← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:02]
Les Parrott
My wife and I fight probably the.
- [00:04]
Leslie Parrott
Most over home improvement miscommunication, probably over chores. Sadly, he lost his job recently.
- [00:12]
Les Parrott
And so it's like, please don't spend any money.
- [00:14]
Jim Daly
And then I see something hit the.
- [00:16]
John Fuller
Checking account, and I'm like, D. Well.
- [00:19]
Jim Daly
There are a lot of reasons that couples disagree, but so many of us shy away from conflict or just try to avoid it altogether. And as you're going to hear, conflict can actually strengthen your relationship. Welcome to this episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.
- [00:35]
John Fuller
John Our guests today are doctors Les and Leslie Parrott, and we'll be hearing a very engaging presentation where they'll share some funny stories from their own marital spats. That's always interesting. And eventually these things drew them closer together, and they'll describe that for us. And I know for me, my personality, you know, sometimes I can barb and jab verbally, and, you know, I know that, but it's almost like those words are falling out of your mouth. You're trying to catch them as they're going.
- [01:04]
Jim Daly
Yeah, there's a little warning that says, don't try this at home.
- [01:08]
John Fuller
Yeah, don't do this. And, I mean, it's amazing. Even though we know the right things to do, how often do we still do the wrong thing? And I think what Les and Leslie are going to share this time will really help us, equip us really to be better at catching those words before they escape your mouth.
- [01:26]
Jim Daly
Well. Well, the Parrots speak at conferences in 40 cities a year, so a lot of married couples have benefited from their wisdom. And Les Parrott is a clinical psychologist. Leslie is a marriage and family therapist. They've been married since 1984 and have two sons. And here now are Les and Leslie Parrott at one of their seminars discussing the good and the not so good kinds of conflict in marriage.
- [01:52]
Les Parrott
We're here to talk about conflict. How do you fight a good fight? In fact, we might as well ask you. What do you guys just holler it out. What do you fight about? Money.
- [02:01]
Leslie Parrott
Money.
- [02:03]
Les Parrott
That is actually the number one thing that couples fight about more than any other topic. Money. What else? Kids. All right. I don't identify with that time, how we spend our time. Isn't it true we fight about anything and everything? Yes. I mean, you know how you drive, get in the left lane. I am in the left lane. You know, that kind of stuff we fight about. It takes very little for the fur to fly in most marriages. In fact, you're going to think we Were making. We were in a counseling session not long ago, talking with a couple, and they were having a fight, a continual fight, because she did not like the way he breathed. That's the truth. That's when we knew we fight about anything.
- [02:49]
Leslie Parrott
Yes, we do.
- [02:49]
Les Parrott
And everything.
- [02:50]
Leslie Parrott
And I don't know if you guys are like us, but we often even have some of our worst fights in public. I don't know what it is about us, but that happens to us. I don't know if that happens to you.
- [02:58]
Les Parrott
Have you guys ever had a fight in public? Oh, you liars. Everybody, nobody in here has had a fight in public. We were once getting ready to speak at a marriage seminar and we had a little conflict because one of us was late. We've just had some of our worst fights in the most public of places.
- [03:25]
Leslie Parrott
We have, in fact, one of the, you know, do you have fights in your marriage that kind of become defining moments? In other words, your spouse really never lets you forget that moment or. Or the words that were said in that moment. And that kind of thing, they just go down as a part of your story. We had one of those times early in our marriage. It was a weekend away with our good friends Randy and Pam to the city of San Francisco. Now for all four of us, we had never been to that great city. We are so excited we're having this time off. So the first thing we do, we pull into the city and we go right for the cable car station. Because we think, of course, that's it. That's what you do. You get the view of the city. So here we are, and we're waiting. And of course, it's this long line. It's a gorgeous sunny day. And you know, we're trying to have fun in line, but we're impatient. Finally, Les, who is rather type a personality in his style, says, you know, I don't really think we need to be waiting in this line. I'm pretty sure if we just go up to the top of this hill, we can catch a cable car without waiting down here at the station.
- [04:19]
Les Parrott
They said, are you sure you know what you're talking about? I said, oh, yeah, I know what I'm talking about. And you know, I'd seen the Rice a Roni commercials. I knew you could do this.
