← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:01]
Jim Daly
God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising starting September 5th and find out how you can be a part of the change and become an agent of restoration. Sign up@truthrising.com that's truthrising.com.
- [00:31]
Justin Early
You know, nobody thinks I want to be the kind of dad the night who yells their kids to bed. Like, nobody thinks that. But so many of us do that because of our instinctual responses to the mess and the chaos. And I found that fighting habit with habit was actually a grace.
- [00:46]
John Fuller
Well, that's Justin Early. He's our guest today on FOCUS on the FAMILY with Jim Daly. He'll be sharing about how you can navigate the chaos of parenting young children. And your host is FOCUS President Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.
- [00:58]
Jim Daly
I just think all the parents just went, finally, there's an easy step. Navigate all the challenges.
- [01:04]
John Fuller
Yeah, all of them.
- [01:04]
Jim Daly
I like that. Hopefully a few. But, you know, it's a great topic about how to, you know, communicate with your young children particularly. And this is a children's book we're going to talk about today, the Big Mess. It starts right there. I'm sure a lot of moms and some dads are going, yeah, it feels like every day is the big mess. And you know, we don't talk about children's books too often, but they're good things to be highlighting so that you know about them and can get them. And I was mentioning off mic that one of our favorites was Goodnight Moon. I think I read that over a thousand times to the boys. Yet there's so many good things to be learning. Also, we wanted to mention something that we've started not long ago called Age and Stage. And this is a perfect time to mention that to you. You can go up. It's free. Just let us know the age of your children and we will age that record over time up until 18. And we'll send you something weekly to think about and to apply in your parenting as Your goes from 1 to 5 to 10 to all the way up to 18. And it's a good little parenting tool and I want more people to sign up for that. Again, it's free. And you can pass that along to friends if your grandparents let your adult kids know about it.
- [02:17]
John Fuller
Yeah, we want to be part of the journey. And this is a terrific way for you to have insights on an Ongoing basis. And we've got details about age and stage. And also about the book. Jim mentioned the Big Mess at our website, and the link is in the show notes. And I mentioned our guest is Justin Early. He has a law practice, a business law practice, and he and his wife Lauren have four young sons. So this is.
- [02:42]
Justin Early
Right.
- [02:42]
John Fuller
This book is out of that experience.
- [02:44]
Jim Daly
I know. Welcome.
- [02:46]
Justin Early
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me back.
- [02:47]
Jim Daly
I totally get the idea of the Big Mess. I think we lived in it with two boys. I can't imagine four boys.
- [02:53]
Justin Early
Yeah, it's exponential.
- [02:55]
Jim Daly
You mentioned a lot about broken windows and broken stuff, drywall.
- [02:59]
Justin Early
That's right.
- [03:00]
Jim Daly
Glad you're part of the club.
- [03:01]
Justin Early
Well, I think I mentioned last time we moved into a new house about a year and a half ago, and by the end of, I think, seven months, we had seven holes in the drywall, one broken window. So one of the things that I think about a lot, and I actually wrote this as the inscription in my parenting book, habits of the Household, that it's better to raise whole children than to repair broken men and women. And a lot of times, when I think about the mess in the household, and this goes for the conflict and the mess, it's helpful to remember that your real job here is relationships. Your real job is raising kids who have whole relationships.
- [03:34]
Jim Daly
Now, you don't just come out of the womb knowing that. How did you learn that this was the priority? Because we dads, I mean, breaking stuff around the house, I mean, it's spilling on the carpet. I remember meeting a man. It was part of his testimony through the Resilient Kids program that we have in public schools. And he said, I just didn't know how to be a dad when my daughter spilled the milk, all I knew to do was to spank her. And going through the program, he said, I realize that you show grace and forgiveness.
