ICE Kidnaps A Kiwi

Summary

Flightless Bird: "ICE Kidnaps a Kiwi"

Podcast: Flightless Bird
Host: David Farrier (B), with cohost Rob (D)
Episode Date: April 28, 2026
Main Theme: The story of Evalie Wehonge, a New Zealand woman and longtime U.S. resident, who was detained by ICE at LAX despite holding a green card. The episode explores the continued existence and practices of ICE, the normalization of such detentions in the U.S., and the impact on immigrants and their families.

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Episode Overview

This week’s Flightless Bird delves into a troubling, real-world account: Kiwi (New Zealander) Evalie Wehonge, who has lived most of her life in Wisconsin, was unexpectedly detained by ICE upon returning to the United States. Host David Farrier uses Evalie’s story to examine wider patterns of ICE activity, the often arbitrary and cruel nature of the U.S. immigration system, and how these issues become ignored or normalized both in America and abroad.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Changing Face but Unchanging Reality of ICE

• Opening Tone: David and Hayden (A) discuss the often-overlooked persistence of ICE detentions, even after high-profile changes in leadership and news cycles fade.
  • “...they have this secret police, and for a while, they were just murdering people straight up in the streets. And when everyone was like, that's a bit much, but now they're just doing a kind of toned down version of that...” (A, 01:15)
  • “I think there's this idea that ice is kind of done. But, of course, it's all still ongoing." (B, 00:55)
• Normalization: Systemic abuses become normalized and overlooked because, as discussed, “anything that's happening within the system kind of has to be normal because that system [is the] system we live in…” (A, 02:20)

2. Evalie’s Story: Detention at LAX

• Background: Evalie, 36, moved to Wisconsin from New Zealand at age 6. She’s a green-card holder, her family are citizens.
• The Airport Incident ([10:18-16:48]):
  • Returning after a family trip to New Zealand, Evalie was pulled aside at immigration. The family watched her get walked away by agents.
  • Officially, she was detained for "having too many green cards" due to her card being stolen, address confusion, and administrative repeat applications. All properly documented.
  • “What had happened was she had renewed her card, but her bag was stolen... So she had, like, maybe two or three cards, and that's what flagged their interest.” (Evalie’s Mum, Betty (C), 15:05)
• Escalation:
  • Agents cited an old, fully-resolved marijuana possession charge from 2014—something previously addressed in court.
  • “They said, did you go and see an immigration judge? And she goes, no, I didn’t know that I had to… We’re from Wisconsin. I don’t think my attorney knows.” (C, 17:42)

3. Detention Conditions and Family Ordeal ([27:29-35:10])

• Inside the Facility:
  • Evalie is held in a cell with 46 women, allowed outside only twice daily, described as full of bugs, little privacy, and minimal resources.
  • “She’s the only one in that facility with a green card. Everyone else are like on work visas or undocumented.” (C, 28:32)
• Bureaucratic Black Hole:
  • She has no formal accusations and limited access to her own documentation. Family must navigate byzantine procedures for legal help and money transfers, all while being charged fees.
  • “It's just like a huge money making operation, I feel.” (C, 32:51)

4. Humanity Inside the System

• Resilience and Kindness:
  • Evalie found solace in sharing with other detainees; group meals, makeshift celebrations, acts of kindness amongst people “stripped of everything.”
  • “On Sunday, everyone pulls whatever they have from commissary together, and they make a Sunday meal... very sweet.” (C, 31:53)
• Cruelty in Administration:
  • Agents pressured Evalie to sign papers without reading them, threatened her compliance, and acted arbitrarily.
  • “When she went to read it, the border patrol guy got agitated… he ripped it out of her hands.” (C, 19:19)

5. Wider Implications and Systemic Issues ([36:00–45:00+])

• Legal Limbo: Even the hired lawyer was baffled why Evalie was detained this long for an old, minor charge: “He just said that his first goal is to get her out of the facility and then after that he'll work with going to the immigration judge…” (C, 36:56)
• Consequences:
  • Family members on green cards express fear about remaining in the U.S.; possibility of “self-deportation” is raised as a desired outcome by authorities.
  • “They want people that aren't white to self deport.” (D, 42:34)
• Racism and Targeting:
  • David and Rob bluntly address how Evalie’s experience is shaped by her race and the system’s implicit bias:
    • “An elephant in the room, like Evalie is brown, she’s not white. Like that’s why she got targeted. Like let’s not... be mealy mouthed about this.” (B, 42:46)

6. Family History & Belonging in America ([46:51–51:57])

• Evalie’s Roots:
  • Her family’s ancestry traces to the Cook Islands and America, with relatives who fought in WWII; a poignant message from her aunt underlines this.
    • “Evalie can whakapapa to America. She is connected to America by blood ... Our family history in the USA traces back further than that of the Trumps. And to that, I say, fuck Trump and fuck ICE. Love you, Evalie.” (From Aunt Jen’s message, 49:16)
• Arbitrary Exclusion:
  • Despite deep ties, bureaucratic lines and racial biases determine belonging.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Systemic Normalization:

• “It's just the way of thing.” (A, 01:15)

On Bureaucratic Hostility:

• “When she went to read it, the border patrol guy got agitated and said, you don't have to read it...and he ripped it out of her hands.” (C, 19:19)
• “Sounds like an incredibly strong human, but you can only take so much, right?” (B, 20:32)

On Kindness Amid Cruelty:

• “There’s a lot of kindness in there from other people.” (C, 32:34)

On Belonging:

• “Evalie can whakapapa to America. She is connected to America by blood ... Our family history in the USA traces back further than that of the Trumps. And to that, I say, fuck Trump and fuck ICE. Love you, Evalie.” (Aunt Jen, read by B, 49:16)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:55 – ICE’s continued activities & normalization of abuses
• 10:18 – Intro to Evalie’s case, the airport incident recap
• 15:05 – Details of Evalie’s green card situation and paperwork issues
• 17:42 – Old marijuana charge unexpectedly triggers ICE detention
• 27:29 – Life and conditions inside the detention facility
• 31:53 – Detainee solidarity and small acts of resilience
• 36:05 – Legal confusions and uncharted territory even for lawyers
• 42:46 – Explicit discussion of racism and “self-deportation” tactics
• 49:16 – Aunt Jen’s powerful message: family’s American roots, anti-ICE statement
• 51:57 – Reflecting on the cost, uncertainty for green card holders
• 52:19+ – Listener feedback and lighter Wisconsin-themed closing

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Tone and Atmosphere

• Language: Frank, sometimes darkly humorous, occasionally profane; emotionally authentic, supportive of those affected.
• Approach: David remains curious, empathetic, and incisive, balancing outrage with a journalist’s eye for the system’s mundane absurdities.

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Conclusion

This episode of Flightless Bird offers a harrowing but human perspective on U.S. immigration detention, spotlighting how administrative missteps and old misdemeanors can upend lives—especially for immigrants of color, no matter their ties to the country. Evalie’s ordeal is not isolated, but emblematic of a larger, ongoing struggle. The episode ends with a call for attention, support, and compassion—highlighting the resiliency of those caught up in these systems and the ongoing need to report and bear witness.

