Child Stars with Mara Wilson

Summary

Flightless Bird Podcast Summary

Episode: Child Stars with Mara Wilson

Host: David Farrier (A), with cohost Rob (C)
Guest: Mara Wilson (D)
Date: February 24, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, David Farrier explores the world of Hollywood child stars, focusing on what it means to grow up in the spotlight, the realities behind the glamour, and the psychological effects of childhood fame. Mara Wilson—best known for her iconic roles in Matilda, Mrs. Doubtfire, and Miracle on 34th Street—joins to share candid reflections on her Hollywood childhood, challenging popular perceptions of abuse, privilege, and public scrutiny of child stars. The episode delves into both the nuances of her personal experience and the broader, sometimes darker, culture around child stardom, especially in America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Growing Up On Set: Normalizing the Surreal

• Mara grew up in Burbank, CA, surrounded by industry kids, with acting often considered just another after-school activity. Despite her father working at NBC, her entry into acting was not from a place of privilege or “nepo baby” status, but a result of family connections to a toothpaste commercial.

  "People look at Hollywood and they think it is uniquely terrible to children. It is not always a great place. But I can say from personal experience, I always felt safe on film sets." — Mara, [27:08]

2. Privilege, Pressure & Public Perception

• Mara discusses how the public, not the industry itself, was the most harmful aspect of fame, especially regarding sexualization and accessibility:

  "Hollywood pushes you into the pool, but it's the public that holds you under.” — Mara, [27:54]

• She emphasizes that institutions—including Hollywood, churches, and schools—attract predators, but child predation is not unique to show business.

3. The Impact of Fame on Childhood

• Even with supportive parents, Wilson faced objectification, unwanted sexualization, and disturbing fan interactions, especially online:

  "I was just all braces and zits...but I was still sexualized...I was photoshopped into child sexual abuse materials. I mean, can you imagine finding that at 12?" — Mara, [38:00]

4. Differentiating Child Acting Experiences

• While some child actors endure misery or abuse, Mara stresses her film sets were mostly safe; however, the emotional burden came from outside (fame, press, and fans).
• She cautions against lumping all child acting experiences together and notes many child performers have positive memories, particularly if they have support systems.

5. Press Junkets & Childhood Labor

• Mara critiques the lack of boundaries for famous children—especially press tours, which can be grueling and inappropriate:

  “Imagine having 20 job interviews in one day while you're jet lagged and you're not quite sure what city you're in...and then there's going to be like one question that they spring on you that's completely inappropriate...” — Mara, [36:27]

6. Media, Sexualize Youth, & Changing Norms

• The conversation revisits 1990s mainstream culture, including media countdowns to when young female stars turned legal, calling out how normalized such sexualization was.

  “I got asked all the time if I had a boyfriend when I was a kid, and I was like, no, I'm seven. Why would I have a boyfriend?” — Mara, [32:00]

• Mara notes improvements in sensitivity, with some productions (e.g., Bluey) protecting children's privacy by not crediting their real names.

7. Advice for Parents & Aspiring Child Actors

• Mara strongly advises: pursue acting as a fun, short-term project—not a lifestyle—document it for memories, and prioritize normalcy and well-being.

  “A lot of people want their kids to be stars, but... do you want your kid to be a has-been? Because they're going to be accused of being a has-been when they're like 13.” — Mara, [53:53]

• She highlights theater as a healthier alternative for a child’s creative aspirations.

8. Institutional Accountability—Not Just Hollywood’s Burden

• She warns against scapegoating Hollywood exclusively for child abuse; the same dynamics play out in any organization where adults have unchecked power over children.

9. Social Media, Parasociality, and the Uncanny Valley of Relatability

• Mara observes that fans' desires to connect intimately with celebrities can quickly turn sour, and overexposed stars are prone to sudden takedowns by the public.

  “...there's this drop off point. Everybody loves you and then everybody hates you.” — Mara, [52:44]

10. Changes in the Industry—Slow but Growing

• There is a call for standardized international protections for child actors, such as on-set therapists and regulated working conditions.
• Mara points to Sean Astin (a former child actor now SAG president) as a sign of slow cultural change.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Fame and Fans:

  “I get a lot of 'you look so familiar'...and now I'm like, this is a nice thing. They appreciated my work.” — Mara, [41:04]

• On Inappropriate Fan Encounters:

  “He asks, 'Which one were you the youngest in?'...And I just basically looked directly at the guy and I said, 'You need to go...What you're asking is very creepy.'” — Mara, [49:44]

• On Set Culture vs. Public Perception:

  “I think what really stood out...was that like, press and the public really have a lot to do with why it can go sideways.” — Rob, [64:47]

• Advice to Parents:

  "Try to stick to theater...try to imagine how happy you were when you were first performing...If it’s yes, then you’re doing it for the love of the game." — Mara, [54:29]

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Timestamps for Essential Segments

• Intro Banter / Setting the Stage: [00:01–03:51] — Childhood nostalgia, Nickelodeon's dark side, prepping for Mara's appearance.
• Reflecting on Child Stardom: [17:05–18:12] — Why talking to someone who lived it is crucial.
• Mara Wilson's Entry and Bio: [26:09–27:03]
• Hollywood Culture vs. Public Accountability: [27:08–27:54], [38:00]
• Public Sexualization & Objectification: [31:17–32:06], [38:00–38:37]
• Press Junkets and Media Impact: [36:20–36:58]
• Advice to Parents/Kids: [53:07–55:17]
• Improvements & Institutional Changes: [42:55–44:21], [55:19–56:49]
• Memorable Fan Encounters: [48:17–51:07]

---

Tone & Style

David and Rob maintain their hallmark playful, skeptical, and genuinely curious tone. Mara Wilson brings openness, candor, and a blend of humor and seriousness to the discussion. The show intersperses darker revelations with classic Flightless Bird banter, nostalgia, and relatable awkwardness.

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Noteworthy Takeaways

• Not all child star stories are horror stories; supportive families and good sets matter.
• Fame’s dangers often stem from the public and media rather than “Hollywood” per se.
• Institutional abuse is a broader issue; Hollywood’s issues echo those in schools, churches, and other arenas.
• Standardization and child-actor protection need work. International models (e.g., Canada’s on-set therapists) point toward improvement.
• Privileged conditions can hinder normal development (e.g., always being told what to do can foster forgetfulness).
• Encourage creative play, not the pursuit of fame, and be vigilant about exploitation—from both within and outside the industry.

---

Concluding Reflection

This episode offers a refreshingly complex view of child stardom—one that disrupts the lazy binary of “Hollywood ruined me” vs. “living the dream.” Mara Wilson’s testimony underscores the importance of public responsibility and attentive parenting, and leaves listeners with a nuanced, empathetic understanding of what it really means to be a child star in America.

---

For further resources, Mara recommends her recent article in The Guardian on child sexual abuse materials and AI ([57:06]), and participation in conventions and works like “Showbiz Kids.”

Transcript

[A]

Hi, David. Hi, Rosabelle. How are you?

[B]

I'm good. How are you?

[A]

I think I've got my podcast voice on.

[B]

Oh, do you? I didn't even notice. I was. I was too distracted because I'm in a weird place

[A]

emotionally or geographically.

[B]

I'm inside the offices at Te Papa, but I am. You know, everyone's being really quiet, so I'm trying to speak quietly, too.

[A]

For our international listeners that may not know what Te Papa is, what is.

[B]

Is our national museum. And I'm down here launching a different podcast to Flightless Bird tonight. So I'm just working at one of the desks. I know it's. You could say it's a betrayal, but I'm not. I'm not actually featured in the podcast. It's different.

[A]

Oh, that's okay then. That's okay. We won't sue just yet.

[B]

Just yet.

[A]

Now, today's question. I'll keep it brief because you've got work to do, but we are talking about being a child star with Mara Wilson. She's on the show.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I'm just wondering if you watched her and anything when you were a kid. Like, I think it was Mrs. Doubtfire, Miracle on 34th street, and of course, Matilda.

[B]

Ah, I've seen all of those films. I love her.

[A]

Yeah, she's pretty great. Do you have, like, any sort of. Do you remember where you watched them or what you were doing or any sort of emotions around them?

[B]

I was just such a big Robin Williams fan when I was a kid. I couldn't tell you when I first watched Mrs. Doubtfire, but I watched it so many times. I loved that movie. Probably loved it more than the other two films, which I'm have a different connection to.

[A]

Well, they didn't have Robin Williams in them, so that would. That would line up.

[B]

It's true, someone did accuse me of being quite trunchable, like the other day, so maybe I do have a connection to it.

[A]

What was the context of that?

[B]

I'd rather not get into it.

[A]

Look, do you think you were being Miss Trunchbull esque, or do you think that was a mischaracterization at the time?

[B]

Oh, look, I think that's a private conversation that you and I can have and you can make a decision.

[A]

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealand accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now, last week was our Nickelodeon episode where Rob took me through a 50 something page slideshow demonstrating his love and affection for all things nickelodeon. It was a celebratory episode about childhood, about a time when children had the attention span to get through an entire episode of Rugrats and iCarly. But of course, as we briefly alluded to, there is also a darker side to childhood tv, or at least a side that isn't as sparkly and whimsical as the shows themselves. So with this episode, we thought we'd talk to someone who grew up as a child star, someone who knows this world better than we do. Mara Wilson is an actor, podcaster, and author who rose to fame pretty early when she was a kid starring in films. Like I said to Roosevelt, Mrs. Doubtfire, Miracle on 34th street, and of course, the titular character, Matilda in Matilda. She's had a lot of time to reflect on those years and has a lot of complex and nuanced thoughts on that time as well. So prepare for a dose of nostalgia mixed in with a lot of. Is it a good idea for kids to become famous so early? And how should I feel about that? Because this is the Child Stars episode. Flag Miss Flagness Flag Miss Birds down

[C]

in America I'm a fly Lis Bird Touchdown in America.