- [04:04]
Justin Early
Yes. So this was my entry point to writing about parenting and is also the reason why I came to write the Big Mess. One night, I'm putting my four boys to bed. And putting four boys to bed is exactly what you think it's like, right? I mean, just total chaos. It's a total mess. But that mess is always the guise of also the relational mess because there's bathwater on the floor. I'm frustrated. And I remember yelling my children to bed and then saying, God loves you, and so do I close the door. Like short prayer. And I was standing in the hallway. I was an author and a lawyer already. I'd written a book about spiritual habits and how they shape our spirituality. And I'm thinking, I also have this other habit of yelling my kids to bed every night. And that was the time where I started to think, oh, my goodness, I've got to get better at dealing with the relational mess in the house, because otherwise I'm going to become the dad who's always trying to yell them into good behavior. And guess what? That doesn't work. And they're going to remember me as somebody who just cared about getting things in order rather than who I actually want to be. And that is like Jesus who comes into the mess of our relationships as we are and says, I love you and I'm going to call you forward. And that was the beginning of writing about Habits of the Household, which is my parenting book. And the Big Mess is really an iteration of that for children to remind parents and kids that it's in the mess of family life that we do the wonderful thing that we're called to, and that is love God and love each other. So we got to figure out how to do that in the mess, not outside of it.
- [05:34]
Jim Daly
Let me ask you this, because really, the important point, as dads and moms, too, a lot of moms are listening, and this is a mom and dad show. But the idea of kind of rethinking that there are things that we learn as children that we carry forward. It's in our DNA, literally. And then we have behavioral things that we experienced as children, so that wiring when we get older and our kids are a little out of sorts, or they're having fun and giggling when they shouldn't be giggling and throwing things when they shouldn't be throwing things. And we just spark up like, stop that. Knock that off. Don't do that now. And then you walk away from that going, why was I so hard about that stuff. How do you replace that with thoughtful adult thinking in the moment, daddy thinking, to be able to de escalate that and just say, I'm glad you guys are having fun. Can we now think about going to bed?
- [06:33]
Justin Early
There you go. So this is sort of the center.
- [06:35]
Jim Daly
It's practiced.
- [06:36]
Justin Early
This is the center idea of Habits of the Household and why I titled my parenting book Habits of the Household. Because I found in parenting in these moments that I was unable to think my way out of a problem that I didn't think my way into. I reacted to these things out of instinct. It was habit that I barked at my kids and that, you know, nobody thinks I want to be the kind of dad Tonight, who yells their kids to bed? Like, nobody thinks that, but so many of us do that because of our instinctual responses to the mess and the cake. And I found that fighting habit with habit was actually a grace where the Lord, you sort of invited me to see that, hey, you can actually plan out ahead of time. Here's some ways I might respond to this. And one of the huge ones for me, and I recommend this with parents trying to help their kids reconcile and moments of discipline, huge habit that helped me is the habit of pause prayers where so before I go into, oh, I need to address this moment discipline or something happens. Just very briefly, very. And I'm talking very, very briefly, just pray. Just literally say, lord, help me be more like you than me in this moment. Okay, that's a good start. Yeah. And I mean, it sort of seems basic like, oh, pray, right. Well, that's because prayer is powerful. But on the other hand, you're fighting habit with habit because you're practicing a new way of interrupting your old habit and then going through it. Do a different route. And so this is addressing the way God made your body and brain to say, I want to be somebody different in moments of discipline. And pause prayers have been enormously helpful.
- [08:02]
Jim Daly
For me, you know, in that regard. Temperaments of chur are very different and our two sons were very different. I'm sure you see that with your four sons. Yes, I had the hardcore guy who could not be told anything and then I had the really tender guy that if you looked at him wrong, whoop, he melted. And the point I want to make is a serious one because I think a tender hearted child shame is so easily applied to themselves when you're correcting their behavior. You have to go out of your way to say, now, I'm not speaking about who you are and how God made you you. It's just what you did was unacceptable. But if you miss that, that child, you could heap on so much shame. And then by the time they're a teenager, if as a parent you haven't corrected that, you're going to have a problem.
- [08:52]
Justin Early
Yeah, and I think about that a lot, Jim. And I love that Jesus way of life. His grace and truth helps us address both of those. Because when I pray a short pause prayer, lord, help me be more like you than me in this moment. What I'm thinking in my head is, let me to my kids be both the authority. You know, Jesus is too good to let us go on in our misbehavior. Like he's going to protect us and others. But he does it, that truth with grace. You know, he comes out not to shame you, not to condemn you, but to reconcile you back to himself. And this is a lot of what I think about with both discipline in the household and helping kids do it. And the big mess is all about that. Actually, it's about sibling reconciliation in the mess of sibling life. Because if you're like me, and I think most people are, your kids fight all the time and you've got to figure out how to help them. Say, hey, the mark of a Christian family is not that we don't fight, everybody fights. The mark of a Christian family is that we actually figure out a way to reconcile. Not to hurt each other, not to shame each other, but to reconcile. And that is the great challenge, I think, for Christian families, creating moments.
