← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
Guiding Your Preteen Daughter to Find Her Identity in Christ
00:27:38
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- [00:01]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Your marriage can be healed. A Hope Restored Marriage Intensive from Focus on the Family can transform you and your spouse's relationship in just a few days. We'll go to this thing, but this is it. If this doesn't work, we're done. What we have now, it's way more than we ever had before and that I ever even dreamed of in the marriage. Discover more@hoperestored.com that's hoperestored.com the thing I've learned too is when I'm reacting to my children out of fear, that's my issue, not theirs. You know what I mean? Like, if my daughter comes home and she gets a C on a test and I freak out, it's probably because I believe that she needs to have a seat with the intelligent people. And that's an idol.
- [00:54]
John Fuller
That's Dr. Heather Holloman. And she joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Now, if you're parenting a middle schooler or you remember what it felt like to be in middle school and wonder, where do I belong? This is a conversation for you. I'm John Fuller.
- [01:10]
Jim Daly
Yeah. That's the biggest no brainer in the world. Middle school can be challenging. I mean, middle school, were you terrified?
- [01:18]
John Fuller
Yes, I was terrified. I was overwhelmed.
- [01:21]
Jim Daly
I mean, you don't know much. You're putting things on backward that you'd never put on before. You know, it's pe. It's all that stuff you gotta go to multiple classes and teachers and that's, you know, that's not the social context of what kids are facing today with smartphones and, you know, being acceptable. All the stuff that really comes out in such a big way in middle school. I'm glad we only do it once.
- [01:48]
John Fuller
That's kind of a gift, isn't it?
- [01:50]
Jim Daly
But today we do want to talk to you about how to help your middle schooler, especially those girls who just are so vulnerable, vulnerable to those outside forces. And it's not their fault. It's part of growth and maturity. You gotta learn who you are. And so often you learn that from your environment. And then you have to learn who you are inside, not what people are saying to you or taunting you with or teasing you. And we're gonna have a good discussion today. Yeah.
- [02:18]
John Fuller
For Christian parents, that identity in Christ for our child is crucial. And Dr. Heather Holloman is really positioned well to help us think this through. She's an associate teach professor at Penn State and a speaker and an author. And she's written a number of books. She's A very popular guest here at the ministry. We're talking today about a series of books for middle school girls. It's the Aleda Brown series. And you can learn more about Heather and all the things she does and her other books and this specific series for middle school girls at our website. Just stop by the show notes for the links.
- [02:56]
Jim Daly
Heather, welcome back to focus. So good to have you.
- [02:58]
Dr. Heather Holloman
I'm so excited to be here. This is going to be a great conversation.
- [03:01]
Jim Daly
Okay, here is the loaded question right out of the gate. You're a college professor. I've talked to many Christian college professors and they'll say they'll give some story of, you know, a young man or young woman that is a little out of control in the classroom in some way. And I'll say, wow, what? So you're seeing the product of a Christian home in maybe not so healthy a context sometimes. And they just. Yeah. And it's interesting for us as parents, you know, when your children go off to college. Yeah. Those college professors are seeing the product of everybody's hard work. Right?
- [03:38]
Dr. Heather Holloman
That's right. That's right.
- [03:39]
Jim Daly
And you know, I think the goal even here at Focus is to help parents to do the best job they can do. So when that child shows up in your classroom.
- [03:47]
Dr. Heather Holloman
That's right.
- [03:48]
Jim Daly
They're, you know, not just a students. They're good academically, but they're people of good character.
- [03:54]
Dr. Heather Holloman
They're people of good character. Yes.
- [03:56]
Jim Daly
Speak to that moment when you're kind of assessing your classroom in the fall, the first week or two. Do you see that distinction?
- [04:02]
Dr. Heather Holloman
I do. And sometimes I can tell parents who've raised their children to be curious, to be great conversationalists, to be polite and to be grateful. It is a huge difference. Those students really shine. They tend to be really successful students who write thank you notes, students who will ask me questions rooted in curiosity. I love those. And I can tell, I'll say, hey, when you grew up or did your parents teach you how to have a really good conversation and make a warm connection? So I love those.
