RE-RELEASE - Bill Simmons

Summary

Fly on the Wall with Dana Carvey and David Spade

RE-RELEASE - Bill Simmons (June 3, 2026)

Main Theme

In this episode, Dana Carvey and David Spade sit down with Bill Simmons, a prolific sportswriter, media innovator, and passionate SNL superfan. The conversation is a deep dive into Saturday Night Live—its history, standout sketches, changes over the decades, the nuances of comedy, and insights from three decades of pop culture. Simmons brings an encyclopedic knowledge of SNL, sparking discussions about comedy evolution, cast dynamics, the intersection of celebrity and satire, and the future of live television. The trio also riffs on sports, podcasting, nostalgia, and the shifting landscape of what’s considered "okay" in comedy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Bill Simmons’ SNL Fandom and Background

• Bill Simmons is introduced as possibly the "biggest fan of SNL ever." (00:41)

  • Simmons explains his lifelong attachment to SNL, starting as a child in the '70s and following every era through adulthood.
  • "[SNL] is really just the perfect pop culture barometer." (08:55, Simmons)

• Simmons on Almost Joining the Business:

  • Describes submitting an unsolicited writing packet in the ‘90s, hoping for a break into comedy writing. (09:49–11:16)
  • "We sent it in ... now I learned later, there’s no way anybody even saw it ..." (10:40, Simmons)

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Memorable SNL Hosts, Sketches & Moments

• Athlete Hosts:

  • Discussion of the best athlete SNL hosts—Joe Montana, The Rock (Dwayne Johnson), Michael Jordan, Peyton Manning, Charles Barkley.
  • “There was a charm when athletes come on ... a kind of stilted charm.” (06:09, Carvey)

• Michael Jordan’s Episode:

  • The behind-the-scenes experience of cast members when working with megastars like MJ.
  • “‘Just look at the card. Don’t worry about it. Christopher Walken does it,’” (07:06, Carvey to Jordan)

• Evolution of Celebrity Cameos:

  • Simmons critiques later SNL seasons for prioritizing cameos over cast-led satire—highlighting the shift during the Sarah Palin/Tina Fey era.
  • “When they had her [Palin] on with Tina ... that’s when something shifted and the celebrity cameo became as important for the show as making fun of these people.” (27:18, Simmons)

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The Changing Nature of Impressions

• From Abstract to Accurate:

  • Earlier eras of SNL focused on exaggerating a single trait (e.g., Carvey’s Bush Sr.), while newer impersonations trend toward accuracy.
  • “Now I feel like when they’re doing the impressions, it’s more like a dead-on impersonation ... but back then, it was like, I’m going to take this one piece and go crazy with it.” (14:52, Simmons)

• Notable Quotes:

  • “The only one who understands Biden is Hunter.” (15:01, Carvey on impression abstraction)
  • “Phil Hartman … did that with the Sinatra group, too ... his version of Sinatra ... was a little bit rowdier, a little angrier. And I thought that was funnier.” (16:19, Simmons)

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SNL’s Golden Eras and Challenges

• Cast Chemistry and Size:

  • Bill’s “basketball theory”: SNL is best with 8-9 core players; modern large casts dilute talent and screen time. (48:46–50:00, Simmons)
  • “If you’re playing 14 players ... the team's gonna suck. But if you figure out who your seven or eight are and ride those ... the team’s gonna be really good.” (48:58, Simmons)

• Survival Through Transitions:

  • Discusses key “make or break” moments in SNL history—the crucial reinventions after the original cast, Eddie Murphy, the arrival of Carvey/Hartman, and the Will Ferrell era. (45:11–48:33)
  • “That was the second peak of the show.” (47:10, Simmons)

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Comedy, Cancel Culture, and How Far Is Too Far?

• Hands-On Examples:

  • Discuss sketches that wouldn’t be possible today (“Comedy Killers,” “The Italian Restaurant” with Kirstie Alley, the Sharon Stone airport security sketch). (39:58–41:23)
  • “Now people would just get mad. I feel like.” (35:17, Simmons on Comedy Killers and present-day reactions)

• Generational Shifts:

  • The rise of comedians loved for pushing boundaries (Shane Gillis, Bill Burr, Theo Von) reflects a generational swing back toward edgier comedy. (35:45–36:54)
  • “They went from the super pampered, super ... scared to do anything. And the new people are like, ‘Hey, let’s just get back to laughing and doing jokes.’” (36:13, Spade)

• Blazing Saddles and Social Critique:

  • Carvey and Simmons discuss how movies like Blazing Saddles, Airplane, and Animal House couldn’t be made today. (36:56–38:11, 89:55–90:31)
  • “I knew Richard Pryor … was not racist, and neither was Mel Brooks. They were satirizing … the movie is hysterical—but yeah, you can’t do it [now].” (37:07, Carvey)

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Behind-the-Scenes SNL, Podcasting & Nostalgia

• The Unique Experience of Live TV:

  • SNL as "pop culture Mad Libs"—only show where one can see ultra-famous people in real time at cultural peaks.
  • “There’s no other pop culture artifact like that.” (42:50, Simmons)

• Social Media’s Impact on SNL:

  • Now, any SNL sketch can be instantly shared, dissected, and debated—accelerating both virality and backlash. (33:08–33:38, Simmons)
  • “If you have some comment in Hollywood Minute ... then it turns into a thing ... it turns into a four days [news cycle].” (33:23, Simmons)

• Podcasting: Who Should Actually Do It?

  • Bill warns not everyone is cut out for podcasting; authenticity and genuine host chemistry matter more than format or gimmicks. (29:54–31:03)
    • “Not everybody should have a podcast. Like, it's okay. It’s not like a driver’s license.” (29:54, Simmons)

• Roots of “Hollywood Minute” as Proto-Twitter:

  • “Did Hollywood Minute create Twitter?” (32:06, Simmons)
    • Spade and Simmons relate how the snarky, one-liner photo bits were a precursor to social media hot takes.

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SNL Cast MVPs & Legacy Debates

• Female Cast Evolution:

  • Discussion on how SNL’s women cast members came to dominate—Kenan Thompson names the last 20 years as the women’s era, building on Jan Hooks, Gilda Radner, Nora Dunn, etc. (53:29–54:13)
  • “To me, [Jan Hooks] is in the running of one of the best female cast members in the history of the show.” (54:21, Simmons)

• Debates: Greatest Cast Members & Update Anchors

  • Bill’s non-original cast Mount Rushmore: Hartman, Eddie Murphy, Will Ferrell, Dana Carvey, with honorable mention to Gilda Radner and Maya Rudolph. (55:48–57:30)
  • Weekend Update:
    • Chevy Chase (“just a good vibe”),
    • Dennis Miller (“such a brilliant joke writer and machine”),
    • Michael Che & Colin Jost (“great chemistry … getting even better and looser”),
    • Norm Macdonald (“my favorite, uncancelable, totally original—‘Note to self’ and OJ jokes”). (58:18–60:13)

• Favorite Types of Players:

  • Standout “supporting” cast—Chris Farley as the classic scene-stealer, Adam Sandler’s Update bits, Kate McKinnon, Bill Hader, Maya Rudolph, etc. (65:11–66:23)

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The Future of SNL & Who Takes Over

• SNL’s 50th, the Lauren Succession Question:

  • Likely candidates for succession: Tina Fey, Seth Meyers; incoming showrunner must have “real DNA.”
  • The danger of the show shifting to an over-reliance on celebrities vs. returning to its cast-driven origins. (66:43–69:34)
  • “The new iteration ... I don’t feel like [it] should be celebrity dependent. I would go back to what the roots of the show were.” (69:35, Simmons)

• Cast Discovery as the “Secret Sauce”:

  • Carvey argues that watching unknown talents become stars in real time remains magical for the audience. (70:11–70:41)

• Dangers & Missed Edges of “Safe Live”:

  • If SNL is “safe," is there still a point to going live?
  • “Why is the show live ... if there’s no danger that comes with being live?” (71:03, Simmons)

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Sports Sidebar: Is Pro Sports Rigged?

• Rigging Theories:

  • Simmons and Spade discuss NBA lottery conspiracy theories, ref manipulations, how penalty calls can subtly nudge outcomes, and the intersection of sports and entertainment. (73:36–78:46)
  • “Could the Super Bowl have been scripted because Kansas City won and ... Taylor Swift and her boyfriend kissed?” (74:04, Simmons & Spade riff)

• NFL Overtime, Refereeing, and Betting:

  • “Every time there’s a great play, you’re looking for a flag.” (77:44, Carvey)
  • The impact of gambling, referee tendencies, and how fans perceive the fairness of the game. (78:05–78:46)

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Movie & Pop Culture Rewatchables

• Most Rewatchable Movies:

  • Bill on how "Heat" inspired his Rewatchables podcast; classic staples include Godfather I/II, Boogie Nights, Shawshank, Pulp Fiction, Tommy Boy. (87:04–88:45)
  • “Fat guy in a little coat ... you can indoctrinate that [kids].” (88:41, Simmons)

• Could Certain Movies Be Made Now?

  • Airplane, Animal House, Revenge of the Nerds, Porky's—all considered highly canceled by modern standards. (89:55–90:31)
  • “A really silly movie right now ... would be a nice look” given the country’s mood. (90:31, Carvey)

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On SNL Fandom:
  • “I'm top, top, top percentile SNL fan that has ever been on the show, including all the people who've been on it. You're just not gonna—…I’m gonna have an answer for every question you have.” (08:19, Bill Simmons)
• On the podcasting boom:
  • “Not everybody should have a podcast. It's okay. It's not like a driver’s license.” (29:54, Simmons)
• On Hollywood Minute influencing social media:
  • “Did Hollywood Minute create Twitter?” (32:06, Simmons)
• On cast bloat:
  • “When the show's always humming, it's always smaller cast members.” (48:57, Simmons)
• On women of SNL:
  • "Kenan Thompson...said, the women of the last 20 years. And I do think...starting with ... Sherry o' Terry through Tina ... Maya and ... Amy...Kristen and then. And then Kate." (53:29, Carvey)
• On comedy censorship:
  • “Now people would just get mad. I feel like.” (35:17, Simmons on classic “edgy” sketches)
• On live TV and danger:
  • “Why is the show live at this point if there’s no danger that comes with being live?” (71:03, Simmons)
• On favorite Weekend Update anchors:
  • “I thought Dennis was the best, but ... Norm was my favorite.” (61:18, Simmons)
• On the thrill of SNL backstage:
  • “It's a little bit like going back to your high school on a Sunday afternoon...that feeling.” (44:26, Carvey)
• On why classic bits resonated:
  • “The magic elixir is an unknown person being thrown out there.” (70:11, Carvey)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Bill Simmons’ SNL Origin Story: 08:55–13:47
• Athletes on SNL: 04:19–07:13
• Impressions: Past vs. Present: 14:30–16:19
• Weekend Update Anchors Deep Dive: 58:12–60:22
• Cast Dynamics & Basketball Analogy: 48:46–50:00
• Comedic Boundaries & Cancel Culture: 35:17–38:11
• Podcast Authenticity: 29:54–31:03
• The Future of SNL, Succession Theories: 66:43–69:50
• Sports Rigging & Betting: 73:36–79:53
• Most Rewatchable Movies: 87:04–88:45

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Tone and Language

The episode is fast-paced, affectionate, and irreverent—full of affectionate ribbing, digressions, personal anecdotes, and comedic asides. Spade and Carvey keep it loose but insightful, while Simmons offers the “encyclopedically obsessed fan” energy without pretension.

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For fans of SNL, media history, comedy’s evolution, and pop culture—this is a rich, nostalgic, and sharply observant episode that balances deep industry insight with banter and wit.

Transcript

[A]

David, what were you just saying?

[B]

I was talking about. Do you know William Simmons?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Billy, Billy, Billy, Billy Simmons. Yeah. He's the best. That guy's great.

