S4 : Ep 22 - Author Interview : Penn Cole - Spark of the Everflame & Luther POV Bonus Chapter

Summary

Flights of Fantasy Podcast Summary Episode: S4 : Ep 22 - Author Interview : Penn Cole - Spark of the Everflame & Luther POV Bonus Chapter
Release Date: October 15, 2024

---

1. Introduction to the Episode

In this special bonus episode of Flights of Fantasy, hosts Anna, Kim, and Kristina delve deep into an engaging conversation with acclaimed author Penn Cole. The episode focuses on the newly republished edition of Penn Cole’s novel, Spark of the Everflame, and introduces an exclusive Luther POV bonus chapter.

2. Guest Introduction: Penn Cole

Penn Cole joins the podcast from the picturesque Atria offices in Manhattan. She shares her excitement about transitioning from writing in France to participating in the podcast recording. Reflecting on her recent experiences, Penn discusses her bustling book tour, starting with her debut event at Romantasy in Florida, which she describes as "so smooth" and "phenomenal" (02:29).

3. Discussion of Spark of the Everflame Republished Edition

Penn elaborates on the exquisite details of the newly republished hardcover edition of Spark of the Everflame. She emphasizes the enhancements made to ensure existing fans find the new edition worthwhile:

• New Cover Design: Penn expresses her initial reservations but praises the revamped cover, highlighting its "shimmery pearlescent paper" and embossed elements that change color throughout the series (03:40).
• Enhanced Map: She is particularly obsessed with the new, detailed map that adds depth to the fantastical world of her novel (04:22).
• Bonus Content: The standout feature is the bonus chapter from Luther’s perspective, providing fresh insights into his character (04:27).

4. Luther POV Bonus Chapter

The conversation shifts to the newly added Luther POV bonus chapter. Penn describes it as a "gift" to readers, set immediately after the pivotal kiss between Luther and DM at the end of Spark of the Everflame. This chapter explores Luther’s internal struggles as DM grapples with familial conflicts:

• Character Insight: The bonus chapter reveals Luther’s reaction to the kiss and his complex emotions, including his distrust and intrigue towards DM (04:52).
• Expanded Relationships: Penn introduces Taryn Hayes’ appearance, enriching Luther’s backstory and his playful dynamics with Taryn (06:01).
• Emotional Depth: The chapter delves into Luther’s yearning for personal desires versus his ingrained sense of duty, highlighting themes of loyalty and the struggle between biological and found family (08:58).

5. Deep Dive into Luther’s Character Development

Penn discusses Luther’s nuanced portrayal, focusing on his reluctance to seek leadership and his internal conflict when the crown does not come to him:

• Prophetic Elements: The dying king’s enigmatic advice to "use the sword" (10:26) propels Luther into a journey of destiny and fate.
• Complex Relationships: Luther’s relationship with his uncle and his loyalty to family are examined, showcasing his selfless nature and the emotional turmoil he experiences (10:15).

6. Insights into Supporting Characters

The bonus chapter also offers glimpses into other characters, such as Eleanor, laying the groundwork for future developments. Penn reveals her intention to possibly write additional scenes to further explore Luther’s relationships and his interactions with other key figures (07:24).

7. Themes Explored in the Books

Throughout the discussion, Penn emphasizes recurring themes in her work:

• Loyalty and Family: The balance between biological and found family plays a significant role in Luther’s journey.
• Fate vs. Free Will: Luther’s realization of his destined path contrasts with DM’s more chaotic and uncertain journey.
• Emotional Resilience: Characters grapple with trauma, personal desires, and their roles in broader political landscapes (10:47).

8. Speculation on Future Plot Points

Penn teases upcoming elements in the series, including the mysterious "sword of Courbois" and its prophetic significance. She hints at Luther’s evolving role and the intricacies of his motivations, ensuring that readers remain intrigued without revealing spoilers (10:51).

9. Author’s Perspective on Other Works

Shifting gears, Penn shares her thoughts on other literary series:

• Zodiac Academy: She expresses admiration for the creativity and wild ideas within the series, mentioning a desire to co-write with its authors (23:38).
• Throne of Glass: Penn passionately argues for reading Assassin’s Blade before diving into the main Throne of Glass series, emphasizing how prequels provide essential context and depth to the characters (25:35).

