Tom O'Neill - Episode 1094

Summary

Fitzdog Radio – Episode 1094: Tom O'Neill

Host: Greg Fitzsimmons
Guest: Tom O'Neill
Release Date: April 23, 2025

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1. Introduction

In Episode 1094 of Fitzdog Radio, host Greg Fitzsimmons welcomes his longtime friend and esteemed author Tom O'Neill. Their enduring friendship spans over two decades, originating from their days as neighbors in Little Italy, New York, before both relocating to Los Angeles. Greg sets the stage by highlighting Tom's significant achievement: his book "Chaos," which has remained on the New York Times bestseller list for an impressive 33 weeks.

Notable Quote:
Greg Fitzsimmons ([02:11]): "My guest today is one of my dearest friends for the last 25 years, maybe more, maybe 30 years."

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2. The Genesis of "Chaos"

Tom O'Neill delves into the comprehensive research and dedication that culminated in his groundbreaking book, "Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties." The book challenges established narratives surrounding the JFK assassination and Charles Manson, positing that covert CIA operations played a pivotal role in these historical events.

Notable Quote:
Tom O'Neill ([24:11]): "Tom is the author of Chaos. What is it? His book took him 20 years to write."

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3. Unveiling the Deep State and CIA Involvement

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the intricate ties between the CIA and notorious historical events. Tom contends that the CIA, originating from the OSS after World War II, maintained clandestine operations that extended into the Cold War era. He asserts that these operations were instrumental in shaping pivotal moments, including the JFK assassination.

Notable Quote:
Tom O'Neill ([25:15]): "He [Bugliosi] ended up as much of a boogeyman in my book as Manson."

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4. Personal Risks and Retaliation

Tom candidly shares the personal risks he faced during his investigative journey. From threats by prosecutor Bugliosi to violent confrontations with individuals like Vince Slater, Tom recounts instances where his pursuit of truth put him in genuine danger. These experiences underscore the lengths to which certain figures went to suppress alternative narratives.

Notable Quote:
Tom O'Neill ([26:28]): "The moments I was most afraid of retaliation were from Bugliosi and the direct threats he made against me."

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5. Challenges in Adapting "Chaos" to Film

The conversation shifts to the arduous process of adapting "Chaos" into a visual medium. Initial attempts to create a feature film proved unsuccessful due to the book's depth and complexity. Tom emphasizes that the material is better suited for a documentary series that can adequately explore the multifaceted stories within.

Notable Quote:
Tom O'Neill ([64:57]): "The poor guy who was hired to adapt the book for a script... 'I have to do it. But I don't know how to make it a feature film.'"

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6. Success and Recognition

Despite the hurdles, "Chaos" achieved remarkable success, particularly after being featured on high-profile platforms like Joe Rogan's podcast. This exposure significantly boosted book sales and expanded Tom's reach, though challenges like the COVID-19 pandemic affected distribution.

Notable Quote:
Tom O'Neill ([50:45]): "The right wing has embraced it... It's been really kind of elevating it and, and telling everybody to read it."

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7. Personal Anecdotes and Friendship

Greg and Tom reminisce about their shared history, recounting stories from their days in New York and Los Angeles. They discuss mutual friends, memorable parties, and personal milestones, providing a heartfelt glimpse into their enduring friendship.

Notable Quote:
Tom O'Neill ([73:09]): "Now you can move back to Venice."
Greg Fitzsimmons ([73:16]): "You got this. You got. You finally got big checks rolling in from the book."

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8. Fastballs Segment

The episode concludes with the "Fastballs with Fitz" segment, where Tom engages in a rapid-fire Q&A. Questions range from personal relationships to hypothetical scenarios, showcasing Tom's wit and candid nature.

Sample Exchanges:

• Best Female Friendship:
  Tom O'Neill: "I have a few great stories, but I'm not gonna get all my women friends to hate me for talking about them publicly."

• Eulogy Selection:
  Tom O'Neill: "Patti Smith. I wanted to do a southern cross for them, bringing the casket in and dedicate an elegy when I'm coming out."

• Recent Apology:
  Tom O'Neill: "I was going to say I don't think I apologize to people. I would apologize if it were necessary."

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9. Conclusion and Future Endeavors

Before wrapping up, Tom discusses upcoming projects, including potential sequels to "Chaos" and collaborations with notable figures like Errol Morris and Rick Rubin. He underscores his commitment to thorough and uncompromised storytelling, ensuring that future works maintain the integrity and depth of his initial research.

Notable Quote:
Tom O'Neill ([75:35]): "The second one is in progress, but I haven't committed to it yet because I said, unlike the first one, I'm not releasing a book that doesn't have all the loose ends at the end."

Greg affirms the significance of Tom's work, encouraging listeners to engage with both the book and its documentary adaptations, while also promoting Tom's social platforms for further updates.

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Closing Remarks

Episode 1094 of Fitzdog Radio offers an in-depth exploration of Tom O'Neill's investigative journey, personal experiences, and the profound impact of his work on historical narratives. Through candid conversations and shared anecdotes, Greg Fitzsimmons and Tom O'Neill provide listeners with a compelling understanding of "Chaos" and its broader implications.

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Final Notable Quote:
Tom O'Neill ([88:54]): "Get the book."
Greg Fitzsimmons ([88:55]): "Alright. Thanks, Tom."

Transcript

[Greg Fitzsimmons]

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[Tom O'Neill]