- [09:57]
Jim Daly
And again, I'm not, you know, everybody can create these moments, but you need to be mindful of it. I think as a dad, I was pretty mindful about trying to be on top of those moments. You never know when they're going to spark. It could be on the way to a camping trip, you know, whatever.
- [10:11]
Justin Early
And I used to talk for us, it's like hourly.
- [10:14]
Jim Daly
You used to talk to Jean about that because she was much more into formal devotional time with the kids. Start at 7, go to 7:30. And that's good. You need structure. I was more like in the car talking stories. But in that regard, you and your son, you had a story about playing the guitar and having a chit chat. But how did that go down? How old was your son when this happened?
- [10:39]
Justin Early
Well, this is a recent story actually. So he's 13 when that happened.
- [10:43]
Jim Daly
Thirteen.
- [10:43]
Justin Early
And I think about that because I've thought a lot about those structured times in the younger years, you know, how you structure moments to come out of family devotion or to come out of nighttime prayer. And it's so, so helpful for the younger years. Both are good, oh, so wonderful. But as kids get older and most parents intuit this, it becomes a little more free form what you're trying to do. And this is what I think about a lot I'm learning about it right now, is structuring space instead of structuring content. So in the younger years, and we still do this because I still got a six and an eight year old boy in the house, we're structuring a bedtime liturgy, a bedtime prayer, you know, and everybody's doing a family devotion once a week, as messy as they are. But recently I'm finding with my 13 year old, if I really want him to engage, what I need to do is structure space and time for him to engage. So recently I was trying to pull some information out of him because I heard from another dad that something had happened to school. And I'll respect privacy by not saying what that was. It wasn't too bad. But I was like, I want to talk to him about this. And I asked him, you know, at family dinner, you know, did anything happen at school day? Nothing. And then that night I was like, hey, you want to stay up late and play the guitar together? He was like, yeah. So he's learning and I play at an amateur level. And we're both just like plucking and trading ideas. And about half an hour in, he kind of like rests his hand on the guitar and he says, hey, can I tell you something? And I was like, sure. And we talked about it. It was exactly what I was hoping. And you know, every time doesn't work this well. Right. But structuring space where we could be kind of side to side looking at something else. This could be a walk or a hike or throwing the baseball or football, playing guitar. But I find with the older boys, structuring space is where they get pulled out into those intentional moments of conversation.
- [12:24]
Jim Daly
I think that's really good. And, you know, unfortunately, I don't know that we as parents appreciate differences that way. And I think for spouses, we need to appreciate God bringing you together as a couple. Then you have children.
- [12:38]
Justin Early
Yes.
- [12:38]
Jim Daly
And use both of your strengths to do the things that really help your children to thrive.
- [12:44]
Justin Early
And I think we see both reflected in the life of Jesus. I mean, he walks with his disciples and talks and talks and talks. And then he also sometimes just teaches. And both are super valid ways. But you've got to be a student of your child as a parent.
- [12:58]
Jim Daly
The children's book, the Big Mess, I think lends itself to solving sibling rivalry. I mean, you got the mouse and the moose and they're going at it and the mouse is creating these wonderful, delicious treats, and the other child keeps knocking them over and knocking them down. Speak to that idea of how to help bring harmony into sibling rivalry. That's typical. In our case, we were really blessed. Our boys, they had their normal, you know, skirmishes, but they're pretty limited. And they now would say they're one another's best friends. That's a good thing. It's a beautiful thing, but you have to be mindful of it.
- [13:38]
Justin Early
Oh, yes. And I mean, this is on the first couple pages of the Bible. Right. That siblings don't necessarily get along.
- [13:44]
Jim Daly
Yeah, no kidding.
