RE-RELEASE - Bowen Yang

Summary

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Fly on the Wall with Dana Carvey and David Spade

Episode: RE-RELEASE - Bowen Yang (June 17, 2026)
Guest: Bowen Yang (SNL Cast Member, Comedian)

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Overview

This episode brings together veteran SNL alumni (and hosts) Dana Carvey and David Spade with current SNL breakout star Bowen Yang, for a freewheeling, insightful, and highly comedic look behind the curtain of Saturday Night Live and showbiz at large. The trio discuss the mechanics of SNL, the unique experience of Bowen’s rise from writer to cast member, iconic sketches, celebrity hosts, and what it all feels like under the relentless pressure of live comedy TV.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bowen's SNL Journey: Writer to Cast Member

• Initial Impressions:
  Dana and David praise Bowen’s humility and talent, noting his string of Emmy nominations and his ability to remain grounded despite his success.
  • “I think he was coming live off ‘Wicked’ before ‘Wicked 2’ came out… he’s hot as a pistol.” — Dana (02:05)
• Transition from Writer to Cast:
  Bowen details the process of submitting a tape, screen testing four times, and being hired first as a writer before moving into cast.
  • “I sent in a tape on a lark… [thought] they’re never going to hire, like, an effeminate Asian guy… I’m just gonna have fun with it.” — Bowen (24:14)
  • “Lauren just decided to throw another round of screen tests in March of the following season... holding deal until August. That was the fourth time… So, yeah, that was like... the first time I was on one. It felt so special.” — Bowen (24:37)
• The Writer’s Room Dynamic:
  Bowen speaks about his collaborative process, working with writers like Sudi Green, and emphasizes the importance of being available for every idea.
  • “My goal every season is just to, like, see, like, Cat. I don't know, just throw a wide blanket on everybody.” — Bowen (10:51)

2. SNL’s High-Pressure, Ever-Changing Environment

• The Rewrite Table & Last-Minute Chaos:
  The hosts dig into SNL’s rehearsal and rewrite process, the uncertainty of “cold opens,” and the stress unique to the SNL schedule.
  • “Now, I’m sure people have told you like we usually don’t have a cold open until Friday… Sometimes you don’t get a cold open read through until Saturday.” — Bowen (06:33)
• Handling Success & Resilience:
  Bowen and the hosts talk candidly about the stress, fear of bombing, and the armor SNL forges in a comic—humiliation, rejection, euphoria, and all.
  • “That place will always knock you on your ass, no matter how developed you feel you are.” — Bowen (08:40)
  • “It puts armor on you. You'll never be in another thing like this—live, unprepared, in the cards… You get resilient.” — David (31:12)
• Navigating Fairness, Rules, and Career Jealousy:
  Dana and David recount the unwritten rules about writing oneself into sketches, noting the rule-breakers and the uneven path to success.
  • “Don’t write yourself in… They’d say, that's five lines, give that to Mike Myers… It took a long time to learn that stuff.” — Dana (21:22)
  • “You're lucky if you have someone like Rob [Schneider] there to show you… If you do it well enough, no one's going to say anything.” — Bowen (22:39)

3. The Meta-Narrative of SNL & Being “Discovered”

• When a Sketch Breaks Through: The 'Iceberg' Case Study
  Bowen shares the behind-the-scenes origin of the now-iconic “Titanic Iceberg” sketch, citing collaboration, last-minute wardrobe, and inspiration from pop culture moments like Paris Hilton’s evasive Letterman interviews.
  • “Anna Dresden… said, maybe in April, for the anniversary of the Titanic sinking, you come on as the iceberg… promote your album… But what would that look like?” — Bowen (11:42)
  • “We wrote 11 pages… It was so indulgent… We were like, this is never gonna make it on TV… Laughing at each other in this office next to Lauren's.” — Bowen (15:42)
  • “That was all pulled from when Paris Hilton went on Letterman right after she got arrested…” — Bowen (16:54)
• The Five Questions Litmus Test for Sketches:
  Dana outlines a technique: a sketch is particularly strong if it naturally makes audiences ask five questions (“How did he get there? Why is he on Update?” etc.).
  • “If you can get the five questions for a sketch, then you're in this magic area… That has a lot of questions.” — David (13:13)

4. On Fame, Recognition, and Living in the Surreal

• How Does Iconic Status Feel?
  • “Someone asked Cher recently, what does it feel like to be an icon? And she goes, it doesn’t feel like anything.” — Bowen (33:31)
  • “I don’t know… It feels like nothing.” — Bowen on fame (33:33)
  • “We’ve been behind the curtain, so we kind of understand.” — David (34:13)
• The Role of Luck:
  • “I feel like the Mars Rover landing on that square inch of Martian soil… I could not have made it to the show, period, had it not been for a very specific set of alignments.” — Bowen (47:52)

5. Hosts and SNL’s Volatility

• Chosen Hosts, Good and Bad:
  The group discusses memorable hosts, including how Sydney Sweeney leaned into her public persona, and touch on infamous difficult hosts—carefully skirting actual gossip, but contextualizing the stress of live TV.
  • “She came and she was like, please, everyone, make jokes about my boobs… She was so raw sexual power that, like, anyone would be thrilled to, like, simulate sex with her.” — Bowen on Sydney Sweeney (37:22, 38:09)
  • “Some people deal with stress by lashing out… and being overly angry and it's all just anxiety and fear.” — David (42:55)
  • “Imagine you stay up till 4am writing a sketch and then the host is like, ‘I fucking hate this.’ Your nerves are frayed.” — Bowen (43:39)

6. LGBTQ+ Representation, Influence, and Reception

• Bowen’s Place in the Community:
  Bowen speaks candidly about being a gay Asian-American on SNL, fan reception, and the queer resonance of certain TV (“Just Shoot Me is queer canon”).
  • “A gay audience is always going to be a little leery and they're always going to be like, well, I could have done it better… But I think it's healthy.” — Bowen (45:13)
  • “Church Lady is very gay iconic. And David, I will say… ‘Just Shoot Me’ is like very queer canon.” — Bowen (45:52, 46:02)

7. Writing and Production: Methods, Collaboration, and Process

• How Sketches Are Written and Refined:
  The conversation details the nuts-and-bolts work of creating and shaping sketches from brainstorm to stage.

  • “What I've started to do… you would just type out everything everyone would say in a big old document… print it out… circle the jokes… rearrange.” — Bowen (52:56)
  • “You get it tighter and then you cut out more fat… Check mark what worked at read-through… If it didn't get picked, you go, well, I only had three check marks on eight pages.” — Dana (53:21)
  • “Sometimes Monday meetings, you pitch something, and [Lorne says], this is the week. Or he'll say, it's not ready yet.” — Dana (55:34)

• Lauren as “Human AI”:

  • “Lauren is almost like a human AI when it comes to that show, because a half-century of downloading everything.” — David (55:57)
  • “Right before air show is when Lauren is really the most amped up… Picking the show at like 10:45, that’s on Live to the World at 11:30.” — David (55:57)

8. Push Past the “Cringe”: Comedy’s Emotional Test

• Dealing with Bombing and Failure:
  Bowen discusses RuPaul’s wisdom about the “fear of looking stupid,” and how SNL is the “biggest arena for looking stupid.”
  • “SNL is like the biggest arena for looking stupid, for trying out an idea you think is brilliant… it bombs on live television.” — Bowen (59:00)
  • “You gotta develop your coping mechanisms fast or else you’re gonna go crazy.” — Bowen (59:20)
  • “We’re just clowns… I never want to comment on society. I just want to kill.” — Bowen (61:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On SNL’s Stress and Growth:
  “That place will always knock you on your ass, no matter how developed you feel you are.” — Bowen (08:40)

• On Writing and Ownership:
  “If you do it well enough, no one’s gonna say anything or take issue with it.” — Bowen (22:39)

