← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:06]
Jim Daly
I think the perfect date is having.
- [00:08]
John Fuller
Just a really good conversation over coffee.
- [00:11]
Lisa Anderson
Probably a fall festival. You have a lot of activities. There's a lot of things you can do, but you're still talking. And it's not like going to a movie.
- [00:18]
John Fuller
Anything that is outdoors and reveals character.
- [00:20]
Jim Daly
And allows for good conversation and laughter.
- [00:22]
JP Pacluda
Going to a concert and singing along.
- [00:24]
John Fuller
With the music together just sounds perfect.
- [00:27]
JP Pacluda
Driving in a car, listening to good music and then watching the stars.
- [00:31]
Focus on the Family
Whether you're married or not, you probably have some ideas about what a perfect date would be, and maybe you've had some of those ideas for some time or you're looking forward to having a perfect date in the near future. This is FOCUS ON THE FAMILY with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller. And today we'll explore the world of dating and some of the unique challenges associated with that. And we have a message of hope, ultimately for you.
- [00:55]
Gene
That's good to have hope, John. I have such great memories of Gene and I when we began dating, and I'm sure most of the married couples listening right now can say the same thing. The excitement about getting to know someone you're attracted to and those early feelings of love. I think one of the biggest demonstrations for me is taking dinner to Jean. I had to drive 90 miles from San Diego up into Orange County, Louisiana, oh, my goodness, just to get her dinner. And I thought that was pretty good. But that's one of my favorite memories of what I would do to spend a little time with her. Now as parents, we find ourselves watching it happen all over again with our adult children, Trent and Troy, in our case. And I know, John, you and Dina have done the same thing, just watching your kids go through that phase, kind.
- [01:42]
Focus on the Family
Of navigating how all that works.
- [01:44]
Gene
Of course, we know not every single adult is going to get married, but a significant number will. And that's our primary audience for today's program. Now here's some interesting stats about marriage in the United States. A generation ago, back in the 1970s, for the age group 25 years old to 50 years old, only 9% of that group were unmarried. Today that number has grown to 47% of adults between 25 and 50 who are unmarried. That is a big decrease in family formation. It is a huge difference and a.
- [02:21]
Trent
Troubling trend when you think about the.
- [02:24]
Gene
Future of humanity and where we need to go to at least reproduce ourselves. Right. You know, the scripture talks about children being a blessing, and so much now so much of the culture is not seeing it that way. Our goal is to examine what it takes to cultivate a healthy dating relationship and encourage our young adults who are contemplating marriage for the future and to encourage them.
- [02:48]
Focus on the Family
Yeah. And Jim, for some parents, this topic of dating and marriage can be a little tricky to address with our adult kids. We want to support them and guide them toward a godly spouse, but we can overstep our bounds and we can interfere. Get out of the way. Yeah, the kids shut down because our intervention isn't exactly helping.
- [03:06]
Gene
Well, that's why I want to encourage parents to bathe this issue in prayer, ask the Lord for wisdom and guidance, and to know and realize these are your adult children now. Influence is all you got. You don't have control that left a while ago. So pray yourself up and pray for your kids and then hold on for the ride. Today we do have some help for you. That's great. And especially for single adults from a pair of guests who have some wonderful insights and perspectives to share with you.
- [03:35]
Focus on the Family
Yes, we recorded a conversation with our colleague Lisa Anderson. She heads up Focus on the Family's Boundless outreach. Boundless is a podcast, a broadcast, a website, and so much more, all dedicated to helping single adults grow in their faith and their relationships. We also invited Pastor JP Pacluda into the studio, who's been involved in young adult ministry for years now. He's the pastor of Harris Creek Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. And JP has written a book that we'll hear more about today. It's called Outdated Find Love that Lasts When Dating Has Changed. You can find out more about our guests and this book when you stop by our website and we've got the links in the show notes as well. Jim, here's how the conversation began on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.