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Further Action

• Support: Info on contributing to Evalie’s legal fund is mentioned in the show notes.
• Feedback: Listeners are encouraged to write in; updates on Evalie’s case will continue on the podcast and David’s "Webworm" newsletter.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey, man.

[B]

Hi, Hayden. My little cheeky night cheese.

[A]

Ah, that's personalized. I have night cheese. Thank you.

[B]

You do. And now you're my night cheese.

[A]

Don't like that. Don't like that. I don't like being the little scrumptious smack you have before drifting off to sleep.

[B]

I've got some big news. You and I, we've won a Webby. We won a Webby award.

[A]

Us together, won the Webby Award.

[B]

Yeah. Best indie podcast for Flightless Bird.

[A]

Yeah. I always. I always thought we were the best indie podcast. Us two together.

[B]

Now, I don't know how to do this incredibly hard pivot right now, but today's episode of Flightless Bird, it's a little bit more serious. We're looking at the story of Evely, who's a New Zealand woman who got snatched by ICE at lax, which is fucking bizarre and crazy, and I think more people need to know about it. And it kind of made me think, you know, the news cycle goes on, and I think there's this idea that ice is kind of done. But of course, it's all still ongoing. And I'm curious if over in New Zealand you're kind of aware of this stuff or if it's kind of completely drifted off the radar.

[A]

Definitely off the radar. And it kind of. You kind of get the feeling like it's a bit off the radar. In the United States, you know, they have this secret police, and for a while, they were just murdering people straight up in the streets. And when everyone was like, that's a bit much, but now they're just doing a kind of toned down version of that, and everyone's like, oh, well, that's all right. Then. They're just kind of abducting people with green cards in the airport now. That's normal. And they're just putting sort of people, most of whom are brown, in cages. And that's just what America does. So that's all right. When really you do still have a secret police operating with impunity within your country in a way that you would probably frown upon if it was happening anywhere else. Be like, restored democracy to Iran if it was happening there, but no, it's happening in the States. So they're just like, this is. This is just the way of thing.

[B]

Yeah, it's pretty fucking weird, isn't it? And to think that the people that killed Alex Pretty are just wandering around and probably still on the payroll. It's so weird.

[A]

That's what gets me. They were just like, oh, we've redeployed them. And you'll never find out who they were.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

They were just mass. You just have mass police. That's a plot point in the, in the TV show Watchmen, right. Where they have white mass police. And it's a sign of this breakdown of society. It just really happened in the United States and we all kind of went on and I was thinking about this, like, why is it that we are just so all right with it? And I think it's because no one brings down the system and it all happens within the system and anything that's happening within the system kind of has to be normal because that system, system we live in and so it kind of automatically gets normalized and, and what can you do about it? Oh, you can vote, but the Democrats are kind of insipid. Or you can protest, but then you just get tear gassed and told to go inside again. I wonder if this is why, like the Luigi Manioni of the world. And I don't want to endorse killing people in the streets on your podcast, but I wonder why, if the response to that was so great because is someone that's really reacting to this bizarre fascistic system in the most extremely extreme way that it seems to deserve.

[B]

Yeah, well, I think, yeah, most of us kind of limp on with our lives. And also there's this thing where everyone is just trying to survive on their own terms. Right. And just like making up money to feed their families. And it's so hard to break through, as you say, the system which just envelops everything all the time.

[A]

Yeah. And people are just so tired and so they revert to these everyday kindnesses which is like absolutely the lifeblood of society. You know, just helping out your neighbor. And that's a great thing to do. But it means that the system itself kind of operates unfettered in the background. Punishing.

[B]

Yeah. Thanks, my cheeky night. Cheese. Another uplifting conversation. Always good. Hayden.

[A]

Hey, sweet. Nice to speak to you again, Dave.

[B]

As I mentioned to Hayden, today's episode is about Evalie Wehonge, a 36 year old New Zealand woman who was snatched by ICE from LAX Airport earlier this month. Normally, when not in a nice detention center, Evalie lives in Wisconsin, home of cheese and cheeseheads. She's lived there for some time, working as a welder. Now, Evalie's family moved to Wisconsin when she was just six years old. So it's where she's grown up. Evalie has a green card and her and her family have happily come back and forth from New Zealand for years to see friends and relatives and to stay connected to their roots. Last week, Evalie and her family, which includes her mum, Betty, were returning from New Zealand when Evalie got pulled aside, eventually whisked away to an ICE detention center with no official explanation about why she was being sent there. As I read this introduction on April 22, she's in a cell with 46 other people with no idea what the fuck is going on. This seems like it's worth talking about. Why? I mean, look, to state the obvious, this jumps out at me because I'm also here from New Zealand. I go back and forth. So I wanted to dive into this whole thing further. So prepare to pick up your luggage from the carousel. But, oh, wait, who's that? It's a bunch of ICE agents coming to abduct you. So I guess your luggage will have to wait because this is the ICE Kidnaps a Kiwi episode.

[C]

Flagness. Flagless, flagless bird Touchdown in America.

[B]

I'm a fly.

[C]

This bird touchdown in America.

[B]

Hi, Rob.

[D]

Hey, David.

[B]

I texted you a couple of days ago, and I said, I think we should change our plan. We're going to do another Wisconsin episode.

[D]

Yeah. People were probably very excited about another Wisconsin episode.

[B]

And, I mean, technically, this kind of is because Everly lives in Wisconsin, which is crazy.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Like, it's kind of weird. So this is the unofficial second and now a trilogy of episodes set in Wisconsin.

[D]

Okay. I can.

[B]

Which is a trick.

[D]

I can get behind your logic on that one.

[B]

Yeah. This story sort of blows my mind in a way, and I want to get stuck into it.

[D]

Hayden made a good point in his call that it kind of feels like nothing's being reported about ICE anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Which is kind of what I am afraid of. Every time there's a change and the administration and, like, someone is fired and they bring someone in. They're only fired because publicly, like, they've been a buffoon.

[B]

Yeah. They've stretched things slightly too far.

[D]

Yes. Like Greg Bevino. And these people are ousted. And it's not like they're changing what the criteria for who they want to fill that position is. They're just probably being smarter about who they hire and picking someone that's able to do it in a more discreet way.

[B]

Because that Greg Bevino being let go, that was a headline everywhere.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And everyone, including myself, kind of felt this idea of like, oh, my God, something's changing.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And he was such a face of everything with his stupid little shaved side of his head, his Little Nazi trench coat, all of that stuff. And you see that headline and it's like, relief. And then there's so much noise going on. Yeah. The temptation is to think it's chill.

[D]

Yeah. It's Kristi Noem. It's. It's.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I'm not going to say. I'm going to say the other one that's happening now because he's just suing everyone.

[B]

Yeah. I think a cool 250 million director of the FBI. I mean, oh, my God. Watching his press conferences recently, he's just doing a Trump. Right. He, he. Instead of answering a question, he'll just go to, I'm not talking to you. Fake news media. It's all fake. Right.

