Anna Konkle on Pen15 & the Sane One

Summary

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Flightless Bird Podcast

Episode: Anna Konkle on Pen15 & the Sane One

Host: David Farrier
Date: May 19, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, David Farrier and cohost Rob are joined by Anna Konkle—the co-creator and star of the beloved comedy series Pen15—to explore the nostalgia, awkwardness, and universal trauma of adolescence, particularly through the lens of American culture circa the year 2000. Anna discusses the making of Pen15, her new memoir The Sane One, family dynamics, growing up in New England, and the intersection of personal memory and pop culture. The conversation is warm, candid, and often hilarious, touching on everything from AOL Instant Messenger to childhood trading cards, carnivals, Girl Scouts, and the evolving complexity of American childhood.

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Main Topics & Key Insights

Pen15: A Universal Coming-of-Age (13:19–20:48)

• Anna and Maya’s Vision of Anywhere, USA
  • The show was set in a generic, almost liminal American suburbia. Anna notes, "We sort of decided that... it was like anywhere Ville, USA." (14:20)
  • Despite their different backgrounds (Anna from New England, Maya from LA), what connected them was a universal feeling of barely surviving adolescence.
• Playing 13 as 30-Somethings
  • A central conceit was having adult women play their adolescent selves, acting against real kids—"a deeply unusual thing to pitch and really unusual thing to make." (15:13, Farrier)
  • Extreme attention to detail: prosthetic braces, era-appropriate hair, even adding hair to their eyebrows for "pre-plucked" authenticity.
  • "No one mentions the hair ... We added hair to our eyebrows, we add to our ... it's pre-plucked." (15:04, Anna)
• Universal Embarrassments
  • The writers room was fixated on micro-details; debates ranged from "nano pet" vs "giga pet" to regional differences in trends. (16:15)
  • Anna and Maya shared openly about their own coming-of-age embarrassments—"Most of the events are real ... some sort of mashup of me and Maya’s lives for the most part." (22:51, Anna)
• Masturbation Rumors & Icebox Nickname
  • Anna recounts a childhood rumor about her and an ice cube: “There was a rumor that went around about me when I was 13... that I masturbated with an ice cube. … It never went away. Like, through college, people would text me late night, like 'What are you doing, Icebox?'" (18:12–19:26, Anna)
• Adolescence as a Minefield
  • Show captures those cringey, formative moments—awkward first kisses, devastating crushes, moments of bullying, and feeling like an outsider.
  • “It reminds you just how insecure you are as a kid. How hugely important every little thing that actually matters not at all now.” (06:04, Rob)

Early Internet Nostalgia & Generational Change (19:48–22:49)

• AOL, Away Messages, and X World
  • The show relishes the era of dial-up Internet, AIM messages, and curating MySpace profiles.
  • Anna: "It was just enough... There are times now where I'm like, I need some sort of something I can put on my computer that makes everything slow again." (20:13)
  • Farrier reminisces about "X World" in New Zealand: "When you logged in, you arrived at X World… It was so fucking exciting. It was $5 an hour." (21:52, David)
• The Disposability of Digital Memories
  • They reflect on how, despite everything being documented now, digital records may not last: “I've got containers of DVDs that I don't have a DVD player anymore... zip disks… all that history is going to be gone.” (57:03, Rob)

Family & Parental Dynamics (28:23–35:36)

• Divorce, Parental Estrangement, and Grief
  • Anna openly discusses the real family trauma behind Pen15, like living in a house where her parents split but continued cohabitating: “That was like the TV comedy version of it … There was just, like, these more intense storylines below.” (28:23-28:57, Anna)
  • Estrangement and reconciliation with her father just before his illness and death: "We started to heal things… then he was given one to five years. He got sick … I was his caregiver for those two months." (30:29, Anna)
• Art Imitates Life
  • Filming scenes based on real, painful memories: "I'd be with my dad… then flying back and with my TV dad… doing this scene to the best of my memory, you know, word for word…" (33:12–34:34, Anna)
  • Notable, emotional anecdote: "I just burst out crying in the middle of the scene... my dad, you know, just passed, and [my TV dad] just gave me a really long hug." (34:23, Anna)

Anna’s Memoir: The Sane One (36:03 onward)

• Motivation for Writing
  • Anna details how Pen15 gave her the confidence to write memoir: “My point of view, as serious as it can sound, sometimes is funny… There were a lot of people... in a way that I didn't expect to be like, 'Oh, that happened to me too.'" (36:03, Anna)

Snapshots of American Childhood (Carnivals, Girl Scouts, Trading Cards)

• Carnivals and Fairs (50:22–53:07)
  • Anna loves traveling carnivals for their magic and symbolism as coming-of-age equalizers: “It was an equalizer… all the kids hanging out and winning the stuffed animals and it was an equalizer.” (51:03, Anna)
  • The group swaps horror and nostalgia stories from local fairs, church parking lot rides, and the ritual of those summer events.
• Scouting and Youth Organizations (53:15–56:17)
  • Discussion of Girl Scouts, cookies, and how American the whole system feels.
  • Rob describes the problematic “Indian Princess/Indian Guides” experience in his childhood: “I was in the Comanche tribe… There was a chief… It was a father son bonding…” (53:49, Rob)
• Trading Cards & Beanie Babies (59:13–63:37)
  • Anna's heartbreak: as a child, she traded a valuable rookie Larry Bird card for “4 X-Men cards”—her brother was devastated, and she still thinks about it: “He never gave it back. And I think about it probably once every four months.” (61:28, Anna)

Changing Childhoods & Technology (47:20–49:55)

• Pen15’s Legacy with Modern Kids
  • The show, chopped into TikTok clips, introduces Anna to a new, often surprised Gen-Z audience: “They don't know [Pen15] is a television show... They go, “You're the one that calls your mama cunt.” (47:35–47:58, Anna)
  • She’s both reassured and worried about the permanence of content and digital overload.
• Parenting in a Tech World
  • Debate over whether to let young kids online, learning technology, AI (Claude), and being left behind.
  • “Even just seeing how our four year old can use the iPad and he's doing like puzzles and stuff…” (49:32, Rob)
  • “The Internet scares me for kids… think about the algorithms.” (49:03, Anna)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Adolescence:
  "I think my main takeaway in the first few episodes is just how cringy being kid was. Like, that's what they captured so perfectly on that show.”
  — Rob, (05:04)

• On Detail-Obsessed Writing:
  “We were so psychotic about the details... it was natural for us to debate and analyze like what was happening in LA versus my town.”
  — Anna, (16:15)

• On the Endurance of Adolescent Shame:
  “There was a rumor that went around about me when I was 13... that I masturbated with an ice cube... and it never went away. Like, through college, people would text me late night, like 'What are you doing, Icebox?'”
  — Anna, (18:12–19:26)

• On the Early Internet:
  "I remember my dad saying that a family friend was investing in an online mall and I pictured like a digital mall, where you would like walk the halls and like your avatar would like go in a mall."
  — Anna, (46:36)

• On American Childhood Culture:
  “I loved aim. There was a lot of, like, posing to be a kid that fit in … I really prefer being an adult to being a kid.”
  — Anna, (41:57–42:21)

• On Modern Kids Discovering Pen15:
  “Now on TikTok ... mostly I get stopped by teenagers. People just... they don't know it's a television show.”
  — Anna, (47:35)

• On Memoir as Healing:
  “There were a lot of people... be like, 'Oh, that happened to me too.' And I have found a lot of healing and reassurance in other people's memoirs, and especially when they're funny, especially when they're tragic and funny together, something about that is a relief.”
  — Anna, (36:03)

• On Digital Memories Being Lost:
  “I've got containers of DVDs that I don't have a DVD player anymore ... zip disks… all that history is going to be gone.”
  — Rob, (57:03)

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Segments & Timestamps

• Pen15 Origins, Universal Nostalgia — 13:19–20:48
• The Trauma of Middle School & School Concerts — 05:04–12:13
• Early Internet Culture & New Zealand's X World — 19:48–22:49
• Family Dynamics & Memoir — 28:23–37:06
• American Childhood Traditions (Carnivals, Scouts, Cards) — 50:22–63:37
• Parenting in a Digital World — 47:20–49:55
• Trading Cards, Beanie Babies, Lost Childhood Investments — 59:13–63:37
• Listener Feedback & Cultural Critique — 80:48 onward

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Tone & Style

The conversation is unfiltered, emotionally honest, and at times riotously funny. Anna’s vivid recollections and willingness to embrace awkwardness give the episode a confessional, relatable energy, while David and Rob’s outsider/insider American perspectives keep the show warm, irreverent, and always curious.

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Conclusion

This densely packed episode is a treat for Pen15 fans and anyone interested in the unique flavor of American adolescence and nostalgia. Anna Konkle is refreshingly open about her personal history, the pain and humor of growing up, and the strange afterlives of pop culture in the Internet age. The conversation is a time capsule—part therapy, part pop anthropology—drawing a line between the universal pangs of growing up and the idiosyncrasies that make every childhood both strange and special.

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Anna’s memoir "The Sane One" is out now.
You can watch Pen15 on Hulu and keep up with Flightless Bird for future deep dives into American culture.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello, David.

[B]

Hi, Rosabelle. It's such a delight to be talking

[A]

to you after all this time, after all these many attempts.

[B]

Now, am I right in thinking you're a bit sick at the moment?

[A]

I'm a bit thick sick.

[B]

I would never call you sick. No, it's because I'm wearing this retainer. I'm slurring some words. It's a real problem. Oh, my God. Now look, Roosevelt, I've got some great news for you. You and I, I know, are both big fans of Pen15. And today on the show we have Anna Conkle, who was one of the co creators and stars of Pen15, an amazing TV show.

[A]

It is amazing. It's one of the best shows.

[B]

What is your favorite thing about Pen15?

[A]

There are just so many incredible details that it felt like. Not like a therapy session, but, you know, when people unearth details about being that age and you're like, oh my God, that's exactly what it was like. Or that's exactly that weird thing that I. Yeah.

