← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:07]
Sean McDowell
It's okay to sit with questions. It's good. Over and over again, when I talk to people who've deconstructed their faith to the point of deconversion, I'm telling you, Jim, over and over and over again, what I hear is people saying, I didn't have room for questions in the church. My parents shot me down.
- [00:28]
Jim Daly
Well, professor, author and apologist Shaun McDowell is our guest today on FOCUS on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.
- [00:36]
John Fuller
You know, John, being aware of culture is so important. I mean, I like to engage the culture. I know the Lord tells me, especially in two Timothy, Galatians, other places when you do that, do it with grace, do it with love, do it with kindness. And I get all that. But it's important for us as Christians to understand the culture that we're in and what the Lord requires of us to proclaim truth, to love those around us, especially those that don't know him, so that we might crack their heart open to the possibility that Jesus is who he said he is and that he has a plan for your life as a non believer. Right. That excites me. I think at the root, I am an evangelist. I love engaging people that don't know the Lord because in my experience, nobody is beyond the reach of God, not a single person. And we have to remember that because there are people that cross your path and you're going, really, Lord, you could save that person? I don't know. But let me tell you, he's got a compassion and a heart and a love for every part of his creation. And today we're gonna talk with a Wonderful guest, Sean McDowell, whose dad, Josh McDowell, I've known for years. And I'm always excited to talk to Sean about the culture. His new book, A Rebels Manifesto, is just another great resource for young people and parents and grandparents to better understand the culture we're in.
- [01:55]
Jim Daly
Yeah. And you can learn more about Dr. Sean McDowell and his great book. We've got the link in the show notes.
- [02:01]
John Fuller
Sean, welcome back to FOCUS Family. It's always good to have you.
- [02:04]
Sean McDowell
Well, thanks for having me. This is a treat.
- [02:05]
John Fuller
I love that. You know, here at focus, we're kind of concentrating on five core things, discipleship and evangelism, which I would put this under. Also marriage, parenting, advocacy for children, and then engaging the culture. And, you know, your presence here today, you're kind of hitting those two bookends for us, discipleship and culture. And in that context, culture is changing. It feels like now Every generation, I mean, you and your dad must have these conversations. Josh was the guy for evangelism through the 70s and 80s, and I'm so grateful that he wrote evidence that demands a verdict. That became super important to me in college. It kind of rooted me to go against my professors who were belittling me for being a Christian at a state school and just passed that along to him. That meant the world to me. It gave me additional foundation to really support me there. But when you look at it, is it any different? There's nothing new under the sun. Is it harder today or is it just our perception that it's harder today because we're the adults in the room now?
- [03:11]
Sean McDowell
So one issue that's really prevalent is the issue of just mental health, depression, anxiety and loneliness. 73% of 18 to 22 year olds will say that they sometimes or always feel lonely. Now, there's between sometimes and always is significant, but this is a generation that many times describes themselves as the loneliest generation. Now, one reason might be that we hear about this all the time. So this, this generation is more likely to interpret depression or anxiety as some kind of phenomena tied to who they are. As previous generations would just kind of say, well, I'm having a bad day, so that's a piece of it. But I really do think there's a loneliness and there's a pain and there's a hurt in this generation that is different from previous generations. I mean, I had a chance to interview Stuart and Cliff Kneckley, and Cliff has been on college campuses since the 80s doing a lot what my dad does, just debating and talking with non Christians. And I asked him the same question. And he said to me, he goes, sean, the questions are the same about does God exist? Why is there evil in the world? Who is Jesus? Is there a life after death? But the difference today is there's just so much hurt and pain and brokenness that it shapes how this generation processes the truth. And that's exactly my experience as well.
- [04:36]
John Fuller
You know, Sean, when you look at the spiritual connotation of this, you know, the first scripture somebody ever shared with me when I first became a believer at 15 was John 10:10. Now, if you don't know the scripture and you're not coming from a Christian family like me, give us a little more reference, because there's a lot of Johns in the Bible. There's John, there's one John, second John, three John. I was going, okay, which John is it? But I found it John 10:10. The thief comes to Steal, kill and destroy. When you look at that application, sometimes we can overcomplicate something so simple and right in our face. The enemy of our soul is coming to steal, kill and destroy. God's work in our life, the abundance that he provides for us, the way, the truth and the life, so that's his reason for existence, is to destroy us in our relationship with God. In that context, when you look at what technology is doing, the loneliness factor, all the things that you're talking about when you put that spiritual lens on, is he being that successful?