10. Rapid Fire Segment Highlights

In a fun rapid-fire segment, Penn answers questions about her favorite bookboyfriends, dream co-authors, and ideal fan casts:

• First Book Boyfriend: Jocelyn from Koshiel’s Dart.
• Most Recent Book Boyfriend: Hayden from Stephanie Archer’s The Wingman.
• Dream Co-Author: The creative minds behind Zodiac Academy.
• Ideal Reading Order for Zodiac Academy: Penn suggests breaking up the series by interspersing prequels like Ruthless Boys with the main series for a richer experience (24:35).
• Character Dinner Choice: The enigmatic Queen of Umbra, described as a wild and unpredictable character (31:46).
• Fan Cast Preferences: Zendaya for DM and Can Yaman for Luther, highlighting their versatility and charisma (34:35).

11. Upcoming Works and Release Plans

Penn provides updates on her forthcoming projects:

• "Glow" Hardcover Edition: Set for release on December 3rd, featuring another Luther POV bonus chapter that explores Luther’s confrontation with Henry, offering deeper insights into their long-standing relationship (18:30).
• Final Book "Burn": Penn assures fans that the conclusion to the series is imminent, working closely with Atria to expedite the release without compromising the story’s integrity (35:55).

12. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with heartfelt thanks from both Penn and the hosts. Penn expresses her gratitude for the supportive fanbase and reassures listeners of the swift arrival of the series’ finale. Hosts Anna, Kim, and Kristina echo their excitement and commitment to supporting Penn’s literary journey, inviting listeners to continue following the podcast and engage through social media.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• On the Bonus Chapter’s Impact:
  Christina: “This bonus chapter was everything. I just absolutely ate it up. It was such a gift to us.” 04:36

• On Luther’s Emotional Journey:
  Penn Cole: “His poor yearning and like, the trauma of wanting something, finally wanting something and not being able to have it, I think is heartbreaking.” 08:47

• On Reading Order for Throne of Glass:
  Penn Cole: “If you understand what she has just been through and the trauma that she has faced... you see her for... I just think you have so much sympathy for her.” 25:43

• On Future Releases:
  Penn Cole: “Books are coming very, very soon. It will not be years, I promise.” 35:58

---

Final Thoughts:
This episode of Flights of Fantasy offers an in-depth exploration of Penn Cole’s creative process, character development, and future projects. Whether you’re a long-time fan or new to her work, the conversation provides valuable insights into the rich, fantastical worlds and complex relationships that define her novels. Be sure to support Penn and stay tuned for the eagerly anticipated conclusion of her series.

Transcript

[Pen Cole]

Foreign.

[Christina]

Welcome to Flights of Fantasy, your podcast book club. I am Christina, one of your hosts, and I am here with a very special bonus episode for this is what you do.

[eBay Advertisement]

When you've just found that statement handbag on ebay and you want to build an entire wardrobe around it, you start selling to keep buying. Yep. On ebay, over that all black everything phase, list it and buy all the color, feeling more vintage than ever. It's out with the new and in with the pre loved. Next thing you know, you've refreshed your wardrobe basically without spending a dime. Yeah, ebay the place to buy and sell new pre loved vintage and rare.

[Christina]

Fashion for you today listeners. I had the absolute honor and pleasure and privilege of interviewing the one and only Pen Cole here this week in New York City. She is incredible, guys. She's so wonderful. We had such a bless last discussing the newly republished Spark of the Everflame edition and breaking down everything about the brand new Luther POV bonus chapter. Truly, I cannot wait for you guys to hear this conversation. But before we jump in, we of course want to give a huge thank you to our Patreon supporters. You guys are the best. Your support means the world to us and we could not do this without you. And if you are not a member of our Patreon yet, check it out for exclusive, exclusive content like the full unedited video of today's interview, which is already up and available over there on Patreon. We also want to thank everyone who has supported the podcast by rating and reviewing the show. If you are loving the podcast, please take a minute to rate and review us on your favorite platform. It really makes a big difference and helps us reach more listeners. Okay, spoiler warning for Spark of the Everflame, Glow of the Everflame, Heat of the Everflame, and the Luther POV bonus chapter in Spark in the new hardcover edition. The whole Kindred's curse. You have been warned. Go read it. Go listen to our episodes. Come back here, hang out with me and Pen. Okay, now, without further ado, we hope you enjoy this lovely, wonderful, amazing conversation I had with Pen Cole.

[Pen Cole]

Pen, I'm so excited to see you here in person.

Oh my gosh. This is so, so fun. The Atria offices.

Beautiful Atria offices in Manhattan. There's skylines, there's your beautiful book.

It's just like daytime. Normally I'm in France and so I'm doing these podcasts at 2 or 3 in the morning. Yes.

