How Dehumanizing Views Shape Our Culture (Part 2 of 2)

Summary

Focus on the Family with Jim Daly: How Dehumanizing Views Shape Our Culture (Part 2 of 2) - Detailed Summary

Release Date: June 5, 2025

Introduction

In the second part of the two-episode series titled "How Dehumanizing Views Shape Our Culture," hosts Jim Daly and John Fuller continue their in-depth conversation with renowned professor, author, and speaker Nancy Pearcey. Building upon their initial discussion, this episode delves deeper into the ramifications of separating the body from the soul and spirit, and how this philosophical divide is influencing contemporary cultural and social issues.

Devaluation of the Body in Contemporary Culture

Nancy Pearcey opens the discussion by addressing the academic defense of transgenderism, highlighting how secular worldviews often undermine the inherent value of the human body. She states:

"What the body tells us is nothing. It has no meaning at all." (04:25)

This perspective, Pearcey argues, originates from a fragmented understanding of human identity, where the body is seen as separate and less significant compared to the soul or spirit. She contrasts this with the Christian worldview, which views the body as integral to one's identity and purpose.

Impact on LGBT and Gender Issues

The conversation transitions to the practical implications of devaluing the body, particularly concerning the LGBT community. Pearcey emphasizes the importance of maintaining a holistic view of human identity to counteract the dissonance propagated by secular ideologies. She recounts her interaction with a Princeton University professor defending transgenderism, pointing out the denial of the body's inherent value:

"The pro life view is inclusive. As long as you remember the human race you're in, you have dignity, you have the full dignity of persons." (09:34)

She further discusses the societal pressures faced by gender non-conforming children, sharing personal anecdotes about her nieces who were targeted and eventually identified as LGBTQ due to external influences rather than their true selves.

Legal and Philosophical Implications

Pearcey and Fuller explore significant legal decisions that reflect the ongoing battle over human personhood and biological identity:

• Obergefell v. Hodges: Legalized same-sex marriage by decoupling marriage from biological connections.

• Bostock v. Clayton County (2020): Asserted that individual self-identification determines legal gender, effectively sidelining biological sex.

• Pavan v. Smith (2017): Redefined parenthood based on legal recognition rather than biological ties.

Pearcey critiques these decisions for undermining the biological basis of identity, arguing that they set dangerous precedents for defining personhood based on state or personal declarations rather than inherent human characteristics.

Personal Stories and Statistics

To illustrate the real-world impact of these philosophical shifts, Pearcey shares the story of Brandon, a young man with gender dysphoria who ultimately recognized the futility of transitioning:

"A person is not a computer disk that you can erase and start over again." (17:48)

She references studies indicating that 80-90% of children with gender dysphoria outgrow it during puberty, underscoring the potential harm of medical interventions prescribed before adolescent consent. Pearcey also highlights the rise of "detransitioners" and the increasing number of states enacting laws to limit or prohibit medical interventions for minors, aligning with European approaches that have recognized the adverse effects of early transition interventions.

Intersection with Feminism and Women's Rights

An intriguing aspect of the discussion is the alliance forming between conservative Christian women and radical feminists, including those labeled as TERFs (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists). Pearcey explains:

"If you cannot define what a woman is, then you cannot give them legal protection." (20:14)

This collaboration signifies a recognition among some feminists that transgender ideologies may inadvertently undermine the legal and social protections historically afforded to cisgender women. By challenging the erasure of biological sex, these feminists aim to preserve the integrity of women's rights in the face of evolving gender definitions.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up the episode, John Fuller commends Nancy Pearcey for her insightful analysis and reaffirmation of the body’s significance in understanding human identity. Pearcey's arguments reinforce the necessity for Christians to embrace and advocate for a worldview that honors the body as an integral part of being made in God's image, male and female. The hosts encourage listeners to engage with Pearcey's work to better navigate and address the complex cultural challenges related to gender and identity.

Notable Quotes

• "The pro life view is inclusive. As long as you remember the human race you're in, you have dignity, you have the full dignity of persons." – Nancy Pearcey (09:34)

• "A person is not a computer disk that you can erase and start over again." – Nancy Pearcey (17:48)

• "If you cannot define what a woman is, then you cannot give them legal protection." – Nancy Pearcey (20:14)

Final Remarks

Nancy Pearcey's contributions provide a profound exploration of how dehumanizing philosophies impact culture, particularly regarding gender identity and the legal recognition of personhood. Her emphasis on the body's intrinsic value challenges secular narratives and offers a foundation for Christians to engage thoughtfully and respectfully in these critical societal debates.

