S6 : Ep 11 - Conform by Ariel Sullivan Part 1

Summary

Flights of Fantasy Podcast – S6: Ep11 “Conform by Ariel Sullivan, Part 1”

Release Date: April 7, 2026
Hosts: Anna, Kim, Kristina (with notable mentions of Ellen in discussion)

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Overview

In this episode, Anna, Kim, and Kristina delve into Ariel Sullivan’s Conform, a dystopian fantasy romance novel. The conversation centers on the book’s world-building, social structure, character analysis, romantic dynamics (including one of the best-executed love triangles in recent memory), and the series’ major themes of conformity, control, and the grey areas of morality. Part 1 focuses on plot set-up, the world’s disturbing social engineering, main character breakdowns, romantic entanglements, and several “dinner from hell” sequences. The hosts sprinkle personal insights and fandom humor throughout, making this a vibrant and nuanced recap for both readers and newcomers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nostalgic Dystopia for Adults

• Conform delivers the high-stakes, oppressive world-building reminiscent of YA dystopian icons (The Hunger Games, Divergent, Uglies) but ages up the themes and protagonists.
  • “It felt so nostalgic...like when a song from middle school or high school pops up and you just get that dopamine rush. Except adult.” —Anna (04:10)
  • The book pivots to adult topics (e.g. forced procreation) rarely seen in earlier dystopian fiction, filling a thematic gap for readers who grew up with YA and now want more mature nuance.

2. World Building: Caste System & Social Engineering

[06:03–15:36]

• History: Post-nuclear holocaust, humanity survives underground, then emerges under a regime (the Illum) obsessed with repopulation and genetic ‘purity’.
• Caste Structure:
  • Elites: Genetically “perfect,” no outward “defects.”
  • Minors: “Minor” genetic flaws (e.g., heterochromia), identified by gray clothing.
  • Majors: “Major” defects, wear blue; perceived as “mutants” or outcasts.
• The Illum: Mysterious, authoritarian, and almost religious in their control, although overtly anti-religion.
  • “If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck—it’s a cult... and it’s giving god.” —Anna (11:17)
  • Control is maintained via physical separation, isolationist policies, and division—“If you constantly pit people against each other they cannot come together and rebel up against you.” —Kim (12:16)
• Mating Contracts: Women are rotated for breeding every five years. If a minor produces a major or minor child, she is demoted. Elite women are protected from demotion—heightening inequity and fear.
• Children’s Removal & Education:
  • At age four, children are taken from parents to the Academy (“the parting”), intensifying trauma and perpetuating control.
  • Academy split by caste, with education focusing on compliance, not knowledge. Testing assesses obedience vs. individuality.

3. Character Breakdowns

Emmaline (Main Character)

[15:36–24:25]

• Refreshed by being a mid-20s protagonist (not the typical naive teen).
  • “It just feels really refreshing...it kind of does add this level of maturity.” —Kim (15:53)
• Works in pre-war art archives; has “defect” of heterochromia (one blue, one brown eye).
• Initially keen to conform due to internalized shame, but thoughtful, curious, and courageous enough to question and challenge societal cruelty.
  • “She isn’t blindly loyal...She does question the authority around her, but in a very thoughtful and intentional way.” —Kim (21:02)
• Key growth arc: From seeking acceptance to seeing the world’s shades of grey.
  • Early: “Elite. I saw a girl who knew nothing...a girl her birth father accepted.” (22:11)
  • Later: “There was no good or bad guy. There were no saviors, just varying shades of morally corrupt people with different lines in the sand.” —Emmaline (22:59)

The Caste System’s Impact (and Defect Logic)

• Society’s emphasis on visible ‘defects’ as justification for oppression.
  • “Her two colored eyes—people act like she’s Hunchback of Notre Dame; it’s not that big a deal.” —Kim (10:18)
  • The deliberate use of outward flaws vs. true genetics: “call them defects is ridiculous.”

The Illum

• “Saviors” who ban religion yet enforce devotion—with a system as dogmatic as any faith.

The Starlings – Rose and Violet

• Degrading, dehumanizing beauty treatments for women (akin to Hunger Games’ prep teams, but more dystopian).
• Rose and Violet’s secret love acts as both a source of info for Emmaline and a central challenge/hope motif:
  • “Attachment itself is a threat...the system is designed to eliminate real bonds.” —Anna (27:17)

The “Parting” and Parental Trauma

[28:00–30:19]

• At age 4, children are forcibly removed—host commentary is deeply emotional.
  • “You just have to have empathy and be human...the grief and the screaming. I was like, this is too real.” —Kim (29:19)
• Trauma is both personal (to mothers and children) and systemic.

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4. The Love Triangle: Hal vs. Colin

[30:37–61:17]

Hal (“Team Hal” – Kim)

• Genetically elite, but born to major parents—adopted by elites after parents’ execution.
• Associated with rebellion; first to bond with Emmaline over art and vulnerability.
• The “Moonlight” nickname and scenes (especially the rain scene [36:57–37:33]) highlight emotional and physical intimacy.
• Hal’s arc: Genuine connection or a tool of rebellion manipulation? The “fake”/real tension is heightened by later revelations.
  • “Knowing what we know later, was this even genuine or was this part of something more calculated?” —Kim (36:15)
• Deeply shaped by trauma—“I’d do anything for love.” (39:20)

Colin (“Team Colin” – Anna)

• Youngest member of the Illum; is the emotionally-unavailable, “enforcer” archetype.
• Intense, mysterious, rarely lets his guard down. Darkly charismatic (dreamcast as Henry Cavill).
• Public, calculated protection of Emmaline (e.g., staking his claim in front of her birth parents [47:43]).
• Scenes often orchestrated (flowers, chocolates, sky date), but with undercurrents of yearning and conflicting feelings:
  • “You are unlike everything I have ever known. You’re maddening, consuming...I have a role to play, and yet I spend my time thinking about you.” —Colin (59:52)
• Implied to be playing a deeper game—possibly not loyal to the Illum, with theories of double-agent or Reaper status.

Commentary on the Love Triangle Structure

• One of the best since Infernal Devices; both choices are emotionally compelling.
• “It’s incredibly well done—almost too well done, because I’m leaving the book not knowing whose team I’m on!” —Kim (54:55)
• The “why choose” impulse: the triangle is so balanced, the hosts joke they refused to pick a side afterwards.

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5. Family and the Dinner(s) from Hell

[61:21–68:48]

Dinner #1: Emmaline’s Biological Family

• Vincent (biological father): condescending, narcissistic, places the blame for Emmaline’s “defect” on her.
  • “You were a disgrace the moment you opened those hideous eyes. All of my hard work, damned.” —Vincent (65:06)
• Helen (biological mother): broken, traumatized, possible victim of abuse, hinted at internal conflict.
• Gregory (biological brother): protective, warm, the only bright spot in the family dynamic.

Dinner #2: The Elite Dinner Party

• Colin hosts; Emmaline becomes witness to the casual cruelty of the elite, including a public execution.
  • Colin orders the execution because “everything I do is for the greater good.” ([70:13])
  • Hosts debate Colin’s emotional culpability, questioning manipulation, remorse, and the nature of moral compromise.

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6. Major Themes and Thematic Quotes

Power, Control, & “Conformity”

• “Prosperity of peace is the cornerstone of our great success. This can only be achieved by eliminating all threats, physical and mental, that cause discord. The illum’s persistent endeavor of eradication of these anomalies protects our way of life. Key word: conformity.” (08:20)
• The system justifies everything, including trauma and murder, for the “greater good” — a callback to real-world totalitarianism and cult psychology.

No Black & White – Moral Ambiguity

• “There was no good or bad guy. There were no saviors, just varying shades of morally corrupt people with different lines in the sand.” —Emmaline (22:59)
• “We all become evil to save the people we love. You have no idea what you would do when confronted with something like this.” —Anna, paraphrasing Nora (78:08)
• The book repeatedly undermines clear definitions of “hero” and “villain” — rebels can be cruel, the authority can be sympathetic, everyone is acting out of what they perceive as necessity.

Agency, Hope vs. Fear, and Defiance

• “In order to have true control and power, you must have duality of fear and hope.” —Tabitha’s reasoning for selecting Emmaline (20:20)
• Emmaline’s arc centers on acting despite enormous personal risk, showing how courage often means creating tiny cracks in a monolithic system.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with timestamps)

• “It’s a cult. And it’s giving superior being. It’s giving god.” —Anna (11:15)
• “You aren’t what I expected. You weren’t planned.” —Hal to Emmaline (60:20)
• “You are unlike everything I’ve ever known. You’re maddening, consuming, unwilling to follow any of their rules. I have a role to play, and yet I spend my time thinking about you.” —Colin (59:52)
• “But if we killed each other endlessly, how would the cycle of misunderstood murder stop? Which side was right? There were good people in the clouds as well as bad. Status alone didn’t determine who should be saved.” —Emmaline’s inner monologue (77:02)
• “No one is all good or all bad. Each person has their breaking point, their line in the sand. Maybe find out Colin’s before you write him off completely.” —Nora (52:09)
• “If you control the youth, you control everyone.” —Anna, on Hal’s origin (33:34)
• “You make me crazy.” —Anna, joking about Colin & Hal’s reaction to Emmaline (44:51)
• “Helen seems beaten down, like an abused animal.” —Anna, on Emmaline’s mother (66:20)

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Segment Timestamps Overview

• Worldbuilding / Caste System / The Illum: [05:53–15:36]
• Emmaline Character Analysis: [15:36–24:25], [24:25–30:00] (via family/trauma)
• Love Triangle & Hal/Colin Deep Dive: [30:37–61:17]
• Family Dinners / Character Complexity: [61:21–68:48]
• Theme Synthesis & Foreshadowing: [76:57–end]

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Engagement & Tone

• The hosts combine adult reflection with fandom glee (“slut for a rain scene”), tender personal anecdotes, and incisive social commentary.
• They celebrate nuanced character work, admit to emotional whiplash over the triangle (“I just went and read a bunch of why-choose books because I refused to pick a side”), and do not shy from criticizing systems of control and abuse.
• Banter is warm, empathetic, sometimes irreverent, always book-club cozy.

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Final Notes & What’s Next

• Next episode: Art history deep-dive (with Anna), exploring the significance behind the chosen artworks; more on the ending twists, epilogue, theories (“Is Colin the Reaper?”), and the unresolved triangle.
• Listeners are encouraged to join the Patreon/bookclub community, and to come back for Part 2.

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Summary Created: For readers/listeners who want an engaging, thorough walk-through of the episode’s main content, key takeaways, quotable gems, and emotional highlights—without needing to listen start to finish.

Transcript

[Anna]

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[Kim]

Dine in only for a limited time. Price and participation varies. No substitutions offer valid per person per order.

[Anna]

Welcome to Flights of Fantasy, your Romantasy Podcast Book Club. I'm Anna, joined by my book besties Kim and Christina, and together we're diving into the characters, theories, lore and magic behind all your favorite fantasy romance books. Hi listeners, we are still so thrilled to be here discussing Conform by Ariel Sullivan.

[Kim]

Yay.

[Anna]

Oh my gosh. This has been such a joy. Before we dive in and give you our spoiler warning, Kim has some announcements.

