← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:02]
Ray van der Lijn
God wants to create a community, not only because a community is a picture to the world of what God's people and God's own person are like, but God wants a community because it's difficult to stand alone.
- [00:16]
Jim Daly
Well, that's Ray van der Laonde with an important message about what it means to be a disciple of Jesus and to walk in his footsteps. Welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.
- [00:28]
John Fuller
John, people have heard me mention this, and Ray is where I got it from. Our guest today, where I talk about God's shalom and how we need to bring his shalom into this world of chaos. And it was through Ray van der Lijne's teaching that I learned that concept and applied it to my life and to what I say to others about our role as Christians. And you've heard me say it.
- [00:50]
Jim Daly
I have many times. I appreciate the insight.
- [00:52]
John Fuller
In so many areas, especially in foster care, where Gene and I gave some of our time to bring foster kids in, I think we probably we had about 15 foster kids come through our home, and that's chaos. When I look at the culture, the greatest chaos I see is in the foster system. These poor little children that parental rights have been taken from, they're just desperate for adults to show care and compassion toward them. That's the ultimate chaos in a person's life. So I do attribute that knowledge of scriptural truth to to Ray van der Laaan. And today we're going to talk with Ray about a great new discipleship series that he has, RVL Discipleship. People always say, what does RVL stand for? Here we go. Ray van der Lijn. It's just easier to say rvl. And I love it. Gene and I had the great privilege of traveling with Ray to Israel, soaking in the experience. We walked, I think it was about 113 miles in the hot sun, but it was so worth it. And I'm looking forward to our conversation today.
- [01:57]
Jim Daly
Yeah. And a lot of what you experience there on those tours is captured in that the world may know, that series that we did with you, Ray, that has touched so many people. Folks have seen that that's really developed their understanding of the Bible lands and of the setting and context of Scripture. As you mentioned, Jim, rvl, the study is a new series that we have with Ray, Four Seasons, and it's online only through Focus on the Family. And it goes even further. It's a wonderful resource. We'll hear more about it today.
- [02:30]
John Fuller
40 yes.
- [02:31]
Jim Daly
And we want to encourage you as a listener or viewer. To learn more, stop by our website. The details are in the show notes.
- [02:38]
John Fuller
And John, let me just say, you know, we cover a lot of great material here at Focus. Marriage, parenting, how to take care of children, advocate for children, engaging the culture. I can't think of more important content than what Ray has done, and it sets the foundation for everything else. If you think about it, you've got to understand the word of God to be able to apply sound biblical truth to marriage, to your parenting, to engaging the culture. So I think, man, I would love to see this series fly out of here because more and more Christians need this great content. And with that, Ray, welcome.
- [03:15]
Ray van der Lijn
Thank you.
- [03:16]
John Fuller
I mean, I feel so strongly about it, and it is just so impactful, and it changes people's hearts. And when you change a heart, you change behavior, right?
- [03:28]
Ray van der Lijn
Amen.
- [03:29]
John Fuller
And, man, the study is so good. And let me ask you elaborate, elaborate on what this process looks like, the series and the expected outcomes as you go through and listen to it. What, as the teacher, what are you hoping to see in people when they watch it?