- [04:32]
Jim Daly
Here's a scary thought. What if the professors the first semester gave the parents a grade on their students? Oh, wow, Think of that and your ability to do that. But, you know, in a serious way, those daughters that show up that really aren't that grounded in a strong faith, you know, maybe we've trusted the church will do that through Sunday school or whatever, whatever reason. What kinds of things do they display and what kind of things are they facing because of that lack of better grounding? In their faith.
- [05:08]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Well, at least at Penn State. One of the things I see and things that I actually research are you see people that have a lack of purpose, and they also have profound loneliness and anxiety because they don't know where their footing is. They don't have that identity. They're not sure how to build community. I see those things a lot of.
- [05:28]
Jim Daly
So with the book series you've done, Alida Brown.
- [05:30]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Yes.
- [05:31]
Jim Daly
You know, this is, I'm sure, an amalgamation of real, true life experience and other things. But what inspired you to create that character? And then how does it reflect the real struggles that young girls face today?
- [05:46]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Well, in 2015, I wrote the book Seated with Living Freely in a Culture of Comparison. And this was a book that was a profound moment for me, rooted in Ephesians 2. It changed my life forever. And so I went all around helping women get free from jealousy and comparison because they knew they were already seated at the best table with Jesus from Ephesians.
- [06:06]
Jim Daly
And people are saying, how did you do that?
- [06:08]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Well, what happened was, I'm telling women, look, your fight for a seat at the table probably began in seventh grade. And women would burst into tears and they'd say, I remember the exact moment when I didn't have a seat at the popular table. Men, too. And so I was teaching for about 10 years on this idea of having your seat at the table, because Ephesians 2. 6 says, and God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Christ in the heavenly realms. And I was teaching women this. And so many people said, if I had just known this when I was 13 years old that I'm already seated at the best table with Jesus, it would have healed that wound of rejection from the middle school lunch table. So my acquisitions editor, Judy Dunnigan, said, we really need to write Seated with Christian for a middle grade audience. And it was actually my youngest daughter said, mom, you can't write a Bible study. Don't make it nonfiction. No little girl is gonna carry a book around that says, I'm excluded. I'm jealous.
- [07:06]
Jim Daly
Good coaching.
- [07:07]
Dr. Heather Holloman
My daughter said, what if you fictionalized it? So that's where this seat Saved began. And it's about a little girl who starts seventh grade and realizes she doesn't have a seat at the popular table. It's based on my own experience, my daughter's experience. It's sort of a quintessential experience all over the world. When you're 13, you remember the day you didn't have a seat with the popular girls.
- [07:30]
Jim Daly
Let me ask you before we go deeper into the book series, why is it so universal? Is it a point of growth? Is it so common that you know, when you're 13, 14, it's just awkward?
- [07:43]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Yes.
- [07:43]
Jim Daly
Your life is awkward. Your body is awkward. You don't know who you are really yet.
- [07:48]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Yes. It has to do with two factors, just in terms of developmental psychology. You know, you're turning 13, you go through. It's this adolescence period. But it is also the idea coming from elementary school. You eat lunch with your class. It's not quite as stressful finding where you belong. It's that phenomenon of changing classes. You're going into the lunchroom, you don't know where to sit. But even homeschool children, children who don't have a lunchroom experience, know, okay, there's a popular group and I'm not invited. It's just. It has to do with where they are in that stage of development, right around 13. Do you remember being in seventh grade?
- [08:24]
Jim Daly
Yeah, those. I don't want to go to those stories. Those are painful.
- [08:27]
Dr. Heather Holloman
The wound is deep. It is. You can ask people. Usually everyone has a story of a table they weren't invited to.
- [08:32]
Jim Daly
And I think in the guy context, today we're talking with you about girls. But the guy context is all built around physical ability. You know, I remember standing in a seventh grade PE Class and this guy just nailed me. I was not looking for this. And he was talking about how boys become men and how they fill out. And he was a rather hefty guy, swimmer, and he clobbered me in the sternum while I was looking away, standing in a line. I mean, he cracked my sternum. And then he turned to the guy next to him and said, see, he's not filled out like us yet.