[B]

That you'd never really thought about since.

[A]

Right, exactly. Because it seems so inconsequential or so embarrassing that you repress it and suddenly all those things are there. And also how strange that they're so universal.

[B]

Whether you're in New Zealand, America, we're all the same. And I got to observe whilst we've had this conversation about today's Flightless Bird episode, I feel you've really perked up. I feel like you might be getting better.

[A]

I think you've cured me. I think I just needed to talk to my friend David all along.

[B]

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America. And I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now, I think it's fair to say that Rob and I both enjoy elements of American pop culture. And somehow with me in New Zealand and him in the USA, we both got very obsessed with a show called Pen15. It was a series airing in 2019 about two awkward seventh graders trying to navigate school. The catch was the two leads were played by a couple of women in their 30s, while everyone else was played by actual kids. Essentially two 31 year olds in a sea of 13 year olds. If you're wondering why it's called Pen 15, by the way, which I did was an old prank, I think, in America. I don't think we had this in New Zealand where you'd get someone to write pen15club on their arm to join the, the, the p15club. But of course, p15 looks like penis. And so you're writing penis club on your arm. Did that happen to you, Rob?

[C]

I. I know about the Pen15 club.

[B]

Yeah. The show tapped into many amazing elements of being a kid, especially being a kid in the usa. And so when we heard co creator Anna Conkle had a book coming out reflecting back on her own life and the show and a bunch of stuff Flightless Bird is really interested in, we had to have her on. So be prepared to go back in time to America in the year 2000, along with dysfunctional family dynamics, pimples, bowl cuts, and awkward first kisses, because this is the Anna Conkle episode.

[A]

Flightless, flightless, flightless bird Touchdown in America I'm a flightless bird Touchdown in America.

[B]

Hi, Rob.

[C]

Hey, David.

[B]

How are you?

[C]

Good, good. Welcome back.

[B]

It's nice to be back. Whirlwind trip. New York City, baby. Yeah, you.

[C]

You really went across the whole country.

[B]

I'm walking here. Get out of my. Get out of my way.

[C]

You pick up some new sayings while you were gone?

[B]

A little bit like that. I went to New York for the Webby Awards, which Patreon subscribers will know about because we did an episode about reflecting on them. We won two awards. Trophies are on the way, Allegedly in the mail. I had a fun night. A lot of celebrities around, A lot of cake. A lot of cake. I got served so many bits of cake. Felt ill at the end of it. It was a beautiful New York spring, and probably my highlights besides the Webbies were. I went to a Boy Throb concert, which we will discuss over on Patreon. Boy Throb are a new boy band. Are they real? Are they not? We don't know what's going on. Very curious about that. And what else? There was something else. Oh, I did an episode. I recorded an episode which I'll put together kind of about rubbish in New York, because New York, we had talked about this a little bit. A very. They love putting their rubbish bags out on the street. There's a lot of rats. You see rats everywhere. And so I recorded an episode sort of based around rubbish.

[C]

Well, I'll keep. I'll keep my initial thoughts to myself.

[B]

Keep them to yourself.

[C]

And I can't believe pen15 was 7 years ago.

[B]

One thing I really dislike about getting older is you look back on some of your favorite things and it feels like they were a couple of years ago, and you find out that, oh, that concert was 20 years ago now. That album came out 15 years ago. Oh, pin 15 is almost a decade old.

[C]

Yeah. That's crazy.

[B]

It's horrible.

[C]

I started rewatching it this week.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Because I knew we were going to have conversation about this. And I wanted to remember what I loved about the show because it's been

[B]

so fucking long ago.

[C]

I think my main takeaway in the first few episodes is just how cringy being kid was. Like, that's what they captured so perfectly on that show.

[B]

And if you haven't seen it, these two lead actors, Anna being one of them, they and Maya, they. They age themselves back to their age so well, like, it's a real magic trick.

[C]

They give Anna braces and style her hair as you would have in the 90s. And I think Maya has just, like, retainer and a bowl cut.

[B]

Yeah, the bowl cut is incredible. And I mean, I had braces at school. I had pimples all over my face. I got glasses when I was about 15. I was a complete wreck. And you're already feeling so not at home in your own body when you have to throw this other shit on top of it, like haircuts and what fashion you're wearing. It just becomes. It is. It's a Nightmare. And Pier 15 reminds you of all of that?

[C]

Well, it reminds you just how insecure you are as a kid. How hugely important every little thing that actually matters not at all now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Was. That was hard to watch more than a couple at a time. Just because it brought me back to such a weird time.

[B]

Yeah, it's brutal. They're brutal things to watch. And it's. And it's things like the. You know, your crush, what. What you think of them and how you communicate with them and parties and what your parents are making you wear and all that stuff. What backpack you're wearing.

[C]

Well, and like, bullying and like, they're one of the early episodes. Maya thinks that some of the, like, cool guys have a crush on her. And it all culminates to them fighting at the schoolyard and trying to figure out what's the meanest thing you can say to them. And she ends up pushing it too far. And I'm cringing and saying something about this. His dad dying.

[B]

Yeah. Awful. It's like. It's a bit. It feels a little bit like a curb your enthusiasm. Energy. A very different style of show, but hard to watch at times because you're just inwardly dying. And you have to be in the right mood to be up for that.

[C]

But also so good because it's. It perfectly encapsulates kind of the nostalgia of growing up a 90s kid.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Which. So speaking of, I. I just came from an elementary school because Calvin had an orchestra recital. So it was. It was like felt very much hit the scene. I mean, you wait in line with a bunch of parents that I don't know. I'm hearing some of them in front of me talk about like the kid at soccer that they hate. That's like a bully.

[B]

Gossip about the kids at the school.

[C]

And then it's just packing in to the auditorium, which not very big.

[B]

Are you sitting on rows of plastic chairs or you on.

[C]

They're folding metal. Metal folding chairs that are set up but just like really scattered. A lot of people lining up on the walls, I think to be able to escape if they need standing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And just like get out early if.

[B]

Which is get the hell out of here.

[C]

Yeah. And then there it was like a whole bunch of chairs in front of different sections of the orchestra. And then up on the stage was like the reed instruments. And so Calvin's playing the trumpet. He was back left row. Like I couldn't even see him. But he like kept poking his head

[B]

out to wave because he'd be looking like. They're all looking for their parents, these kids. Right. They're. So that's why you're there.

[C]

Yes. That's also the most like heart pulling thing when you go to these is like you're walking in the auditorium doors and you're seeing the kids like poke their heads around.

[B]

Like you're like a sea of little parrots.

[C]

Yes. And if they don't see you like you see them just like searching for you.

[B]

I feel it's a key moment in so many American films where the parents rushing to get to rehearsal or something. To get to like a performance.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And he gets pulled over by the cop.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

All of that very end. But the kids looking around and.

[B]

Yeah. It's like devastating. Yes. Okay, so Calvin spotted you.

[C]

Spotted me. Waved.

[B]

Right. How the big. Right. How was the performance?

[C]

Well, I want to give it a

[B]

rating out of 10.

[C]

I want to be great.

[B]

Zero being a nightmare.

[C]

I wanted to do a test with you. I wanted to see if you could tell some of the songs that they were playing.

[B]

Okay. Are they sort of modern covers or are they all classics?

[C]

We'll find out.

[B]

But emotes are.

[C]

We'll find out.

[B]

Yeah. I know that song. What is it? It's huge.

[C]

Hey Jude, Beatles. Okay. You better get this one.

[B]

I have no idea what this is. Oh, I thought I was close at one point. Just give me one more Give me one more go.

[C]

One more go of it.

[B]

Okay. No, I have no idea.

[C]

That was All Star by Smash Mouth.

[B]

Oh, wow. Hey, now you're an all star, which I did love.

[C]

Some of these choices.

[B]

I feel like I almost. Bits of that were registering something in my mind.

[C]

This last one you better get.

[B]

Oh, dressing pack. My God. Beautiful. Keep it going, Keep it going. Is that a little flute recorder in there? This is beautiful. Rob, that's incredible. Incredible. Some. Some discordant notes in the mix.

[C]

A little squeaky.

[B]

But look, as someone that attempted to play the saxophone in high school and was terr. Terrible at it. That shit's hard. It's really hard. That they did really well. They're little kids.

[C]

I mean, this. This was perfect way to spend my morning. We're about to go reminisce on pen15.

[B]

Your brain is just full of that noise. How long was the performance? Roughly, like half an hour.

[C]

It was an hour long.

[B]

An hour long.

[C]

They did four. I mean, the nice thing was that nothing was longer than like 20 or 30 seconds.

[B]

Okay. All little snippets of things.

[C]

They didn't play full songs ever.

[B]

Were there any kind of kid freakouts or meltdowns or moments that sort of stood out or. They all held it together.

[C]

They all held it together. One of the. I guess they got a pick. So it was like four full orchestra pieces, but then each section of the orchestra did two to three songs that they picked.

[B]

Cute.

[C]

That were just like, short.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

15 second bits. One of them was Slim Shady.

[B]

The kids are still. Kids are still listening to Eminem.

[C]

I couldn't hear it at all when they played it.

[B]

But, yeah, amazing.

[C]

We were told it was Slim Shady.

[B]

And how. Just finally afterwards, how was Calvin? Was he stoked with his whole thing? Was he happy?

[C]

Yeah, he was very happy. He ran over and. Yeah.

[B]

Rob, my heart. Jurassic Park. That was beautiful. Okay, should we roll our interview with wonderful Anna Conkle?

[C]

Yeah, let's get into it.

[B]

Thank you for being here.

[A]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

Let's rewind to pen 15 because that's how I think a lot of people would have come to your work. I know Rob and I came, I think, to your stuff that way. And I said to you earlier, Rosabelle and I in New Zealand watched that show and adored it. And I think what sort of was interested about. For our show, which is about American culture, is that was sort of a very specific time in being a kid in America. In the. What sort of 2000ish time? America Online. Dial up.

