← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:01]
Pam Farrell
The walled city was like heaven with the pearly gates, only they were much more golden then and the angels were above that and they were dancing and they were glittering gold. And then it was shift and morphed to the mountains and the mountains even were like even more beautiful than any mountain range that I've ever seen anywhere.
- [00:22]
John Fuller
That's Pam Ferrell sharing a bit of her incredible out of this world experience on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. She joins us along with John Burke. I'm John Fuller and thank you for joining us, John.
- [00:33]
Jim Daly
I'm really excited about the program we're about to record and I think people are going to enjoy it. John Burke has been here a few times with such breathtaking accounts of people who have had near death experiences and really a phenomenal way to approach those things, to categorize them. We'll hear more from him in a moment. But I've just always been taken by that. His wonderful book Imagine Heaven made a big difference in Gene and I's life. I mean, we just were captivating, captivated by it. And we also learned one of our popular guests and good friend Pam Farrell had an experience herself. And we know that we had to bring John and Pam together and kind of dialogue about that experience and get John's expertise on what happened. I'm so excited to dig into this story and it's just again, one example of thousands, literally hundreds of thousands of examples of where people have turned, touched that perimeter of heaven and been able to come back and then explain it. This is so good. Yeah.
- [01:34]
John Fuller
We live in a world where we think this is it and the truth is, no, there's a whole lot more beyond this. And John Burke, just by way of background, John founded Gateway Church in Austin, Texas. And you mentioned his book Imagine Heaven that sold over a million copies and continues to be a bestseller. Pam Farrell is a speaker and author and as you said, she's been here a number of times as well. She and Bill, her husband, typically speak to relational issues and concerns and well being, but she's captured her story in a book called Glimpse of God's One Woman's Near Death Experience. You can learn more about our guests and their books at the website. We've got the link in the show notes.
- [02:14]
Jim Daly
Jon. Pam, welcome back to focus. It's always good to see you.
- [02:18]
Pam Farrell
Thank you. Such an honor. Privilege to be with you all.
- [02:21]
John Burke
Yeah, great to be back.
- [02:22]
Jim Daly
Yeah, it's fun. Let me ask this of you, John, first before we start to unpack Pam, your story. You've written Imagine heaven. Imagine the God of heaven, which is the follow up and additional excellent resource. But just lay the Christian perspective on what we call near death experience. Just give us that quick tutorial on it and what you've experienced.
- [02:46]
John Burke
Yeah, so I think they are testimonies from God of the reality of heaven and hell and God's reality, the triune God of the Bible. And that's what I'm trying to show in my writing. And imagine heaven. I'm showing how when you look at the millions of people, and it's millions.
- [03:07]
Jim Daly
Who have had not hundreds of Thousands.
- [03:09]
John Burke
But millions, 2019 study reported by the European Academy of Neurology across 35 countries found that 5% of the population of all those countries has had a near death experience when they were near clinical death.
- [03:24]
Jim Daly
Well, I think what I've appreciated when we've talked in times past is just for the Christian and I would say for the viewer and listener right now, just leave your mind open for a little while and just say, lord, show me, let me hear this conversation. And I think that's what we have. We line up on one side saying even to the extreme that this is somehow demonic, or the other side, which is where you've written this is an insight we're looking into something that we don't know well.
- [03:54]
John Burke
And it's important to realize that what people report is not necessarily the same as how they interpret what they report.
- [04:02]
Jim Daly
Which is your distinction.
- [04:04]
John Burke
That's very critical. That's why it took me 35 years of researching thousands of them to understand all these things that someone. So in Imagine Heaven, I trace like 40 commonalities of these experiences that people report and showing how they all align with the expectation of the afterlife in scripture. And what you have to understand is someone may just have a few of those. You know, they leave their body, they feel all these new senses, not five senses, but more like 50 senses. Maybe they meet people deceased on the other side and then they come back. Well, whether you're an atheist or a believer in Jesus or a Buddhist or a Muslim, you can interpret that a million different ways. But if you put all the commonalities together, it's this beautiful picture of the reality of the life to come. And as many say, it is more real than this life. They feel more alive than they've ever felt. And the presence of Jesus is the highlight of it all.
- [05:09]
Jim Daly
Well, in addition to that, you have said in the past that those consistencies do point to scriptural references. Oh, absolutely. And that's one of the great things you've done in your book. So, Pam, let me turn to you. Welcome in.
- [05:21]
Pam Farrell
Thank you.
