← Focus on the Family with Jim Daly
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- [00:01]
Jim Daly
God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit truthrising.com today. That's truthrising.com.
- [00:31]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
One of the key methods in scripture that God gives to grandparents is sharing your testimony, talking about the work of God, the glorious deeds.
- [00:39]
John Fuller
That's Dr. Josh Mulvihill and he's our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, offering encouragement to grandparents. It's a wonderful season. Josh is going to talk about how you can make the most of it. I'm John Fuller and thanks for joining us.
- [00:51]
Jim Daly
John. A few weeks ago, Jean, my wife, floored me. She said since she was 15, she wanted to be a grandmother.
- [00:59]
John Fuller
Oh my.
- [00:59]
Jim Daly
I'm like, what? We got a few paces to go in between there. But she just loves the concept. We're not grandparents yet. And the boys, neither of them are married. So we're going to do this in the right order. I hope and pray. But the idea of grandparenting that seed was put into her heart all those years ago and she's excited about it. And I'm looking forward to this discussion because I probably got to catch up, right? I'm like the caboose in Jean's grandparenting train and I've got to get that pursuit perspective. And we're going to have a great discussion with our guest today and he's done a PhD dissertation in grandparenting and.
- [01:35]
John Fuller
I think it's going to connect. This content will connect with you. We have so many grandparents that listen in and want to help their kids raise their kids in spiritual formation and having great insights. Dr. Mulvihil, as you said, did his PhD in family ministry and that dissertation on grandparenting. He served as a pastor for nearly two decades and is the founding member for for the Legacy Coalition. Josh and Jen have five children and he's written a number of books. Today we're dialing in to the one called Grandparenting, Strengthening youg Family and Passing on youn Faith. You can learn more about our guest in this resource on our website. The link is in the show notes.
- [02:16]
Jim Daly
Josh, it's great to have you with us for the first time here at Focus.
- [02:19]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Great to be here, guys.
- [02:20]
Jim Daly
Now, I'm dying to ask you this question. So working on a Ph.D. that's a lot of Work. I mean, you concentrate. There's people that do a PhD in poisonous frogs of the Brazilian jungle. How did you come up with I want to do a dissertation on grandparenting?
- [02:36]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Well, I decided I didn't want my dissertation to be a footnote, and I wanted something that would truly be helpful for a lot of people. And as I was going through coursework at Southern, kind of my eyes got open. Got open to my eyes. I was reading something and came across this grandparenting topic. And I thought, huh, I wonder what's out there on Christian grandparenting? So I went and asked my professor, Timothy Paul Jones, said, do you know, can you point me in the direction of, you know, what's out? What would be the stuff that I would read if I want to learn about this? And he said, I actually don't know. Why don't you look into it and come back and let me know? And I, you know, I expected, similar to parenting, Christian parenting, there would be, like, volumes. Yeah. Mountains. Think about. I mean, just think about how many Christian grandparents there are. There's, we guess, roughly around 30 million Christian grandparents in America alone. There's gotta be some really helpful stuff for those people. And I was shocked to see how little there was. You guys know, in the publishing world, you're never supposed to say there's nothing out there on it.
- [03:41]
Jim Daly
Yeah, there's some stuff.
- [03:43]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Yeah. There was very little, though. A handful of books.
- [03:47]
Jim Daly
Let me ask you this. So this is a common cliche that I love, that grandparents and grandchildren love each other so much because they have a common enemy, their adult children.
- [03:57]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Yeah, the parents.
- [03:58]
Jim Daly
That's probably not the best way to go into the grandparenting effort, ideally.
- [04:02]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
No, not really.
- [04:06]
Jim Daly
The study that you cited, I think in your research, it found that grandchildren say their grandparents play a significant role in their formation. Describe that study and what caught your attention.
- [04:18]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
So there was a Barna study that asked 602 teenagers, who is the most influential people in your life other than parents? Number one.
- [04:29]
Jim Daly
Parents tend to be number one. Which is amazing.
