S6 : Ep 12 - Conform by Ariel Sullivan Part 2

Summary

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Flights of Fantasy – S6 : Ep 12

Conform by Ariel Sullivan Part 2
April 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this high-energy, in-depth episode, hosts Anna, Kim, and Christina continue their exploration of Ariel Sullivan’s dystopian fantasy romance, Conform. As part two of their book discussion, the trio focus on significant plot and character developments, unravel the novel’s rich use of art history as thematic foreshadowing, highlight key relationships (especially Nora and Gregory’s tragic romance), and spiral into detailed theorycrafting about the rebels, the true identity of the Reaper, and what book two might hold. The hosts’ warm, intelligent, and frequently hilarious banter keeps the discussion accessible for new and returning listeners alike.

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[03:09] Art as Thematic Design – “Art History with Anna”

Context & Set-up

• Anna leads an art history segment, revealing that the artworks woven into Conform are not just set dressing but deeply symbolic, chosen to mirror or foreshadow the book’s events, characters, and emotional beats.
• The theme: In the book’s dystopia, art is suppressed to prevent independent thought and emotional awakening—crucial resistance motifs.

Notable Quote:

“Art should make you feel something. And art, it can be political...there’s a passion to it. And I think that is what they want to stamp out.”
—Christina [05:34]

Key Paintings and Their Meaning

1. Mona Lisa

   • Significance: First artwork destroyed in the book, known worldwide, signaling the regime’s zero tolerance for emotion, memory, and subversion.
   • “I think that was done for a very important reason of, like, setting us up. Here we are. This is the world we're just destroying.” —Kim [06:20]

2. At Eternity’s Gate – Van Gogh

   • Significance: Presents Hal’s emotional state; depicted in blue, hands in his face, embodying despair.
   • “That’s immediately setting us up for Hal’s character...I feel like this is Hal.” —Kim [06:37]

3. A Huguenot on St. Bartholomew’s Day – Millais

   • Significance: Lovers torn by religious conflict, reflecting on whether to sacrifice self for safety (“conform”), a parallel to Emmaline and Hal’s choices.
   • “Is this Hal? Is Hal the guy taking off the armband? ...The woman is wanting the man to conform. Literally be Catholic, just be complacent so we can get through this.” —Kim [08:13]

4. Femme en Corset Lisant – Picasso (Cubism)

   • Significance: A woman reading in fractured cubist style, bringing in themes of imperfection, duality, and subjectivity—emphasizing Emmaline’s heterochromia and the moral grayness of the narrative.
   • “A huge facet of Cubism movement was to show duality. So everything has multiple perspectives. A person can have different sides of their personality.” —Kim [10:55]
   • “Last week, we talked so much about, like, there is no right and there is no wrong...Everything is gray.” —Christina [11:20]

5. The Rock of Doom (Perseus and Andromeda)

   • Significance: Andromeda as the sacrificial lamb chained to the rock, who will be rescued (or not). Parallels with Emmaline’s emotional chains and uncertain rescue.
   • “She is having to conform and be different and hide her heterochromia, which could be like a chain...that kind of weighs her down.” —Christina [13:23]

6. The Separation – Edvard Munch

   • Significance: Hanging in Colin’s living room; depicts a woman in white floating away from a man in black, with a bleeding red flower—scholars see it as unrequited love, heartbreak.
   • Discussion: Is this about Colin’s parents? Past love? A warning to himself?
   • “It's very depressing. Why did he choose that? ...Does this go back to, like, his parents or something?” —Christina [15:03]

7. Orpheus Leading Eurydice from the Underworld

   • Significance: Themes of trust and tragic rescue—Colin as Hades, Emmaline as Orpheus, Hal as Eurydice.
   • “Colin, to me, at first when I read this, I took it at face value as, like, a rescue attempt. And then I thought about it some more and I was like, actually, I think Colin represents Hades in this moment.” —Kim [20:19]
   • “It works so well. Because you’re right, that trust between Colin and Emeline is a thing throughout the whole book.” —Christina [22:27]

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[23:38] Romeo & Juliet Redux: Nora and Gregory

• The hosts shift focus to Emmaline’s closest allies, Nora (Colin’s twin sister) and Gregory, and their forbidden love story—one of the strongest emotional arcs of the book.

Nora

• Elite, assigned to mates since 17, survivor of marital violence, fiercely protective of her children (Arabella, James, Eliana).

• Quote:

  “There is no evil I wouldn’t face to protect them and no evil I wouldn’t become to save them.” —Nora, as read by Christina [25:49]

• Analysis: Elite women, though “privileged”, remain trapped under patriarchal control—just “a more beautiful cage.”

Gregory

• Previously mated, denied access to his son; tragic, tender, and self-sacrificing.
• Profound love for Nora, described in almost cosmic terms.
• Quote:

  “There is not a word I know for what I feel for her. She is everything everywhere—the stars, the earth, the very air. She is everything.” —Gregory, as recited by Kim [34:22]

• Discussion of their “breakup” and the risk of Gregory’s desperation:

  “He is very desperate. And I think when you back somebody into the corner like that and you beat them down over and over again, he’s like: I’ve got nothing to lose.” —Christina [35:40]

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[36:34] Endgame Events & Betrayal: Hal and Emmaline

The Rebellion’s Attack

• Hal brings Emmaline to his underground quarters; they have an intimate night—sweet but fraught with foreboding (and a lack of safe sex, to Anna’s dismay).
• Immediately after, Emmaline discovers the “Moonlight” file: Hal’s group manipulated her—“Make her care. Easiest way to manipulate.” [40:11]
• Hal, when confronted, cannot sincerely apologize, justifying it all for “the cause”.
• Contrast with Colin, who directly and sincerely apologizes for his own betrayals, underscoring the triangle’s moral complexity.

Notable Exchange:

“If you do not apologize, we cannot move on. And it needs to be ‘I’m sorry.’ Period. ...Not ‘but’—full stop.”
—Kim & Christina [42:44]

• Further humiliation: Violet suggests the iconic blue dress (“hero moment”) was part of Hal’s manipulation too, but the hosts question how much to take on faith.

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[52:22] The Elite Ball & Public Downfall

• Emmaline, now friendless, must “act” as Colin’s spy in the dance night chaos; Colin hints at knowing her rebel ties (“Act, Moonlight.” [55:39]), showing both possessive jealousy and fear for her life.
• Tabitha, the terrifying Elam matriarch, makes Hal’s capture a spectacle, telling the city that Emmaline’s “spying” was responsible—isolating Emmaline completely.
• She is elevated to Full Elite in a public move that’s both “reward” and prison.

Key Exchange:

“She will make you care. It is your life we are talking about. ...They will destroy them to destroy you. I have watched them do it, Emmaline.”
—Colin, warning Emmaline (as discussed) [59:01]

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[60:57] Tea Time with Tabitha: Villainy & Power Plays

• Emmaline, manipulated and isolated, is drugged with “fairy wine”; Tabitha declares a sick contest: “Who loves whom more? The winner lives and the loser dies.” [62:03]
• Tabitha’s cruelty escalates—she’s kidnapped all underground mothers’ offspring, leveraging ultimate control.
  • “Offspring are such a glorious way to cause fear...Almost all mothers will do anything you ask. When you hold their offspring, you control the youth, you control them all.” —Tabitha (quoted) [64:27]

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[67:11] The Epilogue & Theory Spiral

Who Is the Reaper?

• The hosts debate community theories on the anonymous epilogue POV (Hal or Colin?). Occam’s Razor points to Hal (matching physical clues and chip pain).

• New theory: the “real” Reaper could be a woman, perhaps the missing Alice, aligning with the book’s recurring theme that women bear the brunt of oppression and thus have revolutionary potential. [72:05]

• Nora’s telling line:

  “Who says it has to be a man? Maybe a woman is tired of being a vessel.” —Nora [71:04]

• Discussion of whether Colin could secretly be the Reaper: most now doubt it, but believe he runs a parallel, more moderate resistance.

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[74:43] Predictions for Book Two

• Forced proximity: Emmaline moves in with Colin, giving rise to trust and deeper connection.
• Hal remains imprisoned, Emmaline’s loyalties further tested.
• A possible secret pregnancy (Nora/Gregory) and the repercussions in a eugenics-obsessed society.
• The premise of “genetic imperfection” will be exposed as a sham—real control is social, not scientific.
• Tabitha’s grip on Colin, the risk of him losing what “hope and kindness” he still has, and more heartbreak ahead.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On art and emotion:

  “If you have things that lead to emotions and make you think, that leads to independent thought and free speech. And obviously, that's the biggest threat to an authoritarian rule.” —Kim [05:30]

• On mothers and rebellion:

  “Their cage is just simply a more beautiful one. But it is absolutely a cage nonetheless.” —Christina [25:25]

• On heartbreak and desperation:

  “All I have ever done is let her go. It is as known to me as breathing.” —Gregory [35:30]

• On betrayal:

  “It makes every single interaction between them feel so tainted...What was real? What was not real?” —Christina [40:29]

• On war, hate, and moral complexity:

  “When everyone above the surface believes everyone below is uncivilized...and you all believe everyone above is immoral...who wins? How can anyone win when you are all hate one another?” —Emmaline (discussed at [47:26])

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Timeline Guide to Key Segments

• [03:09] Art History Symbolism Explored
• [23:38] Nora and Gregory: Character Deep Dive
• [36:34] Hal & Emmaline’s Fallout / Betrayal Exposed
• [52:22] The Elite Ball, Public Betrayal, and Emotional Peak
• [60:57] Tabitha’s Machinations and the “Fairy Wine” Trap
• [67:11] Epilogue Analysis & Reaper Identity Theories
• [74:43] Book Two Predictions and Final Thoughts

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

Flights of Fantasy stays true to its reputation—thoughtful, deeply enthusiastic, community-oriented discussion, never shying from tough topics but always foregrounding empathy, literary love, and female perspectives. The hosts move nimbly between detailed textual analysis and accessible, often funny, pop culture references, making even the “painful” heartbreaking moments entertaining and cathartic. Listeners walk away not just prepared for the next entry in Ariel Sullivan’s world, but with a whole gallery’s worth of new ways to interpret dystopian fantasy through art, romance, and resistance.

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End of Summary.

Transcript

[Christina]

Instagram. Teen accounts have automatic protections for what teens see and who can contact them, plus time management tools. And Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens [e-mail] teenaccounts.

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[Kim]

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[Kim]

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[Kim]

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[Christina]

Welcome to Flights of Fantasy, your Romantasy podcast book club. I'm Christina, joined by my book besties Kim and Anna, and together we are diving into the characters, theories, lore and magic behind all your favorite fantasy romance books.

[Kim]

All right listeners, we are so excited to be back discussing Conform by Ariel Sullivan. This is part two of our episode. Oh, we have so much to go through.

[Christina]

Yes.

[Kim]

Before we dive in and give our spoiler warning, Kim, a few announcements.