Oh my gosh. And this is the end of your tour, right? You started in Florida. How was Romantasy?

Oh, my gosh. So that was my first, you know, book event I've ever done, even as a reader. And what a one to kick it off with. It was so, so well run. It was, from my perspective, so smooth. Everybody was so nice. The staff was incredible. The attendees were just phenomenal. There were so many great authors there. I had the time of my life.

I'm sure everyone was so excited to see you.

It was great to see readers in person for the first time was really special. Oh, I'm sure. And it has been a whirlwind since then. I just state to state to state to state. Yeah. Busy.

Booked and busy.

Yes, very busy.

Yes. Okay, so let's talk about this new edition. We are here celebrating the newly republished, gorgeous hardcover Atria Simon Schuster Spark of the Ever Flame.

She's pretty.

She's gorgeous.

[Christina]

Okay, so tell us what's different about this edition?

[Pen Cole]

Where can we get it? When can we get it? All the details here.

Yes. So we tried to make this really special because I know people already have. Many people already have versions of the book. So we really wanted to make this worth buying for them. And not just something to put on the shelf. Right. But something cool.

Yes.

So it's got a brand new cover, obviously, which I loved, my original covers. And when they told me they kind of wanted to keep the same cover but change it, I was a little worried because I thought there's no way they can improve cover. Like, I love my cover.

Yes.

And they did. So beautiful. It's got this, like, shimmery pearlescent paper. It's foiled. The. The naked cover is embossed. It's got this beautiful design. And those are going to change color throughout the series, which is really cool. It has a brand new map. Map is incredible. Incredible. I am obsessed.

Oh, my gosh.

So much detail in it. A little maybe hints. I don't know. We'll see.

Really.

And then my favorite part is it's got a bonus chapter from Luther's point of view. Lulu. Yes. So excited.

Oh, my God. This bonus chapter was everything. I just absolutely ate it up. It was such a gift to us. So, okay, the Luther bonus chapter, it takes place right after the big kiss at the end of Spark. And DM at this point is fighting with Henry. Fighting with her dad.

Yes.

And so here we see with Luther, a lot, a lot happening.

We see his reaction to that kiss and that moment. Yeah.

Okay. So getting to see his reaction to the kiss. Where's his Headspace here.

Like, you know, it was so strange to go back here because I had to, you know, I've been working on Burn, and obviously so much has happened, so I. I had to put myself back in that headspace, but also back in the reader's headspace because there's so much we find out about Luther, particularly end of glow. And obviously we can't spoil that for first time readers. And so, you know, we had to kind of go back to that moment where what do we know about Luther? And, you know, he's still a man of mystery at this point, but I think it gives us some insight into, you know, his feelings about DM and you know, the kind of the equal distrust but. But intrigue that he has in her, just like she does in him. We see a little bit of Taryn, which he loves. I so much.

So excited to see Taryn. And so I forgot that we don't actually meet him till glow. And so he was referenced as cousin. And so now I was like, oh, that's Taryn Hayes.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, my gosh. And he actually. Taryn makes an appearance at the end of Spark too, in the Armory Fire, right?

Yes, he does.

Yeah. So it was really fun because when I wrote those in, actually, Taryn was not originally in that scene. I had already written Heat at the time I put that in. And so to be able to add Taryn into these little scenes, knowing what I know about him as the character has developed, was so much fun. And knowing that readers will go back and read those chapters and say, I know him. Like, I know this guy.

I missed you. Yeah. It's also so fun to see him and Luther's dynamic in that scene.

Yeah.

There's a lot of their, I guess, quintessential, like, playful dynamics.

Yeah, I'd love to go. Right. I mean, maybe I will. Who knows? To write a few chapters of kind of before DM enters Luther's life and vice versa, because, you know, I know in my head what was going on. And I can sort of imagine Luther and Taryn's life in the palace and their life among the Corbois and, you know, dealing with everything that they dealt with and how close that that made them to really only have each other and to have that brotherly relationship where they definitely tease each other just mercilessly, but they also trust each other completely. And, you know, we also get like a little reference to Eleanor that I think is really sweet.

Yes.

We sort of start to lay the foundation for her. Her character and who she is so. It's just so fun to get those tiny little peeks at this Corbel life that is happening before DM's journey really begins in the book.

Exactly. I loved that. And also, you're. You're reminded where we are in the story. The armory fires just happened, and Taryn is like, is she in there right now? Who is this girl? It was so fun. And it's during also a moment where Luther is really going through his feelings and things. And like. Yeah, like the emotional turning point, maybe, or the weight of that.