- [09:04]
Dr. Heather Holloman
No, you're right. And actually, young boys do read the seat saved. I get letters from them.
- [09:08]
Jim Daly
Is that right?
- [09:09]
Dr. Heather Holloman
They do. There is a primary female character, but there are boys that are going through their own struggles in the book. But they tell me, the young boy readers say it's all about how tall you are, physical strength, and if they make the team. Because seventh grade is usually when you start the tryouts, or at least in where we are in State College, that's where you're gonna make the soccer team, the football team, the volleyball team. And that sense of rejection, they carry it with them their whole life.
- [09:37]
Jim Daly
It's so true. The deeper stuff, though, is, you know, understanding how to communicate, especially as a parent. How do we build our girls up? What are the words that we need to say yes, that give them a sense of identity and purpose and that it's real to them. You know, so often you can discount it as a seventh grader, dad has to say that or mom has to say that, right?
- [10:00]
Dr. Heather Holloman
That's right.
- [10:00]
Jim Daly
I'm just thinking of those things. But sometimes as parents, we don't have a clear focus on what is it I need to do to strengthen my daughter at this time of awkwardness, like building her confidence and building her resilience in the face of rejection, which most seventh, eighth graders are going to face. So how do you instruct a parent to be mindful of those things and then communicate them effectively?
- [10:29]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Well, one of the most powerful things you can do with think about 8 to 12 year old girls, 13 year olds, is bring them to God's word. Ephesians 2 is the most powerful passage of scripture for a young person to understand. And my youngest daughter and my oldest daughter, they, when they were 12, I taught them, here's what Ephesians 2 says about you and Ephesians 2. I think if you're going to memorize any chapter of the entire Bible, if it's not Romans 8, it should be Ephesians 2. And when my daughter experienced her own lunchroom rejection, I just read that passage to her. I said, look, it talks about how much God loves you, that he seated you with Christ in the heavenly realms. And I said, it's really hard to imagine. Paul is most likely in a Roman prison. And he tells us again in Colossians, like, fix your mind there. You're seated at the greatest table with the greatest king. I used King Arthur in the Knights of the Round Table with her. I said, look, you just got a picture. I don't know what we're supposed to picture, but that's what Paul says to do. And it's a past tense verb. You know, I'm a grammar expert. I was obsessed with this idea. So I, I said, when you walk into the lunchroom, I want you to be able to say, I'm already seated at the best table with Jesus. He chose me for his table. And then you can kind of look around and invite people who maybe don't have a seat to come to the table. So that really mattered. Just using little phrases like, you're already seated at the greatest table with the greatest king. It was so powerful for my, one of my daughters that she even wore a necklace for years, even in her high school graduation picture that said seated on it as her core identity.
- [12:06]
Jim Daly
Wow.
- [12:07]
Dr. Heather Holloman
That she is seated and that matters because you go through rejection all your life, high school, college, it doesn't end. So the other thing you can do as a parent is use what we call family mottos, even things that rhyme. Our favorite family motto is every rejection is God's protection. It's deeply theological. You have to believe in God's sovereignty, his goodness. So bring them to Ephesians 2. In my book, I have an older mentor that speaks into that. And that is helpful because sometimes parents, they need another community member, maybe an older person in the church. I really believe in the power of mentorship. It can't just be the parents always speaking into the lives of teenagers. So if you're someone that's older, take a younger person out to coffee and you can be the one that introduces them as well as the parents.
- [12:55]
Jim Daly
That's clever.
- [12:56]
John Fuller
Yeah. Dr. Heather Holloman is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And we're talking about this really cool series of books for middle school girls ages maybe 10 to 16. Heather.
- [13:09]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Well, it's designed for 8 to 12 year olds, but a lot of older girls love it. Younger girls read it. So. Yeah.
- [13:14]
John Fuller
So get a copy of the whole series, the Alida Brown series from us here at Focus on the Family. Go through with your daughter, help her understand some of these concepts and just drive home her identity in Christ. Get the book from us here at the ministry. When you click the link in the show notes or call 800-the- Letter A and the word family.
- [13:34]
Jim Daly
Heather, again, I didn't raise girls. I have two boys. So it's always fascinating to me to talk to parents like you two.