• On Showbiz Luck:
  “I feel like the Mars Rover landing on that square inch of Martian soil… I could not have made it to the show, period, had it not been for, like, a very specific set of alignments.” — Bowen (47:52)

• On Dealing with Bombs:
  “You have to learn how to push past that embarrassment or else you’ll die.” — Bowen (61:07)

• On the Five Questions Rule:
  “If you can get the five questions for a sketch, then you’re in this magic area.” — David (13:13)

• On Sydney Sweeney:
  “She goes, ‘bowen, I’m on euphoria’… She is so raw sexual power that, like, anyone would be thrilled to, like, simulate sex with her.” — Bowen (38:09)

• On SNL Writing Process:
  “There's something important about printing it out and holding it in your hand, and then circling... tactile process, it works.” — Bowen (52:56)

• On Audience Feedback:
  “You want people to be helpless… That is very satisfying when people, you know, they’ve seen it multiple times and they're quoting lines.” — David (61:45)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Bowen's SNL Entry, Emmy Nominations: 01:27-02:34
• Writer’s Room Insights, Working with Sudi Green: 09:51-10:56
• Iceberg Sketch: Ideation to Execution: 11:42-16:22
• The ‘Five Questions’ Test: 13:13-13:59
• Rules for Writers and Performers at SNL: 21:22-23:57
• Bowen’s Experience of Fame and Recognition: 33:31-34:13
• Sydney Sweeney as SNL Host: 37:22-38:33
• Handling Difficult Hosts/Episodes: 42:17-43:55
• Working with LGBTQ+ Representation: 45:04-46:39
• Writing Process Tactics: 52:42-54:03
• Bombing on SNL and Coping Mechanisms: 59:20-61:07

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Tone and Style

The conversation is irreverent, self-deprecating, and filled with comedic storytelling, giving equal weight to mentorship, war stories, and the camaraderie particular to the SNL ecosystem. Bowen blends humble gratitude with sharp wit; Dana and David riff, roast, and dig into both nostalgia and practical realities.

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In Summary

This episode is an essential listen for comedy fans, offering a rare, candid, and frequently hilarious look into SNL’s mechanics, pressures, triumphs, and the unlikely, circuitous road to making sketch comedy history. Bowen Yang’s openness about his journey, struggles, and the sheer luck involved underscores the human heart behind TV’s longest-running comedy institution.

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Transcript

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[A]

Okay, we got Bowen Yang, one of the more recent SNL greats.

[B]

It does, I think five Emmy nominations and a win or something like that.

[A]

Wow, wow, wow. That's pretty. That's more than me. I'll tell you heard me.

[B]

He ties me. Whoops.

[A]

You didn't. Did you get that many? What a ripoff. I want to recount.

[B]

I'll tell you how it's done later. Anyway, Bow and Yang, this is a really fun podcast. He's a cool, cool dude. Funny, interesting and humble.

[A]

I think he was coming live of Wicked before Wicked 2 came out.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, we caught him right, right in that. Because he's hot as a pistol.

[A]

I think what happened is he's doing a lot of movies, doing snl and I think I read at a certain point he felt like, well, it can go on without me. And he said Lauren called him and said, maybe do another a half season and then help with the new guys. And yes, and he said, great, if Lauren asks for something, I'll do it, which is nice. So here he is. He's gonna tell you all about everything.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Oh, Yang, If there's a movie about Me, Dana. I don't want everyone beating me up. They're like, this is his life. He was always getting beat up. And so my descendants would not like that.

[B]

I hope the start of the movie is Chris Farley holding you over his head and throwing you across a basketball court. That's the cold opening.

[A]

That's in between takes. Yeah, that's real.

[B]

What would be the sound that our sweet friend Chris would make? Then he goes, that's good. Yeah.

[A]

He gets nervous.

[B]

It's great to have Bowen on, because now we're talking to. Because when I went on Smartless, I said, oh, I'm gonna make this easy. I know how to. I know what a guest is like. So you do a podcast. So it's already. You get the whole thing. As opposed to do can I ask questions or what do I say?

[C]

I might not, but I think. I think every show has its own unwritten set of rules or whatever. And I guess so you just gotta, like, learn how to get in there. You guys are really good at it, though.

[A]

Thank you. We like to send 200 episodes over to each guest just to get a feel for it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So they can listen all the way. What about Sarah Sherman? What's wrong with her? That's my first question.

[B]

What happened to her?

[C]

What's wrong with her? Are we all. Are we all, like, in this limerence phase with Sarah? I think the three of us are all equally obsessed with Sarah Sherman.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And we're coming at different angles.

[B]

She's a one off, and it's so refreshing. I mean, you can't even. I couldn't know. I wouldn't know how to describe her. Yeah, she's so charming.

[C]

She has this. She has like an intergenerational appeal. She has like an inter. Whatever gender appeal. But I think, like, as a gay guy, I'm obsessed with her. And then in YouTube, as straight guys are obsessed with her, like, she just has this universal appeal that I. I need to get to the bottom of. And I would love to have this whole episode be about her.

[A]

We have to get to the bottom of it.

[B]

I'm happy to.

[A]

She has. She had me at mullet and then she was funny and then she's bananas

[C]

and then cute as a Batman.

[A]

And then she goes on the road and she's so funny because I just see clips and I'm like, sarah, what's going on on the road? She goes, I don't know exactly, but it's very funny. And she's got a great show. So. But really, enough about her.

[B]

Let's bring on our second guest today, Sarah Sherman.

[D]

Boom.

[C]

I would be so thrilled.

[A]

She would love it.

[B]

She throws a party wherever she goes, whenever I've seen her. And then we're invited and sort of like someone, at least on the surface who's knows how to navigate life a little bit, maybe not take it too seriously. I don't know. You know her so much better than I do at this point. Because you've seen her under pressure, under stress.

[C]

Sure.

[B]

How is she under stress? And how are you under stress as it get on that freakin show?

[C]

Uh huh. I think we're okay. She is, you know, her and Dan Buller, bless them both. But they will stay at 30 Rock until like 2:30 in the morning on a Thursday. Trying to like get every page right. And I am someone who is gonna call it at like 9:30 and be like it's time to go home.

[A]

If you, you know, the writer's table is what he's talking about. Probably the rewrite day. They, they read the sketches on Wednesday. I'm telling our audience it doesn't know anything. 200 episodes, they don't understand it at all. So they. And then Thursday they pick the sketches and writers would come in maybe with one of the cast members, whoever wrote it together. And the table rewrites, is that sort of still how it goes?

[C]

They go sketch by sketch, sketch by sketch ends with. I mean now. I'm sure people have told you like we usually don't have a cold open until Friday. So the cold open does not get a rewrite table usually.

[A]

Oh, does a cold open do a

[C]

read through Most of the time you don't get a cold open read through until Saturday. At Saturday tables. It's pretty, it's pretty wild.

[B]

Especially if it's political. You want to wait as long as possible in case somebody, some crazy, crazy thing happens. Which is the rhythm we're in now as a culture. You feel like it's high hurdling this and now this and then what's next? It could be good. Don't know. But I was just curious about how relaxed you seem. I mean it seems like this is a trajectory of on camera. You know, it's like for our audience, you were first a writer and then you became a feature player. And you seem to. Then the audience discovers you and then there's this sort of massive leap that you make forward when they know you. Here comes Bowen and you made them happy every time they see you. What phase of that are you in right now? I Think you're in the last one, but. Maybe.

[C]

But did you guys ever. Did you guys ever, like, take this time? Let's say this time, if you're recording this in, like, late August, like, right before the season starts, you buckle down just a little bit and you're like, let me, like, get stuff in the tank. And it never gets used, but you're like, let me just, like, make some.