Welcome to Fitz Dog Radio. Amazing guest today. My Dear friend Tom O'Neill will be here. I talked to him. I think it's a couple weeks ago actually, so I don't know if. I never know if something's gonna feel dated. But so excited. I had a great week. Went to see AC DC this weekend. Holy shit, there's a Bucket List concert. I mean, that's one of those ones you go later, like, why didn't I see AC dc? And you go, well, cuz they're fucking old. And the joke I kept making after the show when we were all leaving was they kind of mailed it in and everybody laughed because they were fucking killing it. Hundred percent. Like, it's just, you know, you just can't describe the spirit behind a band like the Rolling Stones or the who or acdc. Like it doesn't matter how old they are, they still got the balls. And Angus was running up and down a Runway into the crowd, fucking doing the duck step. Is that what they call it, the goose step? No, that's, that's the Nazis. The. What do you call it when you're, when you're running on one leg and kicking your other foot forward? The duck walk. I think it's the duck walk. He was duck walking, he's 70 years old and he. It was a 2 hour and 30, 15 minute concert where they were destroying. And I was shocked how many of the songs I knew there was only like two songs I'd never heard before. Hell's Bells came on. And not gonna lie to you. Little tear, little tear Ran down my, you know. Rolling thunder, fire and rain. I'm coming on like a hurricane. White light flashes through the sky. You're only young but you're gonna die. I mean, are you fucking kidding me? And then they just. And then the best part is my buddy Chris Chaney plays bass for them now. He's a guy that I've played golf with for about 10 years on every Friday. And he used to play with Jane's Addiction for a lot of years. And he had, he recorded Alanis Morissette, Jagged Little Pill. Toured with her for years. Everybody. Taylor Swift, he's like a huge, hugely respected bass player. Does a lot of session work for other bands and anyway, so he started touring with AC DC last year on their European tour. And you know, he would tell me stories about flying first class, staying in four seasons. They do one concert, then they take two nights off afterwards so they can all rest where you're just getting like room service and first class. And he's hanging out with Angus like, you know, they're going to the store together and shopping and so it's been a dream for him and he just killed it. I mean, I guess you don't really focus on a bass player that much until you're watching the bass player you see what he's doing is very intense. And he was, he was amazing. And then afterwards we all went. It was Fitzsimmons, Fitzgibbons, Gibbons and Gubbins and then Dickie and Adrian and a couple other people. So we got. Get backstage passes after the show. So we're in the fucking green room with Slash and Axl Rose and all these, all these famous old rockers are hanging out and they're all dressed the same. Everybody's got black jeans, black sneakers, concert T shirt, leather jacket. Hair still there? They still got the hair. It's amazing. And a lot of them are buff. They, they like, they're taking care of themselves. Some of these guys, you know, like Axl look kind of ripped and so crazy. It's so funny when I think about, like, well, just to change topics, just the idea that some people get, they bulk. You take like skinny little bald guys and they get hair transplants and they take, you know, testosterone and fucking whatever those bodybuilding pills are, and then they lift weights like crazy and they completely change their look. And, and these are always the same guys that, that, that just reject trans people as saying, well, that's not who they are. They change the way they look. Well, so did you. Anyway, quick observation. Also went out. Jesus Christ. I went to the Bernie Sanders. I love Bernie Sanders. What can I say? I think he's a guy that consistently has said what he believes for 50 years. I think he walks the walk, you know, it's so funny that there's all this spin. Well, he owns three houses. Yeah. One's a fucking shack next to a duck pond in Vermont. Like, whatever. Has he not earned enough as one of the biggest politicians in the country for 50 years? Anyway, so we went to see his rally and I of course, posted a clip of it and got annihilated by people from the right, which I don't even know who my listeners are. I don't talk politics much. I'm not a political person that much. But it is amazing when I put something as innocuous as a 10 second clip from a Bernie rally, how upset people get. But I have to say, we're fucked. As a Democrat, I saw those people at the rally and I realized I could beat the shit out of 99 out of a hundred of them and I'm fucking 58 years old. We would get. They are just the softest, you know, NPR tote bag wearing, you know, Birkenstock I like. And then I picture the typical Trump dudes rolling up four guys in A pickup truck with mullets packing muscle heads. We. If. If it comes down to fists in the street, we're done. We're done. Here's a joke. I was talking to my daughter and her friend, and she was talking about how she's dating this guy, but she found out that he does magic. And I was like. And she goes, it's a deal breaker. She says, it's over. I didn't know. And she goes, I can't date him anymore. And I said, what if he was a mime? And she goes, no, a mime I would love. Because then he would just be quiet and you could put him in his box. How fucking great is that? This is just a chick my daughter hangs out with. And so I may. I said, can I use that in my act? I think I might expand on that. Here's the other thing I know. These are quick little things that I'm noticing. Went to Home Depot a lot this weekend. I built two sheds on the side of the house, and we got some flowers and plants for the backyard. Anyway, here's what I realized. If you go to Home Depot alone, as a man, you feel very masculine. But if you go with your wife, you feel like a fucking. There's something about her saying yes and no to things that you're putting in the cart, and you end up walking three or four steps behind her. So I just say to her, I'll go. You give me a list. I'll go, here's my other notice. She likes to point out continuity problems in movies. We're watching a movie, and she goes. She goes, his shirt was untucked, and then they cut to her and they cut back and his shirt was tucked in like that. And I go, oh, oh, I forgot to tell you. It's not real. It's all pretend. That murderer, he's just the guy who lives in a condo in Studio City. He's even a nice guy. He's never killed, never even hurt anybody. I know, but now he's a killer. Yeah. And that living room, it's four pieces of plywood with wallpaper on it. Yup. It's not real. Isn't that crazy? Went down to Laguna beach also this week. My sister flew. Well, my brother was here all week. We had a blast. We had a really good. I don't know if I talked about on the podcast. I. Sometimes I feel like maybe I'm repeating things on the podcast. If I am, just enjoy it. I mean, does anybody go, hey, we want to play freebird? No, we've already heard Freebird. Well, that, that last joke was a Freebird joke. You should have your lighters out calling out, do the Home Depot bit. What joke is it? You wanna hear Home Depot? So I went down to Laguna with my sister, my son and daughter. No, my daughter didn't come. She fucking bailed. My wife and son came down to stay with my sister and niece and her friend and we got this really cool house in Laguna. Laguna beach is a fresh, fun town. They got good food, like restaurants with decks right on the sand on the ocean and cool little coffee shops and record shops and used. I'm not into used clothing, by the way. We walked into a used clothing shop and I was like, yeah, it's someone else's shit. It stinks like mothballs and the leather is hard. I'm not into it. But we went down and we went to this restaurant and they pre games. My niece and her friend are big drinkers and Owen was trying to keep up and he got sloshed. He had a few stiff drinks at the house and then he had a few drinks at the restaurant and so. But he got so drunk he was kind of saying dumb shit at the table. And then afterwards he was like telling me how much he loves me, which was very nice. He just, he was, he's like, you're the best dad. You did this for me, you did that. You know, I, I look up to you. Is a really nice. And I really was almost like, I don't know, truth serum. I hope it was true serum or. Either that or he was drunk and telling me shit. But it was nice. I gotta get, I gotta get people in my life around me drunk more. Say, tell me how much they love me. That's all I need. I don't need to act better. I don't need to give them more gifts. I just need to get them drunk. All right. Speaking of getting drunk, I'm coming to some comedy clubs in your neck of the woods. Huntington beach at the Mamba on May 4th. Escondido at the Grand Comedy Club May 9th and 10th. Cincinnati, the Commonwealth something on May 16th and 17th. It's actually in Dayton, Kentucky, Tampa Bay side splitters June 5th through the 7th and then a one nighter in Naples, Florida at off the hook June 8th. Also coming to Torrance in June, Austin, Texas, 4th of July weekend at the mothership. Point Pleasant, New Jersey, La Jolla, Vegas, Chicago, New Orleans. Go to fitzdog.com, pick up some tickets, come see live comedy. Give me a hug. Bring me some fucking Honey nut cashews from Trader Joe's. A lot of people do that because they know I love them. Also, don't forget there's new merch for Sunday papers. Hats, T shirts, mugs for the fifth anniversary. Go to fitzdog.com for the merch as well. Wear it proud. All right. Spooking a proud. My guest today is one of my dearest friends for the last 25 years, maybe more, maybe 30 years. We were next door neighbors in Little Italy in New York for years, and then moved out to LA around the same time. Lived three doors away from each other in Venice beach for about fucking, I don't know, 10 years. And he's very close to the family. My kids consider him an uncle. And he's just. He's got a circle of friends that I love. He loves my friends from other places, like college. And then he's got a cast of characters as friends. And we all spend a lot of time together. And it's nice. I could tell you stories all day about us, but I'll just get to the interview. Cause I think we get into some good stories in the interview. His book Chaos has been on the bestseller list, the New York Times bestseller list for 33 weeks straight. And it's huge. You probably heard him on Joe Rogan talking about it. You heard him once before on this show talking about it, and we had a great conversation. I think we're gonna have to have another one. There's a lot to get to. So here he is, my buddy, Tom O'Neill. Foreign. This is a very big show today. Here, move that mic right next to your face there.

[Unknown]

Like this.

[Tom O'Neill]

No, pull the whole thing towards you. There you go.

[Unknown]

Am I looking at a camera?

[Tom O'Neill]

No, you look at me.

[Unknown]

Okay, so why are we facing that way?

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, because the cameras are there. It's called cheating to the camera.

[Unknown]

I'm used to doing this like in. In your den or something.

[Tom O'Neill]

I know.

[Unknown]

I did your first show ever. Very first show.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, right.

[Unknown]

Karen Kilgariff.

[Tom O'Neill]

That's right.

[Unknown]

It wasn't the very first one, but it was the first season.

[Tom O'Neill]

It was one of the first shows. And I remember, didn't she, you thought you were gonna be the solo guest and then she showed up.

[Unknown]

No, you had a cancellation. And you asked me, I lived two doors away, if I could show up at like four, whatever time on a couple hours and do it. And I said, talk about what? And you said, my book. And I said, my book is not done or published. I can't. Anything interesting? I can't say. And you just said I had a cancellation. We'll talk about. We'll figure out a way to talk about it without getting you in trouble.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So when I got walked over to your house, a town car pulls up and this woman gets out. It's before Uber, and she's kind of lost. And she said, are you from this neighborhood? I go, yeah. And she goes, do you know where whatever your address is? I go, greg Fitzsimmons. She goes, yeah, yeah, I'm late. I go, right there. I'm going in there, too. And we both kind of looked at each other and I thought, oh, maybe she's going to see Erin. You double booked. Cause you assumed that one of us wasn't gonna make it.

[Tom O'Neill]

That's right.

[Unknown]

So you didn't tell her I was coming?

[Tom O'Neill]

I assumed you weren't gonna make it.

[Unknown]

I lived two doors away. So then we sit, and luckily. Had she just been fired from Ellen?

[Tom O'Neill]

Yes.

[Unknown]

So you just shat on Ellen for 45 minutes. And I just sat there like a dummy, nodding my head and laughing.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then finally you turned to me to talk. Talk about the book. And I said, there's not a whole lot I can say. And I think that was it. That was my first ever podcast and my last one for a long time.

[Tom O'Neill]

No, you've done it. When the book came out, we did a big, long one.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, yeah. This was the first one, though. That was probably five or 10 years later. When did you start this podcast series?

[Tom O'Neill]

14 years ago.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that was the first year.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then the book came out in 2019. Right. I did do it. I forgot.

[Tom O'Neill]

So just so people have some background on us, we were neighbors on Mulberry street in Little Italy back in. I would say 95.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Maybe 93 or 4.

[Tom O'Neill]

No, no, 90. No, 93.

[Unknown]

That was the year your dad died. What year?

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah. 93. Yeah. So for 93. And Tom put a roof over my head. He found me an apartment, the first.

[Unknown]

Of a couple roofs.

[Tom O'Neill]

What are you talking about?

[Unknown]

Two apartments in that building.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, right.

[Unknown]

And then a couple in Venice.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, really?

[Unknown]

Yeah. I tipped you off. I spoke to landlords. Definitely two of New York.

[Tom O'Neill]

Tom likes to keep score with his friends and hold things over your head.

[Unknown]

I'm Italian and Irish.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah. And so we ended up living three doors away from each other in Venice after having lived one door away from each other on Mulberry Street. My kids grew up with you. They call you Uncle Other things. Yeah, My. My old tenant used to call you something. Else, I can't remember.

[Unknown]

Stop it.

[Tom O'Neill]

But. So we have a long history. But more importantly, you're here today to talk about. There's new news, there's a breaking story. Then you say you're going to come. You can only come late in the day because there was news on the John F. Kennedy files.

[Unknown]

No, no, you don't pay attention. That was yesterday. Oh, and I said I needed to watch the hearings because two of the researchers I've worked with were testifying. I had no idea what they were going to say.

[Tom O'Neill]

What hearings?

[Unknown]

They had congressional hearings yesterday. Representative Luna, the one who's in charge of making sure that the archive that Trump has promised was going to be released gets released. And she's actually using it as a pedestal now. So she had public hearings, which are unnecessary, but I wanted to see how these guys handled it and what they said. And it was kind of a freak show because it was Congress, not Senate, and those people are much more showboaty than senators are. So they were all making it about Trump and politics. Like they wanted the witnesses who are Kennedy assassination experts, including Oliver Stone, he testified, to talk about, you know, to be. Are you going to thank President Trump? And isn't it great? Trump is releasing this?

[Tom O'Neill]

Really?

[Unknown]

Yeah. And one of them, Jefferson Morley, who's the most knowledgeable person on this entire subject, said, you know, I'm not here for partisan politics. Like, one of them started saying, why didn't Joe Biden release these? I thought. And then he said, I'm here to talk about such substance. What. What's been released so far? What we were promised that we still haven't been released. Because a lot of stuff is still withheld.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And a lot of stuff that's been released has been redacted.

[Tom O'Neill]

Heavily redacted.

[Unknown]

Both things Trump promised wouldn't happen.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Everything's late, Everything's a shit show. They've released files with Social Security numbers of living people in them.

