Wisconsin: Cheeseheads

Summary

Flightless Bird Podcast: "Wisconsin: Cheeseheads" Host: David Farrier | Cohost: Rob (and guests) | Release Date: April 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, David Farrier, a New Zealand journalist living in America, embarks on a cheese-fueled journey to Madison, Wisconsin—the heartland of cheese and home to the iconic “cheeseheads.” With cohost Rob (a Chicagoan with strong sports loyalties), they explore Wisconsin’s deep cheese culture, the legacy of the Green Bay Packers, and David’s immersion into the World Championship Cheese Contest. The episode is a blend of quirky culture, culinary passion, and Midwestern pride, offering both personal stories and expert insights from the world of cheese.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Cheesehead Phenomenon

• Night Cheese Confessions: The episode opens with light-hearted banter about eating cheese late at night. Both Hayden and Rob confess their love for "night cheese," with Hayden admitting, "I had maybe eight slices of cheese last night." (00:36)
• Origins of 'Cheesehead': David and his guests unpack the meaning behind “cheesehead”—a term used for Wisconsinites, and especially Green Bay Packers fans, who famously wear oversized foam cheese hats. (01:26)
• Sports & Cheese Intertwined: The relationship between the Green Bay Packers, their cheesehead supporters, and Wisconsin’s dairy legacy leads David to marvel at what makes American sports culture so quirky and fun. (07:50)

  "It's like fun. I feel like sometimes Americans take their sport too seriously. Here's a team that just puts on a big silly hat and goes, hey, we're having fun." —David (07:50)

2. Wisconsin & Regional Rivalries

• Packers vs. Bears: Rob delves into his disdain for the Packers as a Bears fan, giving background on the Packers as a community-owned team:

  "They're the only franchise that's owned and sustained by the fans. In 1922 they organized a public stock sale and raised enough capital to create the Green Bay Football Corporation." —Rob (11:06)

• Midwestern Culture: From airport souvenirs to the prominence of cows and cheese, David is struck by Wisconsin’s unapologetic dairy and drinking culture. (09:07)

3. Cheese in Daily Life

• Preparation Rituals: The cast debates the merits of cheese cubes vs. slices, and how cheese eating is deeply personal:

  "No, because cheese is personal. It's whatever you like." —Ben Smith, judge (29:38)

• Cheese in the Family: Rob shares family anecdotes, including his status as the sole cheese-eater in a lactose-intolerant household. (04:39)

4. Madison and Wisconsin Towns

• City Vibe: Madison is described as a beautiful, energetic city, with both hosts praising its vibe and iconic Capitol building.
• Cultural Landmarks: David mentions visiting Milwaukee, references the Jeffrey Dahmer case, and notes sites like the Fonz statue. Madison’s free zoo and veterans’ museum also make an impression. (14:46, 15:10)

5. The World Championship Cheese Contest

• Event Snapshot: David attends the contest, describing a “large room with a lot of tables, a lot of cheese. I can smell the cheese in the air.” (19:36)
• Judging Process: Experts from Whole Foods (Kathy Strange) and Hilmar Cheese (Ben Smith) detail cheese judging criteria, from flavor profiles to cheese science. Notable details include:
  • Four ingredients of cheese: milk, culture, salt, and enzymes. (26:13)
  • Palate cleansing between tastings, and preferences for spring’s fresh cheeses. (27:02)
  • Regional cheddar descriptions—US cheddars vary from fruity West Coast to acidic Midwest to sulfury Vermont. (28:52)
• Cheesemonger Perspectives: Will from Fromagination, a top Madison cheese shop, shares the day-to-day passion and skill of “cheese people”—humble, smart, community-oriented. (17:36)

  "[Cheese people] are very humble... but they are wicked smart... Kind is one word I would use to describe Wisconsin cheese people." —Will (17:53)

6. Generational Cheese and Cheese Education

• Steve, the “elder statesman” of cheese: Shares family history and pride in Wisconsin cheese, from limestone-watered dairy to the Wisconsin Master Cheesemaker program:

  "Cheese making is not just time and material, it's, it's a passion. ... If you don't have the passion, your cheese will be mediocre." —Steve (33:43)

• Do Americans get sick of cheese? Steve: “I eat cheese every day... probably not the best for me, but I do it anyway and I enjoy it." (34:09)

7. Global Cheese & Winners

• Contest Results: Top cheese comes from the Netherlands (“Beemster Royale Grand Cru”), with Switzerland claiming runner-up prizes. (34:20)
• Wisconsin’s Cheese Bragging Rights: Steve touts the region's milk, water, and environment for producing “the best cheese in America.” (32:58)

8. Cheeseheads and Cheese Crime

• Cheese Heists: Rob brings up bizarre stories of cheese theft, from the “Brooklyn Cheese Bandits” to $875,000 in Parmesan wheels stolen in Italy, and a Wisconsin case where a truckload of cheese was stolen and resold in New Jersey.

  "Cheese is the most stolen food on earth. 4% of the world's cheese supply goes missing annually." —Rob (42:15)

• Cultural Insights: Bar food (deep-fried cheese curds), massive public cheese samples, and the region’s polite Midwestern ethos are discussed.

9. Regional Niceness & Social Gradients

• From Wisconsin to Chicago: Rob and David explore the gradient from utmost Midwestern politeness in Wisconsin to a more “abrupt” but friendly Chicago, then to the cosmopolitan mix of LA and the brusque reputation of New York/Boston. (40:19)

10. Listener Feedback & Miscellaneous

• Puzzle Rental Business: Discussion of renting puzzles for older relatives, prompting the hosts’ trademark banter about puzzling, herbs vs. spices, and listener-sent stories. (48:47)
• Goosebumps Jersey: Rob is tickled to hear that the Columbus soccer team sports a Goosebumps-themed jersey, tying in with an earlier R.L. Stine episode. (50:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On cheese addiction:

  "I have night cheeses every night ... I want to actually lose a little bit of weight, but I can't stop eating my night cheeses." —Hayden (00:36)

• On Packers’ charm:

  "The more you talk about them, the more I think they're probably my team." —David (11:32) "No, don't say that." —Rob (11:35)

• On cheese judging:

  "Cheese is personal. It's whatever you like...Cheddar cheese melted on top of your hot apple [pie]... Oh my God. It blows your mind. Trust me. Try it." —Ben Smith (29:38)

• On cheese passion:

  "Cheese making is not just time and material, it's, it's a passion. If you don't have the passion, your cheese will be mediocre." —Steve (33:43)

• Re: cheese theft:

  "Cheese is the most stolen food on earth. 4% of the world's cheese supply goes missing annually, it's the most stolen food on the planet." —Rob (42:15)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:36 — Hayden and Rob on “night cheese” confessions.
• 01:26 — Cheeseheads, Packers, and Wisconsin explained.
• 07:50 — Cheeseheads and the American approach to sport.
• 09:07 — Wisconsin’s cheese and drinking culture.
• 11:06 — Green Bay Packers: history and unique ownership.
• 17:00 — Inside Fromagination: Meeting Will the cheesemonger.
• 19:36 — Cheese contest begins: Sights, smells, and process.
• 25:05 — Whole Foods’ Kathy Strange on judging cheese and artisan culture.
• 28:52 — Ben Smith explains regional cheddar flavors.
• 31:19 — Steve the elder cheese statesman on family tradition.
• 34:20 — The contest winners: Netherlands & Switzerland.
• 42:15 — Cheese heists: global and local tales.
• 48:47 — Listener feedback: puzzles, herbs vs. spices.