[A]

Of course,

[B]

that's the thing for sure, is that you start thinking of sketch ideas in August or anything you think of, it'll never make it onto the show. You just feel like you wanna have ideas. But then the week comes and there's nothing like that week.

[C]

Right. But to answer your question, I think I'm in the stage now where. And I don't know if this is me tricking myself into anything, but I always wanna go into each season as if it was my first year. Does that sound pathetic or something?

[B]

No, no. I think that's good. To never not kind of worry a little bit is healthy. You know, I got this.

[C]

But you have to. But, like, that place will always knock you on your ass. Like, no matter how developed you feel like you are. Right. Like, and especially, like, I. I'm really curious about what will happen if the show is still around for when I, like, return and just say hi to people or something. Just. Just to, like, visit the halls and, like, say hello. Like, I wonder what that'll feel like, because I. That'll be bizarre.

[B]

Have you ever gone back to your high school on a Sunday afternoon and walked around? That's what it feels like.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I went back.

[A]

I go, everyone's so tiny. These rooms are so tiny because I

[C]

grew so much when I left.

[A]

And then I came back to host and I was like, oh, my God, I fit in here. Yeah. I think there's. When you're in the summer and you're trying to think of ideas and you're just really doing anything to get a head start, that's kind of terrifying. Do you have a writer? I. I think Punky. We just talked to Punky, and she said she had a writer or she.

[B]

She looks great.

[A]

Or she was assigned a writer or maybe. Or just one kind of gravitated. Do you have someone they let you bring on, or you just work with everybody?

[C]

I think I tend to work with everybody. I was working with Sudi Green, who I went to college with, and she got hired. She was, like, the first person in our little coterie of comedians doing sketch at UCB, like, mid 2000. And tens. She kind of got raptured up into that spaceship first, and we were like, oh, my God, someone made it. And then she kind of shepherded my little lamb ass for the first season at snl. And then she ended up working with Maya and Marty a lot. And then she helped Maya with her Kamala. I think she'll be back for the fall when Maya's back. And then I. Sooty. So it was Sudi Green, and then she left. And then there's a writer, Celeste Diem, who also works with Sarah. But they're gonna leave. But I try to sort of, like, my goal every season is just to, like, see, like, Cat. I don't know, just throw a wide blanket on everybody.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You want everybody to write something. You want to be available for every idea. Any.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And I think, oh, this is just something I think you might find flattering or interesting. It was for us. So we first started this. Tina Fey was like, our fourth guest. Oh, I remember. And so we got to discuss seeing SNL and comedy. Yeah. And then she just said, have you seen Bowen Yang do the Titanic iceberg? She just said, I'm not saying it as eloquently. She did. She said, it's something new. It's an angle that's just different. And I thought that was cool. I didn't. I hadn't met you at that point. I thought, what an interesting thing to say. But it was. I don't know how to describe that coming about, because that kind of. That landed hard.

[C]

Yeah. And I. You know, no one expected it to, but it was this thing that we did at Read through, and it kind of just happened, and people were like, oh, that was cute. But it was this idea that Anna Dresden, who used to work there, was the head writer there for a season, had, where we were just on a hiatus, and she was like, maybe in April, for the anniversary of the Titanic sinking, you come on as the iceberg and you just want to promote your album. And I was like, oh, that's a hill. That's funny. But what would that look like? I don't know.

[A]

So weird.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What's the attitude? Blah, blah, blah. But then April rolled around, so a couple months had passed, and then I was like, hey, were you still thinking about that Titanic idea? I think that's. I still don't quite know what it is, but I think it's like. I was like, it sounds really funny. So let's just put clay on the table and get to the bottom of what it is.

[A]

And then if it sticks with you, it's also a good idea because you're like, I was just thinking. Yeah. About it. Yeah.

[C]

Maybe that. Maybe that's, like, one little secret. Right. It's like, if. If the idea is still. If it's still sticky in a couple months, then it's probably worthwhile in some,

[A]

like, anything in life. You think of something later, you think of it again, and you're like, that was kind of funny. Even though you don't. Haven't cracked the code yet. You're like, there's definitely something there.

[C]

There's something there.

[B]

I think that you had to see it, like, once.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Seeing is the thing was on your head and the whole thing. And then.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no wink or tiny nod to that. You just are the iceberg. And we. The. How did you get there? Why aren't you freezing? Why are you on Saturday Night Live? I mean, I would say if you can get the five questions for a sketch, then you're in this magic area. Wow. And that has a lot of questions. Yeah.

[C]

Wait, have you guys talked about this? This five questions thing?

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Dana's been holding it.

[C]

I love it. Yeah, Dana. What the heck? I love that.

[B]

How did he get there? What is the iceberg? Why is it. Yeah, what is he on? Why is he on Update? What is it on another sketch? So the cast know the icebergs there? I don't know. It's something that hit me at one point. I don't know if it's that profound, but it is fun to think of sketches that really crushed. Does it have five questions?

[C]

Wait, I'm writing this down. I'm writing this down. Analog. I'm not even typing it. Everybody. I'm picking up a pencil and I'm writing five questions. That's hip. No. And then so we did a table read. It was fine. It was kind of in the mix throughout the week. And then I forget what it was like, Pete might have. Like, there might have been questions about whether or not Pete was gonna come back that week. Cause he was kind of like, dipping in and out because, you know, that was his want. And so it was Pete. It was Pete. And I think there was just a question mark on what the lineup was gonna be for the show. And then Friday night at midnight, we get the call from one of the producers. We get the text from one of the producers after the meeting with Lauren on Friday night. They were like, okay, I think Bowen's update is a go. And then at that point, Anna and I Were, like, texting each other pictures of, like, kids in Halloween costumes from 1998, like, dressed up as the Titanic and dressed up as the iceberg. We're like, maybe it's this. Maybe it should be, like, a dinner jacket. No, maybe it should be, like, a white leather jacket instead. And then we'd, like, lean on a dinner jacket, and she'd have these, like, jewels on them. And so it all came together over the course of, I don't know, less than 24 hours.

[A]

When can you tell wardrobe? When do you. When's the latest you could tell?

[C]

I think the. The worst I've. I've. I've done is day of. But not before, like, meal break. Meal break. So, like. Like 4. Like 4 or 5pm but it's like, you know, like, the ask has to be reasonable. It can't be like, can we get, like, a whole, like, right, I want

[B]

to come in on a horse.

[A]

Do you have an iceberg costume on you? That's actually super funny. Not just a regular one.

[C]

Exactly. But it was. Yeah. Friday night at midnight. And then. God, we went in, like, the typical update length. Page length right now is like, seven pages to clock in like, three and a half minutes. We wrote 11 pages. And the entire. We were just. It was so indulgent and, like, masturbatory. We were just like, this is never gonna make it on tv. This is so crazy.

[B]

Like, what.

[C]

We were like. We were just laughing at each other in this office next to script on nine, like, right across from Lauren's office. And we were like. It felt delirious. It felt very fever. Dreamy. We were like, this is never gonna go.

[A]

Like, if it works. Minute one, that's what you want. We were talking about this. About one joke. They get it. You push out. They start laughing because you look funny. Then they get the idea, and then they're on board. But if they're not, That's a long

[B]

11 pages, I think. Also remembering it. He was defensive. Didn't. The character. Didn't want to really talk about the Titanic, was kind of angry. How do you think I felt? And all that. And then wants to promote his electro pop band. So those things were kind of inspired, you know, because it could have gone different.

[C]

Thank you. Well, that was. That was all pulled from when Paris Hilton went on Letterman right after she got arrested. And all Letterman wanted to ask her about was her getting arrested, and all she wanted to talk about was her perfume line. And so we were just.

[A]

Great. That's a good analogy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

There you go, that's it.

