← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:02]
Dr. Henry Cloud
And we begin to trust when we begin to feel like an experience. The other person has got my interests in their mind and heart as well as their own.
- [00:16]
Jim Daly
That's Dr. Henry Cloud sharing about the importance of trust in all of our relationships. Trust between spouses, business partners, teammates. And we're going to be talking about trust today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.
- [00:32]
John Fuller
Trust is an unusual thing. It's like you give it until you can't. When it's violated, you kind of take it back. I'm sure everybody has a different approach. It's not something you wake up to every morning, go, okay, who can I trust today? Maybe unless you're in a business situation or maybe your marriage is in trouble or something like that, then trust becomes a neon sign and you're worried about it. But it's so critical to think through the importance of trust. I think everyone's been the victim of trusting somebody that broke that trust. It might have been a friend or again, a spouse or something like that. We want to talk about that. And if you do a word search in Scripture, trust comes up a lot. You know, certainly love does. But think of Proverbs 3. 5. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. That's one of my favorite, actually. But right there, it's telling us to trust the Lord. Sometimes we struggle with that, given our circumstances, but the Lord is saying, no, no, keep trusting me. I'm trustworthy. Right. And it will be a great discussion today with one of our best and favorite guests.
- [01:40]
Jim Daly
Dr. Henry Cloud has been here a number of times. He's a clinical psychologist, and a lot of his time is spent with businesses, helping improve culture and performance. He's a public speaker about a variety of topics. He's authored a number of books, approaching 50, I think. Wow. And he and his wife Tori live in Nashville and they have two adult daughters.
- [02:02]
John Fuller
Everybody's moving to Nash. Have you noticed?
- [02:04]
Jim Daly
It is a popular spot.
- [02:05]
John Fuller
That's funny. Dr. Cloud, how are you? And welcome back.
- [02:09]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Very well. Thanks for having me. It's always good to be with you guys.
- [02:12]
John Fuller
Well, you heard that. Little open there. Henry, do you agree that people are afraid to trust because it could entail a lot of risk?
- [02:20]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, that goes without saying. I was thinking when you were talking about we don't wake up in the morning thinking about it, but actually, the way that God has wired our systems, the number one question that your entire being is asking 24, seven is, am I safe.
- [02:40]
John Fuller
That's interesting.
- [02:41]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Yeah, you're wired for that. In other words, now, for the last minute, you know you've been breathing. Right?
- [02:48]
John Fuller
Right.
- [02:48]
Dr. Henry Cloud
But you weren't thinking about it.
- [02:49]
John Fuller
Correct.
- [02:50]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Because your system has run the algorithm and has hit the green light for the air is okay to breathe. So you can be careless. So you're just breathing until something comes up like a toxic fume, and all of a sudden you hit pause. Well, it's easy to see in the physical world, but in the relational world and the business world, there's an algorithm that we have to be just as diligent about, knowing that all the boxes are checked before we hit green.
- [03:21]
John Fuller
That's really interesting. What a great metaphor to think about the aroma of lack of trust. What you smell.
- [03:29]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Yeah. And how many times do you hear people, you know, had them, something doesn't smell right here. And they'll use those words without saying it. And it's so interesting. If you go to, like the book of Hebrews says that solid food. Now think about what's solid food. Marriage, business, raising teenagers. That's solid food. We don't give that to children. Solid food is for the mature who, through practice, have had their senses trained to discern good from evil. So it takes a lot of experience and development because everybody's had the experience of, I trusted that person and then this happened. But then they rewind the tape and they go, there were some signs that I either ignored or excused or let them go by. And the algorithm is right there in front of us. A lot of the times now, sometimes good people get fooled. Yeah.
- [04:25]
John Fuller
What a great banner for the discussion today. And next time, how to develop your senses so that you are discerning good and evil. I mean, that's great. Let's move into it. Trust, you say, is more than a feeling, or is it a feeling? Differentiate for me what trust actually is.