- [04:31]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Yeah. Which is great. Yeah. Congrats, parents. And, you know, if you think in your head, who would be the number two? Three, you know, down that list? Many of us think of peers or teachers, and of course, those are big, big influences. But what Barna found was that typically it's other family members. Most of the time that would be grandparents is number two. And then it goes teachers and coaches, then peers and then pastors and religious leaders. As I'm kind of trying to make sense of this Study. My interpretation is simply this. It comes down to time that individuals have with a child. And you think about all those individuals I mentioned, who has the greatest amount of time with children from birth through adulthood. Teachers are incredibly impactful, but they typically have a season, a year, a few years. And same with coaches and even pastors. I've pastored for 20 years. I still have relationships with many individuals from a long time ago. But grandparents have the opportunity to have a presence in a person's life from birth all the way to adulthood. And there's nobody else like that, usually other than parents. And so I call it potential influence because grandparents sometimes don't step into that.
- [05:54]
Jim Daly
Well, that's what I was going to ask you. I thought another research data point that you mentioned in the book is about 25, if I read it correctly, only 25% of grandparents will share the gospel with their grandchildren. These are Christian, obviously. But I was shocked by that.
- [06:12]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
I was, too.
- [06:14]
Jim Daly
I was trying to figure out. Gene and I were talking about it early this morning as I was reading the book and taking a look at the prep. But I was thinking, what would prevent a grandparent from doing that, that the adult children have said, hey, we don't want you to do that. I mean, that may be one reason. What did you find in that study?
- [06:32]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Yeah, some grandparents, some of them were making the assumption that the gospel was being communicated at a grandchild's church or home. And so they weren't needed in that way and understandable in that regard. Some didn't have the freedom to do that, were literally told by adult children, you're not allowed to have this kind of conversation. And some just did not have that priority in their life. And it didn't translate into those kinds of conversations. And so even my dad, it was interesting. My parents were super intentional parents. And he, you know, his mindset was, I'm going to be a really good Christian example. You know, I want to live a godly life. But we're going to send grandchildren home to parents to do the core work and include sharing the gospel. And, you know, grandparents have a critical component. Every grandparent listening. Take those opportunities to share the gospel with grandparents.
- [07:31]
Jim Daly
Yeah, I was going to say, let's pry into that a little bit. So I don't miss asking the question that grandparents are saying, jim, ask that question. How do you navigate that? Let's just say, okay, we as Grandma and grandpa, we want to make sure little Johnny and Mary hear the gospel. Do you go talk to your adult children and say, hey, are you guys okay with this? So you get permission or do you just move through it and make the assumption they're not getting that straightforward kind of presentation and encourage them to, yeah, go for it. Unless the kids are saying, hey, we don't want you to do that, but I'd be a sneaky grandpa.
- [08:08]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Okay. Oh, man. Yeah, but now we're into it. Now you're into it. Yeah. So in some situations, I think it's wise to have that conversation with an adult child. If there is, you know, you're truly unsure, will this have very significant ramifications. And I think if grandchildren come into your world, into your home, there's greater opportunity and freedom put out. You know, there's so many good gospel resources. Buy one, put one out on the coffee table and grandchild picks it up and read the story for me, grandma and grandpa, and boom, you've got a gospel opportunity. You can turn on music in the car. But yeah, I think in general, sharing the gospel should kind of be just a part of what is happening.
- [08:54]
Jim Daly
And I want to be careful. You know, I'll say this, knowing circumstances are unique in every family structure. And I get that. But if an adult child has that reservation, there may be something you need to see about your own approach in life that's been very aggressive or those adult children experience that as you as a parent now, you're a grandparent, they're going, man, I don't need a flamethrower. I need loving gospel expression. So first of all, look in the mirror and make sure that you can deliver that and be kind and loving and winsome in how you discuss it.
- [09:30]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
A lot of it comes back to relationship. Right? I mean, is that what you guys have experienced with your kids, like how the relationship goes? There are a lot of opportunities as a result. If there's tension there, it's all about relationship.
- [09:43]
Jim Daly
I hadn't planned on asking you this, and although it's going to sound like a political context, I don't mean it that way. But so many people today in academia particularly are saying, yeah, the nuclear family is a western built thing. It was never the way it was. When I'm reading scripture, I'm reading what you're saying. A son's son, okay, that's a grandparent. Fathers instruct your children. So is the nuclear family some kind of Western construct or is it Something that's biblical, 2, 3, 4,000 years old?
- [10:13]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Well, it's a both and right in the sense that, you know, the church thinks in terms of immediate family, parent and Child. And that certainly is God's institution in the home.
- [10:23]
Jim Daly
That's called the family.
- [10:24]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Yeah, the family. But there's also extended family in the Bible. And if we define family really narrowly in the sense of just immediate family, what happens to grandparents is they become a non essential extra for the family that they're nice to have, they're not needed to have. So, yeah, I think there is a little bit of distortion going on with how we understand. If we understand family only as parent and child, then grandparents are on the periphery and they don't actually get to engage in any significant way.