[C]

That was it. We inspect. But that was, that was it. Like we just like, like Anna was like, what? Like, what can we. What does this scan on? What does this map onto? And I was like, I think like my favorite Letterman interview ever is him talking to Paris Hilton. And so like let's like just not drag and drop. But it was just, it was, it was a nice one. One. So that, that's the whole story.

[A]

I can drop.

[B]

Summer, what do you think about Summer coming up?

[A]

Sneaks up on me.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

It is coming up. I'm trying to juggle plans, juggle meals and enjoy the weather. Instacart's made that easier. I can sit outside, build my car with everything I need for the week, not have to step away from what I'm doing.

[B]

I've been leaning on delivery through Instacart for meal prep, especially David, like getting fresh veggies, proteins, even those perfectly ripe avocado. I set my preferences once and it's so seamless. It saves me a lot of time and makes sure I'm getting all the quality I want. And the convenience is huge.

[A]

You know, when I'm busy or just don't feel like making a store run, I can order in the morning and have everything ready for the same day. And sometimes in as fast as 30 minutes. It just fits into my schedule instead of the other way around. Instacart brings convenience, quality and ease right to your door. So you can focus on what matters most. Download the Instacart app now and get

[B]

groceries how you like and do it instantly. History that Doesn't Suck is a legit,

[C]

hard hitting American history podcast told through entertaining stories. As we approach America's 250th anniversary, now might be the time to go back and learn how we got here. With more than 200 episodes, you can binge your way decade by decade, defining events to define an event from the founding into the 20th century. Join me, Professor Greg Jackson for History that Doesn't Suck. An Odyssey podcast available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

Hey, before we jump back into the show, let's take a quick break. All right, not just any break. This is a refreshing break with Snapple. We all know about Snapple's iconic real facts, so let's take a minute to go over some of my faves.

[B]

Snapple Real fact. 455 movie trailers used to come on at the end of the movies, but no one stuck around to watch them.

[A]

I've heard that. Snapple Real Fact 831. Adults laugh only about 15 to 100 times a day, while preschoolers laugh an average of 300 times a day.

[B]

Snapple Real Fact, 1983. The first player drafted to play pro football never played in the league.

[A]

That's interesting. Snapple Real fact 1274. Kickball is referred to as soccer baseball in some parts of Canada. Hmm.

[B]

So grab a Snapple. Take a second. Enjoy the moment.

[A]

Because let's be honest, this might be the most refreshing part of your day. Snapple. Make your break more interesting.

[B]

I have a question for both of you. Because I came in as a full cast member. You guys came in and feature writers. And is there an advantage and. Or a disadvantage because you're seeing the show, you're seeing the cast members do their thing, you're kind of being acclimated to the idea of it. And then I do want to know how it came about. Was it always pretty obvious that your goal was to be a cast member? And it was almost like a nod. You do one year, you write, you find your lane, and then you play like a fucking iceberg on uptake. Really. Hey, Svengali. David.

[A]

I'll let Bowen answer this one.

[B]

Bowen, you're first. What do you mean?

[C]

Oh, okay. But I would love to hear David's answer.

[A]

I'll do it. My answer is. Very well. It's 22 minutes long. Here it is. I was born in Arizona. Oop, Back too far.

[B]

Oh, boy. Here we go again. I'm just gonna take a little break.

[A]

Sandler. When I tell him a he goes back too far. Speed it up. So anyway, I basically was a writer performer with Schneider, but they said, don't write yourself in. They said, for sure don't. We got so many people. I didn't want to be a writer. I didn't know how to be a writer. So write yourself in maybe a line or two here when they have punky kids. And then if you had too much, they would pull you out. They'd say, that's five lines. Give that to Mike Myers. And I'm like, ah, fuck. So you do that. It's just so hard to write for myself already and then write for someone else and writing a sketch. So it did take a long time to learn that stuff. And then.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we came back for the next year, and Schneider put himself in Copy Machine. And I was flabbergast. I'm like, you're breaking all the rules. And then it got on, and I was like, wait, no one Said it was fair. And I was like, oh, it's not fair. You took it out of my mouth. I was about to say that. So it's okay, because I think that technicality, I learned was. It was something that they said, if you do it the best, you can write it for yourself, but if it's just a funny idea for a sketch, give it away. So Rob did that? Well, yeah.

[C]

Well, that's funny, though, because I feel like you're lucky if you have someone like Rob there to show you that you can just break the rules. And if you do it well enough, no one's gonna say anything or no one's gonna take issue with it.

[A]

Right. You know, that's what happened that we. I. I was like, what are you doing, dude? And he. But he's very like, fuck that shit. He would always write himself in and make them take on. Adam wrote himself in so fast. And I was like, this is the way we do it here. Because I was brainwashed. But. And when it worked, I'm like, well, what am I doing? But they had hookier stuff, so it was harder for me. So. But I could see it. Like, Adam's stuff was so a little nutty, a little left to center, and it was really him. And I'm like, shit. I am not really like that. I'm more dry jokes and whatever the fuck I do. So it took longer to get a foothold, but it was. They kind of skipped some of the rules and it worked out.

[B]

Yeah. And I have to. True confessions. Remember when you came to my office that one night you were a feature writer, and I said, first thing you'd never do is write yourself into a sketch. And I regret that. Well, it's true, though. My point is that. My other point is that we all had seen you, we knew you were funny. Me and Dennis and Kevin, we knew you and Schneider were standups. We'd seen you kill at club. So when I saw Schneider out there doing the Copy machine. Yeah, that's something Rob would do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Bowen.

[C]

Yeah. I. I screen tested four times. By the time Lauren was like, they

[B]

saw you at ucb.

[A]

Oh, really?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that where they saw you in New York or where in New York?

[C]

It was New York. I sent. I sent in a tape on a lark. I was like, they're never going to hire, like, an effeminate Asian guy. Like. Like. Like, why would they? There's no need for that. Like, let me. Let me. Let me think the way Lorne Michaels thinks. Like, I'm not gonna. They have so many. They've got Leo there, they've got Rob. I was just like, this is just never gonna happen, so I'm just gonna have fun with it. And then tape was kind of just cleared each stage gate. And so I did like the UCB showcase and then did screen test callback one year. Then they and Lauren just decided to throw another round of screen tests in March of the following season. And then holding deal until August. And then that was the fourth time holding deal. And so. Holding deal. So, yeah, that was like. It was the first time I was on one. Like, it felt so special.

[B]

Holding deal at home.

[A]

That means what, you get paid, do nothing until they decide little bit of

[B]

money and you're might be on television.

[A]

Wet the beak.

[C]

Yep, wet the beak. It was. It was like. It was peanuts and like. But at the time, it just.

[A]

SNL.

[B]

It's a big deal.

[C]

Right, right, right.

[B]

It's $78 a month, but you. If you stretch it, it'll. It'll last.

[C]

So. And a movie pass.

[A]

It's from my personal checkbook.

[B]

And did you have a breakthrough one live with everyone? Did you have to do that thing or was you just gradually, all of a sudden they called you and said you're a writer.

[C]

No, it was. So after the tape, it was the live thing at ucb, so they just did like a live showcase with a bunch of people. And then from then on, it was just screen tests. And then I remember my first meeting with Lauren, I fucked it up because the first thing I. The first thing I said was, I also grew up in Canada and I can speak French. Like, I like that was. And he saw through that immediately and was like, who is this?

[B]

Yeah, totally. How did you dig yourself out of that hole?

[C]

I did it. I stayed in the hole. I stayed in the hole and then thought it was done. But then the second meeting, he was in la. It's always so crazy.

[A]

It's never. It's never normal situation.

[B]

Never normal.

[C]

No. He was at the Beverly Hills Hotel because he was doing the Emmys that year because Chan Che and Colin were hosting.

[B]

And so in room 31, it's a suite.

[A]

I always get that.

[B]

Yeah, that's his hotel. He's a creature.

[A]

I have.