[Tom O'Neill]

No way.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So they haven't redacted the only thing that they really should be allowed to react. Redact the personal information. And then they have large redactions of some of the most important CIA documents, which defeats the purpose. So, luckily, the good thing about these hearings was they called them out on that and they challenged Trump to stop doing that and to release more. But it's so partisan, it was just dumb.

[Tom O'Neill]

So what was the. There was one author's name, James Douglas, jfk and the Unspeakable.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, he was.

[Tom O'Neill]

Will he speak?

[Unknown]

No, no, no. But he and I have become friends. He's too old to travel. He's like 90.

[Tom O'Neill]

All right, but I want to talk about that because I listened to that book on tape because you told me to. And I mean, it lays out such a clear case of. It's mostly focused on the motivation of the CIA to take Kennedy out. And it talks about how he was starting a communication with Khrushchev in Russia, he was starting to open up talks with Castro and he. And these are all. He was ending the Cold War. And the CIA was an, an institution built on the Cold War.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So it came out of the OSS, which was the predecessor to the CIA, which was our foreign spying during World War II.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So when World War II ended, the OSS. OSS was still overseas, still doing, you know, spying work as everybody was partitioning. And then they're like, all right, it's time to go home. But they wanted their, this internal operation that was great at spying to continue in the U.S. so that's when they named it the CIA.

[Tom O'Neill]

And no invoices, it's no, there's just bags of money being handed overseas.

[Unknown]

So I can tell you something about him. Douglas is. He reached out to me about a year and a half ago and he's doing a follow up book.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, he is?

[Unknown]

Yeah. And he's. I've shared a lot of my Jack Ruby stuff with. He's really nice and you know, he's. His book is considered probably the definitive and the best on the Kennedy assassination. And there's lots, I mean, there's hundreds. And his is really the most sober and substantiated and well investigated. Now I can't remember how old he is. I think he's at least 90. And he lives down south, like in Mississippi, next to a train track. So he'll call me and you literally hear the train whistle going by.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And he's very sweet, very soft spoken and very religious.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I think it's Catholicism, but he invokes God and Jesus a lot. And, and he's been. He said, I'm attributing all this stuff to you in my book. He said your Ruby stuff? My research. Yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, just so people know, if you didn't read, Tom is the author of Chaos. What's this?

[Unknown]

What's the Chaos? Charles Manson, the CIA and the Secret History of the sixties.

[Tom O'Neill]

Okay. So he wrote this book, people. You've been on the show before, but just if you haven't. It took him 20 years to write it. It came out, it blew the roof off The Bugliosi case. Or if you listen to the audiobook, the Bugliosi Case.

[Unknown]

Bugliosi is the prosecutor who put them in prison, who the Manson murders, who made a whole career off of the trial. And then the book Helter Skelter, which is the best selling true crime book of all time still today about his prosec. And he ends up. He's kind of the hero. When I began this, he was a hero who I thought I was going to elevate. And you know, and I found out that he was actually. He cheated at the trial and lied and hid evidence and misrepresented a lot of stuff and committed crime. So he ends up becoming as much of a boogeyman in my book as Manson.

[Tom O'Neill]

And this was at the behest of the CIA that wanted a certain narrative.

[Unknown]

About Charles Manson federal government. Because I've never been able to prove who but the federal government was interfering and enabling Manson. And then I present theories in the book about which agencies it probably was with the CIA being the leading candidate.

[Tom O'Neill]

Why do we say it wrong? COINTELPRO.

[Unknown]

COINTELPRO is the FBI's operation. COINTELPRO. And then the CIA had chaos. Operation Chaos and MK Ultra and Manson, in my view and in my reporting again, I always preface this by saying it's not proven. It's just circumstantial that Manson was enabled and possibly created by these groups who were intersecting with him from the time he was released from prison in 67 until the murders and after the murders and his capture in October 69.

[Tom O'Neill]

And what's the. What's the most scared you? Because you're talking about, you know, the most evil, dangerous organization in America, the CIA. And you're putting a light on them. What's this? What's the moment you were most afraid of retaliation from them.

[Unknown]

You're not bringing up that Jojo story.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, you might want to tell that.

[Unknown]

I mean, Bugliosi was the only person that really ever frightened me, the prosecutor, once he realized what I was doing and he tried to stop it and the threats that were coming from him were amazing. And I had.

[Tom O'Neill]

And you knew at this point that he'd abused his wife, he'd threatened a guy who.

[Unknown]

He'd committed crimes involving other people. He beat up a mistress, caused her to miscarry. She reported it to the police. He went to her apartment with his secretary and a typewriter and held her captive until she agreed to write, to sign. He had to have a cover story for why. What happened was this was his mistress. She got Pregnant, didn't want to have an abortion. He said she had to. He gave her $200 for the abortion, set her up with a doctor, and she lied to him and said she'd had the abortion. And he called the doctor, and of course, the doctor violated his confidentiality with his patient and said she never came in for the abortion. He went to her apartment and beat the hell out of her. And she miscarried. She went to the Santa Monica police after he left the house. And I have all the photographs, you know, the bruising and all. He just kicked the hell out of her. And then the next day, it was in the newspapers. This is about five years after he became famous for Tate La Bianca. So he immediately went back to her apartment, this time with the secretary and a typewriter. And it took, I think, about three hours for them to persuade her to go back to the police and say she lied, that the only reason that she had gone and said he beat her up was because he was trying to get her to pay him an outstanding bill for legal services. That her. It was true her ex husband wasn't paying child support. But he said, the story is, you've never met me face to face. I gave you phone legal advice, and you owed me the money, and you were just trying to shame. I mean, it was such a ridiculous story. And then they typed up a bill, and she signed it. And the secretary was an accomplice to this. It was his longtime secretary, Barbara Silver, in Nevada.

[Tom O'Neill]

Still alive.

[Unknown]

Actually, she just died about a year ago.

[Tom O'Neill]

Okay. We can still besmirch her.

[Unknown]

I reached out to her kids, finally. Anyway, that's a whole other story. So she. And I have the tape recording of her telling when she filed a civil suit against Vince Slater, of her telling this whole story. I have it on my social media portion of it. And she basically said when he came back with the secretary, he. He never hit me that day she was there. But he threatened me, he cried, he begged me, and I finally just did it to get them out of the house. So she called the Santa Monica Police Department with them there, and she said she wanted to come in and withdraw her charge, that it was a false charge. And they immediately sensed something was wrong. And they said, all right, we'll send a car to get you. And she said, and Vince is there. She's telling the story later for her civil suit. And he's going, no, no, no, no, no, no, they can't come here. And she goes, no, no, no, don't come here. I'm A few blocks away. I'll just walk over now. And they said, okay. And they sent a car, and the car got there with the two patrolmen, and Vince wouldn't let them in the house.

[Tom O'Neill]

Wouldn't let the cops in.

[Unknown]

Wouldn't let the cops in. Eventually, Vince called his own attorney, Robert Steinberg, who came and neg. So Vince went into the police station, called up the DA Of Santa Monica. I didn't even know there was a district attorney of Santa Monica, but there is. That guy said, we're gonna take care of this. We're gonna let her news story that she was gonna tell Stan. So Vince ended up with his complicity, telling the police and then telling the media that it was a false case, that he'd never met her face to face. I. I interviewed the cops that showed up at the house when he was there. So the police and the DA Were complicit. The two patrol cops were like, we couldn't do anything about it. We would have lost our jobs. So he ended up saying that she had lied about being beaten up. He'd never met her. He wasn't at the house. That never came out until my book that he was at the house when they came. And there's a pattern of this behavior. There's other cases I found where he did the same thing.

[Tom O'Neill]

He thought, all right, so this is all leading up to how you're scared of him. So at what point did you think, he's coming? Moment for me.

[Unknown]

Oh, gosh, I. It wasn't. I wasn't really scared of the CIA or anyone else except for him.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But at one point, I got nervous because, you know, I'd leave my house for a few weeks at a time, and my house was kind of vulnerable. You know, it was an old bungalow. Not good locks, Ground level. I don't live there anymore, so don't come and try to get my stuff. But I think the story Fis likes to tell is he went back east for Christmas before I did with your young family, and asked me to water plants or something, which I did for. You know, I went a week later. And then you came back earlier. And I guess your kid Jojo was like a little girl, maybe three or four or five, and she asked what all these boxes were in her closet. And I had forgotten to tell Fitz that I didn't feel safe leaving all of my sensitive files in my bunk.

[Tom O'Neill]

So, basically, my daughter's room was housing documents that would have gotten you killed.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but they weren't going to hurt her. You know, Maybe they'd hold her in exchange for the. I don't know.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, just bring a typewriter and a secretary and hold her.

[Unknown]

Yeah. That was more. I was worried that people were going to break in the house and steal the stuff.

[Tom O'Neill]

So you were never worried for your life?

[Unknown]

I was worried from Vince. I mean, Vince was violent.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. But I wasn't. And. And crazy, but I wasn't really. I don't know, some of the drug deal. In the beginning of my reporting, I was looking into the possibility, which I'm still not sure doesn't have something to do with it, that there was a drug deal that went wrong at the Tate house.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And there were three, no, five guys who were narcotics, international narcotics travelers who the police believed had committed the murders in the first week or two. And I found three of them, and I was interviewing them, and one of them was in Canada, and he was pretty crazy. And the reason they became more important was I also found out that they were working for military intelligence, so they fit into the CIA thing. And the one guy, Billy Doyle, would tell me that he could easily hire a Mexican and pay him a hundred dollars to shoot me with a rifle. From the corner of Oakwood and Venice. He found out my address and he was in Canada. And I probably never told you that.

[Tom O'Neill]

No.