- [04:24]
John Fuller
Yeah, let me just say this. If you're listening and you're single and you desire marriage, if you are in a relationship or if you are the parents of someone that you desire marriage for or they're dating, maybe you like their significant other, maybe you don't. I hope you'll listen in and find something helpful here because it has changed our my children, there's a really good chance they're going to meet their spouse through an app. Technology now plays a role in this. Whether we like it or not, it's here to stay. It's not going anywhere. And we become more segmented. And so people are looking to the church, wanting the church to help them find a spouse. And everybody's kind of throwing their hands out. You know, people are getting married later, they're getting married less and marriages aren't lasting. And so that's really why this book outdated was born so that we could give people a roadmap. Some help create a biblical worldview on this topic that shows up nowhere in the Bible, so nowhere in the scripture, Genesis to Revelation will you find the word dating because it didn't exist. Dating is only about 120 years old and most people don't realize that, that as we do this thing that is completely commonplace now that it is, it's a new idea. And I'm not trying to kiss it goodbye, if you will, but I am trying to say, hey, let's work in some biblical ideas to help us here.
- [05:44]
Trent
Well, I know that's serious what you just said, but boy, in my experience, meeting Gene, I'm glad I was born in the time I was that 120 year. I mean, that's amazing. It is, because it was really fulfilling for us and I think we did a good job. I mean, Gene and I, you know, we contained all those appetites and all those things and really I felt like honored the Lord through it. And, you know, it was a good thing. Lisa, let me give you a swing at what I asked JP in terms of what you hear back from boundless readers and listeners about, you know, their thoughts on marriage, the dating culture, what do you hear?
- [06:16]
JP Pacluda
Yeah, I really think there is a lot of frustration, Jim, because it's, you know, if you talk to our parents, our grandparents, it was this idea of like there was just a natural progression of dating. Like, you think of the average church, you went to youth group, then you went to the college group, and then the next thing was like the young married group. So you just got married and your peers did too. And it was just kind of the thing you did. But now it's kind of like some people go to college, some people don't. Then you can be in a small group and it might be for people who are believers and ride Harleys or, you know, whatever. There are just so many things that are like segmented and it's no longer assumptive as this is what I do because I'm now 23, clearly I'm just going to be dating looking for someone getting married. And for those that want to get married, they do get frustrated because finding someone who wants the same thing and is pursuing it in the same way is like a holy grail.
- [07:09]
Trent
You know, one of the things as a parent now of kids in that dating age range, and this is probably Aimed more toward the younger adult. As I say this, you know, we have our experience as parents. Right. That's what we did. And I can just hear that conversation with the 21 year old who's not found that dating relationship yet or not found that someone. Boy by 20, you know, by 21 I already met your dad. And you know, this is already happening. What's your problem? And I think we as parents have to be careful not to project our experience of, you know, 20, 30 years ago onto our kids because it is different and it, you know, in many ways it's unfair.
- [07:46]
John Fuller
Yeah. Even as you pray for your children and so at an early age you're praying, I pray for their spouse. Well, what if they don't get married? And I think we forget that the scripture calls singleness a gift. Paul says that in 1 Corinthians, chapter 7. And he's actually plagiarizing the words of Jesus in Matthew 19 where he says there are some who are celibate for the sake of the kingdom. Not everyone can accept this, but those who can should. By the way, Paul single, Jesus, also single. And we have this idea that comes from, you know, I think Jerry Maguire back in the day, this, you complete me. Which really sends a signal to singles that you're not whole, that you're just a half a person. And you know, Jesus certainly the most complete human being that has ever lived as God. You know, he wasn't incomplete, he wasn't a half a person. And so we're not trying to find our soulmate or star crossed lover or all of these ideas that actually come into our culture from Greek mythology. And we don't realize that. And so absolutely, I know Lisa and I have talked a lot about that before.
- [08:47]
Trent
Let me move to some of the data that's a little concerning or I should say very concerning. Some statistics and surveys are showing that within the Christian community. So I'm not talking about the world, but the Christian community. Research shows that 47% of young evangelicals are saying they would live together before marriage. Kind of try it out. 47%. And I guess the right question is why are Christians compromising in this way and falling for it? I think the other data point is about half of those that live together end up not getting married.
