Kratom & 7-OH

Summary

Flightless Bird – "Kratom & 7-OH" (July 21, 2026)

Host: David Farrier
Cohost: Rob
Guests/Experts: Michael (pseudonym, Kratom and 7-OH user), Pat (Partnership to End Addiction)

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Overview

In this eye-opening episode of Flightless Bird, David Farrier uncovers the world of Kratom and its even stronger derivative, 7-OH, both of which are widely available at gas stations and smoke shops across the United States. What starts as a Kiwi journalist’s curiosity about an unfamiliar substance morphs into an exploration of a billion-dollar, largely unregulated industry, addiction, public perception, and the need for consumer awareness and regulation. Through candid interviews with a user caught in addiction and an expert in substance dependence, David and Rob reveal the alarming potency, accessibility, and risks surrounding these “herbal” products.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. Initial Curiosity & Observations (00:50–07:00)

• David’s Exposure: David first noticed Kratom when visiting New York, where signs for it were everywhere, and sharing a photo on Instagram led to a temporary ban for "drug references"—despite Kratom's over-the-counter legal status.
• Cultural Contrast: Kratom isn't common in New Zealand; marijuana is the stereotypical "drug of choice." Rob and David both describe themselves as not being into drugs, preferring to maintain control and not risk dependency.
• Changing Landscape: The rapid proliferation of “alternative” drugs in the US is noted—edibles, mushrooms, ketamine clinics—and the confusion this creates for those not embedded in drug culture.

2. What is Kratom & 7-OH? (14:00–20:00)

• Kratom: A plant extract from Southeast Asia, sold as a supplement in gas stations and smoke shops throughout the US. At low doses, a stimulant; at higher doses, a sedative. Potentially addictive and sometimes deadly, especially when combined with other substances.
• 7-OH (7-Hydroxymitragynine): A highly potent alkaloid extracted from Kratom, described as 13 times more powerful than morphine. Marketed as the "next-level" product, it's rapidly growing in popularity.

3. User Experience: Michael’s Story (13:12–38:16)

Discovery and Escalation (13:37–16:44)

• First Encounter: Michael, identifying as straight-laced, first tried Kratom in college (2012) and returned to it years later for pain relief working in construction.
• Routine Use: Kratom became a daily ritual, like coffee, perceived as benign.
• 7-OH Entry: In 2024, Michael is introduced to 7-OH. “It hit me like a freight train...it felt just like [morphine]." (16:10–16:44)
• Immediate Addiction: "By the time I realized I was hooked on these things, it was too late...You know, I had my fun, and I went into withdrawals almost immediately." (16:51–17:14)

Addiction and Secrecy (30:20–36:43)

• Secrecy and Shame: Michael keeps his addiction secret from family and friends. “It’s shameful to be addicted to gas station heroin, you know what I mean?" (30:20)
• Escalating Tolerance: Now consumes an entire 30-pack of 50mg tablets daily to stave off withdrawals, not to get high. "Once you start building a tolerance, you gotta increase and increase and increase to not get high...just to avoid withdrawals." (30:32)
• Withdrawal: “The insomnia can last like two weeks...I've got a five year old and a one year old and not sleeping is not an option for me. So it's, it's insidious. It just traps you.” (32:49–33:50)
• Isolation: “I'm a father, a husband, and just the fact that I've got this secret...I can't feel like I can share it. This is the first time I've talked to someone face to face about it and the true depths of where I'm at. ...It's all shame.” (36:07)

Costs and Attempts to Quit

• Financial Toll: “It’s just a fortune…one of these is a hundred bucks. …I wish I wasn’t spending $100 a day on this.” (35:01–35:34)
• Failed Quitting Attempts: Tried outpatient rehab, tapering, cold turkey; severe withdrawal symptoms—especially "post acute withdrawal syndrome" (paws).
• Nuanced Perspective: While tempted to support a ban, Michael recognizes some people use it for pain without better options: “People shouldn’t be punished for my inability to take this in moderation.” (38:16)

4. Expert Perspective: Pat, Partnership to End Addiction (18:01–24:06, 29:11–35:01)

• Potency Arms Race: 7-OH is analogous to ultra-high-nicotine vaping or high-THC marijuana; a product engineered for far greater potency.
• Market Size: Estimates range from 1.6M to up to 16M US users, fueling a multi-billion dollar industry.
• Availability: Kratom and 7-OH are available nationwide—regulation is patchy. Some states ban them, others treat them as supplements; age requirements are inconsistent (19:33).
• Toxicity and Contamination: 7-OH can be deadly, especially in combo with other drugs. Plus, little quality control means batches may be contaminated with heavy metals or salmonella.
  • “The belief is that it is 13 times more powerful than morphine and yet available in gas stations and convenience stores and vape shops and online which is just objectively to me seems fucking crazy.” (20:41, Farrier & Pat)
• Motivations for Use: Many people turn to Kratom/7-OH for chronic pain when lacking insurance or access to prescription meds.
• Addiction Treatments: FDA-approved medications for opioid dependence exist (Suboxone, Methadone) and are preferred, but the lack of regulation means many users try to “self-medicate” with Kratom.
• Withdrawal Management: “For high-dosing levels and especially 7-OH products [users] may need medically supervised detox...” (33:53)

5. Regulation, Marketing, and Public Perception (19:26–22:00; 44:37–47:00)

• Wild West Regulation: Massive differences across states; users (and parents) assume gas-station products are safe, compounding the danger.
• Aggressive Marketing: Stores are pushing 7-OH to regular Kratom users, occasionally even giving it away as a free trial to build dependency (20:54).
• Packaging Chaos: Products can be inconsistently labeled—same pills, different promises, no reliable information.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It hit me like a freight train. … It felt just like [morphine]. … The first week or so of taking it...It feels great. But now I get no feeling.” — Michael (15:28, 16:44)
• “The belief is that it is 13 times more powerful than morphine and yet available in gas stations and convenience stores and vape shops and online, which is just objectively to me seems fucking crazy.” — David (20:41)
• “No one knows that I’m on this stuff. I keep it secret. It's shameful to be addicted to gas station heroin, you know what I mean?” — Michael (30:20)
• “It's just sustaining baseline, which is...just a horrific concept to me.” — Rob (43:26)
• “Anything I buy from a corner store will be safe for me. ...And the fact this is there. Yeah, it's mind blowing to me.” — David (47:00)
• “If this can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.” — Michael (38:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Event | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:50–04:45 | Introduction: Kratom’s Ubiquity/Instagram Ban Anecdote | | 07:57–09:36 | Drug Culture in US vs. New Zealand | | 13:12–18:01 | Michael’s Story: Discovery and Early Addiction | | 15:28–16:44 | First Experience with 7-OH: “Freight train”—Opioid-level High | | 18:01–24:06 | Expert Interview (Pat): Market Scale, Risks, Regulation | | 29:11–30:32 | Devil's Advocate: Kratom as a "Lesser Evil"/Possible Benefits | | 30:32–36:43 | Addiction, Secrecy, and Shame: Michael’s Ongoing Struggle | | 33:53–35:01 | Expert: Treatment Protocols and Strong Pull of Relapse | | 38:16–38:41 | Nuanced Regulatory Opinion: Michael Against Blanket Ban | | 41:00–44:37 | Post-Interview Reflection: Public Perceptions & False Sense of Safety | | 44:37–47:00 | Regulator Clampdown (e.g., California enforcement); Marketing Tactics |

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Thematic Takeaways

• Gas Station Heroin: 7-OH is as addictive and dangerous as street drugs, but far more accessible.
• Regulation Gap: The patchwork legal landscape, combined with aggressive marketing and little oversight, is fueling addiction and overdoses.
• Social Shame and Isolation: Michael’s struggle highlights how users are trapped not only by the chemistry of addiction, but by secrecy and stigma—the very factors that often keep problems hidden.
• Conflict of Needs: Some use these substances due to lack of pain-management options. Blanket bans cause suffering for those already addicted or for pain patients; yet, unrestricted access creates new waves of dependency.
• Consumer Trust Breach: The assumption that “over-the-counter” means “safe” is deeply challenged.