For those interested in further exploring these topics, Pearcey's book, "Love Thy Answering Hard Questions About Life and Sexuality," is available through Focus on the Family, with proceeds supporting family-focused ministries.

Transcript

[Nancy Pearcey]

The kids who are gender non conforming, the ones who don't quite fit and who know they don't and who are feeling gender distress because of it, they are being targeted.

[Jim Daly]

That's professor, author and speaker Nancy Pearcey sharing her perspective that devaluing the body has wreaked havoc in our culture. This is FOCUS on the FAMILY with Jim Daly. And thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller. And this episode is once again going to address some mature themes and so probably not advisable for younger listeners.

[John Fuller]

That's always a good warning. John, we had a fascinating discussion with Nancy last time about the hidden philosophy that has caused so much heartache and confusion in our culture today. And we talked about how separating from our bodies, kind of that understanding that the soul and the spirit are over here and the body, well, that's up for grabs and it plays out in different ways in the culture. And Nancy did a beautiful job describing that. When it comes to the transgendered issue, the homosexual issue and even the hookup culture, you know that I can separate my emotions from my body and the experience of my body, all destructive things that aren't what God intends for us being made in his image, male and female. And today we're going to continue that discussion. Go a little deeper. If you missed the discussion last time, go to the website or get the app and you can listen to the full content of that discussion. And again, we'll pick up today and go a little deeper.

[Jim Daly]

Yeah. Nancy Pearcey, as I said, is back with us. She's a professor of apologetics and a scholar in residence at Houston Christian University. She's written a number of great books. And the one that forms the foundation for our discussion today is called Love Thy Answering Hard Questions About Life and Sexuality. Get a copy of the book from us here, call 800-A- Family or stop by our website. The link is in the show notes.

[John Fuller]

Nancy, welcome back. Always good to have you.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Thank you. Good to be here.

[John Fuller]

I so admire your work over the years. You know, we haven't had you here often, but I watch and I read what you put out in articles and of course, the books that you've written, your association with a wonderful mutual friend, the late Chuck Colson, who was such a deep thinker. I remember having lunch with Chuck Colson. It was so good. And he was talking about the classic literature as he always did, Plato, Socrates, Aristotle. And, you know, I was tracking with him. I'd read some of those, but he looked at me and said, you're just like a regular guy Aren't you? I said, yes, I am. He goes, stay that way. But I am always intrigued because I think it's so important for us to understand, as best as we can, a biblical context for the world around us. In fact, we're partnering with the Colson center on a new documentary film called Truth Rising. It's coming out in September. And this is exactly the kind of thing the film addresses, a biblical worldview and its impact on the culture. Because understanding God's truth about bodies, our sexuality, the creation, the fall and redemption, and sharing it with our neighbors is how we fix what's broken in the world. You don't have to be an intellectual. I would put you in that class along with Chuck Olson. But this is for everybody to understand. And it's so wonderful when we have great, deep Christian thinkers who can observe what's happening and give it some context for the rest of us in the church. So I'm very grateful to you for that. Thank you.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Well, thank you.

[John Fuller]

It's good to have you here in that context. Let me ask you as the author, let's go right to that. This concept that we talked about last time, just refresh the thesis, if you will, that what you see is a separation of those contexts, of how God created us, the body over here, spirit and soul over here, and how that is wreaking havoc, as John said, through the culture today, and how the LGBT community movement is using it, how the abortion rights movement has been using this to kind of separate the body from the rest of God's creation.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Do you know? I think I'll start with a quote from a book. I think it was the first book to come out on an academic level defending transgenderism. And of course, I have to, like you said, I have to read those guys, because what the academics say is what filters down to ordinary people.

[John Fuller]

They tend to be trend setters.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Yes, it will filter down. Plato said philosophers should rule the world, and they do, about 200 years after they die.

[John Fuller]

Yeah, that's really true.