- [13:45]
Justin Early
And it can go bad. It is no guarantee that families become friends. Right? And a lot of what I'm trying to do in the Big Mess is give people just a little way to think about sibling reconciliation. And because I think stories, Jim, are so important. You know, you mentioned Goodnight Moon earlier because many of us read that book thousands of times, and there's many other children's book that you read over and over, and you internalize them. Right. And stories are powerful. And I wanted to give children and parents a little story of reconciliation so that we could both internalize that. Hey, that's what families do. Right? Again, the mark of a Christian family is not that you don't have conflict, it's that you reconcile. And I want kids to see that, too. And so the big mess is just about a big brother, Mouse, who makes fantastic dessert creations. Think about your child who makes the Lego creations or does all the projects. You know, most families have one child who gets into it, and then most families also have another child who just seems to accidentally mess everything up all the time, Sometimes intentionally, maybe, and that's Moose. He comes in increasingly fantastic blunders, because remember, we're trying to keep children's attention, right? So we have desserts in this book that are crashing and smashing. Moose just acts. Messes up all of Mouse's creations. And the turn in the book comes when after Mouse gets really, really frustrated with his brother and tries to avoid him, he finally decides, you know, what. What if I made something that was made to be smashed? And he invites his younger brother into his creation by saying, come make a mess with me. Okay? And so this is, again, supposed to be really fun with kids. So they build a huge ice cream sundae that then they launch Moose out of a slingshot. I mean, getting fantastic here. He lands on a seesaw, explodes the ice cream sundae, and the whole neighborhood catches ice cream banana splits raining down from the sky.
- [15:31]
Jim Daly
I'd like to give that a try.
- [15:32]
Justin Early
You know, we actually have at home.
- [15:34]
Jim Daly
Are you serious?
- [15:34]
Justin Early
For the launch party for this book, we did a launch party where we launched desserts. And guess what? Kids love it. And so. And here's the thing. That's an art of parenting, right? To learn. You're gonna engage with stories so often with your kids and to learn to ask them a question about, hey, how does this teach us about God? Is one of the great arts of being a parent?
- [15:52]
Jim Daly
No, it's so True. I think the other thing that I noticed. And John, maybe you noticed this too. Like, this is so simple. But how many times we said please, say please, say thank you, please and thank you, please and thank you. That, too was probably a thousand or more times that we would have reminded them, say please. And it starts at 2. And you're asking them to acknowledge that. And you think, does it go in one ear and out the other?
- [16:20]
Justin Early
And then somewhere, somewhere along the line.
- [16:23]
Jim Daly
Along that line, typically late teens, it starts to appear like a flower blossoming in their heart. And you catch them saying please or thank you to somebody. You're going, oh, they were listening.
- [16:36]
Justin Early
Yes.
- [16:37]
Jim Daly
It's kind of like that.
- [16:38]
Justin Early
It is. This is why I love talking about the spirituality of habit. Because I think it's so helpful for parents to be reminded that those mundane habits that you think are just ordinary and don't matter are extraordinary seeds of spiritual teaching.
- [16:54]
Jim Daly
And don't grow weary in it and don't mourn it. How many times have I told you that really is counterproductive. Just say it again.
- [17:02]
Justin Early
That's right.
- [17:03]
Jim Daly
Don't forget to say thank you.
- [17:04]
Justin Early
And I had a moment with my kids actually recently. This was just, I think, last week, where they were getting frustrated or fighting about something, I honestly can't remember. And I said, hey, why don't you invite your little brother into it? You know, make it fun for him. And he literally looks at me, goes like, oh, like mouse in the story. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, it worked with my kids. You know, habits and stories go together because we read them over and over. We do them over and over. And when you're reading kids a story over and over, it might take a while, but they'll start to connect. And that's why I wanted to give parents a good, fun story that their kids would say, read it again. Because I want to give them internalized little heroes of reconciliation, like little examples of, oh, I could be like this.
- [17:46]
Jim Daly
Yeah, that's so, so good. You encourage your boys to hug each other after an argument. Now, that's good, too. That's like saying please and thank you and sorry.
- [17:54]
Justin Early
Yeah.
- [17:55]
Jim Daly
So how's that work?