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Closing Discussion & Reflections

• David and Rob are stunned by the potency and availability of such substances, reflecting on how easy it would be to inadvertently become dependent—and how the lack of system-level safeguards is symptomatic of broader American issues with healthcare, profit-driven regulation, and consumer safety.
• David confirms Kratom is rare and gray-market in New Zealand, in stark contrast to its normalization in the US.
• David invites listeners to write in with their own experiences—confirming that for every dire story there may be others who see different effects.

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Final Thoughts

This episode raises essential questions about how America balances personal agency, corporate profit, and public health, framed through the lens of an addictive supplement hiding in plain sight. While Kratom and 7-OH serve as the focal point, the real story is about regulation, trust—and the dangerous ways the system can let people slip through the cracks.

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To share your story or feedback, email: flightlessbirdchatmail.com

Transcript

[Rosabelle]

Hi, David.

[David Farrier]

Hi, Rosabelle. The question on everybody's minds, how is your dog Bailey?

[Rosabelle]

Ah, he started doing this thing where he gets up on his hind legs and paws at me while I sit at my desk. Really in insistent on getting my attention and.

[David Farrier]

Yeah. What do you think he wants from you?

[Rosabelle]

Do you have a feeling maybe a compliment or something like that? What do you think?

[David Farrier]

I think he wants food or he wants the ball that he loves playing with.

[Rosabelle]

Yeah.

[David Farrier]

Bailey pissed on your bed recently? I'm just wondering if there have been any more accidents around the house.

[Rosabelle]

Not that I'm aware of. At least not on the bed, but who knows? All sorts of little corners of the house I haven't been looking at.

[David Farrier]

Now today's Flight Flight the Spirit episode is about Kratom and something else called seven. Oh, I'm wondering if you've heard of either of those two items.

[Rosabelle]

Yeah, because when we were in.

[Michael]

Where were we?

[Rosabelle]

Were we in Austin or when we were in Texas, there was so many shops that said Kratom on the outside.

[David Farrier]

So many. Right.

[Rosabelle]

I had to ask what it was. I'd never heard of it before.

[David Farrier]

Would it be fair to say that the sort of the recreational drug of choice in New Zealand would be weed? Right. Marijuana.

[Rosabelle]

I couldn't say. I'm not really across. I'm such a good girl.

[David Farrier]

All right, well, look, it's always been a pleasure as well. Give Bailey a little pat for me.

[Rosabelle]

I will send us some Kratom and we'll both try it too.

[David Farrier]

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America and I want to figure out what makes this country tick. Now, last year something weird happened when I was in New York. I kept noticing all these smoke shops and gas stations selling something called Kratom. I'd been seeing this so called supplement around for years, but never really looked into it further. And on this particular day I took a photo and posted it to my Instagram story and Meta promptly banned me from going live for a year. Something to do with illicit substances, which is really weird because Kratom wasn't particularly illicit. As I said, it's been around for ages. It's advertised all over New York when I was there last. And it's a plant extract from Southeast Asia sold at gas stations around the United States. But more recently I started hearing about seven. Oh, maybe it's seven. Oh, I don't know how you say it. Anyway, it's a much stronger form of Kratom also being sold unregulated over the Counter as well. And then last month, I met a guy who was addicted to the stuff kratom and 7oh at various points. So I figured it was time I learned about what the heck was going on with kratom and 7oh here in the United States. So prepare to buy something quite powerful and highly addictive over the counter, because this is the kratom and 7 oh episode. Rob, what a beautiful long sleeve T shirt you have on from New Zealand band the Vales. Who would have gotten you such a beautiful gift from New Zealand?

[Rob]

I don't remember who got me this.

[David Farrier]

Yeah, it's a pretty cool guy, I think, went in and got that for you while he was in New Zealand.

[Rob]

But, you know, hopefully enjoyed the show.

[David Farrier]

Looking good. How are things going?

[Rob]

It's going good. Good. How are you?

[David Farrier]

I'm excited about this episode because I have. I have a personal investment in this. What got me.

[Rob]

Oh, you've. You've bought in the Kratom stock.

[David Farrier]

I am on it right now.

[Rob]

You have a Kratom farm.

[David Farrier]

I am a lot of Kratom on me right now. No Kratom and more recently seven OH have just been these two things that have been in my brain, but I have had no idea about. Not physically, not physically, just mentally. Just wondering what the fuck is going on. And this episode. I hope the audio documentary will create a bit of clarity around that.

[Rob]

I've never heard of either of these.

[David Farrier]

This is fantastic. This is what I like. I. Weirdly, it came onto my radar because when I was in New York about a year and a half ago, there was a sign on a. It was like a corner store and it just said, kratom, Kratom. Kratom. So many words. Kratom. I took a photo, put it on my Instagram. Instagram said it violated community standards for drug references and drug use and banned me from doing any. Not that I really did them. Banned me from going live for a year.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[David Farrier]

And so my brain hurt your Instagram

[Rob]

account that you stopped going live.

[David Farrier]

It hurt my Instagram.

[Rob]

It's like hurt your brand as a whole.

[David Farrier]

Hurt my brand. But point being, I was amazed that this thing that was for sale in New York, at every second store seemingly Instagram would look at that and go, this is something bad. You shouldn't do this. And that's where I got curious about the legality of the substance, what it was, how many people are using it and what the big deal is.

[Rob]

Yeah, I mean, I. To be transparent, I mean, I don't drink alcohol and I don't partake in drug use. So I'm. I probably am naive when it comes to this. I think stuff regardless. So me not knowing what it is only.

[David Farrier]

Yeah.

[Rob]

Says that I.

[David Farrier]

It's not your world.

[Rob]

It's not my world.

[David Farrier]

You're not thinking. Every new drug that comes out, you're not thinking. I have to give that a go. I need to see what's going on.

[Rob]

Confused by all of them too. They're.

[David Farrier]

Yeah.

[Rob]

There was another one. Someone was telling us about some like tranquilizer thing that people are just drinking and zombies out.

[David Farrier]

There's a lot.

[Rob]

Yeah. And. And also with the progression of weed and marijuana and THC and.

[David Farrier]

Yes. Which here in California.

[Rob]

Popping up everywhere. Yeah.

[David Farrier]

Yeah. I mean you can get services that essentially uber it to your door. It's so commonplace.

[Rob]

And they have like liquids that you can just like squeeze into your drink now too.

[David Farrier]

Mushrooms. I feel like also getting more headlines over here now.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[David Farrier]

Certain states you can legally have mushroom gummies and that kind of thing and. Yeah. I feel like the landscape is changing so quickly. Super confusing. I'm similar to you. I am not a big drug person like New Zealand. I think the thing we're kind of. I don't know, maybe it's a stereotype now, but like weed is out. Like marijuana is our thing. I've desperately tried my entire life to find some type of weed substance that would give me some sort of stress relief or excitement or something. I've tried. My body is just every time. I know this is deeply unpleasant and bad and so I've tried. I think we can't take to it.

[Rob]

I think we're somewhat similar where we like to have control of our faculties.