[Nancy Pearcey]

And so that's why it's good to know secular worldviews, because our children are picking up secular worldviews, whether they're in public school or in Christian school or home school. They are picking up. They're absorbing secular ideas. And so we need to train them in how to have a critical grid. But here was an academic Princeton University professor writing a book defending transgenderism. And to my surprise, she first started by acknowledging that transgenderism involves inner division, inner conflict, self estrangement, self alienation, you know, because Your gender is separate from your biology. But then she said that doesn't matter. And here's why she said, because what this is a direct quote. What the body tells us is nothing. It has no meaning at all.

[John Fuller]

Wow.

[Nancy Pearcey]

So that's the heart of what's being taught all the way down to one greatest chapter.

[John Fuller]

Well, think of the juxtaposition of that with Paul saying God's nature is clearly in front of you. I mean, I would suggest Paul is saying the opposite.

[Nancy Pearcey]

He's saying the opposite.

[John Fuller]

That by observing nature you see God.

[Nancy Pearcey]

And it's evident to observation that living things are structured for a purpose, that eyes are for seeing, ears are for hearing, wings are for flying, fins are for swimming. In fact, the development of the entire organism is driven by an inbuilt plan or blueprint DNA. And so science is on our side when we say our bodies do have a purpose. We are meant to take our identity from our bodies. We are meant to live in tune with our biological identity. And the sticking point, you know, that we, the thing that we can critique the non Christian worldview on is that all of these secular worldviews deny the body, denigrate the body. They have a low view of the body. And if your body is meaningless, that's a big part of who you are. No wonder young people are becoming more and more depressed. They're being told that their body is not, has no higher purpose or dignity.

[John Fuller]

Yeah. And again, one of the things we want to do here at Focus is to equip the listeners to be able to have these discussions with people. The secularists, the atheists, the non God oriented folks have just been so aggressive getting out there. And the church generally has just somehow confused courtesy and kindness with tolerance. And we just kind of back up and we don't confront that. And you don't have to be mean spirited to confront these things. Confronting something means speak the truth to it and hopefully be equipped. So that's why we're talking with you about.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Well, it's a lot easier to tell people the Christian worldview if you can say it in a positive way. You know, if you can say, well, the Christian ethic is based on honoring your body, living in tune with your body. You know, let me give you one.

[John Fuller]

That sounds so positive.

[Nancy Pearcey]

One of my favorite quotes was from a young woman who lived as a lesbian for many years and then became a Christian. And today she's married to a man. You have to say that. Married to a man and has two kids. And she said the turning point came When I came to trust that God had made me female for a reason. And I wanted to, this is a direct quote, I wanted to honor my body by living in accord with the Creator's design. Right, okay. That's the positive language. That's how we present it to our kids and to our secular neighbors.

[John Fuller]

And really from a Christian perspective, that's an honest person. Let's move to the NPR interview because this gets back to the book content. We're finally back on track. You had an exchange with them, they did an interview with you until they asked a question, you gave an answer that it felt like they couldn't handle. But what was that exchange about?

[Nancy Pearcey]

Yeah, so it was an NPR program in San Francisco, which I thought could be challenging anyway, but it was a pre interview where the producer kind of feels you out. And he asked me about my views on abortion. And he himself commented that most people think abortion is okay until the fetus becomes a person. And I said, well, there's a lot of philosophical baggage in that phrase because you're assuming that the body, you know, the fetus can be biologically human, but not a person. I said, that's a very fragmented view of the human being, a very fractured view that you could somehow divide the person and the body. I said, the pro life view is holistic because what we're saying is the body participates in the dignity and value of the whole person. And he didn't have an answer. I mean, there's silence. So then I continued. I said, the pro choice view is exclusive. It says some people don't measure up, they don't make the cut, they don't qualify for the status of personhood. I said, the pro life view is inclusive. As long as you remember the human race you're in, you have dignity, you have the full dignity of philosophers. Put it this way, you're part of the moral community means the people who we have a moral commitment to.

[John Fuller]

Now, isn't that the contradiction for those people that believe they're the all inclusive people, yet they're not? I mean, that's difficult. How do you peel those blinders off to say you're thinking you're inclusive, but you're actually exclusive?

[Nancy Pearcey]

I was using liberal buzzwords like holistic and inclusive. By the way, the end of that story is a few days later I got a phone call saying, well, we've decided to cancel that program.

[John Fuller]

Yeah, there's a little manipulation. We don't want somebody who has a deep thought on this from the other side. You tell a story also in the book of Martin Pistorius, what was significant about his story and how did that undergird this dignity concept?