[Christina]

I sure do. Let's quickly chat about what we've got going on over on our Patreon for April. This is going to be such a big month. We are kicking things off with the very first episode in our brand new Mass Master Class series. We are so incredibly excited to tell you more about that. Head over to our socials to get the lowdown on what that is. We've also got chapter chats on Rites of the Starlings by Devnee Perry, the sequel to Shield of Sparrows. Plus we've got a Booked with Kim episode featuring a book haul, my current TBR and some behind the scenes podcast goodies. And Anna is bringing you a full reading guide to one of her favorite romance authors, Brittany Nicole. So come join our Patreon family [e-mail] Flights of Fantasy podcast. We would absolutely love to have you. And speaking of our Patreon, one of the many benefits of being one of our tier two book is that you get a special shout out in one of our episodes. So in this episode we are going to be shouting out Katie C. Mariah Chapman and Emily S. Thank you guys so so much for supporting us. We love you to pieces.

[Kim]

We do.

[Christina]

We love you. We love you. Thank you so much for supporting us. And let's dive in.

[Kim]

Let's dive in. All right, listeners, consider this your official spoiler warning for all things Conform by Ariel Sullivan. At the point that this episode is coming out beneath, the prequel to Conform will also have been released. We have not read it, so obviously no spoilers for that.

[Christina]

No.

[Kim]

But from here on out, spoilers for Conform. So let's go.

[Christina]

Yes. Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited for this section. So you guys know that we always do world building with Anna in part one of a new series, and this week, we are doing an art history lesson with Anna.

[Kim]

Yay. I'm so excited.

[Christina]

Yeah. I have not looked at this part of the outline on purpose because I wanted Anna to, like, surprise me, and she has done the research.

[Kim]

You guys, I am beyond excited to talk about this. Okay, so quick note here. Conform uses so many incredible works of art throughout the book. Honestly, I could do an entire episode. I had so many more pieces of art here that I ended up deleting in my master copy because I was like, this is too much. We're in the weeds. I could talk about this all day. But, listeners, I love art. I feel like it's one of my life missions to, like, attend as many art museums as I possibly can. Whenever I was given an opportunity in middle school, high school to do a history project, I would say, like, nine times out of ten, chose an artist to write about. And my daughter Nora is honestly not because I'm her mother, but I think she's actually a very talented artist. Aww. And she always chooses to showcase an art movement for her celebration day at school. She's done pointillism, impression. Oh, wait, no, we're doing impressionism this time. She's done pointillism, cubism. We're working our way through all the isms.

[Christina]

Love that.

[Kim]

So anyways, I love art. I love taking her to art museums. I love getting her impression on what she thinks the art means. So it's just special for me. So this part of the book was very exciting, and I had a feeling, like, you know, as we were going through that the paintings meant something. And so it was really fun when Christina confirmed by listening to an interview with Ariel Sullivan that the art was chosen very intentionally. And so I chose the ones that I think, you know, have the most to say about the story and the characters and where we are emotionally in the story. Okay, so.

[Christina]

Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited.

[Kim]

Let's go through this. All right, art history with Adam. Buckle up. I want to open with this quote from the beginning of the book. And it's from Emmaline, and she says, I think we get rid of all of the ones with people to erase what life was like before the war. I think anything that makes a viewer feel is a threat. Like, we might want more, and that would be the end of everything. Or maybe the beginning, which is such a common theme throughout dystopian books and novels and movies. Right. You know, we have book burnings and destroying art and culture, rewriting history. Because if you have things that lead to emotions and make you think, that leads to independent thought and free speech. And obviously, that's the biggest threat to an authoritarian rule. Right?

[Christina]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you say all the time, like, art should make you feel something.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Christina]

And art, it can be political, like art can. It's like there's a passion to it. And I think that is what they want to stamp out.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Christina]

They want to stamp out that when you look at a painting and you have this visceral reaction to it, they're like, no, no. Because feelings are scary.

[Kim]

Feelings are scary. It's why they. The mating. Everything is so organized and clinical. Clinical and planned. And we can't have the mating bonds last too long, et cetera, because then you get attached and brush off those feelings. They're dangerous. We don't want those.

[Christina]

That's right.

[Kim]

All right, so I think it's. I'm not gonna talk about the Mona Lisa too much. I just wanna say it's the first painting that we see her destroy, which I think was very intentional. It is arguably the most notable piece of artwork in the world. So everybody, no matter what walk of life you're in, if you don't love art, you do love art, you're going to know the Mona Lisa.

[Christina]

Totally.

[Kim]

So I think that was done for a very important reason of, like, setting us up. Here we are. This is the world we're just destroying.

[Christina]

Absolutely.

[Kim]

Okay. So I wanted. The first painting I want to talk about, just really want to touch upon this briefly, is Eternity's Gate. It's by Vincent Van Gogh.

[Christina]

Okay.

[Kim]

The reason I bring this up is because it's actually the first time we see Hal.

[Christina]

Oh.

[Kim]

The man in the painting is wearing all blue. He's holding his hands in his face. And it's. It's supposed to be a depiction of, like, desperate despair and desperation. I feel like that's immediately setting us up for Hal's character. Right. He is desperate to overturn the Elam and the elites because of what's happened to Him. I think so much of what he does in this book is out of the desperation to avenge his parents and all that love that he lost.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And he's wearing blue, and the man is in blue. I feel like this is Hal. Wow.

[Christina]

Oh, that's fascinating. Has to be.

[Kim]

Okay, so a Huguenot on St. Bartholomew's Day is the other painting that comes up that I wanna talk about. Okay. So it's described in the book as a man and a woman embraced fiercely in this art piece. They gazed at each other, her face pleading, as she clutched the ends of a white band wrapped around his arm. He cupped her face tenderly with one hand, but the other pulled against the band. So St. Bartholomew's Day took place in Paris in 1572. It was the Protestants versus the Catholics. France at this time is predominantly Catholic. Catholicism is the main religion. And the woman in the painting is Catholic.

[Christina]

And.

[Kim]

And she wants her Protestant lover to wear the white armband to signify that he is a Catholic, not a Protestant, and therefore he won't be killed during this uprising.

[Christina]

Got it.

[Kim]

She wants to protect him.

[Christina]

Sure.

[Kim]

He is tugging at the armband to pull it off. And Hal and Emmaline see this, and they both note that it seems like a final goodbye. They know that if he removes that armband, they're never going to see each other again. That he's going to go off and be killed.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

So my biggest takeaway from this, when we first read this, we talked about this in chapter chats, and I was like, is this Hal? Is Hal the guy taking off the armband? And she's like, no, just I want you to be safe. Or is it foreshadowing something?

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And I think it might be simpler than that. When I was going back through this, I feel like the woman is wanting the man to conform. Literally be Catholic, just be complacent so that we can get through this. And I think that when this painting shows up as early in the book.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And it's like a commentary on. Do you rebel? Do you put the armband on and conform?

[Christina]

Oh, my gosh. Honestly, this is so impressive of Ariel to take the time to research these art pieces. Or maybe, like you, she is a huge fan of art history, and so she just naturally sort of has a lot of this knowledge. But to put this in here, it's like when Sarah does it with, like, religious aspects, it's always so impressive to me because of the detail that goes into it.

[Kim]

Well, how do you even begin to. Reese, there's so much art out there.

[Christina]

I know.

[Kim]

Like, are you just going into Google going, what art represents? Conforming. Yeah, but I can. You have to cipher.

[Christina]

But you can't, because that's how we're taking it. But other people could interpret it a different way.

[Kim]

Well, art is subjective.

[Christina]

Exactly.

[Kim]

There we go.

[Christina]

Exactly. Yeah. I think this is absolutely foreshadowing something. Or like you said, the idea that she just wants him to conform. You know, I would argue that Emmaline needs to conform to fit in with the elites and her mate, and that maybe Hal is the one that doesn't want her to conform.

[Kim]

Yeah, that's a good point. And again, it's early in the book again, I think a lot of these paintings were placed to be a commentary on what's going on at that time. It could be foreshadowing, but it could also just be as simple as, hey, this art represents what's currently happening within these chapters.

[Christina]

Yeah. Love it. Either way.

[Kim]

So moving on, we have. I'm going to butcher this. It's French. It's femme, femme, une corusant. L' sans un l' evre by Pablo Picasso.

[Christina]

I thought that sounded lovely.

[Kim]

Which essentially translates to a woman in corset reading a book.

[Christina]

Descriptive.

[Kim]

Descriptive. So this is Cubism, which is Pablo Picasso is famous for. This is the Cubism moment.

[Christina]

This is the Cubism moment.

[Kim]

With Hal.

[Christina]

With Hal, yes. Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Kim]

So Cubism, by nature, is a fractured painting. It's all these shapes that put together, make something distorted, but still make a person or a scene or whatever.

[Christina]

Okay.

[Kim]

And I think this commentary is more like the imperfections are what make everything unique. Right. And Emmeline calls the painting beautiful, which I think is a commentary on the fact that, you know, she's imperfect, but just because of her two different colored eyes. Yet Hal finds them beautiful.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And again, art is subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

A huge facet of Cubism movement was to show duality. So everything has multiple perspectives. A person can have different sides of their personality.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Yes. And I think this is really gonna be important for us going forward to remember that, like, not everything is black and white.

[Christina]

Absolutely.

[Kim]

So I just really loved that.

[Christina]

Oh, my gosh. This is crazy. That is absolutely why she put that in there.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

Like, last week, we talked so much about, like, there is no right and there is no wrong. There's no black and white. Everything is gray. Everyone is kind of morally gray to an extent, because we're all doing things and making decisions for what we think is the Right. Reason.

[Kim]

And we, the readers, still don't have a full. I mean, obviously the illum is bad and whole world that they created is not great. But Colin and Hal themselves are working within morally gray confines and, like, totally. They all have different lines and different masks and that duality.

[Christina]

Duality of man. Yes. Oh, my gosh. I love it. Okay, what's next?

[Kim]

Okay, so then we have the Rock of Doom. This one's interesting. So this painting depicts Greek mythology. Okay. It's the story of Perseus and Andromeda. So Andromeda is chained to a rock in the middle of the sea and she's a sacrifice to the sea monster. This is one of my favorite Greek myth mythology stories I used to read as a kid. I don't know why I loved it so much, but I did.

[Christina]

Okay.

[Kim]

And Perseus is Poseidon's son. If you read Percy Jackson.

[Christina]

Okay. I have not.

[Kim]

But yeah. So Perseus saves Andromeda from the sea. They have a happily ever after. He unchains her. So this is after the blue dress moment. Okay. And it's after Emmeline meets Nora and sees the inside of Colin's private living quarters where she learns about the Reaper and all of that. And she's feeling conflicted, especially because she and Hal also shared a romantic moment.

[Christina]

Oh, yes. This was after the rain.

[Kim]

The rain scene. And I've got you. Yeah.

[Christina]

Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Kim]

It's interesting because Perseus is rescuing the main female character of the painting. Right. Andromeda.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And I don't know if it's gonna be a commentary on, like, who rescues her. Like, who is her true love. Because they do end up having a happily ever after. And she is the sacrificial lamb in this painting. Yes. And then there's the chains, which could be the ships. Right. The chains of the dystopian society that they live in. It's very literal, but sure.

[Christina]

But still. Oh, wow. I mean, to me, I would take that as, like, Hal's the one that rescued her. And maybe the chains represent Colin in this moment. Just in this scene.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Christina]

Because she is having to conform and be different and hide her heterochromia, which could be like a chain or something like that, that kind of weighs her down.

[Kim]

Right.

[Christina]

That's fascinating.