[David Farrier]

Yeah. Completely.

[Rob]

I don't have any problem with people that partake in it.

[David Farrier]

It is just water down myself as you're speaking.

[Rob]

It's just for me, I don't like lack of control 100% and. But I don't. Don't have any judgment for people that. I know plenty of people that partake in.

[David Farrier]

We're in la.

[Rob]

Marijuana.

[David Farrier]

Surrounded by it.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[David Farrier]

Yeah. I always think of. There's a Bill Hicks quote basically about. It was sort of based around the war on drugs and just the fact that all the great art that you love, all the best albums, all the best films, all the artists that made all that really fucking high on drugs. You remove drugs and probably all your favorite moments of pop culture evaporate and disappear.

[Rob]

Well, there's an amazing story of a baseball pitcher that dropped acid and pitched A no hitter.

[David Farrier]

Oh, I love this.

[Rob]

There, there, let me see.

[David Farrier]

That's a no. Totally no. Please look it up. This. That sounds like a dollop. A dollop episode. Fodder almost.

[Michael]

Let's see.

[Rob]

Okay. Yes. So this was Doc Ellis. He was the pitcher for the Pittsburgh Pirates and he threw a famous no hitter against the Padres in 1970. He was. He later revealed he was on LSD mistakenly thinking he had the day off.

[David Farrier]

That is incredible. The chances of that going well, I imagine every other player could repeat the same thing and have a terrible experience.

[Pat]

Yes.

[David Farrier]

That's amazing. I've tried mushrooms a few times in places where it's legal and that seemed to me, that seemed like a thing that I can understand. I can understand why people enjoy doing it. It's like a lot of laughter. Everything looked kind of elevated. So one thing I could understand really

[Rob]

clearly, I understand people using it therapeutically for stress, anxiety release, to deal with trauma and grief. I mean, we're. Yeah, we're in California. There's places that are doing like ayahuasca trips and.

[David Farrier]

Yeah, ketamine therapy is a huge thing here. I see everywhere now.

[Rob]

I understand the benefits of all of that. And I think for me, when it becomes. I. I think my fear is feeling dependent on any thing completely. And again, that goes back to the control thing. That's why I don't even. I don't even like to mess with it.

[David Farrier]

You don't even have Red Bulls.

[Rosabelle]

No.

[Rob]

No.

[David Farrier]

You get crazy on that matcha. No, you're not a coffee. You're not a big coffee person.

[Rob]

But that said, like, I do, it's because I know my personality is to get really into things and I have my matcha twice a day every day. And it's.

[David Farrier]

I feel that's your thing.

[Rob]

Yeah. I find other. I try to channel my addictive tendencies into either things that are not going to be harmful, consuming on a regular basis, or things that are productive. I mean, that's. It's work. But. But again, like, who's to say that that's any less harmful to my psyche in the long term?

[David Farrier]

They should do studies on your body into the future about what the matcha content is doing to you long term. I'm deeply curious to find out about that.

[Rob]

I. I think about this sometimes. Like the bottom of a matcha, iced matcha. It gets kind of like cakey. And yes, there's substance in the bottom.

[David Farrier]

You can see sediment in there.

[Rob]

I sometimes think that the inside my stomach that just permanently. There's maybe just like layer of caked on Matcha that is never going to leave my system.

[David Farrier]

It reminds me of a thought that has never left my mind where I had a friend that got deeply into health and wellness back in the day when it was sort of first becoming a thing. I'm talking 20 years ago when people were really into this and they were trying to convince me to get, I'm going to say this incorrectly, a colonic irrigation where essentially tube up the bum, shove some coffee and water into your bowels, clean it all out, it all comes out another tube. And their entire reason behind that was they said, david, every time you eat a piece of cheese, a bit of that cheese will get stuck to the lining of your bowels and you need to splash it out, get it out. I've never been able. Even though it's bullshit, I've never been able to throw that thought.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[David Farrier]

And I feel that's what that marcher thought is for you.

[Pat]

Yes.

[David Farrier]

But look, addiction is the reason that Kratom and seven oh, that's kind of the problem here and what we're going to get into because it is highly addictive. And the fact it is sold where you also can buy a bottle of coke and some candy is bottle of

[Rob]

Coca Cola, not cocaine.

[David Farrier]

Yeah, not cocaine.

[Michael]

Okay.

[David Farrier]

So much crossover between like. Yeah, so it's that juxtaposition that I think is super interesting. This thing that is insanely can be insanely addictive and dangerous is also the same thing that is getting me banned from doing Instagram lives just for taking a photo of the word of it. And that's what I wanted to find out about in this week's doc. It's a sunny LA afternoon when I FaceTime with Michael. I've changed his name for this podcast who was sitting in his car somewhere in America's southeast. He was on a lunch break.

[Michael]

It gets unbearably hot at all times. I'm talking like 100% humidity, 90 degrees outside, so there's no relief from the heat. But you take the good with the bad.

[David Farrier]

The reason I want to talk to Michael is that he's had experience using both Kratom and the newest 7 0H, which is rapidly growing in popularity. To give me some context for all this, he tells me that he's a Christian and in general has led a pretty straight edge life. He's never seen himself as a drug guy or a heavy drinker, but he first tried Kratom as a student over a decade ago because he didn't think it was A big deal.

[Michael]

So in college, one of my roommates introduced me to Kratom. Initially, he was like, yo, check this thing out. It's like this plant from East Asia. It's supposed to be like painkillers, whatever, whatever. And that was concentrated Kratom shots. They taste like shit. I mean, they're terrible, but it gets you a nice little buzz. And I tried it once, twice, didn't love it, but I was like, whatever.

[David Farrier]

That all happened back in 2012.

[Michael]

Fast forward to 2019, 2020 pandemic, right after the CBD law passed, where CBD stores exploded everywhere. I was in a gas station one day and saw Kratom. I was like, oh, I remember this stuff. Let me try this again. It was like five bucks at the gas station. I thought, nah, that's not bad. So I was messing around with that for maybe a couple of months. It was nothing. And then when I got into construction, a pretty physically demanding job. So it kind of helps with relieving some pain. I mean, that's its intended purpose. Helps give you a little boost of energy. So I would take it in the mornings, kind of as like a morning coffee type thing, and never really thought too much of it. Thought it was this supplement, a supplement

[David Farrier]

that was actually pretty addictive. He just didn't clock it at the time. From the way he talks about it, it felt like a daily ritual, like having a cigarette or a monster energy drink or something. Now, in low doses, Kratom can act as a stimulant. Higher doses, 5 to 15 grams, have more of a sedating, numbing effect. And at really high doses and taken with other substances, it can be really bad. Hundreds of Kratom users have died, often while using other things as well. And then in 2023, 7. Oh. Flooded the market. Also found at gas stations and corner stores, it features a compound derived from the Kratom plant. That's really. When did you first try the 7? Oh, roughly in 2024.

[Michael]

September 2024. There's the gas station I got it from. They got in seven zero or seven oh, whatever you want to call it. And he was like, hey, this is supposed to be, like, really, really good. And one little package is 20 bucks. And I'm thinking, okay, well, if I can break that up in eight servings, that can last me a while. I can save money doing this, right? Took it and it hit me like a freight train. And it was. I mean, I've broken a bunch of bones. So I've been on Percocet and lortab and all sorts of painkillers. Right? Morphine. And it felt just like that. I remember I was closing a house, and I took it on the way to that closing as a project manager, and I was like, I don't think I can function in this closing. It hit me that hard. It's wild.

[David Farrier]

Michael knows how powerful it was because he's experienced powerful opioids before.