Because he's not a man who has ever allowed himself to believe that he could really choose, you know, who he was going to be with. It was always going to be a very political decision that his kind of father had his hands in. And he's such a selfless guy. Like, it's all about what's good for the family, what's good for the people that he loves. He's always putting himself and his needs last. And I think this was really the first time maybe in his life that he realized, like, I want something for myself. But obviously in this context, especially with the limited knowledge he has, you know, it doesn't look like something he's ever going to be able to get right for so many different reasons.

So many.

His poor yearning and like, the. The trauma of wanting something, finally wanting something and not being able to have it, I think is. Is heartbreaking.

Yes. There's a lot of yearning there.

It's very.

And then one of the other big things in this bonus chapter is we see the king pass away on page with Luther there. And a lot of ominous things are said here as they are, you know, of course, in this world. Yes. But it also was interesting to get to see Luther kind of deal with the complex emotions around his uncle, you know, and him dealing with. I don't believe in what he did, but he also was a father to me.

Yeah.

And that was really interesting insight.

I feel like very complicated relationship. It would. Again, it would be so nice to go back and maybe write some scenes of them, you know, the two of them, because I can imagine what that relationship was like and how complicated it was because Luther had so few people in his life that he could trust. And so I think maybe that made him latch on to people that even though he didn't agree with everything and maybe he really had some issues with their choices, you know, it's just complicated. It's really nuanced and complicated for him and continues to be throughout the series as he Wrestles with, you know, the choices that he made and didn't make and, you know, the things that he's been a part of.

Exactly. And loyalty and family and found family.

Exactly. Like biological family versus found family, I think are both play a big role in this series. And kind of the balance of. Of those two things.

100%. Okay. So the king. So the king is dying, and he says a few things. One, he's like, find the girl, the gray eyes. Which now Luther having that in his head going into glow is wild. Fascinating. But one of the main big takeaways for me was the sword comment. He said, use the sword. Can you tell me if. Is that. That's the sword of Courbois. Is he talking about that?

I cannot. I can neither confirm nor deny anything.

The way that I am going to spiral about this, like, no sleep. Great check. Okay. But yes, that. That moment of him saying, you must use the sword.

Yeah.

Interesting. Ominous. Okay.

It's gonna be interesting. It's definitely. Yeah. We have yet to see exactly where that will lead.

Okay. I was gonna ask, by the end of Heat, have we seen this sword be used in the manner in which the king is speaking? Speaking.

I think we have much to see about swords in book four. Let's say that.

All right. Because we also know there's the sword in the vision.

Yes. Which is.

Okay. All right. Okay.

Yeah.

Okay. Interesting. All right. Okay. And then he doesn't get the crown. But we do also know within even just this little text, that he doesn't really want the crown. Like, he told. He hinted that a little bit to Taryn, and he. His feelings about it are complicated, you know?

Yeah. I don't. I mean, I think it's fair to say that he does not seek leadership positions. I mean, he is the kind of person who will take the lead if no one else does or if the person who's doing it is doing a bad job. But he doesn't seek out fame and recognition. And leadership has been thrust on him based on the circumstances of his birth, based on how much power he has, you know, for all these. These reasons that he had no control over, really. So I definitely think he imagined in his head that if the crown came to him, he would be the best king that he could be. But he certainly wasn't praying for it or, like, hoping it would come to him.

Yes.

Yeah. But he. We definitely. He is a man who will. If he thinks he needs to do something about it, he will. So I think just because it didn't come to him doesn't necessarily mean that he's not going to involve himself in that further. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Amazing. Yeah. And then getting to see the moment that he realizes that it's that DM has the crown. Yeah.

Well, this is one of those things where if you have not read Glow, Please earmuff right now, because I'm about to make a big spoiler. But, you know, at the end of Glow, we have that moment where we're not sure if he's betrayed her or not. And so I had to be very careful about what I revealed about his motivations. And at the beginning of Glow, as well, we're kind of not sure, like, does. Does he want to get rid of her because he wants the crown or does he not? And I think, even though, as the reader, maybe we're pretty sure that he's, like, on Diem's side, DM is not right. She does not trust him. So we had to protect a little bit of the secrecy of that. But I think if you've read later on in the series, you can understand why when he says he needs to find her, it's not for nefarious reasons. For sure.

Exactly. Yeah. It's like, I need to find my queen. Yeah.

It's more the fulfillment of this fate that he thinks is on him.

Exactly, exactly. And that's such a great point that that moment at the end of Glow, you have to think about that and how is that writing this, making sure that it matched up or nothing was given away for so much more content that had already.