- [04:42]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, trust as a. Let's get technical here. Trust is a construction. It's a principle. Right.
- [04:49]
John Fuller
So it's not an emotion.
- [04:50]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, it's not an emotion. And emotions can be built and result and drive trust in either direction.
- [05:00]
John Fuller
Yeah. You're positive or negative.
- [05:01]
Dr. Henry Cloud
A lot of people fall in love and next week get married because the trust hormones that God wired into you have gotten triggered and you go on a drug trip.
- [05:13]
John Fuller
And one out of four of those marriages will last.
- [05:15]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Yeah, on a good day. Right. So certainly emotions are involved, but that gets into the senses. And sometimes our trust muscle can be either ill trained, naive, or broken. And so many times people can be with a really trustworthy person and yet having the emotion of fear because of trauma they've had or where. And the spouse says, you could tell me, why don't you trust me? And it's really the trust muscle that's broken. It's not that the other person lacks trustworthiness. So that's why I thought it was really important to, because I use this with people in companies all the time. Let's look at the algorithm that the science tells us and the Bible tells us. These are the components that we need to make sure we know are there before we engage in deeper and deeper levels of trust.
- [06:08]
John Fuller
So getting into trust. In the book on trust, I'm interested in a story you tell about helping a CEO and a chairman of the board. I think they had some conflict. And you said the book is filled with illustrations and examples of marriage issues and business partnership issues, because that's where these.
- [06:26]
Dr. Henry Cloud
And even parenting.
- [06:27]
John Fuller
And parenting, where trust is a big issue. Yeah. So in that context, what's that story and how did the situation play out? What was the resolution?
- [06:36]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, it was a big global entity that everybody would know the name of and they were at a stalemate with the chairman and the CEO. And the board was divided, half of them with the chairman, half with the CEO. And it really could have blown up, but you would have read about it and hundreds of thousands of lives would have been affected and all of this. And so we got the big weekend, hole up in a hotel and solve this dilemma. And so I'm facilitating the, the meeting and I come in and say, look, I want to start with, let's just start with some things that aren't disputable. Let's make sure we all start with the same set of facts and want to hear from the chairman and the CEO. And so the chairman starts to talk and not too long into it, you know, the CEOs kind of coming back and negating some things. And I could see it wasn't helpful the way that he interacted with him. And so after about 10 minutes, the chairman of the board sits up, closes his book, his portfolio, looks at the board and says, I'm done here, you guys can have it. Good luck. Just like, just like. And everybody, everybody knew what that meant. I mean, it would have been awful. So he starts to get up and walk out of the boardroom. I didn't know what to do. I mean, we're 15 minutes into a two day retreat and it's over and.
- [08:07]
John Fuller
They'Ve brought you in to fix it.
- [08:08]
Dr. Henry Cloud
And they brought me in to fix it, right? So I didn't know what to do. I don't know what possessed me. But I got up out of my chair, I ran in front of him and sat down in front of the door, and I said to him, look, you can walk out that door, but if you do, you will have set into motion a chain of events that have huge consequences and can't be undone. So I want you to do me a favor. Looks at him and says, what? I said, I just want you to sit down for a minute on the floor. And the guy looks at me like this is a big, powerful figure, right? Looks at me. I guess when a crazy person tells you to do something, you do it, right? So he sits down on the floor, and I looked at him and I said, just tell me something. What's it like for you when he does what he was doing right there? And he paused for a second, he looks at me and he says, all right, I'll tell you. And he started to speak, and his lip, his chin starts to quiver. And he was kind of breaking up, and he was starting to hold back some tears. And so we keep talking a little bit, and then I see this movement from the table. It was the CEO who got up. He comes over, he sits down next to him. He reaches out, he puts his arm on his shoulder, and he says, I am so sorry. I never knew I made you feel that way. I would never want you to feel that way. I said, hold on a second. I said to the board, can you guys just give us the room? We'll call you back in. We sat there for about an hour, hour and a half. Those two guys went back into the foyer at the end of that and said to the board, okay, you can come back in now. I think we can work this out. Now. If you roll the clock backwards, the chairman was the one that recruited the CEO. There was so much trust right at the beginning, and the board, but it had broken down and it took. I mean, I worked with him for quite a while, you know, after that. And, you know, it's not done in a minute, but it started because what he actually did that he didn't realize he was doing was he did the very first element of the algorithm of trust. He stopped talking and illustrated to the chairman, now I understand.