[C]

You're an 87 baby. Yeah, I'm an 88. So it was 82. Very lined.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well I always want to know like if it, you know, and I'm so curious for New Zealand, if it felt like resonant or wear it. You were like, well that's weird. That's not us.

[B]

Oh, it resonated.

[C]

You grew up in New England.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Which is its own type of America. And Maya was la.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So how was figuring out what was it just universal?

[A]

Mostly. Yes. I mean we sort of decided that, you know, we didn't talk about it much but that it was like anywhere Ville, usa. And we're kind of stuck in limbo as these, you know, when we first pitched it, 28 year old women in like our 13 year old psyche and we're just stuck surrounded by like real kids and we're just, I know. So weird for anyone.

[B]

If listening to this are watching and you haven't seen the show, you need to watch the show. But essentially you as adults are playing 13 year olds. Your castmates are much younger. So real 13 year olds which just. And you both, you and your co star, co creator both age yourselves down and like braces and hair and stuff.

[A]

No one mentions the hair always like the added hair. We added hair to our eyebrows, we add to our like it's pre plucked.

[B]

It's insane.

[A]

Thank you for appreciating that.

[B]

The details is amazing in that whole thing. But you know, the conceit of the show was you acting against kids. Deeply unusual thing to pitch and really unusual thing to make.

[A]

That's very.

[B]

If you didn't know this already, especially

[C]

when there's like love interest storylines too with kids.

[A]

Well, we were faced early on with that of just like coming up with it and then being like, let's start talking about in meetings, you know, in

[B]

la, see how this goes out.

[A]

Yeah, this is going to go great. And people were like that's illegal. Like you can't do that, you know, just off the bat. And we were like, no, no, there's a way. But it forced us quick to have a pitch for the directing of it which was like we are doing these like Ren and Stimpy, you know, extreme close ups where you know, if you're making out, having your first kiss, it's really close and then you're bringing in your partner and you've ruined your real life partner, you're ruining your sex life

[B]

and sort of the shared childhood things you, you sort of came up with together, was that kind of it feel universal? What you were playing with.

[A]

We were so psychotic about the details that it was natural for us to debate and analyze like what was happening in LA versus my town. Because Maya grew up, you know, she went to Crossroads middle School. Private middle school in la.

[B]

Like it's snooty. Is like a snooty school.

[A]

Yeah. And just like she was like, you know, everybody had Louis Vuitton and. Or Prada and I didn't really know what that was.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

But it was interesting to have those sort of discussions about like socioeconomic class stuff and culture and still come back to the same, you know, swimming up stream and just trying to survive and needing a best friend to survive the everyday things. But like, yeah, the details were debated constantly. Where we were like, no, it's a nano pet, it's not a giga pet or whatever the fuck.

[C]

What was the most like earth shattering thing that you thought was universal? That Maya was like, no, that's not.

[A]

That's a really good question.

[C]

That's what David's finding out constantly on this show.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Different worldview.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Upbringing, everything.

[A]

One of them was like. And it. Most of the writers weren't comfortable in the room just admitting every secret that they had. But Maya and I would. Yeah. Right. We probably. Yeah. I feel like we could have gotten sued. We're like, but when did you begin masturbating?

[B]

Yeah, tell us.

[A]

She kept asking me and I was. But like Maya, she's been open about this and it was like. Was in high school, I think when she began. And I like didn't. I don't think I had an orgasm, certainly not from myself until I was like 28 or something like that. And so like sexuality stuff was really interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Which is the true. But that's the case when you're kid that everyone is doing everything at such different times and all trying to like be the cool one and let be the normal one.

[A]

There was a rumor that went around about me when I was 13 and I had the nickname Icebox, which unfortunately was brilliant. And it was that I masturbated with an ice cube. And really what had happened. It took me decades to admit what really happened.

[B]

What happened?

[A]

I was playing Truth or Dare in fourth grade and I dared my neighbors to put an ice cube in their underpants. But like totally innocent.

[B]

Freakin.

[C]

Yeah. Not sexual.

[A]

But that got twisted and it came up two years later and an eighth grader asked me, or I guess many years later I was in seventh grade and she saw me in the hallway and was like, I heard you masturbated with an ice cube. And I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[B]

Just objectively. Very funny, very funny.

[A]

And then some fucking asshole, brilliant asshole came, came up with Icebox. And it never went away. Like, through college, people would text me late night, like, what are you doing, Icebox? And I was so sensitive. It was terrible and so funny. And then Maya, on the other hand, had the. And I wasn't, like. I wasn't so not connected to that side of myself, just to be clear.

[B]

I wasn't just.

[A]

And then on the other hand, there was, like, the inverse where Maya was, you know, feeling shame about her connection with her sexuality, which she obviously shouldn't. And so there was a lot of, like, exploring the slut shaming, and there was no way of doing it right. You know what I mean? Whether you were, like, a prude or whatever. A slut.

[B]

The thing that I often think about with the show is how you perfectly captured those early kind of forays into the Internet and what that was like. And I think, obviously the Internet is everywhere now and everyone's online, but so it was at a different time where everything wasn't online and you were sort of figuring that out. Was it, you know, what are you gonna put on your MySpace and all that stuff? That must have been fun to remember. It was.

[A]

I feel so sad. Like, I truly get emotional when I think about it, because it was such a. It was just enough, you know, like, there are times now where I'm like, I need some sort of something I can put on my computer that makes everything slow again and take a really long time to load or whatever, but it was really fun. The AIM episode, I was really obsessed with, and, yeah, I like that it's something that kids now could look at and be like, you know, it's like, probably a horse and buggy to them.

[C]

I do think our generation got lucky that we got to explore that. And it is not as permanent as things are now in that, like, our away messages and AIM screen names and

[B]

all that shit was so.

[C]

Profiles and, like, weird inside jokes he'd put on them.

[B]

Yeah. Picking the song that would go with your profile, all that stuff. And it was fun transitioning from no Internet to living in that world with Internet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So good.

[A]

So good. I know the door opening, that feeling, you know, the door shutting like that. Those sounds. So what did you guys have?

[B]

That was in New Zealand, Was it?

[A]

It wasn't aol.

[B]

We got the Internet. I remember getting the Internet when I was probably 15 or 16 was dial up. So it was like a 33.6k modem. Was that right? I think we dial up and we went. We didn't have America Online.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So we had our. This is so boring. Our ISP Internet service provider was Extra E, X T. Oh, it did cost extra.

[A]

That's what it was called.

[B]

Called Extra.

[C]

And when you logged in cost extra, too, though.

[B]

It cost a lot. So when you logged in, you. You arrived at X World. And I still remember it. It's these two, like. It's like these crossroads that made an X. And like, if you clicked on that building, you'd get to, like, your search engine. And if you clicked on that building, you get to the encyclopedia building. There's like a rendered world. X World was like an image and it would load up and it was so fucking exciting. So remember X World being really cool. It was $5 an hour. So that was insane because you quickly racked up a lot of money on the phone line. And the only other thing I really remember is, like, those early days of chatting online where you'd go asl to people, age, sex, location. Anyway, this is just my. You know, we had.

[A]

I could talk about this all day.

[C]

It's really good stuff.

[B]

Okay, so just how much of that in. In the show was. It was all drawn from your own.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Place. Right.

[A]

Yeah. Most of the events are real.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or. And are some sort of mashup of me and Maya's lives for the most part.

[B]

So when you. When you got into writing this book about your life, like, that was going even deeper into the personal. Or was like. Did it feel like Pen15 was, like, a little dry run for that?

[A]

I do think it was a dry run, but the. It's, you know, the semi in front of semi autobiographical. It does, like, a lot of work where you get to hide behind that, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I got the question a lot in press. Stuff of, like, oh, you know, were your parents really. Because there's the whole storyline of, like, them getting divorced and splitting the house in half for two years and. And the fighting. Then we, like, did an episode where there's, like, you know, it's like a Wiccan episode, but they're fighting a lot. And I try to do a love spell, as one does on them, so.

[C]

Good.

[B]

Rosabelle also did a lot of love spells in her childhood. That was a thing. Yeah. Love spells were happening and, like, any kind of witchy spells.

[A]

Yeah. And if you.

[B]

Zealand.

[A]

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. I did a lot of like. In reality, I was raised more like an only child. I have a half brother that's 11 years older and grew up separately. So a lot of the pretend wasn't with Maya. It was like by myself in the woods doing like weird potions. I'm fine. That's why the title of my book is the Sane One. Yes, I'll do.

[B]

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[B]

I do. They're two of my favorite things. And my favorite things, I mean things

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[B]

Support for Flightless Bird comes from Shopify. Now when we started Fight this Bird, there were so many things to sort out from how we're going to structure the show, how we're going to shoot it, what we're going to do, the logo. Rob did a lot of that stuff, but it was still super overwhelming and every day seemed to introduce a new decision that needed an answer. My point is that basically when you're Starting off with something new. It seems like your to do list keeps growing every day with new things and it can really overrun your life.

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[C]

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[A]

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[B]

The road to the NBA Finals ends here, with star guard setting the tone.

[C]

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[B]

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[A]

What we out with those?

[C]

Those.

[A]

The questions about my parents may be like, they're crazy, right? Or like, is that how it really was? And I was like, that's the tip of that iceberg. That was like the TV comedy version of it. And they're very funny people. Like my dad is, was the very, you know, fast witted, dark sense of humor. But he was also like a human resource manager. Got fired all the time because you can't be.

[C]

That was my dad's job as well.

[A]

Stop. Did he. Was he keeping his jobs all right,

[C]

or he had new jobs all the time? Like, I think they just move around a lot.

[A]

Okay, maybe I'm jumping to conclusions. I need to rewrite my Memoir.

[C]

He was a bus driver in Chicago and then became human resources manager and worked at, like, eight companies doing that.

[A]

Was he quite an appropriate person, if you don't mind me asking?

[C]

He. He was. He's very wholesome and appropriate. He was almost a priest and then wanted to start a family and left seminary school to do that.

[B]

Yeah. Rob's dad is very pure, and I

[C]

think he's only ever been with my mom.