- [09:21]
John Fuller
That's right.
- [09:22]
Trent
And that's double trouble, I think.
- [09:24]
John Fuller
Well, there's lots of statistics out there. One that I looked at was even much more than half. And the success rate of cohabitation, one that I'll share, is about 2%. And so that's crazy. And you can find statistics that venture off that a little bit. But think about if 100 people live together, a significant portion of them are not going to get married, and then another significant portion of those that get married end in divorce. And so this whole try before you buy is not working. And it's like, there's a God, and he has these, you know, ideals and these desires for us, and they actually work, work out for our good. And so I think as we begin to apply those, we'll find life not as a promise. Certainly hardships can happen in this fallen world, but as we pursue the things that he desires for us. He's the one that invented marriage. You know, he invented relationships. He made them male and female. He knows how this works better than anyone else. And so as we look to him, I think then we find the path. But, yeah, the cohabitation, it's a real issue. And I think it's just the way that we think. There's a spirit of selfishness in the air, and I don't want to commit. Why commit? If I can just have a roommate and I can have the friends with benefits, and I can get the, you know, quote unquote benefits of marriage without the commitment, but it doesn't go well.
- [10:43]
JP Pacluda
Well. And I think that's where, you know, for women, Jim, it's very easy for women to choose to settle on this front, because for them, the assumption is, if I choose to live with this guy, it's gonna drive him towards commitment. And what happens is exactly the opposite. They think that if they just bide their time, wait it out, build more connection with this guy that he's gon. But then what we find is, you know, all of a sudden they're sharing a rent, or maybe in some cases sharing a mortgage, then they're sharing a dog, and then eventually they might share a kid or two. And at that point, they might be in a really bad, toxic relationship. But it's so hard to extricate themselves from that that they just stay in it and just wait it out and end up in a really bad situation, sometimes for years, because they just realize, well, I paid my dues. I put my time in. I guess I'm just going to leave it the status quo.
- [11:35]
John Fuller
Yeah, cohabitation will keep you in the wrong relationship too long, and it will keep you from the right relationship. I see that more and more.
- [11:41]
Trent
Yeah, that's good. Lisa, let me also ask you. You have a comment from a boundless listener that illustrates the pain and confusion that many Christian families are dealing with because of this cohabitation. Share that comment and then explain how you address this topic with your boundless listeners.
- [11:57]
JP Pacluda
Yeah, I mean, I'll kind of summarize it here. We had a listener write in who was talking about her bro who was dating someone, and their mom was allowing brother and his girlfriend to sleep together when they visited. And she's like, I think my mom is a Christian and I'm not comfortable with this, but I don't want to drive my brother away, but do I confront my mom? And so you could see where it gets muddy. And this is where also when we're wondering, like, what are, you know, how do we apply Christian principles to everyday life? And does she honor her mom in this? It's her mom's house. And so it really became a very sticky situation to kind of work through.
- [12:34]
Trent
JP the challenges that many single adults face with dating today are part of your journey. I mean, this is your testimony. And I'm sure it's, you know, that old adage that your passion is born out of your pain. You speak from that experience when you say, don't make the same mistakes that I made. Explain how you viewed dating before you were Christian. What age did you become a Christian?