[A]

Now while that theme song was playing and I was. And we were listening to Rosewell Rob, you were rearranging a number of things around.

[C]

I was just adjusting some volume.

[A]

You adjust some volumes. You moved some props around. And you were upset that I placed my water on the table without a coaster. And it's one thing I've noticed about you. It's placing something without a coaster really riles you up. And I wanted to just briefly talk about that.

[C]

Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as to say really upset.

[A]

You get a certain sort of. I can see you stiffen up a little bit in your posture.

[C]

Respect wood. I don't. Do you. Not respectably.

[A]

What's the main. You get the ring on a table, don't you? Yeah.

[C]

It ruins a table.

[A]

It ruins.

[C]

Cause it ruins a business.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We use this on other shows.

[A]

Yeah. And you don't.

[C]

I do this thing where you look at your table, there's three coasters.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Sitting around, and somehow you still manage to not get it on a coaster.

[A]

I am. I do like having a lot of different vessels of liquid around as well. Sure.

[C]

That's why you have three.

[A]

That's why I have three. But yeah. I find them. I find it much better to just put it directly on the wood. Something about that.

[C]

Something about ruining. Ruining the wood that you're putting it on.

[A]

Ruining your beautiful set.

[C]

Do you use coasters at home? I actually recently only use marble countertops.

[A]

There's only marble in my house. I live in, like, sort of a porn star style. Only black marble for me. No, I actually bought some coasters for the first time probably six months ago.

[C]

Good for you.

[A]

And I'm trying to use them. Yeah. But I gotta say, I've lived in this place for three years now. There's a few wooden surfaces in there. I'm not noticing, like, a lot of rings. I think the rings from not putting things on coasters is maybe a myth.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I've definitely gotten rings on things from people.

[A]

Have you?

[C]

Yeah, there's rings on this. You want me to lift this up and show you

[A]

who did that? Who was. Who was.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

Probably Natalie. It was probably Natalie. I believe you. Yeah. There are rings, you know, there are rings. And that's from someone not using a coaster. I've learned my lesson.

[C]

I think, though, what it probably is,

[A]

at home, I put this coffee on a coaster.

[C]

I mean, that doesn't need a coaster because it's not cold or wet and it's not gonna.

[A]

Also, this coffee cup can go on.

[C]

If it's, like room temperature now, then. Yeah. But what it. What it probably is, is you're not drinking, like, super cold stuff at home.

[A]

No, it's true.

[C]

That's gonna have condensation.

[A]

I. I see.

[C]

And get. Because that's what happens is the condensation drips and then you gotta pool.

[A]

Yeah. Underneath, around. And that's where the problem comes in. And because I've removed this water from your fridge. It's very cold.

[C]

I like cold water.

[A]

Yeah. You have your fridge at a very cold temp in here. So there is condensation. I'm noticing that now. Yes.

[C]

So why, instead of putting on a wood table, put it on a nice. I got like 40 coasters in there.

[A]

There's so many. How's your week been? We've had a lot of. There's been a big two days of rain in Los Angeles. Yep. My roof leaked a little bit, which is quite annoying. You sent me a photo of a tree that had fallen across the road.

[C]

Yeah. That was the, like, main road.

[A]

A massive tree. Yeah. Yeah. It's intense.

[C]

Yeah. And I think it had just fallen because people were, like, starting to wander out. And it was on a car.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Smashed a car. That's the second car I've seen smashed this year.

[A]

It is that thing where Los Angeles trees don't seem to be Able to cope with wind. Like they're not deeply rooted, they just seem to sort of blow over at a whim. The trees in New Zealand, deeply rooted, very strong, can put up with a lot of wind. In la, it's weird yet because also

[C]

in Chicago it's kind of like that when there's really bad windy rainstorms.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

A lot of times they'll come down giant branches. I've. I've never seen in Chicago. Like both of the trees in LA that fell over were like from the roof.

[A]

It's comical. La. It's not comical, it's dangerous. But it's like it's. You look at it and you're like, how is this possible? Yeah, it's like. This is weird to me.

[C]

Yeah. Whereas like Chicago though, the bad storms would come in, just whole branches would come off and smash cars.

[A]

I see.

[C]

So less.

[A]

Less dramatic, but still.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

My big news of the week. Before we got onto Child Stars, I went and had a follow up with my gum person because I got these

[C]

gum grafts to see if the gum would take.

[A]

Yes, the gum took. So you said these are great gums. She said, all your gums now, 10 out of 10 great gums. But she said, I think you should go down the hall and see the orthodontist because I think your teeth have got some problems in the way they're growing. Because when you get over the age of 40, your teeth can start to crowd each other out. And I've noticed I've got a gap. I've talked about this a bit before. I've got a gap in my teeth that's formed and that's cause my lower teeth are pushing my two front teeth out a little bit. So I've got this gap. So anyway, cut a long story short, went to the orthodontist.

[C]

You're getting braces, I'm getting braces.

[A]

No, see, so I had braces when I was 15. Horrific. I imagine a lot of people listening to this would have had braces at some point.

[C]

Yeah, braces.

[A]

Yeah. They're ratcheting it up.

[C]

Around that age too is like very rough to have braces.

[A]

I had pimples, glasses, braces, all at the same time. All delivered threesome. Horrible.

[C]

They wanted me to get braces again when I was like 17 or 18 and I was just like. Absolutely.

[A]

Just to like correct things a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Well, this is where we get to now because essentially teeth were great when I was a kid, but apparently like you go through like more growth in your 20s and your 30s. Point being, I think I'm going to get Invisalign because the way my teeth are connecting, fast forward 20, 30 years, it's going to be a problem. And so I think Invisalign's happening. And the reason I'm bringing this up, I noticed that it's about. They said it was, like, $6,000.

[C]

Oh, so you're trying to get them

[A]

as a sponsor full on? Yeah. I'm thinking I Googled it. Where's Invisalign? They're in America. They're an American company.

[C]

They sponsor a lot of podcasts.

[A]

Do they?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Invisalign. If anyone's listening, I don't particularly want to pay $6,000 for this thing. It's not a vanity project. Is purely. My teeth are, like, whacking in weird directions.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Do you want, like, a side plot to this? Sure. I have an unsymmetrical face, so one side of my face is longer than another. So I'm a bit wonky.

[C]

Is that why you, like, cock your head a lot?

[A]

I'm always turning, I see cameras. I'm always sort of angling a bit away because if you see me straight on, you'll be horrified. Wonky. So what's happening is my teeth are connecting on one side more than the other. Because it's wonky.

[C]

Just like the gravity of your body.

[A]

My gravity of my body just like, sucking my jaw down. No, but the horrific thing is, she said if you wanted to, if you were gonna do this and get a perfect, like, bite, we'd need to go to a surgeon, break your jaw, reset it, and then do the orthodontic treatment. I said, absolutely fucking no. You're not breaking my jaw. Like, I do not. Like, come on. I will invest a bit in my mouth so that I'm not, like, grinding my teeth. You're not breaking my fucking jaw.

[C]

That's an insane. I was shocked Thing to suggest. A doctor to suggest.

[A]

Yes. No. And it was. I was legitimately shocked. I googled them. They're legit. They're the real deal. It's just something I hadn't even thought of. But because my bite is different on one side to the other, I was just shocked. It's not often I've been sitting in a medical establishment and being shocked by what someone suggested to me, I didn't

[C]

realize that there's growth and changing happening. I thought once your adult teeth come in, that's it.

[A]

Yeah. No, I thought the same thing. Apparently, men, and I think this probably explains a few things. You know how, like, old men have, like, massive ears and, like, massive noses.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They keep growing. And woman apparently, like, hits puberty, basically. You stop then if you're a woman. Men, we keep growing in, like, really weird, like, unseemly ways. And so my face has, like, changed more on, like, one side than the other, which is why I've got this uneven bite.

[C]

Well, this is a good segue because

[A]

I'm curious where this is going.

[C]

You said after your 40s starts happening.

[A]

How.

[C]

How old are you?

[A]

Okay, I know. I know where you're going with this. Yeah, no, there was a big problem and I'm a bit annoyed that no one fact checked this, including my own brain. So I looked when Nickelodeon was. Was debuted. 1979 is what you said. Yeah. And so my brain went. 1979. That was three years away from when you were born. Away from when I was born.

[C]

You went the wrong direction.

[A]

I went the wrong direction. So I stated very confidently that three,

[C]

which means you would have been born in 1976. 76, right.

[A]

Making me pushing 50. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I was nice. A lot of people wrote in saying, my God, Dave, he is so young. You're so, like, youthful. This is crazy. You're not pushing 50 and. Correct. I'm not. I'm 43. But pretty. A pretty dumb thing to sort of forget when you were born.

[C]

Yeah, but I see what.

[A]

You see what I did.

[C]

I see what you did.

[A]

I went backwards instead of forwards.

[C]

Yeah. It's confused. It's confusing now that we're in 20, 26 like we used to have. You didn't have to go over.

[A]

I know. I completely.

[C]

Thousand.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[C]

So now it's 26 on top of.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

12 for me or 18 for you?

