← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:01]
A
God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from FOCUS on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit truthrising.com today. That's truthrising.com.
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B
So many times family told me to get out. People were scared that something serious would happen to me. But I loved him. He told me I was the problem and I believed it.
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A
They don't have to hit you for it to be abuse. She can humiliate or blame or curse you out, try to control you.
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C
It's still abuse.
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B
Don't be a silent victim fooled by so called love. Say enough to domestic violence.
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C
Well, those comments reflect horrific tragedy when abuse occurs in the home. But on this edition of FOCUS on THE FAMILY with Jim Daly, we have a message of hope and redemption and it's based on the ever present, never ending love of God. Thank you for joining us. I'm John Fuller.
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A
John, this is one of those topics no one wants to talk about. It's kind of behind the door, right. But we hear from people pretty consistently that are struggling in a situation where they're being physically abused and often in a marital relationship. It's important for people to know what to do, how to properly evaluate the situation they're in, how to discern what's spiritual warfare, what is happening here and process all of that through a Christian context. And you know, there is no place for domestic violence. It's evil. That's the bottom line. And the Lord is talking to us about love and kindness, certainly toward one another, but it doesn't get any closer than your own family where they need to see that love and kindness. So we're going to cover it. Stick with us. And if you know someone that's in this situation, this might be the time to get Karen's book. Certainly get the download of the broadcast and we'll have more of that information in a minute.
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C
Yeah, even connect with one of our counselors. We have so many resources here. We're honored to have Karen in this studio. She's an author, a speaker, a pastoral trauma coach and an advocate for women who have experienced abuse. And her ministry is called Another One Free. Now today, the basis of our conversation is a book that Karen wrote. It's called Hope for Healing from Domestic Reaching for God's Promise of Real Freedom. And as Jim noted, we have that here. Give us a Call. We'll tell you more. 800 the letter A in the word family or you can find it on our website. And the link is in the show notes.
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A
Karen, welcome to focus on the family. You know, it's good to have you here. It is a difficult topic and that's part of the, I guess, the cautiousness of it. People don't quite know if they're in it. Some obviously do. But you were married to a man that you called Guy. You're not using his real name, obviously for like 30 years. That's a long time. Tell us about how you met and the over the top affection, which is kind of the way some of these abusers will work. What was a courtship like with Guy?
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B
Well, with most abusers, the guy that you meet is the charming, sweet, funny guy. He doesn't come off abusive. And he was over the top. He was at the end of his tour in the Marine Corps, a friend introduced us and we dated because I had nothing better to do for the summer. So we dated, but it was over the top.
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A
And you said like, he love bombed you.
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B
What is that? Yes, but I didn't know that's what it was.
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A
That's a term that people use.
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B
We use that now. It's where you're kind and you're sweet and you're funny. And he was the boy next door. Everybody loved him.
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A
Let me ask you, how long after your wedding did Guy kind of change that this romantic, great listener, good person, all of a sudden, whoa, who is this?
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B
Well, I thought it was slow. However, once I left and came and was with my family again, my brother let me know one time, hey, we saw him change immediately. But when you're in it, you don't see it. You don't know that's what's happening. Because on my end, it was slow and there was no physical violence. Physical violence wasn't his go to. It was verbal and emotional and psychological. He only used physical violence when it served a purpose in which was not that often.
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A
Yeah, the shame and guilt factor that comes with all of this, you process it as, what am I doing wrong? As opposed to what is he doing wrong? How did you. I guess, what did that feel like in the early years? And then how did that get arrested? Meaning how did you get a handle, a better objective sense of what's really happening here?
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B
Well, you don't, because it is. They make you responsible. Like, it wasn't that I took it on and went, oh, this is all my fault. But over time, he kept putting things back on me and would tell me it was my fault and I started to believe it. When I don't know, there's not a time that I can point to to say, oh, this is the day. But most women and the message that we get, often as women try harder, do more, forgive more, turn the other cheek.
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A
Well, I'm not enough.
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B
Yes.
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A
In whatever way.
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B
And they make you feel like you're not enough, like it's constantly of a destroying of your identity. They pick out your most vulnerable places and exploit them.
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A
Let me ask you this. Explain how abusers can actually trigger compassion in their victims and kind of keep them on that hook.
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B
They one of the almost a requirement of every abuser. And I use that word versus narcissistic. I use abuser because that's what they are. But they love women with empathy. Because you are going to think, oh, I want back the man that I married. What they don't know that the man that they married never existed. What they did is he took off his mask. But you believe you want back that man. And so you think, as a Christian, that if I pray more and if I can do more, that he will come back. And that empathy kicks in because we want to help people that are broken, you know, or not doing well or it's so hard to describe how they do it because it's deception. And deception is like having a film over your glasses. You can't really see clearly.