[A]

Oh, my God bless him. My face went down, but it was respect that was happening inside. Okay, well, maybe. Maybe I need to do some rewrites. I just figured after looking back that, yeah, he got fired kind of a lot, my dad. But maybe human resources is just a hard.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's a hard job to keep for a long time. Wow.

[B]

Okay, so that's accurate that, like, from the show, your parents splitting, very different life that you had post that point?

[A]

That is definitely accurate. And I think there was just, like, sort of these more intense storylines below that I was going through when we were pitching Pen 15 and when I moved to LA with my dad. And so it, you know, in a way, it was nice and pen to, like, take the easier things to talk about and put them in there. And then I always had this sort of inkling that I would want to write more truthfully about sort of the other stuff over time.

[C]

You had a falling out with your dad when he moved to la?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. He had been, like, my best friend when I was a kid, and sort of, in my mind, my mom was the problem. And I was like, he's, you know, he was like the cool dad and the funny dad, and. And now in retrospect, I know it's not that uncommon for the mom to be, you know, sort of vilified. So I did that. And then in my. It was like a slow burn, you know, of, like, different sort of unsettling events. Until the estrangement, it wasn't one thing. And that sort of fucked with me as time went on of like, you know, friends kind of asking what happened, and not being able to say a certain thing clearly made me feel like shame around, you know, being too sensitive or, like, was it justified or whatever. And, yeah, that was about five years. And then we happened to start to kind of heal things. And soon after that, he was given one to five years. He got sick. Ended up being two months. And then I was his caregiver for those two months. So it was a dramatic. It was a dramatic relationship, but very, like, transformational and very valued.

[B]

It's Incredible. You started to heal that relationship before you. Before that sickness kicked in. That's kind of insane.

[A]

It is insane. It felt very fateful in that he was. The day he had waited till after the Emmys, we had unexpectedly been nominated for an Emmy and he was like, didn't tell me until the morning after. And I was driving to the writer's room and he's, you know, on the phone and told me there was like a spot on his lung and he had had cancer several times in my life, so. But it was very slow moving and. And then I went that weekend to see him in Florida, where I hadn't been in a long time, and he ended up going to the ICU that night and he made some joke of like. That actually wasn't a joke, that was real, was like, if you weren't here, the only reason I woke you up to call 911 is because I didn't want to ruin your pool vacation and find, you know, you find me dead or whatever. So there was like that continuous feeling over and over of, you know, if we weren't there that night, like it could have been, you know, I hadn't seen my dad in a very long time, you know, and then he would have been gone.

[C]

You were shooting season two when that all was happening.

[A]

Yeah, we were just about to. We were at the very end of the PEN15 writers room.

[C]

Was it therapeutic to like you're playing a 13 year old version of yourself, playing and reliving your relationship with your dad?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And kind of seeing it in a way you probably couldn't at that time.

[A]

Yeah, it felt like quite psychotic because I'd be with my dad and in this very like intimate, obviously strange moment and then flying back and with my TV dad, who I had been psychotic about being like the same corduroys, the same Sebring convertible. And we're doing this scene to the best of my memory, you know, word for word of, like, what happened when he moved out of our family house, you know, after splitting the house for two years into his own apartment. And he had gotten this like black Sebring convertible and my mom still had like a shitty Toyota Corolla and he was sort of like hoarding the money a little bit, I think, in retrospect. And so like we're going through these scenes was very hard. Like, I joke that it's like the most expensive therapy though, that you could do to your point of like, you know, I feel like it's a version of, of. Of like in my 20s. My therapist being. Yeah, exactly. Being like, imagine yourself as a little girl and you're giving yourself a hug as an adult.

[C]

Bring this whole set in.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

It's almost doing, like, a Nathan Fielder where, like, you're building this world around it to, like, replay totally.

[A]

Your trauma was very strange. And then the strangest being, like, after he passed away and having to, like, go do these scenes with my TV dad was very strange.

[B]

Still healing or just more like really fucking weird.

[A]

It was like a ghost. Like, it was like. It was just, you know, it was just. It was strange after all these years of just being so hardcore about the memories being exact and then kind of suffering within that, to be honest, at first, you know, and editing those scenes, then while, you know, I was grieving and being bittersweet of both being able to, like, be with him. And I remember Taylor Nichols played my dad, and I love him so much, and he didn't know everything going on with my father. And we were doing a scene in, like, in the Sebring convertible, and I just burst out crying in the middle of the scene, and he was confused, and I of. We stopped, and I was like, my dad, you know, just passed, and he just gave me a really long hug. And, you know, it was. It was otherworldly. Like, the whole. You know, the whole pen 15 was just otherworldly doing that. It was strange.

[C]

The timing. The timing of that seems special, too, to be able to have that healing process before he was gone. But. Yeah, as he was leaving.

[A]

Yeah, but it's really funny. We started that with going, it's a good book. But it. Yeah, I mean, what wouldn't have to be? But I do think it is.

[B]

What was the thought in your head where it's like, I want to write this book? What was the intent behind that?

[A]

Primarily, I think Pen15 had assured me that my point of view, as serious as it can sound, sometimes is funny in a way that I think is funny, because it's been a lot of my life of feeling like I'm the only one laughing in the. The theater at the wrong time. So it's kind of a surprise to feel otherwise. And there were a lot of people, you know, in a way that I didn't expect to be like, oh, that happened to me, too. That happened to me, too. And I have found a lot of, you know, healing and reassurance in other people's memoirs, and especially when they're funny, especially when they're tragic and funny together, something about that is a relief.

[B]

I mean, Tragedy is very funny.

[A]

I think.

[B]

So. Like, there's inherent humor in that. Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Something that obviously you talk about in the book, but this. The idea of splitting the households.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can we talk about that a little bit? And what that was like? Because my parents are the most stable, kind of, like, most boring parents you can imagine. Can you talk me and Rob through what it was like to have that split kind of where both your parents kind of, like, in the same house?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But living sort of separate lives.

[A]

Yeah, try. It had been, like, very loud for most of my life. Their fights were usually at night. And my dad would leave, and my mom would cry, and I'd comfort her, and it was, like, very dramatic. And then. Yeah, when I was about 13 or 14, they sat me down and told me they were getting a divorce. And I remember my mom doing most of the talking and me going like, oh, but are you getting separated first? And my dad, like, going, like, nodding his head yes. And then my mom going, no, it's divorce.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

And my dad just stopping and, like, looking down and, like, a feeling of, like, him kind of going away, to be honest. And then it was this weird limbo of being, like, I was in a very Catholic town at this point also, so there was not a lot of divorce around. And I didn't know how it was gonna supposed, you know, so I'm like, is someone like, what's happening?

[B]

Carrot tree?

[A]

And so my dad just kind of taking the downstairs bedroom. That was four guests before. And in some ways, it was a little bit of a relief because he would sleep on the couch so much. So it was like, it's always sort of aware if the sheets were still on the couch, if a friend was coming over and tucking them away. And so there was something more honest, I think, that was a relief about what was happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But also, if I'm being honest, it was like, some nights, like, he'd go up the stairs and sleep in Mom's room sometimes. So it still was fucking weird for a long time. I mean, the whole thing's weird.

[B]

You know, in those moments, you're probably going, all right, maybe back together again. Maybe this will settle.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

It also feels very American, pretending to be this happy, normal family. And did everyone know they were divorced or.

[A]

No? No.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's so weird.

[C]

So you probably thought it was somewhat normal. Cause you didn't know anything else.

[A]

Yeah. And there was this sort of narrative that started to emerge of, like, them going to court and both wanting the house and that it would be like one like that they couldn't afford to move out and have an additional space. But also that it would look bad to the judge that one of them was, like, abandoning me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I also remember. I also remember this is so crazy. We never went on vacation. Like, we always. We went camping in Vermont. That was in the summer. That was awesome. But that was vacation. Or we went to my mom's parents condo in Florida in the retirement community and just, like, swam. And when my dad and mom divorced, when they were splitting the house, he decides he gets the Sebring convertible that we've been talking about. And then he, like, gets us a cruise to the Palms.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And so.

[C]

With your mom, too?

[A]

No.

[C]

No.

[A]

Okay. So I remember it's so sad. Like, it's like half crying, half laughing, mostly laughing. So I remember, like, being so excited because, like. And there's a floating casino. So my dad, you know, I didn't even think of that. But my. That was definitely part of it. And my mom is not the cruise type. She was like, doing Reiki and she's like, whatever. And. Yeah. And so I just remember coming out of my bedroom, like, my bags packed and saying goodbye, and the poor woman had to be like, have a good time. It's snowing. It's fucking Massachusetts. Like, it's cold. And. And yeah, that's just a snapshot. And that is around the time when, like, they were waiting for the judge to come back with a decision about the house. So my dad and I were doing a lot of talking about who he referred to as the female judge.

[B]

Jesus. Seems a lot, isn't it?

[A]

Human resource manager. It's a problem.

[B]

Maybe it matters. Guessing it didn't.

[A]

He didn't get the house. Let's say that it went to the woman as he suspected it would.

[C]

That's how he addressed her.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So that's the snapshot. And then we came back and pretty cool vacation. It was great. It was great. I got a horrific sunburn because my mom wasn't there to tell me to put on sunscreen.

[B]

Apart from the weirdness of that divorce, like, what did you like about being like an American kid? Like, what, what jumped out at you back then? Cruise. Obviously the Internet was pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah. I loved aim. There was a lot of, like, posing to be a kid. That fit in. Like the pen 15 version of me is real, but it was more like the elementary school version. And then by middle school I had, like, figured out how to pretend more. So it wasn't a very peaceful, like, I really prefer being an adult to being a kid.

[B]

Yeah, being an adult can be pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah, I liked going to Unitarian Church when I was little.

[C]

What's that?

[A]

It's like a hippie branch of Christianity.

[B]

Lots of clapping.

[A]

No, no clapping. A lot of candles.

[B]

No, none of that.

[A]

Very non denominational. God is spirit in eighth. Seventh grade. Eighth grade. I'm going to different congregations of different religions. Temple.