- [05:22]
Jim Daly
We want to dive into that story that you had. You had a health scare that landed you in the hospital. So paint the picture for us and what took place.
- [05:30]
Pam Farrell
Yeah. So it started off with I had diabetes and 1.5, which is kind of a fragile diabetes, hard to, like, manage and hard to medicate. And I went to an endocrinologist and she gave me some new meds, but they were supply chain issues, so I couldn't take them on this trip that I was going on to speak for Creatives in Texas. And on the way to Texas, somehow I thought I hurt my shoulder and I was in excruciating pain. And so when I landed, my sweet mentee, she's like, helping me drag all my things to the car, and she's like, do you need to go to the doctor? And I'm like, no, no, I'll just gut it out. I just need some, you know, pain over the counter stuff. So I took various over the counter things and I was in pain more and more. And then so I called Bill. I said, okay, pick me up as close to the gate as you can. I mean, I literally can't even pick up my backpack.
- [06:30]
Jim Daly
Bill's your husband?
- [06:30]
Pam Farrell
Yes, my husband Bill. And so he caught me. I was like crying as I stepped out of. He's like, you need to get to the doctor. I'm like, let me just go to sleep tonight. And tomorrow morning, first thing, 5:30, amen, we went to the neighborhood urgent care, and that physician gave me stronger painkillers. And then he happened to take like an X ray and he called back and he's like, you broke your rib. That's why you're in so much pain. And then because I had broken my rib and I was in so much pain, my sugar elevated like crazy. And the all the over the counter meds, plus the new med that he had given me, totally shut down my digestive system. And so I became toxic. And the doctor later explained that I had some kind of an infection. And so on Sunday, that year was just two years ago. It was hot, but I had five blankets on me. I couldn't get warm. And I stood up and I was dizzy and I. And I grabbed the sides of the RV that Bill uses for the office, and I grabbed my heart as he walked in. And I said, I think I'm having a heart attack, Bill. And my dad died of a heart attack at 62. And so it caught his attention he's like taking you to the ER right now. Five minutes later, we're at the best hospital in town. And the two doctors that were on call, one was a specialist in diabetes, the other was a specialist in heart. And so that diabetes specialist said, oh, I know what's happening here. It's a dk, which is like a really long way to say you're going to have a diabetic coma. If we don't halt this, you could die. And so they put me in a medically induced coma to try to save my life. They basically had a reset my whole body. And as they put me in to the medically induced coma, all I remember is the doctor said, pam, you need to slow down your breathing. I'm like, I can't. That's the last thing I remember is yelling at the doctor. But then the peace of God that passes all understanding had surrounded me. And so I had this overwhelming peace. And then as I stepped into what I call a glimpse of God's glory, the heavenlies, I saw a picture of, you know, Jesus was wrapped around me. And people always say, did you see Jesus? I said, no. He wrapped me up in his presence and it was fully peaceful, it's fully joyful, is fully full of love, hope, beauty, like everything you can think of. And I could see the gates of heaven how you picture it when you read the Word. And there were angels. There's angels of all kinds. And they were every shape and size and ethnicity and were filled with glitter, like the kind of shining glitter you can't even make in this world. And the angels were dancing before Jesus, and I could see them. And I was asking Jesus, okay, so is like, am I, like, dead? Is this heaven? Like, what's going on here? And we were communicating, but not with words, but rather his mind with my mind. And then I. The angels would like, kind of morph after this. Beautiful dancing would occur. They would morph, and it turned into mountaintops with rushing rivers of gold. And I'm like, what's up with this mountaintop thing? What are these rivers of gold? It looks like people that I love are scooping up all the gold. And I couldn't tell by their faces. I could tell by the way I felt about those that I loved. And he's like, pam, every day for the past decade at 3:20, you've prayed Ephesians 3:20, that God would do exceedingly, abundantly, beyond all you can ask, think, dream, or feel. I'm showing you what prayer looks like on my side.
- [10:18]
Jim Daly
You said, that quickly. I want to make sure listeners, viewers catch that at 3:20am you would set your alarm 3:20pm. I'm not up at 3:20pm okay, well, you would set your alarm for 3:20pm I do.