- [04:30]
Leslie Parrott
So we're very trusting. You know, we all trudge up the hill and are waiting on the street corner.
- [04:35]
Les Parrott
Not long.
- [04:35]
Leslie Parrott
Randy and Les turn to Pam and to me and they say, okay, you know, girls, are you ready? Are you ready for this? We're thinking, well, yeah, I mean, we've been waiting in line. We want to ride the cable car. Isn't that obvious? But what we don't realize.
- [04:46]
Les Parrott
Let me just interrupt you just for a second. How many of you have ridden a cable car in San Francisco? Okay, you've all done something we haven't done. I just wanted to clear that up. Just want to get that clear right at the top.
- [05:01]
Leslie Parrott
So here comes this of kind cable car zooming by. Well, Les and Randy understand the program. We do not, you know, this. They don't stop, they just kind of zoom by. They have to slow down at the crest of the hill and if you're lucky, you can leap on. You know, all the people that waited at the station are already on the car, both hanging out and in. So here comes the first cable car. We all scramble. Randy and Les make it on. Of course, Pam and I don't even come close. I mean, we didn't even hit the cable car. So they, you know, they're all the way up, two or three blocks away, and they look back and go, oh, I wonder where the, you know, our wives are. And we're kind of waving.
- [05:35]
Les Parrott
And so it dawns on us, they didn't understand you have to push people off in order to get on it.
- [05:41]
Leslie Parrott
So they come back and we kind of regroup and you know, Leslie, Pam, do you understand this? And let's try this again. And so we all revved up and Pam and I are, you know, ready and we're going to make a leap for it and we can do this. So here comes the next cable car. Well, Pam's right in front of me and we all go to make a leap. She's right in front of me, though, and she slowly, when she hits a cable car and falls down, you know, and so I'm scrambling out of the way. Les jumps off, tries to move her out of harm's way.
- [06:05]
Les Parrott
No, he's oblivious, realizes his wife has fallen off.
- [06:08]
Leslie Parrott
So here's Pam now and you know, we wave Randy back. And now she's got a hole in her jeans, she's got a bloody knee, you know, this whole thing.
- [06:15]
Les Parrott
Randy comes back, she's still sitting on the ground. Randy comes back to her and says, pam, are you okay? And she says, I don't know, I guess so. And so Randy looks at me and goes, good, let's catch the next car when he comes along.
- [06:27]
Leslie Parrott
Now at this point can see the fear in my face. My idea of vacation is not a bloody knee, you know, And So I.
- [06:35]
Les Parrott
Didn'T just see it on her face. I mean, she was telling me, I'm scared to death. I'm not going to do this. And so I just thought she needed some advice. And I told her, listen, all you got to do is trust me. I said, I have made it on two out of two times. I said, all you got to do is trust me. I said, as a matter of fact, just hold my arm when this next thing comes along. So she says, oh, I guess. Okay, so this is the third time around. You with me, guys? Third time the car comes along. We jump onto this thing. I grab onto this pole, and as I do so, Leslie's going, we're not going to make it. We're not going to make it. And I'm saying, look, we've made it. I just pushed that guy off the thing. We're here. And she's saying, no. And she starts to pull me off saying, we're not going to make it. This isn't safe. We're not answering, listen, we've made it. And she pulls. Pulls me off of this car. I am so frustrated, you understand? We've spent half of our vacation now trying to get on this thing the quick way. Yeah. And I am so frustrated. I just say the very first thing that registers in my mind, and it just popped in there. I yelled out at the top of my lungs. I looked at her and I said, I have a brain. You know, I just thought it was important people understand that. And everybody's cranking their necks to see who has the brain, you know. And then the next thing that popped into my mind, I hollered out, too. And I said, all you had to do was trust me. And Leslie uttered back something that I'll never, ever let her forget in our marriage. Do you remember what you said? Of course.
- [08:05]
Leslie Parrott
Yes, of course. And, you know, at this point, the tears are bubbling up, you know, so my voice is breaking. I don't know how this came out, but I said, well, to be honest, I trust God for my safety, but I don't trust you.
- [08:18]
Les Parrott
People were really cranking their nec. Who's the theological couple with the big brain? Randy and Pam were coming back towards us when we were in the middle of this discussion, and they kind of heard that and then just turned on their heels and walked the other way.
- [08:33]
Leslie Parrott
You know, and we never rode the.
