Podcast
Five and Nine: Tarot, Work and Economic Justice
Hosted by Dorothy R. Santos, Xiaowei R. Wang, Mina AX · EN
Five and Nine is a podcast and newsletter at the intersection of magic, work and economic justice, produced by Dorothy R. Santos, Xiaowei R. Wang and Mina AX.
Each season, we publish “moonthly” — on new moons 🌚 and full moons 🌝 — , and we provide an an ongoing critical discussion through readings, reflections and debate.
In these upside down times, it’s time for a new perspective on the classic “9 to 5” (and yes, we’re Dolly Parton fans). In tarot and astrology, reversals and retrogrades matter, because they shed light on our situation in new ways. Five represents turning points and change, and Nine represents a coming to completion.
We’re all rethinking the meaning of labor and justice in our lives. Our lives and livelihoods are more essential than ever in identifying ways forward for society that can be grounded in care, compassion and sustainability.
This podcast is always free, and we're supported by paid members. Learn more at thisisfiveandnine.com.
Remember that tarot, magic and the other practices we discuss are not a substitute for psychiatric or mental health care services. We present this content as-is, for entertainment and educational purposes only.
fiveandnine.substack.com
fiveandnine.substack.com
10episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
🌚 Guest Episode: The Audience of Magic (Audiences Podcast)
Nov 2201:08:16Tap to summarizeWho’s the Audience of Magic? How has it evolved over the past few years? Where is it going next? 🪄From TikTok tarot readings to “manifesting crypto gains”, we explore how audiences are engaging with magic to reassert individual agency, reinterpret identity, and regain some level of control over systems trying to define them.In this episode, Five and Nine’s Mina AX and Dorothy R. Santos, PhD, have a magical conversation with The Audiences Podcast, hosted by Francesco D’Orazio and produced by Sal Morton.They dissect AI-generated audience personas to ask what happens when machine learning tries to map belief. Throughout, they reflect on the rise of mystical frameworks not as escape, but as resistance: a response to overexposure, over-simulation, and a growing desire to feel agency again. Whether it’s tarot as feedback loop, divination as dialogue, or witchcraft as subculture, magic is increasingly where audiences go to find meaning beyond the algorithm.About The Audiences PodcastThe Audiences Podcast is the audience discovery show. We talk to guests who build audiences for a living. And as we discuss what it takes to build an audience, we explore new emerging audiences in fashion, tech, media and many other industries. Subscribe to never miss an episode. Subscribe to never miss an episode.About Five and Nine PodcastFive and Nine is a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We publish “moonthly” — every new moon 🌚 and full moon 🌝 — , and we provide an ongoing critical discussion through readings, reflections and debate.Learn more at thisisfiveandnine.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →
🌚 Retro: Magic in the Everyday, with Helen Shewolfe Tseng (2.02)
Jan 3, 202500:29:56Tap to summarizeThis is Five and Nine, a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We’re in the midst of Season 5, on the theme of Generation, but we wanted to take a brief look back at Season 2 with a “retro” episode originally published September 2022.SummaryHow can everyday magic helps us navigate change?Five and Nine talks with artist, designer, and witch Helen Shewolfe Tseng. They share their work on growth spells, drawings made over an extended period of time for personal healing and transformation, and their Coyote Portals series, inspired by the fission-fusion adaptations and mythos of these often misunderstood animals. We also talk about what we learned in nature during lockdown and how to find grounding in uncertain times, from petting our plants to working with free ballpoint pens.Season 2 is about transitions. As fall sets in in the northern hemisphere and spring int he south, Five and Nine looks at change in all its forms — leaving jobs, changing industries, starting new paths, and the wisdom that tarot and magic have to offer in a world that seems to be ever in flux.ResourcesFrom Our Guest* Helen Shewolfe Tseng* Growth Spells* Coyote Portals (prints available here!)* The Man Who Could Move Clouds, by Ingrid Rojas ContrerasMusic* Episode: Bow Wow Blues, performed by the Original Dixieland Jazz Band, 1921.* Outro: Ain’t we got fun, composed by Richard A. Whiting and performed by the Benson Orchestra of Chicago, 1921. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →
🌚 5.02. Haunting through the Glitch