[Kim]

I sure do. So first I just want to say thank you to everyone who has taken the time to rate and review the podcast wherever you listen to it. That truly helps us so much. If you are looking for a free way to support the podcast rating and reviewing it on your favorite podcast platform truly helps us so much. And so if you have done that, thank you so much. We truly appreciate you. And if if you haven't, please take a second to do so. Let's quickly chat about what we've got going on over on our Patreon for April. This is going to be such a big month. We are kicking things off with the very first episode in our brand new Mass Masterclass series. We are so incredibly excited. To tell you more about that, head over to our socials to get the lowdown on what that is. We've also got chapter chats on Rites of the Starlings by Deveny Perry, the sequel to Shield of Sparrows. Plus we've got a booked with Kim episode featuring a book haul, my current TBR and some behind the scenes podcast goodies. And Anna is bringing you a full reading guide to one of her favorite romance authors, Brittany Nicole. So come join our Patreon family [e-mail] Flights of Fantasy podcast. We would absolutely love to have you. And again, speaking of Patreon, I want to shout out some very, very special tier 2 book bitches. One of the many benefits of being one of our tier two book bitches is that you get a special shout out in one of our episodes. So in this episode, we are going to be shouting out Stephanie V. Amanda woods and Laura S. Thank you guys so, so much for your support. Truly, truly, you guys are the reason that we can keep doing this. And we are just so grateful for you.

[Anna]

I know we sound like a broken record every time we. I know. But it's, like, so true.

[Kim]

It's so true. Like, our patrons are truly the reason that we get to do this, and we are just so grateful for all of your support.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

And we just love you guys. And we are so excited to chat Conform.

[Anna]

Okay, so, listeners, consider this your official spoiler warning for Conform by Ariel Sullivan.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Oh, my gosh, Kim. How much fun was this book?

[Kim]

It was so fantastic. It was so nostalgic. Listeners, you know that Anna and I read Silver Elite previously, and that was not my favorite. I know many people loved it, and I love that for them. Just personally, it didn't really work for me. And so I was a little hesitant going into Conform, but it had received such rave reviews from people that, like, don't even read fantasy or dystopian romance or anything. And we were just so hyped to read it. And I feel like from page one, you and I were like, I freaking love this.

[Anna]

I remember texting you guys, being like, I'm locked in.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Like, immediately.

[Kim]

We were, like, one chapter in. Yeah.

[Anna]

I was totally locked in. It felt so. This sounds so weird, and please don't take this the wrong way, but it felt so nostalgic.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And it made me happy. Yes. It's a dystopian world and it sucks. Right. But there's something that it. It's like when you hear a song pop up on your playlist that's from middle school or high school, and it immediately triggers these, like, happy. You release endorphins, and you just feel like that's a dopamine rush of, like, happiness when you were young.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

That's what reading this book felt like to me. Except adult.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Like, make it for my age group. Our age bracket. And I loved that.

[Kim]

Yeah. And I think you and I kind of grew up. Not grew up, but when we were a little bit older. The Hunger Games, Divergent Match, the Uglies the uglies, like all of those series were huge in our kind of formative reading years. And so going back to this, it just felt like that time in our lives when everything was dystopian. Like literally every popular book coming out was dystopian. And it's hard to do well. And I thought this was handled so incredibly well. I think Ariel did an incredible job.

[Anna]

Agree.

[Kim]

And I just loved it.

[Anna]

I agree. I think when we were younger, a lot of those dystopian books really focused on coming of age stories and the younger like 18 year old being introduced into this new part of society because they're all of a sudden of age. And in this it was very different because it's about procreation, which is not a child, middle school, high school subject that is usually discussed in those YA dystopian books. And so it felt like it was, like I said, for the next age bracket. It's an adult dystopian book, but still has that kind of romance and romantic lean that we all love to read now and what we cover on the podcast. So it was just. It ticked every single box.

[Kim]

Absolutely. Agreed. Okay, let's dive in fully.

[Anna]

All right, so world building.

[Kim]

Yay. World building with Enosby we haven't done

[Anna]

because we've been in our acotar revisit and we have not done world building and so long.

[Kim]

Oh, it feels good to be.

[Anna]

Good to be back, folks. Okay, so obviously it's a dystopian world. There has been a great war nuclear holocaust level. The humans were surviving underground until it was safe to emerge. There's been a rebuilding process with a heavy focus on repopulating the earth. Now I do wanna make a note here. At the time that we are recording this episode, the prequel Beneath has not yet been released. So everything that we discuss in terms of world building in this world is what we know from book one of Conform. We're very excited to read the prequel. And I think that the architects of that world probably did not intend for what happened in Conform. So I'm really excited to read that. But with that being said, repopulation seems to have been a big focus of the initial architects of this world. I mean, it makes sense. They needed to have genetic compatibility between humans. Obviously if you're trying to procreate, you're going to isolate for the best pairings to have successful offspring that will survive and be healthy. And you know, I think that Conform makes a point of this in the book that the humans have to be careful of Inbreeding, because there obviously are not enough genetic pools to pull from to create children. So I'm guessing that this is also going to be what's discussed in the prequel Beneath. And I'm excited about that.

[Kim]

Yeah, for sure.

[Anna]

I mean, I think it's just a classic example of dystopian. To use genetics to segregate a population. Right. We've seen that in all of YA books.

[Kim]

So many.

[Anna]

You know, if you isolate naturally, then isolates into a caste system and then it lends itself to this authoritarian rule.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Especially if you have one population that's deemed as quote, unquote, elite. Right.

[Kim]

Yeah. I mean, first thought was like the uglies and the pretties, which. That was a more like YA kind of like. Yeah. Not dumbed down, but more kind of simplistic.

[Anna]

Totally.

[Kim]

But it's so class classic. And I just feel like Ariel did such a great job. It felt so real.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Felt a little. A little too real sometimes, but I just think she did a great job at making it easy to understand. But there also was a message, and I think that was maybe some people's issue.

[Anna]

Absolutely.

[Kim]

When you have a dystopian romance is like a dystopian book is supposed to have a point, have a political message. And I feel like there was definitely one in this book. And I felt like that was a definite through line.

[Anna]

Absolutely.

[Kim]

That Ariel kept throughout with the Elam, with the elites and the majors and the minors. And you just felt that throughout the whole book.

[Anna]

I agree. So speaking of this, like kind of breakdown of the population, we have a caste system in this book. And I want to start with this quote from Emmaline's lesson at the academy. It says, prosperity of peace is the cornerstone of our great success. This can only be achieved by eliminating all threats, physical and mental, that cause discord. The illum's persistent endeavor of complete eradication of these anomalies protects our way of life. Key word there. Conformity.

[Kim]

Yep.

[Anna]

So I just thought this was a great line to kind of sum up where we are in this book. Like you said, the through line. And when she says they're eliminating all physical and mental threats that cause discord, essentially, that's free thought.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

They're not saying that freedom of speech.

[Kim]

Nope. That didn't exist.

[Anna]

That doesn't exist. But they're coloring it in. They're making it look pretty. They're making it sound like they're using words like discord. You know, if you have free thought, it's gonna. That's how we got to the Great War.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Right. It's very smart. It's cult. It's cult.

[Kim]

Culty.

[Anna]

So let's break down the caste system. At the top we have the elites. They are deemed, quote unquote, genetically perfect. They also don't appear to have any physical outward defects. Below them are the minor defects. They wear gray. To isolate them and to make where they are stand in the caste system known. They have possible physical defects like we see with the heterochromia, and also minor genetic defects in their gene pool. We'll get to that. More on that in a second. And then below them is the major defect population. They wear blue. And we know the least about this faction before Emmaline is introduced to them in the book. We see Hal. She, like, essentially thinks they're mutants.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Like, she's never seen, like, they're aliens. She's like, oh, my God, they must be hideous.

[Kim]

I'm like, they're wearing blue. It's a fabulous color. Like, I would love that.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Hello.

[Anna]

I think we. Obviously, it becomes apparent to us as we read the book that these groupings of humans. I don't really think there's anything genetically wrong.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

I mean, maybe, like, we all have genetic mutations throughout the population, but I

[Kim]

don't think that to call them defects is like. I mean, we'll get to it. I think it's ridiculous that her two colored eyes, she's basically. People act like she's Hunchback of Notre Dame, like she has two different colored eyes. Like it's not that big of a deal.

[Anna]

Yeah. I'm excited to get to this more, especially in part two. So at the tippy top of the food chain, we have the illum. And this is the quote again from the beginning of the book, from a memory, from one of Emeline's lessons at the Academy says their conflicting beliefs and ideologies created an irreparable divide that had resulted in near extinction. They're referring to the previous humans. The illum had knitted it all back together, saving humanity. The illum had seen to the rebirth of society, illuminating the best way forward with their superior intellect. The Academy portrayed the illum as saviors of mankind. Gods and religion had no place here. We could only trust in the illum, unseen, yet always watching y'. All.

[Kim]

Interesting.

[Anna]

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a

[Kim]

duck, it's a duck. AKA it's a cult.

[Anna]

It's a cult, and it's giving superior being. It's giving God.

[Kim]

Oh, 100 to me. When I first started reading this book, I was like, are they gods? Like, I actually thought, like, yes. Are they actual gods?

[Anna]

It was giving, like, alien. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kim]

Like overseeing the world, looking down. Superior intellect, Saviors of mankind. It's interesting that they say gods and religion had no place here. We could only trust the Elam.

[Anna]

Again. Control.

[Kim]

Oh, totally. Control.

[Anna]

We are referencing back to the things that possibly destroyed the previous population. Right. Religion. One of the most largest reasons for war is religion. In our current society, if you go back, no matter how many thousands of years you go back, religion is one of the main causes of war.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

So to reference that is very smart of the illum. And they're saying, we're not them. We are here with your best interests at heart. There's no worshiping a God. But they are.

[Kim]

No, they are. Yes.

[Anna]

We're still going to keep our foot on your neck.

[Kim]

And I feel like their main purpose is to alienate people against each other, against the different. The cast. And so to me, that was very, very smart because if you constantly are pitting people against each other, they cannot come together.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And rebel up against you.

[Anna]

You have your own private living quarters. The whole setup is Emmeline's not supposed to see people outside. It's very structured. The doors are locked. Yeah. They lock you in and they lock you in. It's women against women. It's everyone's v have a mate. And women are for breeding. And it's just very. Every single part of this structure is to make you feel subordinate, isolated, lonely,

[Kim]

like you can't trust other people.

[Anna]

It's a cult. That's exactly what happens in a cult.

[Kim]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Anna]

You know, we love our cults, guys.

[Kim]

We just. We love to hate them.

[Anna]

And it's not a cutesy cult.

[Kim]

No, this is not. This is very Handmaid's Tale cults.

[Anna]

Very Handmaid's Tale. If Handmaid's Tale was successful for years and years into the future. So moving quickly through this next part, another part of the world building is the mates and the mating contracts, essentially. A mating contract lasts about an average of five years, start to finish. You have the courting phase, you move to procreation, and then you have the maternity phase for women, if things go well. And you could also have a cohabitation with your mate, especially if you're a minor. All elites still live up in the clouds, but if you are a minor, that would be positive for you to, like, aspire to have a cohabitation. With your elite mate. If they don't go well, then you have to raise your offspring in the sanctuary until they're four years old. So this process repeats itself endlessly, I guess, until a woman can no longer procreate. If you produce a defect, though, this is what it says. If you produce a minor or major offspring, your procreation abilities will be revoked and you will be condemned to blue. Talk about putting the fear of God in women.