- [17:56]
Justin Early
Most families, and I think this is really healthy, have a way of saying, you know, you need to apologize, you need to forgive. And I really think that's wonderful. I think you should. But I found that often our kids, after saying, I'm sorry, I forgive you, they were looking at the ground, looking frustrated, you know, And I thought, we're not reconciled Here. So we started doing this thing where we said, hey, all right, now you need to do a brother's hug. And that's where they had to hold onto each other for as long as it takes until not one but both of them started smiling. And very quickly. And this is for younger kids. It works the best. I noticed that it really helped them because about four or five seconds of holding onto each other, they started to get playful again. They started to wiggle, they started to wrestle. And I actually subsequently found out that that holding onto another human for a hug, I think about eight seconds, releases these brain hormones that encourage bonding. I mean, there's a lot, you know, God made the body, right? I didn't know this at the time, but it was a way for them to embody reconciliation. And it helped us so much, and it still does, because we need embodied ways to come back together in the family, embodied ways to enact what Jesus has done for us, and that is reconcile us back into his love.
- [19:08]
John Fuller
Along those lines. Justin, I'm so glad you're talking about this, because we had too many situations where we would just tell the kids, work it out. Right? I mean, so we want to demonstrate you were busy. Well, yeah, you get a certain number. There is chaos. So modeling grace. Talk about the importance of modeling grace, because I think if I were to have a redo, I would start with a little more grace for myself. As you said, Jim, it's just too much for one person to do well. But also I'd want to help my kids do what you were describing there. Hug each other and give each other some slack.
- [19:41]
Justin Early
Well, you know, and I think about this a lot. I talk to parents about it a lot. So I'll give you three quick habits that I actually think are incredibly helpful here. One is the pause prayers that I mentioned earlier. For you to pause and pray is extraordinarily different. It's just a different way to approach it, and it helps you re. Encounter Jesus. Grace before you go into that moment. Okay, then. For you to help your children do some liturgy of reconciliation, figure out what helps them show grace to each other. You know, it might be a brother's hug, or it might be a walk or something else, but I do think there's something to be said. This would be the third one of helping them learn to work it out. So think about this as they get older. I often tell parents, now, if they're, you know, let's say 4, 5, 6, they're getting older, and you hear a fight breaking out, just wait A minute. Because you've been trained by the younger years to run in and intervene, and that's good and fine. But one of the things that we want to do is train our kids, teach them to start to learn to negotiate conflict, negotiate compromise and forgive each other, Right? And they actually need space to do that. So one of the things I do with my boys now, and I'll have to encourage my wife sometimes. Wait, give them. Give them a second. They might work this out, you know, and if it's going badly, if it's going towards, you know, a fist fight, then, like, obviously, I'm going to run and break it up. But if it's. And this, you know, obviously it happens. But. But if I think, no, they're learning to work it out now, I might come up and say, hey, boys, I'm gonna give you three minutes. I'm gonna come back and I wanna hear the fair, gracious compromise that you came to. And I'll look at the older one and I'll say, it has to be fair. And then I'll come back in three minutes and I'll say, you know, if you didn't figure it out, I'm gonna have to take the toy away or something. And I think it dignifies them with the ability to say, all right, I'm gonna figure out how to solve this, and helps them learn that to give grace to the other. Because somebody's gonna have to give and somebody's gonna have to take and so of helping them learn to do it. And obviously, this is parenting, right? You're helping them along. You're walking them towards it. And, you know, if you're not modeling it, it's not going to go well. So this could be a whole other conversation. But if you want to think really hard about this, think about what they see when they're looking at you and your spouse. You know, when I'm talking to Lauren, probably the most important thing that I'm going to teach them about negotiating conflict, compromise, and being gracious is how I talked to Lauren. So I think a lot about that. You know, when I'm talking in front of them or not, they're watching that.
- [22:03]
Jim Daly
Yeah, that's good. That's convicting. It is, but it is good. And I'm thinking of the parent right at the end here, Justin, who is saying. And again, we can use these as excuses, but you're an attorney, you're busy, you're doing things. You're writing children's books. I mean, so you've got your Plate full, but you've got your eye on the right ball. So in that regard, how do we prioritize so we don't fall back on that excuse to say, I'm so busy, I don't have time to do all those things or be that mindful about it? I think we could just do it naturally. The kids will turn out okay. You know what I'm saying here?