[Kim]

I know. I just.

[Christina]

God.

[Kim]

Well done, Ariel.

[Christina]

I know.

[Kim]

So the next one is we have two more. So we have the Separation by Edward Munsch. And this painting is actually hanging in Colin's living room. It's not one with Emmeline and Hal in the archives.

[Christina]

Okay.

[Kim]

And this makes it really interesting to me because it's in his living room. It's a man in black. He's clutching his heart. There's, like, deep sorrow on his face. And then there's a woman in a white dress moving away from him. And the brushstrokes between the two are vastly different. The woman in white, the brushstrokes are light and airy. Literally looks like she's floating away. Her hair is, like, kind of going behind her, almost tied to the man. And then the man in black is heavier brushstrokes, obviously, it's dark colors. And then in the foreground, you have this red flower plant. And the red literally looks like it's bleeding out. It's not confined to the plant itself. It's, like, weeping out of the plant.

[Christina]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[Kim]

I did a lot of research on this one in particular, because it's hanging out in Colin's living quarters, and it just feels very, like an interesting choice to have something so sad. And Emily notices it. More than once, she gravitates towards the painting, which I found interesting. And it's interesting because art scholars, when I went to look this up, overwhelmingly agree that the painting depicts unrequited love and. Or, like, a lingering heartbreak from a romantic detachment. Interesting breakup, which, I don't know, kind of wanted to chat with you. That.

[Christina]

Why would that be in his living room?

[Kim]

It's very depressing.

[Christina]

Like, why did he choose that?

[Kim]

It's the focal point.

[Christina]

Does this go back to, like, we talked about last week? Like, maybe his parents or something?

[Kim]

I don't know. That's the thing. It's like, is the woman his mother? I know that art scholars say it's unrequited love, but is that woman leaving him like, his.

[Christina]

But that could be parental. Like, if his parents abandoned him. Did his parents abandoned him and he feels abandoned by them, and then therefore, he doesn't have closure with them, and he feels like, okay, so.

[Kim]

But what if it wasn't a Banned him? And maybe they were taken downgraded, you know, down to blue.

[Christina]

Like, majors.

[Kim]

Majors or something. Like, they're not there. They're. They're referred to in the past tense always. I don't know. It's just interesting.

[Christina]

Or that's so interesting. Did he have a love maybe?

[Kim]

Like, was there somebody he loved and it was taken from him? Or did the painting just showcase a despair that he feels because of. I don't know. We have another theory, which we'll get to but, like, does he possibly have a child?

[Christina]

That's what I was gonna bring up.

[Kim]

I don't know. There's something interesting. It's a bleeding heart.

[Christina]

It has to either be a past love or a family. Someone in his immediate family. A family member, a loved one.

[Kim]

The only other thing I thought about was, did he choose it as a reminder? Maybe he lost his parents. They're not there, clearly, but maybe he chose the painting as a reminder of what can happen. Ooh. Like, this is what happens when things don't work out.

[Christina]

Or, like, when you care about.

[Kim]

When you care about someone like Gregory and Nora.

[Christina]

Yes. Well, he yells at her later. He says, we'll get to the coast. Like, they'll take everything from you. They'll take everything you care about. I have seen them do it. Emmaline.

[Kim]

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[Christina]

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[Christina]

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[Kim]

I've seen them. That's present or that's, like, active.

[Christina]

That's personal.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

And he's terrified. He's furious. It's a very.

[Kim]

Like, somebody who has been through something and then is so scared of it happening. It's like you want to shake the person. Like, why are you not getting this?

[Christina]

Yeah, he was clearly very, like, triggered. Triggered. Yeah, very triggered.

[Kim]

It's very interesting.

[Christina]

And so I don't know, to me, that seems like it's. It's happened to him.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

I hope we find out.

[Kim]

I mean, we got to. Right?

[Christina]

We have to.

[Kim]

All right. The last painting, which I'm really excited about, because I've seen this one. It's Orpheus leading Eurydice from the underworld. Apologies if I mispronounce Eurydice. So this is Orpheus and it's another tragedy. Greek gods. Okay, so Orpheus is rescuing his love from Hades, and the condition is that he cannot look back while they exit the Underworld. Yes, it's a very famous painting and story. And Orpheus almost reaches the end and he gets nervous because they're not allowed to talk. He cannot hear her and he cannot look behind him. And he gets to the end, and just as right when they're about to exit, he turns to look and he loses her forever. And it's a tragic story. So you have two rescue pictures. You have Perseus, Andromeda rescuing her from the rocks. Ends happily. Yes. And then you have this one which ends tragically, which is interesting.

[Christina]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Kim]

Because this one happens right before a scene with Colin. So this happens right before Colin and Emeline enter the elite ball. It's the first time they are really seeing each other after the dinner party from hell, which we talked about in the previous episode.

[Christina]

Okay, so this is toward the end.

[Kim]

This is towards the end, not the elite ball that, like, has Hal captured. It's the one where she's presented. But it's after the dinner party from Hal where they eliminate the minor defect.

[Christina]

I see. Got it.

[Kim]

Okay, so Emeline is upset, obviously, and she remembers seeing the painting while she's in the degrading process with the Starlights. She remembers that painting, and then the next page is her with Colin. So in this scene, Colin asks for her trust going into the ball, and he acknowledges that, you know, she doesn't trust him. And he's essentially like, I'm asking a favor of you tonight. I need you to trust me in there. Otherwise people die. Is like, the gist of the conversation.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And Colin, to me, at first when I read this, I took it at face value as, like, a rescue attempt. And then I thought about it some more and I was like, actually, I think Colin represents Hades in this moment. Oh, because he works for the enemy. Colin works for the enemy. He exists. His whole life is morally gray. Right?

[Christina]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kim]

And he's asking Emmeline for blind trust, just like Hades asks Orpheus for blind trust.

[Christina]

Yes.

[Kim]

And he's like, follow my rules. Please don't fight me. I know I haven't earned it, but, like, I just need you to give me this favor today. And then we also know clearly, like. Or at least we have deduced as readers, you and I, Kim. Readers. You might disagree, listeners, but we think Colin is, like, playing his own game. Right.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Like, he's got another mask he's wearing. The stakes for him are incredibly high. And in the same, he essentially is like, if you're not gonna do it for yourself, do it for everyone else that you care about. And I think, you know, he has Nora, her children, Gregory, Philip. To him, it's like, not just him who could be found out and killed. It's all of his family.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And then you bring the painting back into it, and especially with Orpheus and the mix.

[Christina]

I'm looking at it as you talk. I've never seen this before.

[Kim]

So when you think about the painting with Orpheus leading Eurydice out, in the story, Hades is actually telling the truth. Right. He's not lying to Orpheus, but Orpheus doesn't have a reason to trust him, just like Emily doesn't have a reason to trust Colin. But he's like, please, please trust me or things will go to shit. And I'm like, is this foreshadowing? He's asking a favor. He's asking to trust her. So there's that literal interpretation. But then is the foreshadowing, like, he'll have to earn that trust in the future, like we've talked about. Right?

[Christina]

Yes.

[Kim]

We had a big conversation about this last week.

[Christina]

Yes. And then he's like, if you don't. And then she doesn't. She goes. And she's working with the rebels. And then at the end, he's like, it's out of my hands now.

[Kim]

It's out of my hands. It's Uranus.

[Christina]

You're going to have to do whatever Tabitha says.

[Kim]

And she's lost Hal right now.

[Christina]

Yes.

[Kim]

So Hades is Colin, and it's almost like Emmaline is Orpheus.

[Christina]

Orpheus.

[Kim]

And then Eurydice is Hal. And he's leading them out, and she's like, you didn't trust me. And now look what happened.

[Christina]

Ariel, this is wildly impressive, which is

[Kim]

like, why would Orpheus trust Hades, King of the Underworld? It totally makes sense that you're like, why would I trust you?

[Christina]

I think you're 100% spot on. I think that is the absolute interpretation that we are supposed to take from this.

[Kim]

It's so cool, Ariel, Like. And I'm just doing the research. Ariel wrote this.

[Christina]

I know, but it works so well. Because you're right, that trust between Colin and Emily is a thing throughout the whole book. Right. They have so many conversations about it, and she's like, are you gonna ask my forgiveness? And he's like, I'm not gonna ask for something that's lost forever.

[Kim]

Unattainable. Yeah. The theme of trust between them is doubt.

[Christina]

Well, and like you said, Emily doesn't have a reason to trust Colin. And I do think Col hiding things from Emmaline just like Hal did, but it's completely different.

[Kim]

100%. I'm so curious how this is going to play out.

[Christina]

I know. I want book two so badly.

[Kim]

I don't. Okay. Anyways, that is our history lesson with Anna. I hope you all enjoyed that. That was longer than our normal history lessons, but I thoroughly enjoyed myself.

[Christina]

That was amazing. And I'm so excited to see if she continues this in book two or maybe even in Beneath whenever we read it. Maybe. I don't know, maybe they are storing art beneath. Right?

[Kim]

Oh my God.

[Christina]

Yeah, because remember, Hal says like I pick things up out of the trash essentially. And that's how he knows about cubism, which we know that that's not true, but yeah.

[Kim]

And she's not going now that she's deemed elite. I wonder if she even goes back to the archives.

[Christina]

Oh, probably not.

[Kim]

I wonder if she'll see art in elite homes.

[Christina]

Exactly. Yes, precisely.

[Kim]

Fascinating.

[Christina]

That's what I think.

[Kim]

All right, Ariel, hats off.

[Christina]

Hats off to you, Ariel.

[Kim]

Yes. All right, Kim, can we talk about Gregory and Nora?

[Christina]

We must. Our star crossed lovers. Truly the Romeo and Juliet of this series, I think. Okay, so let's start with Nora. Yes. So Nora is Colin's twin sister. There is a lot to unpack with her character. And I think Ariel did such a fantastic job with both Gregory and Nora as side characters. I really like both of them.

[Kim]

I agree. I love them.

[Christina]

We were wary about, I think both of them going in just because they're elite and they're elite, you know, we don't know. And I. There were moments where I was like, is Nora being shifty? Is she being untrustworthy?

[Kim]

But yeah, like that. Healthy skepticism, sure.

[Christina]

But I feel like we can trust Nora. I hope.

[Kim]

Honestly, if we are betrayed by Nora or Gregory, that will be a plot twist item. See? Coming.

[Christina]

Absolutely.

[Kim]

I will be gutted.

[Christina]

Me too.

[Kim]

I try. I put my whole heart into you.

[Christina]

That's. How dare you.

[Kim]

How dare you stomp on it.

[Christina]

So what do we know about Nora? Nora has three children that we are aware of. Arabella, James and Eliana. Or Ilana.

[Kim]

Eliana. Yes.

[Christina]

However you say that she was just 17 years old the first time she was assigned a mate. Edward, garbage trash that he is, and he was five years older than her at the time.

[Kim]

That's gross.

[Christina]

And when she refused to sleep with him, Edward became very upset and violent towards her. And it was actually Gregory who heard her screaming and broke into the room and rescued her from Edward, which is incredibly sweet. And I think this moment really highlights something important about the structure of this world, and it's that while elite women may appear to have more freedom than those labeled as major or minor defects, they are definitely still operating within the same system of control.