Right.

I mean, he's a thousand pages.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was tough. It was definitely tough. And I actually had to find quite a few Beta readers who had only read Spark and no other book to read it and say, you know, does this make sense? You know, what are your thoughts to sort of say to see if people who were in that position would get as much from it as people who have read on and who are, you know, picking up all these little things. Right.

And who are.

[Christina]

Like the sword.

[Pen Cole]

What sword?

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. Oh, that's just. That's so fun. And how was it writing in Luther's point of view was that easy to slip into? Was it?

Well, so again, if you have not read Heat Ear Muff for a minute, I. A very large chunk of Byrne is written in Luther's pov. Quite a. Quite a lot of it. And so, you know, I've been writing in his head for the many, many months as I've been working on Berne So it was actually a very natural kind of progression to be able to do that. Because at this point now I feel like I've established who he is and his voice, at least in my head.

Yes.

And so that part was actually super easy because of where it kind of fell in my writing process.

That is so nice. And so now the. The first three chapters of Burn. Yeah, we get those through your newsletter, and they're so good, and it's so fun to be back. So now, was this always how you envisioned Luther finding out she had the crown? Like, was this where you always thought Luther was during these pages?

Yes and no. I think originally I had envisioned Lily being the one to tell him because, you know, as See and Glow, that she kind of spills the beans a little bit. But it was interesting to sort of reassess and say, well, what if he already knew? What if Lily was more just confirming something that maybe he didn't know for sure. But I think in his gut he knew. And again, particularly if you've read Glow all the way through, you know that as a child he was told, you're going to serve the Gray Eyed Queen. And so when he sees DM for the first time in Spark and he sees that she has gray eyes, he has a real moment of like, is this it? Is this my destiny to serve this woman? And he's definitely wrestling with like, what role does this woman play in my story and mine and hers. Exactly. And so I think at that moment, when the crown doesn't come to him and he sees the beam of light kind of in the vicinity of where she lives, I think that's when things fall into place for him and he realizes, this is the Gray Eyed Queen I was meant to serve. And it's just everything sort of clicks for him that this is it.

Love that.

Yeah.

And this also comes right after this really pivotal moment between the two of them when he is like, you are lying to yourself. You can't tell me you don't feel this magic and feel these. So, yeah. So all of those pieces also falling into place for then this to happen is just so cool to see and so fun to know what's happening to him off page.

Like, you know, that's exactly.

That's the fun.

Exactly. Because this is so Diem's journey and his obviously are very intertwined. And to we see Diem, who is just kind of running, flying blind. Right. She doesn't know what's happening to herself at any given moment. And I think Luther, he has a bigger picture, or at least in his perspective, sees what Lumnos, like the goddess Lumnos, is doing and believes that this is all fated. This is all meant to happen. And so it's interesting to pair DM with, like, what the hell is going on? With Luther saying, this is what I was always meant to be. This is fate becoming real. So those are two very different. Two very different perspectives on what is happening in the story.

Yes, absolutely. And they're coming together of those, and it's just. It's so beautiful. Okay. Is there maybe more Luther POV content to come?

There certainly is. The glow. So the. The Hardcover edition of Glow, which is out in December 3rd, also has a Luther POV bonus chapter. And I'm so excited about it. It is a confrontation between Luther and Henry.

Shut up.

Yes. Yes.

Oh, my.

I know. I know. I'm so. It was so fun to write. And my editor here, Atria, when she read it, she was like, oh, my God. So I. It's so cool. It's. It happens in glow during the Ascension Ball. We see Luther come to DM and say, like, I let Henry out, you know, and sent him home. And so we kind of know that they met with each other, but we. Luther doesn't really let slip much about what happened. And so we get to see what happened. And I think it reveals so much about both of them. I love both of those characters. Everybody knows I'm a big Henry lover, and obviously, I am a huge Luther fan, of course, but I. It reveals quite a lot about both of those men and how much they care about her, even though they show it in very different ways.

That's fascinating, because. Yeah, that is a big piece of the Henry puzzle, that they do have such a history, and they do. They've known each other since they were toddlers. Right. Like, very small. And he is important to dm. So, yeah, thinking about him and his feelings towards her, his history with her, and then that compared with Luther's, and.

That night, for Henry in particular, for Luther also and for dm, is a very pivotal night. The events that happened that night change everything in the world. And we don't get to see it for quite a long time. We see little bits of it. But in Henry's case, that's the night where he sees DM betray him, at least in his mind. Right. He thinks DM has betrayed him and turned on him and chosen the descendant over him. And I think we really see how he processes that mentally and how Luther. I don't want to give away too much, but that he and Luther have a bit of a discussion about it. And I think how Luther reacts and how Henry reacts is quite interesting.