[D]

There's no way he can properly do his job of. He's having press conferences about these things and litigation and then court and like.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

It's a. It's an important role that needs to be filled with someone competent.

[B]

Yeah. Someone who's not getting pissed all the time, you know, on the job and like celebrating with Olympians being a fucking nut bar. Anyway, this story jumped out at me and maybe we should just get into the heart of what this episode is going to be about. Some quick stats at the top. Um, as of April, which we're in, currently, There are approximately 68,000 to 73,3000 individuals in ICE custody, which is a decent amount just sitting there, just waiting. It's nearly double population from a year ago.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing that you keep hearing stories about these detention centers. Oh, and the conditions in the detention center and people getting sick, people dying in them.

[B]

Oh, there's sexual assault, there's rape, dying.

[D]

No coverage like there. There was a story at one point that was supposed to come out but then got pulled.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Does seem like we don't have the full picture of what's actually happening.

[B]

Yeah, completely. And there are report. There is reports around stories from the inside, but they're so few and far between. In amongst all the other insane coverage, like Trump tweeting an image of him as Jesus, which creates a headline all around the world.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But getting information about what's happening in ICE detention centres, it seems to be like bottom of the agenda.

[D]

Yeah. And the ethics around it seem problematic.

[B]

Incredibly so. Okay. So earlier this week, I interviewed Evaligh's mum, Betty Wihongi, for Webworm, my journalism newsletter I've been writing about twice a week now for the last six years. So for any Webworm readers listening to this, you'll be intimately aware of this story already. Thank you for allowing me to tell it in the first place. I wanted to address the story on this podcast as well, because I think this is really, really important. And so I'm just going to play the conversation I had with Evely's mum, Betty, a couple of days ago, and we might drop in and out of it a couple of times if you have any questions. Rob. Okay, here she is. Where are things at currently? And I know information isn't really readily forthcoming.

[C]

Yeah. So right now, Evalie is still waiting. So we are going to retain the lawyer that we talked to earlier today, and he is going to try and get her bailed out as soon as possible. We had to get some forms from everyone, like her green card history, her court records, and then she was to request a form from ICE to tell the lawyer exactly what she's being charged with. So we're able to do most of those, except to get the green card history, she needs to do it pretty much, and she can't where she's at. And then ICE won't tell her what she's been charged with. According to the ICE agent, she has to go to court and petition the court and use the Freedom of Information act, which doesn't make sense to me.

[B]

Right. How did you find out this had happened?

[C]

Originally, we were there. We were coming back from vacation. We'd gone to New Zealand. We hadn't been back home for about six years. And so my son had just come back off a mission for our church, and we thought this is a good time for us to go. We were able to take three of the kids. The other three had to stay behind because they couldn't afford it. And luckily for us, there were going to be two birthdays. The uncles were both turning 80 and 70.

[B]

Oh, perfect timing.

[C]

Yeah. So, yeah, we're able to gate crash two birthdays. And so we went. We got delayed in New Zealand with all the nonsense with Iran. We had planned to fly home through Fiji and we end up being bumped off that flight and having to find a different way home. Yeah, we weren't sad about it. I was sad about having to buy new airline tickets, but, you know, we ended up coming home like 17 days later than we had planned. And we got to la and out of the five of us, Evely was the only one with a green card. We were all citizens. And so we got split at the airport where she had to go one way and we went the other, and we all went through really quick. And so we were standing there Waiting. And we could see her talking to the border agent. And I felt like something was wrong because normally when you go through with a green card, like when we've done it, it's pretty fast. You go in, you show them your passport, green card, and they ask you a couple of questions, and then you're out of there. But Hugh held her there for a while, and then I'm like, oh, man, I wonder what's wrong. And then about 15 minutes later, they both come out, and we said, oh, okay. They start walking the other way. So we start following. And the border patrol guy says, oh, we're just going to have a little bit of chat. We'll meet you guys down at the carousel.

[B]

Yeah, it sounded kind of friendly almost.

[C]

Yeah. I still felt like something was wrong, but I thought, well, he said he's going to meet us at the carousel. Okay. Yeah. He lied. We got our bags and then we're waiting. And I said, we're waiting there 20 minutes. And I. Something's wrong. And my husband goes, maybe it's going to take a little bit longer. We were there like an hour. And I started calling and texting her phone, but she wasn't allowed to touch it. She wasn't allowed to use it. And then we were there two hours. I didn't want to leave. I wanted to find out what's happening.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So we were there two hours, and then finally she called and she goes, I've been flagged because she had been issued too many green cards.

[B]

So just quickly to come out of the interview, back into the studio, the situation. Basically, Betty and her husband moved to the US When Evali was just six years old. Evalie has been on the green card ever since. She's never gone for citizenship, whereas her parents have got citizenship. So obviously when they came back and went through lax customs, being citizens, her parents went through 1Q and Evalie went through the green card queue, which is where they got split up.

[D]

Yeah. And they're coming home.

[B]

They're coming. They're coming home.

[D]

The residence is. That's where Everly lives. It's where her parents live.

[B]

They've been here for about 25 years now. Like, happily living in Wisconsin, like, having their lives, having their friends, having their religion, everything is here, you know, it just. I mean, this is. I don't mean to make light of the situation, but when we've traveled together, I always think about this because we go through different lines, usually because you've got, like, fast track. I don't. And we always get separated and it's that weird thing of, like, you'll be through on the other side. And, like, I'm still going through.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And of course, always get through. But it's that weird thing if you're coming through any kind of customs and you're separated. It's that weird thing where, like, you're waiting for them to come. And so, yeah, Evalie's parents would have just been, like, waiting for their kid to come through. And when you see them being, like, stopped, I can just imagine the tension kind of slowly rising, but also thinking, they've done this so many times before. It'll probably be okay. Our daughter will come through eventually.

[C]

What had happened was she had renewed her card, but her bag was stolen out of her car, and her green card was in there. So when she contacted them, the uscis, they told her she had to apply for a new card, but she could go and get her passport stamped. So she applied for a card, but that was during the time that Mr. Trump was president for the first time. And so everything had slowed down. You know, passport, green cards. It took three years for her to get her next green card. But by that time, she had changed address, and so she had sent in her change of address, but they didn't send her card to her new address. They sent it back to the old one. So when she got notification that her card had been delivered, she called them and said, I didn't get it. And they said, well, we sent it to you. And then they told her the address, and she goes, that's my old address.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

So she went to the old address, hoping that they would have it, but they didn't. And so when she called them back, they said, you have to apply for a new one. So she had to pay for and reapply for a new card. And so she did that. So she had, like, maybe two or three cards, and that's what flagged their interest.

[B]

So coming out of this, again, just to clarify. Cause it is quite weird. So the complaint that the Border Patrol had told Evalie is that this green card you're presenting us is a valid green card, but you've had too many of these. Like, you've had too many of these issued, so there's something suspicious, so we have to, like, pull you aside.