- [10:29]
Pam Farrell
And every day I pray that God would do exceedingly, abundantly, beyond all we can ask, think, dream or feel. Feel. Ephesians 3:20. And towards the end of my time there, I, I said, okay, so I am so happy to stay here. It is beautiful, it is amazing, it is incredible. But God, I also know that I have two grandsons that are ready to be born in two months and I have seven grandkids all together. Then I would love to pour into their life, but not my will, but yours be done. And just then Jesus said, okay, so you've been on the outside, the gates have not opened for you. It is not your time, Pam, I want you to go back. I have more for you to do. And just then, boom, my eyes opened. I was in the ICU by bells and whistles that I was connected to. Like, we're going off. The nurse ran in and Bill had been sent home about 3 in the morning. So my nurse ran in and I'm on a ventilator and my hands are tied down and so I can't talk. And I see this whiteboard over in the corner with a pen and I point at it. She's like, you want to write me a note? And I nodded my head. So she brought it over and I wrote, thanks, heart, happy face. And I put an arrow towards her and she started crying. She's like, nobody ever thanks us. And in my head I'm like, what's wrong with people? You save people's lives every day and nobody ever thanks you. And just then Bill walked in, he's like, you're back. You're all the way back, you're writing and you're bossing people around. You're back.
- [12:07]
Jim Daly
I love it.
- [12:08]
Pam Farrell
Little bit of humor.
- [12:09]
Jim Daly
I love it.
- [12:10]
John Fuller
Well, that's Pam Farrell and obviously a very serious but also a very life giving story about her experiences. And she's captured some of that in her book, Glimpse of God's One Woman's Near Death Experience. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and we have John Burke in the studio with us as well. His book is called Imagine Heaven and you can get both of those books, they're bundled for you at our store and you can find that when you click the link in the show notes. And we also have a free audio collection covering this Topic with more conversations featuring John Burke, Lee Strobel and Randy Alcorn. Look for the Remembering the Hope of Heaven audio collection. When you're at our website, John, I.
- [12:55]
Jim Daly
Could see your eyes and the intensity.
- [12:57]
John Burke
This is all the questions I want to ask.
- [13:01]
Jim Daly
And so I think there you've done this for thousands of people talking with them about those experiences. You come from that engineering background, you were agnostic. But speak to Pam's experience and as you have interviewed other near death experience people, the spiritual connection to that. What are we hearing? What are you hearing?
- [13:22]
John Burke
So interestingly, you went into the coma and you were instantly there at the gates of heaven.
- [13:30]
Pam Farrell
I was. Bill says it's kind of unfair because I got this beautiful Hallmark heaven amazing experience and he got like made for tv. Er, so it was, he was like praying the whole time that I would make it. And in the whole heaven experience, I just felt like I was home.
- [13:52]
John Burke
Yeah, it's interesting. Dr. Mary Neal, who I also interviewed, said she died underwater in a kayak. 30 minutes.
- [13:59]
Pam Farrell
Oh, I remember her story. Yeah, yeah.
- [14:01]
John Burke
So she said Jesus was. As soon as she said God your will be done, she physically felt Jesus holding her, surrounding her, enveloping her. And I asked how did you know it was Jesus? And she said, it's like if I saw my husband in the grocery store, I don't have to ask who are you? Or are you my husband? It's like I just knew.
- [14:22]
Jim Daly
That's something, John, in that way. I mean the critics who will say, some doctors in fact will say, well, this might just be a near death situation where our brain is excreting certain hormones in order to help us cope.
- [14:37]
John Burke
The neurotransmitters flooding your brain hit some.
- [14:40]
Jim Daly
Of that talk about what you've done in research to combat that and keep it more on a spiritual plane.
- [14:48]
John Burke
Well, yeah, in the new book and Imagine the God of Heaven, chapter two, I talk about science, skeptics and NDEs and I go through. Because there are lots of alternate explanations other than what people like Pam typically say, which is, I was more alive than I've ever been in a place more real than this. This is the shadow. That's the real thing.
- [15:09]
Jim Daly
That's common.
- [15:10]
John Burke
That's common. So that's the simple explanation. You know, there's a scientific principle called Occam's Razor, which is, you know, in the complexity of options, go with the simplest explanation. Well, that's the simplest explanation, but there are lots of alternatives like oxygen deprivation to the brain anoxia, something called fighter pilot syndrome. Where they get narrow tunnel and there's a bright light at the end. And they say, well see, that's a near death experience. But interestingly so some go through a tunnel to this place, but she was just there. And so was Don Piper. He was just there. So it's. And others, they go out of our atmosphere and accompanied by angels through outer space. It's wild, right? So for me, you know, I put 10 points of evidence in this chapter too, but just three of them real quick. One is people often do see they're in a spiritual body, just like Paul talks about in First Corinthians 15, which he says is buried in brokenness, but is raised in dunam. That's the word we get dynamite. Raised in power. And these new powers of the spiritual body are thought to thought, heart to heart, perfect communication. Eyesight that's telescopic, you can see for thousands of miles. I mean, and experiencing sensations of even how things grow, a connectedness.