[A]

Yeah. It fucks you up, right? Yeah, yeah. But it was. Yeah, I stated it so confidently in the episode. I always assume in, like, all these episodes, I'll be getting quite a few things wrong, but not my own age and not in the first, like, five seconds of the show.

[C]

I will say. Calvin asked us how old we were the other day, and both Natalie and I got it wrong.

[A]

That's really good.

[C]

Well, he tried saying we were a year younger than we were and we were like, no, that's not right. We're this age.

[A]

And so who got it right? Him or you or you? Were you both wrong?

[C]

He had it right.

[A]

How old are you?

[C]

I don't. I'm 30. 37 or 8?

[A]

30.

[C]

I'm 30.

[A]

Wow. You know you know, let's get. That's right. It's hard.

[C]

Yeah. Well, because.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The 20. The 20.

[B]

20.

[C]

20, 25 was my last birthday.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So that means I'm 37. I'm turning 38 this year.

[A]

That's good news.

[C]

I thought I was 38 until now. It also feels weird. I don't. I didn't think I was turning 39 this year, so. But Calvin had it right.

[A]

He's a smart kid.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I love you arguing with your kid about how old you are. It's really good. Yeah, it's really, really good. Speaking of age, child stars.

[C]

Child stars.

[A]

How's that for a segue? Well, let's.

[C]

Before we get into that, just a little bit of housekeeping.

[A]

Yes. What do we got?

[C]

Do have live podcasts coming up that you can still get tickets for.

[A]

29th of March, Salt Lake City at the depot. Great venue.

[C]

April 2nd in one of my favorite cities, Austin, Texas, at Emos, which I've seen lots of music shows there, and I'm excited to put on a show there.

[A]

I love these venues.

[C]

And then April 4th in Dallas at the Texas Theater.

[A]

Very appropriate name, seeing as we are in Texas.

[C]

Those are on sale now. We'll put links in the description of this episode, wherever you're listening.

[A]

I am starting to get excited by these because I'm starting to hear back from guests that I'm trying to book and find. And it's the most fun part because you're just hearing from all these different people. And, yeah, we're going to have some

[C]

good shows lined up, and it's a nice place where we can get a little weirder than we normally would.

[A]

Yeah. What is that?

[C]

Well, it's because we can't normally fill a full topic with something super bizarre like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Or we have less access to it because it's so specific to that city.

[A]

Yeah, it's like the crazy gets turned up somewhat. It's more of like a smorgasbord of America as opposed to like a big deep dish. Yes.

[C]

Which. With that in mind, if you are a taxidermist in Salt Lake City, Austin or Dallas, reach out to us. We'd love to put some birds on stage. Some dead birds on stage.

[A]

Yeah, we do. I got to say, I'm pretty proud of how our stages end up looking. We dress them beautifully. And if. If you work for Invisalign and you're looking to sponsor one of our live shows and sort my bite out. Don't need you to break my jaw, but get in touch flightlessbreadchatmail.com if they

[C]

were willing to break your jaw for free as part of the sponsorship.

[A]

So what would cover the whole procedure? No, I never want my jaw broken. Man. I've never had a more horrific thing put to me by like a medical professional. Usually it's like we'll put stitches in.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, to break. Don't break me. I'm here to be put together. My body's already a mess. Don't break it more.

[C]

It reminds me of those, like, surgeries that people have to get taller where they like, break their legs and extend them to extend.

[A]

Yeah. Some horrific. Yeah. I still can't believe it. Now, today we're going to talk to Mara Wilson. We recorded that conversation a few days ago. Delightful convo. But I thought it was important because we had such a whimsical, wonderful Nickelodeon chat just to kind of acknowledge and sort of look at some of the crazier sides to being a child, sort of being involved in children's tv. Cause it is just objectively quite a weird thing. Like being a kid's quite weird. And then suddenly you're a star and on camera and working with a bunch of adults intrinsically quite a weird thing to do. Like, usually when you're a kid, you're not working as well. So, like labor thing going on. Acting is like one of the weird things. When you were a kid, you're getting paid to do quite a hard, intense.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that unto itself is quite weird.

[C]

Which. And you, when you were a kid, like going back to the Nickelodeon episode, you're not thinking about that for any of these kids and absolutely not.

[A]

They're having the best time.

[C]

And you're like, there's no part of you as a kid which is good, that is thinking like, oh, this person could be treated horribly or.

[A]

No, the opposite. It's like these kids have like the best. They're having the best time. I wish I could have a time that good.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Obviously some of those kids had a terrible time.

[C]

Yes. Well. And the funny thing about the cartoons is I think a lot of the kids voices on cartoons are grown adults just doing crazy voices.

[A]

I remember I was lucky enough to go to a table read of the Simpsons one time. And so you had all the actors. There was a couple of them were zooming in, but most of them were in the room.

[C]

How old were you?

[A]

I was 10.

[C]

10?

[A]

No, no. This was like last year. And I went there. Cause a friend of mine works in the show. Just seeing. I mean, I know we all know this, but seeing adults voice like Bart and Lisa and like.

[C]

Well, and they're like different genders from the characters too, a lot of times.

[A]

Mind blowing. It's the weirdest thing. So. Yeah, that is quite a weird aspect to it. Quiet on set is like the definitive thing, I feel that got people kind of talking about how bad things could be. And that doubt specifically with. What was the guy's name? Dan Schreider.

[C]

Yeah, Schneider.

[A]

Dan Schneider.

[C]

Which, I mean, he probably worked on a handful of the shows we talked

[A]

about last week, so. So many of them. Yes, so many of them. And the stories about him kind of dribbled out in 2018, kind of MeToo time. Deadline did an article about some gender discrimination. So it kind of started sort of lightly. Nothing like too insane, but still awful. And then 2021, New York Times reported that Nickelodeon had severed ties with him. So obviously something else is sort of something else is going on in there. And that was more, I think, about him verbally abusing colleagues and just kind of being like a shithead, bulshy idiot. And then in 2022, more reports came out, and that was more about him requesting massages on set. And so not from kids, from adults, but getting into, like, not great territory at all.

[C]

Yeah. Bad power dynamics.

[A]

And then since then, there's been a lot of accusations about him behaving inappropriately with younger stars on set. Because he was like, the creator. Like, he'd. Like. He was the guy that everyone knew made these shows and he'd be wandering around on all these sets. And there's a lot. There's enough accusations. He's denied a lot of them, but there's so many of them, you kind of have to go, oh, yeah, something's going on here. This is not good. And just crazy to think that, like, the head, like Nickelodeon Big Honcho is the one who is also just like, a gross dude.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, the, like, taking advantage in the power dynamic of that, especially introducing kids, is the, like, worst. Worst imaginable thing. I have a hard time watching those types of things. I've intentionally not watched that documentary.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Having kids myself. Yeah. Those are. Those are hard watches for me.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's. It's funny. It's like, I feel that way. I still haven't watched the Michael Jackson doc. Cause it feels too icky. It's like once it gets into that territory, it's like, I believe this person's a horrific person. Don't need to watch a blow by blow of the whole thing.

[C]

Yes. That's how I feel like I understand. And that's all I need to hear and know about it.

[A]

And I often think about this. With just the amount of true crime kind of horror show stuff that's served up, it is kind of good sometimes to know your limits of what you should watch and consume and have some sense of boundaries in that. And, yeah, I don't have kids. I think I can completely understand how that would make things even more unpalatable because it's like, the worst thing you can think about is someone being a shithead in any capacity. Your children or any kids.

[C]

It's like, well, even watching adolescents, it's like that too. Like, you're watching a kid that reminds you of your kid. Or like, when your kid is the same age and it's hard to just not, like, think about, like, oh, if I was this parent and this was happening.

[A]

Yeah. What am I doing?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In the case of adolescence, your immediate reaction is like, I'm gonna defend my kid. Like, my kid wouldn't do anything like this.

[C]

Yeah. You know, but then that whole. The reason that show was so brilliant, it was like, okay, well, what if he did?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And how are you dealing with that?

[A]

I just got goosebumps thinking about adolescence. Like, that show is still one of the most. Probably a perfect show or as close to perfect as you can get performances the way it was shot. Yeah. And if you haven't seen adolescence, it's going to devastate you. But please watch it.

[C]

Incredible child actor. And, like, who knows what? Like, having to do that is going to, like, hopefully there's enough of a support system around this kid, which I will say, too, I think that's important. And Mara will touch on this a little bit. Like, sets are all different and studios are all different and films are all different. Like, what happened on one, I don't think you can blanket say is every child experience, and we shouldn't be assuming that.

[A]

No. And I think that's why Mara's story is good because, like, she. She had, like, a pretty positive time on the sets. It was more just the fact of what being a child star, like, did to her psyche and how other people were because of that. So she's got a much more, like, nuanced view. I think the craziest thing about the Nickelodeon situation is that we got so much feedback, which I'll read later to last week's episode, because everyone has. They grew up with these iconic, amazing shows. It's just so bizarre that the guy behind so many of those shows was a sleazebag.

[C]

Yeah, well. And these characters that meant so much to so many people's childhoods and, like, impacted lives so much. Like, knowing then what they were going through while this was being made puts a dark cloud over things.

[A]

I can see why Nickelodeon wanted to sever ties. And we also. We touched on this a little bit in the slime episode, which is going back a while now. But you know the specific and you can. There's a shit ton of this online. He's been written about at length, but he was obviously awful to certain actors and inappropriate to people allegedly underage as well as adults. But then you just look at, like, you widen it out and it's really weird thinking about stuff like slime, you know, like just these kids getting, like, slimed all the time. If you start to look at it through, like, another lens, it gets creepier and creepier and weirder. And you can. One aspect can be like, oh, kids are getting, like, gunged or slimed. It's hilarious. But then suddenly when you look at the person that's, like, doing this and inventing it and you look at those games, it does take on, like, a super weird dynamic, which we talked about in the slime episode. But I keep thinking about that as well. Like, there's so much weirdness.