[Kim]

Truly and like, they have no control over that.

[Anna]

No. Absolutely no control. Again. I want to get our hands on those genetic breakdown.

[Kim]

Yeah. I'm not trusting anybody. Because we know that you can be changed from a major to a minor, from a minor to an elite. Like, they can change you willy nilly. I'm like, so is it about the genes or are you just using that as a front?

[Anna]

Hell no, it's not about the genes.

[Kim]

I don't believe that. For. If you're just changing things willy nilly, then it's never about the genes.

[Anna]

No, it's not.

[Kim]

But no one's like. I'm like, why is no one questioning that? Like, your status is getting changed.

[Anna]

No. And elite women don't get condemned to blue. It's only a minor mated woman. If she produces a major or a minor defect, then she gets condemned to blue.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

So like Helen, Emeline's mom.

[Kim]

Right. I was about to say, we know Emeline's mom did not get. She was never condemned to blue because she was an elite. Exactly.

[Anna]

So moving on. We have the academy. So at 4 years old, each offspring is removed from their parents care and enrolled in the Academy. This event is called the parting. We'll get to that a little bit more later.

[Kim]

Four is so young. That makes me ill. Makes me sick.

[Anna]

So there are two factions of the Academy. You have one side for the elites, another side for the minors. And your classification dictates obviously your type of education. You're constantly monitored. Regardless. They have tests to assess your ability to comply with the curriculum and what's expected of you. We're very excited to talk about this at the end of the book when we get to tea time with Tabitha in part two, because it's. I think it's very interesting the things that she. Little nuggets that she drops and I. It became kind of clear to us, I think, throughout the book that these tests are not really assessing whether or not you know the study material, but whether or not you have an aptitude for independent thought.

[Kim]

Ooh, yeah.

[Anna]

Versus someone who can follow orders.

[Kim]

Yep. Absolutely conform. Yeah, there you go. Exactly.

[Anna]

All right, so that is the world building in conform. Kim, will you talk about our leading lady, Emeline?

[Kim]

I would love to chat about her. Okay. We absolutely loved Emeline. Also, just want to take a moment to say I am so happy that she is not 18 or 19.

[Anna]

Thank you.

[Kim]

You know, nothing against those ladies, we love them. But Emeline is in her mid-20s and it just feels really refreshing for a female main character. And it kind of does add this level of maturity to her perspective. She does not feel immature. She does not feel like she's ignoring all of these red flags. Well, maybe some of them, but when it comes to boys, she's never had any experience. Okay.

[Anna]

And I was going to say also just on the note of procreation, her being her mid-20s. Thank God. Truly, it would make me feel really sick to my stomach.

[Kim]

It's like an 18 year old was. No, no, that's gross.

[Anna]

We'll get to Nora.

[Kim]

Oh, yeah. God, that is very sad. So, yeah, she's in her mid-20s. Emmaline is considered to have a, quote, minor defect. Okay. And she works in the archives where her job is to sort through artwork from before the last war. And we are talking about iconic pieces. Monet, Van Gogh, Picasso. So many recogniz artist make an appearance and each piece is either, quote, reassigned, which I need to know what that means. That's a very vague word. And I need to know where you are reassigning these pieces.

[Anna]

Are we burning paintings?

[Kim]

I pray to God not are we burning books?

[Anna]

I mean, like, what. How are you deleting them?

[Kim]

Yeah, like where are they going? Are they going?

[Anna]

I know, some end up in the blue, right? Some of them end up down with the major book defects.

[Kim]

And then we know that Colin has some artwork pieces in his home. And like, I think elites can also display some. So it's interesting, but it's a really chilling concept. And I loved the use of artwork in this story. And I think Ariel did such a fantastic job. And immediately, because the very beginning of the book is her looking at the Mona Lisa.

[Anna]

Oh my God. I know.

[Kim]

And you know, she doesn't say it's the Mona Lisa, but she describes it. And immediately the reader knows, oh my God, this is the Mona Lisa. And she deletes it. And I'm like, oh my God, made me sick.

[Anna]

As soon as she's like this woman was smirking, I was like, well, that's obviously the Mona Lisa.

[Kim]

Yes, it was instantly recognizable. It was chilling because you were like, oh, God, they're deleting famous pieces of artwork forever. And you instantly are like, this is depressing.

[Anna]

They've survived a nuclear holocaust and now you're deleting them.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

It's a cockroach.

[Kim]

Exactly. So also, Christina mentioned in an interview with Ariel Sullivan that she saw that the author shared every single piece of artwork included was chosen intentionally in Carrie's meeting within the story. Which means we have a very special treat coming in part two of this episode. Next week. It's going to be art history lessons with Anna.

[Anna]

I'm so excited.

[Kim]

You are welcome in advance. The outline for this is insane in the best way possible. Like, I cannot wait to break this down with Anna about all of these different art pieces and what they could potentially mean for the story.

[Anna]

Yeah, okay.

[Kim]

Meanwhile, Emeline's best friend Lo, is doing the same kind of work, but with books, which.

[Anna]

Oh, that kills my heart.

[Kim]

That kills me. That hurts me. That hurts.

[Anna]

I didn't love that.

[Kim]

It makes me a little bit ill. And I'm just gonna choose to not think about it because it's really depressing.

[Anna]

Yeah, I know, I know.

[Kim]

So let's talk about Emmaline's quote, defect.

[Anna]

Oh, God, cracks me up.

[Kim]

So Emily has heterochromia, which is one brown eye and one blue eye. And in this society, that is considered a flaw.

[Anna]

She's hideous.

[Kim]

I was like, you guys, she just has two different colored eyes. People were like, oh, my God, she's an ogre.

[Anna]

The way her father reacts to it.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Like, he's gonna throw up. Like, it physically makes him ill. And I'm like, yes, she is drop dead gorgeous.

[Kim]

Like, she's stunning. She has a blue eye and a brown eye. It literally was like in Wicked when Elphaba is born green and they're. Oh, my God, she's a monster. Exactly. It's uncanny. It's unseen. No. Okay.

[Anna]

But this is interesting because the whole book, we were laughing so hard, texting each other, like, anytime it came up in the book, we'd be like, oh, God, her two miscolored eyes. But then at the very end, this is really interesting, what Tabitha says about how that was actually planned. I go back to, like, how much was this planned? Did you do something in utero to Helen to make her have two different color eyes? Or did you pick her simply because she has two different color eyes? Because Tabitha insinuated. Insinuates that she chose Emmaline for the role. Like, she. Everything she did fell into place because Tabitha orchestrated it right. She is 10 steps ahead of everybody. And she says she picked Emmalene because she had a physical defect because it was so outwardly apparent to everyone why she was a minor because of her different colored eyes. But then to see her dressed in the colors of the elite allowed for the minors to aspire to something. She says that in order to have true control and power, you have to have duality of fear and hope. And to have the fear, that's the obvious part. Right. How they control everyone. Right. But the hope is that because she has such a physical outward appearance, but otherwise is beautiful, that it allows for the hope that, oh, if she can do it, so can I. I can aspire to this.

[Kim]

If she can rise up, so can I. Oh, that's so fascinating. That's so fascinating. Okay, so moving on. The story is told in first person pov, which feels very similar to, say, Feyre's perspective in A Court of Thorns and Roses. So we are experiencing everything through Emmaline's lens, which means we're getting a very specific and potentially limited version of events. But that being said, we really enjoyed her as our main female character. She has a good head on her shoulders, and her character arc, I think, felt very grounded and appropriate for everything that she goes through.

[Anna]

I agree.

[Kim]

And I think what stood out the most to us is that she isn't blindly loyal to the system that she was raised in. She does question the authority around her, but in a very thoughtful and intentional way. She's not like, recklessly.

[Anna]

Right.

[Kim]

Screwing things up and barging in places with no plan.

[Anna]

She's not creating more mess.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

You know, she's thoughtful about it. I feel like she recognizes her. She is a minor and she is being watched.

[Kim]

Definitely. But she is very curious, and I think that natural curiosity really becomes the driving force behind her character. And she doesn't just accept what she's told. She's very observant and she questions things, and she then eventually refuses to sit by in the face of injustice. She's like, I'm not going to just allow this to happen. And I think a perfect example of this is when she learns that those with major defects may be targeted and she risks her own safety to warn them, which clearly establishes that she's not a passive female main character. Like, she is going to act. She's going to save people who could be in harm's way.

[Anna]

Absolutely. What you want.

[Kim]

Exactly. Yes.

[Anna]

That's important. We needed to see her act on something so that she wasn't passive.

[Kim]

Yes. And it shows that she has a good moral compass. And moving forward, I think that will be important.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And I think one of the best ways to understand just how much Emmaline grows over the course of the book is looking at these two moments side by side. And the first is from page 29, right after the starlings complete her first makeover over. And she sees herself reflected back, wearing her contact lens, looking like a member of the Elite. And she says, glancing back at the woman in the mirror one last time, my throat tight at what I saw. Elite. I saw a girl who knew nothing of the surface in the archives, a girl who had done this countless times, a girl her birth family would be proud of, a girl her birth father accepted. And then we contrast this with the moment at the end of the book. This is during the battle between the rebels and the Elite force. And she's standing beside Colin, and she's kind of taking in the destruction around her. Her. And she says, there was no good or bad guy. There were no saviors, just varying shades of morally corrupt people with different lines in the sand.

[Anna]

I love that line.

[Kim]

God, that's so powerful.

[Anna]

So true. Right?

[Kim]

Totally.

[Anna]

In war, yeah, you have your side you're rooting for or whatever, but war is messy. It's war times.

[Kim]

It's. Guys, what do we always say? It's war times.

[Anna]

Put it on a shirt.

[Kim]

We really need to make merch to say it's war times, truly. And I agree. Like, I think everybody has different lines in the sand, right? Everybody has different things that they want to stand for. And when that line is crossed, that's too much for them, but it's different for everybody.

[Anna]

Exactly.

[Kim]

I think at the beginning, Emmaline was still kind of existing within that framework that she was raised in. She was constantly seeking approval, constantly aspiring to fit into this idealized version of, quote, the elites.

[Anna]

She won't take her contact out.

[Kim]

Oh, God. And that was so. I was like, take it out of your eye. I can't stand this.

[Anna]

How's, like, your eye isn't opening. She's like, what are you talking about? I can see just fine.

[Kim]

It's totally fine. He's like, you can't open your eye. And I'm like, emily, for the love of that peeling foot off your eyeball.

[Anna]

God.

[Kim]

But I do think by the end, her world view has completely shifted, and she realizes that morality is not black or white.

[Anna]

Right.

[Kim]

And that even the people who believe that they're doing the right thing can still cause harm on both sides. Because everybody does think that. I mean, Most people are acting in what they think is the cause, the right reason. Right. But that doesn't mean that they can't still do harm.

[Anna]

Nobody who is evil believes that they're evil. They believe that they're doing the right thing. Evil acts are done and carried out with such care and thoughtfulness in, like, how intense they are. Because that person. Person believes that they are doing something right.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

And it's only the outside perspective that is obvious. Like, it's obviously wrong. But that's what makes war so insane, is that you have two sides that believe they are right with such force.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

That then you collide and you have a war. And it's very interesting to see what's going to happen moving forward.