- [10:39]
John Fuller
Well, it's interesting how all these principles apply to so many situations. To your marriage, to your business associates or your work associates, to your kids. Trust fuels life, right? All of it that's in there.
- [10:53]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Let me Give you a quick story. I'm sitting on a plane when I was writing the book, and I'm doing research on trust. And the guy next to me says, what are you doing? I said, well, I'm researching trust. He goes, oh, well, I don't trust anybody.
- [11:07]
John Fuller
That's the question I was going to ask you.
- [11:09]
Dr. Henry Cloud
This is the story. He said, I don't trust anybody. I said, really? He says, no. I learned a long time ago I can only trust myself. You can't trust people. I learned that you can't trust them. They'll let you down. I only trust myself, like, well, I'm a psychologist and you're crazy. It's like, well, what do you mean? I said. I said, of course you trust. He said, no, I don't. I said, dude, look out the window. You're at 40,000ft. Did you get yourself up here?
- [11:38]
John Fuller
Yeah, right.
- [11:39]
Dr. Henry Cloud
You trusted something. You trust a couple people in that cockpit. You'd never. How do you know the guy that filled up the plane didn't put chocolate milk in the tank? You trusted. When you drove to the airport, you trusted people on the other side of the road stay in their lane. You can't do life without trust. But if I heard your story, which I'd like to, I bet there have been some instances where in deeper heart ways you've been hurt and you stop trusting in those ways. So I want to hear your story. And you could see it, and how it had limited his life, broken relationships, all of that. So we can't do anything without trust.
- [12:18]
John Fuller
Henry, you've laid out five essentials of trust, and I want to kind of unpack those with you. So the first is this idea of understanding. So how does understanding lead or take away from trust?
- [12:33]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, it actually is the foundation. You know, it's very important for an infant to trust its mother. Right. When they're born.
- [12:40]
John Fuller
And those bonds are occurring naturally.
- [12:41]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Right.
- [12:42]
John Fuller
Like you said earlier, you don't even think about it.
- [12:44]
Dr. Henry Cloud
They are occurring naturally if the mother is attuned.
- [12:49]
John Fuller
Okay, Right. So that healthiness, it's a dyad.
- [12:52]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Yeah. And so what you see is what happens. The baby's upstairs and they're crying, and what does the mother do? Oh, that's okay. I got you. And the tone and looking him in the eye. And gradually the infant learns what David said in the Psalms, God, you taught me to trust you at my mother's breast. That that's where it begins. We have to learn to trust in life, to trust God or trust other people. And so it begins with that basic sense of understand. Now, later, we put words to that, and we call it deep listening or empathy. And what you're doing is you're looking somebody in the eye. You're present with them, you're emotionally present. They feel that. And you say, gosh, that really is sad.
- [13:37]
John Fuller
Yeah. In fact, you used the. I think it was a hostage negotiator as an example. That's fascinating.
- [13:43]
Dr. Henry Cloud
So I was talking about this in a leadership event and the dynamics of Trust and to CEOs. And Guy walks up to me afterwards, says, I'm the lead hostage negotiator for the FBI. And everything you just described is our entire training program. I said, what do you mean? He said, well, a guy's got a bomb strapped to him in a bank with 40 hostages. I'm the one that's got to go talk him out of the building. And we don't walk in and start convincing him, like, dude, this is a bad idea. This doesn't end well. You start by going in and say, hey, I'm Jim, and they sent me in here to talk to you, so tell me your name. And we get his name, and then we say, so how did we get here today? Tell me what's been going on. We just listen. We keep pulling more and more. And the more that that empathic listening is happening. What they don't know, the hostage guy doesn't know, is his system is starting to let down a little bit because he's initially feeling, I'm safe to at least talk about it.