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Tone & Delivery

• Warm, playful, and irreverent; David’s New Zealand curiosity is met with affectionate skepticism and lived-in Midwestern wisdom.
• Frequent moments of banter, light teasing (especially about sports loyalties and “bait and switch” episode titling), and genuine enthusiasm for cheese.
• Deep respect and admiration for the people behind Wisconsin’s cheese culture, from multi-generational cheese families to industry pros.

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Conclusion

This episode of Flightless Bird is a hearty, humorous, and informative immersion into America’s dairy capital. Through interviews, personal experiences, and cultural commentary, David Farrier celebrates Wisconsin cheeseheads—not just the iconic fans, but the entire community of makers, eaters, judges, and enthusiasts. It’s a loving exploration of a regional obsession, brimming with quirky stories, expert insights, and of course, lots of cheese.

Transcript

[A]

Oh, hey, man.

[B]

Hi, Hayden. My little precious fruit loop. How are you?

[A]

Precious fruit loop, like the breakfast.

[B]

Breakfast cereal. American breakfast cereal. What do you think of that?

[A]

Yeah, I don't love it. I don't love it. It doesn't feel personal. It doesn't feel that creative. You've gone with foods before.

[B]

Well, you know what is personal? I know that you love cheese. Is that right? Cheese, cheese, cheese.

[A]

Do I love cheese? God, David, I have night cheeses every night. I don't know, I can't stop it. I want to actually lose a little bit of weight, but I can't stop eating my night cheeses. I about 10pm every night I get the cheese out of my fridge and I start chopping it up. I had maybe eight slices of cheese last night.

[B]

And you know what?

[A]

I'm not sure that I dream like everyone says they get, cheese dreams. I think that maybe it's just incorporating itself into my consciousness. Like I'm sort of living in a constant state of cheese hallucination now. So was your question whether I like cheese, if anything a little too much?

[B]

Well, look, you're going to be delighted to know that the episode today is about cheese heads. Do you know what a cheese head is?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's a guy with cheese on his head. Yeah.

[B]

Partly true, partly true. Does it conjure up any other images?

[A]

Oh, wait, the Green Bay Packers.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So they're the cheese heads, right. And they're in Wisconsin and they. Why is this? What is America? So it's a football team, but it's somehow really interlinked with the cheese world and they all go with cheese on their head. So that's the thing in America. I tell you what, it's a unique place over there. You're doing some pretty wacky stuff. Bringing down the global oil market for God knows what reason. For some reason I know about the Strait of horn moose now, which is everything I've learned about that place is against my will. So thanks for that. But also cheese.

[B]

I'm David Farrier, a New Zealander accidentally marooned in America, and I want to figure out what makes this country ticket. Now, when I first heard the term cheesehead, a lot of images came to mind, mainly just people with heads made of cheese. I've since come to learn that cheeseheads are what Hayden just said, supporters of the Green Bay packers, enhanced by the fact they love wearing cheese shaped foam hats. Americans also like to call people from Wisconsin cheese heads, just in general because it's a huge producer of dairy. So in this episode I will investigate cheese by traveling to the capital of Wisconsin and the capital of cheese, Madison. And I go to a very important event, the world championship cheese contest. It's a lot of Cs. So prepare, as they say, to cut the cheese. That means farting. Rob. You'll like that because this is the Cheeseheads episode. Flagness. Flagless. Flagless bird touchdown in America. I'm a fly down in America.

[C]

Cheese.

[B]

Cheese.

[C]

I have beef to pick with this topic in general.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Cheese heads. But yeah, cheese. I mean, I'm with stand with cheese.

[B]

I love cheese.

[C]

I do, too.

[B]

I'm not. I mean, Hayden is a big fan of night cheese, which is just regular cheese but eaten at night.

[C]

I know about night cheese.

[B]

You know about night cheese. Do you partake?

[C]

I do partake in.

[B]

What's your ritual?

[C]

I mean, it's similar to his. Yeah. Like, there's.

[B]

You open that fridge.

[C]

Late night snack.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Is cube cheese.

[B]

How many?

[A]

Ah.

[B]

Say that. Cubes. What do you mean, cubed cube.

[C]

Either you buy it with the bowl and it's already cubed, or you get a block and you chop it up into cubes.

[B]

I'm more slice guy. I will slice.

[C]

Do you buy, like, sandwich cheese? I'll have sandwich cheese, but are you making sandwiches ever?

[B]

No, I'll just eat the cheese on its own.

[C]

So you're buying it sliced for sandwiches, but not to make sandwiches?

[B]

I just like that particular flavor of cheese.

[C]

I mean, that's not a flavor.

[B]

Oh, no. I'm waiting for preparation. So I'm talking about that horrific cheese that comes in little plastic wraps.

[C]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

I like that Kraft cheese. And I like slicing a bit of blue cheese or a bit of brie and popping that in my mouth sometimes on a cracker.

[C]

The thing I run into that's not great is I'm the only one in my house that likes cheese because I've got a lactose intolerant wife.

[B]

Yeah. She hates cheese. She can't have it.

[C]

She loves cheese, but she can't have it.

[B]

No.

[C]

And both the boys have, like, a weird texture thing with cheese. I think. I think she's subconsciously planted this in their heads from a young age.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Which I've been. I've been fighting it.

[B]

But you haven't gotten around it.

[A]

No.

[C]

They both hate cheese so much. Even fake cheese. It's really. Well, Vinnie doesn't eat anything. He. He, like, only eats snacks, so.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

There's still hope for him.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But Calvin, like, won't eat vegan cheese on a pizza.

[B]

Nothing?

[C]

No. Cheese on pizza.

[B]

So it's just you?

[C]

Just me.

[B]

Just you. Salt. Just a man alone eating cheese at the tabletop sometimes.