[D]

Yeah, they just have weird flags in their system.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

But then seem to be so unorganized that they can't hear. Hear an explanation and, like, and take the time to just have it cleared up completely.

[B]

And also incompetence. The frustration like getting a green card because I've looked at this process so I get an O1 every three years and that's takes about sort of six months to get. If you're going to do standard processing a green card takes around a year typically to get. And the idea of her having a green card then having it stolen out of a car so she applies again things during Trump era one and going super slow. Takes her three years to get it. She gets it. It's all so old fashioned. It's like mailed out. They didn't check her old address so she doesn't get that new green card. Has to apply again eventually. Gets this thing is probably like I finally got this thing. I hope no one steals it out of my car again. She's holding onto this thing and then suddenly that's used against her as she enters the states.

[D]

Yeah. For totally legitimate reasons. For needing.

[B]

For admin. For liter. Government admin.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, back into it.

[C]

And I said can you just tell them that you can't go to Walmart and just buy them. You have to apply for them and the government they're working for the one is the one that issued them to you. But that didn't matter. And then they found out back in 2014 she had a drug charge which she cleared it up. The case was closed. Courts were satisfied with what she did. She paid her fines and whatever else that she needed to do. It was done. Then they said, did you go and see an immigration judge? And she goes, no, I didn't know that I had to. And they said, well you should have and your attorney should have told you. And she says, we're from Wisconsin. I don't think my attorney knows.

[B]

No.

[C]

So they said that they were going to hold her there until she got her court records. And that's what she told us. And I went, you're not going to get it today. It's Friday. And she's like, they seem to think that I can get it by the end of the day today. And I said, I don't think so, but okay. So we went outside and we waited a little bit longer in case some miracle happened and she got her papers. It didn't happen. We then went and found a hotel because our flight was the next day. Hotel because our flight was the next day. Then I texted her for her to call us when she gets out. Then we will tell her which shuttle to get on to get to where we were. We waited and it must have been like 9 o' clock. She called crying and she said that they're going to take her to the detention facility. And I went, for what? And she goes, they won't tell me. So she just had these acrylic nails put on and they ripped them off her. You know, she had to sit there while one of the female guards ripped one hand off. And she goes, you know, that really hurts. I can take it off myself. So she removed her nails and then she had two carry on bags and they told her she can only bring one. And she goes, well, what's going to happen to the other one? They said it's just going to be left here with quantits until you claim it. They told her that when she gets to ICE within 24 hours, she will see a judge. And she was telling us that on the phone and I said, it's a weekend that no judge is going to be around on a Saturday or Sunday. Yeah, you know, they just told her a bunch of lies just to get her compliant. They made her sign some papers. When she went to read it, the border patrol guy got agitated and said, you don't have to read it. It basically says that this will expedite matters. And she goes, I understand that, but I'd like to read it before I sign anything. And so she was reading it and he ripped it out of her hands. And he goes, well, if you are going to be difficult, we're not going to play this. And then he left her in the room for like five hours and then came back and said, are you going to sign it now? Are you going to stop being difficult? And she goes, well, can I read it? And he walked away again. And two hours later he came back with a form and she just, I think she was busted up by then and she just signed it.

[B]

Yeah, sounds like an incredibly strong human, but you can only take so much, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And at this point, like you sound pretty together right now, which I think isn't remarkable. But like, how, how are you feeling at this point? How are you holding it together?

[C]

Well, normally if I get upset, she'll get upset. So I just had to like not be upset. We talked and I said, you know, you have to keep yourself calm. Don't agitate these people because from what I've seen, they'll just use any excuse to escalate something further. So don't do anything to agitate them because Evalie is probably one of the kindest, most generous human beings that you'll ever come across. But she's also the most opinionated person

[B]

I respect Both aspects of her personality.

[C]

Yeah. And I said, we'll figure this out. So that made her turn her phone off. So the kids were kind of tracking her. You know, all my kids know where each other are at all times because of their iPhones, you know. And so she turned her phone off. And then when they got to the facility, she goes, can I make a phone call? And they said, yes, but not till the morning. And they were going to take her stuff away from her. And she says, well, I need my phone because I don't know the numbers. And there was like, some debate and they went back and forth. And then finally they let her have a phone and so she turned it on.

[B]

Smart.

[C]

Because she knew that her location would ping.

[B]

Smart kid.

[C]

Yeah. And the kids were like, evely's in Hesperia. Like, right away. They've been watching.

[B]

I just want to come out of the dock here again, just briefly. It's always that thing that they tell you when you come back through customs at the moment, like, remember a phone number of a lawyer or a friend, because they will take your phone. What's kind of cool about heavily is that she somehow convinced them to them to give her phone back. She turned it on and then could instantly ping family and they could see exactly where she was.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is kind of amazing.

[D]

It speaks even more to the incompetence of these people, too. Of, like, there's not policy or process or anything at this point. They're just.

[B]

I hadn't thought about them that way. You're completely right. It's just random.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, we're going to keep the

[B]

phone from this person. Oh, no. You can have your phone for a bit.

[D]

And they're clearly, like, doing things they're not supposed to, but also so incompetent that they can't even do that properly.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

Which is great in this case.

[B]

No, I know what you mean. But it also just shows how kind of haphazard the whole thing is.

[D]

Yeah. Which is.

[B]

Yeah, you know, because you always think through this when you're signing any kind of legal form. But the idea of this agent just being a shithead and just, like, pressuring her to sign it, not giving her time to read it, saying, this will expedite you. It's like she doesn't know that. Why? Is she going to trust them? No.

[D]

And this sounds so much like all of those forced confessional, like, scenarios with. With, like, young people that they're trying to force confession of.

[B]

We've literally seen it play out in a Million dramas on tv, in a million documentaries.

[D]

Yes. And they're doing it to people that are scared. And not in this case, but in a country that like it's not home for them, that they don't understand the system in a way and the system is not helping them figure it out.

[B]

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[C]

She got the phone numbers and then turned her phone off and gave it back to them. But yeah.

[B]

How many times you spoken to her roughly, or how many times has she spoken to other people so far?

[C]

We talk to at least once a day. She'll call, she calls her siblings because they are the ones that are taking lead on this. You know, we all talk about it. We have our little family conference, but we're letting the kids drive this thing, especially with technology and that. So she calls them and talks with them. They give her an update of what's happening and she'll talk to us. So she talks to them for updates. She talks to us for peace of mind and strength in her local. Talk with her and try and get her balanced and stuff. So that's how we've been running it.

[B]

Have you got any impression from her about what the conditions are like, where she is, the room she's in, how many people she's sharing with?

[C]

46 people. There's 46 people in a room. The bunks are in there, their tables are in there. They spend the whole day in that one room. They're allowed out for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon. And that's it. They just stay in there. There's, I guess the showers and bathrooms are not in there. But she said it's a lot of bugs in there. It's a big room, lots of bugs. When she first called, she was more freaked out and blind to what was going on around her. But now that she's calm and clear headed, she's like, I don't know if this is like Munchausen syndrome. I'm starting to see the good in the place.