[B]

Bill Simmons has his tentacles in a lot of things.

[A]

He's all over this space, you know, like when I say this space, you know what I'm talking about.

[B]

Yeah. Podcasting. He was king of the airwaves of sports. Regular airwaves. Now he's podcasting. Now he's all over. He's part of that Andy Kohler show. He has a lot of things going. He's got a whole atmosphere over there, if that's what they call it.

[A]

And what. What is that? What they call atmosphere?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Well, like a whole world over there. It's shaky. We'll get back to that. The thing you're going to enjoy about this podcast, if you're a Saturday Night Live fan, is this guy, Bill Simmons. He knows more about every single. Single sketch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That I've ever done and every episode. So that we do deep dive on that. He is maybe the biggest fan of the show ever. One of them, you know, so that's very interesting to get into all little.

[B]

I saw him at that Netflix brunch the other day.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

The other week. The other month. And super cool guy to just BS and with. And he also knows a ton about snl. So when he was on, I think maybe we've had him on twice, but he basically interviews us. He wants to know so much about the ins and outs and the behind the scenes that it's pretty fun to just lean back and kind of go back and forth with him.

[A]

Yeah. And he does really understand podcasting, and

[B]

he can tell that I'm an athlete, so he kind of likes that because he's a sports guy.

[A]

Yeah. He just tagged you right away. Right away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that don't come. That's not natural.

[B]

I used to tell him how when I used to lead off a lot, you know, when I was in baseball.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I run back to First I look at the picture, I go, what?

[A]

Well, did it ever throw. Did it ever throw in Little League baseball? The batter's up. And then the whole. The whole team starts going, hey, batta, batta, batta. Hey, batta, batta, batter. You think they could heckle something better than, yes, I'm a batter and I'm going to batter. Hey, batter, batter, batter.

[B]

Hey, batter B. Yeah, I have to say that. Do they still say that in the pros? I should have asked them.

[A]

No, I think sometimes they go, beat them, bust them. That's our custom. Yeah, that's our custom. New York. That was a real one from my.

[B]

You know what I. They. I saw a rod do. He goes, California oranges, Texas cactus. We play your team just for practice.

[A]

I know I am, but what are you? I'm rubber. Your glue. Whatever you say sticks to you.

[B]

I would be on second base going, but I can have. But I can have. Ba, ba, ba swing.

[A]

Should we save this for our regular podcast?

[B]

Let's bring out Bill Simmons.

[A]

We're wasting gold on an intro. Please enjoy Bill Simmons. And cut that part out.

[C]

Yeah. This is my setup. This is where I do my pod. So I got all my. All my stuff behind me, so it looks like I'm in this big. And then if you zoom out, it's just like, this little weird corner of stuff, and then nothing else looks like that in the room.

[B]

Fake busy corner.

[C]

Yeah. Fake busy corner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm in an abandoned motel near Bakersfield, and Dana was taken. I put do not Free Larson and room. God.

[C]

I'm a minimalist.

[B]

Good one.

[A]

Everyone knock and give me food. I'm a minimalist. What. What can I say?

[B]

God, no.

[A]

So should we.

[B]

So wait, I have to ask Bill first. There's no way. What did you have to do with 30 for 30? I just saw this.

[C]

I created it. I came up with the idea. That's the dude. And then for like, a year and a half, me and my friend Connor show, like, basically came up with every angle of it and got it sold.

[A]

That's in my notes. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I don't want to talk about me, though. I want to talk snl. We don't need to talk about.

[B]

No, you're boring. I understand.

[C]

I. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Everybody knows you. Okay. Top Best athlete. I'm trying to do a mashup of Bill Simmons, best athlete host on snl. Oh, wow, that's a tough one.

[C]

Does the Rock count?

[B]

What's the rock on?

[A]

He's an athlete. Well, he's a movie star, but, yeah.

[B]

No, he's an athlete.

[C]

The Rock was really good. I mean, he did the Barack Obama on it, which I thought was one of the better presidential sketches they did in the last 20 years.

[A]

Yes, that was funny. The Rock is good. Yeah. There's Peyton Manning back in my day. Joe Montana with Walter Payton.

[C]

Yeah, but, I mean, Montana was in one of the iconic sketches of the late 80s that the. I'm gonna go upstairs and masturbate. Which was, like, out of. Nobody could believe he did that back in the day. It was like, oh my God, Joe Montana said masturbate.

[A]

And you know what? Fun fact. Talk about how. Fun fact. Talk about how competitive Joe Montana is. He finishes the show and he landed that sketch which killed. And then he, he, he can't come out of his dressing room. Almost like a boxer. He feels, he feels he didn't do very well. And Joe, can you go talk to him? He just, he just can't come out, you know, funny.

[C]

Jesus. John Madden was good too. It was before your time, but he, he came in right as he was taken off from cbs and they built. It was during the Eddie era. Yeah, they built the whole show around him and he was pretty, he was pretty good with that. I want to say OJ Hosted in the first five years and thank God he didn't kill anybody.

[A]

Oh, he killed.

[C]

So he literally killed.

[A]

I had to say it. I know it's not funny, but I had to say it. Charles Barkley, during David's era, he was just missed him.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, he was tough. Hey, did Joe Montana have any problem with that joke, Dana?

[A]

No, I don't think so. I'll be up. His inner monologue was. Yeah, I'll be upstairs masturbating.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

There was a charm when athletes come on or non professional actors, there's a sort of kind of stilted charm to them. You know, I find that that's a big, big part of the show is having movie stars, non comedians try to do an hour and a half of a live sketch. It's a ridiculous task. It's a great reality show.

[C]

I think when MJ came on, that was about as in the running for about as famous as he ever was. That was really when he had ascended to the A plus plus list. And yeah, everybody was so interested to see how he would do. And he did really well. But it just felt like a moment

[A]

when he was on that changed 8H. Everybody was flipped out. So he was Michael Jordan at that time and he was. It's a real interesting part of being a cast member, being behind the slats with Michael Jordan. And we're about to go do the sketch and it's live and he's not in his element. He's kind of looking in his script. And I said, you know, just look at the card. Don't worry about it. Christopher Walken does it. Just look at the card if you have to.

[C]

Well, and they're so used to coming through in pressure that eventually you come out and the adrenaline is running and it's basically no different than if they have a big game or something like that. I was. When I, you know, when I got to know Seth Meyers and Hayter and those guys in the late 2000s, they popped on my pod. I was always so interested in the mechanics of the person coming on, who hosted, who fit in right away, what actor, actress, comedian, who just kind of got the show and could have been like a surrogate cast member versus somebody who came in and was just kind of their head spinning the whole week. And then certain people would come in and you guys that were on the show would be like, oh, this isn't easy. This person gets it. This guy, this guy or this girl could actually be on the show full time.

[A]

Well, I don't. I'd be curious what those guys said off the top of my head. Like, John Goodman was like a cat. He was just good at everything. Tom Hanks, of course.

[C]

Tom Hanks was a great one.

[A]

Yeah. Completely committed. By the way, I want to just for a second check your memory. What was the hit sketch kind of objectively for Michael Jordan's episode?

[C]

Wasn't it the Stuart Smalley.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

And then there was. There was a naked thing. I mean, I'm, I'm top, top, top percentile SNL fan that has ever been on the show, including all the people who've been on it. You're just not gonna. I grew up at the show. I was an only child. I remember every single season, everything that happened. I'm just, I'm gonna have an answer for every question you have.

[A]

I now, I now put you. I knew you were a fan and a sports fan, but now I put you in context. So now you're one of those people, which is great. There's not that many of them that are comprehensively dug into that show. So let's. Should we try to see if we can stump it?

[C]

Here's the thing. I told Spade this when we did a podcast. Like, I was born in 1969. That's literally the perfect year to grow up with the show. Because I was six when the, when the show premiered. I wasn't able to watch it till I was maybe 8 or 9. They started running the half hour kind of highlight shows on NBC. That would be like 9 o', clock, 9:30, whenever that was on. And that's how Belushi was my first guy. I'm like, who is this? I'm like eight. Like, this is. How does this person exist? Started watching those. They finally let me stay up late for the fifth season, my parents. And then I was all the way through Eddie when you came on. When. When Spade, like the height of the 90s and all that. Then Hartman. I mean, Farrell coming back and basically saving the show. And it felt like it was a trouble. Yeah, I've been there for every piece of it.

[A]

Wow. Have you? Have you. Did you ever entertain going into the business, what we're in?

[C]

So, ironically, I did. I was in the mid-90s. I was writing for the Boston Herald and trying. I really wanted a sports column in the high school newspapers. And it's like, I have no chance. This is never happening. And I lived with a guy who I'd done a lot of comedy stuff with just for fun. And we knew this guy named Bill Lawrence, who I think he's a producer. Yeah. At the time he was on the show Friends, and he had an SNL connection. And it was the year when everything blew up. When the New York magazine, when they wrote that piece, and it was when they were coming in and they're blowing up the show. It's summer in 95 maybe. And we did this whole packet and we sent in, you know, 20 pages of stuff. Now, I learned later, like, there's no way anybody even saw it, but we sent it in. We're like, this is it. This is our big break. And it never happened. But without.

[B]

You mean without an agent or something, just sending in a packet?

[C]

No, but we had like, oh, a guy knows a guy. I was one of those. But you don't know any better. I was living in Boston.

[B]

We're not supposed to, you know, we're not supposed to read them when we're on the show. We were talking yesterday about how we had mailboxes. You know, there wasn't email, so Dana's was always full. And then. And Mike Myers, and then everyone else has started getting full. But. But if people sent packets, which a lot of people would send us scripts and stuff, and to this day, if you read, they can sue you. So you really can't even read it in case you don't like it. But three years later, there's a sketch like that on the show. It's very easy to think we didn't

[C]

know that in Boston. We're just like, I know they're going to hire us. We'll be able to come in. We'll be hanging with Sandler. And it just did not happen.

[B]

Better keep my summer freak so I can go in there and prep when they call right away.

[A]

What was your first sketch that. That was the top of that 20 page pile. What was it? What was the topic of it?

[C]

It was a big Friends parody. It was the first year of Friends. We did a long. You probably saw it in the pile. No, it was a big pile.

[A]

And I told Lauren, it's not happening. It's all right. He'll do fine.

[C]

I remember we had another one about Jesus making Jesus coming back and signing with Nike and doing this whole. And we were like, really? This is so edgy. This is going to be great now. I read it now. I'd want to kill myself.

[B]

Well, yeah, but sometimes stuff was funny anyway. Back then, when I even look back at sketches that are like, clanking, it seemed to work then, and you just don't know. And then later you embarrass. But some of them actually still hold up.

[A]

Yeah, we're gonna.

[C]

It's funny with your era there. The sketches were mean in a good way. Like some of the stuff. I like some of the Carson stuff. Dana, did you go back and you watch it? You're like, ooh, man. Like, was Carson okay with this? I just don't know if stuff's not mean in the same way. Especially snl, which is way more celebrity friendly than I think it was. But back then, it was like. Like Rob Lowe did that. The. The Arsenio Beckman, whatever. That one was like the Arsenio parrot. It's like, man, this is kind of mean. Yeah, but it was good. That's what we all grew up with. That was what made us laugh.

[A]

I don't know if there's a better way to put it, but if there's an elephant in the room or what you're not supposed to say or what you're observing, you just need to tease that out. That's why it's fun, you know? And then it can be construed as mean or not mean. But Johnny was fine with it. He actually liked Carcino. You know, he really. They're making fun of Arsenio as much as they're making fun of us. That was. And then there was one sketch that got him dinged, and I was blacklisted casually from the show. So bittersweet memories. But of course, I revered Carson and I revered doing him. I've never had more relaxed fun than being in the Johnny, the Ernest Nebraska guy. That. That's just a great. Bill's here. And you apparently have a very big podcast called. It's called the Ringer, I understand. You know, that interviewer with that voice hasn't been replaced yet. But we've had some great people. But not no Carson yet.