- [16:36]
Pam Farrell
Everything's beautiful. Like if you picture a pastoral scene, it would be the most beautiful painting you've ever seen. God puts the most beautiful experiences whatever I think he wants you to see so that you draw closer. Yeah, like I mostly saw the gates of glory and experienced him, but anything I looked at, whether it was like the angels or whether it was the mountains, they all were the most amazing beauty. Like you can't even describe colors.
- [17:13]
John Burke
So this is the mountain green.
- [17:16]
Pam Farrell
So the walled city was like heaven with the pearly gates, only they were much more golden then. And the angels were above that and they were dancing and they were glittering gold. And then it was shift and morphed to the mountains. And the mountains even were like, we're right here in Colorado Springs. I mean, these are beautiful mountains. They were even more beautiful than any mountain range that I've ever seen anywhere with the rushing golden rivers. So I think that God can't help himself. It's just going to be beautiful.
- [17:47]
Jim Daly
You know, at the end here, I mean, this is so much to take in. People are going, what? But when Gene and I read your book, John, particularly both of them, in fact, the thing that it did for us both practically, like intellectually but also emotionally is almost like a preparation. And I remember at the end of reading that just feeling like the way I want to go into this is yahoo. Not fearful. And you know, again, we as Christians, we sometimes behave like we're not entirely sure. And some of that is understandable. I mean, we've not, many of us have not had that experience, Pam, that you've had. And I think in that context, with so many people that you have interviewed, you have to be going, wow, this is just a transition. Like you just said a moment ago, this is the shadow. What's to come. Is the for real.
- [18:43]
John Burke
I mean, what they've commonly said to me is I was alive and then I was more alive. I was conscious and then I was super conscious. Like, I don't. There wasn't death. Jesus said, God is not the God of the dead, he's the God of the living. And yet we somehow picture the life to come a little bit less than this. It's not going to be less.
- [19:04]
Pam Farrell
Right? And Jesus says that I am the way, the truth and the life. And that word life is. Zoe. That life that is created and sustained, sustained by God, Zoe. I mean, that's how I experienced it. And shortly after that, I went to a conference and they wanted me to share my experience and I did that. And a friend of mine said, I just picked up this little book. It's by an author that seems to really know what he's talking about. Pam John Burke. So the first book that I read, wanting God's theology of what had just happened to me, was Imagine Heaven by John. And I've since given that to so many people who found comfort when they got bad news about, you know, a terminal illness or maybe they've walked somebody through to heaven and they wanted to know, why did my mom reach up and say, do you see them? You know, why did it seem like they could see a glimpse of God's glory at the end of their days? And John's book has been a huge comfort to many people through really hard times. It's given them a glimpse of God's glory.
- [20:13]
Jim Daly
That's what we fell in love with. And John, you know, don't let these accolades go to your head, but let me say this. You know, every year we measure the impact Focus has had. Last year for that 12 month period, we had about 193,000 people make a decision for Christ.
- [20:29]
Pam Farrell
Awesome.
- [20:29]
Jim Daly
And we're right, it is awesome. And we never measured it before and we just didn't think about it in that way. But family is a great evangelistic tool because we're mostly coming from broken feelings and emotions. And the Lord can use that to rescue his people from that pain. And pain probably starts in the family, to be honest. But in that context, John, as a pastor who has done this, now, you came from that engineering, agnostic place, but I so respect the diligence in which you have done this work and the way you've applied it, hearing a story like Pam's and then doing that thousands of times and then correlating this into scriptural references and all, what is the pitch to the non believer where you used to be and now where you're no longer, because you have seen this and heard this so consistently, so vibrantly. I know you don't fear the next step and speak to that nonbeliever.
- [21:29]
John Burke
Jim, There is so much evidence, if evidence is really what you want. And you know, I didn't even get into it, but verifiable observations. So what I was saying is when people are out of their bodies, they can see what's happening in their resuscitation. I interviewed cardiologists who said, I started interviewing these patients and they described the resuscitation I did in a way that they couldn't possibly have known. I could have used the recording to teach other physicians how to do resuscitation.
- [22:00]
Jim Daly
They were that alert.
- [22:01]
John Burke
Well, in seeing, it's that they somehow had a perspective out of their body. They had no brainwaves and yet they're able to report on things that. There have been studies done that show their observations are 92% completely accurate.