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C
And, Karen, along those lines, did you ever get to a point of saying, we have a problem, let's get some help?
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B
Yeah, I did. And we would end up in counseling together. And then he would tell them about my horrible childhood. And my parents were divorced and his parents were still together. And so it got turned around that I was the problem. If you fix her, then we'll be fine. And I fell right in with it. Because how are you going to sit next to the person who is abusing you and say, oh, by the way, he's abusing me. These are the kinds of things that he does. You don't do that in front of somebody. Why marriage counseling is dangerous in an abusive dynamic.
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A
And let me just frame that, Karen, because what you're saying is that you have to be mindful about traditional counseling and you may need in an abusive situation to have individual counseling or specialized counseling separately with a domestic abuse specialist. And you can get a hold of us here at Focus on the Family. We have a great extended team of referral counselors that can provide that kind of care. And, you know, A common question. It feels so insensitive to even say it this way, but people think it. Why do victims stay in those relationships?
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B
Oh, yeah, yeah, I heard that often. I would never. I'm really strong. I would never. And I said, that's what we all said. That's what we all said. And I know this question is very insensitive. It's a horrible question to ask. Why did you stay? However, it's an opportunity that oftentimes in Christianity, we don't know we can go because we hear God hates divorce, that marriage is the ultimate goal, so we can't violate that. So I honestly didn't know I could.
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A
Go if I can. Let's dig into that a little bit, because again, you differentiated between different abuses, like physical abuse, and then you have emotional abuse, verbal abuse, those kinds of things. But certainly in the context of physical abuse, I mean, you've got to get yourself to a place of safety, especially if there's children involved as well. And that's something here at Focus. We want you to know that that's plan A. You've got to get to a place of safety. But in that verbal abuse context, where you start laying on the importance of enduring it, because you're a Christian, and this is the spouse I married. And so this is what I get. And Lord, teach me what you want to. You hear the way I'm going here. How's a healthy Christian of this to get to a better place if you do have that abusive spouse?
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B
Well, it's. The majority of marriages are not physically abusive. I talk to women every day. He never hits me that they'll lead with that. He's never hit me, but he does this. He's verbally abusive. It's violence with your words. It's just our words bring life and death.
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That's what the scripture says.
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And when someone never physically harms you, but constantly controls you, whether you sleep in their bed, whether you get to eat dinner or whether you get to drive their car or isolate you or all of these little things, they go silent. They don't talk to you for days. You. You don't understand what's happening. And so you don't know that it's even abusive until you say it out loud to somebody and they're like, that's not normal in a marriage.
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A
So it's almost like a fog.
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B
Oh, it is.
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I mean. And you're trying to discern, is this true? Is that true?
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C
And, Karen, as you're speaking, I'm just thinking that there's Kind of a scale. And the challenge probably is figuring out when does it become abusive. How do you know?
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Like a scale of 1 to 10 or something?
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C
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if he crosses this boundary, it's abuse. Or if she does that, that's abuse.
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B
There's no scale. If we believe just because someone can look good, like you meet somebody and they're nice and they're charming and seem like a happy family, because we look like the happy family. But nobody knows what goes on behind closed doors. And so when she comes out and says something, it's hard for people to imagine this person that they know could ever be that way because they've never seen it.
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C
Yeah, but it's been normal for the victim.
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B
Right, but it's normal. And honestly, it happens once if it's a repeat, and usually it is. Now, there are times Tom and I have been married. Well, coming up on 15 years. We've had the last year and a half, two years have been hard in our marriage. We're doing fine.
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A
That's your second husband.
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B
Second husband, second husband. And we've had some really hard and challenging times, but we've come through it together. We've had to work through it. There's a difference when someone a marriage is hard and difficult because he's controlling. It determines what you wear and when you wear it and controls all the finances and would rather have you be at home, which is not a bad thing. I mean, it's what we want. We want to raise our kids and we want to be at home with them. But for some, that's a way of isolation because nobody. You're not going to interact with people that you could share what's going on in your marriage.
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A
Yeah. Very different setting. I mean, I'm thinking of that manipulation when you talk about great constructs in marriage when you have children. Yeah. It's wonderful for a parent to be there to be with the kids. Somebody has to do the breadwinning. And those kinds of traditional things in a healthy, loving home are terrific. And in fact, all the social science supports that. I mean, the healthiest children generally come from those kind of loving, intact homes. And that's a good thing. But when that person, that spouse, is manipulative, is domineering, all the kind of underbelly of unhealthiness, that's when you have to kind of understand what's happening. Thirty years in, there's a turning point. You're going through a Christian magazine. I think if I the story correctly, and an article caught your attention. What Was that wake up call?