[Kim]

I'm excited to potentially get more POVs. Maybe in the next book.

[Anna]

Would love. I don't know how we're going to do that because the Reaper.

[Kim]

Oh, yeah. I would love it. I need Colin and Hal's pov, like, desperately. I desperately need. Especially Colin. I need Colin's pov if I have to pick one. I need Collins.

[Anna]

I need Collins. I need to get in that man's head.

[Kim]

I need to know what's going on inside that brain because he's given me nothing.

[Anna]

That beautiful face.

[Kim]

That beautiful, gorgeous face. We'll get there.

[Anna]

We'll get there.

[Kim]

Okay. So let's go through kind of the process with the starlings that I touched upon briefly.

[Anna]

Yes. Okay. So we have the degrading process. Right. And we learn the very first one happens on, like, page 30 of the book. The starlings named Violet and Rose. And the entire purpose of this is so well done. And it sets you up. I'm in a dystopian world because it is incredibly dehumanizing.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

They speak about her as if Emmaline is not in the room. They refer to her as an it. They are waxing and scrubbing her within an inch of her life. And I didn't think that I would grow to. I don't say I care and love Rose and Violet. I don't have enough of an attachment to them. But I thought I was going to. To hate them more.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Based on the first scene when we meet them because of just how much they treat her like an Other. But again, I think it's very clinical. It's very vulnerable to the nth degree.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

Emphasizing that women are cattle and vessels for breeding. It's all about outward appearance. It's giving District 1 Hunger Games.

[Kim]

Totally.

[Anna]

With the eye contacts covering up her blue eye, making them Both brown, everything. But I do think that these degrading appointments have a dual purpose. You know, I think if they become a source of knowledge for Emmaline, she learns about the Reaper and the Rebellion. It's all through bits and pieces. It's. I feel like this is a common theme in a lot of these books that we read. Right. That unfortunately, you only get little tiny nuggets of information.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

It's giving Elena tog. If you know, you know.

[Kim]

If you know, you freaking know.

[Anna]

That's right. But I do think she gets more straightforward information from Rose and Violet than she does from Hal and Colin.

[Kim]

I completely agree with you. They're shooting it straight with her. Like they're not sugarcoating stuff.

[Anna]

Exactly.

[Kim]

And they have a very unique perspective on things because they work for a lot of the elite and the Elam. And so they don't have the loyalty that either Colin or Hal do to their people or their cause. I think they're a little bit caught in the middle and they can see both sides of it.

[Anna]

Yeah, I agree. I think their purpose is to not just educate Emeline, but also us as readers. Right. That's how we're introduced to the Rebellion and the Reaper. And also by the midpoint, it's clear Violet and Rose are in love.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And, oh, gosh, you know that love directly challenges the illum's control. Right. For two big reasons. One, because it doesn't allow for traditional procreation in the way that the illum intended. But more importantly, number two, it's attachment itself is a threat to the illum. Right. Because the illum's current system eliminates bonds by rotating mates regularly every five years, by removing family. There's no last name. So removing family identity and separating children at such an early age. So it ensures that there is absolutely no true real form of connection that would then, like you said earlier, Kim, would be. Allow them to be strong enough to resist.

[Kim]

Yeah. It's so sad.

[Anna]

It's awful. Which also leads us to speaking of pulling children away, the parting. And it's Rose and Violet that actually kind of walk Emmeline through this, because Emmeline stumbles upon seeing if parting in real time. And she's never seen it before. She didn't quite understand because again, she grew up her first few years in elite society and then was taken away. And I think it was a very different experience than what she sees happen at the Sanctuary to these minor women. And it was really difficult for us to read. I really, truly don't believe you have to be a parent to understand how horrible the situation is. You just have to have empathy and be human. But it was a really hard scene to read. We couldn't even really talk about it in chapter chats because we had just finished reading it, and we just couldn't really get our thoughts across. Yeah, it was a really short scene, but, my God, did Ariel pack a punch? You know, it was so heartachingly tragic.

[Kim]

It really was. You know, we've talked a lot about how our perspective has changed since we became mothers, and it's made me soft, you guys. I just. There's so much now that I cannot stomach, and there's so much that I see through a completely different lens. But I think you. I mean, you could be. You could have pets that you care about and feel very strongly about. I mean, you could have family members.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

That you feel that. I don't think it has to be just a mother and a child, but it was. I could barely read it. I kind of had to skim it, to be honest with you, because the way that she wrote it was. I don't mean graphic in, like, a.

[Anna]

The grief was so palpable.

[Kim]

The grief and the screaming. I was like, I. This is too real.

[Anna]

I know. And the mother that stuck out to Emily the most and the one. The visual that she can't let go of is the mother who stood paralyzed and had no voice. Like, she just stood. And as a reader, I was like, how many times has she had to go through this? Is she so numb to the grief and the pain because she's forced to do this and endure this every four to five years? And also, how has Emily not thought about this the entire book? I was like, okay, so your kids are taken at 4. Is nobody concerned about what that would do to you psychologically?

[Kim]

Right. To both the mother and the child? 4 is way too young. I mean, there's no good age to be ripped apart from your child. Let me just be clear on that. Sure.

[Anna]

But, like, the end of the book is when Emeline finally goes. And I've started to wonder how hard that might be. I was like, just now?

[Kim]

Just now.

[Anna]

Oh, my girl.

[Kim]

When we read the premise for the book, I was like, oh, hold on, hold on. I don't like what this means for the mothers and the children.

[Anna]

I don't love this.

[Kim]

It was horrible. But, yes, Ariel did a really great job.

[Anna]

She did. All right. So on that happy note.

[Kim]

Yeah. Let's pivot to something happier.

[Anna]

We're gonna pivot. And chat about. Oh, gosh, guys, our two very sexy leading men in this. Hal and Colin.

[Kim]

Yeah, we are.

[Anna]

All right, so we're gonna chat about each of these characters and their personalities and kind of move through some of our favorite moments. And obviously, we have a love triangle that Ariel has been setting up, which I can't wait to talk about. But, listeners, if you watched our chapter chats on Patreon, then you have already heard this. But apparently there was a TikTok going around that Ariel dreamcast Helen, Colin and Hal, she always thought of Heath Ledger, and Colin was Henry Cavill. Guys, guys, I just need everyone to know that Henry Cavill is my only hall pass.

[Kim]

Like, agree.

[Anna]

Yes, I am. I have an unhealthy obsession with this man. There are so many of you. I love you all to death. There are some of you that send me, like, thirst trap Henry Cavill things in our DMs. And they're like, this is for Anna. And I'm like, yeah, it is just for me.

[Kim]

And you're like, yes.

[Anna]

Yes, it is.

[Kim]

Yeah. I literally all text Anna and be like, someone sent you a Henry Cavill diem. She's like, got it. Thank you.

[Anna]

Got it. Thank you so much.

[Kim]

No, Henry Cavill is your Kryptonite. And I knew the second Christina said Henry Cavill, I was like, well, fuck, here we go, Anna.

[Anna]

That's it.

[Kim]

Anna cannot remain impartial anymore. She is just. She's going to be full team calling. She was.

[Anna]

And she was unapologetically so.

[Kim]

Truly. We were texting and I would say something about Colin. You're like, well, hold on now. Let's see it through this lens.

[Anna]

She's just, I can fix him.

[Kim]

Yeah, I can fix him.

[Anna]

Him.

[Kim]

No, really, I can't. Oh, really? It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. Which, like, don't get me wrong, I love Henry Cavill, but she said Heath Ledger specifically in, like, 10 things I hate about you guys. I mean, that's so nostalgic. I think, for us, truly, Heath Ledger was, like, a heartthrob back when we were teens and early adults.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And so then I kind of became team Hal and Anna kind of became team Colin. So it was really funny reading the book. And, like, we would both be saying things and we're like, well, but like, wait, what? That's. I mean, I mean, okay, but hold on. But, like, let's look at it through this lens when really it's like that we're just picturing Heath Leder. Henry I just.

[Anna]

I just need everyone to understand that we are going into this. Kim has Hal, and I have Colin to discuss. Because I was like, it's more fun if we're both, like, unapologetically like. Yeah, I mean, listen, we're here. We're going to discuss the faults and all of those things. Obviously we wouldn't be doing our job.

[Kim]

Totally.

[Anna]

But it is really fun that, like, we had not, like one heartthrob, but, like two of our heartthrobs that we just both love. Heath Ledger and Henry Cavill.

[Kim]

Yes. Well done, Ariel.

[Anna]

Well done, Ariel.

[Kim]

The perfect dream casting.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

Also, if you're curious, she said that she pictures Gracie Abrams for Emily.

[Anna]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Kim]

So if you just want to put those pictures in your mind, a visual. But let's talk about Hal.

[Anna]

Let's do it.

[Kim]

Because Hal is that very classic underdog kind of guy, but he has layers. He's an onion.

[Anna]

He's an onion.

[Kim]

He is an onion. Now, genetically, Hal is actually considered elite. Elite. But both of his parents were major defects. So that's already very interesting to me. And I need to know if there's maybe other cases of this and how that happens.

[Anna]

Oh, sure.

[Kim]

Like, how does that happen that two majors produce an elite?

[Anna]

I'm gonna tell you what I think.

[Kim]

Okay.

[Anna]

I think it's because they want to control the children. And so if you control the children, I think Tabitha says at the end of the book, if you control the youth, you control everyone. So if they can take the. The children from majors and deem them as elite, they control those parents because a parent will do anything to protect their child.

[Kim]

Anna, that's so true.

[Anna]

I think it's as simple as control.

[Kim]

Gross.

[Anna]

I don't think it has anything to do with your genetics.

[Kim]

I don't either. But speaking of the elite. The elite are responsible for his parents death. And when it was discovered that Hal himself was physically and genetically, quote, without flaws, he was taken and brought into the Academy and he was actually raised and educated alongside people who were like Colin and Nora and Gregory. So he knew them from his time at the Academy. Yeah. And so while he exists within the elite system, his origin story is rooted in horrible loss and injustice. And it immediately kind of creates that internal tension within his character.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Because he has suffered so much loss in losing his parents and maybe siblings. We don't know.

[Anna]

Yeah. And if you think about it, it creates the framework for why he is the way he is. Because he wasn't taken at full no he was taken after. He had a lot of memories. He was older when he entered the Elite Academy. Yeah.

[Kim]

And he was. He lived with his parent, both of his parents, and he loved them. And they were in love with each

[Anna]

other, and they loved him.

[Kim]

He experienced him.

[Anna]

True love.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And these other children, it's all mating bonds, and that's why it's so dangerous to the illum.

[Kim]

Exactly.

[Anna]

So it makes sense. Like, I understand a lot of his rationale, which makes him interesting.

[Kim]

Yes, absolutely. And he bonds with Emeline over art, and they look at artwork together, and he can read French. And that was, I think, the first hip hop for all of us. I was like, why can he. Why can he read French?

[Anna]

Why can you read French? Why? Do you know what cubism is?

[Kim]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Cubism. And immediately we were all like, hold on, hold on.

[Anna]

Why?

[Kim]

Do you know Cuban?

[Anna]

No, but you. Nobody used that word.

[Kim]

No one just casually uses the word Cubism. And so it's obvious he received a full Elite Academy education.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And, God, you guys, it's so hard to go through these moments knowing what we know. I know it is. When he first said this, we all. We swooned.