- [12:56]
John Fuller
It was an adventure. It was the manic. So dating for me. And I'll go back to something you said earlier where you talk about you and your wife dating and it really being a benefit to you. But we almost have to define that word now because it means so many different things to different people. For a lot of people, when they hear dating, they think, oh, it's this emotional experience. And that's what it was for Monica and I, or even before I met Monica, the manic highs and the manic lows going on, the adventure. Kind of like the Bachelor, the Bachelorette, if you will. Let's go experience all the things together. And I called myself a Christian. I was raised in the church, but really I wasn't making any decision that was rooted in Christ or God's word. And then I was at a club 20 years ago and someone invited me to church. I sat in the back row, hungover. I smelt like smoke from the night before and ended up giving my life to Jesus. And I really had to realize that I wasn't a Christian to become one. And when that happened, everything changed. I sat Monica, my girlfriend at the time, we sat down and I just said, what do you believe about God? And we had fought about faith up until now, but she said, I Believe that Jesus died for my sins and raised from the dead. I said, I believe that too. Let's build on that. And oh, by the way, I think we need to stop the physical stuff. It seems like that's not God's desire. And so we pulled the parking brake on that. That was really challenging, as you can imagine. So then I was like, we should probably get married. I will say I've never met. I've done a lot of marriage counseling, a lot of pre marriage counseling. I've never met someone with marriage problems. They've always been single people problems that they've brought into marriage. And the marriage just throws a giant magnifying glass on it. And that was my story. So there was, you know, pornography. I was a sex addict. So I needed to go through a season of healing before I brought someone into my problems and challenges. And so now as I look back, I think, you know, there is a way to date, like you said, like you experienced, Jim, that's really God honoring. That is a method that I think a lot of times he blesses with a healthy marriage. Not an easy marriage, but a healthy marriage. And so that is. You're right. I mean, my passion is born out of that pain. Yeah.
- [15:05]
Focus on the Family
And let me.
- [15:05]
Trent
You know, I had difficulties in high school and early college, but, you know, the Lord really spoke to my heart about the right way to go. And I remember after Jean and I's first date, I shook her hand because I just said to myself, I'm not going any further. The irony of ironies is that is one of the things that caught Gene's attention.
- [15:23]
Focus on the Family
It makes a great handshake and it was very sincere.
- [15:27]
Trent
I didn't do it for any other motivation. I just knew if I do anything else, it's going to take us down the wrong path. And you know, the thing about that, men, Even if you're 19, 20, 21, you got to be a man at that point and demonstrate what this is going to grow into and don't fall into the trap. It's hard.
- [15:45]
Gene
Yeah, it's difficult.
- [15:46]
Trent
We've been there. But you got to find the way to make your commitment to Christ first and then the relationship second.
- [15:53]
John Fuller
That's right.
- [15:54]
Trent
And that's just the way it is. Lysa, there can be a lot of confusion about dating because men and women have different goals, maybe expectations. I think today we're being told that maybe they're not so different. Women are want physical intimacy as much as men. I mean, that's what's being said, right? Explain why it's important for single adults to be more intentional in their dating.
- [16:17]
JP Pacluda
Yeah, I think it's very easy to get caught up in just the clutter of what you assume relationships are or what you want them to be. So you have many options of, you know, we see people, quote unquote, hanging out, we see people hooking up, we see people dating intentionally, or what I would call biblical dating, of really moving along a progression, a trajectory of what would be a great way to get to know someone. But no one has really. You know, I jokingly say to boundless listeners, it'd be awesome if we could open up the Bible and look for first and second dating and just get all of our instructions out there. But the fact is that doesn't exist. And so as a result, we have to script some principles of what it means to honor someone as a brother or sister in Christ. And until you are married to this person, that is all they are. And so they're obviously like, as you start dating or expressing interest in someone, you're going to do that, hopefully be, you know, very explicit about that, like, I'm interested in you. But the fact is, now, with all the muddiness in our culture, we're actually having to give that kind of instruction to young adults of like, this is what it looks like to actually ask someone out. This is what it looks like to not just get caught up in what I call a friend relationship, of using this person for connection, for affection, for attention. And so we really have to be a lot more. And, you know, young adults are here for it. I mean, they're kind of like, please help me navigate this space. Help me figure this out, because I don't know what I'm doing. And my, you know, my parents are either like, telling me not to get in a relationship or they're pushing me towards a relationship. And so they just want some clarity.