[B]

Yeah, she's starting to see the things that like she's obviously in there with some other people that are in her position.

[C]

Yeah. So she's the only one in that facility with a green card. Everyone else are like on work visas or undocumented.

[B]

Yeah, I'm here on an 01 so I always am curious where people are at on that journey.

[C]

Yeah. She said it's just really, really sad. There's people in there that someone's been there for 10 months. Their families don't have the resources to help them. They are just reliant on what the facility provides for them. And she goes, and what they provide is not the greatest. You know, she was going through her commissary money real quick and I'm like, what? I went, is there like a Starbucks or some Walmart there that you haven't told us about?

[B]

What are you spending this money on?

[C]

But she's just, like I said, she's just a very kind, generous person and she can see that these people have not had anything. So she buys a lot of stuff and she shares it. She is very kind, I have to say.

[B]

I mean that's probably an attitude that's going to help her in there in a way because she's getting outside of her own problem and thinking about other people. That's pretty amazing to be able to do that.

[C]

Yeah, it's right in your face and you can't ignore it. There's an old, I think she's in her 70s, Vietnamese lady in there that can't walk properly. She must have fallen when she first came in. And she has a wheelchair that she kind of uses as a walker and she walks it around Evelyn and old people, they get on really well. So she's. Yeah, she's kind of looking after her and. But she said this old lady, her husband is trying to get her out and she goes, it's been a struggle for her. And she listens to everyone's story and she's just like, it's terrible. She can't stand how the guards talk to people, too. And a lot of them can't understand English, so the guards play on that. So they're yelling at them in English. And Evely's like, yeah, they don't know

[B]

what the fuck you're saying.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. She's like, I guess there was a guard yelling at another woman. And she goes, know how you, as a woman, can stand here and talk like that to someone who's been stripped of everything and then continue this abuse? I don't know how you can do that. You. You disgust me. And I'm just like, evely, we talked about that.

[B]

Keep your head down. My daughter.

[C]

Yeah, don't be a hero. She goes, mom, I can't help it. I can't. And she goes, you taught me different. And I say, yeah, but we kind of taught you common sense. I mean. Yeah. So it's not the greatest. The food's not the greatest. Being crowded, which I think 46 people in a room, there's going to be friction. But everybody says that because they're not criminals that are in there. They're just normal people. And they try to make the most of something. You know, like on Sunday, everyone pulls whatever they have from commissary together, and they make a Sunday meal, and they all sit together and eat it, which is, like, very, very sweet. And she goes, they've learned how to make things with what they have. Like using the microwave. They made a cake for someone else who had a birthday. They got all their cookies or something, and then they smashed it and added milk and some other stuff and then microwaved it, turned it into a cake.

[B]

Sounds pretty good.

[C]

Yeah. And she goes, yeah, everyone are willing to share what they have. She said her first day, she was sleeping, but she could hear people talk, and she just wanted to keep her eyes closed and just not be there. And one of them came to her bed and said, hey, your breakfast is here. You should get up and eat it. And then Emily got up, and she goes, I really don't want it. And they said, do you mind if we have it? And she goes, you go ahead. And then someone else said, you're probably thirsty. And they were really good visual cup. And they're broken English. There's your cup. I'll get you water. And they kind of looked after her first few days. So, you know, there's a lot of kindness in there from other people.

[B]

Yeah. People who are in this really horrific situation and incredibly stressed, still holding it together for each other.

[C]

Yeah, it's lovely.

[B]

So you talked about the resources that she has in her sharing and going through her resources. Can you top her up with cash or how do you get more to her?

[C]

Yeah, this is just like a huge money making operation, I feel.

[B]

Oh, yeah. American prison system in any capacity.

[C]

Yeah. So you can top it up. They have like a commissary account and then you can just go in. And the great thing is that she can access it and then move it, move the money around to where she needs it. So I don't want to put in a lot, but now that I hear that she's helping other people, you know, be like, oh, should we put in a little bit extra? And you can only do it with your credit card. So you charged by your credit card company, they charge you extra for putting money in. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Now they'll be taking that of it as well. The. Yeah, you know, the detention center will be taking that as well, right?

[C]

Yep, yep. Probably when she buys things, you know, that stepped up the price.

[B]

You know, when you, when you left the US for this trip in New Zealand, obviously there's been a lot of people paranoid about coming and going.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But you know, you guys are citizens, obviously. She's got a green card, but a green card is incredibly solid. Was there any point where you sort of had discussions going, oh, should we go to New Zealand? Or was it not even in your head?

[C]

It was not even in our head. Just been back and forth every two, three years. We try and take our family home. So they touch base with family and get around them and.

[B]

Right, so Evalie's been in and out plenty of times before.

[C]

Oh, yeah, she's been in and out many times. And even after her court, she had left the country two, maybe three times.

[B]

And actually speaking of what were the drugs charges in that process? Just so I can wrap my head around that a little bit, she, during

[C]

her rebellious years, she was caught in possession of marijuana.

[B]

Oh, terrible stuff. Terrible, terrible stuff.

[C]

Yeah, that was.

[B]

It was possession of marijuana. That was what all that was about.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

She's not a drug lord running an empire like Breaking Bad.

[C]

No, no. It would be nice because we then would have money.

[B]

But unfortunately she's so just quickly coming out again. That drugs thing is interesting because this has been reported a little bit in New Zealand. Like I've written about it, major outlets have written about it. And the comments you'll always get in the comments section, which is with any of this is like, there's a reason they like got her. She's a criminal. She's awful but like, note it was she has some weed. Yeah. Now.

[D]

And a drug that's now legal, depending on where you are in the United States.

[B]

Completely. She'd also dealt with it in the courts already. It's been dealt with to the point where she has come and gone from the US before. Yeah. With this on her record.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's been fine. So. But of course, every single racist idiot is in every comment section just going, she deserved it.

[D]

She was punished for it, it seems like, already and completely. And did complied and did what she needed. 100 as punishment.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[D]

And is now beyond that.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Do you talking to your lawyer and I know you can't get into legal stuff here, but do you sort of have a feeling of sort of best and worst case scenario? Obviously, you don't know how long this will go on for. You obviously want her home to Wisconsin.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Or is it this chance of being sent back to New Zealand? Like, what are the scenarios that are playing out here?

[C]

The lawyer is just surprised that it's even this far. She's like, I don't get it. He said something like that. Even with a drug charge from years ago, if they had any worries, they would have seized, you know, the past practices. They seize your passport, seize your green card, then send you on your way. So when you get back, you have to go set a court date to get all your things back and to straighten up whatever it is that they think you need to straighten up. He said normally that that's what what it is. They just seize yourself because you're not going to leave the country without your green card and you're not going to leave without your passport. You can't. So he's like, I don't understand how this happened. He says he's had a few cases like that, but the drug charges were like, for the heroin and cocaine.

[B]

And so, yeah, much more serious via class A substances.

[C]

Yeah. He just said that his first goal is to get her out of the facility and then after that he'll work with going to the immigration judge to see what the next move is, I guess.

