← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:01]
A
God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit truthrising.com today. That's truthrising.com.
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B
The choice is will the adults struggle through it, get accountability, therapy, grow up, do hard things or will you force the kids to struggle? It's a trade off. Someone's going to do the hard thing. It has to be the adults.
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C
Well, that's Katie Foust and she joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to talk about how you can speak up for the rights of children. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller.
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A
You know, John, I say this a lot, but focus on the family. We are here to help your family thrive in Christ. We've been at it 48 years now. We are a treasure trove of resources and we try to creatively talk about the things that are going on in the home, in your marriage, in your parenting, but also the broader culture and what's impacting the family. And the culture today makes the Christian message a little more difficult because not everybody agrees with a Judeo Christian foundation. It's the way our country started. It's inculcated into so much of our laws and other things. But slowly things have eroded and new ideas have come up. Not all good ideas. And today we're going to talk about the impact on parenting, adults and children with a great guest.
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C
Yeah. Katie Faust is founder and president of Them Before Us, which she shares about in our new documentary Truth Rising which we created in partnership with the Colson Center. It premieres today and features Os Guinness and John Stonestreet as they talk with and explore this cultural moment that we're facing. Altogether, this film offers a Christ centered path forward and it'll inspire you to rise up, to speak truth with courage and conviction and to make a difference right where you are. Watch Truth Rising and Download the free 4 part study guide by clicking the link in the show notes.
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A
Katie, it's great to welcome you to focus on the family.
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B
It's always good to be here because you do. You have a lot of great resources for people that are in a variety of different places in the marriage, family, parenthood journey. And you nail it. You get it right.
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A
I appreciate that. You know, Dr. Dobson, when he started Focus, he would say let's answer a question or Concern. Put that in the database and then we don't have to research it again and be ready to answer that next question, which is great. And then to develop resources around it, whether it's film or books and all the other things that Focus has. So I appreciate that. That's very kind of you. Let's get into your story, though. In 20, you saw progressive cultural ideas beginning to creep into family. You were concerned, pastor's wife, kind of just cruising through life and the culture. But, man, you are one of the most passionate people I've ever met when it comes to, hey, this is not right. Tell me how you got involved.
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B
Yeah, I got really angry and I was like, I know. I'm going to show you guys. I'm going to start. And an anonymous blog.
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A
How brave of you. I get it, I get it.
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B
But I wasn't. I knew what these people would do to you, so I was gonna keep my identity hidden. But I had a lot to say and I knew that God wanted me to just start writing. And there was actually a lot of grace in those first couple years because I would pour my heart out into, you know, an 800 word post, and then somebody would come along and say, but what about this? But have you thought about this? And I was like, oh, I haven't. I haven't tried it.
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A
It's like it was your training time.
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B
It was literally two years of training in obscurity. But then this very powerful gay blogger searched a picture that I had posted and somehow found the IP address connected to it, which was my husband's church. And so then he said, I'm gonna destroy you and I'm going to destroy your entire church. And so he published the names and addresses of our home community leaders known as doxing. He doxed, but he didn't necessarily just dox me. He doxed the people that I love.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Which, you know, as you go through this space of kind of being public facing, you learn to deal with people hating you. But, man, when they come for your children or your husband or your friends or your church, it really does make you go, okay, never mind. I'll stop, I'll stop. Don't hurt these people. Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And so I went to the church. I went to the elders. And I'm like. Because it was awful. Like he said, this blogger said, I will make sure that if anybody ever Googles the name of your church for the rest of time, they will see what I wrote about it first. Which was awful. Right? Just lies and slander and terrible.
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A
That's why you can't believe everything on the Internet.
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B
Right. And so I went to the elders and I said, I'm so sorry. And some of them didn't know I had this, like, midnight hobby. You know, a couple of them did, and they were in support, but they didn't. You know, some of them were like, why are we getting all of this hate? Why do we suddenly have all of these anonymous Yelp reviews that are tanking us online? And I was like, that's me, and I'm so sorry. And I said, if I am the Jonah that you need to throw overboard so the storm will stop, I'll stop. Like, that's fine. I totally. I don't want to hurt the church at all. I mean, like, this is our ministry. Like, we are. We were called to this, and they talked about it, and then one of them said, well, you could stop or you could go big.
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A
And I was like, okay, well, there's a prophecy.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because here we are.