[C]

Of course.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna go for a walk.

[C]

Huh? He loves his walk in Beverly Hills. We're revealing.

[A]

I'm like, jesus, I thought we were lost. I go, lauren, where's the Beverly Hills Hotel? We walked and walked. I'm like, I thought, this is a cute little jaunt. But it was, Honestly, it was. It's exactly five miles. I'm like, no, this is. I have to prep a lunch.

[B]

He was getting his 10,000 steps. I had a long hike with him with a bunch of people on Long Island. And eventually, at one point, I believe he did say, oh, trees are violent.

[A]

Think about it, Dana.

[B]

Root systems and there's this aggression. It's a bioevolutionary thing. Look into it, please. And I need another hit fucking character. No,

[C]

I think, I think Dana's got, Dana's got the most, like, timbre, perfect Lauren impression, I think.

[B]

I love Bill Haders. I love different incarnations of them. Bill's is very laid back and sort of right here. But so, so you get hired. I was curious just for a second at UCB when they would do Showcase. You were. You kind of did. You knew you had something. Were you killing it eventually on stage? At ucb pre snl, we were doing, I mean, I'm assuming you were doing, you know.

[C]

Yeah, we were doing, like, monthly shows. We did like a monthly sketch show there. Like, they called them Spanx. And then it turned it into like a monthly show. And so it was like a half hour little sketch thing. And we were doing stuff at the Pit and I was doing, like, I went to school in the city and met a lot of, like, cohort people there and it was nice and, like, I left.

[A]

Did you audition with anyone that made it all the way?

[C]

Did I audition with anyone that made it all the way? So the first year I auditioned was the same year as Heidi and Chris Redd and Luke Null. So they were people. And then Andrew Dudes Meukes was also that year and he got hired as a writer first as well. Then the next year, I came on to write for just one season. And then when Lauren called me to, like, give me cast, he was like, this was the plan all along. I had to let you cook. And if I threw you out there without a paddle, would have been irresponsible because there's going to be a lot of eyes on you. And I was like, okay, great. I mean, I, I, I, it was a really stressful year because I, I, like, David was like, I don't identify as a writer. I don't know how to write for myself or other people, let alone. But then I'm, But I'm glad I had that time, though, that gestation, because, like, I would have, like, I saw how the sausage got me, you know, and, like, it kind of demystified it.

[A]

So I literally only Figured out how Sausage was made, but not how to write a sketch. But, you know, also, I don't think

[B]

you have, like, I wrote a sketch about how Sausage

[A]

write it up, Dana.

[B]

We had three episodes, but I.

[A]

When you see these other guys go by you on a rocket ship, that's the hard part. On my own, I could just sit there and learn, like, school.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But every two weeks, someone else is getting hired, and then on the show, I'm like, wait. And then the. The insult was. I think after two years, he was like, we're gonna keep you on as another feature player. I'm like, I'm the only one left, am I just. I'm not full cast. So that was humiliation. But, like, yeah, again, I walked out. When it all is said and done, it feels like I was on there and did what I should do, but it was never. When I was there, I never walked away. Nailed it. I was like, fucking walking with, like, with a limp going, I don't know what happened.

[C]

It's just hindsight. It only, like. It only comes in. Yeah. I mean, do we think that that's, like, character building, or do we think that that's traumatic? Both.

[A]

It's been trauma since. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it was really tough. Yeah. And. But I got a lot out of it. I think it depends. I mean, some people you don't hear from again, and that's just how it works. And that's probably what happens. And so you leave there. I remember one time we were doing movies, and I said, I think I want to leave. And they go, where are you going to go? You leave snl, then what happens?

[B]

I'm like, you'd already done Tommy Boy,

[A]

which was a smash. I was like, wow, I don't want to leave because I'm getting more stuff. And they go, but that stuff dries up if you leave. Because I didn't have time to do it all. And I was like, never quite got that. And then later you go, oh, if you work, you usually get more work. But that didn't make any sense. And then it did later. But I was like, I.

[B]

To your quite. I would just say you. It puts armor on you. You'll never be in another thing like this. Live unprepared in the cards. All the nonsense, all your relatives watching. They're not using you so much this week, you know, so you get resilient. I mean, you are coming out in a huge movie. I don't want to jump ahead because I have some sketches I want to get to. Yeah, wicked. Wicked. And so that. And then snl, I mean, it's a little bit of a. And then your podcast is. Yeah, it's huge. I mean, it's, it's. It's right in the top 20 out of 4 million. So there's a lot of success happening to you right now. And I had a phase like that with Wayne's World and so forth and so on. So what do you. I am a licensed therapist. But how are you feeling? Are you. You're in your sixth season as a cast member or going into your six season.

[C]

Going into sex. Going into sex. Yeah.

[B]

And I feel just for the audience, I think three or four Emmy nominations. Oh, like, stacked in a row.

[C]

It wasn't. It's not. It wasn't. I didn't do the Dana thing of consecutive, but. Yes.

[A]

Is that what Dana did?

[C]

Dana. I think Dana has like five consecutive and consecutive years.

[B]

Six.

[C]

Pretty cool. Six.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[B]

And then seven for the win. Yes. We'll get this online for people listening.

[A]

No, but go to a side chat for that.

[B]

I'm just, I'm going around on my head because I'm watching your stuff. And it's like, as you know, Lorne loves people. Well, he loves comedians, basically. He loves us. He loves funny people. He also loves funny people who can go and score and make the audience really happy consistently. And that's where you're. Where you are. I mean, I've watched all your stuff. It's like you're landing constantly on that show.

[C]

My hit rate is average. I like, there's.

[B]

There's some duds. All right. I'm also an attorney.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The doctor sketch with Ryan Gosling. Oh, God.

[C]

Stop, stop, stop, stop.

[B]

Bong is straight with Sydney Sweeney. Oh, yeah. George Santos on Update in the Col. You know, just things that are kind of killer viral stuff. Now, I'm going to let you talk.

[C]

It doesn't, it doesn't feel. You're asking me how it feels. Like, surreal. Well, it was, sure. Totally surreal. But someone asked, and I'm not comparing myself to Cher or anything, but someone asked Cher recently, like, what does it feel like to be an icon? And she goes, it doesn't feel like anything. Like when you guys. Don't you guys agree? Like, like when, when someone's like, what did it feel like? Or what does it feel like to have been on snl? And I'm like, I don't know. Feels like. Doesn't feel like anything. Right.

[B]

Most of the time, people in life, unless you're on a Chain gang or building things. Most of us just hang out most of our lives.

[C]

It's an easy.

[B]

Even at snl, you're hanging out. Then in between shows, you're hanging out. Right now we're hanging out, which is a miracle.

[C]

You're hanging out.

[B]

And so, yeah, I remember the first time I got recognized and my wife said, you're famous. It really shocked her. And then it made her see other famous people as just people. So, yeah, we've been behind the curtain, so we kind of understand.

[C]

Right. You know, but it's. But, but that, but that. That still feels like a mystifying thing to you. Like, if you, if you see someone else go through it, is that, Is that fair to say?

[B]

I. I relate to it. I'm interested in it when I watch because I can get Saturday Night Live, which is great, on peacock, at 8:30. On the west Coast.

[C]

On the West Coast.

[B]

So I'm watching it live a lot more. I get the YouTube clip, so it's kind of fun. And I watch, you know, I notice cast members getting confidence, a sketch they're breaking through that Saturday Night Live is unintentionally, I think, unless Lauren is more brilliant than people give him credit for that. It's a reality show. You take unknowns, you put them on this show and see how they go. Or you take a football player, hey, maybe that guy can do sketch comedy. So the show is always entertaining and interesting to me because I'm kind of watching it from this other perspective.