[C]

Yeah, it tastes. Taints the image for sure.

[A]

Completely.

[C]

But yeah, that is also why we wanted to talk to a child actor. Because us talking about it is not helpful. We weren't child actors. We don't know what that was like.

[A]

I was actually one of the worst actors at my school. I tried to be in a Shakespeare production and I was so, so shy. Mouth went, like, painfully dry. It was A Midsummer Night's Dream. I can't even remember what my character was, but I was very minimal. Just panic. Just, like, awful being on stage. Yeah. Couldn't think of anything worse.

[C]

And hey, we're going on stage.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

March 29th, April 2nd, April 4th. Maybe David will recite some of Middle's dreams.

[A]

Dream I'll have flashbacks. I'll freeze up. Oh, my God.

[C]

Well, yeah, let's talk to Mara.

[A]

Yeah, this is Mara. She was in an HBO doc called Showbiz Kids, which you should watch. But this is her on our couch a couple of days ago.

[D]

My name is Mara Wilson and I am a writer. Actor. Mostly voiceover these days. Mostly these days. I do audiobook narration, which I absolutely love. Best job I've ever had. And I write articles, I write plays, I write all kinds of different things. Writer, performer, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, and I was a child actor who grew up in the LA area.

[A]

It was sort of surreal meeting you because I grew up in New Zealand, knowing Matilda very, very well, Mrs. Doubtfire as well. And I thought that's why it would be good to have you in here today. Because we've recently done an episode on Nickelodeon and got to thinking about the world of children in TV and especially in Los Angeles. It's such a thing. And I was like, oh my God, I know someone that could speak to this so clearly.

[C]

And we talk about it in a fun way and we know that it's not always it's fun.

[D]

I kind of have an issue with the way that a lot of these things are being talked about right now because, you know, things like child abuse and child exploitations are problems with institutions. And I think a lot of people look at Hollywood and they think it is uniquely terrible to children. It is not always a great place. But I can say from personal experience, I always felt safe on film sets. There were some questionable things like, hey, Mara, could you work overtime? You know, and you're asking, you know, a 10 year old, can she work overtime? But. But it wasn't the abusive place that so many people think it was.

[A]

And you didn't come out of a nightmare situation.

[D]

I mean, I kind of did, but like, it wasn't. It wasn't the sets, it wasn't the film industry. It was, I say, you know, Hollywood pushes you into the pool, but it's the public that holds you under.

[A]

Maybe we should sort of start by how you got into this space as well. Because I can't imagine being your age as a kid and being in front of a camera or even thinking about that. How did that even begin for you?

[D]

I grew up in Burbank, California. My dad worked at NBC for a while and my parents didn't get me into it. It's funny because I've had the Nepo baby thing thrown at me and I'm like, my dad was a maintenance engineer at a TV station bc and they're

[A]

like, oh, we know how you got it.

[D]

Exactly, Exactly. I'm like, I'm like, nobody gives a shit about engineers. And my dad will tell you that himself. Whenever they change owners, people will say to my dad, like, are you worried about this? And he goes, does the CO cockroaches care? Do the cockroaches care who owns the building?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And people always forget. They think it's like these power players all the time, but they forget the thousands of people who work on film sets. So I grew up with children of, you know, editors and people who did practical effects and, you know, children of first 80s and things like that. Burbank, where I lived was more of a lower middle class, you know, even working class area at the time. It is not anymore. And there were people who were actors, but they were very low level actors. They were, they were journeyman actors. They weren't making a lot of money. So that was what it was. And I think, I know that my grandfather worked in PR at one point and he I think was like, hey, they need families for this toothpaste commercial. My parents were like, okay, we have five children and it would be nice to put some money away for college. So they appeared in it and they wanted real families. And I've watched the video and they did two real families. And one of these are these California blonde, you know, hippie, white Aryan family, like playing guitar together and singing. And then there's my family, which opens with my mom yelling at my brother for hitting one of my brothers. And you see them get hit and you see them yelling on the camera and I'm just like, oh, great, we're that family. And I didn't know this till I was an adult. I was in it as a baby. So really that was my first commercial. But one of my brothers after that was like, you know, he was very, he was very charming, very talkative and he was like, hey, I'd like to do more of this. So he did more, but he got really burned out of it. He burned out on it really quickly. He was like, I don't like this anymore. I want something.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And it's funny because for a lot of us, I think, who grew up there, it was kind of just like an after school activity.

[A]

It was so normal. It was almost boring.

[C]

Coming from outside of la.

[A]

Yeah, it seems weird to understand that,

[C]

but like I have two kids that have grown up in LA and our 3 year old's been on the podcast and has been on an armchair and like has.

[A]

Which is super weird for an outsider.

[C]

For him is totally normal. And there's people at his school and parents that are on TV that he sees or billboard.

[A]

I forget that here, that, that is in the culture. So deep.

[C]

Yeah, but it's, it's not as like insane as it sounds not being here.

[D]

I have friends who, whose parents are directors who like, you know, they made a, they made a movie and you know, the daughter was like in the background and. But yeah, I saw what my brother was doing, and I was like, I want to do that. And I think I was kind of born a bit of a people pleaser. And you cannot be a child actor without being a people pleaser. That's one of the problems with child acting, is that it encourages a lot of bad traits. A lot of people think people will say all the time, like, oh, well, you must have been abused in the industry, blah, blah, blah, which is a really messed up assumption to make about somebody like, oh, I bet you were, like, molested. That's like, what the is wrong with you?

[A]

Yeah, that should come from me.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. And no, I wasn't. And any sexual harassment I did experience was because I was in the public eye and I was accessible. So I had creepy old men, you know, writing me letters and, like, posting pictures about me on the Internet and doing these really awful things. And it was because I was in the public eye. And so I think a lot of people focus on these things. They never focus on. On the public's role in it. They don't focus on what the public does to children. You know, And I do think people are kind of having a reckoning because, like, 20 years ago, you remember the countdowns to when the Olsen twins and Emma Watson and everybody were legal, which

[A]

is mad when you think about that. Yeah.

[D]

But it was a normal thing.

[A]

You see some of those people on mainstream talk shows back then as well, and the way the hosts treat them and the kind of questions they have.

[D]

I got asked all the time if I had a boyfriend when I was a kid, and I was like, no, I'm seven. Why would I have a boyfriend?

[A]

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[A]

So when did you notice the transition when people did start knowing who you were, like what role really solidified that where you noticed those things?

[D]

I mean it was a little bit with Doubtfire, but it wasn't bad. And you know, I was actually really close friends with, with Matt and Lisa who played my brother and sister in that movie. And so sometimes Lisa And I would go out shopping or something and people would be like, you're that girl from that movie and so are you.

[A]

Yeah. So you had this really positive experience internally. And what got you was more the fact that they didn't prepare you or no one really prepared you for what it was like in public and what that would be like and how to deal with fame. Essentially.

[D]

That was the hard part, I think that there's so much that children are exposed to. People have said to me, can you be, you know, a healthy child actor and you know, or child stars shouldn't exist. And I say, I think you can be a somewhat healthy child actor, but I don't think you can be a healthy child star. If it were up to me, what I would do is I would do things like, first of all, I think directors should be interviewing the families of people there because there are unfortunately, and I knew this a lot, a lot of people whose parents are maybe addicts or parents or maybe, you know, living vicariously, parents who were abusive, they should be doing that. They should not force children to do press junkets at all. Like I remember the Stranger Things kids were like always being interviewed by everybody. And I was like, give them a break. They are children. They are teenagers.

[A]

For someone that doesn't understand the junket circuit, like, what is it about that that is particularly like harrowing, do you think?

[D]

Like, you know how intense a job interview is? Imagine having 20 of them in one day while you're jet lagged and you're not quite sure what city you're in.

[A]

Yeah. So essentially you're sat in a chair while in the other chair about 30 journalists are bought through and one up to the other, basically. Sit down. Hello. Questions?

[D]

Yes, they do.

[A]

All day.

[D]

It's going to be the same questions all day long that you're going to be very tired of. And then there's going to be like one question that they spring on you that's completely inappropriate or bizarre.

[A]

Yeah. Just to get that little bit of audio.

[D]

Exactly. And so you're in a strange dark room basically having, and it feels like a job interview. And so people will be, will say something sometime. They'll be like, why did they give such canned answers? Or they'll say, why is this actor acting like they're out of their mind?

[A]

And I'm like, they kind of are.

[D]

Because they are.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially when they're seven.

[D]

Exactly. And I don't think it's fair to do that to children. And I think that there's some measures that I'VE seen, like, I know Bluey, the show. Bluey has child actors on it, but they do not put those child. Those children's name in the credits. And I know, like, in the movie after son, the director, there's a kissing scene, but she angled the camera so the actors didn't actually have to kiss. And I think that that's. That could be very respectful because there is definitely. There were a lot of movies that I was getting where. Where I would have to kiss someone. And I remember my dad being like, you know, how do you feel about this?

[A]

That's where you're saying, you know, a director potentially should interview a whole family because you had a family that had your back the whole time. Yeah, there's kids there that their family doesn't give a shit. They just go and do this wrong.