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B
Right? Well. And it was so wonderful to have these good men say, you know, all of the cultural bullying, it's not going to direct our steps, and it shouldn't direct your steps.
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A
Right.
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B
And so once my name was out there, it was not just anonymous blog anymore. Now it was submitting amicus briefs to the Supreme Court and leading workshops at the United nations and going to Taiwan and Australia and South Korea and the Czech Republic to advocate for children in those countries where they were being victimized. And it was publishing books and it was starting a nonprofit. I mean, I wouldn't have done any of those things anonymously. You can't.
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A
Well, and that's what's so good for people to hear. One day you're just a mom, the next day the Lord has you on a path. And that isn't just you. That could be literally thousands of people.
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B
It probably should be thousands of people.
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A
Engage.
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B
I think all of us, really. You know, you started saying, well, back in 2012, I was just normie mom. But I'll tell you what. Like, the culture has gone so crazy that it has awakened a lot of us normies to the point where we say, even if it costs me socially, maybe it'll cost me my job. I'll definitely be uncomfortable. I might lose friends online, but I cannot stand for this anymore. And that's the right attitude.
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A
And I so appreciate. One of the things you've advocated for so often is that adult feelings cannot come before the needs of children. And the way you've said it that I've. I mean, it just punched me right in the mouth. Is that it used to be adults sacrifice for children, now we expect children to sacrifice for adults. That statement floored me, especially when you apply that to the progressives in the culture, lgbtq, that it's their rights that trump the rights of a child. And you're saying, no, no, no, that is unhealthy.
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B
Yeah, that is it. And I actually think you can see that in every sphere of the country. And I actually think that that's the proper way to frame anything that we would consider a culture war issue. You can look at any of the things that we're dealing with, whether it is the transgender madness or, you know, like the locker room debates or abortion or reproductive technologies or the definition of marriage or the prominence of or the promotion of modern families. You can look at Drag Queen story Hour. I mean, all of those things that have red pilled all of us at some point, I think can and should be framed as matters of justice for children. All of those situations are saying, we're going to exalt adult desires, identity, affirmation above the rights, needs and well being of children. And in a just society, it should be the exact opposite.
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A
You know, Francis Schaeffer, some people may know and remember him, he was a Christian philosopher. Labri was his ministry in Switzerland. And many people went. In fact, in the film, the documentary Truth Rising, Os Guinness was a young student there. And that's where he learned those convictions.
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B
That can I say, I can't wait to see this film.
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A
Well, it is today.
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B
I know, I'm like, finally like, I'm in it. I've seen the preview. I completely fangirl over so many of the people that you guys got on camera.
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That's good.
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B
Yeah, I cannot wait.
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A
And in that way, you know, with Francis Schaeffer, back with Roe v. Wade in 1973, he declared, we're going to dehumanize the child. This will lead to euthanasia and more, and there will be a death culture for children. So all of that for us as Christians, we're saying we're in an odd place now where right is no longer right, wrong is no longer wrong. In that context, you're making the claim that biological parents bring a certain confidence to that child. But. But again, in that context, children that through IVF or through adoption even, it's great to adopt, but there is a brokenness there that we need to recognize.
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B
Yeah. And you know, there are fundamental rights that children have, obviously right to life, but the right to their mother and father if we understand that children have a right to their mother and father, we actually get the correct answer to all of these other questions that we're facing in culture as it relates to marriage and family. For example, the true definition of marriage. And when a divorce is appropriate. And should we promote same sex headed households? And is a throuple something? Is it just more love for children? Should we be producing children in a laboratory using somebody else's gametes? Can we rent out somebody else's womb to create a child that we want? And do adults have a right to adopt same sex couples or infertile couples? All of those questions actually can be answered when you understand who are children? From where do they come, to whom do they have a natural right and what do they need to flourish? And the answer is their mother, their father, their mother, their father and their mother and father. And as an adoptive mother, I can tell you that adoption is a redemptive institution. It's a matter of justice for children. But that is a situation that begins with loss.
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A
Yeah. You know, Katie, I want to ask you this. The social science is affirmation of what you're saying children do best in a biological loving, two parent family. Mom and dad.
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B
That's right.
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A
Your whole ministry.
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Right.
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A
Your own story speaks to this. And I do want people to understand maybe some of that passion and where you get it. Just describe your growing up years when you were 10, what took place and why you fight for this.