[C]

Good, though, because no one's going to eat. No competition.

[B]

Do you have a favorite? Particular favorite?

[C]

I mean, I like a pepper jack cheese, a Havarti cheese. Each cheddar cheese you mentioned earlier.

[B]

Cheese cubes.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm scared to say this, but I'm going to say anyway. I feel they're not as big in New Zealand as they are in America. The cubes of cheese.

[C]

Well, this is how you cut it. You get blocks of cheese.

[B]

No, I've seen them in. You can buy like in America. I've seen like big packets of pre cheese. That's not what you're talking about.

[C]

It is, but it may be confusing an American thing where like you can buy watermelon that's pre cut and you can buy.

[B]

You like preparing things. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

But normally I'll buy a block of cheese and I'll cut it into cubes.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Which you could cut it into slices, too. It's the same cheese. So it's literally just the preparation of said cheese.

[B]

The cheese, what shape it comes in, essentially.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it comes in like a big round thing. Normally that.

[B]

Then we get into that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Wheel of cheese, Wheels of cheese.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My God, I've never seen the size of the wheels that I see in today's episode.

[C]

But you. I mean, this episode's not cheese. It's cheese heads. It's cheese heads. Which. Do you know what you've stepped in with this?

[B]

Not really. Look. So the meat of this episode. I go to a cheese contest.

[C]

The meat or the cheese?

[B]

What? Don't understand that reference. Did I say meat?

[C]

You said the meat of the episode. But we're talking about cheese.

[B]

Oh, that was like a funny thing you just did. Yeah. So. No, I'm talking about cheese. Although in Wisconsin, obviously, cows and meat are also a big thing. But no, I go to a cheese contest. So the cheeseheads thing is still a bit of a mystery beyond. They love it in sport in Wisconsin. And they wear a big cheese hat.

[C]

Yeah. So it's the Green Bay Packers.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Who are the rival team to the Chicago Bears.

[B]

So they're your enemy.

[C]

NFC north, rival team.

[B]

Oh, so hate them.

[C]

Yeah. I do not.

[B]

You have beef.

[C]

I hate. Yeah, Beef and cheese. My God, it's the football team I hate the most.

[B]

It's cool that they wear big cheese hats.

[C]

No, it's not.

[B]

That's fun.

[C]

No, it's not.

[B]

It's like fun. I feel like sometimes Americans take their sport too seriously. Here's a team that just puts on a big silly hat and goes, hey, we're having fun. It's all a bit silly. We can have a laugh. We don't take ourselves as seriously as those people in Chicago. And we're going to have a good time. That's what it says to me.

[C]

This episode also feels a little bit like a trap because I'm not normally.

[B]

Oh, you're very positive.

[C]

Fully negative.

[B]

No, no. I'm trying to get you to be negative, but you never are. You're too happy.

[C]

But you found the title, found the place.

[B]

Have you been to Madison before? Which is where this episode takes place. Yeah. I love Madison.

[C]

Yeah, Madison's a cool.

[B]

Madison's beautiful city.

[C]

Milwaukee's cool. Green Bay, the worst. Home of the worst football team. I mean, the problem is the Bears until last season hadn't been good until 85.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And the packers have been good a lot.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So that, that always fuels a sports rivalry.

[B]

Of course. Because they're better than your team.

[C]

Not right now, though. Just fun.

[B]

Just putting that out to be clear.

[C]

Just to be clear.

[B]

Madison. What stood out to me about medicine? Got to the airport and all the trinkets were lots of cows.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Lots of cheese.

[C]

Do you get the relation cows, cows and cheese?

[B]

Yeah, I learned.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Just for this episode, we don't have cows or cheese in New Zealand, so I'm really learning a lot. And the thing that kind of jumped out at me, which is probably not surprising to everyone else, but a lot of, like, we're here to get boozed. Like comical T shirts. So, like, very proud of their drinking culture. And not just drinking. Not just like we have craft beer, but we like to get absolutely shit faced.

[C]

That's. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and that was interesting.

[C]

Wisconsin and Chicago are like cousins. It feels like they have that.

[B]

There's like a similarity between the two.

[C]

Yeah. There's a very similar vibe.

[B]

If you ever got sick of going back to Chicago, you could go to there instead. Probably not go and see a game. Potentially pop on a cheesy hat.

[C]

There is a lot of interesting stuff. Green Bay, I do know, has an interesting backstory. So I'm just gonna. Even though I dislike them as a

[B]

team, you're gonna be a bigger man than that.

[C]

I know. Green Bay is not like a big city. It's not Chicago. It's not like New York.

[B]

It's a bay.

[C]

Yeah. So they were a meat packing town team. So the team Began as a community effort sponsored by the Indian Packing Company practicing adjacent to a meatpacking plant. They're the smallest city in pro sports.

[B]

That's cute.

[C]

Population then was 31,000.

[B]

They're punching you over their weight.

[C]

Yes. Smaller than six other cities in Wisconsin. And instead they got the football team.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

They still. Today, they're the smallest major league professional sport market in North America and they're the only franchise that's owned and sustained by the fans.

[B]

I like that.

[C]

In 1922 they organized a public stock sale and raised enough capital create the Green Bay Football Corporation, which enabled fans to purchase shares in the team.

[B]

I love this.

[C]

So the community owns the team. So there is like, this is so cool. Green Bay Packer fans are die hard fans.

[B]

They literally own them.

[C]

Yes. They've won the most championships of any NFL team. 13.

[B]

The more you talk about them, the more I think they're probably my team.

[C]

No, don't say that.

[B]

I think they are, like, they're the underdog. They're tiny. The people own them.

[C]

They have cheese on their backstory. I get it, David.

[B]

It's really good. Like, it's really, really good.

[C]

If I didn't have the Chicago Bears, I would agree that, yeah, it's a cool story behind the ultimate timeline. Instead, I've had to deal with Brett Favre and Aaron Rogers and I mean, you know about Brett Favre, right?

[B]

No idea.

[C]

And you know about Aaron Rogers?

[B]

No, I don't know who these people are.

[C]

They were the. They were two, like Dynasty quarterbacks.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Aaron Rodgers went like. Search controversial Aaron Rodgers. Look up, look up some stuff on Aaron Rodgers.

[B]

Aaron Rodgers, highly polarized figure due to several controversies. Sounds like he is an anti vaxxer. For a while he claimed to be immunized, but definitely wasn't vaccinated. Big into promoting various conspiracy theories. Has some different public feuds and strained team relationships. Yes. Is that all track?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He sounds unpleasant.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

An unpleasant individual.

[C]

Yeah. But I will say, like, most players at that level are like, Michael Jordan is not known for being like the nicest guy. Same with Kobe Bryant.