[Unknown]

Yeah. It's in the book, though. Yeah. So that was a little scary. And his partner, Charles Taco, also threatened me. But Taco, who was 6 4, ex Marine, he was then about 75. And I would go to his nursing home and he'd start cursing and yelling at me from his hospital, but there wasn't a whole lot he could do. And then he really loved Coco's, which was a restaurant chain. I don't even know if it still exists. Yeah, I think the one and only time I went there, I took him there for lunch. So an attendant from the nursing home wheels him out in a wheelchair, and then he lifts them and puts them into the front seat of my car and then folds up the chair, puts it in the back, and I'm like, oh, fuck. So we get to Coco's and I have to. It's an intimate thing to lift a man and put him in a wheelchair. We had the lunch. It got pretty intense. He was starting to threaten me. And then when I was lifting him back into the car, he's saying, I could kill you, O'Neill. I was like, charlie, I can just drop you here and drive away. That's. There's so much absurd stuff, but there.

[Tom O'Neill]

Was a Lot of interviews that you did. You were driving into the desert. You were driving in Northern California, and you were tracking down these guys that were on their deathbeds that were finally willing to talk about stuff. Deathbed confessions. And there was one, I think, that was. You got to a little too late. Didn't somebody die, like.

[Unknown]

Oh, they always. It was weird. Some people, I would. I call up and someone in their family would say, they just died yesterday.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I wonder which one you're talking about.

[Tom O'Neill]

I think it was a California investigator. California state cop investigator or something.

[Unknown]

Huh.

[Tom O'Neill]

But we would get bits and pieces over the 20 years that Tom wrote this book.

[Unknown]

You don't have to keep saying 20 years, but it was. Yeah, it was a long time.

[Tom O'Neill]

We would have. We would have dinner parties, and afterwards, Tom would be over. Served sometimes with wine.

[Unknown]

Not after. During. From the beginning.

[Tom O'Neill]

During. Well, you'd show up with a paper cup with a straw and it filled with wine. And then you'd bring a bottle of wine with you, as if you bring it to the party. But then you would drink the whole bottle and then take another one with you on the way out the door.

[Unknown]

Well, you aren't exactly the biggest drinkers. I mean, we couldn't.

[Tom O'Neill]

We had no drink. We had no wine left in the house.

[Unknown]

Somebody had to drink it.

[Tom O'Neill]

And so you would let slip things after a few glasses. And so we basically got the book in bits and pieces. And every time you'd tell us, you'd say, like, you'd look both ways and go, all right, I shouldn't be talking. I shouldn't be talking about this.

[Unknown]

No, it was more like.

[Tom O'Neill]

And we called you Radio Tom.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I didn't want to talk about it because. Not because I was scared so much, but more because you can't just talk about it for a minute or two. You have to give context.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Because it sounds so crazy if you try to do sound bites. And I would think, oh, my God, these people are gonna so regret asking me, you know, what, did you find out this week or this month or something? It's too hard to explain. But you guys all get bored with each. I'm not talking about you and your wife, but you and your friends get bored with each other. So I'm like the performing monkey at the table.

[Tom O'Neill]

No, but you're so good. You're very generous when you meet somebody new. Like, I remember one night you came with me to a club to watch me do stand up, and then we went out with my friend to dinner afterwards. Kira Sultanovich I didn't know that.

[Unknown]

Is that a man or a woman?

[Tom O'Neill]

A woman should. Dark hair.

[Unknown]

Oh, that was a couple years. Like a year ago.

[Tom O'Neill]

About a year ago, yeah.

[Unknown]

She was great.

[Tom O'Neill]

But I'm just saying, like, in situations like that, you're very generous in, like, setting up the whole thing for them. You tell your whole story. You don't seem bored by it.

[Unknown]

Crazy. If I don't do that, I'm gonna. She's gonna.

[Tom O'Neill]

I know, but a lot of people just go, I don't want to talk about it. But do you. Do you get ever get tired of talking about it?

[Unknown]

I only did, like, a podcast an hour ago.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, did you finish the Rick Rubin one?

[Unknown]

No, no, that's not announced. I don't care. No, no, I did one today and I told you, I said, it's supposed to only be an hour and it's a zoom thing. Yeah, but they're paying me.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And so I, you know, I said, it'll be done at 4 and I live without traffic 10 to 15 minutes from this beautiful studio. And you said, all right, 4:30. But, you know, the guys went way over. It was like 4:15. And I finally had to say. I didn't say, I'm going to another podcast. I said, I have a doctor's appointment. And I said, I feel awful. Not because you guys paid me that much money, but because I'm leaving. And I said, I really thought it was only an hour. And they said, but we just want to extend. And I said, all right, look, after the doctor's appointment, if you want, I'll come back and you can ask me.

[Tom O'Neill]

More questions for more money.

[Unknown]

No, no, no. I felt bad. You know, they were young.

[Tom O'Neill]

You're the only person I know that insists on being paid for podcasts. And you get it. Like podcasts I've been on for free. You get on them and you get paid money.

[Unknown]

Well, not like the big guys, like. Well, you. I didn't ask for money. Really.

[Tom O'Neill]

No, that's what I'm saying. I'm the only one. Yeah, but then you say to me, I go, can we do it on Tuesday at 1:00? No, no, I got a paid one then. So I'm behind everybody else. Because God forbid you come on and talk to me for free after taking dozens of bottles of wine from my house over the years.

[Unknown]

No. And you also have been promoting my. I mean, you wouldn't have my book broke through because he got me on Rogan. I've never failed to thank you for that. But you did say you were gonna have a drink or something here for me.

[Tom O'Neill]

I do feel bad about that.

[Unknown]

That's all right. That's where I got my water.

[Tom O'Neill]

You got your water. But no, it's. I want to talk about your brother a little bit. Who is in the news this week. He's in.

[Unknown]

You saw that?

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah. I was very, very. I'm always very impressed by your brother.

[Unknown]

But I know people can't believe we're some from the same parents.

[Tom O'Neill]

What are you talking about? You're very intellectual, too.

[Unknown]

I know, but he's so much more valiant than I am, than anybody is, truly. He's the envoy to Haiti for the UN right now. He's always been a human rights lawyer, working for small, like, indie firms, just protecting people who don't have, you know, who need protection. Haiti's been a specialty for like 30 or 40 years. So he was over there. He goes over. They won't let him go half the time. He has to fight to go. And he says, I can't do my work unless you're going to let me go to Port au Prince. And that's where, you know, he's interviewing and trying to fix its anarchy. It's horrible. And the UN says, we can't afford to protect you. You know, we need tanks and shit. He can't leave the hotel without armed guards because he's a kidnapping target. But he still wants to take that chance. So he had just come back and address the UN or something, and.

[Tom O'Neill]

But the conditions, I mean, I see video of. Of Haiti right now. I mean, it's. It's like. It's like Gaza. I mean, stuff is just level. There's intermittent electricity. There's no running water. There's. The gangs have taken over the government.

[Unknown]

Gangs run the country. And the country's never recovered from the earthquake. You know, the waters are poisoned, the foods, and there's just like hell.

[Tom O'Neill]

And the earthquake was followed pretty soon after by a horrible hurricane.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah. And they have hurricanes all the time. Yeah, yeah. It's awful. I mean, I was actually. This is how long he's been doing it during the Clinton administration. I was going over there because he was living there. You know, he was stationed there for like two years. And he said, if you really. It wasn't that dangerous then. It was when Aristide was president. And so Clinton was What, the early 90s or 96, something like that? When I still lived in New York. Yeah. So he said, you can come over, and I just can't go out at Night. But you can go out in the daytime. It's fine. And you can stay in our hotel. You know, they had a hotel with a whole wing for the relief workers and lawyers. So I bought my ticket.

[Tom O'Neill]

People gotta lay there a lot.

[Unknown]

I wouldn't have to pay board then. Wow. That sounded. Can I backtrack on that one? Jesus. He sets these traps. Anyway, he's supposed to be a friend. Yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

And not paying you.

[Unknown]

I'm not paying me. Not even giving me a drink. But anyway, literally, the day before I go, Clinton, they had to order. There was a coup and they had. Clinton ordered all Americans out of the country. And they were on a ship.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And my brother's like, you can't come. You can't get into the country. We're not there. We're on a ship. And we're trying to figure out if they're going to let us back in or we're going. Being flown back. And I said, I paid for my ticket, Billy. You know, it was like $400 round trip from New York. He goes, you're going to have to eat it. And I said, but I can't. I was so, you know, thrifty and broke. Then I said, I'll find a way. And he's, no, you will be killed, and they won't let you. When you land, you won't get off. The planes have stopped, I think I said, can I go on the boat? At least with the Navy guys can't come on the boat. So I never got there. That's how long he's been doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

And what is it about Haiti, do you think has captured his attention all these years?

[Unknown]

He's always been. So he and I moved to New York together. I transferred to NYU Film School in 1978 from McAllister, this little college in the Twin Cities. And he started law school at nyu and we got an apartment together and Park Slope. Before anybody wanted to live in Park Slope. 78. And we couldn't be more different. He's eight years older than me, and he just does. I mean, he's never done Dr. U. G. S before, I don't think. I think he smoked pot in college. I've never seen him have a fight with anyone. He's the nicest person in the world, you know. Went to high school, Jesuit high school, scholar athlete, All American basketball.

[Tom O'Neill]

Cindy. Have a master's and a doctorate.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah. He's got everything. Yeah. And. Wait, what did you say? What was the question? What is.

[Tom O'Neill]

Why is he so attracted to Working with.

[Unknown]

So when he finished law school, he got married. So I ended up. I couldn't live there with he and the wife. But when he finished law school, he got a job at a Park Avenue firm and, you know, finance law or whatever, and it was miserable. And, you know, I go there to maybe borrow money sometimes, and, you know, you'd have to go past 10 different secretaries, and he'd come out with a tie, and he just seemed miserable. And I think.

[Tom O'Neill]

But he was making tons of money.

[Unknown]

He was only there, like, a year or two, and he was making a fortune. And then all of a sudden, he said, I can't do it anymore. And he started working for, I think it was called the New York, the Lawyers for Human Rights. So I go to borrow money from him at that place in Chelsea.

[Tom O'Neill]

Not as many secretaries.