- [05:41]
Sean McDowell
Well, I'm not anti technology. I love my smartphone, I use it. I don't think technology is bad, but we often don't think about how technology affects us, how technology affects our discernment of truth, how technology affects our relationships. And oftentimes just with students, I'll ask them this question. I'll say, do you think smartphones are good or bad? And they're not quite sure what to do with that. I'll say, well, take a car. It's actually good, but it can be used for bad. But think about how much a car is change the way we experience the world, how much further we can go. How does a smartphone change the way you think about God? How does it change the way you relate to somebody sitting next to you? And I found that with students just asking those questions, helping them process it, because yes, Satan is using it as a tool. Now we're using technology here, hopefully for good, to spread the truth. But Satan can use the very same technology and is using it through social media, having a huge influence on the lives of this generation.
- [06:46]
John Fuller
Yeah, let me parlay that into the discussion. Of course you're a trained professor and you can have those discussions and feel confident about those discussions. You've read a lot, you've learned a lot and you should be probably the smartest guy in the room at Biola. Maybe not always. Some of you seem pretty good, but you know, for the average parent, for example, or maybe even a grandparent, and you're talking to your 15, 16 year old about deep concepts, you want to have those conversations. And I'm just reminded of Charlie Brown, you know, remember the adult, wah, wah, wah, wah. And to your point, the entertainment industry packages their persuasion in such bite sized forms and influential ways and storytelling is powerful. And here we come along kind of the clunky parent trying to tell our kids about what the Bible has to say about truth. And it's probably not as sophisticated or dry or, you know, whatever. However the kids are translating that how do we become more effective as parents, Parents to really bring up issues like cancel culture, what's really true, what's really at stake? Think about it this way, without kind of impugning that burgeoning child and their freedom and their independence as a 15, 16 year old. Does that all make sense?
- [08:05]
Sean McDowell
This is an important question. I think the data shows, and this is based on Christian Smith, a sociologist at the University of Notre Dame, that since going back at least to 1972, parents have the most significant influence on the life and beliefs of their kids. Not Hollywood, not Netflix, not Disney.
- [08:24]
John Fuller
That's hard to believe, but it's true.
- [08:26]
Sean McDowell
It is true. It's consistently now. That doesn't mean those other factors aren't significant. They are. But parents by default have the most influence over their kids. So start there. How do we have influence? Well, the most important thing, if you want to speak in your kid's life, is to build relationships with your kids. Hands down, intimate, close, caring relationships. And we could talk about what it takes. You guys do that better than anybody, what it means to build those relationships. But they're not going to listen to you for the most part, if you don't have a relationship. The other thing is you got to pick the right time and the right place. So I've learned with my kids. Just one example that pops to mind after sporting events. My son, he's playing basketball, Biola, which is fun. The moment before we get in the car, he wants to talk about the game. Dad, how'd I do? What you think about this play? My daughter does not want to talk about volleyball. She needs time to process it. If we try to talk about it, she's going to get more and more frustrated. So we just learned that our kids have different wirings, different interests. Is it morning? Is it night? Is it when they're in the middle of video games? Probably not. Is it right when they walk home from school? Maybe not. You got to find the right time and you gotta find the right place. And I've also found just asking questions is the best way to engage kids. Not gotcha questions, but genuine, sincere, interested questions. I found when I do that, for the most part, my kids are interested in having those kind of conversations with.
- [09:57]
John Fuller
Me, you know, in that context. Again, I don't want parents to miss this. The mechanism of what that is doing. I mean, that is very much what Jesus did with parables.
- [10:07]
Sean McDowell
That's right.
- [10:07]
John Fuller
He would ask a question to the woman at the well, to those ready to stone, the woman caught in adultery. You know, who's without sin, There's a game stopper. But the point of that, speak to the mechanism of that because again, we can over complicate it. Why is Jesus giving us that example of asking questions not only of our children, but of everybody around us? What does it do mentally, intellectually, with that person? We're asking the question of in the.