[B]

And do you have a hope that there'll be movement this week and getting to a judge?

[C]

I'm hoping we'll see because nothing's panned out the way we've planned it.

[B]

So that's America right now, isn't it? Nothing quite panning out the way you expect. What does Everly do in Wisconsin? I was there for the first time maybe a month and a half ago for a giant cheese competition. Beautiful. I love, I was in Madison. I love Wisconsin. What does Everleigh do there?

[C]

Oh, she's a welder for. So Aaron's is the king of snow blowers apparently.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So she's a welder for them.

[B]

Amazing. Cool.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, she does great. She's looking. Before we left, she had been looking at other opportunities but. But that's what she is. She's a welder by trade.

[B]

And what brought you guys to the us?

[C]

My husband's a train driver. He was a train driver in New Zealand and Wisconsin bought New Zealand rail.

[B]

Oh my God. I didn't know that. That's. That's incredible.

[C]

Yeah, they bought New Zealand Rail years ago back in the nine, like 94. And then they wanted to bring drivers over. So My husband was one of the 12 drivers and their family selected.

[B]

Right. So this is like 25 years ago or something.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. And how old was Evely when you guys moved over?

[C]

She had just turned six when we moved over.

[B]

Yeah. So America's home, isn't it? It's her other home.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

What a really messed up situation you found yourself in. I admire how calm you are through this. She sounds amazing. Like Everly sounds friggin incredible. You have a really cool daughter.

[C]

She is amazing. She is.

[B]

Has it made you rethink about. Obviously things are in turmoil here at the moment and I think a lot of us, like, I'm just like, I'm here because I want to, you know, I have work here. I want to keep reporting on some of the awful things that are happening here because that's the whole job of journalism. But has your family kind of rethinked thought what the States means to you at the moment and.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Or are you just going to sort of get through this first?

[C]

We really have. So Evely's the eldest in our family. Her sister, we call her number two, has just had a baby last year and she's on a green card as well. So the two of them are the only ones that were on green cards. My second daughter, she's like, I cannot be separated from my son.

[B]

Yeah, not an option. Not going to happen.

[C]

Yeah. She. I cannot. So I, I said, you know, maybe you need to look at becoming a citizen. And she goes, I will. And she goes, but I think I would like to look at moving home as well. Yeah. So the other two older boys, they're looking at moving back as well. Just what's happened has just kind of put them off. It's kind of rough.

[B]

No, that, that all makes sense. I mean, all that, so much is going to be running through your minds right now, primarily, obviously getting your kid out of this facility.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I've just Google mapped it now. So the facility is about a two hour drive from central Los Angeles, Right?

[C]

Yeah. My boys that are in Utah were saying maybe they can set up a time where they'll go and visit her if she's not out this week. But they only have like, visits on, I think, Fridays.

[B]

Okay. What a time.

[C]

Yeah. The whole thing is ridiculous.

[B]

Look, thank you for taking the time to talk to me about this when you've got so many other things running through your mind. If people want to help, obviously there's the go fund me, I believe, which is probably going towards legal defense and I guess topping up her account at the facility. Is that the best thing people can do is to give to that.

[C]

Yeah, that would be great because I know it's not going to be cheap.

[B]

Oh, my God. Lawyers in this country, no, they don't. One thing that doesn't come cheap as an American lawyer.

[C]

Oh my gosh. My son's like, man, I got into the wrong. The wrong field.

[B]

Yeah. We all, we all think that the second you have to pay a lawyer, that's what we're all thinking.

[C]

So I'm not driven into engineering and just gone to being a lawyer. Yeah.

[B]

Well, look, thinking of you and I really appreciate you talking about this.

[C]

Well, yeah. And thank you for sharing an interest. And we're just clutching at anything that's going to help bring light to this and not. Not just for Evely. I'm just like. When she talks about the other people in there, I. I'm just like, just second, you know, I'm just so sad for them. And she said something funny last night. She said, I hope when they let us go that I am released in the middle of the night so I don't have to say goodbye to them. And I'm like, yeah.

[B]

Betty was. I. I can't believe how together she was. Yeah. Like, if I. If I have anything out of sorts in my life, I fall apart pretty quickly. She's got this horrific thing happening and is like incredibly focused still.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, her whole family sounds pretty.

[B]

They're all pretty tight. Yeah. And I've talked to like Everly's aunt and sister and stuff, and they're all the same. They're all just like, very focused, trying to stay positive, trying to keep a sense of humor in one of the weir. Weirdest situations of all time. And. Yeah. And something you said While that was playing, I think is so correct. Like the fact other family members are now going, we might go back to New Zealand. That's what the administration wants. Right. They want people to. They want people that aren't white to self deport.

[D]

Yeah. It's a scare tactic and elephant in the room. They want everyone listening to that hears this story that is not white and that is here in a green card. And they want them to be afraid that this could happen to them.

[B]

Yeah. An elephant in the room, like ever. Billy is brown, she's not white. Like that's why she got targeted. Like, let's not like be melee mouthed about this like that.

[D]

And they're trying to fill a quota of how many people we need to put in these detention centers. And like here's a drug charge from a long time ago and this weird flag on green card technicality.

[B]

Completely.

[D]

And she checks these boxes, like throw her in there and like let the system be bogged down by it. We're not going to be in a hurry to figure it out because clearly there is a system in place prior to this that if it was a real issue would have been flagged then.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

But it wasn't. And now they're trying to fill this quota of who. Who do we throw in here?

[B]

Every excuse imaginable, whether it is like legal or not. There's also that whole situation, you know, so she's. Everly is still in the detention facility as we record this. We don't know how long she'll be there for. It's when she gets to see a judge, it's when they let her see a judge. It's super unclear. And as Betty said, there's a woman in there that's been in there for 10 months. Like if you don't have representation and you don't have family and you don't have money, like you do just rot in there. Which is why people are dying in these facilities.

[D]

Yeah. Well. Or you have people that don't speak English and. Yeah. They can't communicate family here that speak English, that don't know where they are.

[B]

Like the other thing. I mean, that's the other thing. Evely lives in Wisconsin.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

She is in a detention facility two and a half hour drive from where we are in California.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Like that is disorientating. Like they're splitting people up. So even getting to a place.

[D]

Yeah. Just is hard. But then the communication gaps happening between language barriers is going to drive that up even more. And then socioeconomic discrepancy between people that they're throwing in there, too.

[B]

It's also so stupid because it's like, I feel like these people have been. I mean, her parents were bought over to work. To work here in Wisconsin because they had skills in driving trains. And like, Evely is here. She is a really good welder working for an American company.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So they're not here, like, bumming around. And even if they were bumming around, this would be stupid. It's insane.

[D]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, they're the. They're the type of people that contribute to making America what it is. Completely as good as it is. I'm gonna refrain from Zane, as great as it is, because it's too close to the other tagline.

[B]

Why they ruined that tagline.