[Unknown]

And it was like. No, I mean, like, the women were bare feet, and he'd be in blue jeans and a T shirt. And he was never happy or he was making nothing. And he's never done anything since. He's just done human rights law. Haiti became especially. He got something called a Watson Traveling Fellowship, where he studied in college. I think after his first year of college, or no, when he graduated, he was a finalist for the Rhodes. Didn't get it. The Rhodes Scholarship, which Clinton got and a lot of other prominent people got. He was told by one of the guys on the jury, he said, we literally had to flip a coin because we couldn't. We wanted both. Yeah. So. But he got the Watson Traveling Fellow, and he went to Africa and he studied French colonization in Africa. So he became really interested in African countries that had been colonized by the French and Haiti was, too. And he spoke French. And so he ended up starting to do a lot of pro bono human rights work for Haitians in the United States, and then going over when the whole country imploded. And he speaks Creole, which is the native language, and just never stopped caring about Haiti when nobody cares anymore.

[Tom O'Neill]

So how much of the time has he been gone over the years?

[Unknown]

Well, the last.

[Tom O'Neill]

He's based out of D.C. now.

[Unknown]

No, no, no. He's in New York.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, he is.

[Unknown]

Because the UN's in New York.

[Tom O'Neill]

Okay.

[Unknown]

So he just became. I mean, before, he's always with different human rights groups or just alone doing. And he represents other. Like, ever since Trump was. When he won the election in November, my brother started doing tons of prep work for the immigrants who had to be protected from ice. So when I saw him at Christmas, I'm like, what are you doing? And he said, well, we've been operating out of a church, and they come to us. I go from what countries? He goes, every country, you know, Sierra Leone, Haiti, all immigrants who don't have all their papers or maybe they're completely illegal. And they advise them how, you know, what rights they have and how not to get what's happening now, you know, picked up and, you know, since El Salvador.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah. And the Latin. And he said, but this was a Christmas. He said, they can't come to the church anymore because we're being surveilled. You know, even before Trump was inaugurated, what, like January 20th or something, this was Christmas. He said, so now we're meeting them clandestine. We're going to other churches and other places because they know where we've been counseling them. So he's always cared about people more than. I mean, he and his wife don't have kids, so they can, you know, afford to be a little less.

[Tom O'Neill]

What does she do?

[Unknown]

Oh, she's a. She teaches at Columbia. She's got the best job in the world. Her specialty is healthcare and insurance. So about 15 years ago, she got a contract with New York City. She teaches brand new cops and brand new firemen how to navigate their health insurance.

[Tom O'Neill]

Is it that complicated?

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, it's hard.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

So she teaches them and they love her, and, like, they'll do these cruises where it's like all the firemen, when they finish the class with her.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

They'll take her. And she's the only woman on the cruise.

[Tom O'Neill]

And it's like it goes around New York City.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And there's like 200 firemen, 200 cops, somebody, can I come? And then she mostly teaches up at Columbia about health care and shit like that. She went to Harvard.

[Tom O'Neill]

Wow. And now did you feel, because you wrote this book for 20 years, did you feel. I know. You did feel at certain times, like the black sheep of the family.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I was a black sheep before the book.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Because I was a third kid, so I was a mid. So I had two older brothers. And then I was the last kid until my sister came four years later. But, you know, when you and my two older brothers were model, you know, students and athletes, they did nothing wrong, so somebody had to misbehave.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then when my sister came, you know, my mom finally got the little girl, so then I was really neglected, so I was the only kid in the family to get in trouble. And I got trouble all the time.

[Tom O'Neill]

But is it Vindicating. It's not vindicating because I know you didn't begrudge anybody anything, but was it sort of like validating? Validating to finally become on. You've been on the New York Times bestseller list for how many weeks?

[Unknown]

32.

[Tom O'Neill]

32.

[Unknown]

My agent wrote an email and he said, you know, that's eight months. It's almost a year.

[Tom O'Neill]

And this is five years into the book being released.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it just started last summer. So it's been eight months off and on. And we went off today of the paperback. We were nine last week on the top ten paperback nonfiction. We went off today, and I knew we were going off because I follow the sales and I can guess it.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I got an email from my agents today. They get the New York Times list on Wednesday. It's published at 4:00 our time. So I usually, I check, but I don't have to because they always let me know. So the email said, fell off the paperback list today, but we're on the audiobook. And that's not just. So I'm not competing against hardcover. I mean, in paperback, you're just competing against paperback, not hard or audio. But for audio, you're competing against hard and soft.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, I see.

[Unknown]

And I know we're gonna be back on next week because the sales have been really, really great the last week because someone's talking about it on their podcast.

[Tom O'Neill]

You're not gonna mention who.

[Unknown]

Not because that person's competition to you, but because that person does have a larger platform than just about anybody except for Rogan. And she's embraced it.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I am not going to say anything bad about her at the moment, but she's been talking about it for three straight days for some reason, and the book just went way, way, way up. And so. So we'll be back on next week again.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, let's just talk about. Without naming names, let's just talk about the fact that this book is. It feeds into deep state theories.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So the right wing is.

[Tom O'Neill]

The right wing has embraced it.

[Unknown]

And, you know, when it was coming out in 2019, our Trump was our president. I don't have my politics. I'm an old lefty, you know, Democrat through and through, and came out in 2019. He'd been in office maybe a year or so. And my other brother Timmy, who's not the human rights lawyer, he's just a real estate lawyer, he said to me, you know, when this comes out, Trump the MAGA crowd is just gonna embrace it. I'm like, why? And he goes, because you're exposing the deep state.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I said, but I'm talking about. Everything I'm talking about ended in 75. He goes, that will not matter to them. And I said, it's not going to happen. And, you know, it came out and it didn't really happen. I mean, and we only did okay for the first six months. And I really thought, oh, shit, it's going off. You know, it's not going to be selling anymore. And I got to get another job or do the follow up. And then he saved me and got Rogue, got me on Rogan, which changed everything in, I think, the spring of 2020. It really wasn't until Trump announced that he was running, running again. And the MAGA world had become so much more kind of, I don't want to say hysterical, I don't want to judge, but more paranoid, especially with the two attempted assassinations that they just now they all. Tucker Carlson, this guy Ian Carroll, who was on Rogan a week or two ago, who talked about. Two of them, talked about the book for like 20 minutes.

[Tom O'Neill]

Really.

[Unknown]

All these people in that world are really kind of elevating it and, and telling everybody to read it. And I'm just glad people are reading it. I mean, I just.

[Tom O'Neill]

Can we talk about where we went to the holiday party? Who's. Who's behind it from.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

Peter Thiel.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

So Peter thiel, who created PayPal and is basically got J.D. vance elected and is a, you know.

[Unknown]

Get me in trouble. Go ahead.

[Tom O'Neill]

So he give the history of, like, how you got in touch, how he got in touch with you and what your relationship has been.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So I can't remember if it was after Rogue, after Rogan, I started getting a lot of people reaching out to me because he's got such a massive audience. I think it must have been after. So Teal's guy, his inside guy that arranges stuff for him, reached out and said, peter Thiel would love to have you up to his house for a dinner. I'm like, what does that entail? And he said, well, he has a dinner party, he tries to do it once a week, and he has a different guest every week. And we just kind of wine and dine you and hope that you'll talk to us and tell us about what you do. And like I said, politically, I'm the opposite of him. And this was in 2020. So actually Trump was still president and Thiel famously was the first openly gay man to speak at the Republican convention when he endorsed him and Trump wanted him, wanted to put him in the cabinet in some kind of national security adviser or something. And I don't think it's a secret. Thiel told me this in confidence, but.

[Tom O'Neill]

I'm sure he radio Tom.

[Unknown]

He just said he was gonna do it until he read the disclosure forms and all the stuff he had to disclose about his life. And he said, I wasn't willing to share that with the federal government. So I turned him down and I said, I'll informally advise you. I actually like him. He's a nice guy. And so I went to the dinner and it was about a dozen people. One of them was an old friend of yours, the guy that profiled you for the New York Times.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, sure, yeah.

[Unknown]

Neil Strauss.

[Tom O'Neill]

Neil Strauss.

[Unknown]

He was great. I liked him. And then they invited me back the next week. And ever since then I get invited to Christmas parties and events and I got invited to a movie this past weekend that he screened and I, I think Fitz came to at least one.

[Tom O'Neill]

Greetings.

[Unknown]

Oh. So, yeah, they had me speak to his company a couple years ago and that was at the top of a tower on Sunset Boulevard. It was nice.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, they had food, but the Christmas party was like. I mean I've been to mansions in LA before, but this is like three of the biggest mansions I've ever seen pushed together. And you walk in and there's flamethrowers and there's a dj, aerialists, people up.

[Unknown]

In the sky doing like acrobats.

[Tom O'Neill]

There's a sushi bar that's got a dozen sushi chefs all make it. It's. It's a circle, an island and they're inside of it making stuff. There's, there were like 20 food stations, like that Korean barbecue. Yeah. And then they had a wine cellar. We could go down and have like, you know, thousand dollar bottles of wine.

[Unknown]

They had Gibbs, Mike Gibbons was there and he was going absolutely crazy because I guess he knows fine wine. Fine whiskey.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, they had a whiskey bar.

[Unknown]

They're serving such and such scotch. I'm like, I don't know Scotch. He's like, it's like a two thousand dollar bottle of scotch.

[Tom O'Neill]

Let's go.

[Unknown]

And we go down and just start, you know.

[Tom O'Neill]

Plus we walked in and there was a mushroom bar. And so we're all tripping on mushrooms as we're watching people juggle fire and contortionists.

[Unknown]

And they had those, those samurai bands, like these guys with like little, just bikinis on. They look like samurai. No, no, they're sumo wrestling, but they weren't. And they're playing these drums. And didn't they have a stage and a performance or something?

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, it was. Well, it was a dance floor.