[C]

Whatever he says.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, my par. Very worried about me being sexualized as a child. And it's probably a good thing that I was a really awkward teenager. Like, I was just. I was just all braces and, you know, and zits and I was. I was not a cute. There were some. There were some child actors who were like beautiful teenagers. I was not. I was a really awkward one. Although I wish I could say, like, it meant that I wasn't sexualized, but I wasn't. It. I. I still was. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't something that helped me. My parents tried to protect me from it, but I was still finding links, you know, that said, like, we have nude pictures of Mara Wilson, and obviously they didn't. It just meant I was photoshopped into child sexual abuse materials. And, I mean, can you imagine finding that at 12?

[A]

So what did that sort of do to you back then? And what sort of help did you have around you to cope with that? Cause I don't know how you're meant to cope with something like that, Something that's out of your control.

[D]

I always had people who knew me and loved me. I had studio teachers that were like mentors to me. I had, you know, family members that knew and loved me. And, you know, my family was going through a lot in those years, too, because my mother died, so we were all kind of struggling. And, you know, I was probably going to be an anxious child dealing with, you know, a severe trauma, no matter what, but. And I had a creative outlet. I had creative outlets that were not just acting. So I always loved writing and I had that. I ran away from Hollywood to do community theater and, like, improv and show

[A]

choir was that sort of. Was that a protective mechanism, do you think? Getting out of acting, that was the decision you made?

[D]

My parents were like, you should. Should take some time off now and go to school.

[A]

What age should that happen?

[D]

Probably around middle school, high school. My dad kept saying, you know, go to college, then maybe come back. Maybe you can direct, maybe you can produce, maybe you can do that. And at that point, I was kind of. It's funny, I feel like the same way that people rebel against their families. I was kind of rebelling against film. I was like, fuck film. I'm a theater person. I'm gonna live in New York forever. Yeah. Pure.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And so every now and then people are like, oh, would you be in a movie again? And I'm like, yeah, it was fun. Or if it, you know, was something I really believed in or. Or if it were with friends. Like, I know a lot of people who like to make creative stuff with their friends, but don't necessarily. Yeah, it is. My friends. My friends who work on welcome to Night Vale say, make things you like with people you love and you'll never go wrong completely.

[A]

And they've got your back the whole time as well.

[D]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Do you think in the States or just in the world in general, where we're at now, do you think people are more respectful or less in the way that they treat you when you're out in the wild?

[D]

People don't always recognize me. They used to. It's usually a certain demographic. Like, I remember being on the train when I was in New York, and if, like, a group of girls of a certain age got onto the train and I was, like, not feeling well and didn't want to be photographed, I would get up and move to another car.

[A]

You could see it coming.

[D]

Yeah, I could see it coming, yeah. Like a lot of retail situations, a lot of times people will talk to me, you know, face to face. We have face to face interactions. I'll get people kind of looking at me and. And then I get to play the game of, is this person looking at me because they know me as a person? Is this person looking at me because they recognize me? Is this person checking me out? And it's usually the second one or. But I get a lot of. You look so familiar.

[A]

Yes. Do I tell them or do I just move on?

[D]

Yeah, and I usually just move on unless they ask me. I didn't used to appreciate it, but now it really does. I. Now I'm like, no, this is a nice thing. They appreciated my work, I think. It's also because when you're a child, you know, you did one thing, like, kids will do something one year, and it's kind of like, you know, oh, they took Taekwondo lessons one year, and then, like, two years later, people are like, so, how's Taekwondo? And they're like, what are you even talking about? And that's kind of what it was like for me. Like, people would come up to me, Matilda, and I would be like, I'm in middle school. What are you talking about?

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And funnily enough, in Burbank, there was, like, a hierarchy because there were so many child actors. But I was not one of the cool child actors at school because I was in kids movies. So they were like, you're in baby movies. Oh, all the cool kids are Gap models.

[C]

They're an et. Yeah.

[D]

Like, all the cool kids are. All the cool kids are on, like, you know, I don't know, like, Buffy or weirdly, Seventh Heaven was cool. Even though that is the least cool show that has ever existed.

[A]

That show was terrible show.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That was big in New Zealand when I was a kid.

[C]

Did not age well.

[A]

I age very deep. Very, very.

[D]

For many reasons. It's terrible. And there was a lot of jelly. So there was a lot of, like, assuming, you know, I went to school with Michelle Trachtenberg, and she was really badly bullied because people were like, how fucking dare you be on Buffy? How fucking dare you be on our favorite show?

[A]

Who was she in Buffy?

[D]

She was the sister that gets kind of retconned in. And that's kind of the point is that she doesn't. Yeah. And people were incredibly cruel to her. People would look at me and they would be like. They'd be like, you're a nerd. Why are you in movies looking at

[A]

what friends and colleagues and just people in the world are doing in the world of acting, like, do you think things have improved in the world of child actors? Is there more care in place or is it still chaotic when you look at, like, as you said, the strange things. Kids doing endless junkets.

[D]

Yes and no. Yes. Because people now understand that it is a job. And I think that people just kind of wrote us off as spoiled brats years ago. They were like, oh, these kids are getting everything they ever wanted. They're privileged little shits. Yeah. You're American royalty, basically. And, I mean, we do get a lot of people doing things for us. You know, I did have somebody heating up sunscreen in the microwave before they put it on my face.

[A]

So you Are you are privileged?

[D]

Yes. Like. Like, we were privileged. And it's funny because I met somebody who was a child actor's father recently at a convention, and he was telling me about his kid. He's like, I've noticed that a lot of child actors tend to be very forgetful because there's always somebody telling them what to do. So they never get to work that muscle.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Which if you're as like, ADHD as I am already, like, I'm. I'm, you know, I'm an object at rest that stays at rest unless somebody's like, hey, Mara, you need to get going. Hey, Mara, you need to do your homework. Hey, Mara, we're ready for you. So that wasn't good for me, but it's. That's a different kind of spoiled than getting everything you want. And one thing I'm seeing is people are scapegoating Hollywood and saying, well, all the abusers are in Hollywood. It's evil. And yes, there are abusers in Hollywood. I know people have been sexually harassed, abused by people in power. There's. But I think that that's an institutional thing. I think if you look at, you know, mega churches, if you look at any kind of big religious institution, if you look at schools, if you look at, you know, scouting, if you look at all these kinds of things.

[A]

Yeah. There's going to be pockets where kids are absolutely abused and not treated well

[D]

because predators are drawn to these places where they can have power. And in Hollywood, it's. I have power over this person's dream, over this person's life. So they take over there. And. But, like, I was. My. My. My agent was like a family friend. She was like family to us. We loved her.

[C]

Well, it's such a broad, like, just Hollywood, where, like, it's. That's different if you're on a Daniels movie or you're the kid in adolescence

[A]

or a giant production versus the toddlers.

[C]

Toddlers in tears.

[D]

Well, my parents always wanted me to do movies and not tv. I knew, like, teen stars who would. Couldn't go outside without, like, crowds of girls grabbing their shirts. And a lot of them are like, I don't want anything to do with this anymore. So my parents said, if you're in movies, people will know you for playing different parts. They won't know you for being the same person over and over again and be calling you by that character's name forever. Well, I mean, people do still call me Matilda, but honestly, Matilda's a cool character. So I don't really Mind anymore.

[A]

The best character. It's the best character.

[C]

Do you find it unique to America, like, having gone to other places and how they treat child actors?

[D]

Well, I know that the UK press is pretty brutal. Although I will say that UK fans are shyer. I remember, like, doing things in Liverpool, I think, and, like, people coming up and, like, barely speaking.

[A]

It's the same in New Zealand. Why? We're too shy.

[D]

It's a very commonwealth thing. It's. I mean, it's. Honestly, it's the same reason why I've completely failed to flirt with cute people in the uk. Like, I've tried and it just. No, I can't. I'm too direct for them. They just blush and walk away.

[A]

No. Freak out.

[D]

Yeah, they freak out. What's happened to me? It's happened to me and I'm just like, oh, I have no game here. It's. It's. I can't. I can't just be like, you know, you're cute. And they'll be like, oh, God. Who are you? What are you?

[A]

I'm American.

[D]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

Sorry.

[D]

And I'm Jewish American. I'm even more direct and I used to live in New York, so. Yeah. So there's. Now I'm. I'm a triple threat. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But the celebrity culture there and the. The. The paparazzi there is really bad. I haven't experienced, but it. But I think that they've. They've got a lot of other people. I do think they. That paparazzi has kind of turned their attention away from us. And I think a lot of people find this paparazzi, they find it kind of disgusting, and they've accepted that now.

[A]

There's been a pushback to that culture for sure.

[D]

But I have noticed the fans I met in Latin America were very sincere. And it probably also has to do with the fact that it came out, at least in Colombia, it came out at a time that was very. A very hard time in their history. So it was a movie that they kind of. A lot of the kids there kind of used to escape.

[A]

It was like, escapism. Yeah. That means so much that they found it.

[D]

But I do think that one thing that I wish we could get though is standardized practices across other countries when it comes to child actors. Like, I have a friend who is my studio teacher in Canada because I. We filmed everything in Toronto and Vancouver back in the day, and she says that there, if they have to do really emotional scenes, they have to talk to a therapist. Like, there's an on Set therapist, huh?

[A]

Of course, your brain isn't even fully formed yet as a kid to, like, deal with any of that stuff. Like your frontal lobes, miles away from being done.