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B
Well, like I said, I was not raised in a Christian environment at all. Like I didn't know the Old Testament from the New Testament when I was a 10 year old. My parents were married until I was 10 and then they divorced and then my father dated and remarried and my mom re partnered with a woman and they've been together ever since. Like my son is hanging out with them right now. Like I'm very close to both of them. They've both been a huge part, an important part of my life ever since then. So this is not a question of like animus. This is actually understanding the value and the dignity of everybody, regardless of how they identify. But also I needed my father before the divorce and after the divorce. Like all children need their mother and father all day, every day, all their life. Yeah, I ended up getting 50% of each of them and that was not enough. But at least there was no confusion between my mom and her partner or my father and the new wife that he was with that there was any kind of confusion that the two moms could replace my dad or that my dad could replace my mother or his new wife could replace my mother. And so that's really the message here, is my I, like every child, need deserve, have a right to my own mother and father. And Christians can and should advocate for the good design of sex and marriage that God has made explicit in Scripture. And you should love your gay family and friends better than anyone else. Those two things are not in conflict in terms of the believer, in terms of how you need to act out. Now, the world may say you can't do both, but Christ says you absolutely must.
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A
Yeah. You know, I'm thinking back when I wrote the book Refocus, A local liberal, actually Richard Scorman, invited me down to his bookstore by Colorado College to do a autograph signing and a little talk about the book Refocus. I was kind of floored by that, but I went down. There's 40, 50 people there. I remember a gay activist during the Q and A time put his hand up and he said, you know, Mr. Daly, you know, I'm just kind of floored that the Christian community can't get to the 21st century sexually. Why don't you guys shred that archaic sexual understanding and catch up with the rest of us? And I was kind of smiling, and I think it irritated him. And I said, you know what? It's so good of you to think that I could edit the book or change the wording of the book. I can't. I'm a follower of the book. I need to understand it as best as I can, which is true for all Christians, but we don't get the pleasure of editing well.
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B
And those objections of, like, why can't you modernize? Yeah, we've got modern family. We've got modern technology. Like, we've got modern laws. We've got modern marriage. And I'm like, you know what's interesting? Children refuse to modernize. Yeah, they're not going along with your form of modernity. Children are very stubborn. For some reason, they still insist on coming only from a man and a woman. And biologically, they still only discover their identity from that man and that woman. And like you said, the social science is extremely clear that they are the most likely to be safe and loved when they're raised by that man and that woman. And they suffer. Like, we have measured the length of the telomeres on every chromosome in their body shortens when they lose that man or that woman. So I'm sorry that children aren't keeping up with your progressive view of the family, but If I have to choose between your political priors and the kids, I'm going with the kids.
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A
Katie. We need to be also humble enough as Christians to say, you know, in the modern era, we haven't done so well with marriage. Our divorce rates are far too high. And so we need to recognize the fact that even before the LGBTQ crunch came into the culture, heterosexual marriage was in trouble. We set the stage for a disinterest in the institution as heterosexual couples. And, you know, my mom and dad divorced. Your mom and dad divorced. It's not uncommon today, unfortunately. What do we, as the Christian community, so often, even in our context, the couples can say, you know what, our kids will be better off if we're not together. The data does not support that.
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No, no. If you want to talk about the original, I'm gonna make kids do hard things so I don't have to. That's not same sex marriage. That's no fault divorce.
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Yeah.
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That was the place where we really said, hey, kids, this burden is too heavy for me. You take it instead. That's really what divorce is.
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Think of that.
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B
Yeah. And I mean, I say this obviously as a children's rights activist, but also my husband and I have been in ministry for 30 years, and I know that marriages can be hard. You know, so it's. At some point, every marriage is going to have to deal with something where they really genuinely struggle. But the choice is not, let's get out of this and nobody will struggle. The choice is, will the adults struggle through it? Get accountability therapy, grow up, do hard things, or will you force the kids to struggle? It's a trade off. Someone's going to do the hard thing. It has to be the adults.
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A
Well, and you and I are both those children. I mean, I was five when my mom and dad divorced. It crushed me because I didn't understand what was going on. Why can't we be together like all of my friends? Right? And I remember playing football in high school, they had Dad's night. And I am grateful for dad's night. It's a good thing. I didn't mind being one of two players out there that didn't have a dad to come out on the field.