[Unknown]

Yeah. No, no, but they had an indoor. They had a theater where they had like, they were doing like Foley. The French show, the Showgirls. It was. Yeah, it was insane.

[Tom O'Neill]

And then there was this poor stand up comic went up. And then you guys all fucking ditched me. We're hanging out. You're like, we're gonna go see the stand up comedian.

[Unknown]

I'm like, you wouldn't come in.

[Tom O'Neill]

Exactly. I'm like, I'm on mushrooms. I gotta go watch a comedian who's probably gonna recognize me. And he's in the middle of, like, performing at some billionaire's party bombing. And he's gonna look at me and go like, what are you doing here? So I didn't go in the room.

[Unknown]

The guy was pretty good. Do you remember his name?

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, I really like that guy. It's.

[Unknown]

He has crazy hair. He's friends with Zoe. Your friend Zoe?

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah. Is it Saul Trujillo?

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think. And he had the funny. Gibbs can do this. I can't retell a joke, but he's looking at the audience and he had a couple moments where he was just bombing and he started saying, hey, look, I didn't know I was gonna be playing to people who arrived here on their helicopters, who have never been to Ralph's. He goes, I just was told to do a gig and I can't. You guys can't relate to my humor. And they couldn't. It wasn't as fun.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, the whole audience was like. It was like guys that were obviously geeks, their whole lives, techies. And now they've got on like Italian blazers and those like tight pants that go to your ankles and all these bored looking Asian women.

[Unknown]

But you and Gibbs were miserable because you said there were not beautiful women.

[Tom O'Neill]

There were no beautiful women.

[Unknown]

A lot of beautiful women.

[Tom O'Neill]

According to who?

[Unknown]

Me.

[Tom O'Neill]

And you're an expert on beautiful women.

[Unknown]

I don't have to be a heterosexual to appreciate women, man. I met that neuroscientist who looked like a Calvin, like a Vogue model or something. And then you guys said, she's the only attractive one here.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I said, even if she were the only one, she's also a neuroscientist. So that makes up for it. She counts as like a hundred beautiful women. She was great. But I still think you guys are just looking to Be all pissed off because you wanted to have a reason not to be happy. He didn't. Fitz didn't come this year because you were traveling, I think.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So Gibbs came, and he brought our friend Nicky or Dickie Egan. And I got way overserved and introduced to all kinds of hallucinogenics I had never done before. So they lost me when they wanted to leave, and then when we left. They give you. You can take. They have gifts.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But I had, like, three shopping bags full of just crap stuff.

[Tom O'Neill]

They weren't. They weren't even giving away.

[Unknown]

I know. Yeah. I took these ornaments. I mean, these decorations for the party, and it was great. This year.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, the guy I met. The guy. You and I always compete when we go out in public together. Well, you brought me to the Oscars one year, and I brought you to the Emmys. No, no party. No, no. The Grammys party.

[Unknown]

All right. Last year.

[Tom O'Neill]

And we always have a competition of who's going to get recognized more, and I pretty consistently beat you.

[Unknown]

Well, the Oscars, I didn't get any points at all.

[Tom O'Neill]

No.

[Unknown]

And, you know, you're a public performer. I was an entertainment reporter who did a little bit of TV stuff. But I made the bet with Fitz, which was stupid, and you would think that he would forgive it because I brought him to the Oscars. He still collected. But the bet was, I think if somebody recognized you or me, you got, like, one point if they waved from across the room. Two points if they walked up and said hello. Three points if they hugged you. I think five if they picture. I don't think we even had the camera. This is, like 1999 or something. I think five points if they talked to you for more than a minute or two. So I don't even remember who you saw, but you saw.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, I thought I saw red skeleton. Remember, I ran up to see.

[Unknown]

No, you saw red buttons.

[Tom O'Neill]

Red button. I thought I saw red buttons. And so I ran up and I told him I was a big fan, and he looked at me like I was crazy because he was really, like, somebody's plus one.

[Unknown]

And you wanted the points. You thought he was going to recognize you. Yeah, but you. You. You ran into three or four people, and. And I didn't run into any now and then. The. The Grammys party was a stupid bet for me to make because there were, like, 20 comic books there.

[Tom O'Neill]

Nikki Glaser, Jeff Ross, all those.

[Unknown]

All your crew. That guy that produces Howard Stern. Baba Bowie.

[Tom O'Neill]

Baba Bowie was there. And. And then how about that woman we sat with she was the black woman still talking about. Oh, my God, she was amazing. Anyway, so let's get back to. Before we wrap up, because I don't want to pay you more than a thousand dollars.

[Unknown]

You're not paying me nothing. Didn't even get the drink I was promised, but all right.

[Tom O'Neill]

Do you know the book sales you're gonna make from this interview?

[Unknown]

I know. Yeah. Well, I can never begrudge anything since you guys the ball rolling with Rogan, and it wasn't easy. I don't know if you've talked about on the podcast. He very kindly. Fitz said before the book came out that he was doing Rogan. And I didn't know a whole lot about Rogan. I just knew his name and that he had a pretty big platform. But Fitz said, this is so in his ball, it covers every base that he's interested in. What do I tell him about this before the book came out? And I said, well, you know, I've been talking about it for 20 years. Just say this, that, and the other thing. So Fitz did it, and you said that Rogan just wasn't paying attention when you met. You talked about it off mic. Maybe if you talked about it on Mike.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But anyway, after. So nothing happened. You know, I never really thought it might. But then he was doing it again, like six months later, and you said, give me something written down to hand to him. I said, well, I'll give you the book. He goes, no, no, you have a synopsis. So I gave him the book, and I gave him like, a one. You. A one page synopsis. And then later that afternoon, the same day you tape, he calls me up and he says, I just changed your life. You're still looking for points, too. I mean, you thought maybe finally you had equaled me putting roofs over your head.

[Tom O'Neill]

Three or four, according to you.

[Unknown]

And you said, he wants you on. He read the synopsis, and I think he might have even said, why didn't you tell me about him before? And he did. He started texting me that night. And when he announced it, I can't remember if he tweeted or he did something before I was on the book immediately sold out just by his. Before I was even on. And the bad thing was, it was the first month or two months of COVID and all the manufacturing had stopped. All the. Oh, yeah, yeah. So it completely sold. It was in hardcover, and they all sold out immediately. And they couldn't restock because they couldn't print them.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then my mom was going crazy. She was alive then. And she's my biggest supporter and fan. And she was 95. And she's saying, I don't understand why Amazon doesn't have copies and why they can't print them. I go, mom, it's not just that. I said, they can print them because some of the places are opening, but it's transportation. They're only delivering, you know, medical supplies. She goes, tell them I will rent a U Haul and pick them up myself. And she would have so.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, isn't it great though that she got to see your success before she passed?

[Unknown]

Yeah, that was the best thing. And the day it went on sale, she was in suburban Philadelphia, she went to Barnes and Noble and was waiting for them to open the door. And then of course she went in and they didn't have it displayed at eye level. And no one's gonna, you know, say no to a 95 year old Italian woman. So then she had a picture taken of her in front of the display with my book on the top. It was on the front page of Our Town newspaper like a month later. Yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

All right, so let's pivot over to Errol Morris. Well, I mean, the book had different development stages of being made into a documentary. First it was on Amazon Prime.

[Unknown]

No, no, it was a. It was sold to Amazon as a scripted series.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, that was scripted.

[Unknown]

That was scripted.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, I didn't realize that.

[Unknown]

And they made the same mistake. What's the name of the guy you just mentioned?

[Tom O'Neill]

Errol Morris.

[Unknown]

That guy. They made the same mistake. He. Which was to try to make it a film, like a 90 minute film. So when they bought it to make it a film, I said, you can't condense this. And it's not grand.

[Tom O'Neill]

What is it, 700 pages?

[Unknown]

It's like I think 540 or 60 or something. It's long and it's dense. You just can't tell the story. And the poor guy who was hired to adapt the book for a script, I mean, after he spent a week with me, interviewing me and going through my stuff, he goes, now I know why it took you 20 years to write. There's just so much information. And he goes, and I don't know how to make this. I have to do it. It's what I'm hired to do. But I don't know how to make it a feature film. It really should be a series. And I go, go back and tell him that. And he goes, they want a film. So he couldn't do it. And they Dropped it after. Luckily, I got a couple option periods that you get paid every time that, you know. So I got a little money. And then when he dropped it, I agreed to work with Errol Morris. Morris again. I had worked with him on the same project when the book was stalled because my first publisher sued me for a return of the advance. And he and I had creative differences back then and I should have learned my lesson then. But after the scripted thing fell apart, I heard him talking about the footage he'd shot in 2013 at my bungalow in Venice and the soundstage the next day, which he'd cut into a teaser and sold to Netflix for a series before I quit.

[Tom O'Neill]

A docu series.

[Unknown]

A docu series? Yeah, like four hours, five hours of me, basically. You know, I didn't have the book then and I didn't know if I was ever going to be able to resell it because it got canceled and I got sued by the main publisher and I thought it might be my only shot at getting this information out. And he's an Academy Award winning director. But then when we were not agreeing on stuff, and I won't go into detail about what I thought he might be the only representative of my then 16 years of work. I've got to try to sell this as a book. I don't trust him. So I got the book out, thank God. And then when the scripted thing fell apart, I saw him talking on his son's podcast saying how the stuff he shot of me, he didn't name me. He said, I'm not allowed to say who it was in 2013 is probably the best footage I've ever shot in my career. And it's sitting in a vault and no one's ever going to see it. And I heard him say that and I emailed him that day or the next day, and I hadn't emailed him since we broke up in 2013 or 14. And I said, errol, you know, I talk about it all the time. We didn't sign NDAs. You can talk about it when you want. And then I kind of jokingly added, and you know, the Amazon option was not renewed, so it's available again if you want to do it. Thinking the last thing he's going to want to do is work with me again. He was furious when I quit before and he emailed me back right away and said, can we get on the phone? So he made a 90 minute film that doesn't succeed because you can't tell the story in 90 minutes.