[Nancy Pearcey]

He had an unusual case where it's called Locked In Syndrome. And that's where your brain can be perfectly alert and alive, but you can't move your body. And so he had a coma and then his brain came alive, but he couldn't move his body. And so people thought he was a vegetable. And his parents were advised to just put him away in an institution and forget about him, but his father refused. His father got him up every day and bathed him and fed him and took him to a daycare center for disabled people. And then his mother, even in a moment of frustration in his presence, actually said, I wish you would just die. And he heard it. They didn't know his brain was completely alive and active.

[John Fuller]

He just couldn't communicate.

[Nancy Pearcey]

He just couldn't communicate. Lockdown syndrome. Anyway, it was finally a very sensitive therapist noticed that he was making very, very slight eye movements and so on. So she had him tested. And to their very, to their shock, his brain was completely normal. And he has since recovered and has a job and is married and is living an almost normal life. But the point is, what if people said, oh, look, he has no normal functioning, he's not a person. You know, this is where abortion and euthanasia are related. Abortion says you're not a person until you have a certain level of cognitive functioning. Euthanasia says if you lose a certain level of cognitive functioning, a certain level of mental functioning, you go below the line, you are no longer a person. And this is what bioethicists actually argue. They were once a person, but now they are only a body, as one bioethicist put it. And at that point, your treatment can be withheld, your food and water can be discontinued, your organs can be harvested.

[John Fuller]

These things are all interlocked. And that's what we need to understand as Christians. And they are philosophically connected by those that oppose a Christian view.

[Nancy Pearcey]

And legally people say, well, why don't you just let people believe whatever they want to believe? Well, when the laws are changed, it affects everyone. So Roe v. Wade, the court essentially said some humans are not persons. And who decides then? Well, ultimately, whoever has the most power. The state decides marriage. People used to think that marriage is a pre political right, it's natural that men and women come together and form families. But you know what the reasoning was in the Supreme Court decision legalizing same sex marriage, the Obergefell decision, It argued that we need to acknowledge the personhood of same sex people, and that means giving them. That means not paying attention to the biological connection.

[John Fuller]

You know, discard the body.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Yeah, discard the body. The biological correspondence.

[John Fuller]

So it reinforced that issue and that.

[Nancy Pearcey]

It'S just a matter of emotional connection. And then the Bostock decision was Transgender Decision 2020. Again, the court basically said, your personhood is what you choose. If you choose that, you're a woman, if you choose you're a man, then legally, that's what we recognize. We do not recognize. Your body is no longer legally recognized. Wow.

[John Fuller]

Think of that.

[Nancy Pearcey]

And then the final one was parenthood. Parenthood, I think, is the most influential, and that is Pavan decision 2017, I think. I don't remember exactly. It's in the book. There was a decision about same sex parents. So. So in same sex couples, at least one parent is not biologically related to the child.

[John Fuller]

Right.

[Nancy Pearcey]

And so that person's name did not go on the birth certificate until this Supreme Court decision where they said, well, as long as you're legally married, then you qualify as a parent. So now you're not a parent because you're biologically related to your child. You're a parent if the state says you are. So essentially, the state has redefined parenthood apart from biology. Wow.

[John Fuller]

These are big, big things.

[Nancy Pearcey]

All of these legal decisions rest on separating, saying the body biology doesn't matter.

[John Fuller]

Nancy, again, these things are also interlinked. I want to move to the biggest issue of the culture right now, it seems, is this issue of transgenderism. And you have a story in the book with Brandon, who had this issue of gender dysphoria. Describe his story and what you caught out of that.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Yeah, I love to tell his story because it gives par some sense of practically, what do we do? So Brandon was a young boy who clearly had gender dysphoria from a very young age.

[John Fuller]

And it exists.