- [17:56]
Trent
Let me. Let me ask you this. The kind of the group gathering, and I think Trent and Troy, at least my observation, I'm sure I don't know everything, but the observation that I have is that they did lean into kind of the guys and the girls kind of going out together in like a pack of about eight to 10. And that felt comfortable as parents to Gene and I. Again, I don't know that all the behavior was perfect. But what about that concept for particularly teenagers in a Christian home? The parents saying, that's an area that seems right for 16, 17, where you go out with a bunch of friends.
- [18:34]
John Fuller
You'Re learning to be comfortable around the aisle, opposite sex. I mean, that's what they're learning, right? And I would say this here, that I think dating the way the world does it is really the enemy of marriage. And so if we reframe it as hanging out with other followers of Jesus, other Christians, and you start to observe people and you think, you know what, there's something special about that, you begin to kind of feel your heart moving toward them. And you know about them because you've hung out for a season. Hey, they really are following Jesus. So now let's redefine dating as in a way that I think is God honoring. It's a path to a promise. It's a path to a promise. So when I enter into a committed relationship with them, meaning we're not dating other people, really, all I'm trying to do is identify, are they who I think they are? Would they make a good husband? Would they make a good wife, Would they make a good father, Would they be a good mother? Do they have these character qualities there? And I'm just trying to identify that honestly as quickly and effectively as I can, assuming that I'm at an age where I'm ready for marriage. Prior to that, like Lisa said, it's brothers and sister relationships. We're hanging out, we're having fun, you know, guarding your heart, which I know sounds archaic because it is a couple thousand years old, still very effective today.
- [19:50]
Trent
It's a very good formula.
- [19:51]
JP Pacluda
Well, where did we get this idea that we should just all be dating? Any age, any stage? I mean, all it's gonna do is set you up for a lot of heartache and, or, you know, a downward spiral or getting caught into a vortex of sexual activity or whatever. I mean, I'm like, you know, I have friends of mine with 13 year olds that they're like, oh, go get a boyfriend. Meet a boyfriend at school. And I'm like, what are we talking about? I mean, I really believe that dating is for the purpose of finding a marriage partner. And you do that intentionally, you do it well, you do it in community, and you're gonna have a lot better chance of finding that person successfully.
- [20:30]
Trent
Let me ask you, J.P. you have an acrostic that I actually sent to my son today because I thought it's so good, this idea of cross and what each element O S s means in the dating relationship.
- [20:42]
John Fuller
Yeah, yeah. I think, just as you consider who you're looking for and that list, and I'm not against lists, just make sure that your list aligns with God's list for you. Like you're looking for what he would have you look at. You want to find someone who is controlled. Self control is a fruit of the spirit. You want to find someone who is responsible. As they're moving to the adult season of life, it's hard and there are bills and there are challenges that with just being an adult. So you want to find someone who is responsible, someone who's. Who is obedient. They are submissive to authority. They are under the control of the Holy Spirit. They know God's word. They live according to what it says. They're serving. If someone does not enjoy serving, they're going to hate marriage. And then I would just say someone who is steady. It's not the manic highs and the manic lows that the world would tell you. Dating is that Monica and I experienced. It really is. There's a steadiness in a lot of ways, and this is not a popular opinion, but in a lot of ways, you want a boring marriage. And what I mean by a boring marriage is it wouldn't make a good reality show. It's not. The stuff's getting thrown against the wall and we're yelling expletives at each other and, you know, and then we're crying and then we're making up. It's steady. So controlled, responsible, obedient, serving, steady. That's the acrostic of cross.
- [22:09]
Focus on the Family
It's really good.
- [22:09]
Trent
I think that's great. J.P. we're right at the end here. I want to close with your perspective about the fair tale ending that many singles dream about that if they only get there, it's all going to be bliss. And really, you're just strapping in for the next level of what God's going to teach you.