[Tom O'Neill]

If it was a docu series. And it could have been eight episodes. It could have been 10 episodes.

[Unknown]

Because the book, 10 different stories.

[Tom O'Neill]

The book represents each sort of like episode of the book, whether it's Jolly west or whether it's Jack Ruby. Those are tips of icebergs of information that you've gotten over the years that could have been delved into. So if you go to Netflix, you can watch the documentary, but just know it's a trailer. It's not, it's not comprehensive in any way, but it's also like number one of the biggest we've watched.

[Unknown]

No, it was the first two weeks. It was the first week. It was number three in the globe for feature films.

[Tom O'Neill]

The whole world.

[Unknown]

The whole world three. And then the next week it went down to eight. And my friends who did the Octopus murders were in the same position. They said, you know, once it's on the Netflix list, it only goes down. It doesn't go up. Whatever it is, the first week or two, that's gonna be the best. So a lot of people, I can't remember what the numbers were. I think, you know, 5 or 6 million the first week, saw it a lot more than I've seen my book. My hope is, though, that people don't see it and think, oh, is that all there is? I don't need to read the book. That's what I have to live with and lose sleep over that if people don't know. Luckily, there have been a bunch of reviews written and even people talking on podcasts and things about how Errol missed the mark. And they say you have to read the book to see how much really important stuff that explains what's in the film that's given short shrift. Is there?

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, right now, I know we can't name names, but there is a multi Grammy winning producer who is.

[Unknown]

Whose name you said about 15 minutes ago.

[Tom O'Neill]

Did I say it?

[Unknown]

Rick Rubin.

[Tom O'Neill]

No, I mean Radio Greg.

[Unknown]

He's about to announce it.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, he is?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

All right. Well, this won't be out for a couple weeks, so it'll be announced by the time this.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's. He's announcing it. He. He has his own platform called Tet. Tera Tet.

[Tom O'Neill]

You should probably find out.

[Unknown]

I can't pronounce it. And I did his podcast last this past summer and he. And I, I met him at Peter Thiel's. Oh, yeah? Yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

Is he on that side of the spectrum?

[Unknown]

I've never asked him. I don't want to know All I know is he thinks he's a very unique thinker.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

As people know, if you follow him, and. Great guy, I really like him. But he was really interested in the book and we kept in touch since we met in 2020. And he got a development deal after he did a very successful Hulu series. I think it's. I've never seen it, but I think it's him and Paul McCartney.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Unknown]

Talking about how Paul McCartney composed the songs he's known for. And he's ever since then wanted to do something with me on the book, but he couldn't because Errol and Netflix own the rights. So he finally found out that once the movie came out a month or so ago, he could do a podcast with me. But it's not. I don't know if it's gonna work. I trust him. But it's like 12 or 20 hours of me just talking about the book with a great interrogator, a woman from London who's really fucking smart and really wonderful and nice. I forget her last name. Her first name is Aisha and there's a T at the end, but the T is silent. She's very big. And he's using this series of her doing a series of interviews with me. We taped them all the week before last. It was like six days of me talking for five or six hours a day and answering her questions and just engaging with her. No visual, just audio.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, really?

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah. And I. I don't know how long it's going to be in the end. I think it might be way too much of Tom. You know, I think I'd sure get bored with it for more than an hour. But, you know, you gotta trust this guy because he usually is pretty good at what he.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, Tommy, you're also very engaging. I used to tease you when you first started doing interviews, you remember what I said about you?

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

I said, you look like you were. You were a hostage giving a statement with a gun to your head.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You're talking about anything on camera.

[Tom O'Neill]

You were so.

[Unknown]

Have I loosened up?

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, my God. No, you're great. Now you're.

[Unknown]

Because I've been doing so many podcasts that pay.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But I'm loyal to my old friends.

[Tom O'Neill]

I told you I would take you.

[Unknown]

Three roofs over the houses.

[Tom O'Neill]

I told you I would take you to dinner at Zinc.

[Unknown]

All right. Right.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah. Which is not cheap.

[Unknown]

It's not that expensive.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, our. The owner of this studio, Paul, eats there all the time. Is it expensive? Paul?

[Unknown]

It's not terrible.

[Tom O'Neill]

It's not terrible.

[Unknown]

It's the one on Venice and Abbot Kinney.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, but you've never seen.

[Unknown]

It's next to Ross.

[Tom O'Neill]

It used to be Venice Aberkini. They moved it to next.

[Unknown]

I got pushed out of Venice by the gentrification, probably you and other people bulldoze my bungalow complex. Fitz stay. Because Fitz owned.

[Tom O'Neill]

I owned. But you got this. You got. You finally got big checks rolling in from the book. Now you can move back to Venice.

[Unknown]

I don't know if I can. I hope so. Maybe. We'll see.

[Tom O'Neill]

Are the checks coming in?

[Unknown]

I've gotten three. You get them every six months, so. It's called earning out on a book.

[Tom O'Neill]

Right.

[Unknown]

So I've gotten three royalties checks.

[Tom O'Neill]

That means that you've covered all the publisher's expenses.

[Unknown]

That happened. Yeah. By the time the book was published, most of my. A lot of my advance went back to the first publisher who had sued me successfully for it.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, they paid you one and a half million dollars and then you didn't give them a book for 20 years.

[Unknown]

No, no, they paid me. I'm not supposed to say that. Well, I don't care. One and a quarter million dollars for the deal. But you don't get paid the whole thing. And you know this. You gotten an advance for. You get an advance. So they pay you the first third of it. So I got a third of that. And then it wasn't 20 years. They quit on me after six years.

[Tom O'Neill]

No.

[Unknown]

Yeah. We signed the deal in 2005 and they pulled the patience at all. Yeah. And they regret it. Believe me, I know. I'm not going to say how. So I had to pay them a third of one and a quarter, which was more than I'd ever had in my entire life. And all of it had gone back into reporting during. In those six years. And when I got the new deal with Little Brown, the best publisher in the world, most of my advance went back to them. And I started making money about. Well, three times six months ago with the royalty checks and they're doing. Everyone's been a little better than the one before, I think. And I get another one in about two weeks. I still don't know if I can afford a place in Venice, but if I can tell, there's talk about doing a scripted thing of the book, but this time a series instead of a feature.

[Tom O'Neill]

Plus, Rick Rubin's probably gonna pay you a lot of money.

[Unknown]

I don't know about that. I mean, like I said, there's no visual it's just us talking, and they're not using my recordings or anything like that, so.

[Tom O'Neill]

All right, one word, Tom. Sequel.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I'm working on it.

[Tom O'Neill]

That's where the money's gonna be because you're gonna get such a big advance based on how the first one did.

[Unknown]

Little Brown has said, we want this, and my agent said, you got to do.

[Tom O'Neill]

I'm like, we said, you've already got mountains of material that didn't get into the first book. It's already written. You just need to.

[Unknown]

But people have to be patient. I need time.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, well, you know, you're not young anymore.

[Unknown]

I know. I'm not gonna be alive 20 more years. I know.

[Tom O'Neill]

20.

[Unknown]

I just jinx myself. Yeah, but, yeah, yeah, no, so the. The second one is in progress, but I haven't committed to it yet because I said, unlike the first one, I'm not releasing a book that doesn't have all the loose ends at the end. No more speculation. And I'm very proud of the first one because I uncovered so much new information that's never been uncovered. And I present a whole new. You know, I proved that the official version isn't true. That was enough in the end.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, you also, you know, look, ultimately, the smoking gun would have been Charles Manson with Jolly west at the. At the clinic, and that's established. But it's just. I mean, look, you don't have a photograph, but you've got timelines of both of them there for the same five years of time.

[Unknown]

Well, not five years, but, yeah, long time.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah, long time.

[Unknown]

There's other stuff that Were you gonna be racist. I thought we're gonna get through the whole thing without you being racist.

[Tom O'Neill]

Ding dong Jesus.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So I'm finally making some money. Thank God.

[Tom O'Neill]

All right, it's time for Fastballs with Fitz. You listen to the podcast. You know how it works, right? I thought you listened to this podcast.

[Unknown]

I did, but not for a long time. Is this new?

[Tom O'Neill]

What does that mean, not for a long time? When did you dismount? You used to listen every week.

[Unknown]

I've been busy with the book. Jesus, now he looks hurt. I don't listen to any podcast.

[Tom O'Neill]

Sometimes I do the podcast and I give you little shout outs, little messages, because I picture at your desk with your nods in.

[Unknown]

No, no, your fucking fans are very kind and let me know.

[Tom O'Neill]

All right, good.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, you got a lot of fans. I know that. That's why I'm here for no money.

[Tom O'Neill]

All right. Let me tell you something. The bar bill's not gonna be steep at zinc. You get a two drink maximum.

[Unknown]

Famous last word. So what are fastballs?

[Tom O'Neill]

All right, fastballs. Just quick questions. Okay? Who is your best female friendship?

[Unknown]

You can't do that. What if they're listening?

[Tom O'Neill]

Tom is famous for having a harem of women that all wanted to marry him before he came out. And they he true broke, literally destroyed lives. There were women that really felt like you were their soulmate, and they kept waiting for you to make a move for years.

[Unknown]

You know, that's not unusual in the closeted gay world because we're everything you aren't to those women. We're compassionate. We listen to them. We don't treat them as sex objects. But if you don't tell them you're gay, they end up, you know, you become their dream man and you finally have to tell them. And there's a couple great stories about that, but I'm not gonna get all my women friends to hate me for talking about them publicly. Yeah. Let's go to the next question.

[Tom O'Neill]

You're not gonna answer?

[Unknown]

No way. Because I know a lot of them do listen to you.

[Tom O'Neill]

Okay, there are two types of people in the world. Go.