[Michael]

I broke my arm snowboarding when I was early high school. Snapped radius and ulna clean in half. And I was on the top of the mountain, and they have to take you to the hospital at the bottom of the mountain. So they gave me morphine. It feels identical to that. So it's that same sort of full body numbness with a light airiness, head high, mixed with that. The first week or so of taking it. I don't want to make this an ad, but it's. It feels great. But now I get no feeling.

[David Farrier]

He realized he was hooked. I mean, the Kratom had him hooked already. This was just a bigger hook.

[Michael]

I was like, oh, oh, no, this is not good. But it was also nice. Like, it felt fantastic, and it made my day super easy. So I was like, oh, this is cool. By the time I realized I was hooked on these things, it was too late. I mean, it was maybe two weeks later. I was like, okay, I'll stop now. You know, I had my fun, and I went into withdrawals almost immediately.

[David Farrier]

What was happening? What was your body doing?

[Michael]

It took about 12 hours for me to realize it, but throughout the day, I was getting anxious. I was getting a little sweaty. I thought I was just getting sick or something. It was over the winter. I thought I was getting a cold, but then I couldn't sleep, and I was, like, tossing and turning. And the anxiety got worse, and I started sweating more and more, and I started to feel terrible. And I was like, what is happening? And I had another one, and I took another half just to help me sleep, because, I mean, it knocks me out if I take them. So I was like, well, let me take this just to help me sleep. And then everything went away immediately. And I was like, oh, shit, this is not good. So that kind of started my battle of trying to kick this shit. And I have not done well with it, if I'm being honest.

[David Farrier]

I wanted to zoom out a little to understand how this sort of product is just allowed to be sold over the counter here in the United States. So I called Pat awesome from an organization called Partnership to End Addiction.

[Pat]

What we're seeing with 7 oh reminds me of what we saw with vaping and nicotine where, you know, there's been like an arms race to increase the potency of nicotine in vape pension. Similarly with cannabis, right? The potency of THC has gone from like 4% in the 90s and now you can get products that are in 90% or higher in terms of their potency level. And so this is one of those things where I think we're on the cusp of a problem. And part of it, it's hard to get your hands around the data in terms of how many people are even using it. So we have a study from a few years ago that show that 1.6 million people in our country had used it. And yet the Kratom association would say, and this is from a couple years ago, that it's somewhere between 14 and 16 million. But you look at the billion dollar, multi billion dollar market, you have to believe that to get to multi billions, you've got a lot of people that are using the substance. So like I said, the concern is that we're at the tip of the iceberg.

[David Farrier]

That iceberg starts with how available this stuff is. I mean, Kratom's been around for years and years.

[Pat]

It's available in every state and a wildly different kinds of availability because in some states it's banned completely. In other states there's no regulation at all. In some states it's treated as an herbal supplement and others their age restrictions. So it really varies broadly across the country.

[David Farrier]

Then there's the newest seven oh, it's

[Pat]

like the industrial strength version. So in Kratom there are over 40 alkaloids which just think of them as different chemical compounds. Right. And seven OH is one of the compounds in the plant itself is less than 2%. But what's happening in the US is that it's being extracted and made in different formulations, whether it's extracts or shots or powders, whatever, and made available, the belief is that it is 13 times more powerful than morphine and yet available in gas stations and convenience stores and vape shops and online, which is just

[David Farrier]

objectively to me seems fucking crazy.

[Pat]

You might say that. I agree.

[David Farrier]

And right now, 7oh is being marketed heavily, which is probably why I ended up hearing about it in the first place.

[Pat]

So I know people who have gone to say, the local convenience store and all of a sudden there's a promotion that says, gee, if you, you know, you like the Kratom, here are the Kratom products you've been Buying. So why don't you try this? It's a little bit stronger, it might give you a better effect. And they're offering them 7 oh for free. But that often results in ongoing use. And of course, because it has, I've heard it described as opioid, like I've heard it described as an atypical opioid, and I've also heard it described by different researchers as an opioid. So in any event, it attaches to the same receptors in the brain that Percocet, oxycontin, Vicodin and heroin and Fentanyl attached to. And so therefore, the more use, the more likely the person is going to develop dependence and, or an addiction to it.

[David Farrier]

All this begs the question of how bad 7oh is. Exactly. And as I talked to Pat, I discover people come to these products for a variety of reasons.

[Pat]

It depends on the person. So just as you know, there are people that use, you know, method, you know, cocaine, heroin, fentanyl and so forth, and they, they don't overdose. People that are on 7oh can use it without overdosing. In many cases, the overdose deaths that we have seen have been 7 oh in combination with other substances. Right. So a lot of polysubstance use. But that said, there are instances where people have died from seven oh, and people who have died from just using regular Kratom. So the concern is that we don't know exactly what people are taking. This is rapid commercialization. This is going to be at least by Some estimates, a $22 billion market in the US by 2035, double digit growth rate. So people are smelling dollars. Right. And as I, as I said, you know, the guy that I was talking about that was trying to use Kratom to stay away from alcohol ended up spending $1,000 a week on it. So, you know, there's a lot of money to be made. Many people who don't have insurance look at Kratom as a solution for, you know, I can't afford, you know, I don't have insurance coverage, I can't afford to go to a doctor, I can't afford to pay for prescription pain medication. And this is my answer, so don't take it away from me yet. At the same time, you know, there's, like I said, this camp of people that are very worried about what's in it and the addiction properties and so forth. So we desperately need more research to understand what are the therapeutic benefits and what dosing, you know, what should be in the product versus the contaminants. That's another thing that, you know, there's been an alarm raised about is, you know, heavy metals or salmonella or other contaminants in. We just need to know more.

[David Farrier]

Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Shopify. Now, if there's one thing I'm really good at, it is putting off doing something. It might seem like I make a lot of stuff, but there are a load of things that kind of go by the wayside just because I don't start and procrastinate a lot. It's partly to do with my spicy brain. It's partly. It's a whole load of things. Let's not get into that. But essentially, if you're being sitting on a business idea, then Shopify makes it easy to make it happen. And that's what I've realized. You can't do everything on your own. Sometimes you need help. And if there's a tool like Shopify that can help you get your business idea off the ground, I say grab it with both hands and go for it. Because with Shopify, you've got everything you need to start selling included in the product and ready from day one. Something that Shopify does really, really well to help you actually sell your stuff is the checkout. Essentially, it helps more people finish their purchase because a lot of people will have something in the cart and then they'll get distracted. They're not sure if they're going to buy it or not. But with Shopify, when they come back to their cart, their details are already saved. Then just one click and they're done. Any business owner knows that that makes your life a whole lot easier. It's a win for you. It's a win for the customer because they get what they want. So yeah, the checkout. So yeah, the checkout system on Shopify is great. It's essentially a one click checkout. It also works in conjunction with the Shop app, which allows you to see all stores on Shopify's platform. You might be introduced to your next big obsession yourself. Also a Shopify growth. Because Shopify handles getting your stuff started and the checkout, you've got more time to focus on growing your business. And Shopify gives you so many of the tools to do that. That's why having the right platform like Shopify is critical. You don't want to spend all your time trying to fix mistakes and figure out how to do that. You want to spend your Time in the sun, enjoying these precious moments with the people that you like, not troubleshooting stuff. So Shopify helps you with all that stuff. And yeah, if you're still wondering, Shopify is behind millions of businesses worldwide, from household names to small outfits that are just getting started. That could be you next. With Shopify, nothing stands between your idea and a real business. So go make it one. If you're ready to stop putting off your business and start hearing, then you're ready for Shopify. Start your free [e-mail] bird today. You heard that right. Start your free trial [e-mail] bird that's shopify.com bird support for flightless Bird comes from Zazzle. Now, recently, I got a birthday present for a friend who is obsessed with Sesame Street. I found a place where I could get them a custom mug with their name, their favorite character, the Cookie Monster. And I got that care of Zazzle, which has been sorting out a whole bunch of my gifts lately. I have friends who are obsessed with Marvel stuff and Star wars stuff. They've got some of those products licensed, and you can put your favorite characters on a variety of different things. It's like the perfect gift. I'm on a big mug buzz at the moment, but there are T shirts, pillows, all sorts of things. Basically, I've always had a problem where three days out from my birthday, I panic and I realize I have nothing on my mind and I don't know where to get things. If you have that problem, then Zazzle fixes that as well because you can just dive on there and you can find something for your friend really, really quickly. Essentially, it's a custom marketplace where you can take basically any product. Like I said earlier, a mug, a tote bag, a card, a phone case, and make it mean something. You're not buying a gift, you're making one. It's that customizable. You can browse millions of designs easily, or you can start entirely from scratch and build something completely your own. Either way, you're the designer. Everything is made on demand, so there's no out of stock. You pick it, you customize it, and you are all done.