- [14:50]
John Fuller
Yeah.
- [14:51]
Dr. Henry Cloud
And so gradually, the heart opens up. We're wired this way. So that's the first one, but obviously. And Jim, how many times do you see this in leadership? Somebody's trying to sell their team and convince the customer. You know, leaders are persuasive. Sometimes parents can try to teach a kid why this is right and this is wrong, which we need to do, but nobody's listening until you feel like they understand them first.
- [15:17]
John Fuller
Interesting. Yeah.
- [15:18]
Dr. Henry Cloud
And in marriage, it's so important for each one to feel like they're safe. I can talk about my side of it and the equation without instantly getting negated or may say, well, that's not true, or, I didn't do that, or they kind of feel heard first. Now we're going to get to finding reality later, but you're not going to find reality until you're both on the same side of the table and the problem's over there.
- [15:43]
John Fuller
Okay, so that's understanding your second of the five is motive.
- [15:48]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Motive.
- [15:49]
John Fuller
This is starting to sound like a negotiation hostage. So how does motive fit into that?
- [15:54]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, we can. You know, even thieves and predators show up and try to build empathy and connection with somebody to get them right. It's a tool. It's a tool. But the motive behind that is for themselves. And we begin to trust when we begin to feel like an experience. The other person has got my interests in their mind and heart as well as their own. Right before I wrote the book, I had spine surgery and two knee replacements. And it was an awful three years. But when I was choosing my first knee surgeon, everybody says, you gotta go to the guy. He's the one, right? And so I go to this guy, and he comes in, Dr. So and so, and puts the MRI and the X ray up, and he goes, oh, yeah, you need a total knee replacement. I mean, he had been in there less than a minute. He looks at it. You need a total knee replacement. And I said, really? He goes, yeah. And by the way, this is what I do. Anybody tells you differently, they're wrong. He said, I understand what's going on here, so I want you to schedule it with the front desk, and it's good to meet you. And he starts walking. I said, doc, wait, hold on a second. He said, what? I said, you haven't even. You just looked at the. That's it. That's the whole thing?
- [17:15]
John Fuller
Didn't move your knee around or anything?
- [17:16]
Dr. Henry Cloud
He goes, I understand what's going on. He walked. Well, I'm not hitting green yet, right? I don't feel like.
- [17:21]
John Fuller
Well, he's hitting green.
- [17:22]
Dr. Henry Cloud
He's hitting green.
- [17:24]
John Fuller
It's that new Porsche he wanted, right?
- [17:26]
Dr. Henry Cloud
And so I go to another one, and he was very different. And he started asking me, so where's the pain? When did this happen? Where does the pain start? And I got a feeling where he's really, you know, he's understanding me. So I like this guy better. So I go to a third one. He was empathic and a listener, too. But after about five minutes, he goes, hold on a second. He says, guys, come in here. And he had three residents that he was training. And he brings them in the room. He says, so, see this knee? And he turns to me and he's talking to the guy. This is exactly this guy, this knee right here. This is what's going in our research project, because this data is exactly what we're presenting. It'll help, you know, make the devices, and we need to get the. And all of a sudden, I'm realizing I'M just an object of research for him, huh? This is about his motive is. It's all about his paper and his research and all of that. So I go back to the second guy and say, I think, you know, I'd like to talk further. And he instantly goes. He goes, yeah. He said, I really hope to help you. He said, because he says, you're a competitive golfer. I've read about you. We gotta get you back on the golf course. And you got two daughters, you got a lot of years. You're gonna be traveling. You gotta get this thing fixed so you can. All of a sudden, he. I can feel it. He more about me being able to do his stuff than getting paid or any research. So I'm feeling like it's not only his own interest. You know, the book of Philippians says, do not merely look out for your own interests, but also the interests of others.