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B
Well, my wake up call actually happened. That was September when I read the article. My wake up call came in June in 2004. And I came home all excited because I just got. I had had a promotion after three months and now I got a raise and a bonus. So I was ecstatic. And he couldn't be bothered. He wasn't happy for me, wouldn't talk to me, would not acknowledge my existence, that I this. And in that moment I was done. And I talk about, you know, we always had the commercial with the easy button and for women in domestic abuse. And I use the word abuse versus violence because it's not all physical is you have a done button. The day you just realize you're just done. But I didn't know what to do. And then when that magazine came, it's the first time anybody talked about abuse in a Christian women's magazine. And as I read that and I'm sitting across the room from him and I'm realizing I can't deny this anymore. I just can't deny it. And it was hard to admit. It was less hard to admit that he was abuser. It was more difficult to admit I was being abused.
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A
Why? What was that communicating to you?
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B
That I was weak. And that which was not true because a weak person would have never survived what I survived. I was stronger than I knew. However, I did not know how to leave. And it wasn't until later in the year when my mom came for a visit that she was then 72 and rescued me. And we left. I left the day after Christmas.
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A
Take us through that day. I mean, again, you have to build up the courage to say I'm seeing this correctly. I can only imagine the self talk and all that. You know, this. I am right, he is wrong. What was the escape plan and how was it executed and what happened?
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B
Well, the day after Christmas happened to be a Sunday, so we were going to church. We'd already been talking about going to church. So he expected the car to start and all this. And so that was our plan.
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C
That was just you and your mother?
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B
Just me and my mom. And the next morning, got up, loaded everything in the car. We didn't drive away because the battery was dead. So we had to.
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So you went out to the car, started it on your escape. And it didn't.
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It didn't start. So I, I was ready to yank out the. I mean, I was yanking out the suitcase and I was losing my mind. And his windows right here. So right up into where I could not make too much noise in my.
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So you were full of fear.
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Oh, I was so afraid. I knew what he was capable of. I mean, he'd been telling me for years, even though again, physical violence wasn't his go to, it was used when needed. But I also knew what he was capable of. And so if you go back to that question, why did she stay or why didn't you go get help? He was in law enforcement.
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Oh, that's okay.
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And so when he's in law enforcement, all your friends are in law enforcement. You know, who are you going to go to? And so that was also a challenge. And so at this point, we left the house and called mom, called the tow truck driver and I just walked up to his truck and said, I'm running away from home and you cannot wake him up.
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A
Wow.
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She went back to the house with him to bring the car over because I couldn't go back there.
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So he jump started your car and you got out of.
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He jumped and we drove away.
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Yeah. Did he try to reach you? Did he try to connect with you and figure out, okay, what's happening?
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Yes, he got right with Jesus again and had our pastor call and wanted to know when I was coming back. I'd been out for maybe a few weeks and when was I coming back to support him. And the tremor of my voice is, I'm never coming back. And he didn't know what to say to that.
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But you said that.
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I said that I am never going back. And his only response was, I hope you find somebody. And I now I was angry because I'm like, find somebody. I don't want anybody. I mean, the only men I could be around at this point was my brother and my brother in law. I could not be around men. I didn't trust him. I didn't like him. I wanted nothing to do with diving into another relationship at all.
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What was he like growing up? Did you ever get stories from him? I mean, I'm trying to think what developed this dark character within this person who obviously knew the words going to church but wasn't applying it to his life.
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He didn't. He wasn't. Like religious abusers, quite frankly, are the worst. He really wasn't.
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Why do you say that? That's a big statement.
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Religious. Because they use God as a weapon. You just need to submit more. You need to forgive me. You're required to forgive me. What a better hunting ground than the church for defying women. That would.
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Yeah, that's.
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And don't believe in divorce.
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A
Well, that's the reason to even do the program here, because people need to think through what situation they're in. The other side of this can be someone who's going through this too quickly. Like you said earlier with your second husband, Tom, there are just marital difficulties you fight through and you fight for each other, et cetera. So you've got to really take a healthy assessment of what we're dealing with here and make sure that you are accurate, that you are being abused. And that's where that, if I could say, double clutching probably occurs. Right. Am I really in that spot?
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B
Yeah. But even through all the hard. Tom didn't try to destroy me.
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Correct.
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He didn't tear me down, he didn't try to control me. And he doesn't make fun of me or pull at my vulnerabilities.
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Consistently. All the time.
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Consistently. He did not do that. He loves people. He's an honest man. He's full of integrity.
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And so there's margin there for not being perfect.