[Rosabelle]

Done.

[David Farrier]

I've just put a Marvel pillowcase in my bag and good God, my friend is going to love this. I'd also like you to know that while I'm reading this ad, Rob's dog, Huxley is looking up at me lovingly. I am dog sitting, and I think I might get Huxley a gift, too. What do you like Huxley? I feel he might be like a Grogu guy right now. Save 25% on your first order at zazzle.com that's 25% savings on your first order at zazzlez.com go make somethings amazing zazzle.com your summer runs just got a

[Pat]

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[David Farrier]

Devil's advocate on behalf of the commercial entities that are selling this stuff to people. Is there any, are there any positives in a708 or kratom product? Is the fact that it might help people get off stronger opioids and tailor off? Is there anything that you see that is positive about this trend at all?

[Pat]

So there certainly are people from an anecdotal perspective who have said that they were able to get off of opioids using Kratom. I wonder though, are you trading one kind of opioid for another? Right. So there's that issue. And again, we have FDA approved products including Suboxone, Buprenorphine, Naltrexone. Right. And methadone as things that have a proven track record. So rather than risk it, I would rather see people go with the FDA approved medications than to try and do it yourself. Program with Kratom with seven. Oh.

[David Farrier]

And that brings us back to Michael, who feels so alone in all this.

[Michael]

No one knows that I'm on this stuff. I keep it secret. It's shameful to be addicted to gas station heroin, you know what I mean?

[David Farrier]

And how much are you taking currently? What does your day or week look like?

[Michael]

They're 50 milligram tablets and that's a 30 pack. I'll go through one of these a day. The bad thing is it's just like any drug, once you start building a tolerance, you gotta increase and increase and increase to not get high. Because I don't get high off of it anymore. It's to avoid withdrawals because that's the other thing with the seven. Oh. Your body burns it off within six hours. It's got a six hour half life. So, you know, you take a dose in the morning. By the afternoon you're starting the early stages of withdrawal.

[David Farrier]

This seems like a crazy high amount. So I checked in with Pat again.

[Pat]

So generally speaking, I would say that that is an extremely high dose compared to what most people are doing. But then again, the questions I would ask are, you know, is that actually what he's getting? Because we're finding that in many cases what is. Because it's not regulated. Right. What's in the pack may not be what is actually reported on the package. Right. And then I think it's important to know, you know, is it 50 milligrams of actual 7? Oh, is it 50 milligrams of maybe a Kratom extract blend or active alkaloids? What other fillers are in there? So I'd have a whole bunch of questions. But nevertheless, you know, high doses like that, the concern being that it leads to the same kind of sedation that you can see with opioids, and you can end up having an overdose and. Or a seizure or liver problems, et cetera.

[David Farrier]

Okay, back to Michael, who, whatever dose that he's taking is still taking a lot. As far as trying to get off this stuff, what are you doing currently? Have you talked to professionals or rehab or your doctor?

[Michael]

Yeah. So there is a outpatient rehab where I live that I've been involved with. They're fantastic. And they'll give you, you know, I asked for a Suboxone, but that's kind of like, you know, nailing a picture with a sledgehammer. It's trading one bad thing for another, in my view. But I've tried the outpatient rehab. I've tried online resources, and nothing seems to stick for me.

[David Farrier]

Unfortunately, he's tried and failed several times to get off this. He came close, but he couldn't make it stick.

[Michael]

There's a couple of different methods. Cold turkey is the tried and true. You stop taking it, you white knuckle it for three, four days, it's going to be an absolute hell. And then you come out on the other side and you just work through it. There's some other things you can backslide into regular Kratom to take the edge off and then go from there. So the most successful time was about a week that I was off of it, and I did that by tapering off of it. I took about two weeks and reduced my intake daily and then went cold turkey, went through hell for three days. You know, I just said I had the flu and then was off of it. I can take those three days. It's the. What they call paws. Paws Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome. That really kicks your ass, man. It is. I mean, just Depression, anxiety, you feel just muted, you're not sleeping. I mean, the insomnia can last like two weeks. And I've got a five year old and a one year old and not sleeping is not an option for me. So it's, it's insidious. It just traps you.

[David Farrier]

This stacks up with everything Pat says too.

[Pat]

If you are using a relatively low dose and you want to get off of it, you can taper off of it. And by tapering, you know, it might be 10% going down, maybe 10% a week or so. You may need some comfort medications and you might need some clonidine to help those people who have been using higher dosing levels and especially 7oh products may actually need to go into a medically supervised detox. Doesn't mean it has to be inpatient, could probably be outpatient, but there you're going to use something like Suboxone, Buprenorphine to slowly taper off of it and it may take a week to 10 days, something like that, to, to taper off of it. That said, I actually was speaking to a woman whose son is now in his second rehab. He had been doing well for a while and then relapsed after 90 days, then did well for a while longer, relapsed after 30 days. And so there is a strong pull for it.

[Michael]

My day to day, it doesn't really negatively affect me while I'm taking it. Like I'm pretty with it, pretty successful in my job. My family doesn't know that I'm on this stuff. So my interactions with my family isn't affected with my kids or anything like that. So immediate effects, there's no real negative outside of the money that I'm spending on this, which is a fortune. But one of these is a hundred bucks. Now I make good money, so it's not like it's bankrupting me by any means, but I tell you, I wish I wasn't spending 100 bucks a day on this.

[David Farrier]

And again, many users like Michael are alone in this. They've tried to stop, they know they need to, but it's so, so hard. Does your family or your partner or sort of anyone close to you know about this?

[Michael]

No, only strangers I've reached out to and tried to form bonds, accountability partners, things like that. So no, no one in my immed knows or really in my life.

[David Farrier]

What do you feel is stopping you from talking to your partner or people closer to you about this? Is it the shame factor?

[Michael]

Yeah, no, absolutely it is shame for sure. Sorry, I'm gonna get a little emotional here, but, you know, I'm a father, a husband, and just the fact that I've got this secret that is so devastating to my life, and I can't feel like I can share it. It's just. This is the first time I've talked to someone face to face about it and the true depths of where I'm at. And, yeah, it's. It's all shame.

[David Farrier]

You might be surprised at how well people take it around you. I don't know. You know, this shit can build up, man, and it can. It might be less of a barrier than you think, but I can only imagine how fucking tough it is and infinite respect for you trying to feel this out, you know, it's insidious, especially

[Michael]

trying to be a role model, you know, to my boys, wanting the best for them and knowing that this is out there and in a couple of years, they may stumble across it. I know I've got to warn them and warn as many people as I can not touch. Come across this.