[C]

And I think I get caught up in the meta narrative sometimes, especially now. I'm like, oh, like, I'll get ripped into, like a headline or into some pickup every now and then. I'm like, oh, God, this is so unfair. This is so stressful. This is not what I meant. Or this is not what I was doing, you know, while, like, Chappelle was standing on stage with me. But it's like. But it ends up. I think Lauren understands that it ends up being this thing that, like, is what the show is, which is like, the way that, like, people's emotions are on display for this and the way that, like, the culture changes or the pendulum swings one way and then back the other. And, you know, I think, like, it's all I. I think Lauren has an awareness of it. I think Lauren knows that it's a reality show.

[B]

Well, Steve Higgins said that he, he wrote the Constitution, basically, and it's a liquid, you know, it changes with.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I come from the Analog era. I mean, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Basically landlines and fact machines.

[A]

And I think Warren likes pickup.

[B]

Yeah. Would like pick.

[A]

If you make some noise, you're coming back.

[C]

I think that's what he wants.

[A]

He just doesn't want anybody flatlining.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

And if they are. I remember, by the way, just to go back, I just saw the Sydney Sweeney one. I like when Heidi at the beginning casually goes, he just plays gay as a shortcut to jokes. Shortcut to laughs.

[C]

I was like, shortcut to laughs.

[A]

The shortcut to laughs. And then there's a couple other burns. It was pretty funny. But that was a good one. She was great in that.

[C]

She was great.

[A]

She seems like, what a score. I think Kim Kardashian did a nice job, sort of surprisingly. I don't think Sidney is a surprise that she was good, but it's just good when people. Everything kind of falls in there in the right way on a show because it can go the other way so easily.

[C]

Totally. I think she's an example of a host who came in and understood how she was being consumed and perceived already. Like, she came and she was like, please, everyone, make jokes about my boobs. Like, she was. She was practically begging everybody to write, say no more. Say no more. And then she, like, went down to her dressing room on Thursday, right before the tape. I was like, just so you know, like, we're getting an intimacy coordinator, and if you're at any point uncomfortable, you know, you can tap out. Like, if, you know, if we make out and you hate it, no problem, we can cut it. And she goes, bowen, I'm on euphoria. But then she also said. But then she also said.

[B]

She goes, you're.

[C]

You're. You're. You're living every gay man's dream by, like, having sex with me. And I'm like, how do you know that? Like, she knows that. Like, she is so. She's so raw sexual power that, like, anyone would be thrilled to, like, simulate sex with her. It's so crazy. Like, were there hosts like that when you guys were there? Where, like, it was just like, some, like, just had.

[A]

I had crushes on hosts, for sure. Sometimes you see someone that's really, like, an actress that's great, and they come on. And then, like, anything in the world, their personality or their talent during the week just shoots them even higher. You're like, oh, my God, they're either super cool or they roll with anything, or they're just good in the sketches or nice, everybody. And then you're like, it goes up. Or some people, they can lose points.

[C]

Of course.

[A]

I think Sweeney seems like a good one. And Dana worked with a lot of great people too. Yeah.

[B]

This goes back. It was Dolly Parton. Phil and John are talking to Dolly and she's got a little. Cut the thing. Whole thing. And she goes, all right, well, I'm gonna look away so you boys can look. Let's get it over with.

[C]

And then, you know, her monologue was great because camera just kept going over to her cleavage. That was a great monologue.

[B]

Yeah, she had a sense of humor about the whole thing. And when you talk to her, she's really just kind of this brilliant songwriter. I mean, she created Dolly Parton. But, you know, the theme to Bodyguard I shall always.

[A]

Was Britney Spears the one that had the boob monologue where her boobs.

[C]

The moving tits.

[B]

Yeah, that was so funny.

[A]

What a great, easy, not easy idea. Just a good idea that worked.

[C]

Yeah. She had to buy into it.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[A]

Oh yeah, you were about to tell us the host that was mean to everyone.

[C]

Yeah, I'll tell you guys off Mike.

[B]

You're trying to. Trying to.

[A]

We were going to be on Mike.

[C]

No, but this was.

[A]

Yeah, we got in trouble for saying Steven Seagal wasn't. I mean we all. Everyone gets in trouble for saying something, but that's what everyone asks. And then you can only dodge it for so long or you just try to explain why they weren't great. I heard Paris Hilton was not great, but that was after I left. And then you go, why? Or Beaver. I've heard so many people. But some it just doesn't work out and some are fighting it and there's a reason. But it's scary. It's scary place.

[B]

Could be. Some people deal with stress by lashing out. Yeah, I've seen that. And being kind of overly angry and it's all just anxiety and fear.

[C]

You know, it was just. I think. I think the. The layer on my little quote, my little poll which by the way, like I was like. It was like. It was like on Andy Cohen show and they play this game and so

[A]

like it's a game called pick up.

[C]

It's a game called stay on another season or.

[B]

But you didn't say the name of the person. So I felt it was pretty benign when I watched it just sure was this one. But then at the game of. Because of all the.

[C]

I think it was the game and I think. I think it was me saying that. That this person made multiple cast members cry. And I think that is more about.

[B]

That's.

[C]

That is more about the environment of the place that. Well, that. That's like Wednesday. Like some like, like imagine like you stay up till 4am writing a sketch and then the host is like I fucking hate this. Like, like you're gonna have some.

[B]

Your.

[C]

Your nerves are frayed. You're gonna have some weird, bizarre emotional response. I'm not saying I was the one who cried.

[A]

You're exhausted, you're emotionally spent. I get it. I mean, tear up at all.

[B]

Fade in on Bowen. He's. He's dressed as a Irish potato.

[A]

Update. Could use a potato.

[B]

An Irish potato. I don't know. I don't know where.

[D]

I love that.

[A]

But some of, like, Andy Cohen, I'm saying, is that the questions are like, whatever you answer is going out there because, like, who did you hate the most and who you like the most? It's like, who you like, who's the funniest? Then it's like, Click here to hear who is the funniest.

[B]

Totally, totally.

[A]

Set it up for horrible. But you, you survived.

[B]

Gossip is in our DNA. I mean, the Homo sapiens from 200,000 years ago. Gossip. Excuse me, the gay. The gay sapiens.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

By the way, I mean, in the gay community, because you're the first person to really have so many sketches around someone being gay. I mean, the gay Oompa Loompa is especially hysterical.

[C]

Oh, thanks.

[B]

Did. I mean, are you embraced? Are you iconic? Are they because. Or are you ridiculed? How does it go over?

[C]

I think there's a healthy thing. I think, I think a gay audience is always going to be a little leery and they're always going to be like, well, I could have done it better. You know, like, there's, there's, there's a, there's. It's a, it's a, it's, it's. I think. But I think it's healthy. I think it's like a fine, like, I can't get.

[B]

I think so too.

[A]

Just like us, I think.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's.

[A]

I was told they're jealous. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The closest I got, because I was from San Francisco on the standup scene had gay friends and they said the church lady would play at the gay bars. Of course they would play the sketches. And I go. I just thought it was flattering, you know?

[C]

Oh, my God. No. Church lady is very gay iconic. And David, I will say, I think, I think no. And this is not something SNL related, honestly.

[A]

Go ahead.

[C]

I think Just Shoot Me is like very queer canon.

[A]

What is it?

[B]

Queer canon?

[C]

Just Shoot Me is a queer canon. I think, like, there's, there's something about, like, you and like, Wendy Malik and like Laura San. What's her name? Laura. Sandracomo.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, I think, like, there's something like, it's, it's like it was like the first sitcom that was like, at a magazine. And so I think, like, I think gay people of A certain generation A model magazine.

[A]

So it was all that. That world.

[C]

Um, and then. Yeah, and then that was. That. That was honestly how I first discovered David. I was like. It was. It was pre. It was before I was aware of what snl, the history of SNL was.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I was like. I was like. I was like. I was like. I just moved to the States. I started watching TV all the time.