[Unknown]

Oh, shit. Liars and truth tellers. You said it's a quick answer. That's all you know.

[Tom O'Neill]

Who do you want to give your eulogy?

[Unknown]

Are these the same questions you ask every guest?

[Tom O'Neill]

I got a basket of them I pull from.

[Unknown]

Can I say who I want to perform at my funeral?

[Tom O'Neill]

Sure.

[Unknown]

Patti Smith.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I wanted to do a southern cross for them, bringing the casket in and elegy when I'm coming out. And then I have a couple other songs written, but that's the mic.

[Tom O'Neill]

We saw her at the Bowery Ballroom in New York years ago.

[Unknown]

Me and you?

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Oh, cool. Yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

Her mom was sitting in the balcony.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah. She would shout out to her up in the balcony. Wow, that's a long time ago.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah. What have you turned down recently?

[Unknown]

Cocaine.

[Tom O'Neill]

I don't believe that for a second.

[Unknown]

On my birthday.

[Tom O'Neill]

Really? Oh, right. I think you told me this.

[Unknown]

I just finished taping with Ruben or his. His people. And then I went to see some friends and they tried to get me. Well, they said, it's your birthday. And I said, I'm exhausted. I've been talking for five hours. I just wanted to come see you guys. And they said, you have that birthday blow. And I said, I'm going home to take a nap. So I turned it down, but I don't do it anymore. Really?

[Tom O'Neill]

Can we say the celebrity that showed up to that party later on.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

Lana Del Rey.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it wasn't, it was the same house, but that was a few nights. Yeah, that party was a few nights before. Oh yeah. So she came and you guys, you and your daughter were at the party and I think your daughter was hoping to meet her.

[Tom O'Neill]

My daughter is obsessed with Lana Del. She literally bought a turntable because she wanted to hear Lana on vinyl. And she bought all of her album. Album? How many? I don't know how many she has. And she, she just listens and she, she, when she found out she might be at that party, she raced there, hung out at not a good party for a couple hours.

[Unknown]

What do you mean not a good party?

[Tom O'Neill]

It's not a good party.

[Unknown]

We. So the party began at 2:00 in the afternoon. It was a birthday.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I was there at like from like 4 to 7. Then I went to your show and then I brought a bunch of the folks from the show and you and, and Jojo back to the party at like what, 10 or 11? Those guys have been partying since 2. So it had dispersed. They were all, you know, kind of drunk and tired.

[Tom O'Neill]

There was a guy in a green sweater who was jacked up on something and he kept, he kept like holding your face.

[Unknown]

He's right in your face.

[Tom O'Neill]

And he put his, he put his arm around your neck and talking to your nose and like it was, it's spittle and no boundaries. No boundaries at all. And the worst part is, is he was kind of interesting, but he reminded me of me back when I drank.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, he had that Irish American. Yeah, yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

Like when I told him that we had sung a pog song, he literally sang the entire Dirty Old Dirty Old Town. He sang the entire song.

[Unknown]

You know, he's a well known painter.

[Tom O'Neill]

Really?

[Unknown]

Yeah. I found that out when I went back to the house to hang out with my friends on the birthday. And I said, your friend was fucking nuts. And they said he's crazy. And they said, it's not cocaine. He's always like, oh, he's always like that. He's always like that. And then they said, you know, he's a very well known painter. And they started showing me his paintings. He gets commissioned to do, you know, like rich people paintings for portraits, restaurants. He's got stuff in the Museum of Modern Art in New York.

[Tom O'Neill]

Well, he must not be talking to them when he's doing the portraits. And they would all look pained.

[Unknown]

So at this party, I mean, Fitz doesn't Party if people don't know. And you were done your show. And I have a friend who's very close to Lana Del Rey. I know nothing about her except her name, that she's a famous singer. I wasn't really a fan of the music, but she said to me, lana's gonna be at the party when we go up there. I was like, oh. So I said to Fisk, you guys are coming. And you're like, no, I'm gonna go.

[Tom O'Neill]

And no, no, no. First you go, you whisper to me, I'm going to a party and Lana Del Rey. I'm not supposed to tell anybody, but Lana Del Rey is going to be there. Don't tell anybody. And then I talk to. And then Joe and then JoJo comes running up to me. Tom's going to a party and Lana Del Rey is going to be there. And then Gibbons comes up, goes, Lana Del Rey is going to. No, not Gibbons, somebody else. And like four different people. I was like, oh, so, all right, so it's out. So Jojo, literally, her jaw was dropped. She was so excited.

[Unknown]

And I honestly thought the only ones that knew were you and JoJo. But now explains why Gubbins and Fitz Gibbon and like 15 of your friends came. Cuz it spread.

[Tom O'Neill]

So. So we leave and then who shows up an hour later?

[Unknown]

No, they. So they all came to the party in Laurel Canyon and then you must have left around by midnight.

[Tom O'Neill]

I did an Irish goodbye about 20 minutes into that party.

[Unknown]

And then I was in the living room and somebody just mentioned Lana Del Rey is in the backyard singing. And I found out later she was singing in the backyard because you could bypass the house and go to the. She just wanted to see the yard. And she said the acoustics here are amazing. And just started singing. And we all stayed in the house. And then she ended up coming in. She found out that my. Her husband and I shared a birthday, which was the following Thursday. So she comes up and just corners me and she's very nice and just saying she wanted to know if I shared the same astrological traits that my signs would. I mean, all this stuff I kept saying, I'm worried you're kind of like talking Chinese to me. She's like, when the sun is rising or the moon is full, do you get like angry or. And I'm like. And she's like, right in your face. I said, I don't know, I don't pay attention. She goes, but you're. You know. And her husband, meanwhile, is a crocodile hunter. Evidently she Married a guy who lives in the bayou. And they live there and back and forth. And he's in the corner and he looks like a killer. I mean, and he's looking at me like she's holding my hand and her face is in my face. I'm like, okay, I'm not hitting on her. Relax, buddy, don't kill me. But I ended up meeting. She brought me over to meet him and he was great. And he was showing me his on his phone. He has these like massive crocodiles on the bayou around their house. And he puts his head in these things that look like dinosaurs while they're alive. They're alive. Yeah. And he feeds them and he kisses their noses. Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom O'Neill]

Dang. She's gonna be a widow pretty soon.

[Unknown]

Jesus, I hope it doesn't. One of them doesn't eat her. So then I should say I started listening to her music the next day and.

[Tom O'Neill]

Incredible.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah. She's really.

[Tom O'Neill]

I discovered her on my own somehow. And then I didn't even realize JoJo was that into her. She's. She's very successful.

[Unknown]

So let me also say I texted JoJo when she was there because I knew JoJo was gone. Like 12:15, maybe. No, I texted Aaron because I didn't have JoJo's number. And Aaron had texted me saying, jojo needs your address when she was on her way over. So I texted Aaron at like 12:15 and I said, tell your daughter to come back. Lana's here. And then I didn't think of anything. And then I left the house at about 3:30. And as soon as I got into my Uber, I wasn't driving and got down toward the bottom of Kirkwood, you know, onto Laurel Canyon. I got service and my phone just goes ping. So it was pinging your wife at 3:30 in the morning to send JoJo back.

[Tom O'Neill]

Oh, God.

[Unknown]

And I realized that. So I started, I text Aaron thinking, I hope it's not waking up. But I said, don't send her back now. I sent that text. It's just going through three hours later.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah. How. What'd you think of JoJo's performance?

[Unknown]

Oh, she was fantastic. And I really, I had no idea she could sing.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I had no idea. I mean, I always know if you guys don't know her, she's the most poised kid you've ever met in your life. I mean, she'll be at a dinner at Your House with 10 a list comedians and me and, you know, and she just holds her own.

[Tom O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And she can be the she'll hope she'll have everybody listening to her. Not intimidated by anything. So on stage, she looked like she didn't have a fear.

[Tom O'Neill]

Is that amazing? She'd never been up in front of people doing that before.

[Unknown]

She's so cool. And she could play guitar and sing. And then I was. I have to say, I was impressed by your harmonica chops.

[Tom O'Neill]

Not bad, right?

[Unknown]

Not bad. Micah Fitzgibbons is a good teacher. I guess.

[Tom O'Neill]

He's the best. All right, last question, and then we're gonna let you go. What is the last time you apologize?

[Unknown]

I don't think I. I don't have any reason to apologize. I was gonna say I don't think I apologize to people. No, I would apologize if it were necessary.

[Tom O'Neill]

You've made more scenes at parties, but.

[Unknown]

In a good way.

[Tom O'Neill]

More. More guffaws.

[Unknown]

I cannot think of an apology I've had.

[Tom O'Neill]

Really? That's the best answer to this question I've ever had.

[Unknown]

Sorry that I don't have an apology for you. There's one right there. But, yeah, I cannot.

[Tom O'Neill]

All right, so we'll go out. All right. The book Chaos is available on everywhere. The. The documentary you can watch, but keep in mind it is not endorsed by the author called Chaos on Netflix. And look for the Rick Rubin, which will be probably out in six months or so.

[Unknown]

No, no, no. I think May. I think.

[Tom O'Neill]

Really? That.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, I was told the end of April, and then when I found out he's going to start promoting it, she said his. His development partner or whatever, that he wants to, like, do it right now. So they sent me something to approve last night, a promo he's created for it. And I'm like, why? It's not even. They haven't even cut it or anything yet. But he's excited, I guess. So that's good.

[Tom O'Neill]

And give people your socials.

[Unknown]

Oh, Instagram and Facebook and Twitter. But I don't know what the handles are.

[Tom O'Neill]

I think it's chaos.

[Unknown]

I know chaos. And Manson might be. I know chaos is in them. If you just Google it, you'll see chaos. Whatever, you know, whatever. It's not that important. Just, you know, get the book.

[Tom O'Neill]

All right. Thanks, Tom.

[Unknown]

Thank you, Fitch. You're the best.