- [22:26]
John Fuller
Your greatest disappointments come from expectations. And I would say the most concentrated form of expectations or the highest platform from which we fall is entitlement. And so I think when you go into the world, you feel entitled to marriage and you feel entitled to a fun marriage. That's easy. I'm telling you, it doesn't exist. It's not out there. You can have a lot of fun, but it requires a lot of work and a lot of sacrifice. And so what we hear Disney telling us is this idea of happily ever after. And the problem with that is it's actually, we don't know. We don't know what's in store. We don't know if it's infertility. We don't know what it's going to Be like to bury a parent. The challenges and the weightiness of life, really what we did in marriage is we found a partner to help us carry some of that. And at times, times that partner is going to be a part of what we carry. And so what the scripture tells us is no one is married in heaven except for everyone is married in heaven. We're married to Jesus. We are the bride of Christ, his church. And so marriage is this metaphor. It's not just a metaphor, but it is first a metaphor. So in Ephesians 5, Paul is saying, husbands, wives, Jesus church. Husbands, wives, Jesus church. Husbands, wives, Jesus church. To show us something that marriage showcases is the Savior. When we lay our lives down for one another, when husbands lay their lives down for wives, as wives submit to that kind of leadership. And I know that seems like an, an old fashioned idea, but it starts out, that passage starts out, husband and wife submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. When we live like that, the world is saying, man, there is something different about them. I want to get to know their God. And that's the true happily ever after, that we can live in eternity with God because of what he's done for us through His Son, Jesus Christ.
- [24:16]
Gene
I'm like bursting out of my seat right here.
- [24:18]
Trent
You couldn't say it any better, jp. I mean, that is right on. And that's what we fight for each and every day. Lysa, you get a shot at really hitting unboundless here. What are you trying to accomplish?
- [24:30]
JP Pacluda
Yeah, I mean, I just wanted to say one thing to that, Jim, and that is, yeah, as a single person, if marriage is the ultimate prize, then Paul and Jesus and I have the lamest lives ever. I mean, we're not done. We're not. I mean, what is there? And so that's where I say, you know, we will all stand before the Lord as single individuals, you know, ready to enter heaven. And what's that going to look like? And so for me, I'm encouraged that, you know, single people that get married, they're going to trade one set of joys and sorrows for another set of joys and sorrows. So it's not like there's first and second class citizens or that whole deal. So I'm just excited that at Boundless we have the opportunity to be a community for folks who are hopeful for marriage, some who maybe want to remain single, but ultimately are walking out their faith in a way, hopefully in community and in a way where they are pursuing Christ and wanting to honor Him. Now and whether or not they get married. And we just have the opportunity to root for them and provide them advice and resources along the way.
- [25:35]
Trent
That's great. And John will give details how to connect to Boundless in a moment. But Lisa, jp, thank you so much for being with us.
- [25:41]
John Fuller
Thank you so much for having me on.
- [25:42]
Trent
It's really, really good and I hope get a copy of JP's book Outdated Find Love that Lasts When Dating has Changed. I'm going to snag a couple of copies for my boys and make sure that they have it and I want to recommend that you get a copy and if you can make a gift to focus on the family, be a part of the ministry. We'll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for being a partner and man. I think this is one of the most important things, important jobs we have as parents is to help our kids navigate our young adult kids navigate this area.
- [26:16]
John Fuller
That's right.
- [26:17]
Focus on the Family
I'm so glad we had this conversation. And as Jim said, you can get a copy of this book when you get in touch with us. Our number is 800, the letter A in the word family. 800-232-6459 or check the show notes for details and the links. We're going to have information there at the site about the Boundless show and spread the word. Tell single adults you know about this terrific outreach. Coming up next time, encouragement for women facing an unplanned pregnancy.
- [26:48]
Jim Daly
The step forward is not what am I going to do about this baby? The step forward is okay, Lord, help me. Help me through this pregnancy.
- [26:59]
John Fuller
I love that.
- [27:00]
Focus on the Family
Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [27:14]
Jim Daly
Your marriage can be redeemed even if the fights seem constant, even if there's been an affair, even if you haven't felt close in years, no matter how deep the wounds are, you can take a step toward healing them with a hope Restored Marriage Intensive. Our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face challenges together. Together, we'll talk with you, pray with you and help you find out which program will work best. Call us at 1-866-875-2915.