- [10:36]
Sean McDowell
Gospels, in acts, we have 340 questions that Jesus asked. In Paul's letters, there's 262. There's 3,000 questions, roughly in the Bible, the God who made our brains, made our brains to respond to stories and parables, like you said, also to questions. I mean, a statement doesn't invite reflection. It almost. It can create a sense of defensiveness. A question invites conversation, depending on how you ask. It can also show a level of humility and interest. And it just invites the other person to think and reflect. So it's actually a skill to learn. I talk, my wife and I talk about this a lot. And I listen to people, interviewers who ask good questions. And I'm always thinking, why did Jesus ask that question there? Why didn't he ask a different question? It's a skill to learn and is the single best way, I think, for evangelism to talk to our kids. I even asked with my wife, I think, what questions have I not asked my wife to unlock certain things about our relationship that I've never thought of before? Questions, questions, questions, you know?
- [11:51]
John Fuller
So I'm filling out a grant proposal for focus. And the grant, they wanted me to answer a question which is, if you could ask God one question, what would it be?
- [12:00]
Sean McDowell
Wow, that's interesting.
- [12:01]
John Fuller
But it's a good question. But I just feel like we sometimes can get wrapped around the grievance of questions too. You know, Lord, why did this happen to me, really?
- [12:10]
Sean McDowell
And you know what? It's okay to sit with questions. It's good. Over and over again, when I talk to people who've deconstructed their faith to the point of deconversion, I'm telling you, Jim, over and over and over again, what I hear is people saying, I didn't have room for questions in the church. My parents shot me down. My pastor just told me what to believe. He said, well, just read the Bible and pr.
- [12:35]
John Fuller
That's fair. That's a fair criticism.
- [12:37]
Sean McDowell
And I hear it a lot. I thank God in my family that my dad was not threatened by questions. He would ask us questions. He wouldn't give us simple answers. He wanted to teach us how to think and how to reflect. So that's another thing questions do. And by the way, the older I get, the more questions I have for God, not less. And you said earlier I'm supposed to be the smartest person in the room, not remotely in comparison with the faculty at biol and Tao, but. Are you kidding me? But the older I get, the more I actually realize I don't understand. And the more questions I have, and that's okay. And that's good with faith. And by asking questions you help a young person understand, you can believe and follow God and not have it all figured out.
- [13:20]
John Fuller
Fair enough.
- [13:21]
Jim Daly
And, Shawn, I'm thinking about a couple of my kids who aren't exactly, we'll say, closely walking with the Lord right now as I have conversations with them. I love this theme of questions. What are some questions I can ask them that won't get into triggering them or causing them to say, well, you're just in lecture mode again, dad. So how do I unpack kind of a worldview? What are you thinking? What are you building your life on without trying to slip in, you know, some of what they already know, I believe.
- [13:50]
Sean McDowell
Obviously you're not implying this, but sometimes people think if I just ask the right question, it's a trick to get my kids to come back to believe what I want them to. Sometimes people ask the question that spirit. I think the real beginning of a good question is the motivation and the heart behind it, which I know you want to love your kids. I'm curious about that. Curious is exactly the right word. A lot of my own interviews, I want to be charitable, and I also am curious. That's what motivates me, though. So if somebody's just curious, they're going to come up with a question that's not a gotcha question. So not knowing the backstory, obviously here some things come to mind. Say, you know, you grew up in a Christian home. Tell me about the first time you started to have questions. What were those questions? Who did you go to with those questions? What are some ways I responded that you appreciate? What are some ways? If I could rewind the clock and maybe respond differently, you would have wanted me to respond differently. What questions do you have now about God? How much do you think about God in your mind, knowing that your dad is a committed, outspoken Christian? What do you think it looks like for me to love you at this stage in your life? These are the kinds of questions that are interesting to me, and you don't have to agree with them. But this shows humility. It Shows curiosity. It shows kindness. And you know what? Sometimes when we're parents, I've asked my kids some questions where I make myself vulnerable, and sometimes I'm like, whew, that's the answer I was hoping for. Other times I'm like, okay, that was painful. Like, I really needed to hear that. I'd almost rather not hear it. But the only way I can love you is by hearing that and adjusting.
- [15:42]
John Fuller
Sean, one of the things when you said curiosity. That's the word, the experience that I've had is that the one that is damaging is curiosity with an agenda, if I could say it that way, because I've had those questions asked and I know the person is asking a question. It's like a salesman, right? It's like, you want that in red or blue? I think that's a big distinction. When you are talking with people, don't go into that conversation with a preferred outcome that you want because that is felt. It is smelt. Especially a teenager. Oh, my gosh, can they sniff that out a mile away? And we need to have that artfulness to be able to be interested. Without that agenda, you'll have far more good conversations with your teens. I think.