[Nancy Pearcey]

And that was the more traditional form of it back when it was called transsexualism. It was almost purely male, and it was usually very young. And so he was the classic case. Before he was even walking, when he was still crawling, his babysitter said to his mother, he's too good to be a boy. By which she meant he was sweet, gentle, compliant, and the things we normally associate with girls. And when he was in preschool, when his mother picked him up, invariably he was playing with the little girls and not the little boys. Already in elementary school, he was coming to his parents weeping and saying, I don't fit anywhere. You know, the Boys like sports and video games. Girls like emotions and relationships. And he said, I like what girls like. I'm interested in the things girls are. God should have made me a girl. And this is very painful. By the time he was in his early teens, he was looking on the Internet for a sex reassignment surgery. So what did his parents do? First of all, they made sure he knew that they loved him just the way he was. They did not try to change him. I have a friend who is a former homosexual. And he said, when I was young, I liked music and art. And my father was baffled and kept trying to toughen me up by pushing me into sports and other more traditionally masculine activities. But Brandon's parents didn't do that. They said, it's perf okay to be a gentle, sensitive, emotional boy. It does not mean you're really a girl. His parents favorite line, which they said over and over again was, it's not you that's wrong. It's the stereotypes that are wrong. They took him through the gifts of the spirit. Prophecy and teaching are not masculine as we might expect. When mercy and service are not feminine, the text says that the Holy Spirit distributes them to individuals as he wills. And the fruit of the spirit is not divided into pink boxes and blue boxes either. Brandon had a difficult time. You know, 80 to 90%, depending on the study of kids with gender dysphoria, outgrow it in puberty.

[John Fuller]

Right. With the Russian form, you need to say that. I mean, I've used that stat. 80% of gender dysphoric preteen and teens will come to the correct gender assignment by the time they're 18, 19 years old.

[Nancy Pearcey]

So. Except they're natal sex.

[John Fuller]

Yeah, they're natal sex. I mean, that's a big statement. Because that's where the politics of this gets really messy. Because now you're recruiting these kids that would have normally grown out of their gender dysphoria. 80%.

[Nancy Pearcey]

And we're trapped in 80 to 90 some of them.

[John Fuller]

And we're trapping them in recognizing that 10 to 20% might have a truly lifelong issue. But, man, do you want to trap 80% of the kids for 20% of the issue?

[Nancy Pearcey]

Well, Brandon did not change.

[John Fuller]

Right.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Okay, he was a tougher case, but he went into about his mid-20s, and then he finally concluded that. Here's how he put it. He said, surgery would not give me what I want. It would not make me a girl. And there's a very famous TED talk by cardiologist and the famous line from it is. Every cell has a sex. Every cell has a DNA that's either masculine or feminine. XX XY Obviously, you cannot change every cell in your body. Although the way Brandon put it was a person is not a computer disk that you can erase and start over again.

[John Fuller]

Yeah. You know, Nancy, so much, and I've been thinking about this and writing about it myself, but so much of what we're talking about seems to be spiritual warfare toward women specifically. And when you look at transgenderism particularly, I'm thinking of that court case in California recently where a biological male who claimed to be a female was moved from a male prison to a female prison. And this person was in prison originally for sexual assault. And so when they moved him to a female prison, he was sexually abusing his prison cellmate, a woman. And she was complaining to the guards that they needed to help her to get her to safety because she was being sexually abused. And they said, if you're not careful, we're going to slap hate crimes on top of your other crimes. Think of this poor woman who is serving her time. Whatever she did, I don't even know. But this fact that they were putting her in harm's way, the emotional trauma of that, and that really, to me illustrates this war against women, particularly in this area of gender dysphoria. So I guess the question is, how does abolishing biological sex harm women, even in your illustrations, and then ultimately all of us when it comes to universal human rights?

[Nancy Pearcey]

Yes. Well, fortunately, some feminists have picked up on this issue because they recognize that if you cannot define what a woman is, then you cannot give them legal protection. You cannot legally protect a category of people if you cannot define that category.

[John Fuller]

And that's what they're tripping on. It's getting nonsensical.

[Nancy Pearcey]

And, you know, unfortunately, a lot of feminists do go along with the transgender. If you call something a right, they'll say, oh, we're for it. But there are, they're sometimes called gender critical feminists who are pointing out that the law is essentially being changed in such a way that you cannot defend women's rights. I'm actually in a group, it's called Hands across the Aisle. And we have a public presence, but we also have a private presence so that we can talk to each other. And it's a group of conservative Christian women and very radical, liberal, socialist, many of them lesbian women. And we're coming together behind the scenes and writing sample legislation, writing op ed pieces, and working together on this trans issue because they recognize that Women's rights are at stake. You know, they've been called terfs. Have you heard that term T, E, R, F, S?

[John Fuller]

Tell me what it is.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Trans exclusionary, radical feminist, T, E, R, F. It's meant as a slur.