- [22:42]
Justin Early
Yeah. I would remind people of just two principles, and one is to do nothing is to do everything. So that means if you're just saying, I'm too busy, I can't do that. Let's let it happen naturally. Well, you're saying, I'm not going to do anything, which means you're basically going to submit to the modern American culture of discipleship, which is to disciple you in this busy, chaotic, anxious churn of activity and screen time and screen time and not paying attention. And so to say, like, I don't have time for this, is to say that you do have time for someone else's discipleship. So I would admit that I'm a quote unquote, busy, stressed person. I mean, I run a law practice, write books, and I came at this through failure. Right. So it was by realizing that, oh, my gosh, if I do nothing, I'm going to end up the angry, anxious dad who's yelling his kids to bed at night. And so the corollary principle to that is that Jesus burden is light. And this is such good news. To say, oh, my goodness, I'm going to take all these ordinary moments and let Jesus disciple them is not to say, I'm going to take on a million new tasks that are going to wear me out. No, it's the opposite. It's to say, you're going to throw off the million old tasks that the world is asking of you and say, I'm going to take on the light yoke of Jesus and do a couple things intentionally. And guess what? The reason we call it the light yoke, the easy burden, is because he's under it with you. You know, he's helping you. And I just want to point out that you're under somebody's yoke. You're under somebody's way of discipleship. So to do nothing is to submit to that. But to do something, it could just be a little thing like a little bedtime liturgy, little sibling reconciliation liturgy. Reading them a kid's book at night is to start to come under the easy, intentional yoke of Jesus. And there is not only love and reconciliation and grace but it's also the lightness of walking with him. And that's way better than doing nothing.
- [24:32]
Jim Daly
That is so good, man. I could have used that a few years ago, but I can apply it today.
- [24:38]
Justin Early
It's never too late. It's never too late. People say, oh, the ship has sailed. You know, I've already parented my kids. I got a friend in the Navy and he tells me that when ships sail and they have a big problem, they turn around and go back to harbor. It's never too late to do something rather than nothing.
- [24:51]
Jim Daly
That's a safe way to go. Hey Justin, thanks again for being with us. This is great. And talking about a kid's book for 30 minutes. It worked out. There's a lot more in this but the Big Mess, a deliciously funny story of siblings learning to get along. It's a free guide on how to throw dessert around your house. It's awesome.
- [25:10]
Justin Early
There you go. I guarantee you your kids will say, I love it. Read it again. Read it again. They might make a mistake mess from it, but that's okay.
- [25:16]
Jim Daly
Yeah, read it again, dad. Anyway, when you make a donation of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thanks. We are a nonprofit ministry and your gifts allow us to keep serving many more families. By partnering with us in ministry, you help make biblical resources available for parents to navigate the culture and raise Christ centered kids. Right now only about 1% of listeners give financially to the ministry. Can you imagine the kingdom impact that we would have if just 2% of the listeners would support the ministry? One of the great free resources we have for parents is the Practice makes parent podcast. Dr. Danny Huerta and Rebecca St. James host parenting experts every week. They'll help you adapt to parenting in the changing culture and offer real life strategies for every stage of parenthood.
- [26:07]
John Fuller
Yeah, it's a great podcast and you can find practice makes parent and a way to share it with your friends in the show notes. And if you've benefited from the conversation today or any of our free resources like the podcast and articles perhaps on our website, please consider giving back to focus. When you make a generous contribution, you help us to keep making our resources available to you and others who have a need. Donate today and request your copy of the book from Justin early the Big Mess, a deliciously funny story of siblings learning to get along. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family 800-232-6459 or you'll find details to donate and get that book and other resources in the show. Notes thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ. Your marriage can be redeemed, even if the fights seem constant, even if there's.
- [27:20]
Jim Daly
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- [27:22]
John Fuller
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Jim Daly
Them with a Hope Restored Marriage Intensive Our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face challenges together. We'll talk with you, pray with you.
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John Fuller
And help you find out which program will work best.
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Jim Daly
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