- [03:47]
Ray van der Lijn
You know, when I am involved in this production, it's very moving for me personally. Not just because it's an honor to be someone that focuses on the family affirms, but because this is my life's work. I've been a high school Bible teacher my entire career, 48 years. I love kids, I love students, and I've worked really hard to try and be faithful to God's word in terms of what it asks of them once they believe in Jesus and become a saved person. Now, how do I become a disciple, someone who lives out that salvation? So when I think of this material, I think my goal is threefold. Assuming they've already been challenged to believe in Jesus as their savior. We do a bit of that in here. That's not the focus of this study, but that's got to be the prior step. Believe in Jesus and you will be saved. Now the question becomes, why does God put the effort to save me or you? And I think sometimes we think, well, it's because he loves me. Well, it's true. He loves us with an everlasting love. That's unbelievable. Sometimes I think it's because God hates sin, so he wants to redeem me and restore me because of my former sinful condition. Now I can be a redeemed person, and that's very biblical. But I think we forget that God redeems human beings and has done so since the beginning because he's creating a partner who will be a fellow shalom bringer, or maybe better, the instrument of his wholeness and fullness to the world in which we live. So when I put that into practice, when I put that into my teaching practice, let me say it that way. My goal is to say to students, what is the result of believing in Jesus as your savior? Is the result that now you say, I'm going to step up by the spirit of God, the direction of the text, the encouragement of his community, the example of Jesus. And I want to show the world what it looks like when a redeemed person puts into practice what God has empowered us to do. And so my prayer is that once students have made that decision to say, I'm going to follow Jesus, now they begin to live it out in a way that the world can say, you know, when I see that person, that family, that community, I catch a glimpse of what God is like, what Jesus was like, and what shalom is like, God's wholeness and fullness, because I see it there. And I think that's why it's such an affirmation to me to be part of focus on the family, small part, but apart. Because the reason God wants godly families is not just because it brings happiness and fullness, not just because it honors him, but God wants godly families because now the world catches a glimpse in that family of what God is like.
- [07:01]
John Fuller
Yeah. With that, let me ask you this. So many believers may know this, but you really have thought about this. Everything about Jesus was purposeful. He came to give us purpose. And again, when you look at culture, there's so much about identity and knowing who you are, and then the purpose behind that. And so many young people are finding their identity in outward appearance, color of our skin, whatever it might be, our sexual orientation. Christians, and the Lord more specifically, is saying, no, your identity is in me. You are made in my image, and I have a purpose for your life. And we need to convince people your identity is not in these traits that come and go potentially, but they're in the depth of your relationship with God, your creator.
- [07:53]
Ray van der Lijn
You know, that's really well said. I love how you laid that out. I say to students, I get asked in the Jewish world fairly often a question that goes like this. We understand whether they believe it or not. We understand why Christians say, you need to have faith in Jesus because in your belief, he is the substitute sacrifice that pays for sin. And so if I believe in him, then I'm restored to relationship with God. But then they ask this question, so they say, so I know why Jesus died because he is the sacrifice, the lamb in your belief. But their question is, why did Jesus live? Why not just come into the world, be here for a week, give the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord's Prayer, a couple other key teachings, Go to Jerusalem, get arrested, die, ascend, and have it all over with in a week. Why did he live all those years, be a baby?
- [08:56]
John Fuller
Why was he born to a virgin?
- [08:58]
Ray van der Lijn
Why three years of discipleship training? And I think the answer to that is because Jesus has a Jesus is part of God's great story of restoring wholeness to a broken world. And he's decided to do that through human partners sometimes, at least. And so Jesus lived to say, this is how you have to live. This is who you have to become if you're going to be a part of God's great redemptive story. And what I try to encourage kids to see is we all look for meaning in lives, in our lives. We find it as grown up sometimes in our possessions, in our hobbies. Not that there's anything wrong with any of that by itself. Jesus wants our identity to be I'm a part of God's great plan to bring wholeness to a broken world. I may do a very tiny little piece, but my family, me, the Christian community, I'm part of, I'm a part of that great story. So all of a sudden, every single thing in life has potentially eternal application, even the most trivial things. You've heard me tell the story of Michelangelo, who went out interviewing workers to work on St. Peter's Cathedral. And he wanted them to be committed to doing it because it was God's house. So he disguised himself and would interview people. And he was discouraged because so many people were interested in the paycheck or the perks. And then he met an elderly man who was mixing cement by a cathedral that was being built, just sweating back and forth one way and then the other, Third World style. And Michelangelo said to him, what are you doing? And the man looked at him and said, what do you mean, what am I doing? I'm building a cathedral. And somehow that man saw, in the most trivial of activities, the most mundane thing, mixing a batch of cement. He saw eternal meaning of building something much bigger. And if we could catch the vision that whether I'm a schoolteacher or an announcer or a director of a ministry or any other thing, you think of a mom, a dad, a friend, a neighbor, no matter what it is, if I see that as part of God's plan, To bring wholeness to broken world. I become part of the cathedral, part of building the cathedral. Even the ordinary and the mundane.