[David Farrier]

I've been planning to try some of this stuff for the episode. A small dose of Kratom is probably not the end of the world, but I'd become curious about what a really strong whack of seven oh would feel like. What did Pat say? 13 times more powerful than morphine. And the more I hear about it, I think, no, no, seven oh, for me first, don't try it.

[Michael]

Tell your friends not to try it. Because even if you're responsible, even if you're like, I'm gonna take it once and never try it again, I would not want you to experience the same thing I'm experiencing. And one taking it once could lead to that. And if you can avoid it, do it.

[David Farrier]

In the middle of all this, though, in his shame, in his angst, in his habit, I found it surprising how Michael thought about the regulation of this drug in general. And in his closing words to me, I guess this is what America is wrestling with right now.

[Michael]

Yes, I've been thinking about that. My initial reaction is, obviously, ban it immediately. Ban it. This cannot be available. But then I've talked to people in rehab or online who have, let's say, chronic pain, right? Or they deal with a severe issue, but they don't have health insurance, they don't have a way to go to the doctor. They don't have, you know, support, and they're able to take this in moderation. People shouldn't be punished for my inability to take this in moderation.

[Rosabelle]

Right.

[Michael]

And I'M a firm believer in that for anything. So I know Florida, the state of Florida outright banned it. They scheduled it a. The same thing as a, you know, regular painkillers and immediately went off the shelves. And I know that caused chaos in Florida. People were hooked on it who didn't have access anymore. And suddenly people are going through withdraws. And I know that's terrible. So an outright immediate ban. I don't know if I can get behind that. Certainly more warnings. I know John Oliver did a piece. Hopefully, you know, when this comes out, more people will be aware of it. But awareness, I think, is our first defense against this thing. Everyone's situation is going to be different. Like I said, people are using this responsibly, whatever that looks like. So who am I to say they can't do that, right? But I can only say if this can happen to me, it can happen to anyone.

[Rosabelle]

This summer, say I do.

[Rob]

I am marrying a stranger like never before.

[David Farrier]

Am I crazy?

[Rosabelle]

It's a whole new Married at First Sight on Peacock with new experts. My name is Dr. Lisa.

[Michael]

My name is Paul Brunson.

[Rosabelle]

More couples. This could be the start of a new, very successful marriage. And Lord surprises.

[Pat]

Or maybe not everything is just not enough.

[David Farrier]

You're a little bit crazy.

[Rosabelle]

I don't know what's gonna happen.

[Pat]

I want my fairytale ending.

[Rosabelle]

Married at First Sight now streaming new episodes Thursdays only on Peacock.

[Michael]

What if I told you you only have 12 hours to legally have sex?

[Pat]

To Finding True Love or just Like a Good Guy?

[Michael]

From the director of Easy A and Anyone but yout.

[Pat]

This whole thing is nuts.

[David Farrier]

There's nothing traditional about this, Lane.

[Michael]

On August 7th, the clock starts on the summer's biggest rom com.

[Rosabelle]

I'm Owen. Allie.

[David Farrier]

What about you and me?

[Michael]

Monica Barbaro. Callum Turner.

[David Farrier]

I've been told I'm a seven.

[Rosabelle]

By who? Your mom?

[Michael]

Nah, she thinks I'm a ten. One night only. Rated R. Only in theaters August 7th.

[David Farrier]

Yeah, giant. Thanks to Michael for talking to me about that. I think it takes a lot of courage when you haven't talked to anyone just to even put your voice out there. It's. It's insane. This episode just made me think it's more insane than what I thought it might be.

[Rob]

Yeah, and I think it's.

[David Farrier]

It's fucking crazy.

[Rob]

The fact that you can get it at a gas station and it's. He said 13 times more powerful than morphine.

[David Farrier]

That's what some stats have it at. And how. And again, unregulated, so doses are different Every time. But that's how high it can get. And you can see, I mean my only experience with opioid like products, when I messed up my back, I took something called Tramadol and for me I could absolutely see the appeal of that. I felt like I was in described like as a warm bath. I just felt much more chill, my mouth was dry as it was hard to talk. But I got the appeal. And that was a tiny dose of an opioid esque substance.

[Rob]

Well, it's interesting too the fact that it's sold at a gas station a lot of places. No age limit, no just what assumptions you have about a product at that point of well, this must be safe.

[David Farrier]

That must be safe.

[Rob]

This, they must have done the checks on this. The research must, must have been in place.

[David Farrier]

Yeah.

[Michael]

This can only be seen across it.

[Rob]

So harm, harmful. If I can add this with gas

[David Farrier]

at the pump completely. I think that you're not, you're not getting it from some dicey back alley. You're getting it where you get candy and milk and bread.

[Rob]

You're not getting from a weed shop, you're not from a drug dealer. It's a gas station.

[David Farrier]

And this has also been going on for a while. You know, I thought this had cropped up recently, but these products have been out for a while and have been refining themselves and obviously more and more people getting on them some. You know, and I was thinking, you know, I still think probably be a more clickable episode if at the beginning of this episode we had had a shot of seven. Oh. But after talking to these people I'm like, no, no.

[Rob]

I mean this story is exactly why. Yeah, I've always been hesitant, hesitant to diamond. I mean I was afraid of substances because I can imagine this trajectory and want to avoid it at all costs because it's devastating and seeing the repercussions and the havoc that causes trying to avoid that.

[David Farrier]

The amounts that Michael was paying, you know, over $100 a day, what it's done to his body and brain, the fact that he now doesn't feel it but if he stops taking it, that's the problem.

[Rob]

Well, that was insane when he said that he's only taking it to stop the withdrawal symptoms from coming and it is just sustaining baseline, which is, yeah,

[David Farrier]

just a horrific concept to me. And he can afford to do it, but a lot of people can't. The thing where it gets complicated is this thing where in the United States you have a bunch of people with various chronic pain, pains and they can't get help. And this is a way for them to get it in a way that they think is completely safe. Again, it's sold at a corner store, therefore it must be safe. And then you run into all these other problems with it.

[Rob]

Well, I think it just highlights kind of systematic issues in this country as a whole of one, like regulation and trust that we have, that the systems in place are looking out in our best interest and not just trying to make money and healthcare and people getting care they need if they do have chronic pain and that it's not just going to wreck them financially completely.

[David Farrier]

And you're getting something per option. Yeah, getting something that is completely unregulated. We literally don't know what the dose is and the product you're getting.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[David Farrier]

Speaking of the idea of getting it for this episode for us to take, probably couldn't do it anyway. Press release, March 3rd. Gavin and Newsom announces prohibition of illegal Kratom products. So this is from back in March. Continuing the state's comprehensive efforts to crack down on dangerous and illegal drugs from store shelves, Newsom announced today a 95% compliance rate from California businesses. With the removal of Kratom products from California businesses, agents have removed 3,300 kratom and 7 oh products. So that's not like individual like packets. That's different brands of kratom and 7 oh. And that's the other crazy thing. There are so many variances of this thing. Often the packaging on the pills. And John Oliver did do a really good piece on this and he mentioned something that we hadn't mentioned in our doc, where the packaging is essentially just like all different packaging promising different things is stamped on top of exactly the same pills.

[Rob]

And it's all marketing, too.

[David Farrier]

It's all marketing chaos.