- [13:42]
Dr. Heather Holloman
That's right. Yeah.
- [13:43]
Jim Daly
That had girls. But in that context, I probably have some stereotyping in my head. I mean, I just haven't had the experience. But I would think young girls, that popularity thing, it's huge acceptance thing. I think I'm pretty good at coaching a son in that direction. But even with what you're saying, one of your daughters really getting it, having a seat at the table for the parent that maybe has done something like that, but that daughter has not grabbed onto that, you know, and they're still struggling with the popularity problem being accepted. It's such a longing in the heart of that girl. How do you begin to try different things to make sure that they're not going to find a different solution for that longing in their heart?
- [14:34]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Well, one thing I wanted to address in the book is what happens when you do get a seat at the popular table. And what my character learns is it's not what she thought it was. She'd actually rather be with the nature club. You know, she'd rather be with the people that are out looking at mushrooms in the Pennsylvania forest or something. So it's about understanding how God made you. And there's kind of like a quirkiness to her. And she knows she's not popular, but she ends up finding great friends. And she doesn't enjoy what the popular girls are doing. And so there's that moment where you really get to talk to your daughter. Okay, what would it mean for you to be with the popular girls? What do you think it's gonna provide for you? And then in the third book of the series, the character actually does become popular. And so she has to deal with how stressful it is, how it's not what she thought.
- [15:21]
John Fuller
I appreciate that. And Heather, we had three girls after two boys. Oh, gosh.
- [15:26]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Okay.
- [15:27]
John Fuller
So when the girls came, I was a little blindsided. Cause some of the emotions they experienced and they came out oftentimes in behaviors that I read as behavioral and performance, not emotional at their roots. So give us some practical tips how to deal with the outburst or the, you know, the huffy, walk away and slam the door. This applies.
- [15:48]
Jim Daly
Please give us some of that.
- [15:49]
John Fuller
This applies to both boys and girls, but girls particularly. How do we show up in those moments? And what's a good way to demonstrate that unconditional love that God has for them that I desperately want to give them? But. Oh, my goodness.
- [16:01]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Well, the best advice I ever received was to stay really calm. You guys have heard it. That be the non anxious presence. And Ash and I, my husband Ashley, we've learned to just ask really good questions and stay curious and not be impacted by someone's big emotions. In fact, some of them, I sort of appreciate the passion and the intensity of that age group and just to ask good questions, like, tell me what your biggest stressor is this week. Like, tell me what's real. But you have to phrase the question in a way that shows that you're really curious, you're ready to listen. That's why Ash and I care so much about helping people have better conversations in their family. So the other thing I recommend, and I know you may have wanted to talk about this, is helping young girls develop a journaling practice.
- [16:46]
Jim Daly
That's a good idea.
- [16:47]
Dr. Heather Holloman
I can't wait to tell you all I've learned about helping young people. It's not a diary. It's sort of a journaling practice that helps develop their spiritual life. And it's the best mental health practice for anxiety and big emotions.
- [17:00]
Jim Daly
We're here. Why don't we just cover it up?
- [17:01]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Do you wanna do.
- [17:03]
Jim Daly
Because I actually, I shot a picture of the prep that outlined that. Cause I wanted to share it with my boys.
- [17:09]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Oh, it's been life changing for me. It's a journal practice that I've been doing for the last 40 years. It's rooted actually in social science research and mental health practices. You teach young people to begin with five things they're thankful for. They can do this in five minutes. Five things they're thankful for. The gratitude research is undisputable now about how good it is for your brain. And then you have them write down five things they're worried about, five things they want the Lord to help them with. And what you're doing is helping them connect with the presence of God, who can daily bear their burdens, who's actively involved in caring for them and cares about their wellbeing. But that way they get it in the journal. Here are five things I'm stressed about. So for me it was my math test or I'm nervous about this boy, whatever it is. And then you write down five people that you're praying for that you want to bless or maybe needs a blessing. So for a 12 year old girl to take her eyes off herself and think about other people. So good is profound. And then the journal I designed, it's called the Sit and Savor journal that go. That pairs with the second book. It's really about how to then record some things you're learning. So it's not like you're writing long sentences. You're just taking a moment to begin a reflective practice. And I really believe in the power of reflective journaling. It's again, it's not a diary. Nobody's writing long entries, but you're just kind of writing down things that you need. And what I love is I think the greatest way to grow a child's faith. What I actually learned from Focus on the Family was to keep a prayer journal. To see divine activity in your life.