- [11:30]
John Fuller
Yeah. Which is so good. That opening when we talked about chaos and shalom, I mean, I think in your teaching you connect that to Egypt and the oppression of the Jewish people when they were slaves in Egypt and then coming out of Egypt. Describe that concept of chaos. And I love the way you say that. I'll let you say it, even though I think I can repeat it verbatim. And then you know how Jesus represents shalom, God's peace in this sin filled, chaotic world.
- [12:01]
Ray van der Lijn
Amen. You know, I start the course with a study of creation. And I'm a believer that God is the creator of all things. But if you look at how the creation story is framed, it starts with formless and emptiness. Tohu vavohu in Hebrew, which means absolute chaos. God's spirit hovers and he speaks. And out of that chaos comes magnificent order. The sin of our ancestors. Adam and Eve bring that order back and it slowly descends back into chaos. And then God came and said, I'm going to restore shalom to all things and I want you to be my partners in this mission. So he starts with the people of Israel. Now where are they? They're in chaos. They're slaves in Egypt. And I say to students, why does God allow his people to be in pain? Why would he allow them to go through that awful 400 years of brutal slavery? Well, the text doesn't say so. I don't have an answer. But I can tell you this more than a dozen times. In Deuteronomy, God says, be aware of the chaos of others. Don't cut the corners of your field. Don't take advantage of the widow. Don't treat the slave unjustly. Don't forget the poor among you or the foreigner. Why? Remember, you were slaves. So their suffering, I don't know why God allowed it, but did have a purpose. It made them sensitive to the suffering of others. And because of their having been through that, they were called to be sensitive to others who faced it. And we've all done that. We've all gone through life and had these things that define us. I wrestled with some physical issues, some disease, and that makes me sensitive to others who share that particular physical condition. So God allowed his people to be in chaos in part because his purpose was to sensitize them to the suffering of others. In fact, in the prophets he makes the point, if you're not sensitive to the suffering of others, I'm going to bring you back to your suffering. And then there's a second part to it. When you go to Egypt, you should ask your guide. They usually don't take you to these because they're so small and insignificant. But you'll notice in some of the temples, the shrine of the hearing ear. Because most of the Egyptian gods were thought to be deaf, they didn't listen.
- [14:41]
John Fuller
That's interesting.
- [14:42]
Ray van der Lijn
They don't hear us, but there was a God who would hear and then bring your request to make sure the God got the point to respond. Well, the Exodus story starts like this. God heard the cry of his spirit. Our God hears. He doesn't need a chapel of the hearing ear. He hears, but then he talks about how his people need to hear the cry of those who suffer. The cry of the widow. If you make the widow cry out, he says, your wives will be widows, your children will be orphans. You've got to have ears not only to hear every word that comes from me, but you need to have ears that are tuned to the cries of the people around you. Just like my ears heard your cry. There's an interesting word that's used in Hebrew. It's tseakah for cry. Tzeika is this pain filled scream. Not even with words, just a scream of despair, Pleading for help because of my suffering caused by oppression. And when God hears Zakah, he acts with great power. Imagine what he did to the Egyptian army at the Red Sea because they caused the Israelites to cry out. And that's what God asks of me. So he chooses Moses. And if you look at two of the first stories of Moses, he is a man in the palace and he sees an Egyptian being beaten and he acts to defend him. He hears the cry of that slave and then he has to run for his life. And he's in the desert and there's some women who are being driven away, away from the water source. And he hears their cry and he responds to it. So Moses was a man with God's ears. Not only because he heard the words of God, but because he could hear the cries of those around us. So I say to my students, go home and watch the news tonight. Tell me the cry. What do you hear? Is it the person in the fires that ravaged the west who's lost everything? Is it the person in the Middle east who's suffering because of terrorism and all of the awful things that happen? Can you hear it? God is looking for a people of the ears who not only hear his words, but hear his cry. It's interesting to me. Several times in his life, Jesus hears the cry. He hears the cry of the demon possessed man with a legion of demons. He hears the cry of the Phoenician woman. The only cry in the Bible God doesn't respond to is the one of Jesus on the cross. Wow, man.