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B
But it was painful.
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A
But it was painful. It's like, embarrassing. Where's my dad? And then what you start thinking about is, I was not important enough to him. And you know what? No matter what you. What kind of icing you put on it, it's factual. I wasn't as important as your drinking or the way you treated mom or your inability to reconcile your differences, that hurts.
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B
You know, it's really interesting because there are times where a marriage may need to dissolve or at least separate.
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A
Right. Abusive situations, all those things.
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Some addiction situations, abandonment issues or, you know, there are studies that show that high, high conflict marriages, you know, where you're throwing plates in the kitchen and screening obscenities, that children do experience some relief after that. Not as much as relief as they would if the adults had worked it out.
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A
Yeah, grown up.
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B
But the kids who suffer the Most are the 2/3. The 70% whose parents divorce when it wasn't high conflict. Right. When it's a no fault divorce, when it's a we fell out of love or actually he's the one that's going to fulfill me or we just didn't work it out or I didn't want to be there when he worked through his child baggage. Those are the kids that actually are the most traumatized. And I'll tell you why. It's, it's the same thing you went through. It is those kids going, I have no explanation for why I lost the home where both my mother and father were living, why I'm now sharing a new living space with my mother's boyfriend, or why this woman who broke up our family is now, you know, sharing this house with my father. I have lost the peace, the security, the stability, the joy that I had. And there's no explanation for. Must have been me, right? I must have been the problem. I must have done that. I must not have been worthy or lovable or I was the problem. And the kids who come from the, hey, there is a death. A parent that died or there was abuse or he walked out and left us. At least those kids have an explanation for why they have suffered and why they don't have what they desperately long for. But a lot of the people that are like the kids will be fine. They're resilient. You are deeply misinformed. And your children are probably going to suffer more than any other.
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A
Yeah. It's so true. And I, you know, again, I'll make this plug for Hope restored, something we do here, intensive marriage counseling. It's a four day program, but, you know, not quite, but a little under half will come with divorce papers already ready to go. And we have an 82% save rate. I think it's the best thing in the area of marriage. That's incredible for the Christian community.
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B
What's it called, because literally everybody listened to that.
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A
Hope restored, fight for Your marriage. And by fighting for your marriage, you're going to fight for your children.
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B
That's exactly right.
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A
And it's worth it. It's worth it. I'm so proud of that program. And if you're in that spot, just get ahold of us. We'll figure out a way to get you in there to help you with your marriage. Katie, I don't want to end the program without talking about kind of the science of what's happening today. Ivf, very controversial. You've kind of turned my head a bit on that because of your Stallworth North Star perspective. And I so appreciate this. But just describe even that controversial area of ivf.
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B
Well, I tell everybody that interviews me. Give me enough time and I will trigger you too. Because a lot of people in the Christian space are like, yeah, let's talk about same sex marriage and how that's hurt kids. Or yeah, let's talk about why gay men shouldn't be using surrogacy. But then I say, you know, IVF is responsible for destroying more embryonic life than the abortion industry is that we lose maybe four times the amount of unborn children to the baby making industry as we do the baby taking industry.
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A
It's something like 93% of those fertilized eggs don't. They're wasted.
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B
So you get 1,000 children's rights points for even knowing that because a lot of people don't. It's anywhere from 97 to 92% will lose their life. Maybe 7 to 3 to 7% will.
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Be born alive, actually single digit like.
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And why is it? Because you're going to eugenically screen out of existence most of those children. You will deem they do all kinds of genetic testing or sex selection or selection now for IQ or eye color. I mean, we are designing children. There are boutique clinics in California, for example, where 90% of the clientele aren't infertile. They want to pick their kid. That's problem number one with ivf. It destroys kids. It treats them as designer products, commodities, as commodities. Number two, of the 2% of children across this country that are born through IVF, a third to two thirds of them will lose their mother or father in the process. Because if you're making a baby in a laboratory, it's just as easy to use somebody else's egg or somebody else's sperm to get the kid. What does that mean for the child? That means that at the moment of conception they lose 50% of their biological identity. They're going to be raised apart from one adult that is the statistically the most likely to ensure they're safe and loved. They're probably going to share living spaces with an unrelated adult who always statistically increases rates of abuse and neglect. Some of those kids are going to go home to a house where there is no mother or father love at all, and then they will be starved of the critical. You know, Glenn Stanton here at Focus on the Family talks so much about the complementary ways mothers and fathers parenting. Neither of them are optional, but a lot of the kids born through IVF are going to be starved of that critical developmental input from a man or a woman. And so I know that it's hard for a lot of Christians to hear, but IVF is not your friend and surrogacy is not your friend. Sure, there are some sweet, infertile Christian heterosexuals who get children this way, but I'll tell you what, the big fertility industry is smuggling an awful lot of trafficking, eugenics, designer children and dead embryos under your false idea that that's all that IVF is.