- [18:59]
John Fuller
No, that's good. And I was going to move to that third, which is a person's ability. And keeping that kind of the knee surgeon example, I mean, you have to weigh that empathetic attitude. But if he's the worst surgeon in the group, that's not a good thing either.
- [19:15]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Exactly. What if I go to Dr. Caring and Dr. Good Motives, Dr.
- [19:19]
John Fuller
Empathy.
- [19:20]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Yeah. And I'm Dr. Empathy. Yeah. Now I do. I want you to do my knee. And then he goes, that's great. He said, I'm so excited about doing your knee because I'm an OB GYN and I've never done a knee before. I've always wanted to do it since medical school. I wanted. Now we're hitting.
- [19:37]
John Fuller
Yeah.
- [19:37]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Oops. Oops. So the third thing that we have to make sure is there. And this gets huge in families and businesses. The third thing we have, we can trust somebody with our lives in certain contexts. You see this in churches all the time. I've seen so many church situations or nonprofits where somebody's got a vision and they bring a board around and that believes in the vision and is supportive of them and all this, and that's great. But then five years later, you find yourself in a big. You're buying a property or you got a legal issue. That board doesn't know anything about that. They've never been there. The board wasn't selected for expertise. Expertise as well.
- [20:24]
John Fuller
Hey, character plays a role in developing trust. That seems obvious, but you mention it in the book, so it must have some nuance to it.
- [20:32]
Dr. Henry Cloud
It's so important that we understand the biblical nuance of this as well as the research. A lot of times you ask people, do you trust somebody? And they go, yeah, he never lie, cheat or steal. Well, you're talking about moral aspects of character which are foundational. You go to 2 Peter 1, for example. It says, add to your faith, moral excellence, but doesn't stop there. Then it goes into all of these other things. Perseverance, self control, mutual affection, kindness. So what if Dr. Good Motive, Empathy, caring, all that stuff says, okay, we're going to do your knee replacement? This is a teaching hospital. If you want to watch one, you can look through the window and we'll do one in a half hour. I go in there and what if I had been watching him and 10 minutes into the surgery, all of a sudden he goes, oh no, he's bleeding.
- [21:23]
John Fuller
Somebody do something.
- [21:24]
Dr. Henry Cloud
The patient's bleeding. Well, now he just flunked the character piece. Because in the Bible and in life, character has to do with somebody's total makeup. And are they glued together in a way for the context that I'm trusting them in, that they've got the emotional intelligence, the perseverance, the emotional regulation or whatever that's going to be needed to trust them with that situation?
- [21:50]
John Fuller
Yeah, it's huge. It's good and it's self evident. Of course, there's bad character that tends to show up as well. And you got to manage what to do with that in your marriage or in your business relationships, etc. So that's the four. The fifth is track record.
- [22:05]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Track record. What happened the last time?
- [22:09]
John Fuller
Wait a minute. Because the scripture says your sins are forgiven. I won't remember them. So how does track record fit in with God's great forgiveness?