[D]

That said, though, I think people worry a lot about kids doing really dramatic scenes and things, but I think the kids are actually better. Better at doing that than adults, because kids still pretend. And acting's not pretending, really, but it is. It is. You know, it's something a little bit more meditative than that. But I. You know, I could shake off doing, like, really dramatic scenes. I could cry, and then I could just go to lunch. As an adult, though, you know, that's. That's where you see, like, actors falling in love on film sets and then realizing, oh, we probably shouldn't have done this. It was just the role, you know, that's really interesting, like, having affairs on

[A]

the film set, pretending.

[D]

My friend Lisa went through this as well, where we had, like. Like, boy characters in movies that were supposed to be in love with us, who actually hated us and were, you know, two years older than us, and we're like, you're an annoying little kid. Get away from me. So that's. That's, you know, kids pretend and kids. And I think. I mean, I don't think I was a great actor as a child, but I think that I was a better actor in some ways as a child because it was easier for me to get vulnerable, whereas now it's harder. It's harder for adults to get vulnerable.

[A]

It's a bit of a hack question, but what's been, like, one of the strangest kind of interactions you've had with a fan or someone that knows your work? They're not necessarily just. Just something that's. That stood out to you.

[D]

Most fans are very nice, I've been told. I have kind of a resting, concerned face. Like, I can look really, like, intense and really deep in thought.

[A]

I think you look thoughtful.

[D]

Yeah, I look thoughtful. And I've had people come up to me and be like, oh, my God, are you okay? You look so sad. Do you want to hug? And I'm like, you know? Or they'll say, like, it must be so hard for you to do these conventions.

[A]

And I'm like, they assume you're looking, like, slightly sad or pensive as opposed to just, you're fine.

[D]

Or somebody said to me at one. They were like. They were like, well, people haven't been. It looks. People haven't been coming to your booth, and, like, you look like you just need a hug. And I was like, if I wanted a hug, I would get it from somebody I know. And it's so funny to see that parasocial thing of, like, well, I'm here, but I'm not like the other ones. It reminds me of, like, men and men going to strip clubs and being like, I'm so sorry for the way that they treat you here.

[A]

You know, you're one of them.

[D]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

You're here.

[D]

You're one of them. You know? And so there was that. Although the creepiest interaction I had was a guy came over and he was on the phone. He's like, I'm calling a friend. My friend wants a photo. And he looks at my photos, and he goes, how old were you in this photo? And I was like, oh, maybe, you know, seven or eight. And he's like, okay, was this your first movie? And I'm like, yeah, he's asking questions, and people just ask those questions sometimes. Then he, like, says something on the phone to his friend and is like, okay, which one were you the youngest in?

[A]

Oh, boy. And Time out.

[D]

Yeah. And I immediately, like, look over to the guys there, and I say the code, but they don't. Because we usually have a code for that means, like, please get rid of this person. And that very rarely happens. But I say the code, and the guy's like, you know, and then. But instead of him telling him to go away, I just basically looked directly at the guy and I said, you need to go. I said, what you're asking is very creepy. And he goes, well, I'm just trying to do a favor for a friend. Yeah. And I think I probably said something like, get some better friends. Or I was just like, it doesn't matter.

[A]

It wasn't his friend on the phone. He was just there talking to nobody.

[D]

I was just like, yeah, this is extremely creepy. And I told him he needed to leave.

[A]

I had a friend that did the convention circuit, and she had been. She had had, like, some different nude roles in films, and someone had screen grabbed all of those shots from all the different productions, made it into a calendar that they had then printed and wanted her to sign it at her signing table. And it's like, what brain are you in? Where, like, that becomes something to do.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, I narrate audiobooks, and I've done some. I've done romance, and I've done some spicy romance, but. But sometimes I look at, like, the guys I know who do spicy romance, and nobody bothers me. Nobody bothers me about doing these books with sex scenes. In them, I'll see some men who do it. And. And I'm just like, oh, you have, like, a really intense following. And I would be. I would be freaked out.

[A]

That's a whole scene.

[D]

Oh, it is. Yeah, it is. The women who do, who do spicy audiobooks, we get ignored. But that's probably a good thing.

[A]

Oh, that's so funny. This weird reversal. Yeah.

[C]

Think he's in rivalry right now, too.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

I do love heated rivalry.

[C]

I know.

[D]

Yeah. But I, I, but I like romance, so, you know, but yeah, but I did notice, like, those guys did. They did like a, like an erotic short story together, I think, on one of these apps. And I was like, I hope that they're okay. I mean, what I do have to say is I'm really glad those guys, like, have each other. Cause I know, like, for me, even just, like, having, like, my friends from Matilda was good for me, which is wild.

[A]

I mean, that says something about the production that you're in and the team you had around you and probably why you do feel safe. Like you're still all friends. Still.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

That's pret. Unique, I imagine.

[D]

Yeah. So, like, Kiami, who played Lavender, and Jackie, who played Amanda Thrip and I will, like, do conventions together or we'll just hang out.

[A]

Cool. It's awesome. What a trip. You wouldn't expect that at the time, like, you're in that you're not, like, I'm going to be friends.

[D]

We're going to be friends. 30 years later, right?

[A]

30 years on. That's insane.

[D]

I look at people who are in stuff like heated rivalry, which is way more intense than being in something like Matilda, and I'm like, well, I hope that they're actually friends. I hope that they're like, I hope that team seem like, stays together as group, that the actors seem like they're friends. And it seems like the director, producer is, like, taking care of them as well. But, but, but this is what I mean when I say it's better and it's worse. It's better because people realize now what people are going through. But also people have so much access. And I have this thing that I call the uncanny valley of relatability, which is basically, people love, like, when an actor is, like, a little bit relatable and is like a little bit human, then at some point they go too far.

[A]

Are.

[D]

And either you find out that they don't share your exact same politics, or they say something really stupid, or, you know, it's like Anne Hathaway or Linwood, Mo Miranda or Jennifer Lawrence, where people just get overexposed and they're tired of them and they're suddenly it, and suddenly they're really mean to them. And it, it go, it goes like this like Julius Caesar crowd scene where everybody loves you and then everybody hates you and there's this drop off point.

[A]

So just little thought exercise. Say, like Rob's kids want to get into acting. What advice would you give to, like, friends, kids who are thinking about this, like, to the kid or to the parents, like, what are the things to kind of look out for? Are you like, yeah, go and do it. Enjoy yourself. Or are you like, do it. But keep this in mind.

[D]

There's a lot that I would ask them to keep in mind. I would say that probably, I think the safest thing to do is to do like one or two projects, make money that you can put aside for college or like travel or whatever when you're older and have it be like a fun experience, like make scrapbooks of it, which is what me and my family did, because we thought it was just gonna be fun. So, you know, I still have like a, you know, book of photos and Polaroids of when I was in Doubtfire.

[A]

But not like, this must be your life.

[C]

No, he had a career at this age.

[D]

Yeah. Well, I also say to people this is kind of brutal. I say a lot of people want their kids to be stars, but you're not. You're. Are you? Do you want your kid to be a has been? Because they're going to be accused of being a has been and they're gonna be accused of being a has been when they're like 13.

[A]

Yeah. Which is insane. Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

I think people say things to me like, oh, how does it feel to know you peaked? And also they shouldn't do it if they want to get famous, because being famous is something that's really hard. I mean, it's easier to do than it used to, but it's. You probably will never be famous enough and. Or you will be and then you'll hate it.

[A]

Yeah, but that's your reason for doing it. You're not going to be happy. That's not going to lead to a happy life.

[D]

Terrible idea. I say, I say to people, try to stick to theater and stick to performing in that way. Stick to having a connection with an audience. Because with theater, like, I know a lot of people who will say things like, I would never do a nude scene in a movie, but I would in theater. Because, you know, there's a contract sort of with an audience. You know, it's a. It's an ephemeral thing versus like anybody being able to print out the images

[A]

and make a calendar out to like a cut on YouTube, whatever. A calendar, exactly.

[D]

Yeah. So try to imagine how happy you were when you were first performing. And it was usually for your family or like at church or something like that. And then think, if you could only ever have that audience, would you still be happy? Happy. And if it's yes, then you're doing it for the love of the game. And also, yeah, don't ever push your kids. If it gets to be too hard for your kids, get them out of it immediately. Be constantly checking in with them.

[A]

What if they're making lots and lots of millions of dollars?

[D]

I mean, that's the thing, though. Brooke Shields talked about this in her memoir. Her mother was an alcoholic. And not only were they making a lot of money and like living better, but also she felt like film sets were so regimented that they were the place she felt safest. And her mom was kind of at her best. And I saw a lot of that as well. I saw a lot of addict parents. And film sets are very, very regimented places. So, yeah, I, I think that. And it can be a really great experience, but I know a lot of people who. For whom it was sort of just like a one time thing. They acted in one movie and then they were like, nope, I'm gonna go back to school, I'm gonna be myself, I'm gonna do other things. And I wish we could do that. I think, I wish more people would do that. And like I said, I do wish it was standardized across countries because I do think child acting in Canada is different than acting in the US which is different than acting in the uk, which is different than acting in New Zealand, which is different than, you know, it's, it's really, it's very different. And I wish we had more of a standardized thing. I mean, we do have a former child actor as the SAG president now, so maybe we'll see more standardization of things. Yeah. Sean Astin.

[A]

No way. Who seems lovely.

[C]

Lord of the Rings.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, he was. Well, he was in Goonies, you know, he was a child actor and he came from a family of actors and

[A]

he seems to have turned out great. Like, he seems like the loveliest human on the planet.

[D]

I've met him before and he's a very nice guy. Yeah, he is.

[A]

No, I think it's a really interesting take, though. And Good to hear that. It's, it's. Obviously there's badness everywhere with kids. Whether it is an organized group, it is corrupt. But it's not just Hollywood.