[C]

Well, then you did the Lara Sanders episode, which in the bed that one of the best seasons in the history of television. Season four. But where you come on and you're doing the impression and they're trying to keep Larry from finding out that Dana has his impression of him. Then he sees it and then it's a whole cat and mouse game of whether he's going to do it on the show. But you actually have the mustache on and the fake teeth. You're like, I have the cheeks.

[A]

Yeah. And I heard Gary was tweet by it later, but I told him, I said, I'm just doing one frequency that you use in your stand up something. And I don't even know what he's

[C]

trying to do to me.

[A]

You know, it's like Jay Leno. Yeah, it goes like that. But he doesn't talk like that, you know, but anyway, he goes like this too.

[C]

I do think that was different way back in the day where you would take a piece of something and both of you guys did it. You take a piece of whatever and then you blow it out. And now it'd become the impersonation. Right. Like Will Ferrell did that with, with when he was doing wow. He took like small pieces of it. It wasn't even close to being W. You did that when you did George Bush Sr. Same thing.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Now I feel like when they're doing the impressions, it's more like a dead on impersonation of somebody is the trend now. But back then it was like, I'm gonna take this one piece and go crazy with it.

[A]

I'm doing it with Biden currently because I, you know, you need to, you know, I said this yesterday, but my latest toy is so abstract. It's the only one who understand Biden is Hunter. So then I can do Biden of anything. Hey, dad, what's going on? Yeah, Francisco goes to people. So say, oh no, I already ate. Maybe tomorrow night. Yeah, because I said sure. Yeah, 7:30 is great. Okay. You know, so I, I find for myself in high school with my friends. I don't want to ask you this. Abstracting my impression of the water polo coach into madness. And then that rhythm extenuated but coming from someplace real. Like Will's W was in a real zone, but so playful. I just like the style of it. I also like people who could do a perfect impression too. But I do like abstracting it.

[C]

I mean, that was Hartman like when, when I was in College. And we would tape it. You know, we'd have, like, the VCR player, so we'd tape it. We watched it the next day. It was like a Sunday ritual. And Hartman did the McMahon. And we thought the McMahon was, like, the funniest thing of all time. It wasn't really. You know, there are pieces of ed, but his version of McMahon, we thought, combined with the Carson, we just, like, we would be imitating, it would be talking bad. But Hartman was really good at. He did that with the Sinatra group, too. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Oh, sure.

[C]

Where the same thing. Like his version of Sinatra, Piscopo is like, more of an impression, and he would have fun with it. I know Pisco was on your pod. I loved it, but great, great.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The Hartman. Sinatra was a little bit, like, I don't know, a little rowdier, a little angrier. And I thought I was funnier.

[B]

What about AD McMahon doing it when all he has to say is, yes, and you are correct. Just those little hooks just saying it over and over. You are correct, sir. And then when he goes, young, older reference lost on younger viewers.

[A]

Yes, because that. That was where Phil was the laugh bomb, and I didn't have to carry that weight. I was kind of doing this rhythm and setting it up and very sincere. And I know that you are correct, sir. Yeah, old reference last time. So it was just like a magic show. It was like. And then boom. But, yeah, Phil was just.

[C]

There was a piece to that Carson thing, though, where you were tapping into something that I think people my generation were feeling were like, Letterman was our guy. For my generation, like, the. The most important things that happened to me when I was like, 12, 13 was Eddie Murphy and Letterman and just kind of going on the ride with both of those guys from 82 to 85. And Carson. I love Carson, everyone. You know, for. For three generations, Carson was. With three channels, everyone watched Carson. But he did start to seem a little old by the time we got to the late 80s. And when you guys kind of crossed the beams and went after him a little bit in a fun way, but you still went after him. It was a little like when Norm went after letterman in the mid-90s. It was the same thing where he loved Letterman, but the fact that he was parroting him was like, oh, okay, we're doing this now.

[A]

Well, I would say built to that, that I kind of realized that everybody, every comedian becomes a caricature of themselves. Like, am I looking at this comedian and maybe actor or whatever? Or am I looking at an impersonator so there's just this redundancy to your character. But with Johnny, Jay Leno told me he was guest hosting back then. Johnny was still around. That Johnny would walk down at NBC in Burbank and just yell out, they're making fun of me now. It's time to go. So, Right. That was Johnny, who's obviously was very bright, kind of reading the tea leaves,

[B]

you know, and then you never went on again.

[A]

Right, I didn't.

[C]

Well, so what happened when you did Dennis Miller, who you were friends with, who used to be on the show,

[A]

Very good friends with that.

[C]

When you did Dennis Miller cooking. But did he like that? Did he think it was funny?

[A]

Well, Robert Smigel writes these pieces that are brilliant and they're little cutting. I. With that because I was good friends with Dennis. I just called him, you know, and said, we're doing the cooking show, the thing. And he goes, okay, that's all right.

[B]

You know, I mean, it's hard to say no, even though you don't like. I don't think anyone really likes an impression when they're. It's like getting a caricature, you know, on.

[C]

It's all the things you're fearful of

[B]

yourself, all the things you don't like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They did me about three weeks after I left snl. I'm like, let me get out of the building. Jesus. Let the body get cold.

[C]

Anyway, well, you had Terry Hatcher sitting next to you for the Spade in America that time.

[B]

Oh, that was.

[C]

That was one of the best ones you ever did. And she just started doing you, and it was like, oh, what's going on here?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at least I got to be there and give her jokes and things to say to. So make it funny and make her at least get. Get more of the laughs because she was the host, but she was great about it. Yeah, that was. That was actually a fun one because I was there. But, like, when you did Dennis with Tom Hanks, that was fun, but Dennis is in on it. And then I think he doesn't mind.

[C]

And he.

[B]

And he sort of is that way. And his voice is so perfect to do. I think he was always cool about it. He's. And he's so great it. And it's. So when you have a way of speaking that can be. It's just very unique. And I think that's ultimately, it was

[A]

just from hanging out with Dennis a lot and touring with Dennis and just extrapolating that attitude. But, you know, I was standing outside a hotel. Dennis I were playing Dallas or something, and I said. That just hit me that your whole comic motif is like, life is really fucked. And it's really hard, like, because the car at the airport, they get. The car gets you to the gig, right? But when you do the gig the next morning, the car's always late. Which, I pointed that out to Dennis. And then he just. He laughs so hard. Me going dark. You know, they got us in, but now, fuck it, now it's a half hour late, flight's leaving, you know. And he died with that. But I just think that attitude is still so funny to me, Bill. Billy Simmons, huh? SNL cat. All right. Got the photographic memory, like a Junior Kreskin here.

[C]

So fun.

[B]

Kreskin's always in there. You know, we golf once in Palm Springs, and he goes. We drive all the way there. And he goes. He goes, you want to go golf in Palm Springs? I was like a newer comic. And he goes. I go, yeah, yeah. So he goes, yeah, okay, I'll meet you out there. I'm like, we don't drive together. Like, okay. So we drive all the way. Yeah. And then we get out there, and then we're golfing, and I go, hey, how far to the green? He goes, hey, Spud, you don't have to worry about the green for another nine shots, all right? Hit it as hard as you can. And I'm like, okay. Because we were.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

And then he hits two bad shots in a row, and he goes. And I'm heading back. I go back home to la, goes, yeah, fuck that. I go, dennis, don't be. This is. You're too hard to deal with. Come on, we're having fun. Everything's cool. But I looked up to him so much, I couldn't really talk back to him or bust his balls too much. It took so long to get to that point, but he's still always above me. Better joke, right? It's always that thing growing up, who do you look at? That's why when people come on the show.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I still have reverence to certain people, because I got there with Dana, with all these guys, because they were always the ones I. I looked up to going on. And then if you ever get in a movie where kids come to you and say, hey, we watch bench warmers or we watch whatever, and then you go, if this is anything close to what it was like when I would watch movies and I saw someone from that movie, I would have fucking freaked out. Because that's all that mattered in My life was those movies.

[C]

Yeah. We also had less choices back then. I really wonder, like, if you're like 18 now, there's so much comedy and stuff to watch. Tik Tok, all these different places blended. Like when I think you guys were both on the. On the show for this, the Partridge Family versus Brady Bunch sketch.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, to me, that was one of the peak SNL sketches. Not because it was like one of the funniest, but it was like it hit this time. Everyone watching that show had the same pop culture experiences. Right. So anyone I knew knew the Partridge Family. We knew the Brady Bunch. We knew every episode of those. We knew Charlie's Angels. We knew all the early SNL's. We knew the early Light. Like, we all had like the same 25 things with the same movies. So when you guys did that and it was like, oh, they're going for this. Oh, there's more cast members. Oh, they're going to have the voice crack. And I don't know how you would do that now in 2024, because I don't know if 15, 20 years ago, people like at age 20 know if it exists.

[A]

I mean, the biggest show currently kind of is the Bear, which is a great show, but, you know, how far can it reach compared to primetime? I got canceled from a sitcom and we were doing Mickey Rooney Show. 24 share, or whether it was 30 million or just with three channels is insane. But we actually to that sketch, we had Melanie Hutzel on who was in it, and she wrote it. And we broke that sketch down for like a half hour on the podcast with her. Just the part.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the. How it came together. The Brady Bunch.

[C]

Well, plus Susan Day was in it, which pushed it over the top. But I heard even Piscopo when he was on a couple weeks ago on your show and he was talking about how they didn't feel like the show was doing that well, but yet 8 million people are watching or whatever it was. That's what it was like. Like we had.

[B]

Right.

[C]

11 channels. So even if SNL was kind of failing, everyone was still watching it. And then when SNL started to come back with Eddie was like, this is great. SNL's back. And then they had the Billy Crystal season.

[B]

Did you have a crush on Susan Day or not? I did.

[C]

Oh, my God. Come on.

[B]

I mean, growing up with the Partridge Family, I was like, Dana liked David Cassidy, but I me and you liked Susan Day.

[C]

Well, then she had the La Lock comeback, which was like, all right, I was into it.

[B]

Chrissy didn't talk much.

[A]

Attractive. Who's more attractive from that?

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

Elizabeth. Elizabeth Montgomery or Susan Day?

[C]

Susan Day. I felt like Elizabeth Montgomery was a little slightly older generation. Right.

[A]

Thanks for answering that, Bill.

[C]

No, no, there was like. There's three generations. There was like the Peggy Lipton, Bullen de Montgomery generation. There was the Lindsay Wagner, Linda Carter, Cheryl generation.

[B]

Loved. I was such an easy sell. God damn. Oh, I was in Everybody. All the above.

[A]

All the above Life Danner.

[B]

The Charlie's Angels.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Blythe Danner.

[C]

Then we moved to the Dukes of Hazard. Ball guy. Heather Thomas, Catherine Bach, that era.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You were watching a lot of tv. I was an only child.

[C]

I was watching sports and tv. What else was I reading? Books. What else was I gonna do?

[A]

Me too. I know. I. I know all those shows. I don't know what we've lost. I was. We were going to ask you just because you're have your pulse on, you know, media podcasting stuff is like, is Jon Stewart's coming out and SNL and what is the influence now of political satire versus 80s and 90s in terms of moving the needle? I like that phrase. So anyway, talk to that if you want to.