- [22:18]
Jim Daly
Wow.
- [22:18]
John Burke
Now that's, that's unbelievable. That's one second. When people blind from birth have a near death experience, they can see and they report seeing things like the light of heaven. And we're talking about consistent reports of blind people and sighted people that the light of heaven comes out of everything and it's not like light on earth. It's love and it's life all together.
- [22:43]
Jim Daly
And they know it and feel it.
- [22:45]
John Burke
They see it and see it and experience it. But a blind person wouldn't have heard that. And that's what John says in Revelation 21. There's no sun and moon in heaven, for the glory of God is its light, and the Lamb Jesus is its lamp, and the nations will walk in that light.
- [23:01]
Pam Farrell
In first Corinthians it says, no eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has even imagined what God has prepared for those. So it is beyond our comprehension. Because isn't that the kind of God we want? Yes, that's the God of the Bible. That is bigger and stronger, more beautiful than anything we can imagine.
- [23:21]
John Burke
And that's the third thing I'd say to an atheist or an agnostic is that, you know, I interviewed people personally, 70 from every continent, for this new book, Imagine the God of Heaven, and they're from every spiritual Background, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, agnostic, Hindu. They are testifying to the God of.
- [23:42]
Jim Daly
The Bible because they see the same or similar.
- [23:44]
John Burke
And I'm showing it.
- [23:45]
Pam Farrell
I mean, he's the creator of God.
- [23:46]
John Burke
I'm showing it. He's the only God, but he's always been the God of all nations.
- [23:51]
Jim Daly
Yeah. John, in that respect, this feeling, you know, so many people that don't believe in Jesus have sometimes really, you know, a bad perception or perspective about the church. And I was treated bad by Christians once. Speak specifically to them, that God loves them. God loves you and cares about you. And we know that as Christians, sometimes we don't demonstrate it to those non believers attitudinally, but just touch on that aspect of it. As you've talked to these people, the love of God is something we cannot comprehend.
- [24:28]
John Burke
Yeah. And I mean Pam could tell you firsthand, I'm sure, but what they commonly say is just what she said. There aren't enough adjectives. There just aren't. I've had people tell me, imagine standing in the ocean and the best human love is like waves gently lapping against your knees. And then here comes God's love and it's a tsunami that just washes away all fear, all concern, all worry. And another thing, that many near death.
- [25:00]
Pam Farrell
Experience, it gives you all peace.
- [25:01]
Jim Daly
Yeah.
- [25:02]
John Burke
And a peace that's not even like our peace.
- [25:05]
Pam Farrell
It's beyond comprehension.
- [25:07]
John Burke
One of the things that I was kind of shocked of how many near death experiencers told me is that in Jesus presence they said, you know, I know it wasn't true, but I felt like I was the only, like his only child, like the only one he loved.
- [25:23]
Jim Daly
I love it. I think you're getting the feeling here and the intellectual observation of what these people have gone through and I want to encourage you to get in touch with us. I mean, we are here for you. We want to express that light, that life that you will have in Jesus if you're there and you know the Lord. But you're not sure about this life after man. Get a copy and a bundle of these two great books and we'll make it easy. Just make a gift of any amount. We'll send them to you. If you can't afford it, get in touch with us, we'll trust others, we'll cover the cost of that because this is so important to know the Lord in this life. So you have everlasting life, you have.
- [26:02]
Pam Farrell
The hope of heaven. And I think that John, being on the bestsellers list consistently since you wrote that book, imagine Heaven shares the hunger that we have for the hope of Heaven.
- [26:17]
John Fuller
Find answers and get help from us here at focus on the family. When you call 800, the letter A and the word family, 800-232-6459. You can also go online for so much more in the way of resources. We have the bundle of books that Jim mentioned, Imagine Heaven and Glimpse of God's Glory. And then we also have a free audio collection that you can download. It's called Remembering the Hope of Heaven which contains more conversations with John Burke and Lee Strobel and Randy Alcorn. And you'll also get this episode, of course, that you heard today with some extra bonus content. All of this and much more at our website. The link is in the show notes and as we close out, let me remind you that Focus on the Family is listener supported at this point. We really need your help to continue providing powerful faith building programs like the one you've heard today and offer resources and other tools to strengthen families. If Focus on the Family has helped you in any way, please consider a generous donation today and you can make that financial contribution online or over the phone. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive.
- [27:35]
John Burke
Christ.
- [27:43]
Unknown
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