[D]

So annoying to like, you're wasting money, you're wasting resources. All of this funding that's going to ICE.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

To put these people in 46 people in a room and on how many rooms in that building and how many of those buildings across this country of just confusion.

[B]

Yeah. Not processing anything, just sitting.

[D]

People that are so bad that they're having Sunday dinners with each other, melting

[B]

down their cookies to make a birthday cake.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

They sound pretty terrifying.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

I looked into visiting Evalie in the Alt Adelanto ice processing center. Adelanto. Weird word. It's about three hours northeast of here. I talked to Evely's sister, who said that Evalie wanted to put me on the list, but essentially only American citizens can visit. And I talked to her sister and political figure that I know, and they basically all said you risk being arrested if you go. Basically, like if you're there on a visa and you're trying to see someone and get in there.

[D]

Same situation that she's in.

[B]

Exactly. So, yeah, me walking in the door, Not a sensible situation for anyone. Not going to help anyone.

[D]

Yeah. So what you're saying is you want me to go.

[B]

I would like you to go, please, at a citizen. A couple of other quick updates that happened since I talked to Betty. I got a really beautiful comment. I'll put her go fund me in the show notes for this because obviously legal fees are mounting up. Jen, who is Everly's aunt Betty's sister, she wrote in with what I think is the most beautiful sort of take on what is going on and how screwed it is. I'll try and get through this because I think it's really beautifully written. And this is responding to the webworm piece that I wrote a couple of days ago. David, thank you for this again, Alphano. That's family. Appreciate your platform and the fact that you're speaking out against this madness. I especially love that you called the detention what it truly is. It's a kidnapping, and my sister Betty and her husband Gordon are paying the ransom. I hope you're able to make it to the facility to speak to Evalie. Obviously, I can't do that. My sister said it all. Evalie is a good and decent person. What she didn't say is that EVS has been raised by good people who are always there to help those in need and who put family and love at the core of their values. I am fortunate to have been embraced by the Aroha. That's love of the Whangi Whanau. Being Betty's sister, I think that's just the Polynesian way. We trace our connection through blood, family ties, the land and the oceans. And this is where it gets really interesting to me. Evalie's maternal line through Betty is from the Cook Islands. Our great grandfather was actually from America. He was a merchant trader who sailed to the Pacific and settled in a beautiful island called Aitutaki. He met our great grandmother, Rangyuru, and they had many children. It's where we got our European surname from. Hewitt. One of the children was Amelia May, Evalie's great grandmother. American military was stationed in Aitutaki in World War II because of the threat of Japanese invasion in the Pacific. When the Americans left Aitutaki, they also left numerous babies behind. My grandmother, Amelia May, had one of these children, Evalie's great granddad and mine and Betty's father, Richard Lewis Bixby Hewitt. A cultural practice amongst Pacific people is to be able to whakapapa this, to acknowledge your roots and your connections. So if you can find the connection to a people or a land, then you can find how you belong. Everly's great, great grandfather's name was William Thomas Hewitt. From our records, he came from Oregon. Evalie's great grandfather, the American soldier, was called Richard Louis Bixby. He was from Pennsylvania and is buried in a military cemetery in New York State. In other words, Evalie Confakapapa to America. She is connected to America by blood that can be traced through the Hewitts and the Bixbys. Our family history in the USA traces back further than that of the Trumps. And to that, I say, fuck Trump and fuck ice. Love you, Evalie. That is from Jen, Evaligh's aunt. I mean, that says it all.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, is. Is There anything that can be done with that?

[B]

I know, right? That's the thing. Like, I mean, fuck. I mean, in this. In this atmosphere. Probably not.

[D]

Probably not. But I know, like, Canada right now, they've, like, loosened citizenship of, like, if you can just prove you have some lineage.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Back then you can get it.

[B]

I got goosebumps. It's that. Because it's like. It's right there.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And it just shows how ridiculous all of this is. It's like, you belong. You don't belong. Like, you're white, you're brown, you're from New Zealand, you're from the Cook. It's all just.

[D]

She has a great grandfather that was in World War II fighting for.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

America.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Is what is being claimed as, like, the most patriotic you can be.

[B]

Yeah. America gets so excited by that. Like, when they're calling you to the plane, it's like, have you served in the military? You're first in line to get on the plane. It's like a sports game here. It's like, let's all stand up for those that are served. And yet you get far enough away from that and it's all just ignored and you're treated like shit. But in this case, because you're not white, because you're brown. So it all just comes down to racism, which is what it all is.

[D]

Yep.

[B]

But I thought that that message was particularly beautiful, and I wanted to state that here, keep across this. I hope that Everly is out soon. You know, they have a lawyer, they're working through it. But again, it's so unpredictable. And I think it's really telling that, you know, the green card thing has felt like a safety net. Like, that's pretty solid. And so the fact that she's in there with that is really. I mean, it's all insane, but that's particularly nuts.

[D]

Yeah. They've done. She's done things how the system has designed things to be done.

[B]

Yeah. And she's paid a shit ton of money. Like green cards. I talked to my immigration attorney the other day. A green card for me at the moment's about, I don't know, like, 12,000, $15,000, something like that. Like, it's not cheap.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not like you go and fill in a form and get it. It's like a big investment.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Feedback. The all important feedback. Flightless breadchatmail.com if you have any feedback about this episode, Flightless breadchatmail.com I'd love to hear from you, Toby, on our Spotify Comments says. I always find it so interesting why David seems to have no regard for what he wears or how he keeps his hair. Is this a look or a style question mark? To me it looks unshowered. Pick up whatever's laying about and haphazardly put on. It'll be fun to see you dressed up. It's the end of the message.

[D]

Let's pop up a photo from Magic Castle. Yep, here's David in a suit.

[B]

Do you want that?

[D]

Which also was fun. Think you got mad at the first things that were said to you once you got to the car.

[B]

I did get mad. Everyone looked at me and laughed at me in a suit. Which one reading of that is? That was a bit of a shock. Trying to stand.

[D]

I mean you. I think you came from the pool today. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

You comb your hair? Maybe after.

[B]

No, I don't have a brush.

[D]

Yeah, I thought the reason I wrong

[B]

the reason I got into podcasts is also I thought it was an audio medium, but then suddenly as long as I've been in this, it's pivoted to video. Yeah, I stand by it. I love my. I love my look. Laura says, as a Wisconsinite, go pack. Go. Apparently that's the chant, I guess.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I loved your episode about cheese. Did you know that the only place in the country that makes Limburger cheese is Wisconsin? The Chalet Cheese Corporation is located In Monroe, about 45 minutes drive south of Madison. A lot of emails like this. Just like locations are different, like cheeses. Dylan said. I like how many times you said the people of Madison were so nice. My wife and I were there for her residency at UW and met so many wonderful people. The phrase Midwest nice is definitely not an exaggeration. The stereotype of Wisconsin's loving to drink is true. I've seen a map of the 50 counties with the most DUIs per capita and I think 48 of them were in Wisconsin, which is really good. However, Madison is also extremely fit. I was going to the airport for a 6am flight one time and I counted 15 cyclists and joggers before 5am I like that little personal stat. Zane said, Good friend of mine grew up in Vermont and always likes to say that apple pie without the cheese. It's like a hug without the squeeze. What do you think of that?

