank you, Mary. Thank you, Dan. We'll be back in episode 101.

[Mary]

Thanks for listening, guys.

[Dan]

Thanks, everyone.

[Mike]

Sa.