[Rob]

Yeah. I mean, not to sound like a total idiot, but even, even like, welcome to my world C versus cbd. When we. When you start breaking down the marijuana plant into its different components and this part of it does this, this part of it does that. Now we're talking about these supplements that are different components of that. In that the everyday user strolling into a gas station and buying this and saying that this is going to help me with my chronic pain is meant to be informed completely of which pieces of this are doing what for you and at what levels and what's healthy and what's not.

[David Farrier]

It's completely Wild west territory. And again, even the fact that when you and I and Roosevelt were driving around Texas that we're seeing signage all over the place and yet in la there's nothing. New York there's something. But apparently Facebook bans you for posting about it. It's just wildly unregulated and unclear what the fuck is going on. And I think it comes back to that central point you said, which is you just make an assumption. I make an assumption that anything I buy from a corner store will be safe for me.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[David Farrier]

And the fact this is there. Yeah, it's mind blowing to me.

[Rob]

Which goes all the way down to like the type of processed foods we're getting from grocery stores too.

[David Farrier]

And I mean that's another episode.

[Rob]

Conversations around microplastics.

[David Farrier]

And yeah, it's like I feel like this is the most extreme version of this argument, but you're right, you can take it down to just the amount of processed shit we're eating, which is something I have to think about because I love processed foods. And I'm having to remind myself that that's not how humans naturally eat.

[Rob]

Yeah. Even today I was reading that Trump is removing there's chemicals that have cancer risks that he's allowing back into our food supply.

[David Farrier]

Oh great.

[Rob]

Yeah, they approve more forever chemicals.

[David Farrier]

No words. Yeah. It would be nice if things were improving. And when you sort of see us taking steps backwards, really annoying.

[Rob]

Well, and it's hard too. Most people don't have the privilege of being able to care enough that no what's being put in their bread isn't gonna harm them long term. It's just this is gonna be the cheapest thing at the grocery store or the one my kid elite.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[David Farrier]

The thing that'll make my kid happy. There's a reason fast food does well. It's like cheap.

[Rob]

And to not have institutions higher up that are looking out for the well being and not just making things quick and cheap and to maximize profits, which

[David Farrier]

is what a massive part of America is all about. Right. It's just like maximizing profit. Which brings us back to this massive billion dollar industry that is Kratom and seven. Oh yeah. I reached out to the New Zealand Drug foundation just to quickly find out what the Kratom situation was. Because I feel increasingly out of touch with New Zealand. I thought maybe Kratom is everywhere there as well. It's not. There's a little bit of Kratom in New Zealand they said, but definitely not to the extent open availability like you see in the us It's a bit of a gray market product that's usually sold as a herbal remedy, but varies wildly in contents and quality, which is similar to America. There's been some elements of seeing Kratom in powder form in New Zealand. There will no doubt be some of the drink products out there that people are brought back from overseas, but they're not common and we're not seeing a lot of it in New Zealand. The drug foundation mentioned to me that it's most likely being sourced online. Maybe that is my next career move. Next time I go to New Zealand, I just take a suitcase load of seven. Oh. See how that goes. I mean, hopefully you might want to

[Rob]

tell you about that on the podcast.

[David Farrier]

No, it's a joke on the podcast. Don't do that. That was a joke. Terrible idea. If you have any experiences. Terrible medium. Or maybe you've had a positive experience with it, although I don't imagine there's many of those stories around. Flightless bird chatmail.com I'm really curious if anyone listening to today's show has had experiences. Maybe you're using it right now. I'm just really curious to know what you think of it, why you started taking it and what your situation is now. Because obviously not all of the users will be in as much of a dire situation as Michael was, but I'd like to sort of get an indication of that. Flightless breadchatmail.com Jay wrote in with further feedback on the Titanic Panic episode. This episode really seems to be getting a lot of people talking, which I didn't expect.

[Rob]

People are very passionate about the Titanic.

[David Farrier]

They really are. One thing you missed out, that is, I think, a huge episode that I think helps spread Titanic fever amongst us millennials was the Titanic Expedition tour that's been circling around the US for decades. It's got a website, thetitanicexhibhibition.com if you want to sponsor this show, get in touch. I'm 35, born in 91, from St. Louis. Louise St. Louis.

[Rob]

St. Louis.

[David Farrier]

St. Louis, say St. Louis. I got two wrong options and saw this exhibit not once but twice. Both times I believe we're on vacation, but once might have been here. Probably an insanely popular field trip for 90s kids and was a popular pop up exhibit at science and history museums. A lot of the exhibit is artifacts from passengers, which I think is part of Titanic's stickiness in our hearts and also tied up in this memes. Millennials love memes and millennials love Titanic. Somehow standing at the front of a boat with your arms spread out was an IRL meme before online memes existed. I think Titanic was perfectly timed to capture the specifically peak millennials like your interviewee on the episode and myself, older millennials like you, David, fuck you might not get it. And I think that's a good, that

[Rob]

is a good point.

[David Farrier]

I think it's really fair. Yeah, I think it's a really, really good point.

[Rob]

Some of this is all just about timing completely.

[David Farrier]

Carrie wrote in inviting me to her wedding. I have two friends. No, not her wedding, their friend's wedding. Let me read the email, we'll figure it out together. I have two friends, one from New Zealand and one from America. My friend thinks that David is a national treasure. Thanks, Carrie's friend. I don't know if this is episode worthy, but he moved to New Zealand for her and their wedding is going to be in the greater LA area. She would love David to be a guest at her wedding and I couldn't resist reaching out on the off chance he would accept. It's a very interesting courtship slash proposal. So if David is interested, let me know and I'll get in touch. I have two reactions to that. Number one, could be a fun episode, maybe a fusion, a sexual and romantic and spiritual fusion of a New Zealander and an American. The other thing, I don't like weddings. I find them this entire day, sometimes two days, taken out of the calendar, spoiled, can't be on your phone, can't do anything else. You're stuck with a bunch of strangers you don't know, often having to travel long distances to a place that's expensive.

[Rob]

It's a relevant topic right now though. Weddings, given what just took place in New York.

[David Farrier]

The giant Trevor, Kelsey.

[Rob]

Kelsey.

[David Farrier]

Kelsey.

[Rob]

The TNT wedding. Huge surprise wedding at Madison Square Garden.

[David Farrier]

Madison Square. I was just watching. I just wrapped the latest season of Hacks and a big plot line was the main comedian getting a headline spot at Madison Square Garden and how hard it was to get a slot at Madison Square Garden.

[Rob]

Not that hard to.

[David Farrier]

Not that hard there.

[Rob]

If you're Taylor Swift.

[David Farrier]

It's fascinating. I am scared to talk about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey Fair because of all the things I've talked about. That is the thing where I get made to feel very bad. I'm just gonna say

[Rob]

it was a funny cultural moment.

[David Farrier]

It was a huge cultural moment.

[Rob]

Especially was huge seeing and knowing a few people that were at the wedding.

[David Farrier]

Oh, completely. Instagram feed was a lot of people, some that have been on the show, some people that I've known back in New Zealand, involved in the music world that were all posting photos, looking very dapper, very beautiful with a Taylor Swift song paired to the post saying oh great.

[Rob]

Celebrating love.

[David Farrier]

Celebrating love.

[Rob]

Which I told you you should have posted our Magic Castle photo.

[David Farrier]

I should have asked Both in suits.

[Rob]

We were in suits.

[David Farrier]

Would have been a funny post with for those that got the reference. Love is important. Love is good.

[Rob]

It seemed maybe too niche though and too specific to L A. I don't know that it was that normal. A bunch of people that have friends posting in suits that went to Taylor Swift's wedding.