[B]

What team is Aaron Rodgers with?

[C]

He was on the Green Bay Packers.

[B]

He was on the Packers.

[C]

Yeah. That's why we're talking about him.

[B]

I was hoping he was with Chicago.

[C]

Why would I bring up a. I don't know.

[B]

Let me think. What else stood out to me?

[C]

This was all part of. You took a trip to Wisconsin.

[B]

I took a trip to Wisconsin. We're gonna do a few episodes out of Wisconsin. Cheese heads being the Beginning.

[C]

And when you say a few too,

[B]

I mean two, including this one. Yeah, it's gonna be two.

[C]

It's gonna be next week.

[B]

It's a small place.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I loved it. The only other thing I remembered when I was in Madison is that I have been to Milwaukee before. And of course that's where Jeffrey Dahmer is from.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And he would. And that ties into the boozing culture. Cuz he would pick up drunk people from gay bars and then kill them.

[C]

Yeah. There. There's a cool music venue called the Rave and Eagles Ball. I think it's. Yeah, Eagles Ballroom in Milwaukee.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That like a lot of bands. It's multiple venues in this big building.

[B]

Cool.

[C]

Where like multiple shows are going. I think there's at least three venues within the building.

[B]

So good for music.

[C]

But I think across the street is one of the hotels related to Dahmer.

[B]

Yeah. Really bleak story, but iconic. I went on a walking tour around the different areas where he had done various naughty things. And by naughty I mean a lot of murder. Also, the guy from Happy Days is from Milwaukee and there is a Fon statue there. And I love the Fonz. It's a big part of my childhood. Big part of Americana. Okay, before we get to the cheese competition, what else? Madison, it's the Capitol. They've got a giant Capitol building. I sent you photos. I was in a hotel across from the state Capitol.

[C]

Yeah, we did a Patreon from there.

[B]

It was insane. Yeah, I looked at. I thought I'd like fucked up the flights and was in like DC or something. America knows how to do a Capitol building. Like this building was amazing.

[C]

We have since visited multiple Capitol buildings since you visited Wisconsin.

[B]

I love Capitol buildings in America.

[C]

Now, like we get to a city, you're like, where is the Capitol building?

[B]

Show me that building. They're so over the top. Yeah, they're amazing. Madison also has one of 10 remaining free zoos in North America. We don't love zoos. We love a free zoo. And I think that's pretty cool.

[C]

Chicago has a free zoo. The Lincoln Park Zoo. Named after your. Your favorite band was named after it.

[B]

I do love Lincoln. They also have a veterans museum in Madison, which I went into, which was. It was just an interesting vibe. It was like a lot of like life sized dioramas of different battles throughout America's history. I'm not laughing at that. I'm laughing at the fact that Rob's microphone just broke and it was very. I just. I'm a big fan of A big diorama and about deeply American. It was like battles through the ages, I would say. Worth a visit.

[C]

I mean, you remember the dioramas, though, in Chicago, right?

[B]

I don't remember.

[C]

Went to the Field Museum and they had all those really cool ones.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there were some cool ones there.

[C]

And Colorado, there were a lot of really cool.

[B]

Oh, my God, America, you do capital buildings well. And dioramas really well. But yeah. Let's get into the World Championship Cheese contest. You can salivate. Just the thought of all this cheese, Rob. So much cheese. What a time to be alive. Getting to the World Championship Cheese Contest held in beautiful Madison, Wisconsin. The first thing I notice about Madison is that their state capitol building is huge. To the point that when I woke up, I thought I'd gotten my travel all messed up, and it ended up in Washington instead. The second thing I noticed is that cheese is everywhere. It's unavoidable. Stumbling out of my hotel, I pretty much fell into a cheese store immediately.

[D]

My name is Will. I am a cheesemonger here at Fromagination, specifically the front of house lead, the hospitality lead, if you will. I sample cheeses, I take care of those cheeses. I'm what's called a monger. And when we talk about mongers, we're more than just, like, order takers, right? I have to know about the cheese. I have to be able to tell you the story. I have to take care of it, too, right? Like, we never let our cheeses sit for more than, like, six or seven days in that wrap. We always take it off, scrape it, and make sure it's all fresh and ready for you.

[B]

Will has been working in this much loved artisan cheese store for two and a half years. The store itself has been here for nearly two decades.

[D]

So we're the cheese capital of the United States. We are literally across the street from the Capitol building of the capitol of the. You know what I mean? Madison has, out of all the places I've lived, probably has the strongest community, especially the cheese world, too. Cheese people are. They're really cool people.

[B]

What are cheese people? What defines a cheese person? What are they like?

[D]

I don't know. That's how my mama raised me, I guess, is how it goes. But cheese people, they're very humble. Sometimes they can be quiet, but they are wicked smart. I know for a fact if I walked into a creamery right now, my head would be spinning. Like I like to say, I'm a storyteller. I know enough of the science to get by. Right. But man, yeah, there are some smart people. Kind is one word I would use to describe Wisconsin cheese.

[B]

People keep hearing about the squeakiness of cheese being important. Can you explain that to me a little bit, what that represents?

[D]

So with cheese curds specifically, that's what we think of when we think of squeaky cheese. It really is just like the freshness of that cheese. I think it has to do with the calcium on your teeth, actually, that rub against the proteins in the cheese, and that's what gives it that squeak. And usually it's going to be squeaky for, like, that first one or two days. But if you ever get a bag of cheese curds that say they squeak on the front and they don't pop it in the microwave, I'm not joking. Less than two seconds, and it just brings back the moisture and you're good to go.

[B]

With that important cheese info in my head, I set off for the competition. It was a cold day in Madison. I had my jacket and gloves on. The convention center dwarfed by a large frozen Lake Monona looming behind it. The competition is the world's premier technical cheese, butter and yogurt competition hosted here in Wisconsin for the last 69 years. I wasn't here for the butter or yogurt. I was here for the cheese. And as I picked up my official media lanyard and entered the competition floor, I was surrounded by it. Hundreds of blocks of cheese, thousands of blocks of cheese. I could see it, I could smell it, and soon I would consume it.

[E]

I'm Grace Atherton. I'm the communications director for Wisconsin Cheesemakers association, which hosts the World Championship cheese contest.

[B]

Now, we are currently in a sort of a large room with a lot of tables, a lot of cheese. I can smell the cheese in the air. So this is primarily a competition.

[E]

It is primarily competition. Although I will say it's the friendliest competition I personally have ever witnessed. There's so much camaraderie here.

[B]

So it's not getting feral, it's not getting backstabby. It's not getting angry.