[Kim]

Oh, for sure.

[Christina]

They are still assigned a mate, expected to comply. They are still confined. In a lot of ways, their cage is just simply a more beautiful one. But it is absolutely a cage nonetheless.

[Kim]

Women are second class.

[Christina]

Absolutely. We see it with Nora. We see it with Helen, Emmaline's biological mother.

[Kim]

Yes, absolutely.

[Christina]

And I think what we connected with for Nora the most was her role as a mother and the things that she. How she spoke about her children and how she spoke about motherhood. It really resonated with us, I think, a lot.

[Kim]

She was such a fierce advocate for her children with only having the limited access to them that she could, which

[Christina]

I just can't imagine that moment. We talked about it last week where she's talking with Emmaline and she says, like, there is no evil I wouldn't face to protect them and no evil I wouldn't become to save them. Like that.

[Kim]

Hang it in the Louvre.

[Christina]

Hang it in the Louvre. I think about that quote all the time. All the time. Ever since we finished reading that book, I cannot stop thinking about these quotes because. And Ariel's a mother, so it makes sense that she would weave this in here so seamlessly. But it just really resonated with me, and it just really tells you everything about who Nora is at her core. Like, she will do anything. Like you said, her children are her entire reason for staying alive in this horrible, awful world.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

So let's talk about Gregory.

[Kim]

Sweet, troubled, handsome, silly Gregory. I don't know. I just love him. I want to wrap him in a hug.

[Christina]

Me, too.

[Kim]

He is Matthew from.

[Christina]

He is Matthew.

[Kim]

Chain of iron, Chain of gold. Yes, listeners, if you've read that Cassandra Clare book. Oh, God, I want to hold him. I want to say I love you. It'll be okay.

[Christina]

It's okay. Like, he is so tortured. He's a tortured poet.

[Kim]

He's a tortured poet.

[Christina]

At first I was like, okay, he's kind of a dick. But that's obviously a mask and a front that he wears to get through the drinking is definitely a coping mechanism. Oh, this poor man. So we don't know a ton about Gregory's personal life yet. But we do know that he was previously mated and he has a son named Timothy, but that his previous mate hates him and won't let him see Timothy.

[Kim]

I know. How do you get on that? Like, how are you. How do you have your parenting days revoked at the academy?

[Christina]

See, that's interesting to me because I feel like men are not even expected to go visit their offspring. Because I feel like, why would a man even care to do that? They're supposed to be so removed from it that it's interesting that he even would care to go see Timothy, because

[Kim]

I think Gregory's just not normal in that world. Right, right.

[Christina]

But I'm saying it's interesting that he makes it a point to say, like, she won't let me see him.

[Kim]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Christina]

He's clearly different, like you said, because I don't think any of the other males.

[Kim]

I don't think any of the other

[Christina]

guys are going in Edward or the.

[Kim]

His name is. Cares to see Arab. Actually, we don't have confirmation that Edward is actually any of her children's father. Right.

[Christina]

That's true. No, we don't.

[Kim]

So there's three kids and she's on

[Christina]

her, I think, her fourth mate.

[Kim]

Fourth mate. Interesting.

[Christina]

But she could have had multiple children with one mate.

[Kim]

Like I guess how Vincent did with Helen.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Which is interesting because normally you rotate mates every five years.

[Christina]

I think you are allowed, if you produce, like, a good offspring, I think you might be able to procreate again. Yeah. Because if your contract for four or five years, you can have multiple children in that time.

[Kim]

True. I always just thought that that was it. You can only have one. That's what I thought in my head.

[Christina]

I think you. If you have a certain amount of. If you have four years, it's. You just mate however many times you probably have any times the man wants to. If I'm being honest with you.

[Kim]

Gross.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Okay.

[Christina]

So we start off with Gregory. You're not quite sure what to make of him, but as the story unfolds, you really start to see those moments of vulnerability that completely reframed how we saw him 100%. And your heart just goes out to him, like we've said. Like, I just. Oh, the things that. How he speaks about Nora and how he. You can clearly tell he has just been through so much loss and pain. And I think one scene that really stands out that we want to talk about is this interaction with his brother Philip at the ball.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Christina]

Right after Emmeline and Hal have their secret makeout session in the closet. And there are two key things from this scene that feel incredibly important. I'm gonna read it, and then we're gonna discuss it. So first we learn that Philip was actually matched with Nora for this round that they're all in. Yeah. Yes, but Philip turned it down because he knew it would destroy Gregory, obviously. Which is surprising because I've said that Philip reminds me of, like, an early Percy from Harry Potter. And so it does suggest that he does care about his brother in some capacity.

[Kim]

Yes, because I think we talked about this in chapter. Chapter two, that he struck us as a Percy. But based on the ending of this book, I hope he's not going to be a Percy.

[Christina]

Right, well, Percy comes around in the end.

[Kim]

Oh, he does? Yeah.

[Christina]

He comes back to fight in the battle of Hogwarts and shows up. Oh, my God.

[Kim]

Totally forgot that. Yeah, totally forgot that.

[Christina]

I won't say spoilers for Harry Potter because it came out a million years ago.

[Kim]

And

[Christina]

it is what it is.

[Kim]

It is what it is.

[Christina]

So that's interesting that he shows, like, familial loyalty to his brother. And he's like, I turned them down. But Philip is like, okay, but you've got to accept this mating contract with low. People are starting to notice the connection between you and Nora. And, like, we know that kind of attention is very dangerous. They don't want anybody creating a bond and emotional attachment.

[Kim]

Nope, nope, nope.

[Christina]

Guys, the scene. Okay, so Philip says others are noticing. They will not allow it. They will never allow it. They will not give you something you care about. You know this. You have to let her go. Go. Gregory says, I will never let her go. And Philip says, if you love her. And then the sound of a fist collides with a wall. If. Gregory shouted if. Do not question something you have no idea about. You have never loved anything, Philip. All you have ever done is climb your way up. Don't ask if I love her. I have given everything to her. Gregory's voice shook with a fury. I felt. Then you doom her. Philip threatened. He didn't even raise his voice. My hands grew clammy. I swore I could feel Gregory's fury break as pain slithered through the door.

[Kim]

Slithered through the door.

[Christina]

I mean, first of all, incredible writing.

[Kim]

Oh, this breaks my heart. Oh, God.

[Christina]

Gregory, he's like, don't.

[Kim]

Like, don't even question it.

[Christina]

I have given everything to her.

[Kim]

You feel that. You feel that in every interaction they have.

[Christina]

Yes, yes.

[Kim]

Like, it is heartbreaking.

[Christina]

It's heartbreaking. The anguish that he feels for her.

[Kim]

I honestly, Nora, in some ways, in a lot of ways, I feel like is a stronger person to handle this.

[Christina]

Yes.

[Kim]

Gregory, to me, I feel like he has nothing. He can't see his son. And without having Nora, there is literally nothing else. And I feel like he. Oh, this is really hard to say. Not because it's a bad thing, but Nora has her children and that they hold that over her head. So she has to keep mating and she's never going to be mated with Gregory. Gregory would rather die than sleep with anyone. The thought, I think, makes him sick. It's why he keeps turning down every mating bond or mating contract. And it's so sad to me, like, when you see him, he just feels so. Like a wounded animal.

[Christina]

He is.

[Kim]

And Nora, I just feel like, has an inner strength, which I'm wondering how that's going to play out in the next book. Like, if it.

[Christina]

Well, she even says, I reread the ending, which I can't. We're about to get to. But Nora and Emeline are having a conversation after her and Gregory, quote, unquote, break up. And she says he. He will come back, like he always does, despite all common sense and good reason.

[Kim]

Reason.

[Christina]

She basically says he keeps coming back. And she obviously can't stay away either. But I do agree there is an inner strength and resolve to her because she's a mother. Like, I'm sorry, but just sorry, not sorry, like, mothers are badasses and will do. We are literally anything. Like she says, there's no evil I would not become. And I do think there is a part of her that's like, I have to do this. So sorry, but, like, I have to go off and be mated. I have to go off and have a baby.

[Kim]

My children, like, they won't let me see my children.

[Christina]

My children's lives depend on it, truly.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

And wouldn't we all do the same thing?

[Kim]

I would. Yeah. Even Colin says Arabella is almost of mating age. Like, remember that? Like, he says that to her and she's like, don't bring my children into this. Or Gregory says, don't bring her children into this. And Colin's like, it's not me. I'm reminding you, though.

[Christina]

He's like, I won't. But they will.

[Kim]

But they will. Fuck the Illuminate. I cannot wait to talk about Tabitha.

[Christina]

Oh, fuck Tabitha.

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[Kim]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this your first date?

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[Kim]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

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[Kim]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. I love this quote that Gregory has. He has so many. But there's just one in particular that he says to Emmeline about Nora. I do love that they have this brotherly sisterly attachment that seems to have formed almost like it was inevitable. Like no matter what world they were in, they were bound to be brother and sister. It's kind of sweet how easy and fast they fell into it.

[Christina]

Absolutely.

[Kim]

And she asks him, do you love her? And Gregory laughs. And then he says, there is not a word I know for what I feel for her. She is. And Gregory swallows, shaking his head as he stared at the stars. She is everything everywhere. The stars, the earth, the very air. She is everything. There is nothing I wouldn't do for her. Which is a scary thought, too, you know. And she. Later on, it comes up again. It's after he catches her coming out and she's all disheveled for making out with Hal. And he warns her, like, you're gonna regret this. You know, you're fighting to keep a secret. He's like, I know what that's like.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And you're fighting for these fleeting moments. And he says, the goodbyes will lurk and ruin you, cutting you down each time. And the illum will find out, and they will not allow it. They will ensure you never get it. And then she follows up with, will you let her go? Oh, God. And Gregory laughs. It was humorless and raw, seeped in bitterness. All I have ever done is let her go. It is as known to me as breathing.

[Christina]

Oh, my God. That gives me goosebumps.

[Kim]

The writing.

[Christina]

That writing is incredible. You feel his desperation.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Christina]

It makes him very dangerous. I agree. It does. He is very desperate. And I think when you back somebody into the corner like that and you beat them down over and over again, he's like, I've got nothing to lose.

[Kim]

Nervous.

[Christina]

It does make me nervous.

[Kim]

It makes me nervous that he's gonna somehow sacrifice himself or he's gonna make a really bad decision and trust the wrong person. Or, you know, if Colin and Philip are working together secretly, which we've kind of, like, speculated in our chapter chats and stuff, but, you know, are they working together to upend the illum and overthrow from within, but they're not letting Gregory in on the secrets. So is Gregory then gonna take it into his own hands and do something stupid and impulsive like. It just makes me worried.

[Christina]

Oh, yeah, Agreed. Absolutely.

[Kim]

All right, well, listeners, here we go with that. We have reached the part of our episode where we are at the end of the book and shit really picks up Y. So let's walk through these events, and Kim, you walk us through the big. The first one.

[Christina]

I don't want to.

[Kim]

I know. I don't want to do it. Okay. Awful.