[D]

It's an institution. It's a business. It's, it's, it's, it's capitalist above all else. And it's not immoral. It's amoral.

[C]

Well. And the audience that's consuming it, they

[D]

never look at themselves. And that drives me crazy.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Because I'm saying over and over again, you know what? You guys were the ones who, who gave me the most problem. Problems. And they don't realize that.

[A]

If we're going to direct our audience to something that you have made or done recently, where would you like people to go?

[D]

I wrote an article for the Guardian recently about the Guardian us about child sexual abuse materials and AI where I've talked a lot about how so many children now may be forced to live my nightmare of, you know, being photoshopped or being, you know, AI being made into, you know, child sexual abuse materials. And what I think we can do to advocate against that and you know, what we can do legally, what we can do politically, what we can do socially to fight against that, that's something that is very important to me.

[A]

Thank you, Mara.

[D]

You're very welcome.

[A]

Yeah, Mara's great. Love her. Freaking awesome.

[C]

Calvin recently discovered Matilda.

[A]

No way.

[C]

And it was fun.

[A]

It still hits.

[C]

Still hits.

[A]

She's so good at. Yeah.

[C]

That was such a fun kids movie.

[A]

And this is like Mrs. Trunchbull. Yeah, until. Yeah, until Roosevelt brought that up. I forgot about that whole character. But like it's like perfect because every kid. It's so relatable.

[C]

This is going to sound bad because I don't think.

[A]

Roll with it.

[C]

My favorite.

[A]

Whenever you think this is going to sound bad, I like to just say it's what we all men should do.

[C]

No, no. I just, I related to her. I felt like my family treated me like her family did when I was a kid. Which is a very dramatic take on it. Cuz they definitely did. Not much.

[A]

We the youngest.

[C]

No, I was the second youngest, but I was like the black sheep of the four children. I was like the weird kid that was into music and art that they thought I was like on drugs because I wasn't going to church.

[A]

Were you more like Macaulay Culkin in Home Alone or Matilda and Matilda? Who did you identify with more?

[C]

I mean, I think family wise was very much more Home Alone and identified with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But it like was still in that same realm, like. But her parents and Matilda were terrible.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Which I. Yeah, looking back, I had great parents.

[A]

Yeah. Just to be clear, did you have a Miss Trunchbull type character at school or in your childhood?

[C]

Yes, I did.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, you go for first. Yeah.

[C]

I had a teacher that, like, she grabbed me by the ear or the neck. That's so dramatic point.

[A]

Just to sort of, like, tell you off, sort of shake you. Shake you around a bit or like, to lead you somewhere.

[C]

I had, like, done. Did something she didn't like with one of my friends. I don't know if she thought we were getting in, like, a fight or something. And she, like, grabbed me, like, very hard. I think she grabbed me really hard on the arm. It was the vice principal at my elementary school.

[A]

We. The teacher who made the. I was terrified of her. It didn't help that I'd been homeschooled Till I was 11. And so I went into school for the first time when I was 11, suddenly had other kids in my class and was getting kind of told off for the first time because Mummy never told me off when I was being homeschooled. Mummy.

[C]

Mummy.

[A]

She didn't, though, but didn't call her Mummy.

[C]

Now you do, but you did not.

[A]

It. There was one teacher, our art teacher, Mrs. Denny. She was mean, and I wasn't great at art. And I certainly didn't get motivated to keep trying it out in her class.

[C]

From someone being mean to you?

[A]

From someone being mean to me. But she. I just always remember. And she didn't just say this to me, but it stuck with me. And I fucking love this because I'll always say it to people and they apologize. Especially after, like, a really, like, horrific argument. She'd say, if you were sorry, you wouldn't have done it in the first place. And it's. Whenever someone apologizes to me for something or I hear someone apologizing to someone, I'll always interject with that most annoying statement. Nonsensical bullshit you could ever say.

[C]

I had a similar teacher, mean junior high teacher. He would say, don't be sorry. Be correct.

[A]

Christ.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you think these teachers, when they say that, they think they've got a great line and they just love roasting kids with this dumb bo.

[C]

It's stuck.

[A]

It's stuck with us.

[C]

Words of wisdom.

[A]

Have you ever been tempted to say that to your kids?

[C]

No, but that. It's still, like, in my brain.

[A]

It sits right. Yeah. Okay. Just while I was thinking about this topic of Child stars Haim and Corey Feldman came to mind. The two Coreys, I kind of missed out on this at the time. But I know Corey from. Was it Haim from Stand By Me who wasn't Stand By Me? It was Corey. Corey. Amazing coming of age film. Stephen King. Corey ended up going on and having, like, a fairly horrific kind of music career. Like, he's still performing.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Haim died from pneumonia in, like 2010. He had, like, massive addiction problems. But I always think of those two brothers when I think of, like, famous too early and things just kind of going off the rails later. And Drew Barrymore, I forgot, was in rehab when she was sort of 13, 14, because she would just. She got too famous too soon, I guess from ET Was the thing that, like, made her huge, like the biggest movie of the 80s.

[C]

I think that generation was one ahead of me.

[A]

Right, right. Calling me old. I'm nearing 50s, you know.

[C]

But I do think it was a lot harder.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I think a lot of people had a hard time time escaping that. And the was more rare to have those stories where you've got the, like, Fred Savage from Wonder Years and the Boy Meets World cast. Like, I think they've all kind of gotten through it. And I think what happened in the 80s and prior to that, like, was maybe a little more of a cautionary tale. And yes, as you went into the

[A]

90s and yeah, there was no.

[C]

They gave them a little more care.

[A]

Yeah. Because there was no duty of care. Right. And like, there was no. And I guess you're around that a lot of probably parents as well, just like, wanted to extract the cash from their kids as well. And it was just all a bit feral.

[C]

I can't imagine if, like, we're progressing to being a more positive thing, like, how much more up it was in, like, the 40s and 50s and 60s. Child stars.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Which speaking of child stars, I went in and I saw Cat Power last night at the Orpheum.

[A]

Good show.

[C]

Great show.

[A]

Yeah. Cool. I've never seen them.

[C]

Her voice is incredible. And sitting in front of me was Haley Joel Osmond.

[A]

I see dead people from the Sixth Sense.

[C]

And he, I feel like, is a success story of a totally star.

[A]

Yeah. He pops up in a bunch of stuff and he's hilarious and iconic and a whole other thing.

[C]

Yeah. It's cool when you see people from that generation and they're like, just doing cool things because they can now completely.

[A]

I don't know why this just popped into my head, but didn't. Saved by the Bell Was like a very big thing in my childhood. And Screech. He went into pornography.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And I believe he's passed away. Right.

[C]

Dustin Diamond.

[A]

What happened to him? I'm just curious because was that a. He had a professional wrestling career. Did not know he got into wrestling. There was a sex tape at some point, bar altercation. He was convicted of two misdemeanors. Carrying concealed weapon and disorderly conduct in 2015. Four months jail. And then he got small cell carcinoma of the lungs. Had to have chemo. Oh, awful. Died from. Yeah, died from cancer February 1, 2021.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, I think what really stood out from what Mara was talking about, which seems obvious, but wasn't the first thing I thought about with child stars, was that, like, press and the public really have a lot to do with why it can go sideways.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What happens? One thing. You make it off a set unscathed and protected and with good people around you, which hopefully most the time that is the case. But then just like your brains are developing as at that age and just all that attention has just gotta fuck with you so much.

[A]

And I guess there's that added element we're living through now where fame can happen in a very small setting. At home, if you're on TikTok and you become huge or YouTube.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then dealing with the fame that comes from that is this whole other thing. It's like the levels of fame when your brain isn't fully formed. I mean, it's hard enough as an adult. Like, I find it hard if, like, people say shit about me. I find it, like, still affects me. I can't imagine being like a kid and having to deal with that and when you actually. Big. Big and prominent. Holy shit.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like that whole world is.

[C]

Yeah. Like, I think she mentioned too, like, it's just really important that you have a support system and people around you that can help protect you. If not everyone has that totally.

[A]

And.

[C]

And not everyone's as lucky to have that.

[A]

And I think also kids are bad sometimes at communicating. Like a kid seems happy and fine. They sometimes don't know how to communicate how awful shit is as well. So I think having parents and caregivers around that actually can take an active look and actually check that the kids are okay. Okay. Are you ready for some feedback? Cause there's a fuck ton.

[C]

Yes. Feedback. I do want to say I did first get Real Monsters.

[A]

You're the second we stop recording. Yeah. Real Monsters.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Damn it.

[C]

Which I loved that show same. The cartoon from that was one of the first times in art class that I realized you could draw cartoons and just, like, replicate.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Them like that. That was one of the first, like, drawings I did that made me fall in love with art.

[A]

That little. That little stumpy guy that held his eye.

[C]

Yeah, I had. I drew that guy and his, like, very fond memory. I. I think maybe I. Yeah, I just missed that one.

[A]

You bastard. Yeah.

[C]

Hey, dude was another one I missed that. I did love a lot. That was like, same era salute your shorts.

[A]

A lot of people wrote in about that.

[C]

Hey, dude was great. People love that show like a ranch and then just Snick as a whole, which was Saturday night Nickelodeon.

[A]

Snick.

[C]

Snick was like 8pm to 10pm Nickelodeon for, like, older kids.

[A]

Oh, and spookier. Or like, more like are you for

[C]

the dark was on that. All that Keenan and Kel Run and Stimpy. It was older kids TGIF for Nickelodeon.