- [18:43]
Jim Daly
God heard and you know, you said something I wanted to follow up with you on. That's anxiety.
- [18:49]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Yes.
- [18:49]
Jim Daly
You know, cdc, center for Disease Control, there's so much research right now and you're in it in the college setting. I mean CDC, the last report I saw 15 to 25 year olds, 50% of that group. And I did the Math, it's like 7 million children in that age group who are depressed or have anxiety or suicidal thoughts. From your perspective, seeing and being so close to that age group, what is happening to our kids?
- [19:23]
Dr. Heather Holloman
I mean, I'm obviously not an expert in the, in the psychology world, but I think it has a lot to do with the immediacy of the phone, the nonstop information. It's this overstimulation that they can't do anything about. They know everything bad going on, but they can't do anything about it. So it's just this rumination of things. I also think the loneliness epidemic helps create that anxious sense of I don't know how to talk to people, I don't know how to be bonded to people. I also think we've stopped letting kids be out in nature. There's a lot of factors, but I would say the best intervention for that, I believe, is things like the journal, things like getting, you know, trying to get your kids out in nature. Those are things that calm the nervous system down.
- [20:05]
Jim Daly
Yeah. It's not complicated.
- [20:08]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Right.
- [20:08]
Jim Daly
And maybe talking about reducing, especially when that child is in junior high, kind of reducing facetime and with screens and such.
- [20:19]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Right.
- [20:19]
Jim Daly
Try to control that so their appetite's not out of control.
- [20:23]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Right. That's why I love that. Writing middle grade books, getting kids reading again. It's so calming and joyful. Just that they can read and then talk to you about what they're reading. It's wonderful.
- [20:32]
Jim Daly
It's so true.
- [20:33]
Dr. Heather Holloman
The thing I've learned too is when I'm reacting to my children out of fear, that's my issue, not theirs. You know what I mean? Like, if my daughter comes home and she gets a C on a test and I freak out, it's probably because I believe that she needs to have a seat with the intelligent people. And that's an idol. So. One thing I love about the whole seated with Christ idea is even as I got older, I fought for a seat at the table. I thought I have to be attractive. I have to be. I call it the three A's. Achievement, affluence and appearance. If I am attractive, wealthy, and high achieving, I will have a seat at the table. So I'm able to tell my girls, this is my issue. You are living the life God wants you to live. You do not have to achieve to have a seat at the table that set our family free.
- [21:25]
Jim Daly
Wow.
- [21:25]
Dr. Heather Holloman
I mean, and I speak, you know, to all different churches and different cultures. And I can usually tell if the community there values achievement or values the pursuit of wealth because that's what they want most for their children rather than this kind of intimacy with Jesus, where you're living out the end of Ephesians 2, which says that he has good works prepared in advance for you to do. It's a stronghold in my life I had to be set free from.
- [21:49]
Jim Daly
Well, I appreciate that, but you think of those rich zip codes and the things that those kids are struggling with. It's because we as parents are missing the core things they need. They're gonna have the nice car, maybe the Beamer to drive to high school. All those things are in and of themselves not evil, but it's the heart that we as parents have to develop. Right at the end here, Heather. I'm thinking of the mom listening and going, wow. Yeah, I haven't done that well. I haven't done this well. How does she recalibrate and, and really get an idea of what are the good things I need to be connected with with my daughter?
- [22:28]
Dr. Heather Holloman
Well, the best thing you can do as a mom is be really honest about your own experience with Ephesians 2. Cause you can pass on to your daughter things that Jesus is teaching you about having a seat at the table. That's the best thing, where you're just sharing your own life. Here's what Jesus is teaching me. That's what her mentor does. And you know, with that age group, it is a lot about jealousy, it is a lot about your appearance. And so just tell your daughter how the Lord has helped you in your own journey and that's the best thing you can do. But a little girl, a 12 year old, is not too young to understand Ephesians 2.