- [10:55]
Jim Daly
Yeah, and I've never. I mean, it's. Yeah. A man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. That, that's the nuclear family with the extension of grandparents. I mean, it's, it's not new, it's in the Old Testament. So we're looking at three to five thousand years that this has been occurring. And it seems reasonable, I would think, as a scholar, the idea there in that separation by distance is part of modernity. I mean, traveling to New York and you grew up in Utah, that's just part of it. You work in New York or wherever you work and you're 3,000 miles away from your extended family. That's the difference. So you're not as integrated, you're not in the same village, you're not passing a home down from one to the next in most. So I just publicly want to make sure we get that point across. You share a story about a woman named Pat with two T's. By the way, I like that Pat and her granddaughter was struggling in her faith. And what did Pat do as an example of what a good grandmother can do?
- [11:58]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Well, let me read. I'm just going to share this text that Pat got from her granddaughter to give you a sense of the impact that grandmother had on her granddaughter. So let me just read this for you. So Pat received this from her teenage granddaughter. I've learned more about how to be a Christian by watching how you live your life, the way you pursue a life that reflects Christ in every way, whether that be through your marriage or simply talking to a man in a restaurant. For 17 years, I've watched you share the gospel shamelessly and point our family towards him. In every situation, good and bad, I've ever been in, you have reminded me that it's not about me and that I serve a God that has a plan for me that ultimately leads to Him. The day we spent going around to different landmarks. Reading that book is what I attribute to the beginning of my spiritual journey. You showed me that following him is what matters. Wow. Hats off to Pat. She was attuned to her granddaughter struggling in her faith and intentionally decided to invest, made herself available. And I think every grandparent has the opportunity to do what Pat did here. You know, we can be intentional and we can be available. And the impact of a godly life on a grandchild over the years, they're watching us. And that is a strong apologetic for Jesus Christ. And you know, there's a couple of like key phrases. I want grandparents to walk away from today's broadcast with it's grandparents matter. I think our culture undervalues grandparents and ones from this here that's moving from Christian grandparenting to intentional Christian grandparents. And if you as a grandparent are willing to do that, to go from Christian grandparenting to intentional Christian grandparenting like Pat did here, I think God will utilize that and bless that. And just what a great example.
- [13:59]
John Fuller
And Josh, in addition to kind of actions, there are opportunities for words. And you had a really wonderful story about your dad sharing his testimony with one of your kids. Tell us that story because it's very touching.
- [14:14]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
One of the key methods in scripture that God gives to grandparents is sharing your testimony, talking about the work of God, the glorious deeds. So I think it's a great opportunity. And you mentioned with my dad, he took the opportunity. He went to granddads and lads at a camp about two hours from from where we live. And when his grandsons are kind of in that 10, 11 year old age range, he brings them for a weekend and he builds in sharing his testimony. So he types it out on a page, gives it to him, and during the two hour car ride talks about how he came to faith in college through his track cross country teammate and how that just transformed his life. And it was so funny coming home. John, my, he's now 12, so this was not too long ago. He says, you know dad, it's great to hear how grandpa came to faith in Christ. You know, he talked for a really long time. But I'll tell you what, all three of my sons have that piece of paper up in their room and they will cherish that for the rest of their life. And it's one of God's methods to build faith. Our stories that we have just conversion story, how God's been faithful to us, those aren't the point. It's not us, it's the pointer to make much of who God is. And our culture has done the exact opposite. It's taken something that God has meant for good and used it for evil. That's what deconstruction stories are. They're personal testimonies of walking away from Christ to destroy faith. God's built that in in a testimony kind of component to build faith. And, man, you read this all over, especially the Old Testament, about tell of the glorious deeds of the Lord and his might and the wonders he has done to the next generation. And what it does is, as like my dad did with my son, it helps our kids, our grandkids have this great view of a grand God, that there is no rival, there is no alternative, and he's a God that they can trust and put their faith in. And so, yeah, man, use your testimony. If you've never done that, God's given it as one of the tools in your tool belt. And, man, you could write it down and give it, or build it into a family gathering at Thanksgiving or Christmas or when you have an opportunity doing, you know, fishing or baking or driving. You know, build that in.
- [16:35]
Jim Daly
And I hear John, your son, saying, but make it crisp.