[B]

Oh, sounds great.

[A]

And learning about different religions and then coming back at the end of the two years of doing that and saying to the congregation what we believe. And some people were like, I don't believe in God. And I was like, God's a woman. People were like, yes, God is a woman.

[C]

You know that's when you and your dad stopped talking.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Because he was like, yeah, probably is. That's why she fucked me.

[B]

No, I'm just like curious. Like when you write, like, did you like put aside hours to get the job done?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was it just like when it grabbed you, you would just like write?

[A]

I. I was always writing out of terror. Like basically I was acting in between things. So whenever I wasn't in something and I was traveling a lot during those years for whatever reason. And so I would have a couple months where I was like, you know, just sort of trying to catch up. And it would usually be, you know, before my daughter got up, trying to start at 4 or 5am and that was also the time that I wouldn't look at the home around me. Cause usually once I get distracted with laundry or get distracted by something, then the days. And then at 3pm I'm like, oh, fuck yeah.

[B]

Damn it.

[A]

Yeah. So I just have to start really early and then not stop.

[C]

I do love a whiteboard also. David's made fun of my whiteboard.

[A]

Really? What do you do on the whiteboard?

[B]

I have one there.

[C]

I've got two by my desk on the other room.

[B]

He's got whiteboards everywhere.

[C]

Yeah, we just, just.

[B]

Yeah, If I'm sort of having a normal conversation, he gets up and he. These whiteboard markers appear out of nowhere and suddenly all different colors. Writing it up there. And it's like, what do you do? What do you do without. Then you take a photo of it and.

[C]

Yeah, I have photos of whiteboards.

[B]

Such a weird. Such a weird thing to do.

[A]

Is that because it will be gone if you don't write it for me. That's what it is.

[C]

I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You like see things out in front.

[C]

Yeah, and I like to cross things off too.

[B]

Yeah. You like different colors.

[C]

Feel very accomplished when I get through a full list of a whiteboard.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't have whiteboards in New Zealand. We only have blackboards. Whiteboards. Haven't invented it there. Yeah. And sure, that's what we have.

[A]

What were you guys like in your middle schools?

[B]

I was homeschooled till I was 11.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then I went to school and I found it shocking because suddenly kids everywhere and some of them were mean. And I remember Mrs. Denny, my art teacher, she gave me this advice that's always stuck. And she said if you did something wrong and you apologized, she'd say if you were sorry, you wouldn't have done that in the first place. And it's never.

[C]

Ida Mansi just said, don't be sorry, be correct. And that stuck with me too. Whoa.

[B]

Yeah. So that was me homeschooled and then. And then lots of kids at a private Christian School and Mrs. Denny telling me that.

[A]

Was that a shock?

[B]

Oh, it's horrific. Yeah. I'd cry a lot. I was. I just figured out what I was all about. It was like, it's scary being at school. My other kids are scary. Teachers are scary.

[A]

I think so my theory is that everyone in middle school, if this didn't come through, is like, you know, and like, feels like an outsider. No matter how in you are. It's just kind of that freaky moment between kid and teen dumb. When your body is. Is doing very bizarre things and you're trying to. Yeah. Like pose and mask. Everybody is, I think, which is kind of a relief.

[B]

I'm trying to figure out whether it's harder for kids today. Like school was crazy. You're just like. Everything's like a panic. You're just trying to fit in. I assume it's harder today, but maybe it's just hard. No matter what age you are. When you're like throwing in to like into all these social situations, it's hard no matter what.

[C]

Seeing what Calvin. I've got a nine year old and a four year old and yeah, he's going through the same shit. It seems like.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's almost comforting to think that it's not worse. Partly why I love Talking about your 2000 and aim is just like or X. By the way, I got this image of. I remember my dad saying that a family friend was investing in an online mall and I pictured like a Clueless. Like, you know the movie Clueless? Where like a digital mall where you would like walk the halls and like your avatar would like Go in a mall. But it's close to X with the streets and the building.

[B]

It is. Yeah.

[A]

I was in the wrong country. I've always been in the wrong country.

[B]

When will you let your kid watch pen? 15. How old will they be till they can see you in there?

[C]

How old is your daughter?

[A]

Five.

[C]

Five, Okay.

[A]

I don't know. I mean, the show is now on Tik Tok and so. Yes. And mostly I get stopped by teenagers. People just.

[B]

So wait, is it chopped up into like a million bits?

[A]

They don't know it's a television show.

[B]

Oh, that's so funny.

[A]

And it's like, I didn't know. And then all of a sudden I was like, why are 12 year olds stopping me and going, you might have to just cut this by. But going like, you're the one that calls your mama cunt. And I'm like, oh, yeah. By the way, I immediately revert to being 12 in real life, around a 12 year old.

[C]

So I'm like school, 12 year olds talking to me.

[A]

Yeah, like, that is. I mean, don't say that.

[C]

Finally.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, no, see, that's fascinating. It's got the second life by being chopped up into bits and thrown around on that network. It's crazy. It's wild.

[A]

Oh, it is wild. There's like sadcore, which is like Maya's, you know, all the sad moments from the whole season and Anacore, Anna. Sadcore, I think that's what it's called. But the neat thing, and back to the point of like, is it harder the same for kids? Is Ben reaching that demographic, but sort of through TikTok and kids being like, you know, in real time, like, oh my God, I can't believe she went through this. I thought I was. I'm going through this right now. I feel like such a psycho. Like, that's neat. But it's also. It is an R rated show.

[B]

Yeah. But it's all. It's the same problems though. And that's cool. And like, if kids are getting like, like being like, I'm not alone in this. Yeah, that's kind of great.

[A]

The Internet scares me for kids. I know that's a crazy thing to say.

[B]

You know what?

[A]

But think about the algorithms.

[C]

But there's also like a. You don't want them to fall behind because I have that with my son too. Of like, you need to be able to use text. That's what everything's going to be. And if we're the one family that's not letting you use Claude.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Then you're not gonna get a job.

[A]

But won't Claude be doing the tech job?

[C]

I mean, yeah, probably, but even just seeing how our four year old can use the iPad and he's doing like puzzles and stuff and.

[A]

Wow. I know.

[B]

Claude, this podcast.

[C]

We just won Person of the Year.

[B]

We just won. I got really excited. We won a Webby award for this podcast. And I was like, yeah, we've won a Webby. And I look at the other winners. Supreme winner. They've given it to Claude. Person of the Year. That instantly makes, like, all the categories come into some sort of dispute.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Timothy Charmelay won for like some cash app ad he did. And I'm like, what is this? What is this award system?

[A]

Wow. Wait, how does that work, being Claude and getting person of the Year?

[B]

They're just trying to get ahead of the game, I guess, on.

[A]

On the Pulse.

[B]

On the Pulse in some way or something. I don't know. It's getting weird out there.

[A]

It's getting really weird.

[B]

What are you most excited about in America this year? Besides your book coming out?

[A]

I mean, in general, I love traveling carnivals.

[B]

Do you really?

[A]

Well, yeah, they scare me a little bit.

[B]

That's deeply American.

[A]

That's.

[B]

Are you into them?

[A]

Yeah. I mean, they're a little like, you know, unnerving because you read about, you know, growing up reading the. My mom was a nurse reading newspaper articles about, like the twirlathon that, like just spun off into the parking lot,

[C]

scalped a 10 year old.

[A]

So not that, but such a magical moment. Like those summers when the carnival would come and there'd be the lights and the fried dough and the kids all hanging out and winning the stuffed animals and it was an equalizer.

[B]

So that was like. That you'd do that when you were a kid?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you still go now?

[A]

No, but I want to this year. Like, I passed one on the drive and I saw one and I was like, I need to do this. But I have an inkling that it's not going to feel good.

[C]

Last year I took my. I. I took Calvin to the one in Los Feliz and it was terrible.

[A]

What made it terrible?

[C]

I want to speak up a couple times.

[B]

I went to that a couple of days ago.

[C]

Yeah, we went to that one church. Church parking lot, right?

[B]

Yeah. Catholic school. Raising money, I think. And it was three days. I. So I went on the Friday with a friend who has kids. I went back on the Sunday. Just me.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

I loved it.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Really? They had really good hot dogs.

[C]

Calvin kept doing the swirly one. He did it, like, four times. And then the last time he got off, he had eaten, like, funnel cake or hot dogs. And that just goes over, like, dizzy to the garbage and puke all over.

[B]

You know, the ride. A little mini roller coaster that looks like it's definitely about to all come undone. Yeah. The American car. I'm a fan, too.

[C]

Well, you got to go down to the Orange county, like, fairgrounds.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

That's. I think, one that'll live up to the nostalgia of it. I don't. The church parking lot's not going to do it.

[A]

No.

[B]

When is it sort of related to, like, the traveling circus? Because I feel like that was a big thing in America as well, where you go and see, like, a hippo on a trampoline.

[A]

We didn't do. I didn't much.

[B]

Which are bad, obviously.

[A]

Bad we don't like.

[B]

But I feel that was, like, a big thing as well. But maybe.

[A]

Yeah. Barnum and Bailey, because my parents were kind of hippies. I was always, like, kind of out of the. Out of the loop, shall we say? I didn't. I. You know, we were listening to, like, Rock Mon and Off, but they were, like, testing me of, like, what the Smashing Pumpkins were. And I was like, that's something you do on Halloween, you know, so sad.

[B]

That's just unique.

[A]

So I really think you. So, I mean. Yeah. I can't say I was a Girl Scout. I really like Girl Scout cookies.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

I look forward to that.

[C]

I just bought way too many.

[A]

Oh, really? What flavor are you?

[C]

I. Thin mints.

[A]

Thin mints is mine.

[C]

And then the shortbread ones are second.

[A]

Wow. That's very, like, mature shortbread cookies.

[B]

You come quickly, don't you?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, we got some in the freezer.

[B]

Do we? Yeah, yeah. I bought a few now, and they're pretty delicious. But it's so elaborate, like, how some of the kids sell them and, like, their parents are out there as well. Like. Like, there's an art to it, obviously.