[B]

From Australia.

[C]

From Canada. It was Australia, then Canada.

[B]

Oh, then Canada in the States.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You know what's funny about.

[A]

Is that for a model magazine, there was no gay person on the show.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

Unless it was me. I don't know. I mean, is that what you're telling me? The whole time you were like, the gay. Finch was our favorite.

[B]

I'm like, oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. But I loved Wendy on that show. She was so. I mean, I. Well, I had. I had a blast with everybody. And I thought, Wendy, every read through is so funny. As Nina.

[C]

Fantastic.

[A]

Such a blast. That was a lucky break of leaving SNL and doing something else. Because it's. I was gonna say that next move is terrifying.

[C]

I was gonna say. I feel like you landed really on a nice sort of pattern.

[A]

Yeah, I was just luck, you know, the way this business is. It's. You think you're good, bad, but if you are in the right place and you get on the right show and there's writers and a network loves it and all those people are good around me, it just. It just really, really helps. And then you just try to tread water for the rest of your fucking life. This is easier, Bone.

[C]

It is. Well. Well, this is how I feel. Like you guys are asking me, like, how I feel going into my sixth season. Like, I. Okay, I completely, completely abide by this thing that it's. It's. It is just luck. Like, if I was. And I think even Tina mentioned this, like, on her episode where she was like, this would never have flown. Like, the iceberg would have never been on the show, like, even 10 years before. Like, I got very, very lucky. I feel like. It's like. I feel like the Mars Rover landing on that square inch of Martian soil, that they have to land it at that exact spot on land. Like, that's me. Like, I couldn't have. I could not have been any kind of even. Like. Yeah, I just couldn't have made it to the show, period, had it not been for, like, a very specific set of alignments.

[B]

You know, a lot of fluky things. I mean, I auditioned Twice as a standup. And it wasn't for Lauren, but for the, you know, pass, Pass. You know.

[C]

Yep, yep.

[B]

And then going back to your share analogy, the night that I. I was in a club and Rosie o' Donnell was playing there, I'd not met her. And I said, I think I have a Lorne Michaels is going to come see me at this little club on the west side of la. And so she agreed, and we flipped a coin and we both got to see it. And what happened was, I'm nervous as hell. Lauren comes on, the head of the network, and then Cher. So I just. When you said Cher. Oh, Cher. And when I run into Cher, very rarely, she'll go, I was there the night you. You know.

[C]

That's incredible.

[B]

Oh,

[C]

I decided David's got a share.

[B]

I've never tried to do share.

[A]

I believe I'm 74.

[B]

You should do Cher.

[C]

I would love to do Cher. I've got a good Cher impression.

[B]

I bet you do. Can we give it five seconds of Cher?

[C]

Sure. If I want to put tits on my back, that's nobody's business but mine.

[B]

Pretty good. A lot of people just go half breed. They did the limp and that's it, you know, Boom.

[C]

They go too low. They go to, like, snap out of. But she did. She. She was never that low. She's got a pretty high, like, literal pitch. She pitches her voice out pretty hard.

[B]

Yeah, I love her. I met her when I was 11 or 12 at a theater near where I grew up in the Peninsula. It was sunny and shared, and we waited outside to get her autograph. So to your point about the kismet and the weirdness of getting on sale or any of this happening, I happen to be in the right place, the right time, over and over again. And then, you know, like Mike Myers said, cha. Would you like to play Garth? Well, okay. What is it? You know, and then it goes to that. So I. I agree. But, you know, there's one sketch that I. The year. The year. Look who. The, the design of your look really stood out for me as instantly funny. And that was the doctor sketch with Ryan Gosling. Oh, you had this white suit, long, straight black hair. It was such a cleverly written sketch. And then just about, first of all, nothing went wrong. You're talking to the relatives, you know.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And Ryan Gosling comes out. I mean, that whole show, I have to say, just did exude joy for whatever reason. It had the Beavis and Butt head and, you know, something about Ryan Gosling on that show, he's a star.

[C]

Just. Yeah. And someone who like, you know, you know every time like there's like anytime like an actor would come on, like a serious actor would come on, like they would just, they just ask not necessarily the right questions. They'd be like, well what's like, where's he coming from? What's his motivation? You're like, it's just say the line, read the card. But he, I think he, at that point, that was like his fourth time hosting. He was asking those same questions, but for some reason like there was an endearing quality to it and I think he really was. That's his way of. Maybe that's some people's way of just finding the comedy of it. Like it's, it's, it's just their process. It's not a comedian's process at all, but it's an, it's an act. It's like an Oscar nominated actors process for sure. Like, you know, that's, that's something.

[B]

What is your. Because we were writing pen and paper a lot of the time. I mean we, the cast back in the early days.

[C]

Sure, sure.

[B]

Sometimes I would write a sketch, I would just put a check mark for either funny or an actual laugh. And I would try to in read through. Well, and if in read through or even ahead of time and afterwards like okay, oh, there's a gap here. What, what can I put? Maybe a funny physical move or what's your methodology? You do. And I sat with a lot of writers as well. Or I write alone. But I liked, I was a standup. I love working with writers and bouncing, you know, love that process. So.

[C]

Me too.

[B]

You probably are. Are you riffing with some of these writers in the room?

[C]

That ends up being the best method. There's always someone like on keys just typing everything everyone's saying and then we just.

[A]

Oh really?

[C]

And then what I've started to do or what I learned from Sudi was you know, you would just type out everything everyone would say in a big old document and then you'd print out. There's something important about printing it out and holding it in your hand and then circling. And then you would have your selection circle the jokes that would. Yeah, yeah. It's very tactile process. It works. And then you just. And then it's just a matter of rearranging them and then doing. Filling in with connective tissue.

[A]

Cutting out the fat.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And then you get it tighter and then you cut out more fat.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And then it's this I need this line. I need this. We need this, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would do the check mark thing that J. Dan said. It read through. Like, you do a sketch and you're. And you're. It's read through and you're hitting what works. Yeah. And then you look after. If it didn't get picked, you go, well, I only had three check marks on eight pages.

[C]

That's it. I think Higgins even, like, told us one time, like, what you do is you set up the thread, you yank at it, loosen, yank again, harder, bring in another thread, cut both threads, pull one again. Like, it was just like, such a. Like, that is. I don't know. That's such a complicated way of, like, doing it. But, I mean, it's a nice,

[B]

colorful vernacular would be like, just, well, we beat the shit out of it. Yeah. We took the idea and we just went, beat the fuck out of it. You know, just like, how about this? How about this? How about that? But what is the. What's the easiest one that you've had? That was a big score that just sort of came together really fast. You know, some of them just sort of fall together, and others are just.

[C]

Are really.

[B]

George Santos.

[C]

George was fun. That was. That was mostly. That was mostly Jost. I mean, the Weekend Update one was me and Alison Gates and Ken Sublette, but Jost would do the cold opens, and that Candle in the Wind thing was Jost. But there's one called Sara Lee with Harry Styles where I saw that that was me and Julio, and that was just the two of us, just kind of a one, like a one and done, straight line path, and that was it. And basically that went to tv. And that was another thing where we were like, I can't believe this is going on air. Like, I can't believe. And that makes you go every now and then, like, oh, like, Lauren does just kind of get when to. Like, he understands when something is just ready to be out there. Even though you, as the person who wrote it might not agree with him, even though you, as the person who wrote it, like, even you have doubts about whether or not this is meant for a wider audience than the people internal at snl. Lauren is like, no, like, America's ready to see this, you know, which is crazy.

[B]

Can you imagine sometimes. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[A]

David saying, just sometimes Monday meetings, you pitch something, and he goes, this is the week. Or he'll say, it's not ready yet.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And then he goes, that feels like two weeks from now. And then he Goes, this is the week, and then this is when we need it. And it's usually right when it's supposed to be.