- [16:38]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Make it crisp. Doesn't need to be an hour.
- [16:42]
Jim Daly
It's always good for us older folk to remember that. Let me ask you, your mom passed away before you had kids and she had grandkids, and sorry for that. I lost my mom when I was nine. So I can feel that pain. But in that context, a good friend of mine encouraged me to do videos for Gene and for my boys and then something generic for potential grandkids. If something should happen to me, he had done this. But speak to the power of that, because your mom. You guys did something similar, correct?
- [17:14]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Yeah. I was 29 when my mom was diagnosed with ALS. We thought she'd have a longer time. It was really quick, only ended up being six months.
- [17:25]
Jim Daly
Terrible disease.
- [17:25]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Yes, horrible. But I had a one year old at the time and realized, well, my kids aren't going to be around or my mom's not going to be around to know my kids and share all of her wisdom and her faith with them. So I just took two weeks to spend time with my mom and sat at her feet, asked her all kinds of questions that I could think of and recorded them. Not only how she came to faith, but what are your favorite hymns, what are your favorite Bible verses, how when you pray, what do you pray about? Just literally everything I could think of. And we recorded that and we have a small little booklet that we put all that Together and, you know, pass it out to all of our family, our grandkids and nephews and all have that they can know their grandmother a little. It's definitely not nearly as wonderful as having her in person, but that is, you know, that's a testimony on steroids, I guess, to have. And I now, as a son, look back at that, and I am just. It's just a joy. And it's such a wonderful thing to just see my mom's faith and the legacy that she has through that. So there's just so many ways we can build those kinds of tools into our family. You just mentioned two right there that we've done with our kit. Yeah.
- [18:43]
Jim Daly
Which I think is great. A question that I didn't anticipate asking you, but I think it's good to. Gene's mom and dad were not believers, but we spent a lot of time with them, especially during Christmas and other breaks, summer breaks, things like that. And they lived far away, so we had to fly, but we'd stay there. And they were warm and loving people. But, you know, we would talk pretty openly about the distinction between what they believe, what we believe with our kids, not with them all sitting at the table. But how would you suggest approaching that kind of situation where maybe the grandparents are not believers and you are, and you take your kids into that environment, do you coach them up, do you talk about that openly, or do you hold that for a while?
- [19:32]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
My grandparents, on one set, I don't believe were ever Christians. So I lived that reality. And at times there were challenges as our family was walking, living out their Christian faith. And I'll tell you, as a grandchild, I had a lot more freedom to speak truth and share the gospel with my grandparents. And I did, especially as I got older, loved my grandparents. We would spend a lot of time playing cards with them, and we would get in conversations about their beliefs and our beliefs, and we would tell them why we believe what we believed, and we would, you know, we'd have those kinds of conversations. So we, as you said, we loved the warmth and the relationship and valued that. And I encouraged to maintain that, build that. That becomes a bridge to share the gospel and to communicate truth. It doesn't need to be with a hammer, but as we're in relationships, you know, the truth comes as part of that package.
- [20:27]
Jim Daly
Yeah. And grandkids can be very, you know, surprisingly blunt. Grandma, why don't you believe in Jesus? Boom.
- [20:35]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
There may need to be some boundaries, though, depending on their, you know, how.
- [20:39]
Jim Daly
It'S hard to say no to a five year old that asks that question though, it's like, I just don't believe the same way. But it's, I hear what you're saying, like let it roll and then just shore it up where you need to, which is good. Let me ask you about your dad. So your mom passed away and he remarried. That can be kind of delicate as well. And I'm sure there's many people in the audience that have done that. And it's a good thing. It's a biblical thing. It's not anti biblical to remarry after your spouse has passed away. But it can kind of be unusual for the grandkids because they don't know, okay, who's this new person and what do we call her? What were some of the things that had to deal with and overcome?
- [21:20]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
So death has been one of the challenges in our grandparenting journey with our family and one of the surprises and put that in the didn't expect that to happen box for Josh. When my dad was dating Pam, they came and said, hey, would you officiate our wedding? So I said, sure, but I'm not going to do your premarital counseling. That's like a little too weird there. That's a good point.
- [21:45]
Jim Daly
That's wisdom.