[C]

Well, it's. I mean, SNL had a huge part with this. I would say maybe the biggest. And once Trump came in in 2016, I think it just became a lot harder because when. When the real life stuff is a parody. How do you parody a parody? When you look back to Akroyd, I mean, you've talked about this on the podcast. Ackroyd's doing Nixon. He's got a mustache. Like, everything was way more loosey goosey. Ackroyd's doing Jimmy Carter, talking about the Allman Brothers smoking a doobie with them. And yeah, Hartman does Reagan. I mean, his. The Reagan sketch where Reagan's pretending he's out of it and then everybody leaves the room. And, I mean, that's one of the great sketches they've ever done.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then once they figured out the debates, the 88 debate, I think, was huge with the Dukakis and Bush and there was just so. And Lovett's doing the. I can't believe I'm losing this guy. I think from 88 all the way through Sarah Palin, SNL really was kind of shaping how people thought in a lot of ways. To me, like, the Sarah Palin thing still makes me mad because when they had her on with Tina, I felt like that's when something shifted and the celebrity cameo became as important for the show as making fun of these people. And that's. That, to me, is like the line in the sand. When the show started to change a

[B]

little bit, Dana, they'd bring on. They'd have 32 cast members. Then they'd bring on stars to play people and not use the cast. I would be curious.

[A]

A lot of. A lot of cameos. Yeah. That feel like it's very. It's so different and difficult to be a cast member on that show right now if you're just coming into established players. And I think it's great. I kind of wish I'd stayed a few years longer, but people are staying 10, 12 years and then new people in there. It's such a different dynamic that Lauren is managing the best he can, you know.

[C]

I thought you stayed the perfect amount of time.

[A]

Well, I definitely. Because Wayne's World hit and my political impressions hit, I got sort of freakily really big really fast. Maybe too big, you know, and so I had so much. So much stuff coming at me. I was almost confused as to what to do. But later on, I realized that my own attention. Attention deficit disorder and sketch comedy. I was like a fish in water in that. That's why I went back to it in 97 with. With the Dana Carver.

[C]

Right. Loaded.

[A]

What about.

[B]

I'm asking about podcast superstars. What's next for Megan and Harry? Because I don't.

[A]

Didn't you say something about. You've called.

[C]

No, I love something in the past.

[B]

Yeah, it's a great word. But do they. Is it Hallmark movies now? What's next? What would be the best move?

[C]

I mean, there's probably a rom com. There's a huge acting comeback for her at some point. Right.

[B]

She should do that suits show. It's huge now on Netflix. You should just jump right back in.

[C]

Or some tv, like a Christmas movie where her divorced husband and they have to be with the kids, but they're stuck in the snow and then they fall back in love. Yeah. She just needs one of those. Yeah, she's back.

[A]

And John Corbett could play her husband, but.

[B]

Because all she needs is one thing like that to get big ratings. Just out of curiosity factor, and she's back in Hollywood. I don't know why. I don't know why she's jumping back.

[C]

Reason. Suits took off again, though. I mean, of course, huge on that secret. Yeah.

[A]

Do you think if Harry came out, I mean, he did some event in Vegas where he made fun of himself a little bit or told some jokes. I think that's the move for him.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It could be on this podcast or on other. On yours or Hostess and out. Any kind of little. Just in the lane of it being funny. He's aware of how people perceive him and stuff I think would be because they're just monolithic now. We don't really know what they're thinking. They release statements and here, here's one

[C]

thing I've learned, Dana. I've said and I've had my podcast since 2007. Not everybody should have a podcast. Like, it's okay. It's not like it's not like a driver's license. You know, some people just can't do it.

[B]

It's turning into it. It's sort of mandatory.

[A]

Yeah. I just want to make a note

[C]

because just make it for the people listening. You don't all have to have one. It's ok.

[B]

It's sounds easy and it's kind of hard.

[C]

It's hard. And you have to do. You have to have some level of expertise on something. You have to have some real authenticity. I mean, one of the reasons, like think about all the reasons your, your show works. You have a relationship with each other. I'd want to listen to you guys talk anyway. You have this wealth of SNL related guests, but then also other comedians that could come on that feel comfortable with you. They tell stories. I hear things maybe I didn't know. And I just feel like I'm hanging out with you guys. Like, podcasting's not that hard, but people always, over and over again make it hard and they come up with. They try to do the idea versus to look at what actually works, which is like, do I want to spend time with the hosts or not? Over and over again it's do I want to spend time with these people or not or this person? And that's what works.

[A]

Where do you. Where do you interject? Because my, you know, people tell me about outrage. Outrage. If it's outrageous, it's contagious. You know, a lot of podcasts kind of harbor in, you know, the idea of clicks and trending. You have the hot take that gets there first and there's that lane. We're sort of. We want to make people feel good and be interesting, but we don't. Should David and I have a feud? We can cut this part out, but should we find a way to get really mad at each other? But you know that, that lane. I mean it now.

[C]

You guys are good. You guys are doing great. Spade. Every, like, maybe every month could just take a flying Potshot at somebody to see if it could maybe get in a couple places.

[B]

See if I still got it out

[C]

of nowhere, jumping off the top rope, flying elbow on somebody. Yeah, I could mess around.

[B]

I want to, Believe me, I want to.

[A]

A lot of times, instead of flying the wall, fly on the minute and you bring back Hollywood Minute. But it's part of our show. Just wait.

[C]

Can we talk about Hollywood Minute for a second?

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

One of the iconic update reoccurring things that David did.

[C]

Did Hollywood Minute create Twitter?

[B]

O yeah.

[C]

How about that? Yeah, I think you should.

[A]

It was a pre precursor for sure.

[C]

It's basically Twitter. You watch it and it's just like he's throwing out these one liners with

[B]

a picture about a photo. Yeah.

[C]

You should talk to Elon, maybe see if you can get a cut.

[B]

God damn. I don't know. I. I sometimes hear old Hollywood Minute jokes and I go, God damn. Like, some of them are pretty rough and. But I think for back in the day when it was just fawning over celebrities, that was the only hook it had. It was like, someone doesn't really know anyone or you don't know me, and I've got sort of an innocent look. And then really, hopefully, cleverly. And that's another thing, is a lot of the writers, I was going to say, are trying to use me to get through me, even through sketches, through Dana. They want to get stuff out there, even if it's like anger. And they go, you should do this because they don't have a way to do it. They go, I can funnel it through one of these clowns and get it out there and then I'll be on the side going, yeah, fuck that guy.

[C]

And so social media has changed that, though. You're doing that on the show and it's just on, Right. And people taped it. Then it comes and goes. And if somebody got mad, maybe you'd read about it in a newspaper or the trades, but ultimately you couldn't even see it unless you watched it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think now that the last 15 years, one of the things that's changed with the show is if something, you know, like you have some comment in Hollywood Minute, be like, oh, my God, then it turns into a thing. Then the celebrity gets mad, they fire back at you. Now people are reporting about that and it turns into a four days.

[B]

It would be before I went to bed that night, I would know what hit, what didn't, what was a problem. And then I'd have to have an answer next day. And then there'd be a feud, and then it would go back and everyone have a comment about it. I think that keeps SNL really helps it, because if I don't see a sketch now, I follow them. So if I don't see a sketch, I can watch it Sunday morning. They're just like, sketch, sketch, sketch. Like broken out monologue this, that. And that's kind of a smart way to sift through to see what's going on there lately.

[C]

Yeah, totally. Well, it's also interesting to see how the cast members are using. Like, Chloe Feynman has a really good Instagram account, and she's just like, test drives different characters and stuff. And you're what? Yeah, half the time you're watching and going, how is this not on the show? Why am I watching this on Instagram?

[B]

But it's a great audition.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It seems like there's more creative outlets than probably you had in the mid-90s where you're writing for yourself. If they say no to the sketch, you're basically like, oh, all I did was walk out and say goodbye to everybody. Then that I did nothing. And then that's it till the next week.

[B]

Right now, that one stung. That was a little too close to home. Yeah.

[C]

There's this Instagram account that runs all these old sketches, and they ran Comedy Killers from Neal, and it's a game show. Nealon's the host. And I don't know if Dana was still on this show, but David probably was. But it's all these categories of things, whether they're a comedy.

[B]

Oh, that's right.

[C]

It's like the categories like the Holocaust Chow. And then it goes through. And I was like, man, what would happen if they ran this now? What would the reaction be? Because back then we were like, oh, this is great. What a great idea. This is so funny. We were all in on the joke. Now people would just get mad. I feel like.

[B]

I think that's why people like Bill Burr or Shane or those guys do well, because it's just. Even Theo, they just say whatever they want. And it's almost like back in time. And then some people go, I don't want to get mad. I just want to laugh or not laugh and not have a big opinion about it and move on. But. And then people get ready them and want to get rid of them. And you go, no, maybe you can't get rid of people anymore. Hopefully. Just if it just falls under comedy. Of course, we always think you should be able to do whatever you want. But not everyone isn't.

[C]

The reason you guys got in a comedy is like, part of what was funny is, oh, I probably shouldn't say that, or oh, I shouldn't laugh at that. But that's what was funny about it. And now the fear there's. There feels like there's more fear than we've ever had with comedy. But I, I agree with you that it's coming back, because my son's 16 and he loves Shang Gillis, and he, like that generation, I think, is ready to see somebody kind of dance close to the line again.

[A]

Right?

[B]

They. They went from the super pampered, super. Everyone's scared to do anything. And the new people like, hey, it. Let's get back to just laughing and doing jokes. And not because it's all. It's all down to like, five jokes you're allowed to use. And then everyone's like, okay, I'll accept that one. That one didn't offend anyone. It has no, no corners on it. It's just the most generic, bland dog. And some of these comedy specials, they're just sitting, talking, like there's not even earlier. They're just like walking around, you go, is there joke? Someone's like, oh, I won't have an audience in mind or I won't have this. And there's not. It's not just even jokes anymore making you laugh. It's like introspective. And I go, I personally would go, let's just get back to getting laughs.

[C]

I agree. What do you think, Dana?

[A]

You know, you were maybe too young for this when it came out, but Blazing Saddles. So Blazing Saddles is like, it's a peak movie for me. I'm like a senior in high school or something.

[C]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

And so I knew that Richard Pryor, who co wrote it with Mel Brooks, was not racist. And neither was Mel Brooks. I knew it was. They were satirizing. All the white racists are idiots. Cleavon Little is above everybody, so. And the movie is hysterical. But, yeah, you can't do it.

[C]

Now.

[A]

The difference between, like, I played a Southern, A Strom Thurmid or whatever, Southern carrot on snl, and right now it would be like, as if I'm that guy. Yeah, we've lost our sense humor about it. For better, for worse. It's very. It's very serious out there because the stakes are very high between the left and the right and Trump and Biden. It's very. It's just compared to like, Clinton versus George Sanders, like, so benign and now it's all toxic and I have to trace it back to social media giving us a platform and tribalism. Talk to that. I don't want to even to mention. What do you think about that? People getting.

[C]

Yeah, there's bubbles. It's like, it's the, it's a combination. Social media becomes the hall police where a lot of people on social media are just trying to get people mad at each other. Being like, did you see that? Did you see what he said? Did you see that? And kind of poking the bear on that stuff. It's also easier to go backwards and have somebody be like, oh, I dug this thing you did at your comedy 1993. That's weird. You have people who are doing stand up acts. I know they try to take the phones as much as possible, but you know, sometimes when you're. And I'm not a stand up. But I've talked to enough of them. Like sometimes you're out there, you're testing and you're trying to figure out what works and what doesn't and where the lines are. And if you're losing that ability, that becomes dangerous too, I think. But Right.

[B]

Yeah. It's also hard to pry people's phones out of their hands. I mean it's. Who's giving up their phone for two hours? You know, that's a very tough situation to say. You can't talk to your babysitter, you can't talk to anyone. And, and so you have to agree to do that. People are doing it. But yeah, what you're saying is true. If you want to say jokes to go way too far. And then you're going to be judged on that. You're like, this is where we used to practice. And then we go, okay, that one didn't work. Okay, that's too much. But it's already out there now. And they're like, no, that's your favorite joke. And you're like, no, that was a pretend joke. I'm trying to sharpen and now I gotta. I'm gonna die with it. Because that's. Where do you practice? You know, what do you do? I'm with you.