Oh, my God. I'm so excited.

It's so good. I'm so. I'm so excited for everybody to read it. I think it's gonna be really fun.

What a holiday present, right?

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. And yeah, you've always really, you know, been steadfast in your. Henry. Henry love. I think this is going to be such a fun one to read.

Yeah, it will. And hopefully it gives people a reason to maybe open their mind a bit about the character, in particular Henry, and see maybe some nuance in him that they didn't see before. Because when we're reading through for the first time, we're kind of all on team Luther. Right. And we're, like, rooting for him to come out on top. And so I think once we. With the benefit of knowing how that ends, I hope that on maybe a reread, people can see a bit more nuance or depth to Henry's story outside of just his role as kind of the foil to the love interest.

I think that is. Yes, absolutely. So true. When we're rereading, when we're looking back, the lens will not be clearly Luther over him.

So what are we doing?

Because he does have a journey in burn, I think you hinted in our previous interview. So I think. Yeah, I think that'll be really interesting.

It sure will.

Oh, my gosh. Okay, so a few little fun rapid fire questions.

Okay.

Okay. All right. Who was your first book boyfriend?

Jocelyn from Koshiel's Dart. Yeah. Which I think we might have talked about. I think we did this one, but it's the love interest in that series. And I mean, there's honestly kind of a lot of similarities. Like, he, the most devoted. Right. Would do anything to protect her, but doesn't believe he's good enough for her. Like, oh, rip my heart out.

Love it.

I'll fold every time.

Yes. We eat up with a spoon. I love it. Okay, I need to read this.

Yeah. And they just actually. Because Romantasy is kind of back on a high, and even though that series was 25 years ago, Jacqueline Carey just released a book from his pov. So we're getting new content two decades later. What a queen.

What a queen. Also, that's so fun.

I know. It is.

That's amazing.

Hopefully bring in a whole new generation of readers for that series.

Yeah, I love that. Okay, who's your most recent book? Boyfriend. Besides Luther and Henry.

Let's see. I just finished Stephanie Archer's newest book, the Wingman. And Hayden is just the cutest. I. I love all of Steph Archer's MMCs. They're just all the sweetest, most like devoted men.

Incredible.

She writes great MMCs. And so I was really excited to. To read that one.

I have that on my Kindle right now. I'm very excited about it. Okay. If you could co write a book with any other author, dead or alive, who would it be?

I. I think it would have to be the Zodiac Academy sisters, because when I read their book, think, like, what mind created this? Like, where did this come from? Especially if you've ever read their Death Club series or like Jerry from Geraldine from Zodiac Academy. They just have the most off the wall, wild, crazy ideas. And I think sitting in a writer's room with them and listening to the ideas they come up would be the most fun time that I would ever have. I feel like you just laugh your head off all day long.

It'd be so fun. It would be such a blast.

I. I would have the best time of my life.

Do you have an opinion on the Zodiac reading order of the prequels? Like, what is the ideal order? Do you.

So the idea. So the ideal order, I think, would be, unfortunately, to break up the Zodiac Academy series. So to read, like, I think the first three or four, basically, until right before you meet Gabriel and then go read Ruthless Boys in full and then come back to the series. That's not how I read it. I read Zodiac Academy through, I think, book seven and then read Ruthless Voice. And I was like, oh, wait, I've met all of these characters. And it was kind of jarring to go from Gabriel in Zodiac Academy to Gabriel and Ruthless Boys, like, when he was in his Evo, like, angry boy phase. So I would have loved to have read those first and see the journey he goes on, you know, in becoming the man that he becomes and to get all those little inside jokes because there's so many inside Joe. Yeah, I love that.

I. I think that is a perfect reading order. What is your. Do you have an opinion on the Throne of Glass?

[Christina]

Have you read Throne of Glass?

[Pen Cole]

Oh, yeah.

What is your opinion on?

I have a very strong opinion. I know that my readers who are in my Discord are hearing this question, are laughing their heads off.

Do you have an opinion?

This is My Roman Empire. I feel incredibly strongly about this. Incredibly strongly that Assassin's Blade has to be read first. I feel so strongly about this. And the reason why is because there's a lot of reasons that we could talk about this for two hours. To be honest, I have a. I literally have a PowerPoint presentation on this that I have shown to you.

God, I love you.