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A
Yeah. And again, adoption is a great way to go.
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B
Adoption is the exact opposite of all of this. Right. Adoption seeks to amend a wound that a child has experienced. All of these other reproductive technologies where you're creating a child through a third party or using somebody else's wound, you're inflicting the wound. Right. In the world of adoption, adults do hard things for kids.
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It's relief.
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B
In the world of big fertility, kids do hard things for adults. They're totally different.
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A
Yeah. Wow, that is so well said. You know, the chaos and the culture and we're right at the end. Katie, I could just talk with you for hours.
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B
And again, you're gonna have to come to my place next time.
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A
Well, and your story is one of several stories in Truth Rising. I'm so a grateful that you were willing to participate. I'm looking forward to the next documentary that will be with you on this is a Child. And we'll have more news about that as the months roll along. But at the end here, you look at the chaos in the culture, the spiritual implications of what we're talking about, and we as Christians should be in tune with that. Can you foresee a time where this is actually corrected, that we get back to the benefits of marriage between a man and a woman and children from that union being the goal?
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B
If I have anything to do with it, yes.
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A
I love it.
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B
I.
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A
It seems like it's impossible.
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B
It seems impossible. But what we're talking about is fundamental natural Realities that God has built into the revealed creation. And you can hold that underwater for a while like a beach ball, but it will not stay underwater forever.
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A
True. It's rising.
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B
That's right. That's exactly right. It will re emerge. And you are either going to recognize these realities, these fundamental human truths, or you will ignore them. And you are going to see the demise of your culture and mass victimization of children. So we have got to choose. What do we want? And I will tell you. When you stand on the side of biblical truth, you will never be put to shame. You might be demonized for a time, but you will be proved correct. Right? That rock of the word of God, it is a sure foundation for a reason. And you can stand upon it in all of these different conversations.
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A
Yeah, it's so good. And again, thank you for being part of it. I'm just so encouraged by your enthusiasm. Your spine helps to stiffen my spine. So thank you. And I think there's thousands of people that would agree with that. So thank you.
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B
Well, we love everyone at my nonprofit loves Focus on the Family. We're very, very grateful for you guys.
- [25:21]
A
We love you guys. And let me turn to the listeners. I hope you've been inspired by the conversation today. That was the goal. You could see sitting around with Katie how you will be inspired. She just does it out of every pore of her. And this new documentary is one resource you can use to keep learning about engaging the culture. There is an art form to it, but it's not intimidating. It shouldn't be for the Christian. You just have to know what you're doing and it will help equip you to do that. Hear from the experts about the chaos of the culture and how to face the culture with truth and with grace. You'll hear incredible stories of ordinary people. They woke up one day like Katie, and all of a sudden by sunset they were in a different spot where people noticed them, begin to ridicule them. In Jack Phillips case, the baker in Colorado, he was on his way to court and eventually the Supreme Court. He is just the nicest guy. He just woke up and said, I'm a baker. I'm no expert, but he certainly has changed the world in this country through his obedience to Christ.
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C
Yeah. Watch those incredible stories in the documentary and learn how you can make an impact yourself when you stand up for trut. Stream the premiere today@truthrising.com and please support Focus on the Family. Partner with us financially. Your donation will help us continue providing biblical resources for individuals and families to help them navigate this culture. Donate Watch Truth Rising and Download the free 4 part study guide. The links are in the show notes and join us now. Join us next time as Dr. Josh Mulvihill encourages grandparents to disciple their grandchildren. One of the key methods in Scripture.
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A
That God gives to grandparents is sharing your testimony, talking about the work of God, the glorious deeds.
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C
Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we help you and your grandchildren thrive in.
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A
God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit truthrising. Com today. That's truthrising. Com.