[E]

We don't typically have intense, bitter rivalries or anything like that. It's pretty friendly, pretty well behaved around here. What you're looking at is tables of judges working in pairs to evaluate the 3,000, 375 entries we have in this competition. And they are wearing kind of the industry standard, which is a white lab coat.

[B]

To me, it looks like a room full of scientists all wearing different hats. The white hats are judges. The red hats sort of oversee the judges, and the Tan hats are the B team volunteers making sure everything is running smoothly. As smooth as a smooth piece of cheese. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Grow Therapy. Now, it's spring right now, which means it's kind of like a spring cleaning kind of time. I love cleaning the house. Makes me feel good. But you know what? You can also clean your brain. And that's where growth therapy comes in.

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[B]

Yeah. And if you haven't done therapy before, I started when I got to the United States and I have found it incredibly beneficial.

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Yeah, it's made you a much better human.

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[B]

That's growtherapy.com bird growtherapy.com bird availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan Support for Flightless Bird is brought to you by Bombus. Now the springtime Thor is finally here. Flowers are blooming, days are longer, we're saying yes to more plans. And finally getting outside. We're running, we're walking, we're moving again. And it's the perfect time to upgrade your everyday go tos with Bombus.

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That's B O M B A S.com bird code bird at checkout. Have noticed the temperature in here. It's quite cool. Is that to do with the cheese?

[E]

It is, absolutely. When you've got this many dairy products in a room, you got to keep it pretty cold.

[B]

Yeah. Is the smell ever an issue when it comes to cheese? Because I smell a little bit of cheese now. It's pleasant. Does it become more overpowering as the day goes on?

[E]

You know, it typically, typically stays about what it is right now. You can smell in the room as you're here. It smells like there's a lot of cheese around. But like you said, it's not overpowering. It's not unpleasant. Certainly the judges who are evaluating categories like smear ripened cheeses, if you've got

[B]

a limburger class, Grace told me it was really important. I talk to one of the most respected cheese judges here, a legend in these halls, a woman called Kathy, whose main job is with Whole Foods, a giant chain with 500 stores all over America, 100% owned by Amazon. How deeply American is that?

[F]

Hi, everyone. I'm Kathy Strange and I am with Whole Foods Market. I am the ambassador of food culture. Cheese is a destination department. We have been a part of not only the American cheese movement, but artisan church cheese production around the world for now over 40 years. So we're very excited to represent. We have the highest number of certified cheese professionals in the world in our stores now.

[B]

When I think of cheese, I tend to think Switzerland. I wondered how the US Fitted into the world of cheese.

[F]

We make all different styles of cheeses in the United States, and we have a rich history, even though our history isn't very long. But since the beginning, we've been making cheese and. And raising herds of animals and really honoring the land that the animals are a part of and truly reflective here in Wisconsin. But, you know, cheese is four ingredients, and four ingredients has the opportunity to make everything you see in front of you, David.

[B]

So I'm deeply embarrassed. Now. What are the four ingredients in cheese? This is terrible.

[F]

I don't know this, obviously, milk. So got that milk culture, salt for preservative and enzymes to coagulate.

[B]

What's your favorite cheese? You can just have one cheese for the rest of your life. What are you picking?

[F]

Well, it is quite like a child. Your favorite cheese today, and it's like whatever the best tasting cheese is. I have the opportunity today to taste around 70 cheeses, and I'll have one at the end of the day, but every day it's a different one. So we're going into spring, so I like to fresh cheeses.

[B]

She sidestepped that one like a pro. And fair enough. She's not here to talk to me. She's here to judge. And there's a lot of cheese to judge. Over 3,000 different ones. 3,375 to be precise. How do you cleanse the palate between the tastings?

[F]

It depends on the style of cheese. So really, the more complex you would have to think about cleansing more often. I use acidity either of fruits just to be able to not eating or ingesting. So you get the sweetness, but just cleansing the tongue or plain saltine to take the butter fats off. And of course, a lot of water. You've got to hydrate.

[B]

To be clear, Kathy doesn't have to try all those 3,375 cheeses. She's one of many judges here.

[G]

My name is Ben Smith. I work for a company called Hilmar Cheese in Hilmar, California. We're actually one of the world's largest cheese manufacturers. We make a million and a half pounds of cheese every day at that one factory. Then we have a second factory that also does the same. And then we just built a new factory in Kansas that does about two

[B]

thirds of that that's mind boggling.

[G]

It is, it is. But the world eats a lot of cheese. We export a lot, but a lot stays domestic. We don't have our own brand in the marketplace either, though, so you can't find our name on a piece of cheese anywhere. We sell to other companies that then slice, cut, shred, whatever it is, or it goes to McDonald's, Taco Bell, those kind of places. So you've eaten. If you've had cheese in the us you've had our cheese before.

[B]

And what's your role here today? You're judging a certain type of cheese?

[G]

Yes, so we're judging. Today we're just judging one category, and that's sharp cheddar. We define sharp cheddar as being aged between 6 and 12 months. So you're looking for very specific flavors in there. Aged cheddar notes, savory notes, brothy notes, beefy, umami, those kind of flavors. We're wanting to avoid strong, bitter flavors and things like that. Any unclean, grassy flavors and things like that.

[B]

And how many in that category that you're judging?

[G]

We've got just about 70 entries.

[B]

Like what are the differences really, in that?

[G]

There's actually quite a wide range of differences in that. In the US Alone, we have regional cheddar region descriptors. We have west coast cheddar, which is fruity and beefy. We have Wisconsin cheddar, Midwest cheddar, which is very acidic, strong acid flavor. And in the Northeast, you've got like Cabots or your Vermont cheddars that are almost sulfury. So even in the us, cheddar runs a wide gamut. But now this is the world's contest. So we've got cheddar from the uk, we've got cheddar from Ireland, we've got cheddar from Germany. Those have their own flavor profiles. So. So we've got a wide range of flavors to play with here and to expect. So even though it is 70 entries in one category, it's a wide category

[B]

with so much cheese. I ask him if there's ever a wrong way to eat cheese.

[G]

No, because cheese is personal. It's whatever you like. So like cheese on apple pie. That's an American thing. That is very strange. Cheddar cheese. A slice of cheddar cheese melted on top of your hot apple.

[B]

Holy shit, that works.

[G]

Oh my God. It blows your mind. Trust me. Try it. It's really good.

[B]

Okay, so you, right now, as we've been talking, have been holding a plate of four shafts of different Cheese. What is happening here?

[G]

So we call these plugs. So we have a trier. That's our tool that extracts the plug from the block.

[B]

Bean shows me how he judges by trying these little cheese shafts one by one.

[G]

You're looking for that savory, meaty, brothy, right through the middle, right. And it's not finishing bitter. It's cleaning up. I'm not getting off notes or anything like that.