I. When you start book one right, and we meet Celaena, she is angry. She is. People describe her as bratty, immature, you know, kind of cocky, arrogant, whatever. And I think if you start Throne of Glass and that's all you know of her, you are just missing her story. You know what I mean? And I agree she's not super likable when you start only knowing that here's this teenage assassin who's, you know, kind of childish, kind of whatever, but if you understand what she has just been through and the trauma that she has faced and the defense mechanisms she's had to develop to survive what she has survived, you see it in an entirely, entirely different light. You see her for. I just think you have so much sympathy for her. You understand her motivations a lot better, like why she does certain things in Throne of Glass and Crown of Midnight. And I just think it's two different stories. It really is two different stories. And it's sort of like you can tell somebody, oh, this person's really sad because X happened, or you can watch X happen and watch the person they were before and the person they became after and how it changed them. It's just night and day. It's night and day. So for me, I think you have not done the Throne of Glass experience. If you didn't. If you haven't read Assassin's Blade and then gone into Throne of Glass with all of that context there.

So we are usually very adamant that it's third because we don't feel like the world building's there. I also, for me as a human, if I had read that and the end of Assassin's Blade is her just in utter devastation.

Like, do I.

What do I just keep going? However, I truly, really, really think experiencing Throne of Glass with Assassin's Blade in your mind would totally shift how you.

See her, almost with 100% accuracy. I can tell what order people read it in by asking people how they feel about ce, how do you feel about her? And if they don't really like her, if they kind of think she was annoying, bratty, whatever, it's like almost always that they read it third. And if they really think she's a badass, think that she's strong and overcome so much, and they have sympathy for her it's almost always that they read Assassin's Blade first. And I get it, because depending on how you're introduced to her really impacts, I think, the perceptions you have of that character. It's hard once you establish how you feel about a character. It's hard, really hard to change that, even if you later learn information about them.

Totally, totally.

So I. I just. I feel so strongly. And I know they say, like, the romantic order or whatever is, like. Or the most emotional impact. I don't think that's true at all. I think that when you see who she was before, like, how that happens and then how the fallout from it. Right. And you kind of go on that journey with her. To me, I think it's the more devastating, like, impactful, poignant way to read it, especially in Heir of Fire, because for me, Heir of Fire is her coming to terms with what happened in Assassin's Blade. I don't think you can understand Air of Fire if you haven't read all of that.

I absolutely agree. I also think that Air of Fire is such a shift in the series. It's hard then to go back.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

And I was reading them as they were coming out at a certain point, and so I didn't read them, really, until I had finished the journey, and then I went back, and even then, when we did our full rereads, we did it that order with Assassin's Blade first, and it really did allow you to pick up on every single little insight, every single little, you know, devastating detail. Yeah. I have other questions, but I know. I'm just curious what is.

And I could talk about Chrono Glass all day. I love that series so much.

What is your thought on the tangent read for Tower of Dawn?

Oh, yeah. 100% tandem read.

Okay.

And it's. It's such a beast. And it's so annoying to, like, set up and do. I get it, I get it. I get it. But I'm telling you, the cliffhanger at the end of Empire of Storms, and I think Tower of Dawn is a phenomenal book. Like, it's wonderful. I just don't think you can appreciate it as much with the cliffhanger hanging over your head. You know what I mean? And. And just wanting to get back to the. The. The story elsewhere in the world.

That's. That's. I think, part of the reason people have the feelings towards Tower of Land. They do, because we were all living in the cliffhanger of Empire of Storms, and then we were like, okay, we've Waited two years. Here it is.

[Christina]

And then it was like, what I know.

[Pen Cole]

And so I do think there's great things in that book. I love your reading, and Kim is Cale's number one fan, and I, of course, that lens. Then I see his greatness. But I think that that book there is beautiful. Great parts of it, but I think that the hanging over you really hit on something there. That phrasing of that hanging over your.

Like, I don't have any insight on this. Me and Sarah J. Maas are not besties. Unfortunate, but I will put down money that I think she wanted them to be published as a single book, that she wanted it to be the way that the tandem is structured. But her publisher said, you got to cut these up, right? It's too long because Kingdom is a thousand pages. So I'm telling myself that that was the. The author's intended way to read it, even though I don't know that.

I think you have something there in the length, you know, it's okay. So sorry. Back to this.

So.

So if you could choose any character in your books to go to dinner with, like, oh, I want to call blank to go to dinner.

The queen of umbra, hands down. Can you imagine how fun that dinner would be?

Like, wild.

You might not make it out of life, but you would have the best time. You would have stories for days.