- [22:17]
Dr. Henry Cloud
I won't remember them. And you'll be born again. So now you're an infant. So I'm not going to turn over the keys to the kingdom to an infant. Right. And what you see in the scriptures is that trust is always built on incremental performance. Done well, you know, you've got kids, they handle one situation well, then you let them go to another one or you let them go to a bigger one. All right, you got the parable of the talents. For example, you're faithful and little. You'll be given more. If you're not, we'll take those keys away from you. And it's very, you know, Paul says, don't lay hands on any man too quickly. And so the diligence throughout the scriptures, God always tells us to trust more when you've seen more of what's trustworthy. And in Trusting him. What does he always do? Look at my track record. You were slaves in Egypt and I rescued you with a mighty hand. Every time he asks us, he says, look at what I've done. Because it's not going to look like I'm doing anything right now. And you got to remember, I'm going to pull you through this. That's what God does. And we can bring him anything. And he's not going to condemn us. He may discipline us, but it's always going to be led with that tree of the algorithm of trust. He's going to understand. He's going to listen, come, let us reason together. He's going to understand the driving forces. Whatever he does is going to be with good motives, where it's for us. And his character is dependable and his abilities are dependable. He asks us to remember that. Remember the track record.
- [24:08]
John Fuller
This is good. And we're getting rolling on this one. But those concepts are so true. I'm just thinking of, take a concept.
- [24:15]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Of an adulterous affair in a marriage, okay. There's a breach in trust. They're trying to put it together. You would never want somebody to say, oh, certainly you want them to forgive. Right. If we're going to go forward, you got to forgive. Forgiveness is free, but trust is earned.
- [24:38]
John Fuller
Right? So true.
- [24:39]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Now we're going to start watching incremental steps, changes that are happening, how the relationships work and competencies and skills that are being built along the way. And maybe in the first. However long. She's tracking his phone.
- [24:57]
John Fuller
Right.
- [24:57]
Dr. Henry Cloud
But I know a lot of couples where we put it back together and, you know, however long later, they're like, I don't need to watch him. He's fine.
- [25:07]
John Fuller
Right? And we're going to pick that up. We'll pick that up next time and talk more about how that trust is earned and regained and those kinds of concepts. But this has been a great first day, talking about trust and how you navigate it, how you earn it and how you give it. And what a great book. Dr. Henry Cloud. Trust. Knowing when to give it, when to withhold it, how to earn it, and how to fix it when it gets broken. And this is the kickoff. We're going to come back and learn some more concepts next time. Can we do that?
- [25:36]
Dr. Henry Cloud
It's been great to be here.
- [25:38]
John Fuller
You'll be back.
- [25:38]
Dr. Henry Cloud
So much fun.
- [25:39]
John Fuller
We're going to chain you to the chair there.
- [25:41]
Dr. Henry Cloud
I trust you to keep me here.
- [25:43]
John Fuller
Okay, good. Yeah.
- [25:44]
Jim Daly
Well, we have the book here at the ministry and it'll be Yours for a generous donation of any amount to help support Focus on the Family. And we're going to encourage you to join the pledge team, the Sustainers who donate every month if you can. That really helps kind of even things out for us and it's a really critical aspect of being a financial supporter of Focus. If you're not in a spot to do that, please know that a one time gift is deeply appreciated. Either way, donate today and we'll send that book to you as our way of saying thanks for your support. Our phone number is 800, the letter A in the Word Family and you can find all the details in the show notes. And along the way, if we've touched on something that has kind of struck a nerve and you want to reach out and talk to somebody, but you don't have anybody within your spirit that you can trust, please know that we have caring Christian counselors here and it's a privilege of ours to be able to recommend that you make a phone call to us and we'll schedule a time for one of those counselors to give you a call back. They'll begin the process of getting you toward a better place and probably be able to recommend some resources and maybe even a counselor in your own area. Again, Our number is 800, the letter A in the Word Family. Well, thank you for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back when we continue the conversation with Dr. Cloud and once again help you and your family thrive. Improvement Christ.
- [27:15]
John Fuller
If the fights with your spouse have become unbearable, if you feel like you can't take it anymore, there's still hope.
- [27:22]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Hope Restored Marriage Intensives have helped thousands of couples like yours.
- [27:27]
John Fuller
Our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face them together.
- [27:32]
Dr. Henry Cloud
Call us at 1-868-752915.
- [27:36]
John Fuller
We'll talk with you, pray with you and help you find out which program will work best. That's 1-866-875-2915.