[C]

Did you have Indian princesses in New England?

[A]

No.

[B]

Sounds not.

[A]

Yeah, that's a problem.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I worried about that Indian Guides instead of Boy Scouts.

[B]

Really? That was a thing.

[C]

There's a Tim Allen and Jonathan Taylor Thomas movie about it.

[A]

There is.

[B]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yes, that was a thing. It's definitely appropriate. No, that's real. I was in the Comanche tribe.

[B]

Oh. Oh, God.

[C]

We had camp outs and really, there was a chief.

[B]

That was a thing in a headdress.

[A]

Was there any acknowledgment of the, you know, a different culture influencing.

[C]

You were like, learning,

[B]

but not in the. Yeah, not in a great.

[C]

I was also, like eight. But you do. It was like father son bonding and you do little outings. And I would always. There'd be contests to make the patches for it that you'd, like, draw. And I would always win those.

[B]

That's cute.

[C]

You'd add them to your vest.

[B]

What do Girl Guides do? I only know them from the biscuits you earn.

[A]

I haven't thought about the details of this in so long. You earn badges by completing tasks usually of others.

[B]

All right. Or.

[A]

Yeah, actually. Yeah. How to tie a knot. That's a good one. Like a boat knot or something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or in. So you're saying in service of others, you'd go and do nice things for other people.

[A]

Yeah, like. Or like a music one. Or your troop leader would sort of like, organize outings to then get a certain badge.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Was it like Boy Scouts similar to Indian guys?

[B]

Yeah. Is it like boy. I think about. Boy Scouts are like, camping. Going camping in the woods. Is that what Girl Scouts do as well?

[A]

Yeah, we did that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We did that. We did. There was, like, a lot of seeing at elderly homes.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Oh, yeah. And my mom worked at elderly home. In elderly homes. So I, like, grew up a lot being around Harold and whoever. And I'd be like, they're my best friend. Then she'd be like, they're gone.

[B]

Oh, that's so fucking intense.

[A]

I know. But it was also awesome. I mean, elderly homes are curious about New Zealand. In the States are quite problematic, I would say, in general. Hard to find ones that. That, you know, we're aging isn't. And.

[B]

And we're shoved aside.

[A]

Yeah, you're just right. Is that the same.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's like. I think it's maybe a bit worse in America, like in. A bit more monetized. But certainly. Yeah. The same culture in New Zealand of old people. We don't want to deal with you

[A]

often a reminder of our mortality. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, they'd be so lucky to have you. This, like, little kid running around smiling and laughing.

[A]

And they had amazing stories. The craziest story is that you're like. Those stories just go away when you leave for the most part. I mean, now, I guess, with our generation. Not because we're leaving thousands of hours. Documentation of everything. Today I ate some ham. I'm gonna eat it again.

[C]

It won't be usable format in 30 years though.

[B]

Yeah. The Lotus. Yeah.

[C]

All your Sidekick photos.

[A]

And wait, wait, I've been wondering this. What do you mean it's. We're not gonna be able to access vhs? No, no, it's great. I've been really stressed.

[B]

Yeah. Like I. I think of like all my. That I put on Facebook. Like when Facebook dies, that'll all be gone. I try. I have so many photos that I really like on my Facebook because I uploaded a lot there. Back in the day. I tried to do that thing where you download all your data and you just have it sitting there. But it's. And then I was going to delete my Facebook.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But the download is so hectic and chaotic. It's not like you can just download

[A]

your photo album, which they do on purpose, I'm sure. Terrific Mark.

[B]

But to your point, it's like, like so much of my is on Facebook. Like once Facebook dies, all that history is going to be gone.

[C]

I've got containers of DVDs that I don't have a DVD player anymore. I've got like burn DVDs with data from computers that I've got zip disks. I don't have a, a CD ROM drive. I can access any of that stuff anymore.

[B]

So our point is you don't need to worry about this.

[A]

All the information, like trash in a dump. That's what I picture when I think of all of the content. Wait, so that's not an. That's not. That's. I'm so naive. Like the idea. Yeah.

[C]

That.

[A]

That isn't gonna. So that's not gonna be a thing, you think? Of course it will. No, I don't understand.

[B]

I think like the, the l people that you saw in that old folks home.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That don't have any stories that have been left around. It's essentially going to be the same for us because all that stuff we're leaving won't be readable or the photos

[C]

will be low res because it's not like 2000K.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

When you're looking at like old. That's how you look really photos now. Like that's not going to be the type of photos.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm half worried and I'm half deeply reassured.

[B]

Yeah. It's okay. Like we want some of that stuff to go, you know, we don't want all that to be around. Get rid of it.

[A]

I'm trying to promote my book, obviously. And I better be gone. Trying. That'll be gone. Thank God. Because it's humiliating also. Like I've been trying to like Influence. Because I'm like talking. I've never talked to the camera in my life unless I'm like, you know, a character or something. I'm like, this is my book. This is. And I feel like such a fraud. And I also feel guilty because I just have this feeling of adding to this content overload where I'm like, oh, this is like. This is like plastic and it's never gonna come decompose. But I'm wrong. It is.

[B]

But look, we want your stuff.

[C]

Yeah. There'll be so much stuff.

[B]

No, we do. There's a reason got. You know, Rome and I are both massive fans. We want the book. We want you talking about the book on TikTok.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We want the kids chopping up P15 and putting it on TikTok so more people can find it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They're here for it all.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, thanks.

[C]

Will you quickly tell. We did a trading card episode a while ago. You've got a good trading card story.

[A]

I actually do. Okay. So my brother, 11 years older, was really into sports. He wasn't around a lot. He lived at his dad's. He to me, was the coolest person on earth. And I knew nothing about sports. And he gave me a rookie Larry Bird card. As I swallow and I felt. I remember feeling really special. Such a good question. So most people have these stories about trading cards.

[B]

A lot of people do.

[C]

I do. I have a very. It's such an American voice on. They'll tell after.

[A]

Okay. I'm so excited. And I was in a multi age class in fourth in first grade. It was first, second and third graders. And I brought in. I mean I probably had like four cards, but I. I got the Trapper Keeper and the laminated space for cards. I think Jamie gave them to me. My. My brother and some little. Asked me if I wanted to trade the 1 Larry Bird rookie card for 4x men cards. And I was like, absolutely. So I did.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Yeah. And they were colorful and they were like this.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

And you know, Larry Bird was just like this. And they were. They had powers and it drew me right in. That kid knew what he was doing. And at dinner, I remember I felt. Felt panicked afterwards and something felt wrong. Something felt wrong. I knew and I told my 90s,

[C]

like Larry Bird was not a rookie at the time. It was known that he's.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. But it was a rookie Larry Bird card.

[C]

Yeah. Which makes it even more valuable.

[A]

But known my brother, like kind of to a. Would one say problematic. I mean, maybe that's just me projecting. Like, he never gets upset about anything. And he. I remember how disappointed in me he was. And I trust him to go to the third grader and, like, call him out and say that it was not a fair trade. And he did not budge. He never gave it back. And I think about it probably once every four months.

[B]

Oh, that sucks.

[A]

It's okay.

[B]

We should find that kid. Yeah, kill him and get your card back.

[C]

Or just find the card. I had a similar story for the card. My dad bought this, like, my gold Michael Jordan box set from the card shop when it was in the 90s. And I remember it being a really big deal. He was buying it as, like, an investment for us and wouldn't let us open it.

[A]

How much was it?

[C]

I think it was only, like $40, but it seemed like a lot at that time.

[B]

It looked cool.

[C]

I thought we lost it. And I thought about it often of, like, where's that box of. Of Michael Jordan cards? And then we did our trading card episode, and I brought it up and I asked my dad, and he was like, oh, I still have it in a safety deposit box that we're keeping. Still got it, Looked it up. It's only worth, like, $200 still.

[B]

It's gone up a little bit.

[C]

It's gone up a little bit, but

[B]

you're imagining, like, $15,000 or something. Yeah.

[A]

If it was, would you sell it? What would you do if he had. If you had discovered, yeah, this is 15,000 easy. Is the family keeping it? Are they selling it?

[C]

Well, I asked if I could have it, and he said, no, it's still an investment.

[B]

It might go up more interesting.

[C]

He said I could give him 250 for it.

[A]

What about Beanie Babies?

[C]

We had Beanie Babies.

[A]

Do you still have them any? Did you?

[B]

I didn't have them.

[C]

You know about Beanie Babies?

[B]

I watched the documentary on Netflix. I think. Yeah, I didn't. You might have had them in New Zealand. I was unaware of them.

[C]

My sister collected them. She had had a huge bin under her bed. And like, her and my mom, they go to Jan's Gifts little store episode so funny in the little strip mall, and they would buy all the new Beanie Babies.

[A]

It's interesting because there is, like, in the trading cards and the Beanie Babies, there is this, like, entrepreneurial thing that it's like getting in touch with with kids.

[C]

It's an investment.

[A]

What is that now?

[B]

I mean, I want to know what that kid that has that Larry card, if he, like, kept Focusing on that and is now like. Like, worth millions, you know, just from that brain that he had back then.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

Might have just, like, gone from the card. You just mean just in general, that attitude.

[A]

I mean, I'd love to know where he. Where he is. I moved, so I moved soon after from Vermont.

[B]

I want to find this idea. Would, you know, would he be in, like, old high school yearbooks and stuff?

[C]

He listens to the show.

[B]

We could. I reckon we could find him. That'd be a cool episode. If this spins off and we find that kid and get that card back.

[A]

I need to, like, ask my family friend that grew up in Montpelier, Vermont, and stayed there through. Because he. Sometimes I'll ask him, like, where's this person now? Yeah.

[B]

Can you get that info?

[A]

Yeah. Wow. In my mind, he was so tall and smart, and I was so little and dumb.

[B]

I mean, you were.

[A]

Yeah, I was.

[B]

4x Men cards and you gave up that card. Idiot.

[A]

I know. Can you believe I still think about it? It. I'm just crying. I'm not crying.

[C]

I can. I can believe it.