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B
There's margin there, absolutely. Because he's not perfect. Neither am I, thank goodness. But there's a difference that when you go through difficult times that you don't attack one another. Have we had moments like that? Yeah. Then we come back and he's the first to apologize. When we got married, Tom is the one. He served me long before I could serve him. He would remind me, I'm not your ex husband. Oh, I'm sure there'd be reflexes, the.
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Words said to you. What are you saying to me? Yes, you sound just like my former husband.
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B
But it was. There is a difference when you're going through hard things versus a hard or difficult marriage where he is consistently being abusive. That happens often. The moment they say I do and they go into the hotel room, it's like a different guy shows up.
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A
Right. And so in that context, I mean, all this has happened. Again, the book is important to read and it gives you more of an indicator of is this me? But in that context, you got across that what I would describe maybe as the finish line of all this, to forgive that person. You know, when you look at all the circumstances in life, I'm thinking these families that experience a murder, you know, however it happens. And then for Christian families that experience that, how do they find forgiveness for the perpetrator that took the life of one of their loved ones? I mean, I have not had that experience. My heart goes out to that person. I'm not sure how I would handle that, to be honest. I would Hope I'd handle it well. But this is also a very difficult thing, to Forgive someone of 30 years of abuse. How did you get there? Or did you?
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B
There's a couple different answers to that. Number one, when I first came out, because I was being a good Christian girl, I thought I was supposed to forgive, and I did. And I realized later I didn't.
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Explain that. So we understand our own unforgiveness.
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B
What I've learned about forgiveness is that I love the way Matthew says it. I can't remember the exact place, but he's talking about forgiveness. And it says, if you refuse to forgive from your heart. And all of a sudden I went on a pause because we are not refusing to forgive. But you can't forgive from your heart until you deal what's in your heart. To forgive somebody without dealing with the pain, acknowledging the pain, sitting in the pain and getting some healing, Forgiveness becomes a byproduct of your healing. And so when I realized that forgiveness, I've watched it come naturally with women. But to just forgive, it's not. Some people like to say it's an act of the will. Well, it is. If Tom and I have an off moment, we forgive each other. We don't say the words. We just do it without even thinking. But when you have this kind of trauma, you have to deal with what happened to. You have to deal with the pain and the trauma.
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A
In that context, how do you help other women now?
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B
I listen. I listen and I believe them. And so often women aren't believed. It becomes, well, he said, she said, and I believe them. And women know when they're sitting and talking and sharing their story, they've often found a video that I've done of another recording, and they're like, I went through this. And the healing part of it, unless you're damaged physically, you know that there is physical impairment from being in a physically violent marriage. The physical part gets over quickly. That heals as your body heals. What doesn't heal is that's harder to heal, let me put it that way, is the emotional and the verbal and the psychological. And our body tells the story that. And it carries the weight of the pain that we've been through. And women, often, we end up with autoimmune diseases, all kinds of things. Thyroid problems, so many physical issues that come. So we say there's no physical abuse, but yet there's a physical impact to.
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Our bodies right at the end here. Tom was your knight in shining armor. Did he redeem all of the male Gender for you. He did.
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I actually had somebody ask me, how do you know when you're in love? And I said, you know, I really didn't know, but I can tell you now, I did not know what love was until I met Tom Gardner.
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A
Wow. That says it all.
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And so because that's. He showed me love and it actually. And even though I would tell you I love God over my healing, my love for God has deepened in a way, and I see him in a way that I never saw him before. And so Tom is the one that really showed this is what love really looks like.
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A
Karen, this has been so powerful. I just want to say thank you. I'm sorry you went through those things that you went through. But praise God that you understood intellectually, emotionally what you were going through, and you made changes. And it sounds like the Lord has blessed you with Tom, that that has now been a very good thing in your life to feel loved for the first time. And that's a blessing. So that is good. If you're in that spot where you're not sure or you're very sure that you're in an abusive situation, call us here at Focus on the Family. We have caring Christian counselors who can talk with you, help you to sort out if you're seeing things correctly, provide other information and other resources, including additional counseling in your area. So get in touch with us and let us be the sounding board for you.
- [26:24]
C
Yeah. And as we mentioned earlier, traditional marriage therapy isn't recommended if you're in an abusive relationship. It can sometimes not be safe. So what you need is specialized help. And our counseling team can point you in the right direction for that. We're available when you call 800, the letter A and the word family. That's 800-232. And when you get in touch, be sure to ask about Karen's book, Hope for Healing From Domestic Abuse. It's a really important resource, perhaps for you or a friend or likely for your church. We'll send a copy when you make a gift of any amount to the ministry, donate today and know that we value your financial partnership. Every little bit helps you. It all adds up. So please donate today and you'll find the link to do so in the show notes. Well, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [27:38]
A
God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit truthrising.com today. That's truthrising.com.