[John Fuller]

Trans exclusionary.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Right, yeah. Okay, but yet these are the feminists who have recognized that they've been fighting for women's rights all their lives and now they can't even say the word woman.

[John Fuller]

Well, and that's kind of the pretzel I'm talking about. Is this a spiritual observation that kind of the logic of those that aren't coming from a God created perspective? Is it starting to fall in on itself? Are we seeing the implosion of worldly, secular views that are beginning to make no sense because of the infighting between the L, the G, the T, the B? I mean, you know that there's this division now created in the philosophy.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Well, the cool thing is that now we have the growing numbers of D transitioners. And this is great because they can tell us they've been there and back. And many of them say, I had emotional psychological issues that were not dealt with. I was fast tracked into transitioning. And they are now coming back. They're suing the clinics. And as you know, about 25 states now have actually passed laws against medical interventions, puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgeries for minors. 25 states.

[John Fuller]

Well, and in part because Europe has recognized that it does more harm than good. And I certainly applaud Europe for looking at the data. Right, let's give them a hand clap for looking at it and saying, okay, we're going to stop intervening.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Yeah. And it's partly because they allowed it earlier. So they've seen it for a longer time.

[John Fuller]

Correct. But we are not coming to that same conclusion in the US which again now kind of works against science.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Sweden had the longest study and they found that young people who transitioned did not do better, that their suicide rates were actually higher. But detransitioners. Let me give you one story. So there's a girl who I read her interview. She had transitioned to a boy identity at age 11, has lived as a trans boy for three years, and then at age 14, reclaimed her identity as a girl. And here's what she said. The turning point came when I realized, direct quote, it's not conversion therapy to learn to love your body. And I thought even the secular people are seeing this because this was on a very secular liberal website. And even secular people are beginning to say that. You'll see Them calling it transgender ideology is body hatred. Or they'll say, transgender ideology is biology denial. Here's the application. If you're dealing with these children in your family, in your church, in your classroom, they are very emotionally fragile kids. And so they do need to be treated with gentleness and care. And frankly, I think that as Christians, another practical rule is we need to be going out of our way to find these kids because they are being targeted. The kids who are gender nonconforming, the ones who don't quite fit and who know they don't and who are feeling gender distress because of it, they are being targeted. I have a niece who was homeschooled until about fifth grade, and then when she went to public school, the kid said, you're gay, you're lesbian. She said, no, I'm not. Yes, you are. In other words, she was a little bit more masculine in her presentation. And so, well, she wasn't from a Christian family. So she finally decided maybe they were right and now she's a lesbian. But she was targeted by her classmates, right? Recruited, recruited. And another niece, by the way, my brother's daughter, same thing. She was 11, 11 years old. And she said, but the kids are constantly asking each other, are you gay? Are you trans? Because it's cool. Now nobody wants to be a boring old heterosexual. It's cool. There are schools where at least 50% are non binary. Non binary is the safest one. There's nothing to defend. That's the most common nonbinary.

[John Fuller]

This is the culture we're living in. And, Nancy, you've done a great job. We are at the end, but you've done a great job pulling this together, this thought that the body is consequential in our understanding of God's creation of us. And it's connected to every part, body, soul, and spirit. And the Lord intends for us, particularly as believers, to love thy body and understand the creation of the body and what it's meant for. And to the best of our ability, to be able to speak that message to a world that is kind of disoriented now, to this concept of your body being made in his image, male and female. And so I'm so grateful to you for re enlightening us and talking about these core themes, your experiences as a professor. Thank you for being with us.

[Nancy Pearcey]

Oh, thank you. It's been a joy.

[John Fuller]

It's so good. And I hope this is intriguing enough and thoughtful enough that you want a copy of the book. And if you order that through Focus, not the big retailers. All the proceeds go right back into helping families. We don't pay those shareholders. Those dollars will go right back into helping families thrive in Christ and so help us be part of the ministry. Make a gift of any amount or make a monthly gift and a commitment that way. That's how Gene and I support the ministry. If you do that, we'll send you a copy of Nancy's book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.

[Jim Daly]

Yeah. Donate generously as you can today and request that book when you call 800, the letter A in the word family, 800-232-6459. We'll have further details and links to additional articles that really relate to this topic at the website and you'll find those [e-mail] broadcast. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

[John Fuller]

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