[A]

Yeah, you can. Well, how much do we think it's worth?

[C]

Not as much now because I don't think trading cards are worth that much anymore.

[A]

It's more like a symbolic spiritual.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Weirdly, Larry Bird came to New Zealand when I was a kid and played, like, a bass. A charity basketball game.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Larry Bird was the first, like, NBA player that I ever saw in the flesh in New Zealand.

[C]

The first flighted bird.

[B]

First flighted bird. I saw Larry.

[A]

Did you meet him?

[B]

No, but I saw him.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

He was, like, over in the.

[C]

Sort of.

[B]

That in the distance. But he seemed cool. Very white. Larry Bird, wasn't he? And small. Was he small?

[C]

No, I don't think he was. I think he was probably over 6 foot.

[B]

Okay. Big thank you for coming in.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

You're so wonderful. You have so many wonderful things.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

So Anna's book is called the Sane One. One Anna Conkle. The same one at your local bookstore, your local online book spot. It's a great read. She's awesome. And I love that show so much. I was trippy having her there because I'm like, oh, my God. I was obsessed with your show. And she's a good writer. She's such a good writer. And allegedly listens to Flightless Bird.

[C]

Allegedly.

[B]

Which was a thrill. Didn't test her on it. When people say they listen to your podcast, you're going to be like, so what's your favorite episode. Episode. See what they say. See if they freeze up.

[C]

Yeah, I'll. I'll ask that sometimes.

[B]

I mean it's not as to do it. It's cruel.

[C]

Not. It's not as a test though as just like a gauge. Well, if it's someone that I feel like is serious about it that has like no reason to say it just because depending on what you listen to. Says a lot about you.

[B]

Completely. And I think she does listen, which is nice.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

She better. She better have not been lying to me.

[C]

Check the Patreon.

[B]

Yeah, she's amazing. I now have to go and find the kid that took her favorite card. That's my mission I'm currently on. I'll probably fail miserably, but I'm gonna have a bit of a poke around.

[C]

We got his full name from her. So yeah. In town.

[B]

I mean look, if you're. If, if he's listening to this flight the spread chat gmail.com, email us and we will instantly solve the mystery. We'd love to have you on the show. Maybe we can trade the cards back again in something like that.

[C]

And if you, if you are listening and you don't reach out, we will find you.

[B]

We will find you and I will turn up at your front door and.

[C]

And your place of work.

[B]

I feel like we covered so many bits of American culture in that.

[C]

Yes, kind of wild, kind of kind of bounce all over which was, I mean the perfect embodiment of what.

[B]

N15 was completely untirily forgotten that I'd seen Larry Bird on a basketball court until I started talking about basketball. Basketball.

[C]

I do have to make a correction, me or you. It's gonna be in the comments as they always are whenever there's a slip up. The movie with Jonathan Taylor Thomas about Indian guides is called man of the House.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And it's with Chevy Chase, not Tim Allen.

[B]

They seem similar characters just in that they're kind of being comedians. Been around for a while. Both seem like not great humans as well. I could see how you kind of get them confused a little bit.

[C]

Well, and I think Tim Allen also did another movie relating to.

[B]

He. He's in a movie where he's in a raft of some kind. I think. I feel like he was in some sort of raft film. I also remember going to watch his Christmas movie at the movies in New Zealand when I was a kid.

[C]

Chris's vacation.

[B]

No, it was. He played Santa.

[C]

I think it was maybe called the Santa Claus.

[B]

That was big at the time.

[C]

It's A pun, too. The Santa Claus.

[B]

What? How so?

[C]

It's a clause.

[B]

Oh, a clause in the. Like a contract where it started for you.

[C]

That went over my head as a kid when that movie came out. And it wasn't until Calvin watched it where I was like, oh, that's. Oh, that's a joke they were making.

[B]

Knowing you, that must have felt so good. Once you clock a pun or terrible

[C]

that I had, like, this movie was in my existence for so long, and I didn't realize what they were doing.

[B]

If you haven't watched Pen15, it's on Hulu. It's worth watching. Just the best show in the world. I love it so much.

[C]

Another correction to make from last week. Squirt. This had taken over.

[B]

Lane, what the hell happened? I was talking about flavoring bourbon in supper clubs in Wisconsin, and we got talked. We're talking about sweet flavors you can put into your cocktail and more bitter flavors. And Squirt came up.

[C]

Yeah, you brought up Squirt. And I think I said it was pretty much just like sprite and 7up. Lemon, lime, which I'm not a soda drinker, and I was wrong.

[B]

Were you, Rob? Were you wrong about something? Unbelievable. The bowl.

[C]

To be fair, the Squirt bottle looks like it should be lemon and live flavored. It's green and yellow.

[B]

You defending yourself?

[C]

Not defending. I'm explaining. Where my mix up. I. I don't. Don't drink. I didn't drink Squirt, so I didn't realize. It does very clearly say grape. Grapefruit flavor.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

On the bottle.

[B]

Rob, I just want to say I forgive you for your error.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

You're forgiven. And I've actually got a present to get, Like a peace offering to give you for your horrific era. It's not Squirt.

[C]

It's not Squirt related, but I got

[B]

this off ebay because I know when I was in Wisconsin, I went into a secondhand store and I showed you some items that you got really intrigued by. And I do love some real monster stuff. And I couldn't get it for you because the store wasn't selling it. So I went on ebay. Bought you a real monsters toy. I'd also like to note that that has the original price on there.

[C]

Yeah. Was that what it cost?

[B]

I just want to say it did cost more than3.9. It costs less.

[C]

Less than 2.99.

[B]

3.99. But it is now a collector's item, and you can now sit that perhaps on your shelf in the lounge.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Natalie will love that staring down.

[C]

I will say this is meaningful character. So the tickus. How you say it?

[B]

I think so. That's how I've always thought about when

[C]

I was in elementary school. Theme of today. When I was in elementary school, I went to an art class and drew both. The guy with the eyeballs.

[B]

That'd be so fun to draw.

[C]

And, like, it ended up on the wall of the elementary school. And that was kind of when I fell in love with art and drawing was.

[B]

Get out.

[C]

Oh, there's these cartoon characters that I can draw.

[B]

Yeah. And they look really cool when I draw them.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, Rob.

[C]

So fitting. Thank you.

[B]

My pleasure. A little bit of feedback coming in. Lindsay. Hi, David. And hi, Rob. Longtime listener here. I found myself outraged about E's story. Yes. So I get so lost in where this is at because it's moved so quickly, but at the moment. So Evely was in California, where you went to visit her in the ICE detention facility. She was there. She was due to meet her lawyer about a week ago now. And the day she was due to meet her lawyer, they put her on a plane and flew her out. She briefly ended up in Texas at one of the. Basically the ICE facility that has the highest number of deaths of all the ICE facilities so far and also the highest number of sexual assaults. So her family was super alarmed when she popped up there. They were even more alarmed when she suddenly dropped off the ICE database entirely and just wasn't present anywhere. Turns out she was being flown from Texas to Arizona, which is where she is now.

[C]

That route makes sense. California to Texas to Arizona, just bouncing around as well.

[B]

But it's very. So she's in. They know where she is now, which is great. She has a lawyer who is basically looking to get her original we charge chucked out because she had terrible legal advice over a decade ago when that happened. That lawyer's now being disbarred. He was like a terrible lawyer. And hopefully after that's happened, ICE will have no excuse to hold her. And again, this is something that she was charged with and has dealt with, but it's what ICE is using to keep her in the system.

[C]

Have they actually said that at this point?

[B]

No, no. They haven't officially charged her with anything. They're just going off what they say, little things. Ice. ICE has indicated that seems insane that

[C]

she is being flown around to different detention centers without even being told what she's being detained for.

[B]

It's bonkers like it is. It is truly bonkers. And it's so complicated because we've had one example already of her lawyer not being able to meet with her. And when I say mood meet, it's literally is like a. A video call from. But she has to be in front of a text tablet or a phone to do that. So they've moved her once already, this hearing, to have this charge from 10 years ago removed. That's going to happen in a Wisconsin court, which is where she's from. But again, to have that hearing, the judge is going to want to talk to Evely and ICE and the local government in Wisconsin. They're not talking. Clearly, ICE is off doing its own thing. So even the idea that she might be able to get that hearing and appear in court in Wisconsin isn't a given. So everything is so up in the air. And the last thing her lawyer has said is basically, she could be in there for at least a year. So, look, she has a good lawyer. Her family is sticking by her side. Her GoFundMe is going really well. So thanks to any listeners who have thrown into that.

[C]

And New Zealand is. It's starting to pick up its coverage of it.

[B]

New Zealand media has gotten into it really intently now. They're pushing our foreign minister, Winston Peters, to actually do something. It sounds like things are slowly happening, like the New Zealand government is slowly actually communicating for the first time with ice.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Which again, isn't a lot, but it's something.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so if there are any major updates, we will have them on the show. And I've been doing kind of like updates during the week over on Webworm, where I'm just following stuff as closely as I can just to trace exactly what's going. Going on. But, you know, it's. It's rough. She's been taken and she's now sort of trapped in the system, that she's waiting for the legal side on the outside to kind of catch up with it somehow and sync up so that she can eventually get out.

[C]

Well, trapped in a system that seems to be intentionally incompetent.

[B]

Absolutely. So that's the latest on Everly. So, look, Lindsay wrote in and just said, despite stories like this being told over and over again in the news and social media, for some reason, this one has me even more furious. Maybe it's a lack of clarity around why she's being held, or maybe the full realization that there's something happening here that allows ICE agents to work beyond the realms of the law. Dallas wrote in. My fried cheese of a heart is so happy with all these Wisconsin episodes. Friday fish fry was a weekly staple for my family growing up. Up. My favorite side dish was potato pancakes with applesauce and rye bread. I don't really know what to do with that sentence, but I'm sure it's tasty. My brother and I would sit at the bar waiting for our table and order virgin grasshoppers, much to my dad's demise. I don't. Demise is the right word, but we'll go with it. In Wisconsin, it wasn't shocking to see kids belly up to the bar with their parents often trying to convince our dad to get us the alcoholic version. I don't know if it's still legal, but in the 90s, parents could buy their kids alcohol at a bar. That seems fucking crazy.