[Christina]

It's terrible. As a team, Hal apologist. I hate what I have to do here, but we must do it. Okay, so obviously the catalyst for the end of the book is the night when Hal approaches Emmaline in the archives and he tells her that the rebels are taking down the power grid so that they can attack the Elites. He is still recovering from being injured in the last rebel attack, so he is not allowed to actually fight in this upcoming attack. So he brings Emeline down to his quarters below the surface, and this is where they have sex. And this is Emeline's first time having sex. And it is a really sweet moment. Hal is very conscientious with her and he takes care of her. But then it's completely ruined by what happens afterwards.

[Kim]

It drove me insane that there was no use of, like, safe sex. Like, at no point was a condom brought up.

[Christina]

I could have sworn she says condom, and then. Then they just move on from it.

[Kim]

Okay, but did you read. Did you look? Because I couldn't find the word.

[Christina]

No, I didn't go reread that part. I could have sworn she. Someone says something about a condom, and then they just. They move on, and it's never brought up again.

[Kim]

The word condom is not in the book.

[Christina]

Maybe they don't have condoms, but, like, something like. I don't know. So the. Neither of them ever say Anything about.

[Kim]

No, they just stick it in. And then he doesn't even say, like, it says she has an orgasm and then he shudders.

[Christina]

Oh, God damn it, Hal. That's so irresponsible. We do not have time for a baby right now.

[Kim]

Especially because she's off of her birth control. That is made a note of. She's off of her supplements for her birth control because she's now made it to Colin.

[Christina]

I hate that.

[Kim]

I don't think there's gonna be, like, a love baby.

[Christina]

I hope not.

[Kim]

I really hope not. I really don't think so. It irks me as like, a parent. Safe sex. Please, truly, just wrap it up.

[Christina]

It's irresponsible.

[Kim]

Irresponsible.

[Christina]

It's completely irresponsible.

[Kim]

Now is not the time.

[Christina]

I thought the scene between them was beautiful and sweet and he was very kind with her.

[Kim]

Very sweet with her. Yeah.

[Christina]

Afterwards, Emeline is like, I want to be a part of the rebel group. I want to help in some way. And she's even like, I'll cut my chip out. Like, you help me. He's like, no, we can't do that. She's like, well, you did it. You know, that way I can stay below the surface and.

[Kim]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christina]

So his response is not just no. He encourages her to continue to get close to Colin and to fulfill her duties as his mate.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

He says, once we know you have his trust, we could feed false information to the Elam. Just something to think over. How much are you willing to do to help? Who are you willing to hurt?

[Kim]

That's interesting.

[Christina]

And then in her inner monologue, she's like, what if I didn't want to hurt anyone? I wanted to help those moments. I wanted to help the crying offspring. I wanted to help the drugged minors, Violet and Rose, Gregory and Nora. I wanted them to have a place to belong. Not everyone in the clouds deserved to be destroyed. It wasn't that simple.

[Kim]

It's not. Never is. No.

[Christina]

And this, I think, to me, is the biggest indicator that Hal is going to let the cause override what he feels for Emmaline.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

Because I do think he cares deeply about Emily.

[Kim]

I do, too. I don't think we have all of them of this beauty. I don't. Unless he is the best liar on the planet.

[Christina]

I don't think so.

[Kim]

It felt too genuine.

[Christina]

I think it just got out of hand. I don't think he got out of hand like we talked about last week. I don't think he was supposed to seduce her that Obviously was not in his plan.

[Kim]

It also makes me question whether or not he's the Reaper, because there's too much of him, like, thinking with his dick.

[Christina]

Well, Anna, he is a man, so, I mean.

[Kim]

And he is a man, man. So the bar is low.

[Christina]

So then she finds the folder titled Moonlight.

[Kim]

This gutted me.

[Christina]

I literally wanted to throw my Kindle across the room. I was like, I fucking hate everything about this.

[Kim]

I hated this.

[Christina]

So there's a file folder on her titled moonlight, which is obviously. We know the nickname that Hal calls her.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

And as she begins reading through it, she comes across this line. There's, like, all these facts about her, Right.

[Kim]

Oh, God.

[Christina]

And this line says, hates her eyes. Make her like them. Make her care. Easiest way to manipulate. How? How? I hate that. I hate it. It makes every single interaction between them feel so tainted.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

And, like, what was real? What was not real? I hate that he put that in there about her eyes because he has such a beautiful line about her eyes. And now I'm like, was that bullshit?

[Kim]

This just triggered another theory idea.

[Christina]

What?

[Kim]

But let's. I'll save it for the end.

[Christina]

Okay.

[Kim]

Because I think it'll be fun to discuss in the epilogue.

[Christina]

Okay. So Emmaline obviously confronts him. She's like, what the fuck? And he initially denies it. I don't know why. And you can tell he definitely feels guilty. And it's enough that, like, obviously there's truth to what she's found.

[Kim]

Right, Right, right.

[Christina]

And he tries to explain it and soften it, but the damage is already done. And I think what makes this moment hit harder is the language he uses. He keeps saying we as in the rebel group, meaning this wasn't just Hal acting alone. This was coordinated, intentional, and a collective decision.

[Kim]

Yeah. It doesn't feel, like, good to be, like, the butt of a joke.

[Christina]

Exactly.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

And I think that realization for her is devastating because it's not just about how. It's about every interaction Emmaline has had with the rebels up to this point. And she's questioning all of it. What was real, what wasn't. Yeah. And on top of that, like, we've talked about, she had already gone out of her way to help them.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Christina]

She warned them. She put herself at risk.

[Kim]

And so now it's like, am I stupid?

[Christina]

Yes. Like, why did I put myself out there and potentially get targeted by Tabitha and Colin, my mate, to go help you when you guys were.

[Kim]

I was a job the whole time.

[Christina]

Time I was a mark, I was a mark.

[Kim]

That sucks.

[Christina]

And so she's embarrassed and she feels shamed. And no one wants to feel like they've been manipulated.

[Kim]

Everybody has a moment in their life where you felt that embarrassment of something and you'll never forget it.

[Christina]

No.

[Kim]

It always sits with you. I can feel it now. Junior year of high school, and it was the worst feeling.

[Christina]

It's the worst feeling. And her and Hal did have this vulnerable emotional connection that I think she did not have with Colin. And I think that sense makes. Makes it worse. And Hal makes it even worse than it already is.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

And instead of taking full accountability, he doubles down and he is justifying his actions as being for the greater cause. And while that might make sense from, like, a strategic standpoint.

[Kim]

It's war times. We get it. Yes.

[Christina]

It's war times. And I do understand that emotionally, it completely invalidates what Emelina's feeling in that moment. Because now it's not just that he hurt her.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

It's that he's trying to tell her that that hurt was necessary. And I'm not sorry it happened because it needed to happen for the cause.

[Kim]

We are very consistent with our. Like, you need to apologize. No buts.

[Christina]

You guys know how we feel about that.

[Kim]

If you know, you know.

[Christina]

If you know, you know. If you do not apologize, we will never. We cannot move on from this.

[Kim]

We cannot move on. And it needs to be I'm sorry, period.

[Christina]

I'm sorry, not. But full stop.

[Kim]

End of discussion.

[Christina]

Yeah, absolutely. It's not that hard.

[Kim]

Yes. Which, speaking of apologies, I thought this was interesting and we talked about this a little bit in the previous episode when she confronts him and she. When Emmaline confronts Hal, she's looking for that apology. She's looking for an explanation. And like you said, he doubles down and. Which was interesting because we talked about this at the dinner party From Hell, Part 2. When Colin does something that is, ugh, makes me so mad as my Colin apologist, you know, when he eliminates that.

[Christina]

When he personally betrayed Anna.

[Kim]

When he personally betrayed me. And then he comes in and the first thing he says to her, no preamble, nothing after it's, forgive me, please. And it literally, it says, I felt the others go still at those words. Words. Like, he has never spoken to anyone like that before.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Which is interesting to me. I think Colin has a lot of growth to do. It is just interesting to see the two side by side.

[Christina]

Oh, absolutely. I think Ariel did that on purpose.

[Kim]

Oh, I think so too.

[Christina]

I think she's having Colin apologize and want her trust and want her Forgiveness. And Hal does not seem to be seeking that same forgiveness. He's saying I can't be sorry because it's for the cause. So does he care enough about her to put her first above the rebels when push comes to shove? Is this going to be a Hunger Game situation? I won't, won't say. But if you know, you know. And that makes me nervous.

[Kim]

Kim, what do you think? How do you feel by the end of this? Because like I know like I obviously I love Colin and I'll defend Colin like until I'm blue in the face. But like I also love Hal. I do. If she ends up with Hal, I mean obviously not right now. I don't want her with Hal. But I think there is room to grow. I love the idea that like he's betrayed her and it's now it's kind of like he's the enemy in a way. I love that push and the pull and we might have to grow. And I do love that kind of like story and that trope. So I would be happy to see that. But I don't. What do you think?

[Christina]

I think if they do end up together, we've got a long road ahead of us.

[Kim]

So do you think the trajectory is more what you're saying, where it's gonna be? He chooses the cause and then Colin comes out of his coldness and we like see more of him in the next book.

[Christina]

I think it's either gonna go that way or we're gonna flip flop and Hal is gonna realize that nothing is more important than Emeline and he's going to put her above the rebel cause. And then maybe Colin decides like he can't put Emmaline before whatever agenda he

[Kim]

has going on, whatever he's protecting going

[Christina]

on in his world, he can't let that go.

[Kim]

It could go either way.

[Christina]

Well obviously it has to.

[Kim]

Like it's not a White shoes. As much as I want it to be.

[Christina]

It's not a White Shoes as much as Anna really wants it to be a Brutus of Bristolbrook situation. It is not. So it's gonna have to go. Somebody's not gonna put her her first. Somebody's gonna say the cause, whatever their causes are and they're gonna knock in a bunch.

[Kim]

I think we're gonna get a sacrifice.

[Christina]

Oh, interesting.

[Kim]

I think like one of them is gonna like Colin would. I think Colin's the obvious choice cuz Hal's in Locked Up.

[Christina]

Oh, see, I think it'd be how cuz Tabitha's like who loves who More whoever doesn't gets killed.

[Kim]

I think Colin will help rescue Hal to allow like he wants Emmaline to be happy. Like I think it's gonna be a situation where Colin loves her and he lets her go.

[Christina]

Interesting.

[Kim]

And she goes with Hal.

[Christina]

Do you think he loves her at this point?

[Kim]

Does Hal? I think he doesn't understand his feelings.

[Christina]

Right.

[Kim]

I think there is something about her that is growing to love. Like I think they don't have enough time to be fall in love.

[Christina]

That's what I think. I think he cares about her. Like on a basic level I think

[Kim]

he cares about her. And I think there's something about her. Like it's an immediate attraction. Like it's Hal and her. I think built over time for sure. And I think for Colin it was more hit him in his gut and he doesn't know how to deal with that for sure.

[Christina]

It scares him.

[Kim]

Yeah, it scares him. And I think he might let her go to be with Hal. But then Hal will choose the cause and she'll come back to Colin.

[Christina]

And I think Colin might help. Maybe Hal accidentally puts her in a bad situation and Colin has to come save her.

[Kim]

Yes. I love that.

[Christina]

That would be fascinating. I love that, Kim. I love that.

[Kim]

Ariel.

[Christina]

Ariel, call us if you haven't already drafted the book. Let us know.

[Kim]

Let us know. Okay, sorry. Keep going.