- [16:28]
Sean McDowell
I think I might say that if you have curiosity with an agenda. I'm not sure how much curiosity you really have.
- [16:36]
John Fuller
Correct. It gets overrun. It's like a plant and a weed.
- [16:38]
Sean McDowell
Yeah, it's like selective seeking an answer to get the outcome you want.
- [16:45]
John Fuller
And frankly, I don't think that's godly, really, in my opinion. Let's move to an example, because folks love examples. You and your son decided and agreed upon going and seeing the Freddie Mercury biography. I think it was Bohemian Rhapsody. I saw that movie not with my son, but my son saw it as well. So we had a very similar conversation. But what was your takeaway going with your son, and what was the discussion like?
- [17:11]
Sean McDowell
Yeah, that movie was probably about seven years ago or so. So my son, who's now 21, was 14. It's PG 13. He goes, hey, dad, I'm just really interested in seeing this movie. And of course, I asked him, why that movie and why does it interest you? And. And I thought, you know, it's PG13, so it's not R, but there's some ideas in this I don't love. So I said to him, and I talked with his mom about it. I said, what do you think if we go to this movie and I'll pay, you know, a hundred dollars plus for popcorn tickets? These days, if, when we're done. You just talk to me about it, tell me what you think, tell me what you saw and reflect on it. He goes, sure, dad. So we go to the movie, we came back and we probably sat down for a half an hour or so at our dinner table and. And I just remember asking them questions like, hey, tell me what you thought. Is that what you expected? What surprised you most in the movie? What was your favorite scene? Which character were you drawn to? Then I said, I always start positive. Were there any things in the movie, as Christians we can celebrate and we can agree with? Are there any ideas that are actually biblical in this film? Then I said, are there any ideas in this film that should give us pause? Did you ever feel like you were being preached at in this movie? And. And he drew it out and we just talked about it. And so the idea was, look, faith is really best passed on in conversation like that. In relationship. I just had to ask questions and then at times weigh in with my reflection. That's what I try to do with my kids when I can.
- [18:42]
John Fuller
Yeah. You know, in the culture right now. Getting back to your book, a rebels manifesto, part of this that I've seen and I fall prey to this. I think it's human nature to be accepted, to be liked, all those kinds of things, especially people people. But one of the things that seems to have the gravitas in the culture today is tolerance. Like, if you talk about what is a religion of the day, tolerating everybody's perspective is kind of like the measure of a good person, good people, bad people. And I'm just curious about that. When we look at what are the qualities that knight you? A good person and then a bad person. And how do we as Christians stand in the wave of the culture moving downstream and say, wait a minute, we're gonna destroy marriage. If we destroy marriage as a man and a woman, we're gonna harm the culture because children will be brought up in homes that don't have a mother and a father, both of which bring great attributes to a child's learning and capability and emotional well being. That's all proven by science. All the research states that. And nobody wants to listen to it. Wa wa wa. So how do we teach our kids not to be swept away in that cultural tide?
- [19:55]
Sean McDowell
So you and I, and probably most of listeners or viewers watched this cultural shift from the outside. We observed it happening. This generation, especially Gen Z, has grown up within it. They feel it. It's not just an academic experience for them. They feel like, what if I Don't use the preferred pronouns. What if I stand firm in this? I'm called bigoted and hateful and maybe homophobic. So it's very personal to them. In a different fashion, what I want to do is I want to. I want to help students see where culture gets certain things right and where culture gets certain things wrong. So without going into too much depth, I think in. In the MCU Marvel movies that climax with Infinity War and Endgame, there's an example of culture getting love right, meaning all these movies, billions of dollars, climax with a question, what is the ultimate hero? And it's Iron man willingly laying down his life as a sacrifice to save half the universe. That's a very gospel type message. So I'll point with this generation, I'll say, you know what? Because they're made in the image of God, sometimes people understand that's what real love is. Other times in our culture, love equals affirmation. If I don't affirm how you view yourself or how you feel, you are bigoted and hateful and intolerant. So I want to unpack that with students to say, is it always loving to affirm how somebody feels, or is it loving at time, actually to resist what somebody feels? And intuitively, we know that's what love does. That's what it means to be a parent. But this generation has been so pressed with this false idea of love, we just got to take a step back, help them look at it. And then, of course, look at the example of Jesus, right? He lays down his life, but he also called out sin and he called out evil when he saw it. So I think on our hearts, we know what love is. This generation does. It's just a matter of unpacking some of the lies and confusions in this culture and helping them see what their heart really knows is true.