[B]

So the aftert taste is part of it as well.

[G]

Certainly, yeah. Everything that you're going to experience as you eat the cheese, that's what we're judging on here.

[B]

I quickly learned that I'd probably be a bad judge. All the cheese Ben hands me, I enjoy. I forget what the previous cheese tasted like. Overcome by the current cheese being swilled around in my gob.

[G]

So now try the white one there. Try that.

[B]

Okay. Everything I put in my mouth, I'm like, this is delicious.

[G]

See, to me, this one I like the least. This is bitter. I'm getting off notes right up front. It's not cleaning up, it's lingering. These have already been scored and entered, so. So your comments won't influence our integrity.

[B]

I step away from the judges and go and meet one of the B team. Tan hats. I'd heard about Steve. He's one of the elder statesmen of cheese here. And earlier I'd watched him and a few other guys cutting these giant wheels of cheese. Like so giant you couldn't lift them on your own.

[H]

The art of cutting a wheel of Swiss straight is a challenge for all of us. So it's kind of a little competition. Besides judging, we have our own little competition on who can cut the straight as Swiss cheese. I was here at 5:30, and we unload the trucks and get everything staged in the back. There's a lot to this.

[B]

For Steve, cheese isn't just something he likes or loves. It's his entire reality. If anyone is a pure cheesehead, it's this man.

[H]

No, I was born in it. I was probably back in the factory 25, 30 hours after I was born, you know, so I've been in a cheese factory my whole life. Grew up in it, went to school. My dad wanted me to come back and buy in the business, so I've been in it ever since.

[B]

Generations of cheeseheads, including his daughter Shaya, who's also here with them. There's no escaping.

[E]

No, there's no escaping it whatsoever. I tried once, came back. It is never ending. My dad's always creating something new. He always has big ideas.

[B]

Noting that this is the world cheese champs, I wonder how the US will fare.

[H]

Well, we got a lot of talented cheesemakers. There are certain cheeses that are a little tougher to make here in the States, but competitively wise, we'll be right there with everybody. You know, depending on the cheese. The Italians, you know, they're hard to compete. The Swiss here and the Swiss cheese, they're hard to compete with. The Emmenthaler, you know, is a European cheese. Not a lot of it made here in the US but there's such a broad spectrum of cheese here.

[B]

Does Wisconsin have the best cheese in America, do you reckon?

[H]

Yes, absolutely. It comes down to milk and it comes down to water and it comes down to the environment. Well, the Midwest, you know, we have the most limestone, we have the best water, we have the climate change, of course, but you know, in the summertime the crops are great. You know, it's just a good area for dairy and that, you know, and it's Wisconsin people are pretty much down to earth. I mean, I travel around a little bit. It's that way everywhere but Wisconsin, you know, people come here, they come here for the cheese and they come here because of us, I guess.

[B]

Steve tells me about a three year long master cheesemaker program at the local university that churns out cheese champions.

[H]

There's so much technical things going on in the cheese industry, you know, cultures, everything. And you gotta study and you gotta learn them, what they do, how they affect cheese, what creates the best flavor. Cheese making is not just time and material, it's, it's a passion. That's what makes a good cheese maker. It's a passion. If you don't have the passion, your cheese will be mediocre.

[B]

Do you ever get sick of cheese?

[H]

I eat cheese every day. I always eat a little cheese for lunch. Probably, probably not the best for me, but I do it anyway and I enjoy it. I enjoy it.

[B]

Eat cheese every day is the kind of advice I can get behind. And I did eat a lot of cheese over the weekend. As I ate, judges judged it was quiet, dedicated work. Sometimes I stopped and just stared at them as they carefully placed these precious cheeses in their mouths and chewed. As for the big winners, the big three, the world champs were from the Netherlands and got a score of 98.68, winning for a cheese called the Beemster Royale Grand Cru. The first runner up was from Switzerland with 98.45. And the second runner up, also from Switzerland, 98.41. I had a wonderful day and I learned that I'll probably die without ever tasting all the cheese produced on planet Earth. But I can try. I can try. And I got a pretty good start in Madison, Wisconsin, home of the Cheesehead. Stay tuned for more Flightless Bird. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Support for Flightless Bird comes from Shopify. Now. If you're starting your own business, it can be really intimidating and really lonely. Thanks to all the hats you suddenly have to wear when you have no idea what the heck you're doing.

[C]

Yeah, you got to put on a cheese head. You got to put on.

[B]

Oh, good reference.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[C]

go to shopify.combird that's shopify.combird. What's football? It's a sport that I am.

[B]

Americans love throwing footballs to each other, don't they? Do you want to try?

[C]

Yeah, it was like the room.

[B]

Yeah, I've got a fluffy football here that I got from Ontario High from the prom episode of Flightless Bird. Homecoming, Prom, Homecoming. Same thing.

[C]

Homecoming, not the same thing. Would have been creepier if you went to a prom.

[B]

What did you think of all that cheese?

[C]

I mean it made me want to have been at that competition.

[B]

It Was pretty amazing.

[C]

How much cheese did you end up trying?

[B]

I had. So in the middle of the room, they had these four giant tables that were just full of different cheeses, and I would just wander over and eat them.

[C]

And this is open to the public?

[B]

Yes. So they had a day where the public could come in and watch the judges see what was going on. It was actually really cool. Like, there's this giant competition, and you could just like, come and watch and eat cheese. And eat cheese.

[C]

Because that's a lot of cheese.

[B]

Oh, no. This room was so. See, like, around the corner of the room, around the sides, you had all the judges very seriously, like, fenced off from the public doing their thing.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Middle of the room, the public could come in and have, like, a little bite. So there'd be a little. What do you call them? A little toothpick.

[C]

But does that mean everyone.

[B]

Yeah. So you'd get your fresh toothpick.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You'd jab it into a little cube of cheese. You'd eat it.

[C]

But you've seen people using their, like, hands and grabbing.

[B]

See anyone do that?

[C]

There's a grocery store too.

[B]

Like, people. I gotta say, the people. It wasn't like the feralness of la. People in Madison are, like, very. They care about each other. They're very worried about, like, touching other people's food. And so everyone is following the rules. It was a beautiful thing.

[C]

Did you get to try any of the winning cheeses?

[B]

No. No, I didn't.

[C]

You mentioned Switzerland.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Is what you think of.

[B]

My brain jumps to Switzerland. Is it just because cheese.

[C]

Is that your favorite cheese?

[B]

Good question. No, I just have a deep knowledge of cheese, and I know that a lot of winning cheese comes from Switzerland.

[C]

Like, bullshit.