- [08:36]
Les Parrott
Cable cars and never have, probably never will. A lot of warm memories there. But I don't know, maybe. Maybe you don't have fights like that. I hope you Don't. But we all fight. Isn't it true? I mean, it's just a part of married life. If you're together long enough, you're going to have some tension, you're going to have some conflicts. And if you don't, it's because you're tiptoeing around on things and you're not genuine with each other. Right? We all have conflict. In fact, my favorite verse in all of Scripture on conflict, Romans 12, is it 1818. And it says this. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, try to live at peace with everyone. Isn't that a good verse? If it's possible. You know why I love that verse? Because I don't know of another verse in all of Scripture that has more qualifiers in it than that verse. If it's possible, as far as it depends on you, try. Do what you can, you know? But you can expect conflict to be a part of married life. It's just there. I love what the great philosopher Phyllis Diller said. She said, never go to bed mad. Stay up and fight. Pretty good advice. Carl Jung said something a little more insight. He said conflict is like fire. He says it has two aspects, that of burning and that of shedding light. And what we want to do with the time that we have with you this morning as we kick this whole day off, is to kind of roll up our sleeves and talk about, how do you fight a fair fight, a good fight fight, how do you do that? And we want to give you some new tools for doing that. In fact, what we want to do before we even give them to you is help you identify, what are you already good at when it comes to fighting a good fight? My hunch is everybody in here is pretty good at one thing or another when it comes to resolving conflict. Let's hear from you. What do you guys do? Well, when it comes to fighting a good fight, somebody share with us what you do. Yeah, right over here. What do you do? Stick to the point. Stick to the point. That's important, really important. Because sometimes people fall into a trap.
- [10:40]
Leslie Parrott
In fact, we have a word for it as counselors. We call it kitchen sinking. You know, you get an argument going and then you just start bringing up everything you've been mad about and haven't talked about and throw it all in there.
- [10:49]
Les Parrott
In 1974, remember what you did? Right? What else do you guys do? Well, yeah, over here, you stay in the ring. What do you mean? You don't check out and withdraw and get to that stonewalling stage. That's great.
- [11:04]
John Fuller
That's great.
- [11:05]
Les Parrott
If you know how to fight a good fight, you can use conflict to your advantage. And rather than allow it to burn up your love life, allow it to enhance that. And, boy, I can't think of any of us that don't need to learn how to do that.
- [11:18]
Leslie Parrott
In fact, and I love that picture of conflict is fire because it really is that powerful. It can burn up a relationship, and it also can shed light and increase intimacy. And we know that, in fact, at the university where we teach in Seattle, Seattle Pacific University, it's on a canal. And right across the canal from us is a little place affectionately known as the Love Lab. And it's where the work of a premier researcher in the area of conflict and marriage takes place. Dr. John Gottman. Now, in this lab, they simply invite couples to. To come and stay in this lab. And then what they do, and they've done this for three decades now, is they just let them live their life and analyze what goes on in their conflicts.
- [11:58]
Les Parrott
It's just like any other day for these couples. They respond to an ad in the newspaper. They come in, they live in this. It's like a little studio apartment for the day. It's just like that, except that it has a camera in each of the four corners of the room that's watching them for the entire experience. Behind one wall is a bank of computers and screens and so forth. And there's a team of researchers back there that is noting every facial expression both of the people make throughout the entire day. Every time they grin or whatever, they. And they're keeping track of all this stuff. They're also hooked up to biofeedback equipment so that they have. Their heart rate is being measured, their galvanic skin response, you know, the skin temperature. There's little electrodes around their forehead measuring their muscle tension. Other than that, it's just like any other day for these couples.
- [12:44]
Leslie Parrott
Now, I have to tell you that this research is powerful, and let me tell you why. They have discovered now, after three decades of working with couples in conflict, that they can predict with a greater than 94% accuracy rate whether a couple's marriage will succeed or fail based on nothing else but how they fight.
- [13:04]
Les Parrott
Isn't that amazing? With a greater than 90% accuracy rate, they can tell you whether a marriage will. Will succeed or fail. And we've seen them do this firsthand based on nothing other. They don't know anything else about the couple except how they fight.