[David Farrier]

The Onion did a really fun parody where they were talking about how the wedding tour is about to take off and the wedding will next be in LA, Texas, etc. But look, we wish the lovebirds all the best and may when I get married one day, may my wedding be as lush and well attended as theirs. A lot of people wrote in about the gnats and fruit flies in my apartment. I don't remember what episode I mentioned this on, but I have a huge problem. David wrote Jenna, regarding the fruit flies in your apartment. I believe they are fungus gnats. Horrible thinking.

[Rob]

That's not what you want to hear.

[David Farrier]

I've been struggling with them coming up from the soil of my houseplants. I've been battling with them for about a year and I refuse to give up. Basically, a bunch of listeners wrote in saying that when you buy a new plant, you can sometimes bring in the eggs and the larvae. It's one or the other, I don't know which, in the top layer of soil and they just keep on breeding. So I'm currently looking at products to buy that will kill them. Also considering

[Rob]

the plants, just leaving it,

[David Farrier]

putting them out for another family to grow from the side of the road

[Rob]

and deal with just embracing the gnats.

[David Farrier]

Have you considered my house? And there's inevitably there's one a day that will like land on me or fly into me and I'm like, you little. In fact, they're fungus gnats as well. Yeah, not happy about that, Megan wrote in New York. Trash Feedback Random here, but I did my master's thesis on the network of trash and wanted to share. The reason New York wasn't on the list of most waste and landfills is because they ship out their trash either to other states or even other countries. There's surprisingly a big economy around waste management. Michigan is ranked number one on that list because Canada ships a lot of their waste to Michigan.

[Rob]

Okay, that makes more sense. It's not just Michigan being wasteful, it's that they're importing waste.

[David Farrier]

Yes, I've Been thinking a lot, Rob, lately about the importance of context and how I think, especially in a very busy world, context is lost all the time. This is a perfect example.

[Rob]

Yes, yes, yes.

[David Farrier]

Of that. I never thought about trash being shipped not just around the country, but overseas and vice versa.

[Rob]

I mail you my trash sometimes. You do, you do in a box.

[David Farrier]

Also in regards to recycling, Justin wrote in. There was once a show on HBO called Bullshit. It featured Penn and Teller. They debunked communist beliefs. It was over a decade before the age of misinformation we live in now and seemed very evidence based. They did an episode on recyc recycling and in the end I think it was maybe glass and aluminium that were worth it, but the rest weren't. Question mark. I'd have to re watch it to see.

[Rob]

Yeah. I was afraid to bring up recycling

[David Farrier]

because the possibilities that it's not as good as we think it is.

[Rob]

Right. Because I've heard that. I don't know the facts behind that.

[David Farrier]

No.

[Rob]

And it's gotta be doing some good.

[David Farrier]

I look, I think we should do a separate recycling episode. Just gonna say it it I'm keen. And finally, endless people writing in saying we need to go to Chili's. We're going to do it. Rob and I are planning it. Chili's is not close to where we live in la, but we're going to make a drive. Angela says, I love the episode idea about Chili's. My first date with my now husband was at a Chili's. Sixteen years later, we look back and laugh at how kitschy it is. I'd also like you to do an episode on public libraries. We like public libraries even though public libraries are all over the world. US libraries. I can't say library.

[Rob]

Hard time with that.

[David Farrier]

Yeah, library.

[Rob]

You get American when you say it.

[David Farrier]

Yeah. I really struggle with that word. I've worked in a large public library System for over 21 years and has seen some crazy shit. Thank you, Angela. I also like the idea of a library. I love libraries. I need to figure out how to make it a compelling episode. Angela, you may be the solution for that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Rob]

You need to find a dark hole to go.

[David Farrier]

A strange story within the library.

[Rob]

Yeah.

[David Farrier]

I actually found out sort of separate dark strange hole. The pool I used to swim at in Dark Strange Hole sort of relates to that. I've got a lot of thoughts flying around in my mind at the moment. The pool I used to swim at regularly in New Zealand, I would often get in there. I'd get nude in there. I'D get changed, I'd shower all sorts.

[Rob]

You get nude in the pool.

[David Farrier]

Okay, to be clear. No in the locker room. Okay, yes, that would be in a criminal offense.

[Rob]

Yeah, you can do that in New Zealand.

[David Farrier]

No, in New Zealand pools you need to have covering the bathing suit, covering the genitals and the breasts. Now there's someone convicted recently of taking hundreds of thousands of. Actually I exaggerated thousands of photos in the locker rooms of my pool in New Zealand in the changing rooms of over, I think 400 different people.

[Rob]

And so are you in that?

[David Farrier]

I haven't got the list of names. I imagine that's privileged within the courts. But I, I read that and I thought, well, I wonder.

[Rob]

This is like your Cecil Hotel story

[David Farrier]

all over Cecil of like doing a thing and then years later finding out something awful had been happening there at that time. Ian, good to know he's been caught, he's been banned. So if you were swimming at one of my favorite pools in Newmarket pool and you're in the locker, I like to think you're safer than you were before.

[Rob]

Is it like the Barton Springs of New Zealand or.

[David Farrier]

No, not at all. It's an indoor Olympic sized swimming pool. I'm a big fan. They've got a great steam room, they've got a great sauna. Huge fan. Not a fan of being potentially taking photos of naked. But hey, we've all got buddies, don't we? You know, he was. I'm not going to go on a spiel trying to make it all okay. It's not okay to do what this man did. We will see you next week. If you want any feedback, we have flightless bird, chatmail.com or we're on Patreon if you want.

[Rob]

You want a bonus episode?

[David Farrier]

We do bonus episodes every week. We've got different chat channels. The community there is really beautiful and amazing and they're currently over there giving us ideas for what tattoo you and I are both going to get. Rob, because we reached 2,000 members.

[Rob]

We also, we finally made a little bit of headway on our history teacher audition process.

[David Farrier]

Yeah, we had hundreds of history teachers write in saying, we would like to be your history buff.

[Rob]

So on Patreon, we've, we've gone through the audition process a little bit and that's an episode. So.

[David Farrier]

Yeah, that sounds interesting to you? Yeah, I'm getting some, I'm meeting some history teachers and getting some insane bits of US history. Pretty fucking funny.

[Rob]

Which will eventually bleed over into the main feed as, as episodes where David learns about the Boston Tea Party.

[David Farrier]

Yeah, there's just been instances where I feel I have huge gaps and the search for a really fun person to come on and fill me in on that. And you who's listening? That's the plan.

[Rob]

Well, I mean the impetus of the show too was things that I took for granted that are just known you have no idea about. And I think within just schooling and history here there are things that seem like oh David has to know about this.

[David Farrier]

Just just the piece of feedback we had recently about an iconic thing ingrained into a lot of Americans kids brains about a spliced slave ship that was a huge part of educated. There's so much here that is just iconic that I have no idea about.

[Rob]

I'm excited to you as a grown

[David Farrier]

man to learn since you're going back

[Rob]

to school the elementary school level history

[David Farrier]

lessons and it's all, I understand it's all going to be mind blowing. Like that's the thing, it's this entire alternate history and also I'm just curious the way it's taught as well and like what is highlighted anyway. Flightless Bird Chat gmail.com Love your feedback. Love to hear from you. And we will see you next week.

[Rob]

See you next week.

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[Rob]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back.

[David Farrier]

So I thought it would be fun

[Rob]

if we made $15bill but it turns

[David Farrier]

out that's very illegal.

[Rob]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Pat]

of $45 for three months, $90 for

[Rosabelle]

six months or $180 for a 12

[Pat]

month plan required $15 per month equivalent

[Rosabelle]

to taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy.

[Pat]

See terms.