[B]

No, like the two of the cheeses that won. The big winners from Switzerland.

[C]

So did you write the doc for this before or after you attended that and you knew that they won?

[B]

No, I walked in there with a world of knowledge about everything. Had nothing to do with the fact Swiss cheese is a thing.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Had nothing to do with it. Just a deep knowledge of the world of competitive cheese.

[C]

Have you had cheese curds prior to this? Did you have cheese curds there?

[B]

I had one squeaky curd.

[C]

Oh, cheese curds are really good, too.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't realize until this trip that they were such a thing, but they are loved in this town. They're, like, worshiped like a God. The cheese curd.

[C]

I mean, you can get, like, deep fried cheese curds, too.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[C]

Which are really Good.

[B]

Could you get those in? Where would I get a deep fried. You do it at home, I guess. Would you, like, buy them from a place?

[C]

You can get them at, like, grocery stores sometimes.

[B]

Would you have that as a night cheese? A cheese curd?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Natalie just hears squeaking coming from the kitchen. Like, what are you doing?

[C]

Deep fried cheese curds is like a bar food.

[B]

Yeah, right at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

But like you said, Wisconsin. Wisconsin people are a lot like Minnesota people, where they're just very polite and

[B]

nice, kind of to a almost sickly level.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you're like, oh, my God, like, what's the catch? Are you scamming me? And they're not. They're just kind and lovely.

[C]

I will say, because Minnesota is above Wisconsin, and then Chicago, I do feel like all three of the areas kind of share that. But the closer you get to Chicago is like, the gradient gets, like, a little more grisly.

[B]

Start to get, like. Yeah. A little bit more combative. And not just.

[C]

I wouldn't say combat. People in Chicago are very nice, too, but more abrupt. Yeah. But then you go, like, to Boston and New York.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's, like, continuing interesting.

[B]

I do wonder, like, socially how that works. Like, it's like accents across America. Right. Like, there's an evolution of that. But I like that there's this evolution of. No, I don't know, the word is like niceness or personality. Personality. Yeah. And then you get to LA and it's just like a melting pot of, like, with some nice people thrown in,

[C]

you know, I mean, it's. You get to LA and it's a lot of people that aren't from la, and it's a combination. It's a combination of everything.

[B]

This is a good point. I like that idea, though.

[C]

I feel like you have a lot more New Yorkers from New York than you have people from California here.

[B]

This is accurate. It is a. Yeah. That's what makes California.

[C]

Same with, like, Chicago. There's a lot more people that are

[B]

just born and raised about Chicago.

[C]

Well, there's the three major.

[B]

Do you have cheese in Chicago?

[C]

We do have cheese.

[B]

Do you have cheese?

[C]

Do you have cheese in New Zealand?

[B]

No. No. This is novel. It's a really novel thing to me here.

[C]

I did also. Have you heard about any cheese heists? Famous cheese heists, which maybe this needs to just be a Patreon episode at some point, but cheese is the most stolen food on ear.

[B]

This is incredible.

[C]

4% of the world's cheese supply goes missing. Annually, it's the most stolen food on the planet.

[B]

This is incredible.

[C]

But not just shoplifters. Organized crime has gotten into cheese theft.

[B]

I love this.

[C]

1928, the Brooklyn Cheese Bandits were busted after confessing to 25 robberies in a two month period.

[B]

Holy.

[C]

They got the name. Not because they stole cheese.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because they were robbing delis and eating cheese. They're.

[B]

It's really good.

[C]

The Italian Parmesan gang of 2015.

[B]

These names are so incredibly baller.

[C]

This is not America, though, fortunately. But 11 thieves who have spent two years stealing 2039 wheels of Parmesan cheese worth $875,000.

[B]

That is insane. Also, it makes sense because you can wheel them away. Right. They're a convenient shape to get out of there. Just roll them out the door into the back of the van.

[C]

According to the official governing body for Italian parmesan makers, over $3 million in parmesan is stolen in Italy every year. This is. This is what I remember reading about. So in early 2013, Balika showed up at a Wisconsin cheese factory with forged paperwork and tricked the owner into loading his truck with 21 tons of monster cheese worth $200,000.

[B]

Holy.

[C]

He then drove to New Jersey and tried to sell it at a rest stop.

[B]

At a rest stop. It's like Mateo's Matcha match. You're out the corner.

[C]

Yeah. And then another Wisconsin cheese crime wave. In 2016, they were hit with three high Prof. Cheese heists ranging from 46,000 to $90,000 worth of stolen cheese. The $90,000 one was all Parmesan cheese. So we're learning Parmesan cheese. Is the.

[B]

The idea having to sell all of that is so stressful to me. Like, people don't want bulk cheese.

[C]

I want bulk cheese.

[B]

Are you talking. You want bulk cheese? If you went to a truck stop and there was just like a van with a lot of quite cheap but really good cheese. Are you loading that into your car?

[C]

No, I'm not. I'm not trusting a guy in a van with cheese. I think the cheese ice we're learning are similar to the maple syrup heists in Canada.

[B]

Yeah. I really like that it happens. I don't support crime, but I like creativity. And that's kind of incredible cheese. We love it. Madison loved you. I'd go back again. It did remind me a little bit of a smaller New Zealand. New Zealand town. It felt like homely. Lots of dive bars around. Yeah. Student town. Lots of people on the booze.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

There's a college. It's A good. It's just a good vibe there. I like Madison and a beautiful Capitol building and a ton of cheese. Just cheese mongers on every other corner.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Loved it. Okay. Feedback to previous episodes. How do you feel about that, Robert?

[C]

I feel great.

[B]

Pinball Tom wrote in saying, in regards to puzzles, we had a Christmas tradition. When I was about eight years old, we went to my grandparents to open presents. Being kids, we always pestered the elders to start the present opening process. But we were given a task we had to complete first. We had to complete a puzzle. Over the years, it was the same puzzle, so we got pretty good at it while taking less than two hours in later years. Not a bad time. Two hours. Not the 30 minutes of our competitive puzzler, but close.

[C]

Yeah. Karen would be disappointed at two hours.

[B]

Yeah, Karen would be like, come on up your game. Kathy says, Rob, puzzle boards can slide under your coffee table or sofa. Get a puzzle board. Rob will allow you to do puzzles anytime you want to do a puzzle. Note, though, if you've got a kitty cat, they'll enjoy sitting on your puzzle board all the time. It's very cute.

[C]

A small dog that's kind of like a cat.

[B]

I love your dog.

[C]

I consider a puzzle board.