[Christina]

So basically Hal just continues to double down. He reinforces the reaper and rebel sentiment that everyone above the surface essentially deserves to die. That only major defects should be saved. Yeah, and she accuses him of thinking that. Oh, so she's like. So you're just saying that all the other minors are brainwashed and unworthy of being saved. And Hal just stares at her and he doesn't deny it.

[Kim]

This, this is. This is reinforcing your idea that like he might choose the cause over her. I think he's blinded by vengeance.

[Christina]

He is. Cuz she says when everyone above the surface believes everyone below is uncivilized and defective and you all believe everyone above is immoral and self serving, who wins? How can anyone win when you are all hate one another?

[Kim]

There's so much.

[Christina]

And then how says nothing. She says, how are you any different from them? I love that she says this to him because it's so true. If you are ignorant on both sides and you are saying that the people on the other side nobody matters. That's close minded. You're wrong. And that's why war and all of this is so hard.

[Kim]

Which is interesting because Nora never treats her like she's an other. Yeah. And I think that is a key difference between when Emmeline is with Hal and the Rebels and the sentiment there against even the minors. And then the elites. But then when she's with Colin and Nora, they don't treat her like another. And they don't speak about the minors, those two. And Gregory and Philip.

[Christina]

Absolutely.

[Kim]

They don't speak about the minors as if they are less than, you know. So. And that's an interesting juxtaposition between the two groups.

[Christina]

That is very interesting.

[Kim]

And if that's your mindset, that says a lot.

[Christina]

Absolutely.

[Kim]

About where you're going. So I'm just. That's interesting. Okay.

[Christina]

Okay. Let's move on.

[Kim]

All right, Moving on. We have the Reaper attack. So, which was already happening in the part Kim was discussing. But the argument that they're having gets interrupted by Gerald because he needs help setting off this blast of sorts. I don't really understand it. It wasn't that well described. I mean, but it was something that set off to block and turn off the electrical grid. So Emmaline is tiny enough to squeeze into the space and set it off, and so she helps Gerald. And I think she just wanted to get away from Halloween and escape from him. Sure. The blast is successful. Emmeline is picked up by Philip and brought to Colin's home. And things happen there. This is where we have the Gregory and Nora breakup. It's so sad and depressing.

[Christina]

Yeah, it is.

[Kim]

But anyways, before we move on, this is one more area where Emmaline is confronted by a betrayal from Hal. And it's when she's getting ready for this ball that the Elim have called for, and she's within the degrading process with the starlings. And Emmalin is talking about Hal, and Violet says. Wasn't he the one behind the dress? What? My voice trembled. The blue dress. Violet stared at me, her eyes slits. Yes. He brought it to level the playing field, then played the hero, apparently. And it says Emmeline's, like, anger winked out. It had been a game all along. Oh, and she remembers the comment that Nora makes earlier in the book that in order for the blue dress, like, whoever made this had to have known her measurements.

[Christina]

Okay, see, this is interesting to me, rereading this back. I mean, so we're just taking Violet's word for it.

[Kim]

We are.

[Christina]

That is how.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Christina]

And if it was Hal along, why wouldn't they have told her that earlier?

[Kim]

I don't know if she's used his name.

[Christina]

Oh.

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Before.

[Christina]

Got it. Maybe you're Right. I do kind of remember them being like, wait, Hal is who you're talking about?

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

So I just find it interesting, though, that we are just taking Virtual Violet's.

[Kim]

We are.

[Christina]

Word for it. Before, they had never said who. Like, oh, a man and Blue dropped it off.

[Kim]

Or, like, because they're talking about the Reaper. And Emily says, the reaper wasn't at the attacks today at the supplement building. And they're like, yes, he was. He would never not be there. And she goes, no, because he was with me. And they say he would never abandon the cause for a woman.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And then she's thinking about. And she goes, well, he was hurt. And then they said, no, that's not true. That was a lie that they told to make everyone think he was hurt. Which is interesting because Hal was hurt.

[Christina]

He definitely was. That's interesting.

[Kim]

There's all these little, like, things, red herrings and falsehoods and things that are planted. You know, we're gonna get to the epilogue and who the reaper is or who we suspect or think or whatever. But it's interesting. And you're right. We are taking Violet's word to this. Like, that's us trusting Violet. But she could be playing with Emily, right?

[Christina]

Cause I do feel like they've been playing with her a little bit. Whenever they get upset with her, I do feel like they. Sometimes they're not friends.

[Orderly Meds Advertiser]

Friends.

[Christina]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Kim]

They have their own agenda.

[Christina]

Exactly. I'm not saying she's lying. I'm just saying that I don't fully just blindly believe everything that they are

[Kim]

saying because they're fighting for themselves.

[Christina]

Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

[Kim]

I mean, I was suspicious of why he was there all along. So, like, I. I kind of go back to, like, why did he know to be at the pod in the rain and catch her and all of those things. Like, that was suspicious to me.

[Christina]

Why was he there the day that she was meeting Colin? Like, why did he show up in her room?

[Kim]

The thing you said earlier triggered a theory, so I can't wait to talk about it.

[Christina]

Interesting. Okay.

[Kim]

Okay. Okay. So that brings us to the final ball, right? She leaves the degrading process. She is completely shut down emotionally. She's just kind of really hit rock bottom. The rebels have successfully shut down the grid. And so that's why the Ilim have called for this big ball and all elites. It's mandatory attendance. And it's a setup, though, because they've captured. Or the Elm thinks that they've captured the reaper. Who's Hal at this point.

[Christina]

Yes.

[Kim]

And Colin and Emmeline are dancing. It's very chaotic. They're switching partners. She's in this sequin dress. Which listeners, if you've ever worn one of those sequins dresses or shirts. Oh, they are so itchy. I can remember costumes I've had to wear for, like, theater and dance and ballet. Like, the sequins and how itchy they are. And I feel like it was a visceral reaction. And then you have collar Colin, making it worse.

[Christina]

He is gripping, squeezing her.

[Kim]

And it's like the sequins already. No matter what fabric you have between yourself in the sequence, it, like, hurts your arms, it itches your body.

[Christina]

Yes.

[Kim]

He's gripping her so tightly that she's like, ow, this is hurting. Which.

[Christina]

Yeah, I don't like that.

[Kim]

Don't love that, Colin.

[Christina]

No.

[Kim]

You need to loosen that grip.

[Christina]

Yeah. She says, the crystals. It hurts.

[Kim]

So it's crystal. Sorry I said sequins. Same thing.

[Christina]

The beading on her dress. She said, the crystals, it hurts. And she arches her back to, like, loosen the pressure from his hand. Because his hand's, like, around her back.

[Kim]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christina]

And he leans in and he's like, I can't save you now. And I was like, okay, loosen your hand, good sir.

[Kim]

Colin loves a drama moment.

[Christina]

Let me tell you, he loves the drama. This scene, I was so well written. I was stressed the fuck out. I felt like I couldn't breathe. She's whirling to William. She's whirling to Gregor.

[Kim]

It was so well done.

[Christina]

She's whirling back to Colin. He's whispering in her ear. He's grabbing like.

[Kim]

She's like, gregory. Gregory's like, what's wrong, sister? And she's like, he knows, he knows.

[Christina]

And then she gets whipped away. He's like, meet me after. And she's whipped away to Colin. And I was like, oh, my God.

[Kim]

I was, like, breathing heavily. I was. I felt like I'm sweating with her. And then you've got Colin gripping her hard, and you're just like, get me out of this dress. This corset. She's not wearing corset, but that feeling. Because, listeners, we've worn so many corsets. I have them when I was in Pride and Prejudice.

[Christina]

That's so funny. I never have, but.

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[Kim]

Hey everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

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[Kim]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

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[Kim]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Anyway, so Colin and her are. He's whipping her on the dance floor and in between the partner switching, he's essentially telling her, like, I know you have to pretend. You have to act like my spy. Cause in the beginning, earlier throughout the book, he's saying like, listen, we'll tell them that you're my spy. Cause she got caught in like a weird situation and he's like, I lied. So now you're saying that you're my spy for the illum. And so he says, now you have to act. And then he says, the last thing he says, oh my God, is act Moonlight.

[Christina]

I gasped when I read this. I was like, oh fuck. What? Like, he knows about Hal.

[Kim]

So not only does he know about Hal, so he knows that she's working for the rebel group. So does my thought here is I want to know what you think. Because in this moment he seems panicked and angry because he's like, again, that like we talked about, I can't protect you now. You didn't listen. And he says, you have to act. Act Moonlight. And I'm like, does he think that Tabitha doesn't know the truth? That she's a rebel? And then he doesn't realize it until later because he like, why else Would he say act? I mean, if he thinks Tabitha knows that she's a rebel, then he would be like, well, you're dead.

[Christina]

I think Tabitha kept that from him.

[Kim]

Yeah, I think so, too.

[Christina]

I don't think she told Colin that she was aware that Emmaline was going and meeting with the rebels.

[Kim]

So I think he still thinks he can save her.

[Christina]

Yeah. But I think the moonlight is definitely a dig to be like, oh, and yeah, I know about Hal.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

Because there's no other reason for him to say Moonlight. Moonlight is what Hal used to call.

[Kim]

Your jealousy card is showing.

[Christina]

It's showing. And we could. We could go back and forth on, like, whether he's angry because of that's his mate, and that's going to look bad on him as a member of the Elim. Sure. For his mate to be stepping out like that. Or if he is secretly personally jealous. And he's like. And he's like, damn it. But that was written very well because I feel like that was such a, like, gasp moment of him being like, act, Moonlight. And you're like, that's it.

[Kim]

It whips away.

[Christina]

Chapter ends.

[Kim]

Chapter ends, and we move on. And you're just like. And it's not his pov.

[Christina]

I know. I need his pov.

[Kim]

I would love to get a POV of like him in this book.

[Christina]

Oh, yeah.

[Kim]

You know, Anyways. All right, so, Kim, take us through this, the next part.

[Christina]

Okay. Hal is captured. Oh, guys. Okay, we're at the ball. Tabitha turns this into a full spectacle. Hal is dragged in in front of everyone, visibly beaten and bruised. And we learn that they have reinserted his chip on his arm, the very one that he had cut out years ago. And they publicly present him as the Reaper. Okay. And this is obviously sending a big message. But what makes this even more brutal is how they weaponize Emmaline in the process. Tabitha thanks her publicly. Tabitha claims that it was Emmeline's quote, unquote spying that led to Hal's capture, effectively positioning Emmeline as the reason that Hal is there.

[Kim]

Tricky, tricky.

[Christina]

And it's so deeply manipulative because it puts Emma in this impossible situation. She's horrified. She's like, literally. Colin is, like, holding her up. She's like, my leg are giving out on me. She can't breathe. She feels like she's gonna pass out. Now Tabitha is saying, like, you're the reason that he's here. We're tying this to you. And she basically says when he is eliminated, it will be because of her. She announces that to the whole party. And Tabatha knows exactly what she's doing?

[Kim]

100%. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Which we get canon of that later.

[Christina]

Yes. And she doubles down on this and says, we grant Emmeline full elite status effective immediately.

[Kim]

Which has never been been done, I don't think.