[A]

Yeah, well you, you wanna. As comedians mostly just you wanna say what you're not supposed to say. It's what pops into your head to take that away. And yet we all self censor now. Oh yeah, I can't do that. I won't do that. We'll cut that. You know, just do. You're not even thinking about. But you are.

[C]

Well, I remember the Sketch the Italian restaurant sketch with Kirsty Alley. When you're the mater d and you're just like basically mauling the guests, which I'm half Italian, so I love that because Italian restaurants really are actually like that. They're very touchy feely and so you went for it. And there's that one part when the camera pans back and he's just got Victoria Jackson with her legs up. And then by the end of it, they're just like licking the face and doing all that. I don't even know if I'm not even positive that would fly now. I don't know. I just don't know. It's right on the line.

[A]

But what I would tell people have seen it or offended whatever is I asked Kirstie Alley, can I are you okay with this?

[C]

She's amazing and she like, she lets everything go.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Some people are there to say whatever. We, let's do anything you want to me and whatever's the funniest and they trust you. And then it's way funnier than the people that are stiff and worried about it. That's the best.

[A]

And we did it in dress where I go over to the table and Victoria goes back. I have her legs up around my shoulders and I'm talking to everyone sort of. And then apparently the censorship people said, hey, chill that a little bit. But somehow Smigel pretended to or Rob Schneider, I can't remember, pretended to try to get to me before that. But that was probably once I was in that position. In 8h I go. 1 of the biggest laughs I've ever been been part of was that but

[B]

had the honor to be associated with,

[A]

to your point, couldn't do it. Today we're going to have I don't know if we had her already Sharon Stone. There's a sketch that has 16 million on YouTube where we are sort of ogling her. She's going through airport security. Oh, look. And I'm playing Man from Indonesia or something. Oh, look. Oh, can we take you? And so we're taking her clothes. I, I, I don't know if we'll talk about it with her or whether you are after her.

[C]

But you know when I remember when I did the pod with Spade, we were talking about snl, the thing that I always feel like it doesn't get enough credit for. It catches somebody a lot of times at the absolute most famous they ever were at whatever point in their career. But with the guest host, right, seeing Sharon Stone on probably like right After Basic Instaca right before. And she's the most white hot famous she's ever going to be, like, right there, right in that moment. And that's why it's so. It's so funny to see some of the social media accounts that are around SNL right about. Like, they have the ones of just. There's a. There's a Twitter account of just a guest host announcing the musical guest. And sometimes it's really funny because they could be like, there's Steven Seagal, you know, introducing. Oh, the Smashing Pumpkins. And it's like, yeah, it's like pop culture Mad Libs, you know, that. Like, there's one Emilio Estevez, like, saying good night, and it's Pearl Jam, and it's super young Eddie Vedder, and it's like, all right, thanks to Eddie and Pearl Jam. And there's no other pop culture artifact like that.

[B]

You know, someone dug up Bill, which I saw might have been on Twitter, was just rolling at promos, which I didn't know they were rolling when I was there, because they're just rolling. And then they're like. And I used to write promos. So it's me, Emilio, Eddie Vedder, Lauren, talking and then going, okay. And then it's just all the talk in between. I would say this. I'd hit this. We step out of frame. They try one, hey, it's Emilio Estevez and Pearl Jen. And then we all walk back into frame and go, how'd it go? We were a second too long. Okay, take this word out. It's riveting for me to go like, there's me. It's almost like watching that Beatles thing where you go, there's something I didn't know about. And they're filming, and it just a little sliver of time in one of my favorite things in the world and just doing it, and just my daily. The boring, daily grind of that place. And you go, so fucking cool.

[C]

Well, for both of you, it's like, all that stuff must be, like, these random home movies that are in your attic. But meanwhile, like, 20 million people have

[B]

seen them, and they're dress rehearsal and stuff. We never saw dress on video, or we. Or they have it somewhere because now they're showing clips from snl, from Dress, and they're showing this, and they have a million things backstage, and some of the mystery is gone. But it was fun to just run around backstage. There's no security, there's no nothing. There's no. There's people in the hall drunk and Friends of friends that are there. And Phil Hartman's going move the out of the way because he's got 90 seconds to get to his quick change of back. And people are drunk. Hey, man. Like I'm at the show. But now I think they've got a little more dialed in. But that was part of the fun of it.

[A]

It's a, you know, it's, there's a surreality to it. I always tell people it's a little bit like going back to your high school on a Sunday afternoon when no one's around and just walking around the halls, whatever that feeling is. So when I'm there in the 17th floor and I'll be walking along and I'll see me and Phil in a sketch or picture David, or it's, it's, it's heady stuff because experientially, it's, it is the most intense part of one's life or, or right up there, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because of the liveness of it and the legacy of it. That's why I think of cast members who joined this year. You know, I was lucky, but I had Eddie and Billy Crystal, Martin Short, that, those guys. And then also the original cast, which is like Mount Rushmore for all of us, you know.

[C]

But when you, when you showed up, the show is in trouble because it felt like that transition year after the Billy Crystal, that Martin Short and Christopher Guest that year. And then Lauren came back, he had this young cast and only a couple of them ended up staying, I think for the second year. But then you showed up and Hartman showed up, and all of a sudden the show was. The show is amazing again. But could you feel like, did it feel like that was a make or break year? Now I feel like I'm interviewing you. Did that feel like a make or break year for the, for the cast, or did you not even sense that?

[A]

Well, unless I've misremembered this, but Diana Minot, who was Lauren's lieutenant producer, really nice woman, I believe her saying, I was told that we had a 10 show commitment, that 10 shows. Bernie Berlstein went to Brandon Tartikoff, I think, and just said, you got to give Lauren one more shot, as I remember. So I was told this. If we don't hit the ground running, they're going to pull the plug at Christmas. So incredibly nervous. Anyway, and the first sketch that I did, Madonna came on for my first show and apologized for the 85 season. That was our cold open.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I'm in a sketch with Jan Hooks and Phil and myself. And I just found out recently I was talking to Robert Smigel and. And Tim Down, Jim Downey, and they just said that the audience felt safe with us. And at that moment, because you don't want the audience to feel nervous for you or not quite sure where the joke's going. You know, we want to get them relaxed. So to come in with them and do that was great. And then when David showed up and Chris Rock, Chris Farley, Sandler, I felt like in those years we were peak, peak, all cylinders for. For us because we had right the bat, the bad boys kicking ass. And then we also still had Phil and John Lovitz for a year and Dennis and stuff. So that was.

[C]

I mean, that was. That was the second peak of the show. I feel like the show is in danger in my lifetime. Three times. The first was after the original cast left that Gene Dominion year that you talked about a little with Piscopo. But it really felt like the. If Eddie. If Eddie isn't there, the show gets canceled. Like that.

[B]

Was that the Robert Downey, Anthony McCall.

[A]

No, that was.

[C]

That was the next one. Was that the. So that was season six. They had Eddie. They end up keeping. But if they don't have Eddie, I think the show gets canceled. Yeah, I think if the Dana, Phil Hartman, that first season doesn't work, I think the show gets canceled. And it really feels like if. If the Will Ferrell that season, if Feral's not on the show and the new blood and the people they kept, but then the new people they brought in, if that season didn't work, I do wonder if they would have canceled it that year because I remember that that was back in the day when those magazine profiles, if it was the right kind of hit piece really felt like incredibly damaging and that I remember reading that New York magazine piece being like, oh, my God, the show's gonna get canceled. And then that first episode with Will, he showed up, he did get off the shed, he did the. The phone thing with Merrill Hemingway and it was just like, oh, we're good. This. This guy's amazing. This show's going to be good again. But after that, I never felt like SNO is in danger again. After that.

[A]

Where do you feel.

[C]

What.

[A]

How. Now that you are sort of an expert, what do you feel about this

[B]

season in this cast and the watch as much anymore? No, I watch.

[C]

I still watch. I still monitor it. I. I think they've made the mistake the last decade of too many cast members, which I think you can always trace. It's hard when your show is struggling.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[C]

When the show is always humming, it's always smaller cast members. I've talked about a bunch of people about this who've worked on the cast. Like, it's like a basketball team. If you, if you guys watch basketball like I do, if you're playing 14 players and everybody's playing, you know, 12 to 18 minutes a game, guess what? The team's gonna suck. But if you're, if you figure out who, like, your seven or eight are and you ride those seven or eight, the team's gonna be really good. And I always felt like SNL at its best always had the eights or nine. I, I, I went to Lauren's office, like, 10 years ago, and I got to do a podcast with him, which was amazing. I mean, it was like, honestly, one of the highlights of my career. And I was giving him my basketball theory, and his answer was, yeah, but the new cast members, that's kind of like the draft and you, it takes so a couple years for the new cast members.

[B]

Put them behind a veteran.

[C]

Legs.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And you got to have those guys ready. And that's why we have the deeper cast. I get it, but I still feel like it should be eight or nine max.

[A]

I would have been tough on me. I just, I happened to be in, like, four things on the, on my first episode, I didn't even know what I was doing. But it's sink or swim if you're slow motion. It's kind of like if you don't like when, when an NBA player gets traded and he, and then he comes in with a new team with a new system, and he gets into his rhythm, he's fits with the system. All of a sudden he's scoring 20 points. He's a different basketball player. But if you coming off the bench constantly and the offense isn't running through you. The same thing with snl. If you can't get your reps in and get rid of the fear. Not all of us are Eddie Murphy, who I thought was a savant, you know, at 19, but even will Ferrell. Everybody gets better the more they're out there. And then the audience also discovers you, gets comfortable with you. So I, I, it's, it's, it's pick your poison. I don't think, you know, I, Lauren, you know, it's his show. He's 50 years. He, he has a method to what? Everything. He thinks of everything. So I guess this is how it, how it works. You get to be on the show. But you may have. We. We didn't have anyone not in the show. When I was there, it was seven cast members.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So everybody was in every show. But now, a lot of times, oh, I wasn't in it for two weeks.

[B]

It's like Survivor. Yeah. Because there's people that just. If you don't make it, and then. And then they sometimes add but don't subtract. So now you add this person. Because you got to cover like a leading man type. You know, there's Sometimes there's types. I never got that back then. But sometimes you need to fill a Phil Hartman role. Sometimes you need to fill this kind of guy. And. And then if you don't do it or just adding now, suddenly it's just too many to keep track of. It's just hard for them. They go bananas. But then if they leave, where do you go? I remember I was gonna leave a year earlier, and then they're like, what do we have lined up? Because it's always easier to get work when you're on SNL and then had a movie almost every summer, and then you leave, and luckily, God, and just shoot me. But that doesn't always happen. So what do you do when you go? And so you just. Sometimes just stick it out. And there's people there sticking out longer than we used to. I stayed six years, and that was considered a hair long. Sandler Farley. Rock was three. Sandler Farley were four. Five. No, five. So I stayed one year too long. And I was like the guy that went to college, that came back to high school because it was Will and Sherry, and I was like, I like them. But I didn't. I immediately felt like, oh, no, all my guys are gone, and I don't know what to do with this. I don't. And so I just did one. Lauren goes, stay, and you can do one segment a week. Do whatever you want. And I didn't do sketches. I just did one segment a week of whatever I wanted, and that was like my own kind of update. So that was where the Terry Hatcher thing was. Sean Penn gave me a tattoo.

[C]

I thought that really worked. Yeah, it was fun.

[B]

It's funny. But you have one swing to get it right. I went to the World Series, did a field piece to the Braves with Chipper Jones and some people. So, you know, some of those came out pretty funny. But after that, I said, no, I think it's time to boogie. And. And then I forgot where this question started.

[C]

Well, I Mean, part of it is about how you build the cast. Right. And everyone says the same thing. You have to have that one glue person, you know, and then that was. You could argue about who the greatest glue person was. It's probably Phil. Yeah. Ackroyd's in there. I think there was a moment where Sudeikis and Hater together, just literally covering every possible glue thing you would ever want.