- [23:03]
Jim Daly
Yeah, that's.
- [23:04]
Dr. Heather Holloman
It's a beautiful passage. And ask her, say, what do you think it means? That God raised us up and seated us with Jesus. Do you think that makes a difference in your life when you picture yourself there like Paul did? And the final quote in the book that a lot of readers love comes from the Hayden Planetarium. And it just says this. All seats provide equal viewing of the universe. No matter where you sit, you won't miss any part of the show. So even. And Paul wrote that. You know, Paul wrote Ephesians 2 in prison. So if you're jealous of your rich friends or you're jealous because your best friend is really beautiful and you don't feel attractive, just remember, you're seated at the best table with Jesus. All sitting seats provide equal viewing of the universe. You're not gonna miss anything. And I love the verse from Psalm 34, that those who look to him are radiant. Their faces are never covered with shame. You can tell your daughter she is radiant. She never has to worry about her appearance. I love that verse and that appears in the second and third book of.
- [24:04]
Jim Daly
This series and it's so affirming, which is what a young girl needs so much. Heather, you bring it every time you're with us. I know many moms and dads feel inspired by your mess to help nurture their daughter's identity in Christ. And just let me say thank you for being with us. Also, let me turn to you. Our listener Focus on the Family is here to help you and your family to thrive in Christ. That's our mission. We want to equip you mom and dad as you're raising the future generation. We have a whole library of content for you, articles, programs like this one, video series, you name it. Our parenting team works tirelessly to stay ahead of trends and create the content you need to have as a parent. A great way to encourage your daughter is with a subscription to Brio magazine. It's packed with inspiring faith based articles and practical advice on culturally relevant topics. But we're always sensitive to the parents, so trust it. We also have Heather Holloman's Alida Brown book series which includes three books, this Seat Saved, the Disappearing Seat and the Elite Seat. A fourth one is coming later this year, but we have those three books in a bundle that you can get started on and I can't think of a better way for a mom or dad to help their daughter discover who she is in Christ. Then read these books which will reinforce that. And the best part is then if you read them together, you can discuss the themes of identity and being sent by God and to encourage your daughter to share her faith with her friends. When you give a gift of any amount, we'll send you that bundle as our way of saying thank you for supporting the ministry and doing ministry through Focus on the Family. Let me share this note from Emily who wrote in and told us this. I am a 41 year old, soon to be first time mom who is just beginning to explore my identity in Christ and develop a deeper hunger for God's Word. That is great. My husband and I have been married for two years and we are preparing to welcome our first child. We are eager to learn how to build a strong Christian home as we grow together in faith. Focus on the Family feels like a wonderful place to begin that journey and I am excited to explore the resources your ministry offers.
- [26:26]
John Fuller
That is really wonderful to hear.
- [26:27]
Jim Daly
Well, it's hitting the bullseye. That's what we're trying to do. And Emily, we're happy you discovered Focus on the Family. Just let us know how we can best help you. People can call, you can text, write, do whatever. However you can get in touch with us, go to the website and we have ways to hear from you in that way, too. When you donate to Focus on the Family, you're helping folks like Emily and many, many others strengthening strengthen their marriage and raise their children in positive, healthy ways. But this kind of ministry is only possible because of support from friends like you. You can provide that much needed help when you do your ministry through Focus on the Family. So please donate today.
- [27:08]
John Fuller
Yeah, our number is 800, the letter A and the word family. 800-232-6459. Donate and get your bundle of those Alida Brown books and also learn more about our Brio magazine. And we've got all the details about these and other resources. Resources in the show notes and coming up next time, a conversation with Olympic champion figure skater Scott Hamilton.
- [27:32]
Scott Hamilton
I was sick. I didn't grow. I was the smallest and the weakest. I was this, I was that. I was a loser. I'd fallen all these times. I embarrassed myself. But what I started to figure out was that every single one of those failures was a spectacular learning opportunity.
- [27:49]
John Fuller
Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Dan Daily. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [28:09]
Dave Stone
Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup, but when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally. So I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you get your podcasts.