[C]

That does that.

[B]

That can't be legal. That doesn't seem right. I think you had a. I think your parents told you some things, Dallas, that were not legit. We started too young. I no longer live in Wisconsin, but the thing I miss the most is the traditional Friday fish fry. Sadly, I haven't found an equivalent here in South Carolina. Liner. I love the podcast and I think you and Rob are the perfect unlikely duo. I don't think we're that unlikely apart from the difference in our love of sport.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Leslie says, I'm born and raised Wisconsinite. I think a telltale sign of a supper club for my family is having a soup or salad option with dinner. Hadn't even looked into salads while I was there. I was too busy eating cheese. Jolene said, I just wanted to thank you for such positive, complimentary shows on Wisconsin. Wisconsinites are really happy with these episodes they feel seen.

[C]

Wisconsinites are also very nice people people. So.

[B]

Oh, that's also why they're just nice.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

God, there was so many emails from nice people. We often feel as though people don't even know where Wisconsin is on the map. And if we're mentioned, it's usually in a way that's poking fun. I thought both episodes were great and I hope you can come back to visit in a warmer season.

[C]

Speaking of supper clubs, my friend Eileen sent me. There is apparently the Turf Supper Club in San Diego.

[B]

We have one within a semi sensible driving distance from us. Apparently we end up in San Diego. We could go and supper club it up.

[C]

I could compare Turf Supper Club, which is a historic San Diego steakhouse in the Golden Hill neighborhood known for its unique grill your own steakhouse concept where patrons cook their own meat on a central grill in a classic old school Lounge atmosphere with red lighting, jukebox music, music and strong cocktails.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Established in the 1950s, it's a fun, casual and campy experience with a focus on quality meats, classic drinks and a lively, no frills vibe.

[B]

This sounds supper clubby. I don't know about the fry your own steak.

[C]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

I mean I like the idea of it. It sounds more steakhousey.

[C]

It's called turf supper club, so. Okay.

[B]

Well as an expert now on supper clubs, I'd be willing to go and assess the supper club ness of it. All that image looks supper clubby. They are. There are some out of Wisconsin. So this is possible. Finally. And this is a criticism. And we do, believe it or not, get criticisms. Some of them valid, some of them not. I think this is really valid and it's something I've been thinking about and I like this guy a lot. So Adam wrote in hello Bravid. That's why I like him because he opened with that hello Braven and Rob. I really enjoyed your podcast. Since his origin. The concept is brilliant, but as a 54 year old black man, I have to say you are really limiting yourself. Let me say that I'm not here to accuse you of any racism, but the amount of exploring America you've done that only leads to anything connected to suburban white America is a little disheartening. There's so much more out there I think would be really interesting to you and your listeners. Specifically, a while back you mentioned marching bands. This made me wish you would explore HBCU marching bands, Battle of the Bands competitions, Divine nine Black Greek Life Step shows, and so much more. More. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on more than just black culture in America. Maybe compare Chinese food in America versus actual food from China. Or explore different experiences of assimilation into America, like the fusion of French and black slave culture in Louisiana. The point is, if I can listen to two episodes on emo music, I think your other listeners could stand to be exposed to more of American culture from other perspectives. I debated whether to send this note and then decided to share my thoughts when you released the supper club episode. One of the whitest things around. Unfortunately I truly enjoyed it and again thought leave them alone and let them do what they do. But here it is my personal and fully unsolicited opinion. Whether you receive or react to this input or not, I will continue to be an avid fan and listener and thank you for both what you do. Adam Johnson, an old black dude. It was an amazing way to sign

[C]

off Very, very fair and very, very valid.

[B]

Yeah, super fair. I've got so many thoughts on that, but mainly it's something that I have taken on board. And I think both of us agree these would be great things to dive into. Speaking for myself, I think I have that thing of, like, I'm trying to grasp, my grasp American culture from my very white perspective without, like, stepping on toes. And I feel when I dive into other cultures, it's like a minefield for me. And I just don't want to it up, basically. Basically. But I think it's a really good note. And I also think it's a little bit. This sounds like an excuse, but a little bit about where I end up as well. Just as a white person, I just end up in white places. And that's something that I definitely need to think about. And I think it's really fucking good feedback. So thank you, Adam. If you have feedback, episode ideas or criticisms, praise whatever you want. FlightThispread chat Gmail.com we have a new episode on Patreon coming out on Thursday where Rob and I discuss our favorite gigs that we have recently been to.

[C]

Is there a reason we have some Waymo pins on the desk?

[B]

Oh, that was my other present to you. So at the Webbies. I mean, the Webbies. And we've talked about this over on Patreon, but the Webbies were a combination of really amazing creators doing really cool things.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then.

[B]

And corporate land.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So suddenly there's someone on stage selling us AI from Adobe and saying AI is amazing. Google is winning an award. Oh, thanks, Google. This horrific search engine that's becoming worse and worse. And at one point, Waymo won an award and they gave us Waymo pins.

[C]

Nice.

[B]

And I am gifting you three Waymo pins. It's got the Waymo logo ago. The future is now. And I just thought Rob would really love to clip some of those on his top.

[C]

Yeah, I would love. Oh, thank you, David, for very generous gift. This was before, after I sent you that article about a bunch of wayos being recalled in the US I believe it was because there was flooding and one drove into the flood waters.

[B]

I like there was a detail in that story that was like the Waymo slowed down, but it did just drive in to the waters. I got those pins before that news story. That news story made me like Waymos a lot less. I'm yet to go in one.

[C]

It's still not, huh?

[B]

I like the idea that if you have a human driver and they're doing Something you don't like, you can yell or direct your attention to them. Robot car being driven by AI or possibly drivers in other countries that are, like, controlling it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

How did it communicate with.

[C]

I did have my first robot delivery on Postmates.

[B]

Tell me about it. Because I've never had this. I know they exist.

[C]

It was fine.

[B]

The thing I found interesting about it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't have to tip a robot driver.

[C]

Yes. They refund you your tip that you put. Because I'm not picking a robot to deliver it.

[B]

To be clear, you're not picking a

[C]

robot, but it also has to be with. It's got to be close enough to your place that you're ordering from, which most of the time I'm just going to go pick up my food.

[B]

So you got to understand, like, if people listen to this in New Zealand, they may have no clue what you're talking about. So just tell me what look like. Just a mystery.

[C]

Yeah. So it's just a little box on wheels.

[B]

It's got cute eyes on the front. It looks cute.

[C]

They. They name all of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I live on top of a hill, so I think. Think they weren't really sending them in our neighborhood.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

But they've changed that.

[B]

Okay. So you're. So your Uber Eats or whatever says driver's arrived. You go out your front door.

[C]

What do you see instead of it coming to your door like a Postmates will? Normally there's a little robot sitting there because.

[B]

Yeah. You have stairs. It can't get up the stairs.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

So it's sitting at the bottom of your stairs, looking side of you. It's on the sidewalk with its little eyes blinking, drinking.

[C]

Yes. Parked. You have your phone out, which unlocks it, opens it up. I had some topo chicos in there that were just scattered around.

[B]

Yeah. They've been on a journey.

[C]

Yep. They did not stay upright.

[B]

Huh.

[C]

Got my tacos out. And that was it.

[B]

And you closed the lid.

[C]

It closed itself.

[B]

So automatic.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That's cool. And then it just trundles off into the night.

[C]

It just stayed there for little bit.

[B]

Rob. I. Look, I don't like a lot of things to do with this whole.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A system. I find them and, like, they're very cute. Like, they design them so you're. So that you're not going to kick them.

[C]

You're tricked by the eyes that they put.

[B]

I'm tricked by the eyes completely.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think they're a little person. And I was Walking home, maybe about 9pm busy street. There was a little Waymo that was sort of keeping pace with me. And then it turned to go over a pedestrian crossing. It sat there while cars were just blasting up and down the street.

[C]

The Waymo did or the Waymo.

[B]

The Sorry, not the Waymo. A little delivery. Food delivery vehicle. We're talking about little guy. And I watched it for a while and I realized that none of the cars were slowing and stopping. There was no gaps in the traffic. And so this little, poor little thing sat there for about five minutes. I was just watching it. And I legitimately felt emotion towards it. I need to help you cross. And so I went and crossed the crosswalk.

[C]

You walked him across the street?

[B]

I walked him across and I was like, will he follow me? But yeah, I walked in front by about a meter. Traffic stopped. The little guy walked over with me. It felt really special. And he went on his way to deliver his little meal, probably to your fucking house. Thank me for that.

[C]

Arriving, I don't think it was.

[B]

And I walked home and I felt I had done a good deed for this little guy on wheels rules. And that's my story. They're really. They're really personable. And all you need to do to fool an idiot like me is put a couple of eyes on it, apparently. And I'm fully endeared to the whole thing.

[C]

The one thing that has helped me by Maru, there is like part of the sidewalk that comes up and they get stuck there all the time. And they're just sitting there because they can't. They can't get by doing anything.

[B]

Do you help them across?

[C]

No.

[B]

What I would do now, I'd pick them up, I'd cradle them.

[C]

I don't think you're so attained to

[B]

the other side of the tree.

[C]

Put them down. They're like being surveillanced. And I don't think you're supposed to touch them, David.

[B]

Okay, don't touch away, Mo. Not away, man. What do you call them? What are they even?

[C]

No, delivery.

[B]

Little dilute delivery pods.

[C]

All right. Playlist.

[B]

Patreon.com and just a reminder, because I always forget to talk about this. We shoot video for this and we have video of this show on Spotify. So if you want to. What we're talking about and what we look like, and Sienna, we have video on Spotify. It's all integrated in there. So if you want to watch it, I suggest you have a little peek.

[C]

Yeah, fewer ads on Spotify too. So you want to see what we look like click over there, turn on the video. Otherwise we're on all other platforms.