- [17:31]
John Fuller
I think people are getting a sense why we so enjoy the content.
- [17:34]
Ray van der Lijn
And this is good.
- [17:35]
Jim Daly
It's always so enriching just to be here. Talking with Ray van der Lijn on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Such great insights into the scriptures. So many application points for those of us who want to follow Jesus, who want to be more like him. And you can fill your cup on a regular basis and be inspired by Ray in RVL Discipleship. The study, it's four seasons, it's online only. It's available through Focus on the Family exclusively. And we've got details for you in the show notes.
- [18:09]
John Fuller
Ray, let me ask you this concept of two kingdoms. You speak to that. What are the gods of our day that create at least two kingdoms? God's kingdom, obviously, but then our fleshly, worldly kingdom, and then the enemy's kingdom. Satan is real. He's spoken about in the word of God. We tend to shy away from that. But if we're in a spiritual dimension as well as a physical dimension where we could see, hear, like you were talking about, we've got to, as Christians, recognize that and know that the enemy is there, like John 10:10 says, to steal, kill and destroy. Who? Us. And he hates humanity because God chose to put his image in us. That really is why he left heaven. Right. That was the rebellion. Why them, Lord, not me? Right. So in that context, describe the two kingdoms and how we need to be aware of those.
- [19:03]
Ray van der Lijn
Let me approach that the way I do in class. So let's go back to Egypt and those two kingdoms. I asked them, who was God directing his anger at in the ten plagues? Well, Israel, because they were not following him. No, no. He says, I want Israel to know, to experience that I'm God. Okay. The Egyptians, they'll say, nope. He says, I want the Egyptians to know that I am God. They're welcome to join me too. Was Pharaoh? No, I want Pharaoh to know, so who are you attacking? And then God said, I will bring judgment on the gods of Egypt. So the contest in Egypt isn't Israel and the Egyptians or even Pharaoh and Moses, though they are protagonists. The conflict is between God and the gods. Now, who are the gods? Well, if you look in the Exodus, Story the gods have demonic powers behind them. In Deuteronomy it says, sacrifices offered to idols are offered to demons. Psalm 106 will say the same thing. Paul says in First Corinthians 10, sacrifices offered to idols are offered to demons. Behind the pagan gods of the nations are demonic powers. And God said, that's who I'm after. He's doing this with his finger. This God is bringing the plagues. He's defeating the Egyptians. He will divide and then return the Red Sea with that finger. Imagine if he put his whole arm into it. What if he put his whole body. He's doing this with his finger. So the Jews say, the kingdom of God emerges when God acts with his finger to break the power of the demonic forces. So Jesus says, satan's kingdom. Listen, I drive out demons with the finger of God and he alludes to that same Egypt moment. Now to your question. In Egypt, it was more concrete reality. Who were the gods that God was attacking? Well, there are those idols behind which are demonic powers. Who are the gods of our culture.
- [21:26]
John Fuller
Yeah.
- [21:26]
Ray van der Lijn
Today's time, I would say in today's time, in my opinion, the greatest God, evil gods that exist are our own self identities because idols are our creation. So we want to be the Lord of our lives. And I think so often that where Satan's power is greatly magnified and seen in our culture is where he convinces people to do what you want, what you think you need, what you think is desirable, and I become the God of my life. At least I try to become that.
- [22:07]
John Fuller
Yeah, absolutely.