[Anna]

We did. We did. I still love it.

[Kim]

So one of the early moments that really stands out is when he discovers that Emmaline's heterochromia had been hidden with a contact lens.

[Anna]

Right.

[Kim]

And she's kind of recapping her first meeting with Colin, and he basically says, like, oh, well, did you have your contact lens in? Did you have that thing in? And she says, yes. And he thought I was beautiful. And then Hal says, then he was wrong. You were covering what makes you beautiful.

[Anna]

I love it.

[Kim]

And we were like, oh, my gosh. See, he really sees her. He sees the real her. Like, you know, oh, that's so great.

[Anna]

And then.

[Kim]

But knowing what we know later, was this even genuine or was this part of something more calculated? You know, because it's so early in the book. It's so early, you guys. And we know there was a note that was like, make her feel beautiful.

[Anna]

About her.

[Kim]

Insecure about her eyes. She's insecure about her eyes.

[Anna]

And I hate that. I hate it. I hate it. But it makes a good book.

[Kim]

It does.

[Anna]

It makes a good reread.

[Kim]

Absolutely. Now, before we fully unpack the betrayal from Hal, and we will be doing that in next week's episode, I promise, we do want to just take a quick moment to, like, appreciate some of the more softer, intimate moments between Hal and Emeline, because Regardless of what happens later, I do feel like their connection was so genuine and so vulnerable in a lot of ways that Emeline and Colin's relationship or, you know.

[Anna]

Yeah, it's colder, so.

[Kim]

Oh, God. Oh, guys, the rain scene.

[Anna]

I know.

[Kim]

You know, we are sluts for a rain scene.

[Anna]

Slut for a rain scene.

[Kim]

She's leaving that terrible first dinner with her biological parents. She's sprinting through the street and she, like, runs. She runs five miles barefoot, but in the rain at night, which could never be me.

[Anna]

Could never.

[Kim]

She gets to her outside her apartment complex, basically, and she collapses. And he grabs her and holds her. And you realize he's been following her the entire time. It's. Ugh. It's so vulnerable. It's so emotional. And all you hear is him saying, I've got you, moonlight.

[Anna]

Oh, God, it's so cinematic. And I was so suspicious in our chapter chats of him at this point because I was like, how did he know to be there? I was confused as to how he knew to. To be there.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

But regardless, I loved this moment because it's so cinematic.

[Kim]

Oh, it's so cinematic. It was so beautiful. I mean, it was a true movie moment. Like, we just absolutely loved it. And then they get into her living quarters and he's helping her undress.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And remember she got sent a blue dress to wear to this family dinner? Well, family's a. That's a. A dinner with her biological family. And he says, this might be an insult, but the color looked beautiful on you.

[Anna]

Again, now that we know.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

You sent the dress.

[Kim]

Yes. It does kind of taint it a little bit because.

[Anna]

It does. It does.

[Kim]

He sent it. And I wish in that moment that he would have told her or something. I don't know.

[Anna]

He later on is like, I don't. She gives him food because she's like, realizes he missed a meal because he stays the night with her. And so she gives him her morning rations. She goes, you deserve this. And he says, no, I really don't. I do think he has genuine care, possibly love for her.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

I worry that his love for the rebellion cause is what's going to be his downfall.

[Kim]

I can definitely see that.

[Anna]

That's what makes me nervous because we

[Kim]

get this quote, they're snuggling in bed together. I think she asked him to stay. Or he climbs in bed with her. He's going to stay with her. And right before she falls asleep. Sleep. She says, I heard how mutter through the haze. Or maybe it was my dream. I do anything for love. And Anna. And I think that this is either love for your parents or love for maybe a sibling, but probably his parents that were killed by the elites.

[Anna]

Can you imagine if he has a sibling, though? That would actually make so much sense. It's like if you're an older sibling, it would make sense, especially if you're trying to protect a younger sibling, you know?

[Kim]

Yeah, that's very true. I do wonder. I feel like we maybe would have met that sibling when she went down underground with them and she was going through the room and everything. But maybe not.

[Anna]

Or were they taken when she. When he was taken.

[Kim]

Oh, I see. Yes, definitely.

[Anna]

But regardless, it could just be his

[Kim]

parents and him saying that, I think was definitely Ariel foreshadowing the I would

[Anna]

do anything for love.

[Kim]

I don't think he means Emmaline in this scene. Like, he barely knows who does either.

[Anna]

I think we, the readers, if you are new to the genre and have never read one of these books before, are probably like, oh, my God, he loves her. Yeah, I don't think that's what this is here.

[Kim]

No, know. I really don't. But. Okay, so let's kind of shift into the second half of this story. We have the Elite Ball. This is a huge, high stakes event where Emmaline is essentially being presented publicly as Colin's mate.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

But by this point, her eyes have been open to the darker realities of the Elim. The way defects are treated, the injustices within the system, and even the way Nora herself has been controlled and harmed.

[Anna]

Right.

[Kim]

And at one point during the ball, Emmaline slips away and she ends up alone in a back room. And Hal appears out of nowhere and he's disguised as part of the wait staff.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And they have this very charged, forbidden moment, and they run down the hallway together and they hide in this closet. And this tension has been building between them so good, it finally comes to a head and it's like, so wrong.

[Anna]

So wrong. But it feels so right.

[Kim]

Oh, so right. He says, you look beautiful tonight, Moonlight. And she says, the starlings did a good job. And he says, you look beautiful in your office the first day in gray and no lens. You are beautiful. Not the gown. Hal ran his hand. Hand up the side of my dress, leaving sparks in its wake. Then ran a finger along my jaw. Or the makeup. He traced the shell of my ear, grazing the diamond earrings. Then caressed the column of my throat where my pulse fluttered widely. Or the jewels. His hand gripped my waist. Just you, Moonlight. No. And I'm not going to Read this quote that you put in here for me because it's too early in the day.

[Anna]

It was spicy.

[Kim]

It was spicy. Things get very hot and heavy, very steamy.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

We are such suckers for, like, a forbidden. Like, we shouldn't be doing this.

[Anna]

Like, he's like, you have to be quiet. And I was like, tell me to be quiet.

[Kim]

He's like, you wouldn't want me to have to stop, would you? And I'm like, no, I love it.

[Anna]

Oh, but see, I just. I don't want to believe that these were all fake. My heart doesn't want to believe it.

[Kim]

I don't think him falling for her or seducing her was part of the plan. I really don't understand that. Yeah. I don't think seducing her was, like, on the agenda. I think that happened out of his control.

[Anna]

I don't think he needed to go up there and seduce her. But it.

[Kim]

No, but I want to bring this up, and this is an interesting discussion that, like, I think Anna and I view a little bit differently.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And I want to have this conversation. So Gregory finds Emmaline afterwards, and Gregory says, because we cannot help who we care for. Oh, Gregory.

[Anna]

Love him.

[Kim]

I did not know I had a little sister for too long. This is what a brother should do. And he puts an arm around Emmaline's waist, and he says that and pummel whoever the didn't think about your damn safety.

[Anna]

Interesting.

[Kim]

So he's saying that Hal is putting Emeline at risk because her hair is messed up, her dress is messed up.

[Anna]

And he, like, sent her out.

[Kim]

Yeah, Hal had kind of sent her out, like, go back. But he didn't try to, like, fix her up or anything. And she doesn't know. I mean, she's totally new to all of this. And Hal's not, though. And so Gregory is saying, whoever did this put you at harm, and they were not thinking about your safety.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Which is a really interesting perspective. And at the time, I just was kind of like. Like, meh. You know? I mean, I was already like, it's fine.

[Anna]

It's Heath Ledger.

[Kim]

Exactly. It's Heath Ledger. Don't talk shit about Heath Ledger.

[Anna]

He can do whatever he wants.

[Kim]

But I feel like you and friend of the podcast Ellen had felt differently about it.

[Anna]

Well, so when I first read it, that whole scene, I was like, here for it. I was into it. It was only when Gregory said that line about and I'll palm or whoever the fuck didn't care about your damn safety. I actually didn't clock it. I still thought that was, like, big brother protection. Like, oh, I'm a big brother. You shouldn't be kissing my sister. I thought it was as simple as that. And then I was talking to Elle, and she was actually reminding me of a scene after Emmaline finds the moonlight folder. And Emmaline is like, you sent me out there. Like, if you're trying to protect me, like, why didn't you think about that? Which I'm like, okay, but that's not all on him. But regardless.

[Kim]

Sure.

[Anna]

But you are new to this rebel. Whatever.

[Kim]

Exactly.

[Anna]

But Ellen said and. Sorry, guys. This is a little spoiler for Acotar book one. I would say if you are at least 30% into Acomath, you can listen to this next part. Or if you've been on on book talk long enough at any point, like, this will not be a surprise to you.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

So it's not, like, gonna spoil a huge, like, plot point. But anyways, it reminded Ellen of Under the Mountain, when Tamlin had one second to, like, see Feyre and makes out with her rather than, like, trying to save her. And I didn't think about that. Ellen brought that up, and I was like, that's interesting. I do not think Hal is a paralyzed parallel for Tamlin at all. I don't think that.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

I did think that was interesting, though.

[Kim]

That is a very interesting perspective, I guess. Like, I don't know what he would be saving her from. Like, she couldn't go anywhere. Like, she couldn't just. Yeah.

[Anna]

Or just, like, fix her and, like.

[Kim]

Yeah, he definitely should have fixed her. In my mind, he was just overtaken by the passion. He was so turned on that he wasn't thinking straight. Okay. He was just wrapped up.

[Anna]

I love it.

[Kim]

I will just say Emmaline, for being this horrible, disfigured woman is captivating these two men like nothing they have have ever experienced before in their lives. These men don't know what to do with themselves. They don't know what to do. They're like, I don't even know who I am. Hal's like, I'm off mission. Colin's like, I wasn't supposed to care about you. Like, you've gotten me crazy.

[Anna]

You make me crazy.

[Kim]

Oh, okay. But speaking of making Anna crazy, let's talk about Colin.

[Anna]

Let's.

[Kim]

Please, let's do it.

[Anna]

Oh, twist my arm.

[Kim]

All right.

[Anna]

Golly. Colin, our second sexiest leading man, the youngest member of the elum. He is, our impression, emotionally unavailable brunette leading man. And he's such an Enigma.

[Kim]

And I love it.

[Anna]

I was joking with Kim that if Colin were a drink, he would be like a dark and stormy because he's like got this kind of intensity to him, but you don't see that storm very often. So he's probably more of like a whiskey meat, which is what he drinks throughout the book. But he really excels at reining in his emotions. Except apparently where Emmaline is concerned. You know, this woman just brings in out all the sassiness in these boys she does. Makes them look like fools. But anyways, Colin stays a mystery for most of this book and I feel that that was intentional on Ariel's part. I don't think we're supposed to feel warm and fuzzy towards him or fall for him immediately the way that we are supposed to feel that way towards Hal for all the reasons that, you know, you discussed, Kim. I think Hal is easier to fall in love with. He's easier to trust. And Colin, on the other hand, is much colder. He's very guarded. And that makes sense. He's a member of the illum. That's part of the mask he wears. But by definition he's someone who has learned to wear that mask and to keep people at a distance. Right?

[Kim]

Yeah, definitely.