[A]

Okay. I mean, I was. I couldn't believe you left that stuff off. I mean, I was. I was shocked at that. I was really stunned by the number of people that wrote in saying that they, too, love Patty Mayonnaise. Like, people. A lot of people. First character they fell in love with. Found an attraction to a few people as well. Sent in photos of their dogs who were named Patty Mayonnaise. And they kind of do look like Patty Mayonnaise. Look at these little dogs. People still writing in a lot about Hooters. Of course, Annette wrote in from New Zealand, saying, in the mid-2010s, there was a couple in Hamilton, New Zealand. And if you know New Zealand, Hamilton is perfect place for this to happen. Opened an establishment called Jugs. Do you know what Jugs are?

[C]

No.

[A]

Jugs. I guess, like jugs of beer, too big breasts. That was based off Hooters. Their tagline was cold jugs and hot racks. It didn't take off and didn't expand beyond Hammer Morton.

[C]

But they tried racks of lamb and, like, ribs.

[A]

I guess so. Yeah. So there was a Hooters wannabe in New Zealand and it failed miserably. I thought this was interesting. I didn't think about it. I spoke about a massage I had and I think I called. What did I say? Masseuse. What did I say? I can't remember what I called them. Chrissy said, a woman is a masseuse. A man is a masseur. Today the person, though, giving massages is called a massage therapy. And that's the way we talk about them. I thought that was interesting message therapist.

[C]

I did We. I don't think we connected the dots when we recorded that episode. But you basically were objectified when you went to be massaged.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And we did not connect the dots to how much we were trying to tiptoe around objectification woman. And just, just the juxtaposition of that was funny. But it also just is perfect. What society is where.

[A]

Absolutely perfect. Yeah. Jay wrote in saying one iconic moment in US history was missed. I was completely unaware of this until my girlfriend mentioned having flown on Hooters airlines multiple times. You sent me a picture after the episode as well. Rob of the plane. Just a Hooters plane. Unbelievable.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

So, yeah, I just want to say. No, there was a. Of course there was a Hooters airline and yeah, the staff on on board wore similar outfits to what they wear in the restaurants.

[C]

I don't think I would feel comfortable flying on a Hooters plane.

[A]

No, no, me either. I just. I don't want to fly on a plane that is sort of has like a wacky name in any way.

[C]

No.

[A]

I want it to be dead fucking serious when I'm flying. Yeah. I don't want any kind of pageantry.

[C]

No.

[A]

At all. Dan wrote in. I thought this was fascinating. It's far too long. But I'm going to just zip this through. I've been a food scientist working in product R and D for most of my career. But I worked at a small consulting group right out of college that helped restaurants with their menu innovation. Essentially, my job was to help use consumer trend data to help chain restaurants keep their menus fresh. As part of this job, I was assigned to a project with Hooters. My experience working with Hooters team was somehow shocking and completely expected. It was a roller coaster. My boss and I arrived at the Atlanta headquarters fresh from the airport, where naturally I asked if I could use a restaurant room. After checking in at the front desk, which is where the fun began, I was pointed down a corridor where there were two doors. One labelled standing proud over the silhouette of a man with his hands on his hips and one labeled sitting pretty with a silhouette of a woman in an almost Marilyn Monroe esque stance. I rolled my eyes. They had a tour. They went to the test kitchen, met a few people along the way. On one side of the office there were offices for a few executives with secretary desks. Outside of of them it felt very Mad Men and outdated. But I didn't think anything of it until we were introduced to one of them who rattled off an intro which included her pointing down to an old photo of herself in the classic Hooters uniform. The executive team all had former Hooters girls as their secretaries say. This is all allegedly. Yeah, I do believe this guy. And they all proudly had framed pictures of themselves. As one of them put it in their. Yeah, so it just goes on and on. And I'll just say, like, who does hq? Just sounds like exactly what you would think who does HQ is, But to, like, a comical degree. Yeah. Okay. Jake said, Kiwi here. Nostalgic. Listen, Nickelodeon. There was Nickelodeon. You could pay for the network, but it came much after I was a kid on Sky TV, which made me feel old on Sky TV. Sometimes the feedback does make me feel closer to 50. Okay, this was interesting. Interesting. Kate said, fun fact about the Rugrats is that one of the main characters, Chucky, was growing up with a single dad after his mum died.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Chucky's sad dad frequently cited. He starts, like, dating at some point in the show.

[A]

Right. Really?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's frequently cited as one of the earliest cartoons to depict this. And a lot of kids, including myself, appreciated having this representation.

[C]

Yeah. There was a lot of feedback, too, about the Passover episode of Rugrats and how that's where a lot of people learned.

[A]

Learned, ah, what? Passover.

[C]

About Passover.

[A]

That's cool.

[C]

They celebrate Passover.

[A]

I want to know if you knew about this. Rob AJ Said Rocco from Rocco's Modern Life was a phone sex operator.

[C]

I I. That vaguely sounds familiar. I don't think it was a sex operator.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

But I think he was a phone operator as a kid.

[A]

I always found it funny. He would say in a very monotone voice, oh, baby, oh, baby, oh, baby, while seated in a cubicle for work. Do you have memories of this?

[C]

I mean, we gotta Google this now.

[A]

This seems kind of outrageous.

[C]

I, I have vague memories.

[A]

Baby, baby, baby. It does sound like a sex line.

[C]

It's weird too, because as a kid, you're not clocking those types of references or jokes. So it was just like answering phones.

[A]

And he's so people also ask on Google, is Rocco a six phone operator? It was implied in his brief stint as a telephone operation operator in the season one episode Canned, where an instruction sheet notes employees to be hot, be naughty, and be courteous. And he flatly repeats oh baby into the receiver. So, yeah, it seems like quite a

[C]

wild thing to predict.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like it's not subtle. Oh, baby, oh, baby, oh, baby, Mrs. Big Head. That's the gag. And Rocco has a book on his desk called Specialty Phone operator. Yeah, it's quite naughty, isn't it?

[C]

But it's subtle enough and like PG enough that a kid's. It's gonna totally go over a kid's head.

[A]

Yeah. Rocco wasn't like, fuck me now. Like, ban me over on all fours and fuck me. You know. It wasn't like that.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Kapil said. Love the trip down memory lane, that one. Are you afraid in the dark episode with the pool, which we talked about. Yeah. Seems universally the scariest one. It's the only one I remember, in fact. And every time that show comes up with friends, it's the episod they all mention as well. I love the idea of one episode of a TV show just traumatizing a generation. Traumatizing, like a generation of kids.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just wonder if the creators knew that they had made something particularly off putting or they just hadn't tested it on a crowd. And like, pools are just this universal horror that we have.

[C]

I mean, the intro to that show was so scary too. Like, I remember covering my head when the swings would come on and like, yeah, the wagon.

[A]

Scary shit.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of people wrote in about Avatar the Last Airbender being an amazing animated show, not to be confused with the remake that M. Night Shyamalan did.

[C]

Second M. Night Shyamalan reference it is Mal said.

[A]

As a self proclaimed 90s Nick expert, I had to throw in a few facts you may have missed. Donnie in the Wild Thornberry. Yes.

[C]

Was not important.

[A]

He was not Eliza's biological brother. They found him. He'd been raised by monkeys out in the jungle. He's also voiced by Flea of the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

[C]

Yes, I saw that. Which is incredible.

[A]

Flea seems like a good guy out of all of them. Sort of. Not a Red Hot Chili Peppers guy, but Flea seems like mildly interesting to me. Yeah, he's acted in some stuff. And the dad, Nigel, is voiced by the great Tim Curry. Iconic actor Angela said. And I included her email because a lot of people wrote in about that show you mentioned. Hey, hey, dude.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Hey, dude. Huge live action series ran for five seasons. Followed a group of teenagers spending their summer working on a dude ranch. Intrinsically quite funny. What is a dude ranch? Like, they say this so casually, dude ranch. Like it's something that. What is a dude ranch?

[C]

Just, I don't know. You have to look that up too.

[A]

Dude ranch. I assume it's like cowboys and. Yeah, just a lot of dudes.

[C]

I do like vividly remember the artwork of that show though.

[A]

A guest ranch also known as a dude ranch is a type of ranch orientated towards visitors or tourism. So dude ranch doesn't have to be dudes. It's more just touristy. There's a bunch of things. Reviews for dude ranch this, dude ranch that. So Wikipedia Guest ranch, also known as a dude ranch for two years. Just a ranch. Quite a weird thing to call it. Yeah. Massive Wikipedia page about dude ranches. Maybe it should be a topic. Okay. Oh yeah, it was one more bit of the story that I found in. Interesting. One of the cast members, Joe Tors or Torres quit acting and disappeared from the public eye immediately after the show. Hey dude ended. Over the years, several cast members tried unsuccessfully to reach him, which sparked rumors that he might be missing or even dead. Spoiler alert. He was alive and well the whole time. He simply had no interest in remaining in the public eye. Good reference to what this whole episode was kind of about. Anticlimactic maybe, But I remember this being one of the earliest Internet fueled conspiracy theories that I closely followed. Thank you Angela. If you have feedback on anything in this episode, I got something wrong. Maybe I stated my age incorrectly again. Maybe Rob left off something from a slideshow that he did. Flightthesperechatmail.com we have tickets for our three live shows coming up end of March, April. You can find those in the show notes or over our Instagram page. They are in the links there as well. Anything else? I think that's us. That's us. And yeah, we have Patreon bonus episodes every week. Patreon.com Flight this bird and we will see you next week.

[C]

See you next week.