Dec 9, 202400:32:17Tap to summarizeSeason 5 returns with a conversation between the Five and Nine co-founders, long-time collaborators, and friends, Xiaowei, AX, and Dorothy. While AX was in Jordan for Season 4, Xiaowei and Dorothy were in their metaphorical caves completing their dissertations and transitioning out of one academic realm into another while balancing commitments and obligations, but we survived and have become Dr. Xiaowei Wang and Dr. Dorothy R. Santos!This season, we ask our guests about generation(s) and not only in terms of silos (e.g., Gen X, Gen Z, Millenials, etc.), but about what it means to view generation as a verb and how we might think of building from crisis and ruins of ideologies and beliefs that no longer collectively serve us. In this episode, we talk about love, grief and what it means to be fully oneself.The deck used in Season 5 is the Mixed Signals Tarot, designed by Season 3 guest M Eifler/BlinkPopShift. Music is written, composed, and performed by Anna Luisa Petrisko.Five and Nine is a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We publish “moonthly” — around the new moon and full moon — , and we provide an ongoing critical discussion through readings, reflections and debate. Five and Nine is produced by Five and Nine Futures Lab, a research, design and strategy consultancy that helps organizations and companies build better futures through the lens of work, care and magic.In this new world, we’re all rethinking the meaning of work and justice in our lives. Our lives and livelihoods are more essential than ever in identifying ways forward for society that can be grounded in care, compassion and sustainability. Learn more at thisisfiveandnine.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →
🌚 5.01. Generation (Season Premiere)
Oct 31, 202400:38:12Tap to summarizeSeason 5 returns with a conversation between the Five and Nine co-founders, long-time collaborators, and friends, Xiaowei, AX, and Dorothy. While AX was in Jordan for Season 4, Xiaowei and Dorothy were in their metaphorical caves completing their dissertations and transitioning out of one academic realm into another while balancing commitments and obligations, but we survived and have become Dr. Xiaowei Wang and Dr. Dorothy R. Santos!This season, we ask our guests about generation(s) and not only in terms of silos (e.g., Gen X, Gen Z, Millenials, etc.), but about what it means to view generation as a verb and how we might think of building from crisis and ruins of ideologies and beliefs that no longer collectively serve us. In this episode, we talk about love, grief and what it means to be fully oneself.The deck used in Season 5 is the Mixed Signals Tarot, designed by Season 3 guest M Eifler/BlinkPopShift. Music is written, composed, and performed by Anna Luisa Petrisko.Five and Nine is a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We publish “moonthly” — around the new moon and full moon — , and we provide an ongoing critical discussion through readings, reflections and debate. Five and Nine is produced by Five and Nine Futures Lab, a research, design and strategy consultancy that helps organizations and companies build better futures through the lens of work, care and magic.In this new world, we’re all rethinking the meaning of work and justice in our lives. Our lives and livelihoods are more essential than ever in identifying ways forward for society that can be grounded in care, compassion and sustainability. Learn more at thisisfiveandnine.com This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →
🌚 4.10. Desert Residency Discs: Bearing Witness to Crisis (Season Finale)
May 13, 202400:41:43Tap to summarizeFor the Season 4 finale, we break out a new format: Desert Residency Discs, inspired by the popular BBC show Desert Island Discs. We listen to music recorded on location in the Wadi Rum Desert, and we talk about some of the major themes from the residency, including crisis, bearing witness, why sound and music hold us through difficult moments, and how to be present, whatever the circumstances. We close with a tarot reading that builds on our reflections around the elements of air, water and fire. Also: tune in as we learn to sing like camels.Music performed by Hashim Bin Muaitiq, Nour Batyne and Britt Pham, recorded live in Wadi Rum.Tarot Cards in This EpisodeThe cards discussed are The Tower, Six of Cups and Two of Wands. The deck used in this episode is the Mixed Signals Tarot deck designed by M Eifler.Images of the cards are available at thisisfiveandnine.com.Season 4 is co-presented with One of Many Studio (OoM), an experience design studio at the intersection of healing and justice work, connecting people with what it means to be a Future Ancestor.Five and Nine is a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We publish “moonthly” — every new moon 🌚 and full moon 🌝 — , and we provide an ongoing critical discussion through readings, reflections and debate. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →
🌝 Live Episode: Centering Our Healing Gifts
Feb 24, 202400:33:18Tap to summarizeIntroducing Five and Nine Live!Following up on Episode 4.07. Awakening the Healer, we present our very first live podcast recording — a special episode for Season 4 recorded live at the Center for the Enlightenment Arts in Bushwick, Brooklyn, at Gathering Future Ancestors: a meditative experience of immersive storytelling, participatory art, and sound — exploring water as an entryway to our shared humanity.In this discussion, host AX Mina and guest Helen Banach talk about multihyphenate life, the practice of healing and the difference between holding space and holding pain. They close with a tarot reading for the collective using the Mixed Signals Tarot deck designed by M Eifler, with insights on how to navigate grief, cultivate care and tend to the fire within all of us to build differently in this time of deep crisis.The Season 4 finale will be coming out in the next few weeks. In the meantime, check out our most recent episodes with the 2023 residents of One of Many Studio’s Wadi Rum residency:* Azad's Kite: Art in a Time of Crisis* Learning to Trust the Gut* It's More Clear at the Bottom* PLUS a bonus minisode of our Embodied Water PracticeTarot Cards Discussed* Five of Cups* Seven of Cups* Eight of Wands* Queen of Swords (aka Maker of Swords in the Mixed Signals Deck)Images of the cards are available at thisisfiveandnine.com.Season 4 is co-presented with One of Many Studio (OoM), an experience design studio at the intersection of healing and justice work. We envision a movement of Future Ancestors built through transformative, intentionally curated experiences. Connect with OoM on Substack.Five and Nine is a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We publish “moonthly” — every new moon 🌚 and full moon 🌝 — , and we provide an ongoing critical discussion through readings, reflections and debate. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →
🌝 4.09. Learning to Trust the Gut
Jan 29, 202400:27:34Tap to summarize“I was always the busy one,” says our guest Hana of her life before COVID lockdowns. In this final interview of Season 4, we talk about the power of being by oneself, how it feels to jump back into a familiar line of work, and the importance of intuition. We look at present-day Petra, the famous city of stone nestled in southern Jordan, and we close with a tarot reading that captures the essence of acceptance in the face of change. Also: remembering to look up.Five and Nine Season 4 is about crisis. It’s our first season recorded on location, with the majority of our episodes produced in the beautiful Wadi Rum desert in Jordan, thanks to a special artist residency hosted by One of Many Studio (OoM). Music performed by Hashim Bin Muaitiq, recorded live in Wadi Rum.Season 4 is co-presented with One of Many Studio, an experience design studio at the intersection of healing and justice work. We envision a movement of Future Ancestors built through transformative, intentionally curated experiences.Five and Nine is a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We publish “moonthly” — every new moon 🌚 and full moon 🌝 — , and we provide an ongoing critical discussion through readings, reflections and debate. Five and Nine is produced by Five and Nine Futures Lab, a research, design and strategy consultancy that helps organizations and companies build better futures through the lens of work, care and magic.In this new world, we’re all rethinking the meaning of work and justice in our lives. Our lives and livelihoods are more essential than ever in identifying ways forward for society that can be grounded in care, compassion and sustainability. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →
🌛 4.08. Adelle's Scroll: The Poetry of Water and Written Language
Jan 17, 202400:15:46Tap to summarizeSymbolic language is at the heart of magic and also at the heart of human expression. In this minisode, Five and Nine joins Adelle Lin, an artist and technologist who explores the poetry of water and the Arabic, Chinese and Hebrew languages in the desert. We talk about time, displacement, and what it feels like to roll a 160 foot scroll down the side of a hill. Also: Ana offers a reflection on deep time and where water comes from.Five and Nine Season 4 is about crisis. It’s our first season recorded on location, with the majority of our episodes produced in the beautiful Wadi Rum desert in Jordan, thanks to a special artist residency hosted by One of Many Studio (OoM).Music performed by Hashim Bin Muaitiq, recorded live in Wadi Rum.Season 4 is co-presented with One of Many Studio (OoM), an experience design & consulting studio connecting people with what it means to be a Future