[Anna]

So specifically speaking, Colin's role within the illum is an enforcer.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Which I immediately was like, oh, as a mafia girly, I love this.

[Kim]

And I was like, oh, Henry Cavill. And he's the enforcer sold for sign me up. And he has dark hair.

[Anna]

I mean, I was like, I mean, come on.

[Kim]

Like he's made for me.

[Anna]

Yeah. And we have Bridgerton balls.

[Kim]

Like, I remember at one point you were like, you're like personally offended by something, Col. You're like, colin, I thought we were trusting each other and then you betrayed me. Like, what the hell? He was like, personally offended. Personally offended. You're like, I thought we had a moment and I trusted you.

[Anna]

I think it's when he calls her pet.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

I was like, I really don't like this. We're gonna have world words.

[Kim]

We're gonna have words later behind closed doors.

[Anna]

I was like, but nobody else is allowed to be mad.

[Kim]

Only I can be mad at him. But no one else is allowed to be mad at him.

[Anna]

Oh, it's so unhinged. It's absolutely unhinged. So he's the enforcer, which means that he is carrying out all of the illum's version of justice. Right. Which is why he is so feared. So he's not only the youngest member but he's also the person that carries out all the police work. He was an Elite Force member, as we'll get to. And you see that dynamic specifically in the scene where we meet Emmeline's birth parents for the first time. And Vincent, God fucking hate him, is so awful to her. And Colin steps in and he makes it very clear that she is his mate and therefore Emmeline is under his protection.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And this entire moment is so good. There's this kiss. And I do think you can read it in two ways. And it was really fun for us to text about this. But Colin says to Emmeline, do you remember Rule 10? And throughout the book we get all these rules that they're taught at the Academy. And Rule 10 is that technically a minor mate is not supposed to say no to an elite mate. And so he says, do you remember Rule 10? And she says, I do. And then he looks at her and he says, forgive me. And he kisses her. And it's in front of everyone. And I think on one hand it's Colin making a calculated decision vision that, like, if I do this in public, then she's untouchable because I've staked my claim, they won't hurt her. Her father will see this. So I do think it's his way of protecting her because he can't do it in traditional sense of, like, showing love and compassion because he's an illum.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

But in the moment, I love like a fuck it.

[Kim]

Oh, I love it.

[Anna]

And that's how I read it initially. He's like, forgive me. And it felt like a fuck it. And she seems. And she's into it. Let's get that straight. Oh, yeah, she is into into it for sure. He gets more into it than I think he intended.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

But also I 100% can see it from other readers standpoints where it feels a little icky because does Emmaline think she can't say no to him?

[Kim]

Yeah, I could definitely see that where she feels like she can't say no, which feels like it's a little uncomfortable. Like, was there really consent if she's not allowed to say no?

[Anna]

And it's interesting because later on in the book, they're about to kiss, I think, or they're very close together. And he says, like something like, do you want this? Something. Something like, do you want this? Or can you say yes? And she says, I can't. And he says, you can't or you won't? There's a difference. Like, you can't Say no to me. Because you think you have to say yes or you won't say yes because you don't want to. And those are two different things.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And he doesn't kiss her.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

And he doesn't follow through. And I also think it hurts him because he's like, oh, yeah, you don't. Not only do not want to, but you. I don't want you to feel like you have to do it because you have to do it.

[Kim]

Yes, definitely.

[Anna]

Which is interesting. And I do love that we get both scenes of those.

[Kim]

Me too.

[Anna]

But what did you think initially meeting him, Kim?

[Kim]

I mean, I loved Colin. I thought their first meeting was so sweet and cute with the chocolate cake. I thought he was charming. I love their little love the date up in the sky because I'm very scared of heights and I was like, I absolutely could never do this, but I thought it was really sweet and I thought they were having a really great time together. And I do do love Colin. I just struggled with his character because I felt like he was very cold and distant and I didn't feel that connection between him and Emeline like I did with Hal and Emeline.

[Anna]

I agree.

[Kim]

I did feel like they had incredible, like sexual tension chemistry with each other. She feels like this physical pull to him when she's in his presence.

[Anna]

She does, yeah.

[Kim]

And I enjoyed that a lot. I just think I did struggle when he could be a little cruel to her sometimes I just, I really struggle with that. I feel like I. It's hard for me. I don't enjoy. Enjoy cruel men. I think he has got a lot going on. That's why I'm like, I want his POV because I think there's so much going on internally that he's not showing. He's not ever been allowed to show it. Maybe.

[Anna]

That brings us to this quote from Nora.

[Kim]

Oh, yes.

[Anna]

So I really loved this moment. And I want to talk about what you just said some more after we read this quote.

[Kim]

Okay.

[Anna]

Nora and Emeline are alone and they're in Colin's quarters. Colin isn't there. And it's after the dinner party where the minor defect is of kind killed. And Emmeline was very shaken by that and she's very upset by it. And she says to Nora, is there ever a reason to murder or use someone? And Nora takes a really deep breath and her response doesn't answer the question right away. What she says is, offspring are the funniest thing. Nora rested a hand on her stomach and then she Met my gaze, but I face it for them, meaning her children. There is no evil I wouldn't face face to save them. And no evil I wouldn't become to spare them.

[Kim]

That is probably one of my favorite lines in the entire book. Like, nothing encapsulates motherhood and parenthood like that.

[Anna]

There's nothing I wouldn't do.

[Kim]

I have truly never read a sentence that I identified with more as a mother.

[Anna]

Like, I will do anything to protect my children.

[Kim]

Absolutely.

[Anna]

Then Emmaline says, why are you telling me this? Like, that's not what I asked.

[Kim]

Essentially. Right. Doesn't answer my question.

[Anna]

Question. And Nora says, what you want to know is not so simple. Should someone ever do those things? No, but no one is all good or all bad. Each person has their breaking point, their line in the sand. Maybe find out, Collins, before you write him off completely. What does that mean?

[Kim]

What does that mean? What is his breaking point?

[Anna]

I don't know. I have so many thoughts on this. Again, this goes back to, like, your point of. He is so cold. He's very hard to, like. I mean, obviously not for me. Not for me.

[Kim]

Not for me. But I could see how people.

[Anna]

No, but I understand. Like, he is cold. We don't get that warm, fuzzy feeling that we get with Hal. Yeah. And I do think that's intentional. Oh, for sure. I think we're supposed to then move into book two. We're gonna have forced proximity and we're gonna have cohabitation. And now Emmeline's an elite member and she's gonna live with Colin. So I think we're setting us up to, like, have more. More of these vulnerable moments with Colin. For sure. But what is his breaking point?

[Kim]

Is it Emily?

[Anna]

Is. Exactly. Is it Emily? Or is. Does. Colin's never made it before.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

Do you think he could possibly have, like, a love child somewhere? Oh, I keep going back to, like. Like she says, offspring. Or is that too on the nose from the conversation.

[Kim]

But it's interesting that she's asking about Colin. And Nora responds, talking about her choice. Children.

[Anna]

Yes. Like, is that a hint?

[Kim]

Right, Exactly. Like, she's like, offspring are the funniest thing. Like, it's like. Well, we weren't talking about offspring.

[Anna]

Why are we talking about offspring?

[Kim]

I. That's very interesting.

[Anna]

I don't know.

[Kim]

He also says he doesn't intend to take another mate after Emmaline.

[Anna]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kim]

Which. That's not normal. Like you said, they purposely rotate partners over and over again, especially in Elam. Like, we want their genetics all over the Place.

[Anna]

We've talked about this. But about his parents. Parents. Like, where are his parents?

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

In a world where you can be 70 years old and you look like you're 50. Right. And there's no doctors, they said, because nobody gets sick.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

So where are they? They talk about his parents in the past tense. And Emmaline says that Colin has a hard time going into, like, certain rooms because of memories and. Or she. She alludes to that concept.

[Kim]

Nora does.

[Anna]

Nora does, yeah. About, like, certain rooms in the house and specifically, I think the living room. But then he has this painting, which I can't wait to get to our art history lesson. But, like, he has this painting that depicts sorrow and, like, a woman. The woman's walking away, like, grief stricken. So where are his parents? Did they die? Did they die to protect their children? And is he trying to avenge them?

[Kim]

Ooh, that would be interesting. Which, like. Oh, my God, that would mirror Hal.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

They're both, like, trying to avenge their parents, which would be fantastic. And so interesting how they do it differently. Exactly. Exactly. On opposite sides of the cause. Yes.

[Anna]

I love this.

[Kim]

Oh, that's fascinating, Anna. Oh, I love that. Okay, so let's chat about the love triangle.

[Anna]

Oh, boy.

[Kim]

Obviously, this is a huge part of the book and I will say, I don't know how you feel. I felt like it was incredibly well done.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Almost too well done. Because I'm leaving the book being like, I don't know what team I'm on.

[Anna]

I left the book and had to go read a bunch of. Why choose books? Because I was like, I don't want to choose right now. I was like, I just.

[Kim]

I'm mad that you made me choose,

[Anna]

so I'm not going to. To.

[Kim]

So I'm not the one who. Can't make me.

[Anna]

Can't make me.

[Kim]

I said that. I have not seen a love triangle this good since Infernal Devices, which is before this, I would say, was the only love triangle we ever enjoyed.

[Anna]

I don't love them.

[Kim]

Usually it's very hard to do them. Well, people say love triangle, but then it's like, very obvious that it's not really a love triangle and that there's definitely, like, one other per, like, who's in the lead. I know, but I think when you compare Colin and Hal, I think the time that Emmaline spends with Hal feels much more free of constraints. There's a much more natural ease between the two of them.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And I think that comes with the fact that they share a common hardship and a mutual Desire to break free from the Elim's control. Absolutely. There's kind of that understanding between them of being, like, the underdog, the downtrodden, which Colin obviously doesn't understand. But of course, we have to go back to. Like, is that connection between them a little bit tainted? Is it even real? Because we know that Emmaline was originally a job to him in some way. We don't know the extent of that. And so even moments that felt romantic between them looking back, like when Hal explains her nickname, moonlight, he says, the moon rules our time, does it not? And Emmeline says it does. And how raked a hand through his hair. Since meeting you, you seem to rule mine. Which, when we read that, we were like, oh, my freaking God, are you kidding me? I love this so much. It's so beautiful. But at the same time, we know that moonlight is the name on the folder that he has on Image.

[Anna]

I need to know if he gave her the nickname and then wrote moonlight or if moonlight was on the folder and he used it. Because that makes a big difference to me.

[Kim]

Absolutely, it does. Like, was her number on there? Like, you know how they have, like, their identifying number? Like, was it just her number at first, and then he replaced it with Moonlight. And if he didn't start calling her moonlight, like, if that was already the name on the folder, why, why?

[Anna]

Why was just, like, a code word.

[Kim]

But, like, what about her?

[Anna]

But then. And then you just made it work for yourself. Like, I don't know. Then I'm like, that's icky, dude.

[Kim]

I feel like he gave her that name.

[Anna]

I hope so. I don't want him to be bad.

[Kim]

No, no, no.

[Anna]

In the way that, like, if he makes bad choices and they're not together, fine. I just don't want him to turn out to be, like, evil. Me too. Does that make sense?