[B]

Mona Lin says thank you for the latest episode with Karen. I'm one of those people that speed puzzles. I train in everything, but I'm nowhere near as good as Karen. It's a big thing in New Zealand, too. We have our nationals coming up on Saturday, 25 July in Auckland, New Zealand. Also, I'm catching up on older episodes. Rob referred to a herb, Aragnio. Am I saying that right?

[C]

Oregan, oregano, oregano, Oregano.

[B]

Rob referred to it as a spice, but it's a herb, not a spice. I just love. I don't know why I find this so funny. It comes from the leafy part.

[C]

Yeah. I can't explain.

[B]

Of a plant. It's a herb.

[C]

It can't. You can.

[B]

If it comes from any other part, like the seed, the bark, the root or the flower, it's a spice, you fucking idiot. Rob shouldn't say that. I thought this might interest you. Love monolin.

[C]

Yes, I know. You can buy oregano leaves.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

And as a herb. But also it's in my spice rack, too, as dried oregano.

[B]

Interesting.

[C]

But, I mean, you can. You can have dried herbs, you can have basil that's dried and in a right shaker.

[B]

And you always have a spice rack. You don't ever get a herb rack, do you?

[C]

No. You have Like a herb drawer in the fridge though for fresh herbs or like we'll do the basil plant sometimes or mint.

[B]

In my home, I have zero herbs or spices because I am, I don't cook.

[C]

I like that we're competing, we're going back and forth with how we pronounce it, where we're, we're, we're ignoring that. The other one's saying it differently.

[B]

It's good. It's the way it should be.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's also the way, it's the way all New Zealanders, whoever gets the last

[C]

word, the last one that says herb wins Herb.

[B]

Okay. So onward and thank you, my Lynn, for correcting Rob's heinous error about herbs. I'll let you have a herbs.

[C]

I said herbs.

[B]

I know you did.

[C]

I said it your way.

[B]

Anne said. I'm finishing the puzzles episode and I thought you and the listeners might like to know about this genius business idea someone had. Wii U rent puzzles. It's perfect for my 80 year old mum who has all the time to complete them but doesn't want a closet full of puzzles she has to purchase. She sends it back when she's done and they ship out another one. Shout out. We should be sponsored by this company. Shout out to completing the puzzle for helping my mum keep her mind sharp.

[C]

I really like that idea. I do feel like puzzles are one of those things that used aren't great disaster because yeah, you do a puzzle

[B]

two or three times, they're gonna get all tatted.

[C]

Yeah. You get people's like skin cells, flaky skin in the box.

[B]

Little toenail hair here and there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, disgusting.

[C]

Exactly. There's like a layer of oil from the skin on each piece. Some people, I think we might have just lost our opportunity to have them as a sponsor

[B]

completing the puzzle. Disgusting.

[C]

Maybe they clean very happy.

[B]

Your 80 year old mum is. Has endless puzzles. It kind of sounds like early Netflix.

[C]

I thought of Netflix too.

[B]

Post back the dvd. John says, I enjoyed your episode about Goosebumps and the legend that is R.L. stine. I live in Mr. Science hometown of Columbus, Ohio where I am a season ticket holder for our Major League Soccer team, the Columbus Crew. Just last season they unveiled a Goosebumps themed jersey kit to honor the legendary author. The kit makes it into the regular rotation of the team. It's always a treat when they are sporting it. Thought you'd enjoy Rob. I included that bit of feedback because it was sports related sports and I'm trying to cater more to you.

[C]

Yeah, that's why you got a football.

[B]

And that's how we've got this football

[C]

here, tossing back and forth.

[B]

Sports, sports, sports.

[C]

And that's why you name this Cheese heads rather than cheese competition, which was actually what this episode was about.

[B]

Exactly. I wanted to get your attention.

[C]

Bait and switch.

[B]

It's a bait and switch. Finally, Amy said, hi David and Rob, I just wanted to let you know how happy and thankful I am that you made a follow up episode with Nick. By far, your first episode with him is my favorite podcast episode of all time. I distinctly remember listening to that episode while walking my dog on a great chilly, quiet San Diego morning and just being so deeply moved. This is the episode the parasocial listener part 2. After the episode ended, I just continued to walk in silence, stunned by what he's gone through and that he continues to go through. I just couldn't believe what a beautiful spirit he has despite everything that's going on. Listening to that episode was especially eye opening for me because I had been going through a childhood challenging time. But then listening to Nick quickly put my stuff in perspective. I'm really glad he got to explore New Zealand. It's one of my favourite places. The part that really gave me major chills was when you commented that maybe in some twisted series of events that his brain cancer is what saved him. Those moments and stories that make you think is the more of this existence than we think. I appreciate your dedication you both have to this podcast and really wanted to share how meaningful that was. From leaf blowers to brain cancer. I truly enjoy every episode. Thank you for what you do do. Thank you Amy. Beautiful feedback. Thanks for listening to the show. If you have feedback. What's our email rob? Flightless birchat gmail.com we are also on [e-mail] Flightless Bird yeah, we do a

[C]

little bonus episode every week on there.

[B]

We have extra little bits of joy.

[C]

Listen ad free. Watch ad free. If you want our regular episodes.

[B]

Yeah, if you want to support the show. Completely optional, regular episodes come out as per normal. But if you want to support the show there is extra stuff on there. Next week we have a part two from Wisconsin. What's it going to be? Is it going to be sport? Is it going to be booze? Is it going to be the Dells? The Dells? It's not the Dells. We're going to go back for the Dells when it is summer. When I was there, the lakes were all frozen. Yeah, it was fucking freezing and beautiful. I walked on one of the frozen lakes. It's beautiful. I loved it.

[C]

My boys have been to the Dells a few times already. I have not gone with them, but whenever they go and visit my parents, they take a trip up to the Wisconsin Dells. So they've been two or three times at this point.

[B]

Talked a lot with people in town when we weren't talking cheese. Talked a lot about the Dells and everyone had a story about the Dells. It's like their theme park.

[C]

It's water, except it's a whole town. It was a Ripley's Believe it or Not.

[B]

What I didn't know is that they have maybe obvious, but it's. It's winter there often.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

They have indoor ones.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't need to be summer. Yeah, you can just seal yourself.

[C]

Yeah. There's something a little gross about an indoor water park though. The like hot mugginess of a God.

[B]

It's like being in the tropics.

[C]

Steamy, indoor.

[B]

It's like being in a rainforest.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I also like that some of the adults said that there's like areas so that you can leave your kids in the filth and then like adults have like a special area where they can just go and get boozed. It sounds amazing.

[C]

I have not gone as an adult or someone that boozes, so I don't

[B]

know, that part could go together one day. A day sealed in the delve. Okay, we'll see you next week.

[C]

See you next week.

[G]

Bye.

[B]

Bye, Sam.