- [21:45]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
But it was a blessing. But also, wow, I can't believe I'm standing here in front of my dad and officiating this, you know, this experience is happening. And here we go, saddle up. One of the biggest challenges we had, as you mentioned, Jim, was, you know, what do we call Pam and what role does she have? And I think for Pam there might have been some hurt feelings on the front end just trying to navigate that and that, you know, that was our fault. Not doing a great job. Maybe on the front end. Pam's been so gracious and she's been God's gift to our family. Blended family. Anybody that's gone through that, I did that as a young adult. It's hard, it's not easy, it's not microwave, it's crock pot. And a lot of grace and a lot of forgiveness and a lot of bearing with is necessary. The way I think about it today is there was pre Jane Mulva Hill, my mom, and there's post Jane Mava Hill. And when my mom died, life was never going to be the same as in an extended family situation. And we just had to let go, we had to release and we had to be open to accepting. This is just a new day. It is a new normal. We're going to have new traditions, we're going to have new everything. It's a blank slate. We need to let Pam speak into some of what that looks like. She's bringing things in. We can speak into some preferences and God's been gracious and blessed that and we continue through God's grace to grow. But now we're, I don't know, we're 12 plus years in and we're at a different place, a good place and just part of our world now.
- [23:23]
John Fuller
I appreciate that. And you mentioned earlier Josh, about the importance of being intentional. You made it very practical in terms of intentional questions. I loved the perspective on meals. Grandparents, rather than let meals be something that is chaos that you get through, instead lean in, give some encouragement on that.
- [23:42]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Meals have been outsourced to others. So we have a lot of family surrogates in our society. And you just think about Sunday dinner at grandma's house and all the just walking in your grandparents house, all the smells and the special things that happened around food. And I think it's a missed opportunity for a lot of families today, a lot of grandparents today, that they have essentially not been more intentional with the meal side of things. And many grandparents have told me that they find it challenging because it's just, it is chaos. Especially young ones come in, essentially destroy the house, you know, and then leave. You know, I had one set of grandparents tell me we only bought a table that seats two on purpose. We literally can't seat. But I will say, you know, food is a secret weapon for families in the sense of good food draws people in. In the day that we live in today, there's so many allergies and food diet preferences and you know, all those things. And I just think it's an opportunity, it's a giving season for grandparents to say we're going to be as accommodating as possible. You know, if we make food a battleground or aren't very accommodating, it is going to impact our families coming over. So that whole food thing's a biggie. And you know, find out what your family loves, open fridge policy, stock it, do what you can to lure them in with food and be super accommodating.
- [25:12]
Jim Daly
Well, one of the things here, I mean you look at that research and how much value transmission occurs at the table. And Jean, I always applaud her whenever I can here because she did a great job. Mealtime was steady and always at 6ish. And you know, we'd sit there for an hour, hour and a half with our two boys and just have great conversations and eat a good meal. And that's something. You're right. Not even just grandparents, but parents. Being able to create that environment is so critical and so much of what you want to see your children become will be grown at that time. It's not the busyness of the day. You're going to get that kind of interaction. It's at the dinner table where you can actually sit and talk and enjoy one another's company. Josh, thanks again for being with us. This is really good stuff.
- [25:58]
Dr. Josh Mulvihill
Appreciate that. I had the opportunity to be here, guys.
- [26:01]
Jim Daly
Well, as we talked about today, grandparents play such an important role in the lives of their grandchildren. And to those of you listening who are in that stage of life, I want to encourage you to make the most of your opportunity to build a multi generational legacy of faith in your family and we want to help you to do that. One great resource for getting started is Josh's book, Grandparenting Strengthening your family and passing on your faith. He has so many practical tips for grandparents that we didn't even have time to cover today. If you make a gift to focus on the family for any amount, we'll send you a copy of Josh's book to say thank you for being a partner in ministry. Your donations are so important for us to keep helping families, especially right now. All around us the culture is attacking the biblical family structure and our work supporting families, saving marriages and speaking up for the preborn is more important than ever. We have some exciting new projects we're working on like Truth Rising. It's a free documentary that you can download from YouTube about turning the cultural tide back toward God. But we can't do this without you. So be a part of the ministry.
- [27:11]
John Fuller
Make a one time gift as you can. Or if you're able to join the Friends of the Family program through a monthly pledge, we'd be so grateful. And you can make that donation and get Dr. Josh Mulvihill's book When youn Call, 800, the letter A in the Word Family, 800-232-6459 or of course online. You can make that donation and get the book. We've got details in the show notes. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.
- [27:56]
Jim Daly
God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit truthrising. Com today. That's truthrising. Com.