Oh, my God.

She'd flirt with you, she'd drug you. She would hook you out with somebody very hot. Like, you'd have a blast.

What a fun character to write. And that world. Yeah. Was that so fun to write that?

I love that world. I love her. And I still, to this day, couldn't tell you if she's, like, really good or bad. Like, I don't know either, to be honest. But she, you know, we reference this in the book. I don't think you get the sense that she's super old, but she is. She's lived a very, very long time. She's seen so much more of the world than most of the characters have. And she also is very close with her patron, you know, kindred, and has some insight on things that no one else has. And so I think that combined her magic, plus the time she's been around, plus that has made her just absolutely reverent. She, like, does not care what anybody else thinks of her or whatever. She's crazy in the best possible way.

[Christina]

In the best possible way.

[Pen Cole]

I think her prophecy or her last conversation with DM is the one that I'm the most nervous about especially the prophecies can be taken different.

And I'm so glad that you mentioned that because that to me is a very important line that people don't pick up on a lot. But she says that prophecies can have many different meanings and some of the maybe riddles or prophecies we have seen do not have just one simple explanation. So that's all I will say about that.

She is, yeah, she, she's like the riddles.

[Christina]

But also there's, there's important stuff there.

[Pen Cole]

You can tell. She's like, I need you to just pick up what I'm putting down. Exactly.

Don't do anything calmly.

Oh, no, no, nothing. Never. Oh, okay. So do you have any dream like fan casts for Luther dm?

I have a fan cast on my Instagram me arguing with my disc discord. So I picked my fan cast and they voted. Got very heated. Very controversial as you'll see if you read the comments. But I. So if I could cast that myself, I think I would pick no name actors. Like, I don't think I would want super famous people because I really love, especially in fantasy when you can really imagine that person is that character and not like famous person X playing character.

Love Henry Cavill. But like, yes, we need.

He's Henry Cavill. He'll never be the character. He's always Henry Cavill. So I would love just a no name actor who's phenomenal, you know, but in, in terms of kind of visually what I see, I really like Zendaya as, as dm. I. She's kind of got sort of the look that I imagined for dm, but also I love that as an actress she really has like the comedy chops but also the emotional depth. We have seen her do both of those roles because she is very sassy, very dry humor, witty. But we in private, we see her really break down and have a lot of emotional lows.

100% agree.

And then my street team in particular Nicole found this. I think he's Turkish actor named Can Yaman and he is like Luther to a T. I mean he is like incredible. Chef's kiss. Perfect Luther in particular Luther. In book four, we see Luther maybe have a bit more of a rugged side. There might be a beard involved.

Stop it. Oh my God.

Yeah, yeah. And so I think that's very Can Yama.

Yeah, Rugged Luther. Here we go.

I know, I know. He sort of let himself go, but in like the sexiest way. Of course.

In the sexiest way. Well, we are so excited for Burn but you just have given us such a gift with these three books in one year. Like truly, it's more than anyone could ask for. So we will be so excited for Burn and just here for the whole journey to support you if we can.

I know, I know that readers are very, very ready to have the end of the series. It's definitely coming in the not too distant future. I've heard some speculation that it could be years now that I'm traditionally published. That's not the case. I'm super thrilled to be working with Atria who they have a history of working with indie authors and they are completely aligned with me on getting these books to readers as quickly as possible. So we're already, I mean we were just having conversations about like rush, rush, rush to get things ready to go so that we can get them into readers hands asap. So books are coming very, very soon. It will not be years, I promise. And the delay anyway is on me as I want to make sure it's like the most perfect correct ending story.

And that's absolutely understandable. And what we love from you, that you take it so seriously and are giving us this perfect, beautiful ending to this story that we all love so much. And we will be here waiting.

Thank you.

And we will absolutely be picking up Spark of the Everflame and the New Glow.

Oh, it's so pretty. I love it so much.

It's also pretty. So thank you so much. Thank you for talking to me and being here in New York.

Great to be here. Thank you so much.

[Christina]

Wow, that was just absolutely amazing to get to talk to her about all of those things. Go in depth about Luther and then also Throne of Glass.

[Pen Cole]

I mean, are you kidding?

[Christina]

This was just such a dream for me. I had the best time with her and I cannot wait to hopefully get to chat with her more again in the future. Thank you guys for listening, for supporting on Patreon and rating and reviewing. All of your support means the world to us. And if you are not already, follow us on Instagram and TikTok at flights of Fantasy podcast. And until next time, cheers and happy reading friends. Bye Bye.