- [13:17]
Leslie Parrott
And I think what's Good news for us as couples, it's not how frequently you fight. Every couple has their own style there, and it's not even what we fight about. And that's different for every couple. Those did not turn out to be significant things, but what they discovered. There are four things, elements in our conflict, in the way we fight, that if we. If we have these, they are very destructive to our relationship.
- [13:37]
Les Parrott
They call them the four red flags, or actually, Dr. Gottman calls them the four horsemen of the Apocalypse.
- [13:44]
Leslie Parrott
That's a powerful picture.
- [13:45]
Les Parrott
These are four things that kind of usher in doom for a marriage relationship. If he sees these in a marriage, then that's what he bases his prediction on. Would you like to know what they are? All in favor say aye. Number one.
- [13:59]
Leslie Parrott
The first horsemen of the Apocalypse is criticism, just simply criticism. You know, Les said we had one of our fights right before we were speaking at a marriage seminar, and I happened to be about 30 minutes late. Now, you know, you wouldn't think we had a genuine marriage if he wasn't going to complain if I'm 30 minutes late when we're speaking at a marriage seminar. And so what do you do in those moments, you know, and it's so easy to criticize. If I walk in the door and he says, where have you been? You always make us. That is a critical comment right there. That's a destructive thing to your marriage.
- [14:32]
Les Parrott
By the way, he found something very interesting. I think it's very good news for a lot of us. And that is there's a big difference between criticism and complaining. In fact, here's the good news. They discovered in this research lab that complaining is actually good for a marriage.
- [14:47]
Leslie Parrott
I love that.
- [14:47]
Les Parrott
Let me say that again. Complaining is actually good for a marriage. Isn't that good, Good news for all of us whiners. What is the difference? Well, it's very subtle. The difference is that criticism almost always begins with you. You always make us late. Whereas complaining almost always begins with, I. I feel so frustrated when we're late to something that really matters to me. Right. So it's just a subtle difference in the way it's expressed. But they discovered it makes a big difference in how it's received.
- [15:16]
Leslie Parrott
And you can almost feel these as we talk about them. They're a progression. The second Horseman of the Apocalypse is the natural progression after you receive a criticism, and it's defensiveness, defensiveness. And, you know, you just can feel yourself just almost reflexively responding to a critical comment and you're ready to go, you know, flesk walks in the door and it's the middle of the week and it's late. He's been teaching a class till 8 o' clock at night and he's hungry and he drops his briefcase and says, how are you doing? What's for dinner? And I say, you know what, I don't know, can you hop in the car and go find us something to eat tonight? You know, and he says to me, man, I just. Tonight I just wish I could come home and have a hot meal ready. What do I say in that moment? You know, because he hasn't criticized me. But the defensiveness, I can just feel it winding up. And it's so easy for me to say something like, well, if we were ever home on the weekend like a normal couple and could shop, or I didn't have a 2 year old and have to teach or whatever it is. You know, you just feel yourself going into that reflexive, defensive response. Gottman said that always escalates an argument. It never helps bring resolve. Defensiveness is really lethal to accomplish, and.
- [16:19]
Les Parrott
It'S just a natural response. Once you've been criticized, you're gonna do that. In fact, some of us get so entrenched in that it becomes such a habit that we. It's almost like any response. I mean, it's just, have you seen my car keys? Well, I didn't, you know, I didn't take them. We just defend ourselves against anything and we, we can become what some have called jellyfish in armor. And we're so tough on the exterior, but inside we're just dying because we're so well guarded. Defensive. Criticism. Defensiveness. And the third of these red flags is contempt.
- [16:49]
Leslie Parrott
Contempt. Now, contempt is like criticism, but it's deeper and even more injurious to the relationship. Contempt is now. Not when you're just saying something like, you always make a slate, but now you're engaging in what we would call character assassination. You're assigning a negative motive to them. You always make us late because you're so irresponsible. And often it's sarcastic.
- [17:11]
Les Parrott
Oh, that's brilliant. You know, tell me what time we're supposed to meet when I'm half asleep. You know, it's that kind of tone. Sometimes the most contemptuous thing that we do is without words. Do you know what it is? Yeah, it's just the rolling of the eyes.
- [17:24]
Leslie Parrott
Right, Right.
- [17:25]
Les Parrott
You ever done that? You ever seen that on your partner's face? Oh, brother. Right? Yeah.