- [22:10]
John Fuller
Sean, let's end here. One of the big debates, and I see this. Charlie Kirk is on this all the time. But this idea that Jesus said, judge not lest you be judged. And then there's a reference to Paul occasionally, too, where people will cite him saying, don't judge the world. The Father will judge the world, but judge one another in the church, basically, that's a paraphrase. So when you get that response from the quasi. Let me say quasi believer, whatever that might mean, someone who's not fully convictional toward Christ, but the person that he doesn't want to judge others, because, I mean, that's not what our role is. And we shouldn't be harsh on the world or communities that differ with us. How do we process that Scripture? Judge not. Should we just never think about it or speak of it, but give us some definition so we're healthier.
- [22:59]
Sean McDowell
Whenever you hear a Bible verse, the best strategies to go back to the context and ask how is it being used there? So of course, judge not lest you be judged is in Matthew chapter seven in the Sermon on the Mount. And interestingly enough, Jesus says, you got to take the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of another. Why? So then you can make a right judgment. He's not saying don't make moral judgments. He's saying, you better judge yourself first with the same standard by which you judge others. Of course. That's why in John 7:24, Jesus says, Make a righteous judgment. So there are some kind of judgments we're supposed to make and some kind of judgments we're not supposed to make. So I'm not supposed to judge somebody's heart? Right. This is 1st Samuel 16:7. Man looks at the outward appearance, but God judges the heart. I cannot assess somebody's spiritual state with perfect clarity and assess their heart. God is the one who's ultimately going to do that. But if you go Back to Matthew 7 in the Sermon on the Mount, in that same passage, he talks about recognizing false prophets and you'll know them by their fruit. Well, that's a kind of judgment that you're supposed to make. So we've got to clarify what judgments we make, what judgments we don't make. And there is a certain sense in 1 Corinthians chapter 2, where we have accountability and judgment within the church and church discipline that we don't have with outsiders. There's a different standard that is there. But yeah, of course we're supposed to.
- [24:44]
John Fuller
Make judgments and certainly be willing to point to those things again with the goal of trying to point people toward Christ. I mean, that's the goal. And we can't stop doing that because the Holy Spirit, what is he going to be able to use if people feel no conviction about anything? Right. Including ourselves, maybe first and foremost with ourselves. So, Sean, this has been great. Thanks. Let's come back next time and keep the discussion going. What a wonderful book. A Rebels Choosing Truth, Real justice and Love Amid the Noise of Today's World. That says it all. This is one of the resources you really need to go through with if your teen and 20 something. I'm looking forward to providing it to my two boys so they can get a read of it and that's how you build in Christian faith within your kids, your grandkids. So get a copy from us. We can do that in a great way. Just make a gift of any amount. A monthly gift is wonderful. One time gift is good too. But just send that gift and we'll send a copy of Sean's book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.
- [25:43]
Jim Daly
Yeah. Call today. Donate as you can. Our number is 800, the letter A in the Word family. And of course we have the details in the show notes. And Jim, this ties right in to something that we're very excited about coming up very soon.
- [25:56]
John Fuller
I'm super excited. We were just on it. We came up with the concept of doing a follow on to the Truth Project, which a lot of people participated, millions of people participated in. It's called Truth Rising. And we've gone out to the cultural voices to say, what are you noticing? Some Christian, some non Christian, and. And people that are also just leaders are saying something's wrong in Western civilization. And the core truth of it is, is that we're putting the wrong fuel in the engines of democracy. And these folks kind of help us better understand what that fuel needs to be. And it's Judeo Christian values. How do we base the flourishing of a culture on anything else? The engine sputters with the things that we're trying right now. And I think, people, it's a 90 minute document release in September. Sean, this is right up your alley. You're gonna love this.
- [26:51]
Sean McDowell
Oh, man, I can't wait to see it. Let me know. I wanna spread the word.
- [26:54]
John Fuller
Yeah, it's gonna be really, really good and I'm looking forward to it.
- [26:57]
Sean McDowell
Yeah.
- [26:57]
Jim Daly
And you can sign up to watch the premiere of Truth Rising when it comes out on September 5, all for free on our website. The link is in the show notes. Well, on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today. For Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [27:23]
Unknown
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