[Kim]

Me too. Yeah. And then she says, I stared at how like, he was my own personal sunset. Let it captivate me, distract me, and make me appreciate him all the more. Because it was fleeting. I found myself unable to look away. But like, the sunset, it must end. And I think that comparison is very intentional. I think even in the moments that she's with Hal, there's this awareness that that connection might not last because, like, how can they be together? Like, there's no way for them to really be together. Now you shift over to Colin, and that dynamic is incredibly different. I think their interactions feel a lot more structured, almost orchestrated in a way. Like their first meeting, their public outings, the way their relationship is presented to society. It all feels very pre outlined and purposeful. And while those moments I do think can come across as colder, I think Colin's intentions and expectations are more clear throughout the book.

[Anna]

Yeah, I agree.

[Kim]

And there's less ambiguity in what he represents in Emmaline's life. Like Hal, you don't know what he represents because there's real no way for them to really be together. Whereas Colin.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Is supposed to be with Emily. Like they are mates.

[Anna]

It's very, very different. Hal gives you, like we said, the warm and fuzzy. They have these like really unscripted moments in the archives which.

[Kim]

Well, right.

[Anna]

Who knows if they're scripted but like it felt unscripted in the moment and it feels really beautiful which is why you fall for him. And Colin's moments are all so orchestrated and like he sends chocolates and flowers. He does all the things that we think about as courting which like woos you. But he doesn't have that emotional conversational connection that Hal does.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

So it is interesting.

[Kim]

It's really compelling. And I think Ariel is making a strong case for both sides. And I will say, like I would read a Hal interaction and be like, oh my God, I'm so into in on Hal. And then she would go have dinner with Colin. I'd be like, oh my God, I'm so in on Colin. Like I was flip flopping throughout the entire book.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And it wasn't until the end, which we'll get to next week, that I didn't love some of the things that Colin did and just some of the behaviors that he exhibited towards the end. But even then I still am going into book two being like, I want to know more. Like I want more from Colin and Hal.

[Anna]

No, I agree, I agree. Because I feel like I was going to say neither of them did things that were unforgivable. I mean it depends on what your level of tolerance and forgiveness is. I guess.

[Kim]

I guess true.

[Anna]

What Hal does is breaks her spirit in a way that's different from Colin, but that's because she has an emotional connection to Hal that she doesn't have to Colin.

[Kim]

True.

[Anna]

So it's interesting to like see like Colin is verbiage. Like he gets angry at her and he's curt and they are combative. The two of them together are combative.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

It's like Cassian and Nesta.

[Kim]

Oh yes.

[Anna]

They get off on just being at each other. Other's throats.

[Kim]

Read this quote that you have where Colin is talking to Emily.

[Anna]

Yes. So he says to her, you are unlike everything I have ever known. His voice was a deep whisper. You're maddening, consuming, unwilling to follow any of their rules. I have a role to play, and yet I spend my time thinking about you.

[Kim]

That's so interesting.

[Anna]

I just. There are these moments of vulnerability where I feel like his mask comes off and he doesn't allow anyone else to see that side of him. Nora's always shocked when she sees the way that he speaks to Emmaline. And I think similar to Hal. Hal tells Emeline in the archives, like, you aren't what I expected. You weren't planned. And then literally, it's almost verbatim what Colin says to her, like, I didn't expect this. I have a role to play, and yet I spend my time thinking about you.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

This heterochromia girl has got these boys

[Kim]

all twisted, is sweeping both of them off their feet, and they do not know which way is up or down.

[Anna]

I love it. I love this love triangle.

[Kim]

Me too.

[Anna]

I think, you know, the enemies to lovers is kind of traditionally laid out between Colin and Emeline. I'm curious to see if that flip flops in the next book because of the way Hal's betrayal sets her off. I still think that she doesn't view Hal as an enemy, though. I think she's just hurt by Hal. I think Colin, to her, is still the enemy unless he can prove otherwise. I don't think he's actually her enemy, but that's because I've read a million of these books.

[Kim]

Right. But I think she is very. She trusted Hal a lot more than she trusted Colin. And I think that's why the betrayal from Hal hurts so bad, because she did form that connection with him that she didn't have with Colin.

[Anna]

I'm excited to get to talk about that some more in a little bit. Yeah.

[Kim]

Yes. Okay, so let's get into some horrible dinner parties. We like to call these the dinner parties from hell. Yep, Part one and part two. Okay, so part one is the first dinner with Emily. Biological parents home. They invite Colin and Emeline after they become mates, and Emmaline does not want to go because this is her first real reaction with the people who abandon her. And the stakes feel incredibly high. And then during her preparation process with the starlings, she's given a blue gown to wear, which in this world we know that that is the color associated with major defects. So already we are off to a terrible start for this dinner. Okay. Because her family's horrible and it's not going to be good. And to make matters worse, Colin tied up at work and sends an apology note saying that he cannot attend.

[Anna]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kim]

And when I read this, I was like, are you kidding me, Colin? This was your idea. You said that we should have dinner with her family and then you bail. I know, I know. Terrible. But now, knowing what we know later, that the blue dress was orchestrated by Hal and the rebels, that got me thinking. Was Colin being, quote, tied up also part of the plan? Like, did they pull him away intentionally to leave Emmaline vulnerable in this moment?

[Anna]

I 100% think so, because it wouldn't have the same.

[Kim]

Same effect if Colin was there.

[Anna]

Colin is essentially toucher and die vibes.

[Kim]

Totally.

[Anna]

He will not stand. And Vincent, I think, is scared of him.

[Kim]

Oh, as he should be.

[Anna]

He should be. Because Colin is so sexy.

[Kim]

Okay. So regardless, Emmaline's biological father, Vincent, takes Colin's absence incredibly personally because of course he does. Everything's about him. And in true narcissistic fashion, he interprets it as the Elam punishing him through Emmaline.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Because of course, everything revolves around Vincent.

[Anna]

Sure. Of course it does.

[Kim]

And when we finally arrive at dinner, we get introduced to her entire biological family, and let's just say they don't make a great impression on Emily and vice versa.

[Anna]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kim]

I did think it was interesting, and we talked about this a little bit in chapter chats that they don't use like mother, father, brother. It's biological mother, biological father, biological brother.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Which I thought was really interesting. And as someone who was adopted, I was adopted and my brother was adopted. Adopted separately, seven years apart and through private adoption. So I don't know my birth parents. My brother doesn't know his birth parents, and we were adopted, like, from birth, basically. And so our parents are the people who raised us, and that's how we frame it in our minds. And I have never read a book where they use what I think of as, like, adoption terms, because adoption terms for me are like, biological parents. And then my. Or I call them like my birth parents. And then like, my parents are my mom and dad. My mom and dad. And so it was a really interesting experience. I don't dislike like it, but it's just. It was interesting. And I felt like that was a. Very. Obviously, it's used to isolate and be clinical and dismiss that bond between parent and child and siblings. Right. I think that was absolutely.

[Anna]

I think that's the purpose of it. Right. Yeah.

[Kim]

I thought that Ariel did a great job of doing that. It Made it feel very clinical.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

Very like these are your biological parents, but they're not your mom and dad.

[Anna]

It was effective.

[Kim]

It was very effective.

[Anna]

It was very effective. I think Gregory is the only one who. He just calls her his sister.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Which I. Okay. I love Gregory.

[Kim]

Oh, Gregory. We love Gregory. We don't love her other two brothers, Richard, who we call Dick.

[Anna]

Y. And he is. He is one.

[Kim]

Philip reminds me of Percy. Early Percy from Harry Potter. If you know, you know.

[Anna]

Yes.

[Kim]

Just this suck up, goody, goody two shoes. And we get the strong sense that they did not even know Emma existed prior to this. Gregory, we know for sure, did not know that Emeline existed. And Vincent and Helen are her biological parents.

[Anna]

Parents.

[Kim]

And I hate Vincent so much. I need you to understand that. I need this man to suffer a slow, painful death.

[Anna]

Please.

[Kim]

Slow, painful death. I need him skinned alive.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Kim]

This is what he says to her.

[Anna]

Oh, God. Say it. I hate it.

[Kim]

You were a disgrace to this family the moment you opened those hideous eyes. All of my hard work. Damned. Oh, please. You pumped for 30 seconds. Get the out of here.

[Anna]

Get out of here. Like she didn't even enjoy it.

[Kim]

Exactly. You ruined centuries of success. Both our lineages were perfect generations of elite. Until you take several seats. Take several.

[Anna]

You are such an. It's like you don't understand how genetics work. Because this is your fault, right?

[Kim]

Yeah. And then Emily says, easier to eliminate a mistake than admit you carry any responsibility for it. It's your genes that created this. Thank you, Emily.

[Anna]

Yes, Queen.

[Kim]

That's how genetics work, Vincent. It takes two halves of a DNA to make a child. So maybe let's not pretend that this is a one sided issue. You actually. Absolute piece of garbage.

[Anna]

Of garbage. Trash. I love. This is why I like her character, though, because I feel like this is early on in the book. This is one of the first moments where we have conflict and she doesn't back down. And she stands up for herself despite being totally isolated in that room and being alone. I really like that she has a backbone.

[Kim]

Me too. I was so proud of her. I can't fathom how hard that was. Now, Helen, Emmaline's biological mother, is a much more complex presence in. In this scene. And there are hints that she may not fully align with Vincent, but she clearly feels she cannot speak freely. She has clearly been just like. To me, she seems beaten down like an abused animal.

[Anna]

Yeah, she does. She seems completely broken.

[Kim]

Yeah. And we see that especially during the Elite ball. This is a very quiet but telling exchange between her and Emmaline. And Helen says, are you happy? With your mate, I mean. And my. She says, my chest burned viciously. Does it matter? No one cares for my happiness, Helen. The word mother caught on the immovable knot in my throat. It's not what I was made for. And Helen says, I care. And Emeline whips her head toward her. Helen met my gaze, her blue eyes heavy. Emmaline, I. Helen turned quickly, her words dying as clipped footsteps sounded. Her gaze became vacant. And then Vincent enters, and Helen just completely shuts down, which is classic.

[Anna]

Like, I think, abuse.

[Kim]

Oh, absolutely. He's controlling her. He's abusing her. There's fear. She fears Vincent for sure.

[Anna]

Her. Even Gregory is very protective of his mother. At some point, he turns to, you know, Emeline, which is. Emeline has every right to be upset with her parents and be mad at her, like, absolutely, yes. But she's saying things about her mom, and Gregory cuts her off and is like, you don't know what that woman has been through.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Which, as the reader, you may.

[Kim]

Oh. Oh, well, why don't you tell us more about that?

[Anna]

Why don't you tell us more about that?

[Kim]

It's so interesting, and it really just proves that your perspective on something isn't always the full picture, because Emeline's like, oh, yeah, it's so hard to be an elite. I feel so bad for you guys. Meanwhile, I'm down there in the archives every day by myself. And Gregory's like, yeah, but you don't know what she's been through.

[Anna]

It's a different kind of gilded cage. It's a cage. It's prettier, but it's still a cage, especially if you're a woman.

[Kim]

You know, her family dynamic is very interesting. We love Gregory, and we will get to him next week, but I'm very interested in her mother, her biological mom. I hate Vincent. I don't care what happens to him. I want him to die, which means he definitely won't die because. Because he's that type of cockroach character that keeps coming back over and over again. But I'm interested to find out more about Helen because I. I do have a problem with her, like, abandoning Emmaline. And I know. I know she didn't have a choice, but I just. As a mother, I just can't.