[A]

And Fred Armisen, too.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It's always amazing that you get these new peaks after Will Ferrell. And then we asked Kenan Thompson, who's your MVP or whatever, and he said, the women of the last 20 years. And I do think there were complaints about misogyny in terms of casting. And nor Nora Dunn had some complaints about it. And, boy, starting with, I don't know, Sherry o' Terry through Tina. And I'll miss all the name. Maya and. And Amy. You know, it's just Kristen and then. And then Kate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. Yeah.

[C]

But you know what, though? I didn't. That was totally fair because I always felt like Jan Hooks was one of the best cast members of that entire generation.

[A]

Yeah. Ever.

[C]

And she. And they're always like, oh, it wasn't till this when. And it was like, man, I. I

[B]

thought it's like, it's taking it away from her a little bit because she was so.

[C]

I. I mean, to me, she's in the running of one of the best female cast members in the history of the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think she's in the top five.

[A]

Yeah. A male. You would. Women were not running for president. I mean, Sarah Palin came on the scene, and there was Tina Fey meeting that.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

In. In the era I was in, it was mostly men, politically. There were other figures, but so that sort of evolved as well. Obviously, Hillary became a big. A big thing. But yeah. Jan. Jan Hooks. I don't know if I wouldn't call her underrated, because everybody knows. But if you really take a deep dive into her work, she was one of those. What can't she do, you know,

[B]

Bill, who's your. Who's your starting five if you took out the original cast? Because that's. That's. They're too good. They don't count.

[A]

And take us out.

[B]

Yeah. He's like, you don't have to worry about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Dana's got a real.

[A]

Dana is very.

[C]

Got a legitimate Mount Rushmore.

[A]

He's really got.

[B]

I really have to say. I'll give it to Dana. Okay. Take Dana out.

[A]

I get people who think I. I'm just I'm an impressionist. Like, Rich Little, when I meet him at airports and stuff. You did the best impressionist. And I go, well, but what about Church lady and Garth? And they go, oh, that's kind of flattering. Okay, go ahead.

[C]

I think. I think Hartman and Eddie and Farrell.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Just all the. All the different stuff they could do, they just had it, like. It's almost like instead of just naming five, it's almost like, who can't be left out? And I think you have to mention those three, and you have to mention Dana.

[B]

You have to mention Dana.

[A]

I.

[C]

And if you. If you're pulling the original. If you're. If you're saying that's off limits, that's tough for me, because I think Gilda was the best female cast member they ever had. And it's not a popular opinion because it was 100 million years ago and people barely remember it. But, man, if you go back and you look at all the stuff she did, she was so good, so talented, so famous that she had her own Broadway show. Like, how many cast members in the history of SNL could be like, you're so good at this. We're gonna have a show called Gilda Live, and you're gonna do all your characters. It's, like, impossible.

[B]

I'm not gonna fight young Gilda. Yeah. I mean, all these girls, the women today will probably be like, they looked up to Gilda. I'm sure. Like, we looked up to different. I looked up to Gilda, too. I mean, I would watch her, and I didn't realize how hard what she was doing was. I would see characters and just think that was the people, and then later go, oh, they're doing different. I don't know what's going on.

[C]

You know, I actually thought the last 20 years, I thought Maya Rudolph was the. Was the. My favorite female cast member. I thought she could do the most. I thought. I just thought she was incredibly talented. I know she's. She has, like, four or five kids. Like. Like, she's definitely gone the family direction a little bit, but. Oh, yeah, I think she was like. I just thought, like, she was one of those. She could literally do anything.

[A]

Well, it's almost like you could make three. Three or four packs for people. Like, sure, Maya, you can do top 20.

[B]

You could do top.

[A]

And then. And then you have Armisen and Sudeikis and. And Bill Hader, maybe the best, you know, so it's. It's. It's just a. It's a fun game. It's a way to celebrate the show. For me, my thought about Gilda is the charisma and the likability was. Was at the highest I'd ever seen of any cast member. I mean, there was a adorability thing about her. She's playing a little girl on a bed. It's an just herself. She's so committed. Just. There was just this kind of other level of. Of likability or adorability, whatever quotient you want to call it.

[C]

Who do you have as your number one? I. Maybe you're too close to this and can't answer, but number one Weekend update.

[A]

Well, I have to bifurcate them in a way, like. Yeah, like Chevy was the original. And so when I'm watching that show, he was just. No wonder he's a movie star. You know, he's like such a good

[B]

vibe to watch Chevy. Yeah. Everything was funny, everything was exciting. It was fun to watch.

[A]

Dennis. Dennis did six years solo. That's why I don't. You know, when you had Tina and Jimmy Fallon stuff, this is a different kind of idea. I do think the current two, Michael and Colin, I have a great chemistry. They're getting even better and looser. They're tricking each other. So I think they're really as good as it gets.

[C]

I love.

[A]

But for a solo, you know, night after night, I've never been around. And David would. You know, Dennis is just such a brilliant joke writer and he's a machine. But. So I would put him up there as the solo. I mean, Norm. Norm only did two years. You know, it's different. Right? Two years. Norm also had a thing. You couldn't take your eyes off of him. You know, when he's doing update. That smile, the dimples. I mean, he was like. He looked like a movie star. He never played into it, but he looked like a full blown movie star. Especially in that era. And then the. The turns that his jokes would take. I don't. What do you call it, David? That style of his, like OJ Is not doing too well because he kills people. Whatever it was, you know, the pauses. Yeah, pauses. And like this really bold turn. So he's. It's fun to.

[B]

Michael Jackson says he'll never get married, mostly because he's gay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then. But they let him do it. And then it's just hard to compete with that because that's just. In a world of. You weren't canceling people. He would have been canceled. I mean, there's so many things he said and Then he doesn't stand up or.

[C]

He was uncancelable people. I didn't.

[B]

Maybe he might have been uncanny. No, no, he doesn't care. And even later in his career, he would just do gigs and people come. They know what they're getting. So.

[A]

But yeah, can I just talk to that for a second? Because Norm's. He wasn't stoned, but his eyes were all sparkly and he had a grin on his face. I saw him go on the View once with Barbara Walters and everyone, and they're just talking about presidents or something, and he gets into a casual thing, just soft selling it with that grin of his. Yeah, the Clintons. Right? I mean, you know, they. They're good. I think I like them, but I think they. They kill. They kill the guy, right?

[B]

You know, they kill too many people. That's one thing.

[A]

And Barbara Walters didn't under. Didn't know who he was. It was just a comedian getting booked.

[B]

What are you. Wait, what. What.

[A]

What are you saying? I think really great. Right. But so his soft pedaling, he was almost like a country guy out in the town square or something. So you. They never landed hard in, like, a way with Norm. That was also part of his.

[C]

I thought Dennis was the best, but at Norm, Norm was my favorite.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I don't know. I just felt like I didn't know if everyone was in on Norm. I didn't know anything. I'm living in Boston. We don't have the Internet yet. I don't know how popular it is, but I just knew. Like, me and my friends, we were like, this guy's probably getting fired soon. Let's just enjoy this for. For the 10 to 20 weeks.

[A]

Did he originate fake news or was that someone else? Did Norm say and how's it.

[C]

Yeah, I think he did. Yeah. He also. He did the. Note to self, another interesting argument. People always have the same SNL arguments. Nobody has the who are the best five people to just pop next to the Weekend Update guy for four minutes.

[B]

Oh, for bits combo.

[C]

That was Belushi. Wait. That was one of the things he didn't get enough credit for when he would come in and he would do different things.

[B]

Give me. I can't.

[C]

He would do the one where he would just get super mad and end up with the butt. No. And then he'd go flying off. Like, I feel like he was the first one that always, like, got crazy throwing his body. Eddie became famous, and then Sandler probably hit the hardest of anybody.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because he could do the characters he could do the songs. Like when he did the. The first time he did the Hanukkah song. You go back and watch that clip. Like, people lose their fucking minds. Like, it's like he's Leonard Skynard singing Freebird.

[B]

He's a professional singer. Unreal. Along with Joe, which is very rare. And he's cute. And then I remember when he did Crazy Spoon Head. He did all the Halloween killing.

[A]

Yeah. And just. Just commitment. I mean, Adam has that. Whatever. Whatever he has, he's got it, you know, super, super likable charm. Yeah.

[C]

Hater, I think, is up there, too, for just popping on. Kate McKinnon was really good at it. Just coming on, playing some crazy character. But it is like its own little skill set. Because you. It's like you're a basketball player. You're just coming in and you have to make like five threes and two minutes. Yeah, you did it. I mean, that's how you broke in, right? With. Sit next to.

[B]

I think I was doing, like, little Hollywood minutes. Oh, that's what. That's all that was. Yeah. I guess I would come in and do those. But even if I did anything, I talked about going to concerts or whatever. You're sitting on a desk in the dark, and you're like. And you know it's coming to you, which joke. And then you slide in, and the cue cards, they point and they go like, you're up after this one, and you're like. Because you're in the dark and no one's really looking at you. And you slide over, and then there's 20 million people. Like, they see you. And even when you walk by, you go. I get this run in front of the camera right now.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I guess that's a trusty.

[A]

It is like a rodeo. A rodeo thing. Because I remember one time you're in. You're in. You're on deck, and you're in the darkness, and the show's all lit up, and there's laughs and rah, rah. And I think it was. Chris Rock was before me or something. So I see his hair, his chair rolls out, and he does his thing. Then I'm in the shoot. And it is. You have to go from just darkness and crew guys around you to being on. You know, so there's. There's.

[B]

But, Dana, what about when you do. You do a good one and kills, and then you kind of scoot yourself and then Piscopo. I mean, Joe Dixo pulls you off or whoever, and then. And then you're in the dark. And you're just walking behind, like, a Gap girl set, and no one's even looking at you. And you're like, your adrenaline's going, but the show's still going over here. And you sort of walk back to that underneath to maybe snag a few compliments from Lauren.

[A]

And then, well, you try to look at some of the audience members, and they avoid eye contact.

[B]

And then you go back where it's lit by your dressing room to change. You're like, anybody?

[A]

Did it go good? Did it go bad?

[C]

Like, another good category is the. The Mount Rushmore or whatever of people who weren't even the focal point of the sketch, but somehow were still the funniest person in the sketch, which is like, to me, Chris Farley is number one.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Like, he's in the dysfunctional Family Feud. He's. He's just like the loser kid who Harmon's been mean to, and he's probably, like, the fifth most important, but every single thing he does in the thing is hilarious.

[B]

And then at the end, he runs out and starts kicking to the left and right. I just saw that the other day. I go, what a. I remember walking every hearsal. I go, you're not really doing that. He goes, oh, yeah.

[C]

You were on the other side. You were in the normal.

[B]

Yeah, watch him. Yeah, we were. I think we were the normal family. Right?

[A]

He. Chris was. There was so much intellect behind all that. You knew him much better than I did, David. But his rhythms and sounds and moves that he would, you know, like. I mean, it just. They were so concise, and you could not. Not laugh. Like, when he would do his kind of fake laugh, like he would turn into a hog, you know, just around the office. Like, this is irresistibly funny. But, yeah, he. He was. Your eye went to him. Anything he was in. I once did Ross Perot riding him like he was a piggy. Come on, piggy boy. Let's go, piggy boy. And I was going, chris, is this okay with you? And he goes, oh, yeah, do whatever you want. You know, I'm whipping and stuff.

[B]

I know. Other people get mad, though. You can't do that to Chris.

[A]

No, Chris wasn't that.

[B]

No, no, do it. I'll do whatever you want. I don't care. I think it's funny so how you never kill a bit.

[C]

So we're headed for the 50th year.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Next year.

[B]

I know. Yeah.

[C]

Which I think is really good for your podcast, because, you know, it's the Fact that the show's been around for a half century is what do they do, Bill? What is this kind of leave?