- [22:09]
Ray van der Lijn
But if I hear the word of God and obey what Jesus taught, interpreted and taught, then in a sense I'm saying I'm doing the will of God and the kingdom of heaven is advancing.
- [22:21]
John Fuller
Yeah. You know, Ray, so often applying these ancient observations in truth become a little difficult for the average Christian. You know, we're trying to make those things relevant. That's actually a good way to pray. Lord, show me how it's relevant to today. I believe he will. But in that context, can you give us a little bit of an insight? One example would be community. In one of the lessons you talk about that, the need for community, I'm thinking of Rosaria Butterfield, who is a former Syracuse University professor. She was a lesbian, very outspoken against Christians. She's been on the Focus Broadcast a number of times now because a pastor and his wife invited her to their home to do a Bible study. And lo and behold, as a very smart, very smart professor, she said, I can't refute this And I need to become a Christian. And I'm thinking of that in that context. One of the things that she said is that while in the gay community, she could fly into Denver as an example, Philadelphia, Chicago. She knew five to seven homes. She could come and flop down and there would be community and a place to be with people. And she said, you know what? I don't find that in the Christian community. She's actually written a book about it now. But speak to this concept of the need for community and God's desire for us and how the culture kind of strips us of that.
- [23:49]
Ray van der Lijn
Today I stress in the discipleship class how there are these threads that weave through the story right from the very beginning, and you find them all the way through. And I show them a number of places in the story where God is working through community. God wants to create a community. Not only because a community is a picture to the world of what God's people and God's own person are like, but God wants a community because it's difficult to stand alone. I need you to hold me accountable, to encourage me, to cheer me on, to be the example in certain situations. And you need me for those same kind of things. Maybe in other situations. Then we come to the time of Jesus. Discipleship was practiced in community. It was not individual students doing their thing with the rabbi. It was communities of people. In fact, they called each other chaver. H A V E R. In English, that's a Hebrew word, chaver. Chaver comes from Psalm 119:63, where it says, I am a close companion, chaver friend, a dedicated friend to everyone who is in awe of you and who obeys your commands. Jesus says to his disciples, you are my friends. And we think, oh, how nice. What a friend I have in Jesus. Well, there's truth in that. That's not what they heard. They heard since you and I share a common passion in the fear of God and the commitment to obey him. He says, you are my friends if. If you do what I command you. And discipleship doesn't work very well alone. You don't see. Jesus even sends out disciples two by two in the Gospel of Luke because we need each other to cheer each other on, to hold each other accountable, to be the example of how to follow Jesus or follow the Rabbi in Jesus, case in whatever we do.
- [25:55]
John Fuller
Yeah, Ray, this again is so good. It is. You know, I could just sit and talk to you for probably eight hours here. I mean, seriously, it just rolls off. And there's so many applications to our lives in every direction and then bringing it back to what, you know, so many. The ancient word, but the ancient word applies to. So don't neglect knowing it. And man, this is a great opportunity for people to know the word of God and know what it is. We should be pursuing the purpose that we're given. And you know, the RVL Discipleship Study series is available. Get it today. I mean, go to the website.
- [26:35]
Jim Daly
Go to the website and get it today.
- [26:36]
John Fuller
I don't know how else to say it. I'm so excited about it. Do it. We're doing it. Gene and I are doing it as a testimony to how we believe in this content. And Ray, I'm not lifting you up, but thank you for pulling it together, for doing it. This is not something that happens overnight. This is 40 years of effort on your part. And I want to acknowledge that and just say thank you for your determination. I'm sure that was not always easy. And I just, man, thank you so much.
- [27:07]
Ray van der Lijn
Thank you. God bless you.
- [27:08]
Jim Daly
And we want you to plug in and learn more and experience RVL discipleship. The study, it's digital only. It's only available through Focus on the Family. And the show notes have all the details, so you can start today. Well, on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today. For Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time. As we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [27:39]
Unknown Speaker
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