[Christina]

Which has never been done. And it's a reward, but it's also a trap because now she has Emma deeply embedded within this system. And Tabitha has publicly aligned Emmaline against the rebels. So it isolates Emmaline. All the rebels are like, what the fuck? But it also controls Emeline and it forces her into a role that she didn't choose. And I think Colin. I don't think he was privy to any the. Of. Of this beforehand.

[Kim]

Oh, no, I don't think so.

[Christina]

He's shaking.

[Kim]

Yeah. Because we see that in the pod.

[Christina]

Yes. She's like, colin, I want to meet with Emma separately. Like, take her somewhere else.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

And he tries to warn Emmaline. And Emily's like, I don't care. And he says, she will make you care. It is your life we are talking about. Not just your life, but the lives of those you care about. They will know about all of them. They will destroy them to destroy you. I have watched them do it, Emmaline. Oh, that's what I was talking about earlier. That feels very personal. It feels like firsthand knowledge. Has he seen this happen before? Is he speaking about his parents?

[Kim]

Parents, I know.

[Christina]

So speaking of, like, we talked about this, like, where are his parents? They're spoken about in the past tense, but what do we always say, Anna,

[Kim]

show me the body.

[Christina]

Show me the body.

[Kim]

Show me the body.

[Christina]

So until then, I don't know that they're dead. We theorize. Maybe they're being held as, like, leverage somewhere against Colin.

[Kim]

It would make so much sense if there is something that the Elam is

[Christina]

holding over Colin like a bargaining chip to ensure.

[Kim]

Yeah. Nora says, what is Colin? Colin's breaking point? We have, like, we'll find that out.

[Christina]

Could that be his parents?

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

I also just want to say that I really appreciate that this is different than a fantasy where Colin does not have magic. He's not a king, he's not a prince, he's not royalty. His influence is real, but it's very limited. And I feel like that limitation creates actual stakes. There are consequences, there are risks. And I just have to say, sorry, but looking at you, Brimstone, it is so refreshing to read a book where there are actual stakes and things just. Just aren't magically Fixed.

[Kim]

It makes the read so much more impactful and emotional. And, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily. It's all enjoyable because you're, like, scared and nervous for the lead characters, but his reaction then feels, like, appropriate because he's like, I literally can't do anything. Yeah, like, my hands.

[Christina]

His hands are tied. Yes, absolutely.

[Kim]

Because it's not just you. Which is interesting, because will Emeline eventually become that point that he literally will sacrifice everyone else for? Because right now. Well, she's not about to die. There's a difference. Her life is. She's fine. She's fine. But I think it scares him. I think he is scared of his own reaction.

[Christina]

Oh, totally. I bet. Okay, Anna, let's do a little tea time with Tabatha.

[Kim]

Tea time with Tabitha. Y', all, listen, I know that in this dystopian world there are a lot of book burnings. So, of course, sweet Emmaline has not been able to read any of these fantasy books that we read, but girl, girlfriend, girl, we do not drink the fairy wine.

[Christina]

Rule number one, when the enemy offers

[Kim]

you a cup, you do not drinketh.

[Christina]

You pretend.

[Kim]

You pretend. I feel like listeners always think, like, fairy wine is literal. No, fairy wine just means any beverage.

[Christina]

Any beverage. Any sort of illicit substance. It could be.

[Kim]

It's a blanket that will alter your brain chemistry.

[Christina]

Absolutely.

[Kim]

Just don't drink it.

[Christina]

Don't do it.

[Kim]

Don't do it. Friends, we know how it ends. So turns out Tabitha has been playing her own game. Game. And she does believe, you know, she has the reaper, AKA Hal, or that's what we're supposed to believe. And she tells Emmaline that she is going to play a game of her own now, too. Quote, the game is simple. Who loves whom more? The winner lives and the loser dies. Hate this, referring to Emmeline and Hal. So essentially, I will use Hal. I will try and gain information from Hal, and if he doesn't give it to me, I kill you. And if you don't do my bidding, I kill Hal. So I win either way.

[Christina]

Oh, it's terrible.

[Kim]

It's awful. So the other little interesting thing that we learn here is that Tabitha has been holding a trial for Colin because a part of the mating phase or courting process is usually an elite mate will hold a trial, which we don't really get into because Colin says, I'm not doing that for Emmaline. And so Tabitha, I think, was a little bit put out by this, and so she's like. So I decided to have a trial for Colin myself.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And she says, quote, you are creating the most splendid ILU member, eradicating the little humanity, hope and kindness he had left, leaving him capable of capturing his true power and strength. The suggestions he gave us last night, they were quite creative.

[Christina]

Okay, what do you think this means? Do you think this means, like, torturing Hal? Like, giving suggestions on how to. Because he's the enforcer.

[Kim]

I don't love that.

[Christina]

I don't love that, Colin. He's giving. He's giving Tabitha ideas on how to torture Hal because she has blood all over her. She's like, oh, I forgot how they did that.

[Kim]

I know. Or creative ways of catching, capturing people. Or, you know, like. Because we do find out in this scene that Tabitha uses Emmaline as bait. And that is what got Hal to the ball, is that she let a little story and, like, whispers that she was gonna eliminate Emmeline and Hal came to rescue her, and then she ends up capturing Hal.

[Christina]

Yes. Oh, and I hate this next part so much.

[Kim]

So she says, also a part of that was not just to capture. Capture the Reaper. Which is interesting that she thought that whoever came to rescue her would be the Reaper. Like, why? Like, what made her think.

[Christina]

Because she knows that Emmaline was working with the rebels and the Reaper is the head of the rebels.

[Kim]

Yeah, I know. I just was like, what makes Emily Emeline just so pretty? The Reaper would come.

[Christina]

She's the special chosen one, Anna, obviously.

[Kim]

I know, but I'm just like, why would the Reaper come?

[Christina]

Because she thinks it's how she does. She knows more about them than.

[Kim]

Oh, she knows more than we do.

[Christina]

Totally.

[Kim]

Okay, so another person, part of this plan was by getting the Reaper howl up into the clouds to the Elite Ball, she said. Also at the same time is when. This is when the majors all come out to do their major, like, defect work, like janitors. And all of the things that come out at night to, like, clean the city and all of the minor defects go to sleep and are locked in their rooms. Because, remember, she. Emily would get locked in her room every night, right? And she goes, so while everyone was out, we went in and stole all the children from the majors.

[Christina]

All of the majors offspring in the underground.

[Kim]

And this is what she says. Offspring, you see, offspring are such a glorious way to cause fear. Almost all mothers will do anything you ask. When you hold their offspring, you control the youth. You control them all. We would only hurt them if the majors don't fall in line. And they will. They always do. Wow.

[Christina]

I hate this so much.

[Kim]

How many Times have they done this. They always do.

[Christina]

Right, for her to say. They always do.

[Kim]

I'm thinking about Hal. Taking Hal out of the Underground, locking him up. Did his parents. Were they tortured? Did they give over information before they died? It makes me.

[Christina]

Yeah, that makes me ill. And Emmeline does say, don't hurt them. Like, take. Keep me instead. And she's like, oh, we're not gonna hurt them.

[Kim]

Yeah. She's like, we wouldn't hurt them.

[Christina]

We're just gonna use them.

[Kim]

That would defeat the purpose of taking them.

[Christina]

Well, that's true, but I do just have to say, she also did note that when they captured Halloween, he tried to be like, I don't know who Emeline is. She's just another minor. And then Tabitha goes, oh, okay, well, let's pull her chip and eliminate her. And she's like, oh, you should have seen how he begged. It was pathetic. How, like, quickly he lost it and was, like, begging and pleading.

[Kim]

He does care.

[Christina]

I do think he really does care about her because he was trying to protect her and be like, I don't know who she is. Like, she's just some minor.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

And Tabitha's like, oh, bet. Okay, bet. Pull the chip and eliminate her. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, exactly. Mistake.

[Kim]

Oh, this is so interesting. So the book ends with Emily being drugged because she drank the fairy wine. She drank the fairy wine, and then she's dragged out to a pod. And it is interesting. Or I don't know if this is interesting. I could be Gregory. I read it as, like. Could it be a rebel group as well? But she recognizes the voice that's speaking to her in the pod, but she can't place it. I feel like this happens a lot to her.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And the line is, fuck. Emmeline, can you hear me? Hang in there, Emeline. We have you. It'll be okay. I have you.

[Christina]

And we don't think it's Colin.

[Kim]

Oh, no, I don't think it's Colin because I don't think Colin speaks this way to me. It's like, is it Gregory?

[Christina]

I thought it was either Gregory or one of the.

[Kim]

Or one of the rebels.

[Christina]

Yeah, that's posing as an elite soldier.

[Kim]

Maybe the elite soldier down on the ground earlier in the book. She recognizes the voice. We've suspected it was Hal.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

Could it have been Barrett or Gerald? I don't know. And then there's Is the voice of the other soldier, elite soldier, right before she goes into tea time with Tabitha and He has a voice that she recognizes. He's really tall.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

So, like, I feel like there are rebel forces positioned within. Yeah, yeah, I think there are.

[Christina]

I agree. Okay, let's run through quickly some theories about the epilogue. The epilogue is Anna has a theory, and then I also just. We went and reread it, and I have some very interesting things that I want to break.

[Kim]

Okay. So this is not my theory. This is from Reddit, and I wanted to discuss it because there are so many people who believe this, which is kind of funny.

[Christina]

That's so funny.

[Kim]

I never even thought about this. So people are speculating that I read it and Kim read it, and we were like, well, this is Hal.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

The epilogue is obviously Hal to us. He's the one that's captured. But Reddit, I was surprised by the amount of people who believe it's Colin. And it is interesting because if you, like, there are. There's multiple ways you can read it because it is an unknown.

[Christina]

I agree.

[Kim]

And so, like, years, I think, know you. You can make a case for either. You can make a case for anything if you argue it enough. But I'm always of the mindset of, like, whatever's the easiest thing to explain is usually the answer. So what's the saying?

[Christina]

It's called Occam's Razor.

[Kim]

Thank you. I was like, I can never remember what it is.

[Christina]

It's Occam's Razor. It's like, in true crime, it's a very common thing of, like, y' all are doing too much. Like, it's Occam's Razor. Whatever is the most, like, straightforward, easy to believe, requires the least amount of, like, outside circumstances happening. That is the most likely.

[Kim]

I always think of true crime when I think of that. Yes. So that I didn't realize. I knew you would know what it is. Of course, my little true crime girly. Yes. So anyways, I went and reread it a few times, and I was like, okay, can I talk myself into this? Like, how can we argue this? And I do think that there is an interesting point. Like, Colin is the only one that's referred to as wearing a mask multiple times throughout the book. And he has his mask on. Emmaline's the one who notices it. And there's a quote in here. It says, my love for her clung to me, as stubborn as she was, even if she would never return it. The mask it fought against as the very thing that made her hate me. Then he talks about, like, settling the mask. I don't know why Colin would be in this situation.

[Christina]

No, I don't. You know, I don't think there was any reason to jail or, like, hold him in a cell with. With, like, cuffs on him, which.