[B]

Who takes over?

[A]

It's stunning and bizarre. I can't even Fathom. Fathom it. 50th,

[C]

I think. I, I'm guessing Lauren's gonna leave, and I'm guessing somebody major has to take over the show. Somebody with real DNA, with someone NBC would approve.

[B]

Everyone would have to approve.

[C]

It's. I, I just feel like it's Tina, it's Seth, if he wants to do it. And it's got to be somebody on that level who has that kind of chops. They're not just like, hey, we hired Bob. He's been a huge fan of the show. He'll be taking over for Lorne Michaels. Like, I, I don't see that happening. I feel like the person's got to have DNA.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We brought him over from Hallmark. And they, they would have to, they would be warned ahead of time that half the time you're miserable. I mean, it's, it's a tough show. Not every show crushes. There was just a lot of shows in my era where the party's a little grim and didn't really land it that night, you know, because that's why there's no other sketch shows, because the, the ratio of success to failure and a quick hit sketch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I, I do think the fact that it's live, they tried to take that away in the 90s. They said, let's make it taped and we gotta change the theme. And Lauren, to his credit, always resisted somehow. He knew about branding before maybe that was become such a thing. People talk about stuck with that theme. Everything's familiar. And that's why we can interview cast members. We talked to Mikey Day yesterday.

[C]

Right.

[A]

He's on today, and we know everything. We told him that. We know the offices you're in. We know Lauren's there. It's still. But Lauren might just stay a few more years. I don't know.

[C]

Yeah. Who knows? Like, the Patriots are going through this now. Bill Belichick just left and they hired a new coach and he's got a new coaching staff. And there's been a lot of stories about, whoa, things are so different. And oh, the coach talked to the media today, and, oh, my God, they have this, you know, they're changing this part of the office and it's going to be this now. And everybody's like, because Belichick was there for 20 plus years.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And just any kind of change feels like, the most substantial change ever. So I can't even imagine with SNL if somebody else came in and was like, hey, I thought of an idea. We're going to merge two offices and make it one big. People like, what? You can't do that. That's. It's been that way for 50 years.

[A]

And, you know, I don't know how you do that. Maybe Tina and Seth could make one. Lauren. I don't know. I mean, they, they would. Lauren is very good politically with the. The new regime as universal. Whoever he is or whoever the head of the network, he's really good at doing that. And how do you navigate all these cast members kind of game of throning each other? Even. Even if they love each other, it's still just. Your friend gets so. I don't know, it's really hard.

[B]

Lauren has all the celebrities too. So Lauren can call someone and say, maybe Steve Martin would be good in this. Let's call him.

[C]

But that's the thing that.

[B]

To be able to be dialed in

[C]

the new iteration of the show, I don't feel like should be celebrity dependent. I would go back to what the roots of the show were and go to cast members and a guest host, but not be celebrity dependent because, yeah, celebrity and pop culture is part of the. What they should be.

[A]

You know, I felt that. Yeah. And we talked about it earlier yesterday when the podcast a while back. But, yeah, when a celebrity would come in and then in my era, someone from the cast would do that impression. I just thought it was dispiriting, you know, for the cast. And we had. So I, I do think this. I'm gonna say it. The secret sauce. One of them is, is watching a young performer come in, male, female, watching them trundle along and then become a star. You're. You're in real time. You're experiencing it with them. And that is still the magic elixir of an unknown person being thrown out

[B]

there, you know, and you want those impressions to have some bite and you want to have some edge to it. And it's just hard if they're a friend of the show. Friend of the show. And so you got to stay away from some people. You can't do this politically.

[C]

Like, you could argue they should be having so much fun with Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce. Right. Like that should be. Think about if those people existed in the late 70s or in the late 80s. Sure, that would have been fodder for the show every week. But now I feel like they'd be a Little afraid because, oh, no, she won't want to come back on if we make fun of her. And that, like, the other piece of it is.

[A]

Good point.

[C]

Why is the show live at this point if there's no danger that comes with being live? Because. Right. Because the reason, the whole reason they had the show in the first place was this is live. Anything can happen.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Any line might get crossed, somebody might swear accidentally. All these crazy things could happen. Now it's like a safe live, which I don't at this point. Like, I don't know why you just wouldn't tape the show at 8 o' clock and air it at 11:30. It's not like, oh, my God, what's gonna happen? I don't. Do you feel like that might change that way anymore?

[B]

50th. Maybe it would be better. I mean, when you can have two takes on something, like on a movie, you're definitely better. Some sketches, you come off on the wrong foot and you're like, oh, my God, we came in wrong. And it's just not clicking. You can't save it. I want to step back and go, let me just come in again. And then you're like, it's too late. It's not, it's not working.

[A]

When something like when Ross Pro's running mate Adam Admiral Stockdale came out and it was kind of goofy. And then like three days later, Phil's doing that and I'm doing Perot and we have the car. And that was just what the show does best, better than anyone when it happens is the zeitgeist is all there and, and, but now you've got to compete with things like this, everything, and then you hit it and it's this relief valve. And that's when the show is magic. And I think in the modern era, with all the different people doing different kind of comedy takes all the time. It is more difficult, but that's still when it happens. It's, it's, it's great.

[C]

Well, it's going to be interesting when Shane hosts at the end of this month.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, why do you.

[A]

Why do you think so, Bill, what do you think?

[C]

You know, I think there's going to be real danger, you know, and it's like, holy, I don't know what's going to happen. And that's a show I want to watch live. That's more about him than the show. But, you know, and I also think he's one of the funniest people working right now.

[A]

Well, we, we mentioned that when we. We talked just casually that time, the. He. He's the guy right now, you know, and he. His take. It's. It's. It's just you. You just want to listen to him and going back to the show and how he. How he got fired. That's. That's an example of a live show where you want to see it, like, how is. How are they going to handle it, the show, and how is Shane going to handle it? So I'm sure they're thinking about different things, but usually when the show's at its best, it's going to go right at it, you know, like, maybe him and Bowen Yang will be in a rowboat somewhere. I don't know. But they usually go right at it.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know,

[B]

Bill, I have a. Don't get mad. I have a sports question.

[C]

Yeah, let's go.

[B]

Don't get mad. I know how you. I know your temper.

[C]

My temper.

[B]

Because people ask me this. I'm kidding. Is football allowed to be rigged? I know people say, is football rigged? But then they also say it's entertainment or NBA. Is that stuff allowed to fudge and twist because it's an entertainment company instead of just sports? I don't really get that.

[C]

Are you saying, could the super bowl have been scripted because Kansas City won and they won an overtime and Taylor Swift and her boyfriend kissed after the game?

[A]

That's part of it.

[B]

And how beneficial. How beneficial that is. Or even. I thought I saw a thing with Shaquille. I see basketball players sometimes online saying, oh, yeah, we're told the finals will be this long and who wins? And Shaq saying, when he got drafted, David Stern said to him, where do you want to play hot or cold? And he said, I want to play some more hot. And he goes, okay. And then the day of the draft, he goes, it'll be Orlando. And then he's saying this.

[C]

And he goes, that's a famous story. Yeah. I mean, that's weird.

[B]

I never heard that story. And I go, is that. So the. Are the ping pong balls really bouncing around? Or is it. You know, I don't know. It makes me think all this stuff. And then the defense is, we're an entertainment company. We don't have to play exactly by the rules. And you go, oh, like a movie. Like, we. We have to make it fun to watch. Yeah.

[C]

I don't. I don't think they can rig the games, but I used to write about this all the time.

[A]

I.

[C]

You know, it's same thing, like how you guys Would do impressions of people. I would always play up certain things and have fun with it. One of them was that David Stern, the old NBA commissioner, was, you know, this like, basically Veto Corleone and rigging all this stuff. And there was always this thing about when Patrick Ewing went to the Knicks. It was the first time they've read the lottery. There are seven envelopes, and he's reaching down, he grabs each one. And if you look briefly for like a split, split second, it looked like the Knicks one had a little bit of a crease on one of the sides.

[B]

Ah, I felt it.

[C]

Then there was a theory that they had frozen the envelope. So as he's feeling the envelope that was frozen, that was the one.

[B]

Great.

[C]

And it was like, you know, whatever. Like they just put it in like a carbon whatever. So it was like freezing cold when he touched it. So he knew that was the one. But that was always a recurring bit about him. Same thing when. When Jordan got suspended or when Jordan retired, there was always a thing. Oh, no, actually, Jordan got suspended for a year. The Shaq thing, that was always a story. There was stuff they did in the late 90s, early 2000s, where the perfect team for the league and the ratings always seem to win. And that like, most famously, it was a Philly versus Milwaukee. Allen Iverson, they're trying to get him into the finals of 2001 playing Milwaukee. And Philly shot like 100 more free throws than Milwaukee in the series. Yeah, There was the Kings Lakers game, which I'm sure you guys remember 2002, where if the Kings win game six, they win the series. Everyone on the Kings fouled out. So you see stuff like that. I do think they can kind of nudge the officials to say, hey, man, we don't like how, you know, Shaq is being defended. When they do this, you gotta call it. And then they start calling it early and the other team's like, wait, we were doing that last game. That's a foul now. Yeah, but yeah, there's. Because they can't tell stuff.

[B]

Players that are. Spend their whole life playing as hard as they can to get where they're. It's just hardest to buy. You're going to tell players not to play hard, but. But then you see like, oh, I. You watch all these, like. Which I would never see a lot of Chiefs, no holding calls. And then they just show over and over holding.

[A]

And you go, so.

[B]

I mean, they. The refs can't see everywhere, but sometimes if they want to, they can always find a Hold somewhere. Because it's kind of.

[C]

I mean, that's the Patriots going 19. And oh, and the helmet catch. Or if you watch the helmet catch, like four guys are holding for Eli. Cause he buys like an extra 4.4seconds. And there's just holding all over. The people are just getting mauled and the refs are like, cool. And that was the year we had Spygate for the Patriots. And, you know, the. The commissioner's office was against them. So the Patriots fans have always felt like that game was.

[A]

What's. What's the penalty rate per game right now? Because it seems like when I watch the NFL, there's an incredible play and then I immediately go looking for the flag.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, a flag. The best play I've ever seen. So I do think if you're going to rig professional sports and you want to kind of nudge it, that would be your way to do it without getting caught.

[C]

That was when gambling, sports gambling really took off the last 15 years. One of the first edges the best gamblers had was the referee tendencies.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And this was in NBA and NFL specifically, where it's like, oh, this. This team, they call more penalties and more penalties means, you know, this will happen. And this is the same thing with NBA. If somebody's more foul happy, then the over is going to hit more. And now all that stuff's kind of on the Internet. People know it, but when they assign certain refs to certain playoff games, then people are like, oh, of course they assign that ref. He always calls it for the road team. And so that stuff's out there. I think it's fun. Some people take it very seriously.

[B]

Well, when I'm losing millions every week on DraftKings, it's, how'd you do?

[C]

How'd you do in the playoffs? Spade

[B]

and the PLA. I do DraftKings, but I also do fanduel. I get with some guys and do like fantasy or guillotine leagues or weird stuff like that, just to keep the fun going up until the end. And I do okay in those. I'm not that great. It's just some. It's a good time killer.

[C]

I'm in the fantasy league with Jimmy's cousin and John Hammond. All those people where it's 11 people in the league, but the winner gets to vote somebody out at the draft the next year, which I think is the single best rule. So we have to show up. We have to show up. And then the guy who won's like, all right, Dana, I'm sorry, you're out and you just have to get your stuff and leave, and that's it. We don't see you for a year. Yeah, it's great. It's really, really. It gets super bitter, and you keep

[B]

going lower and lower with people. Or do you add a person?

[C]

No, it's the same 11, but we. We have 10 people in the league every year, plus the guy who got voted out.

[B]

Oh, oh, oh. So it's even.