[D]

Yeah, I remember the first time I heard that you put cheese on apple pie. We always were surprised by it. It sounds.

[B]

I would never have thought to do that.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Apparently it's the most American thing you can Do?

[D]

Yeah, There was a cooking show that they did that and it seemed crazy at the time when I.

[B]

You've never tried it?

[D]

No.

[B]

Could be something for this year's Thanksgiving. Josh says, your comment on Boston and New York attitudes made me want to write in. I'm a native Bostonian, really, from the North Shore, but we tell people Boston. Do you understand that reference geography?

[D]

A little bit.

[B]

And I lived in northwest Indiana for a few years for grad school. I think the real cultural differences are kind of the following. People from the northeast are really short with strangers. We have things to do and we're a fast paced people. And let's not talk driving because we're mean when it comes to that. We'll cut you off. In the Midwest, I found that people are always willing to talk to you for far too long and act very friendly, suspicious. I was often accused of being rude when I was just talking to people how I would. Back home, there's a culture of roasting and teasing people you care about. In the northwest. In the Northeast, sounds a bit like you, Robert. Teasing is a sign of affection. But in the Midwest, they just think you're being a jerk. I also learned that bless your heart is a subtle way of saying, wow, you're a naive little idiot. This is just my personal set of experiences as a cold blooded New Englander lost in the cornfields. So take it with a grain of salt.

[D]

That all makes sense.

[B]

That all tracks.

[D]

That all tracks and is in alignment with what I was saying, I think.

[B]

Margaret, Sis, I was watching the episode. Thanks, Margaret, for watching. You can watch us on Spotify and YouTube if you want. Or maybe she was just imagining. I was watching the episode with my dad, who's from southern Wisconsin. And as I got to the end, he said, I wonder if they know about the great Madison cheese fire, which I don't remember hearing about ever. And so he loved telling me about it. Have you heard about this?

[D]

I have not. I don't think so.

[B]

So in 91, a giant warehouse of in 91, a giant warehouse of government cheese and butter caught fire in bur for a week. Because the fat kept fueling the fire, the walls collapsed, sending a river of Molson butter and cheese into the surrounding areas. Sometimes waist deep, I feel this is made up. Yeah, waist deep. No. Making it difficult to fight the fire. These firefighters are just like bogged down waist deep in cheese. She attached some articles. It's a real thing. I really love the great medicine cheese fire. That's the thing. Blair says as a green Bay resident. I must correct your interpretation that Green Bay Packer fans who wear cheese heads don't take their sport seriously. I would say we may even take our football more seriously than the residents of Chicago. Side eye, Rob. On another note, the Wisconsin State Capitol dome over the Rotunda is the largest dome by volume in the United States and the only dome in the US Made of granite. Some facts for you.

[D]

Yeah. Did you pull out any of the non Packer fan feedback? No, I saw a couple of like, Vikings fans. Did you? Yeah, didn't see any.

[B]

Must have just passed me by.

[D]

Another, other Chicago fans.

[B]

Oh, here's one. Jamie. I'm from Chicago, but I went to college in Wisconsin for two and a half years and completely agree with everything Rob mentioned. In college, I went to a Bears packers game at Lambeau Field. My roommate was head to toe in packers gear and me head to toe in Bears gear. Every Bears fan I saw was an immediate best friend and Packer fans booed her for being with me. Another crazy thing. Wisconsinites call Illinoisians fibs. Fib. Any guesses to what that stands for?

[D]

Fibbers.

[B]

Fucking Illinois's bastard. And they also called them fish. Any guesses, Rob? Fucking Illinois's shithead.

[D]

So the bad blood does run deep between Green Bay and Chicago. And I think it's mostly football related.

[B]

It seems to be. Right.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, that is the. I went to. I took Calvin to a Bears 49ers game in San Francisco at the end of last season. And you spot the other fans there from these, like, Midwest teams.

[B]

Right?

[D]

Like, like they said. Instant friend of.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

There's just camaraderie that you have.

[B]

I do. Like, I mean, we have it in New Zealand. We have sport in New Zealand. We have rugby especially. I hear we do. But you definitely hear that the team spirit is so much higher. Like, it's so big here. The colors, the merch, everything.

[D]

It also depends on where you are too. Like the. I don't. It's not quite the same in LA as it is in Chicago or Wisconsin because there are so many transplants in LA that your team is not necessarily here.

[B]

Right, right, right, right.

[D]

So, like, so when you go to other cities and see your team, like, and you see those fans around, it's like, ah, those are my people.

[B]

Those are my people. I'm safe.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

It's a safe place.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

These are my brothers, these are my sisters. Are there. Thank you as always for listening. Finally, thanks to you, our listeners, voting for us. We have won two Webby Award Two.

[D]

We've won two Abby awards.

[B]

Best Indie podcast, as voted officially by the judges and you, the listeners. That has given us two. Yeah.

[D]

The voter's choice.

[B]

Thank you for voting for us. It is really awesome. It's like, much like liking and subscribing and giving a review to a podcast, it just helps it spread. We want a Webby. People will be like, oh, what's this? Fight this Bird. What the fuck is this? That one on Webby. Maybe we'll listen to it and discover it. People listen and then, oh, my God, there's 200 episodes here.

[D]

Yeah. And I feel like we were about ready to hang things up too.

[B]

We were.

[D]

We were run out of topics like, no one's listening to this.

[B]

We got the Webby now. And we're like, we're going to keep going.

[D]

Free news spirit.

[B]

In a way, it's really nice. It's nice to win a thing.

[D]

It is nice just feeling that people appreciate the show.

[B]

Yeah. Because we see people listening, we see the numbers, we see the comments, sort of. But having a. Yeah, but not always. Like, it's quiet, you know, so it's nice getting that validation. So thank you. If you have feedback, we have flightless bird. Chat gmail.com. we'll keep you across Everly's situation in future episodes. I'll be writing about it on Webworm as well.

[D]

Oh, and also we're on Patreon.

[B]

We are. Come and join us patreon.com Flightless Bird. We do bonus episodes, all sorts of posts. It's a fun community there. Come and join in if you can.

[D]

I think we're close. We're close to the tattoo tier.

[B]

We are. We've done the Roosevelt here. I've had an egg smashed on my head. Roosevelt has come to America. We've done all that. That's all on Patreon.

[D]

We. We still have not done the Lord of the Rings screening, but that does mean it's not too late if you sign up that you. If you are in la, you can join us for it.

[B]

I admit, I am digging my heels and still I'm horrified at the idea of having to spend three hours in a cinema with that film.

[D]

Yeah, we'll get it on the schedule, I think, in the next month or two.

[B]

Pretty busy at the moment, you know, we'll see. So. Yeah, Any feedback? Flight, the spreadchatmail.com, we love to hear from you. And we'll see you on Patreon. And we'll see you next week. See you next week.

[C]

Sa.