[Kim]

And then the thing that people say is the cuffs are his cufflinks. He's coming from the ball. And I'm like, again, no, guys, he's

[Christina]

in a cell of some kind and he has. Yeah, so, okay, so I wouldn't read. Read this. Here's three lines that I think prove that it is Hal. Now, important to note, I think Hal is the reaper. But I will acknowledge that just because Tabitha thinks she has the reaper, AKA Hal, does not necessarily mean Hal is the reaper. He could be taking the fall for the. A real reaper that we don't know about or Tabitha doesn't know about yet. So in saying this, when I say Hal is the reaper, I just mean, like, Hal is who Tabitha currently has imprisoned as the Reaper.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Christina]

Okay, so this is the quote. Mismatched eyes flashed before mine. I was a captive from the first time I saw them. The first time Colin met Emmaline, actually both of their dates. She had her contact in.

[Kim]

She did.

[Christina]

And if he ever saw her without her contact, it was after they had spent time together multiple times. So this line wouldn't make sense if it was Colin, because the first time Hal saw Emmaline obviously didn't have. She hadn't even met with the starlings yet. It was before she even got her assignment with Colin. And so. So I was a captive from the first time I saw them. They met eyes when he showed up in her little work pod. It also says a jolt shot through my left arm. And that is where Hal's chip had been reinserted.

[Kim]

Yes.

[Christina]

I think he has his hands behind his back and he's, like, uncomfortable. So he's moving and like a jolt shoots through his left arm, which I think obviously is like, why would Colin's arm. Why would his arm be hurting?

[Kim]

Yeah. The only thing is, like, can they control it? And, like, send maybe whatever sparks through it. I'm like, why are we sending sparks?

[Christina]

So the last thing is. But my love for her clung to me, even if. If she would never return it. So I was like, you could take that as either Colin or Hal. And you read the second part about the mask. But since Hal was the one who betrayed her, this makes the most sense as Hal to me. Because even if she would never return it, you know, she hates me. I mean, Colin hasn't really given Emmaline any reason to, like, hate him. Well, she's upset, but also she knows, I think that she kind of got herself into this situation a little bit by not listening to him.

[Kim]

Yeah, I was thinking more of like watching the Elements and like, yes, true,

[Christina]

she is upset, she is mad.

[Kim]

But I still agree with you. I don't think so.

[Christina]

I think it makes the most sense for Hal to be the Reaper that is currently captured again. I think it would be really interesting if the actual Reaper was a woman.

[Kim]

I would love for it to be a woman. And let's chat about this for a second.

[Christina]

Let's do.

[Kim]

Because this line from Nora is fascinating to me. Her and Emeline are having a discussion about the Reaper. And Emmeline knows. Notes this. She says, nora, you never called the Reaper a man. She threaded her arm in mine as we left the office. Who says it has to be a man? Maybe a woman is tired of being a vessel, which. Okay, but hold on, there's more. So at first we kind of were like, what if Nora is the Reaper? And the more I think about it, the more I'm like, I'm not sure that's the case. Nora has been in too many places where the Reaper maybe was elsewhere or she's got her children. But that doesn't mean that Nora isn't involved because she is currently mated to William. He is in charge or works high up in the supplement building. True. That is a toss away comment.

[Christina]

Yes.

[Kim]

And then the page later, or the page right before it talks about the Reaper and the rebellion attacking the supplement building. And then later at the end, it's the supplements that are stolen from that building and then passed out to all of the major defects.

[Christina]

True.

[Kim]

So to me, I was like, maybe Nora does know something about the Reaper.

[Christina]

I think so.

[Kim]

And what if. So listeners, if you remember, there was this character that was Emmaline's friend and she disappeared. Her name was Alice. We don't ever meet her on paper, but she was constantly speaking out against the Academy and what they were learning. And she was very like, did not want to conform.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And then she disappeared one day.

[Christina]

That would be so interesting if Alice ended up being the Reaper.

[Kim]

I would love it in this book. Especially because women are the ones, like Nora says, they're oppressed. Maybe someone was tired of being a vessel.

[Christina]

Yes. I think it makes way more sense than a man being the Reaper. Like, the women are the one who are oppressed. The women are the one who have no rights. Like, they're the ones that it makes sense to rise up. And I would love for it to be Alice because, like, why else would you mention her? You know what I mean? Like, it was such a. I agree.

[Kim]

I've also really thought that Colin was the Reaper because I think it would be interesting to have a member of the illum and the elite and he's the one pulling the strings behind the scene. And like, Hal is taking the fall because they've been trained. If you ever caught, like, you don't break and all this, you know. Xyz. So how he's not confirming or denying in that epilogue, you know, if that's how, then he's not confirming or denying that he's the Reaper. He just like, like, you know, essentially, like. Sure, if that's what you want to believe.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

But I've kind of talked myself out of Colin being the Reaper, mainly because I feel like that betrayal if she gets close to Colin might be really hard to come back from.

[Christina]

Emmaline finding out that he's the Reaper.

[Kim]

If Colin's the Reaper, I think it sounds good on paper because, oh, he's actually not bad. He's a part of the rebel group, but the rebels want to destroy everyone. Or at least that's what Hal says. Oh, and Colin, going back to the point I made earlier, like, Colin and Nora, they don't seem to talk about the other groups that way.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And so I'm like, maybe it's not Colin. And I think Colin is trying to do something.

[Christina]

I agree.

[Kim]

But I think he's doing his own revolution.

[Christina]

I think so too.

[Kim]

And I think he's frustrated with the Reaper. Maybe he's like, you know what? I'll let the Reaper do his thing because it's causing havoc. It's a distraction.

[Christina]

Yeah, for sure.

[Kim]

And I can do my thing over here.

[Christina]

I think you're right.

[Kim]

I don't know. But then I think there's going to come to a head, you know, like they're all going to meet up and it could be an I'm Spartacus situation where there is like no real reaper. It's an idea and like everyone's a reaper. That's would be really hard to explain because somebody has to be calling the shots.

[Christina]

No, I think it is someone. Yeah. Whether that's Hal or he's taking the fall for somebody else to keep their identity a secret. Which would make sense if it was a woman.

[Kim]

Yes. Yeah.

[Christina]

But let's talk about the trajectory for book two. So I think think that Emmaline and Colin are going to have forced proximity. She's going to move in with him for the next phase of their cohabitation mating process. Hal's going to be imprisoned. Her and Colin are going to be forced to spend a lot of time together. I think we're going to see a different side of Colin. I'm hoping. I'm hoping that we get his pov. I need his pov. I know I need it.

[Kim]

If we don't get it, I need more conversations. Like they had when he pulled her out of the tub. They. At the end of the book, and they're like, his mask is off.

[Christina]

Yes.

[Kim]

And he's, like, just being Colin. Like the Colin that nobody else sees.

[Christina]

Absolutely agreed.

[Kim]

So I need that at least, because I do think when he's being straightforward with her, I think he's being honest 100%. So I agree. I think we're gonna have forced proximity. I think there's gonna be, like, how do we save Hal again? Maybe a sacrifice or something somewhere.

[Christina]

Yeah.

[Kim]

And then I think the other thing we've talked about is, like, does Colin have a love child? I don't know. There could be that. I feel like.

[Christina]

I don't know.

[Kim]

I feel like we have too many people with children.

[Christina]

I agree there's something that happened in his past, but I just don't. I don't know that it's a child.

[Kim]

I think the people who might have a love child is Gregory and Nora.

[Christina]

Oh, yeah.

[Kim]

Because when they have the breakup, as I call it, Gregory says, I won't come back. They'll be safe. Meaning her children.

[Christina]

Her children.

[Kim]

And then she says, gregory, there's a. And it cuts off. And he says, I know love. And he walks away. Oh, like there's another. Did she have a child, like, in secret?

[Christina]

Or, like, is she pregnant right now with Gregory's child? Oh, like, I think she might be pregnant right now.

[Kim]

Oh, maybe. Yeah.

[Christina]

And, like, he knows somehow, and she's gonna try to pass it off as, like, William's child, which I don't even know if you can do that in this world.

[Kim]

Yes. Like, how do you pass that off? I don't think any of her current children are Gregory's.

[Christina]

No, I don't think.

[Kim]

Well, the ones that she mentions, James, Arabella, Eliana. I don't think they are his children. Because in this world, everything is genetically tested. You would know who the birth father is. But if there's a love child out there or she's pregnant with a love child, like, she. That's gonna be a problem because she's

[Christina]

in a mating contract with William. So ostensibly, they are supposed to be sleeping together, maybe depending on where they are in their phase. So, like, she could be, you know what I mean? Like, also we know she's sleeping with Gregory. So, like, could her parents, if they

[Kim]

like are alive, do you think? If she had a love child with Gregory, like, what if she sent her parents down to the underworld to care for her love child? I don't know. Like, that's where they are. Like, she, her, like she can't. I don't know. That's like very far fetched. But anyways, so I think the only other big thing that has sort of already been like hinted at is, you know, it's kind of divergent esque. But I think we're going to see a lot of the minors who are downgraded down to majors or any child who's born, who's a minor or major. I don't actually think that they're all genetically imperfect. I mean, we are all in this world, like the current world that we live in. Like, nobody is genetically perfect. Right. That's a facade that the illum has created. And so I think we're going to see that be more prevalent in the next book as we move along that, like, these genetic pools are bullshit.

[Christina]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Kim]

And it's all about power and control. And I think, like Tabitha hints at Emeline actually failed a lot of her aptitude tests because she showed independent thought.

[Christina]

Right.

[Kim]

And I think that the people who are elites show more conformity and that's, I think, what makes Colin dangerous. Because I think Tabitha is realizing she's losing control of Colin, hence why she did this trial to try and rope him back in.

[Christina]

Yes, I completely agree.

[Kim]

So I'm really interested to see where we go with that.

[Christina]

Yeah, I'm worried that she's like, you've played into my hand perfectly. And now he's gonna lose any sense of hope and kindness in anything. And I'm like, like, no, Colin, I know. We're already teetering on that line. Yeah, we're teetering on a very mean, cold line. I need you over the other way. I don't need you becoming like just this mean, terrible person. But yes.

[Kim]

So anyways, I'm really excited for the next book.

[Christina]

Oh my gosh, I am so excited. We loved this book so much. I felt like it was an incredible ride and journey and everything was done so well. The pacing was amazing. The messages and the themes were incredible. I enjoy the love triangle as much as one can enjoy, you know, the

[Kim]

back and the fourth.

[Christina]

Yeah, right.

[Kim]

Right. Right.

[Christina]

But I'm so excited to see what plays out. We're so excited to pick up Beneath. I don't know when we're gonna be able to. I know, Pick it up or in what capacity, but I desperately want to read it.

[Kim]

I desperately too. And if you all have read it. Yes, no spoilers. But tell us in the comments if you loved it or not.

[Christina]

Yes. Tell us what you thought of it. And we are just really excited for what's to come in this world.

[Kim]

Yeah. All right, listeners, with that, cheer for happy Reading Reading.

[Christina]

We'll see you next time.

[Kim]

Bye Bye.

[Christina]

Well friends, that wraps up another episode of Flights of Fantasy Podcast. Don't forget to join our book club community on Instagram and TikTok at flights of Fantasy Podcast where you can share your thoughts, theories and favorite moments with us and fellow listeners. We'd love to hear from you. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps us spread the magic of romantasy to even more book lovers. Until next time, keep dreaming, keep reading, and remember, every good story deserves to take flight.

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