[C]

So they get to come back a year later. They can't get voted out, but then somebody else gets voted out.

[B]

It has to be even. Dana, you don't understand.

[A]

I just. I'm going to ask you guys a question. I mean, I felt like I felt beat up after I watched the Super Bowl. Yeah, I don't think I've ever gotten that beat up. I'm from Bay Area, so I'm a Niner fan, but I. I like the Chiefs, too. I'm not fanatical, but I was rooting for them. But there was some frustration and penalties, and it was. And the way it ended, I was like, yeah, it wasn't satisfying. And if you're a Chiefs fan, I guess it was. But it was like that new fifth quarter. I. I wasn't paying attention. That had never been in the. You know, in the super bowl that I wasn't briefed for the overtime.

[C]

You were confused. It was. It was one of those things people wrote about it, but nobody actually thought it was going to happen. So then when it was happening, there was so much strategy to it that none of us had really totally considered. And the Niners ended up choosing to go first. But I was saying this week, to me, it's like going second was such an advantage because you become the blackjack dealer, see other guys going first, you know exactly what they're going to do, and then you can decide what you need to do to match whatever they did. Sure, yeah, is the advantage. But I don't think we realized that until we watched it.

[B]

Because if you get a touchdown, you're not just going for two. Probably because you could win with a touchdown with an extra point.

[C]

The chief said that. They said if they were scoring, they were getting two. They were.

[A]

They.

[B]

Yeah, they were going to try to go for. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So I told my wife it was over. I said, oh, no. Mahomes got the ball. They're going to do four days.

[B]

They move back so easily. When they came, I was like, oh,

[A]

it's going to be. Prevent defense. Just. And then it was just so predictable. When one team is Playing three downs, punt and. Or they did get the field goal and the other team is going to go four mentally to move the ball so well.

[C]

And then there's this inevitability with him, which I think all the best athletes have, where when the door is open like that, you're like, ah, here we go. Do you think he could host snl? Patrick Mahomes, he's kind of. He's kind of quirky.

[A]

I don't, you know, I think I get a hold. You know, we. We did the game. We thought we do. I came a little stutter.

[C]

That was pretty good.

[A]

Oh, I like that. Oh, I'm sure everybody does it on, you know.

[C]

No, that was. I haven't heard a lot of Mahomes.

[A]

That was good as far as like Pee Wee Herman.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

About my voice. Now I'm doing Bobcat goldplate, but that's okay.

[C]

Bobcat gold plate. As Pat Mahomes.

[A]

As Pat. But yeah, he's a supernatural talent. A word I like to use a lot. You know, he can for sure.

[C]

Well, you asked me about athlete host. I thought Kelsey was. Was actually really good last year or two years ago. Whenever he did it, I thought he was solid. I think he'd be an actor.

[A]

He's with caa. There's a master plan. I. I love it. It's just to make him into an international movie star. And he probably has the. The looks and the charisma to do that. It's just kind of. The Rock did it and was open about it.

[C]

You know, I'm ready for action stars again. I. I feel like we're in such a weird spot. Like the. The era I grew up with where we had Arnold and we had Sly, we had. Then Von Dam showed up and Seagal and all these dudes. And we just. Every year and we had like this embarrassment of riches. Carl Weathers had a chance. Y had a chance. And now it's like. It's all these Jason Statham guys. They know how to do this, like, choreograph kung fu stuff. And I don't know. I miss the days of just like these big dudes that we can kind of make fun of on a show like snl.

[A]

I like, watch.

[B]

I thought he was great. I thought his first five were great. Oh, yeah, he's great.

[C]

I was a legendary bad host.

[A]

Anybody seen Rick Richie in the pool hall scene? One of the great scenes. Anybody seen Richie? Anybody?

[C]

He. Yeah, he always played Italian dudes. He played like Nico Peretti and people like that.

[B]

Even though I didn't even know what that meant. When I was a kid, I just kept going, you better kick his ass, dude. And there's like eight guys and he walks in and starts being a dick. And I go, once in my life, I just want to be this guy. Just go up to a bunch of guys that are looking at me and go, the are you looking at?

[A]

Just for once.

[B]

And then beat the. Out of all.

[A]

He was. He was Steven Seagal when he, when he was the show as far as just this alpha male presence and stuff and talking about how he could choke anyone out or beating one office. Yeah, he was a person.

[C]

He was the legendary, reviled host, though, from your generation.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Wasn't he the least favorite?

[A]

You know, there's others I wouldn't mention. I, I kind of. I liked him.

[B]

I did too.

[A]

I.

[B]

It's hard to act tough when you ask for a scrunchie because I found him fascinating.

[A]

You'd go by the dressing room during the week and you'd hear a woman in a state of pleasure. It was just really interesting, you know.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What a lover that guy was.

[A]

I guess so. But he was just fun to talk to. What a trip. But he, you know, he, he was a little offended by Hans and Franz. We had to rewrite it because he thought we were making fun of him in the read through. And then we rewrote it so that you could beat up Arnold. You're the only one who could beat up Arnold, so. But I like the guy. I don't know, I like.

[B]

There's worse hosts, but you can't really name everybody. It's just too rude to name them. No one's gonna do that, you know.

[C]

Yeah. That becomes aggregated. It's like the Daily Mail. David Spade said so and so.

[B]

Yeah, they quoted for the rest of your life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But Marcy Klein told us she was the wrangler of hosts over the years and producer. Hi, Marcy. And she. Lauren would say so. And so was in their dressing room. They're not coming out. So she would have to go in there and they'd be crying and the show's on in four minutes.

[B]

Or.

[A]

Or just having a panic attack. And so. Yeah, you kind of have some empathy for the host. They're doing something that's impossible, you know.

[C]

Yeah. You know, one of the things, because I loved all the books, like I read. There's this great book that came out, I'm going to say mid-80s, though. It's called, I think Live from Saturday Night or Something like that. But it's about the first 10 years of the show and. And it was one of my favorite books. And then the oral histories came out with Jim Miller and Shells and a bunch of other stuff. But you'd read the history of the show and these things that happen. Never expecting youtubes coming and all these other things we could actually just go back and watch. So there was always that legendary story of Belushi when he was so up he couldn't go, you know, basically couldn't start. It was that I think when Kate Jackson hosted and they were like, it's 50. 50 whether he.

[B]

He.

[C]

He could die in the air if you put him on Lauren. And Lauren's like, I'll take those chances and puts him on and he's in the first sketch. So I've always read that story. And then you watch the clip and it's like, appaloos. She seems fine. Like, he's a little. He's a tiny bit green, but it doesn't seem like he's gonna die during this.

[B]

Sounds better. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So sometimes the video doesn't match up. Whatever the. The storm.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Dana. And we gotta. We gotta wrap up Bill, but anything else you have something good for Bill?

[A]

I. I don't like, forget top 10, whatever movies that you can revisit throughout your life.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So, like, you know, I see the Godfather every year pretty much. You know, there's. There's ones that you just see a lot of, you know.

[C]

So for me, Heat was the movie that started the Rewatchables. Because we did on my podcast, we just. It was the 20th anniversary and me and my friend Chris Ryan, we're just like, let's just do the podcast about Heat. It. People loved it. So we created the Rewatchables.

[A]

And you wanna do. That was the first time Pacino went full scream, which was amazing. Pacino is crazy in that.

[C]

Pacino's explained it after that. He's playing the character like the guys on cocaine.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's like, yeah, we know. We saw Heat.

[B]

We.

[C]

We know that's what you're doing. She's got a great ass.

[A]

But he.

[C]

He's up there.

[B]

Go ahead.

[C]

And then Boogie Nights, the two Godfathers are on all the time now because. Yeah, I think Showtime has just stripped all their library except for the Godfathers, and they're on constantly. And I'm amazing. I just could feel like I can dive in at any time. To those Shawshanks. A good one. Fiction. They. I mean, there's certain Ones that just.

[A]

Any science fiction in there?

[C]

Not for me personally, but for a lot of people. I mean, there's a ton of comedies. I mean, you know, Tommy Boy. I'm not just saying this because Spade's on this, but Tommy Boy has become that. The good thing about. Especially when you get older and you have young kids and you can start showing them the comedies, it's got to be one of the first six or seven, because I don't know how old a kid has to be to understand Farley was one of the funniest people of all time and how funny that movie is. But it's probably like age 4, where you can, like, fat guy in a little coat. It might even be age 3, but you can just indoctrinate that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

In that. So there, you know, there's. There's a bunch of the rewatchable.

[B]

Like, what about me in the window watching the girl at the pool? Are they we watching that part?

[C]

Maybe, like, fast. Is that cut out of.

[B]

I think that's cut out on tv. So there's even Joe Dirt. There's stuff that's cut out, and I never know it. And then I go. So there's people that are seeing these movies with a couple of parts missing because it's so rough for tv. And I'm like, they don't even know those extra part. I don't know. That's a bummer.

[C]

One of the cool things now is, like, with YouTube and all these different places, like, you know, Dana show from the mid-90s. Like, I don't know, 20 of those sketches are on YouTube now. That was one of those things where if you love that show and then it gets canceled and it's gone. There's no. Unless you taped it on your. On your vhs, it's gone. It's history.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And now kind of all that stuff has a second life. Like shows like Freaks and Geeks.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You can dive in that. Larry Sanders, which Shanling was always, like, famously never wanted it on dvd, was always, like, very prickly about it. And now, like, every episode's on the Max app, you know, so you.

[A]

And it's great. Nothing goes away. Now we're all in Larry Cyber Bits, next to. We're next to Godfather, next to everything else, just all there. Could Airplane be made today?

[C]

Yeah, I think the. The problematic ones. Animal House.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If you're talking about. Is this movie canceled now? Which we talk about a lot on the rewatchables, like Animal House, Revenge of the Nerds, Porkies, happens with Women.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't know.

[C]

I don't know what happened the first time. How you explain. Yeah, I don't even know how you explain it now.

[A]

Much less than 83 fast times at Ridgemont High.

[C]

Yeah, that. But that's a good movie, though. Like, at least it's well written.

[A]

Sean Penn is so good in that.

[C]

Yeah, but, yeah, some of the. Some of the 70s, 80s. I think airplane's fine, though.

[A]

I just think a really silly movie right now because the country's in such a bad mood. If that's just joke per minute, almost just physical gags would be a nice look.

[C]

It's weird that the Airplane Naked Gun type of movie, which I always. I mean, that's what we all grew up with. It just kind of is done. And then they would do the Top Secret and they would do the.

[B]

Yeah, oh, yeah.

[C]

The ripoff versions of those kind of movies. But it was like 20 years of them. Then they made the Scary Movie franchise. Now nobody does any of those.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Never know. I don't know. That's my final question.

[B]

Thank you, Bill.

[A]

Bill, it's been a pleasure I you

[B]

hanging out with us.

[A]

This was really fun. I forgot I was on a podcast or even even hosting a podcast. So thank you.

[C]

This was fantastic. I love you guys. You guys got a fantastic podcast.

[B]

Hey guys, if you're loving this podcast, which you are, be sure to click follow on your favorite podcast app, Give us review 5 star rating and maybe even share an episode that you've loved with a friend.

[A]

If you're watching this after episode on YouTube, please subscribe. We're on video now.

[B]

Fly on the Wall is presented by Odyssey and executive produced by Danny Carvey and David Spade, Heather Santoro and Greg Holtzman, Maddie Sprung Kaiser and Leah Reese, Dennis of Odyssey.

[A]

Our senior producer is Greg Holtzman and the show is produced and edited by Phil Sweet.

[B]

Tech booking by Cultivated Entertainment.

[A]

Special thanks to Patrick Fogarty, Evan Cox, Maura Curran, Melissa Wester, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Sean Cherry, Kirk Courtney and Lauren Vieira.

[B]

Reach out with us. Any questions be asked and answered on the show? You can email [e-mail] that's a U-A C-Y dot com.