- [17:29]
Leslie Parrott
In fact, you know, we talked about these couples in this Love Lab. And it is so interesting. Whenever they're wired up like that and they're having a conversation, they'll just give them a project like say, oh, just talk about, you know, build a tower together. Talk about some issue that seems a little unresolved for you. And as they're talking, if one partner rolls their eyes at the other, their heart rate goes crazy. I mean, we know when we're on the receiving end of that non verbal contempt. We know when we're getting that message from our partner.
- [17:55]
Les Parrott
So criticism, defensiveness, contempt, that leads to the fourth of these, which is stonewalling. Stonewalling. Let me tell you something about stonewalling. This is the experience of, you know, you just shut down emotionally. You no longer. It's just like you're talking to a stonewall. And let me just tell you something. Men tend to get to stonewalling quicker than women do. Alright? Now also, women tend to, right.
- [18:21]
Leslie Parrott
More frequently tend to have a critical comment that they spark an argument with. So you can kind of see how cyclical our fights can be. Sometimes as couples.
- [18:29]
Les Parrott
Hey guys, you can feel this sometimes in your shoulders. It goes up into the trapezius muscles here and up through the neck, right? And you just feel like a stone wall. And you might say something like, okay, okay, what do you want me to do? I'll do it right? What do you want me to say? I'll say it. Ever done that? Raise your hand. No, you don't have to do that. Some of you did. Wow.
- [18:49]
Leslie Parrott
Boy, I like that genuineness.
- [18:50]
Les Parrott
And one guy was really proud of it. I have, I have. Is there a prize? What do I get?
- [18:55]
Leslie Parrott
And in fact, the truth is, all of us do have moments where we experience these things in our marriage. So if you're starting to identify with these, you know, four horsemen, don't get nervous yet. Because the truth is they happen. For us as couples, it's when it becomes an inevitable cycle. Anytime you guys have a disagreement, you know you're going to inevitably start with a critical comment and cycle right into this withdraw and with no resolve that you really need to start to fill the danger.
- [19:20]
Les Parrott
So don't feel too uptight if you have these from time to time. Everybody has some of these from time to time. But it's when you start with a critical comment and oh boy, here we go again, set aside the next half hour because we're going to go through these four cycles. That's when it gets dangerous and you need to get some serious intervention for that.
- [19:38]
Jim Daly
And that's where we'll have to end this first half of a really helpful presentation from doctors Les and Leslie Parrott about conflict in marriage. This is Focus on the Family, and we'll have more from the Parrots next time.
- [19:50]
John Fuller
You know, conflict is such an important topic in marriage. It's kind of the critical building block or destroyer of marriage. And we need to be able to understand it and manage it well and hopefully get to the point where, you know what? It's not going to destroy us when we have conflict. In fact, we can get through the day and deal with it, and that's a much better place to be.
- [20:13]
Jim Daly
It is. And I really appreciated what the parents shared about their successes and failures in regards to conflict in their own marriage. And, of course, they also mentioned research, which was really helpful. You know, Jim, I think every couple just needs to take advantage of this reminder right now and ask, what are those flashpoints? How do we manage those when they come up, and how can we do better? And I appreciate what you said. It can bring us together or it can really ruin the relationship. And of course, here at Focus, our preference would be that it strengthens your relationship. We're all about keeping families together and helping marriages be strong. And that's really the key reason for this presentation today.
- [20:54]
John Fuller
Well, it is, John. That's the goal. And it's interesting how our different personality types strongly influence us. We're extroverted or introverted. We're compassionate or maybe a little more justice oriented. Those are styles and types and temperaments that we're born with or that we develop very early in our childhood. And so they play into our attitudes in this regard and how we fight and how we discuss matters that are deep and emotional. You know, with Gene, I'll confess it, I can often be kind of the verbal attacker. I'm responding and trying to make the point. It's especially noticeable if I'm under stress or tired. I have started to realize that the classic that Gene and I laugh about now is the garage. And I know some of you have heard me mention this before, but I think I've gotten a lot better. But for a while, it seemed like on a daily basis almost, I'd come home from work and walk through the garage into the house. And even if I had just cleaned it over the weekend, it was already messed up. Boxes were thrown out there and, you know, just mischief, just the big collector of junk. Either a big animal ran through there or something happened. I don't know what. And I'd look at Gene and some say Something like, okay, I just cleaned it up, what happened? And I'd have this downer attitude and it was bad.