Ancestor. OoM works at the intersection of immersive experiences and social change, elevating critical conversations to transform the way we relate to ourselves, each other, and our legacies.Five and Nine is a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We publish “moonthly” — every new moon 🌚 and full moon 🌝 — , and we provide an ongoing critical discussion through readings, reflections and debate. Five and Nine is produced by Five and Nine Futures Lab, a research, design and strategy consultancy that helps organizations and companies build better futures through the lens of work, care and magic.In this new world, we’re all rethinking the meaning of work and justice in our lives. Our lives and livelihoods are more essential than ever in identifying ways forward for society that can be grounded in care, compassion and sustainability. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →
🌚 Retro: Transformation in Slowing Down, with Nour Batyne (3.04)
Jan 12, 202400:34:11Tap to summarizeThis is Five and Nine, a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We’re in the midst of Season 4, recorded online and on location in the Wadi Rum Desert in Jordan, but we wanted to take a brief look back at Season 3 with a “retro” episode with One of Many co-founder Nour Batyne.Futures thinker, artist and creative producer Nour Batyne reminds us to slow down to the speed of presence. The future is not just space travel and new technology but the legacy we leave as future ancestors. We'll hear from Nour how she decided to make the leap from the nine to five life into starting her own studio, and we'll learn about the influence of her teita, or grandmother, on her life and practice, and why land acknowledgements are so important.Nour offers a meditation that helps us face the climate crisis by honoring our interconnectedness, and we'll hear her and her cousin sing an Arabic Galilean folk song in honor of her grandmother. Also: why the smell of jasmine means freedom.Season 3’s focus was about rest. In a time of extended crisis, permacrisis and polycrisis, taking time to decompress is not just a benefit but a necessity. Learning to slow down, reflect and make space for expansive thinking is part of what makes rest so sweet but also so elusive. Grab a blanket, turn down the lights, and turn up Five and Nine this season to hear new perspectives on the age old practice of reflection, rejuvenation and recovery.About Our Guest* One of Many Studio, co-founded by Nour Batyne and Britt Pham* Wadi Rum ResidencyTarot Cards Discussed* Two of SwordsResources* Umm Kulthum* Levina Li* Seven Generation PrincipleMusic* Episode: That soothing serenade (Was just written for me), composed by Harry De Costa and performed by Henry Burr, 1918.* Closing: يما مويل الهوا (Yamma Mweil Al Hawa), performed by Nour Batyne and Bushra Batyne at Bars for Thought, an open mic poetry night in Brooklyn, 2023. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →
🌌 Bonus Episode: Embodied Water Practice, with One of Many Studio
Dec 21, 202300:04:24Tap to summarizeIt’s the still of winter here in the northern hemisphere as the solstice arrives, and we just have a few more episodes of Season 4 left.In this bonus minisode, Season 4 co-hosts Britt Pham and Nour Batyne of One of Many Studio offer a meditation that helps us face the climate crisis by honoring our interconnectedness.“We are gathering among unceded waters,” they offer. “These waters hold the legacy and the souls of ancestors who stewarded them with humanity in the face of violence and inhumanity. We honor them.”Related episodes:* 🌚 3.04. Transformation in Slowing Down, with Nour Batyne* 🌚 Bonus Episode: A Meditation for Aliveness, by Britt PhamSeason 4 is co-presented with One of Many Studio (OoM), an experience design & consulting studio connecting people with what it means to be a Future Ancestor. OoM works at the intersection of immersive experiences and social change, elevating critical conversations to transform the way we relate to ourselves, each other, and our legacies.Five and Nine is a podcast and newsletter at the crossroads of magic, work and economic justice. We publish “moonthly” — every new moon 🌚 and full moon 🌝 — , and we provide an ongoing critical discussion through readings, reflections and debate. Five and Nine is produced by Five and Nine Futures Lab, a research, design and strategy consultancy that helps organizations and companies build better futures through the lens of work, care and magic.In this new world, we’re all rethinking the meaning of work and justice in our lives. Our lives and livelihoods are more essential than ever in identifying ways forward for society that can be grounded in care, compassion and sustainability. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit fiveandnine.substack.com/subscribe
Transcribe →