[Anna]

I feel like it's hard to discuss until we get, like, a flashback more or, like, Helen's story. But, yes, I agree, because Emily's memories are her mom outside the door, pacing Back and forth and stopping a male voice from entering. And that's what she remembers.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And I go, well, what hells were out there that her mother was trying to prevent from coming inside?

[Kim]

Oh, yeah.

[Anna]

And like, is that the only way she could protect her?

[Kim]

Yeah, that's true. You're right.

[Anna]

Which is like why I. I hope in book two, especially now that she's an elite, Emily's an elite, that we can like, maybe get some more conversation between her and Helen.

[Kim]

I hope so too. Especially now that she's up there, like you said, like she's up there in the clouds, closer to her biological family. I'm hoping that her and Helen can have some conversations.

[Anna]

Okay, so we're going to kind of wrap this up with the dinner party From Hell, Part 2.

[Kim]

Yep. There's another terrible dinner party, you guys.

[Anna]

So Colin is hosting a dinner party for a select group of elites and higher ranking members of the Illum Arcs supposed to attend and make an appearance. Nora brings Emmaline to Colin's study before the dinner. And there are a few things here that are really interesting about this encounter. Colin has a map of the tunnels and underground system just open for everyone to see. He doesn't hide it. And. And it showcases the tunnels and underground system that the major defects use. Right. And he even lets Emmaline in on the fact that the Illum are planning to attack the Majors in retaliation for the Reaper strike on the Supplement building.

[Kim]

That's interesting.

[Anna]

This is the quote, and let's dissect this. The Illum do not tolerate chaos. They are adamant about sending him a message, one that will give him pause. Talking about the Reaper. And Emmeline asks if that will work the plan. And he says, I do not know yet. What. What the carnage of his people will do to him. And then she says, what are you going to do exactly? And he says, my role. And then she says, well, what does that mean? What are you going to do to the majors? And Colin's response is, whatever is required of me. Everything I do is for the greater good. Everything you see tonight is for the greater good.

[Kim]

That feels pointed.

[Anna]

It feels pointed. It feels the fact that he's. Here's the map system. Here's where we're planning to attack.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And then this is the moment that we talked that you mentioned earlier when you were discussing Emeline. And she goes to warn the majors. This is that moment.

[Kim]

Yeah. And he lets her in on that

[Anna]

information and he says, everything. Just remember, like the. What are you gonna do? My role. He doesn't say what the Ilim expect. He doesn't say what I have to do for the Ilim. He just says my role.

[Kim]

My role. Which.

[Anna]

What is his role?

[Kim]

What is his role?

[Anna]

I. I just don't. I really think Colin is playing a different game.

[Kim]

I think so too.

[Anna]

I think that there is a lot more that's happening. I don't think he's just a puppet for the heirloom. I really believe that. I don't know if he's a member of the rebel cause secretly, I don't know if he's the Reaper. We're gonna talk about that more next week. But I feel like he is working from within to take down the illum. Whether it's his own plan or he's working with others. I'm very interested to see.

[Kim]

That's fascinating.

[Anna]

Yeah. So by the end of this scene, I think it's clear to the readers that Colin knows Emily doesn't trust him. You know, he had a couple other instances and honestly, I don't think we're supposed to trust him either as readers. I mean, he hasn't given us a reason to, aside from the fact that we've read so many of these books and like in our heads he's going to be. End up being trustworthy. Right. But in this moment he hasn't given us a reason to trust him. Right. And he, Colin, I think, usually expects trust blindly.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

Which is unrealistic expectation obviously to place on everyone else, especially Emmaline, because given their power imbalance.

[Kim]

Right, right. I don't think that's fair to ask of her.

[Anna]

No, you're absolutely correct. I don't. I don't think that's fair. And I think so. It's interesting because I think Colin comes to that realization in this moment and Emmaline, there's like a sense of heightened tension and she kind of makes a joke about, oh, are you gonna ask for my forgiveness this time? Kind of referencing back that kiss that they had.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And she turns to leave, she walks by him and Colin's response is so quiet she almost misses it. And he says, I'm not foolish enough to ask for something no longer obtainable.

[Kim]

See, I felt like that was a little manipulative of him.

[Anna]

Oh, interesting.

[Kim]

Because I'm like, why should she trust you? You've given her no reason to trust you and you're asking for it blindly.

[Anna]

Oh, yes, going back to.

[Kim]

Yes, going back to that. And so then I feel like he was kind of trying to make her feel bad. Like to me, that Just felt manipulative of like.

[Anna]

Yeah, good point.

[Kim]

No, it's not even on the table anymore.

[Anna]

Yeah. Petulant.

[Kim]

Petulant. Yeah. A little, like, toddler being like. No. I mean, no, I'm not even gonna ask for that because you wouldn't even give it to me anyways. And it's like, well, why should she? She doesn't even know you. You guys have barely spent not that much quality time together, but yet you're all. You're all like, no, no. You don't trust me anymore. Yeah, I don't.

[Anna]

You've given me no reason.

[Kim]

And that combined with what happens next.

[Anna]

I know. Okay, so we move into the dinner party and everything quickly goes to shit. They're all members of the elite, so no one actually, like, acts out because they're all prim and proper, but it's just deeply uncomfortable and it's so clearly controlled. And the illum, Tabitha, appears via hologram. She doesn't actually show up in person, and she brings in a member of the minor defect population. And it's the same guy who whistled at Emmeline, like, aggressively. She was in, like, an elite dress, but she has her heterochromia visible, and she was very uncomfortable. And she, like, sends Low away. And the guy was, like, whistling. Doing one of the rebel calls.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And Tabitha accuses him of being a traitor and working for the rebellion, which, I mean, I guess he is, but not a traitor in the sense that she means it.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

And she calls for his execution. His elimination is what they call it. And this is the quote. Colin stood the epitome of grace, that power and viciousness surrounding him. If there was. Was an internal battle, he didn't show it. Whatever is required of me, everything I do is for the greater good. She's remembering what he said.

[Kim]

Right.

[Anna]

Eliminate him. Colin's voice rang out. My pulse roared in my ears. I couldn't breathe. And then we find out later that all of the devices that they have in their wrists has, like, a kill switch. And so he dies. It's like blood coming out. It's like poison. His insides are being poisoned.

[Kim]

Yeah, it's really rough to read. And then he's, like, on the ground bleeding, and everybody just goes back to their dinner. And then Emmaline's like, I want to leave. Like, I don't want to be here.

[Anna]

It's so dystopian.

[Kim]

It's very dystopian. But that was a hard scene for me to like. I really did not. Like, I understand that that's what he had to do in war times.

[Anna]

And I know, but it's still, like, this is one of those moments where I was frustrated with him, and I'm like, oh, God, we've read so many of these books where you see us not so many of these books. We've read a few where you have a main character who does things that you. You question, and then you find out later because you get these, like, beautiful monologues, and they're like, this is what really was happening. But in this moment, you're so mad at him.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And she is traumatized.

[Kim]

Yes, she is. Yes.

[Anna]

She exits. And Colin is like, nora, please take her home. Like, get her home, whatever. And the aftermath of this is really interesting. And this is really interesting. He asks for her forgiveness and apologizes. Hal never says, I'm sorry and apologizes, which was really interesting. Interesting to me. So he says, forgive me, please. And Nora reacts, Reacts.

[Kim]

She's like, I'm sorry.

[Anna]

What are you saying? Like. Like, what now? Yeah.

[Kim]

You're an Elam and you're asking for a Minor defects forgiveness.

[Anna]

It's very interesting. I'm not excusing, like, what happened.

[Kim]

I hope this is like, I can fix it. I can fix it. Hold on, hold on, hold on. What is just. Everybody calm down.

[Anna]

Calm down. It's gonna be fine.

[Kim]

He did have someone killed. But. But.

[Anna]

But he had to do it.

[Kim]

He said he was sorry.

[Anna]

He said he was sorry.

[Kim]

I don't. What do you.

[Anna]

Like, his boss said he had to do it. He's the enforcer.

[Kim]

More times.

[Anna]

More times.

[Kim]

Who is he protecting again? I really feel strongly that we will get Colin's POV in book two. And I think it's gonna open up a lot of things for us that we were not privy to in book one. And I. There are these moments with him where I do feel like he has these genuine emotions and care toward Emmaline.

[Anna]

I know. It's so hard. Cause it's so few and far between.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

So it's really hard. It is hard. It's all these moments. You know, there's moments where he's standing at the window after the Reaper attacks and everyone's dying around him. And he just says, like, I've seen enough death today.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And she's like, I've never seen him like this. Like, he looks just. He's all. His hair's a mess. He's got ash all over his face. And she's like, I've never seen his mask down. She uses the word mask. Pin that for Theories. Okay, so we're gonna wrap up this episode. We. With this quote that Emeline has this, like, inner monologue.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

And it's when she is getting ready with the starlings for the elite Ball where she is going to be presented for the first time. And it's kind of a turning point for Emmalene. She's having a conversation with the starlings when she's getting ready, and she starts to question not just the illum, but also the Reaper's methods. Because she. There's been another attack and a lot of people were killed.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And she's had a. This is after her conversation with Hal when she goes down underground to warn everyone.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

And she's like, wait a second. Like, what do you mean the Reaper wants to get rid of everybody? There are good people up there, like the miners, myself. And, you know, she thinks about Nora and Gregory.

[Kim]

Gregory.

[Anna]

And she's like, they're not all bad. And Hal is very defensive of the Reaper's methods, and that's his experience. Right. As we've discussed his trauma from his childhood.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Anna]

But this is what Emmeline says in her inner monologue. But if we killed each other endlessly, how would the cycle of misunderstood murder stop? Which side was right? There were good people in the clouds as well as bad. Status alone didn't determine who should be saved. As if reading my thoughts, Rose shook her head at me. You thought there was a good guy and a bad guy, didn't you? Rose scoffed. How naive.

[Kim]

Wow, that is interesting. That is such a theme in this book, that there is no good guy or a bad guy. Hal does things. I mean, the rebellion does things that are terrible, but they think it's really for the right reason. And I think Colin is doing things that, yeah, are bad, but it's part of his greater plan, his game.

[Anna]

And like Nora says, we all become evil to save the people we love. You know, you have no idea what you would do when confronted with something like this.

[Kim]

Totally.

[Anna]

It's very interesting. And I'm really excited to see where book two goes.

[Kim]

Me too. I'm so excited. I can't wait for next week. We are going to get into, of course, the art history lesson with Anna and the crazy ending. And we're going to talk about our theories.

[Anna]

Yes. Oh, gosh, the epilogue, which was really fun. And my goodness, people have such different takes.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Anna]

I'm really excited. We're going to talk about. Nora and Gregory are so.

[Kim]

I love them. I know. I can't wait.

[Anna]

So anyways, with that listeners come back next week to hear all those thoughts and cheers and happy reading.

[Kim]

Yeah, we'll see you next time.

[Anna]

Bye Bye.

[Kim]

Well, friends, that wraps up another episode of Flights of Fantasy Podcast. Don't forget to join our book club community on Instagram and TikTok at flights of Fantasy Podcast where you can share your thoughts, theories, and favorite moments with us and fellow listeners. We'd love to hear from you. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps us spread the magic of Romantasy to even more book lovers. Until next time, keep dreaming, keep reading, and remember, every good story deserves to take flight.