[B]

I know.

[C]

It's pretty amazing how. Yeah, he's right.

[B]

I think he's downloaded. I mean, Lauren is almost like a human AI when it comes to that show, because a half century of downloading everything, what will kind of work instincts around it in that room all filtered through his gigantic brain. He's incredibly bright. And then. Yeah, it's all intuitive at this point. I mean, it's just like. Because he's never sweating. Well, right before air show is when Lauren is really the most amped up. We'll lose the wig. Play that after update. Can we. The wine glasses. Could it be a little shorter? All right. You know, I mean, you couldn't. There's never been a camera on that meeting, has there? Like, has anyone ever just taken a video and put that. Picking the show at like 10:45. That's on Live to the World at 11:30.

[C]

I think they finally did put a camera in the room. So they're releasing all. They're releasing all these doc. No, because they're releasing all these documentaries.

[B]

There's five documentaries?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Are you in any of the documentaries?

[C]

I don't think so. I think they just sat me down to just talk, I think so. There's one. I don't know what they're like, but each one is about a different aspect. And, like, one's about Lauren, one's about the musical guest, one's about, like.

[B]

It's like one. One's about Cowbell the sketch.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

There's a whole documentary on it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Incredible. So I, I, I'm just excited to see how they cut it together. I have no idea.

[A]

One time, Lauren grabbed me by the cue cards and he went, I'm scared. And then I go, he goes, no one will believe you. And then he walked away. By the way, Bowen, while I'm waiting for this idiot, when I do stand up, I do, I try a joke out or I put it on a voice note just off top of my head.

[C]

Yep, yep.

[A]

Get it typed up. Heather helps me with that. And then I go through and underline what I need. It's the exact same thing. It's so funny you said that.

[C]

It's great.

[A]

And then I do it at a club, tape it, and then go, what? Because I try to memorize. I go, what did I miss? Tighten and brighten. And then you go, this is the, this is what I. This is what works. This part what you need. Go ahead.

[B]

Well, no, I just, you know, I kind of do my own sort of research, so. This is from you. I don't know, some.

[C]

Oh, shit. Oh, no.

[B]

You just said. And I. I understood what you were talking about. It's not. It's not.

[C]

Is this the cringeworthy thing?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. So I was stoned off my gourd last month on my podcast. Yes.

[B]

No, I'm kidding. No, you were stone. Really?

[C]

Well, yeah, yeah, no, but we were just.

[B]

I was.

[C]

My friend Matt and I were just talking about, like, this concept of, like, pushing past, like a feeling of cringe, cringiness. Like, pushing past this feeling of, like, embarrassment or humiliation or shame. Like, RuPaul has this thing like, your fear of looking stupid is holding you back. And he says this to so many of the drag queens on the show. He's like, your fear of looking stupid is holding you back. I'm like that. Yeah. It just applies to so many things. And I was saying that I was making this larger point about how SNL is like the biggest arena for looking stupid, for trying out an idea that you think is brilliant. And it is like. Like all week it's this idea that has been great and then it bombs on live television and you have to like. Yeah, you gotta. You gotta develop your coping mechanisms fast or else you're gonna go crazy.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

So. So that's that. That's the context.

[A]

It bombs. It makes you cr. And in the middle of it, you're thinking, how is this not working? What are we doing wrong?

[C]

Yeah, this.

[A]

Everyone loved.

[C]

Everyone loved this. But like, you. You never know. And it's had to be.

[B]

Yeah, it's weird when it kills. It read through and vice versa. And it's the opposite live on air. And, you know, we. I think Phil and I and Victoria used to say we're just clowns. And really think of ourselves as clowns, you know, because they can get highfalutin. These sophisticated comedians who are commenting on society, you know, so, you know, put a dress on me, put a wig, put me in a big diaper. I was in a big diaper once with Matthew Broderick and the Sketch Bomb. We were bare chested and giant diapers with bonnets on. And it played the dead silence. And then the commercial break. This is my first season. We walk by the bleachers. We kind of trying to wave to the audience as they look away.

[A]

You know, they're like, you.

[B]

Yeah, you want.

[A]

They're like, we hate.

[B]

It's like if you're not, you know, I mean, do you have sketches in your head that are. You feel like are too far, not ready or that are sort of fantasy? If I could get that to work, you know. Do you play guitar, kid?

[C]

Yeah, but no, funnily enough, I like, I've always wanted to write like a yacht rock sketch or something like musical.

[A]

There we go.

[C]

Musical thing. But like I don't know, like it's just not that seems, that's not even like I can see it. It's just. I feel like there's just. I've got a million steps to that. But what you're saying is so, is so real. It's this thing of like this is what this is what I mean by SNL being the cringe, the most cringe worthy place in show business. It's like it is. You need to learn how to push past that embarrassment or else you'll die. Yeah.

[A]

Or you'll pull your next good idea and go, I don't know about this one.

[C]

Exactly. And this is the beauty of comedy is that it's no one agrees on what funny. There's no universal definition of what funny is. And that's the amazing thing about it. There's no one agrees. And for something to be funny, all it has to be is funny to two people. That is the smallest unit of measurement for comedy. And that's all that matters. Like the political shit that gets attached to it doesn't really matter. Like it's, it's just about that. And I agree with this whole clown thing. Like we're just clowns. I never want to comment on society. I just want to.

[B]

Number one, you want. You want it what they say kill. You want people to be helpless. And you also want, and I'm sure you've had this people see you at an airport or whatever. Man, me and my friends just went crazy for, you know, the iceberg skips or whatever you would get. And, and that's also, that's really fun. I mean that is very satisfying when people, you know, they've seen it multiple times and they're quoting lines. You know, that's the best one thing I was going to ask you because I'm curious for myself. Like why do I love when people. Because I'm pre rap in hip hop, I've been exposed to it massively. When there is a sketch where people are rapping together, it always entertains the hell out of me. Timothee Chalamet and I guess Marcello was it the baby face one. And then Kenan Came in and syncopated movement and it's just always is entertaining to me. I don't see it as anything other than just. I'm immediately entertained, especially when it. You don't expect it all of a sudden. Well, I. I'm just saying I'm kind of curious how there'd be people, you know, real purists a long time ago. Oh, it's. It's hacked, you know, rhyming, you know, But I'm entertained every time. So that's all.

[C]

I think it's just. I think it's just like a structure. I don't want to get too.

[B]

Do you think about it?

[A]

Do you think, what if.

[B]

What if. What if Biden did a rap?

[C]

I think people would go crazy.

[A]

All right, let's wrap up. Bowen, you're a stud. We got to know you. We got to know a little bit about the iceberg. We got to know all. Everybody. I love you. We appreciate it.

[B]

Yes. Thank you. 2200 on his SAT. He's highly educated. I know I'm just throwing this out at the very end, but I was like, damn.

[A]

He taught himself Adobe Photoshop. I read that earlier.

[B]

Mess a bunch. He went, these. These are just talk about him.

[A]

Thanks, Bowen. I know you gotta run. I appreciate it. And we'll see you at the show at some point. All right, listen, if you're enjoying the Fly on the Wall, of course, hopefully you are. Click, follow. We don't want to be desperate, but obviously smash that God dang button on your favorite podcast app, leave a review, a good one, leave a five star rating, nothing else, and maybe even share an episode with a friend. If you're watching this episode on YouTube, please subscribe. Dana, what do you think?

[B]

I'm gonna tell you this right now. Hear me now, Believe me later. Fly on the Wall, Believe it or not, is presented by Odyssey and executive produced by. Hold for it. Dana Carvey and David Spade or David Spade and Dana Carvey. We don't write this stuff. Heather Santoro, Greg Holtzman and Leah Reese Dennis. The show is edited by Evan Cox with production support from Phil Sweettech Talent production and booking by Sophia Lepore.