- [22:10]
Jim Daly
And she would take that and she would internalize that and say, oops, I've made a mistake here. I've done something.
- [22:16]
John Fuller
Yeah. And it feels like blame. And I get that now. And I think I'm doing a better job. It's called just buttoning your lip and getting through that. And if it needs to get cleaned up, you know what? Just do it. Get in there and do. Might be a messy house for somebody. Or it could be that dreaded question, when's dinner going to be ready? Or what are we going to E.
- [22:36]
Jim Daly
What'S for dinner is my one I've got to stop doing.
- [22:39]
John Fuller
And it could be, you know, discipline with the kids too. I mean, there's a whole host of things that couples trigger each other with. That's the point I think we're trying to make. Let me just remind you that we have caring Christian counselors here who would be very happy to talk about some of these issues with you and then if necessary, refer you to even a local counselor who can continue to work with you and help you in your marriage. And we do have the Hope Restored Intensive marriage program here at focus. It's a four day program and it's got an over 80% success rate in a post two year survey. In other words, two years after couples have gone through this four day event, their marriages, one, are still intact and two, they're doing better.
- [23:22]
Jim Daly
Yeah. Which is phenomenal given that most of the people attending have really seriously considered or already started the process of divorce.
- [23:30]
John Fuller
Here's one example from Katie.
- [23:33]
We just experienced an extreme miracle through the focus on the family resources. My husband is military and after his most recent deployment it was obvious that something was very wrong. And after about a month came out that there had been an affair while he was deployed. And when I went to your website and typed in infidelity, a whole host of resources popped up and that led me to your marriage intensives. And my husband and I attended one in February. We almost didn't make it because the day of we were supposed to leave, my husband left the house and did not want to participate and really turned his back to the Lord. And we showed up the evening of February 19th and just experienced a miraculous recovery that week. The therapists were nothing short, short of anointed. And the Lord just really showed up and honored the fact that we gave our marriage to him. And we've really just seen life changing differences in our marriage because of your organization. We know we have a ways to go, but we're doing it with the Lord's help and with help from Focus on the Family.
- [24:53]
Jim Daly
That is a remarkable story, but it's not at all unusual. We get great feedback like that every day about broken marriages that God saves through Focus on the Families. Hope restored.
- [25:05]
John Fuller
Well, we do. And it's all thanks to you, those who are donating to the ministry to help save marriages that are in crisis. And we recently completed a survey that showed that over the past year, Focus on the Family, because of you, helped over 130,000 couples resolve a major marital crisis. That's incredible.
- [25:27]
Jim Daly
That is a huge number of faltering marriages that are not just propped up, but brought back together and restored.
- [25:34]
John Fuller
It's so important. Let me encourage you. If you want to help save marriages like Katie's, please be a partner with this ministry at Focus on the Family. And the best way to help us is with a monthly pledge that keeps our budget in a good place, kind of an even keel throughout the year. It doesn't have to be a big amount. It's the consistency that really counts. And if you can make a monthly pledge of any amount today, I'd like to send you a copy of the book the parrots wrote on this subject called the Good How Conflict Can Bring youg Closer. It's an excellent, comprehensive look at what we've just been skimming through today. And if you can't make a monthly pledge, I get that. We'll send you the book for a one time donation as well.
- [26:21]
Jim Daly
Yeah, you can donate online. We'll have the link in the episode notes or you can request the book by the parrots when you call 800 the letter A in the word family. By the way, if you want to identify some of the trigger points that fuel conflict in your marriage, take our free reactive cycle assessment. You'll learn what's causing your disagreements and how to navigate those challenges and build a stronger relationship. Again, that's free and the link is in the notes. By the way, if you enjoyed today's program, please tell a friend to tune in next time as the parrots share their vision of a great relationship and how you can get there.
- [26:58]
Les Parrott
And that's our prayer for you that you would enjoy the depth of genuine relationship in your marriage and realize that many times conflict, chaos is the price you pay in order to get there and enjoy that experience.
- [27:14]
Jim Daly
On behalf of the team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Take a moment, please if you would and leave a rating. About this show, your podcast app that really helps spread the word for people to find the show and all this great content and then share this episode with a friend. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [27:42]
Gene
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