Navigating Infant Loss as a Family

Summary

Podcast Summary: Navigating Infant Loss as a Family

Focus on the Family with Jim Daly delves deep into the heart-wrenching subject of infant loss, exploring how families navigate grief while maintaining their faith. In the episode titled "Navigating Infant Loss as a Family," released on June 24, 2025, hosts Jim Daly and John Fuller engage in a poignant conversation with Annie Downs and her sister Tatum Green. Together, they share their personal journeys of loss, resilience, and the role of faith in healing.

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Introduction to Loss and Faith

The episode opens with Tatum Green sharing the initial shock of her son TJ’s diagnosis and the immediate concern for her other child, Sam. At 00:05, Tatum reflects:

"No one's life looks the way they want it to be. Everyone has places of pain and disappointment and that's where Jesus meets us."
— Tatum Green [00:05]

John Fuller echoes the profound and unique pain associated with infant loss, emphasizing that it often comes without explanation. He introduces the guests, Annie Downs—a best-selling author and speaker—and Tatum Green, who together authored the children's book "Where Did TJ Go?" aimed at helping children process grief.

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Personal Journeys Through Grief

Tatum Green's Story

Tatum recounts her family's struggles with infertility, highlighting four miscarriages and a failed IVF attempt before the birth of her healthy son, Sam (04:10). This period was marked by immense emotional turmoil, culminating in the devastating diagnosis of TJ's trisomy 18 at 12 weeks (06:50). Tatum describes the physical and emotional challenges they faced:

"I have to tell myself that over and over again, which even now is, like, heartbreaking to think."
— Tatum Green [09:23]

Despite the grim prognosis, Tatum and her husband, Jacob, chose to cherish the brief time they had with TJ, allowing him to live for 56 days. She reflects on the emotional complexities of holding both grief and joy simultaneously, likening it to a whale needing to surface for air:

"It's very complicated to hold both grief and joy... It's actually not great, you know, like, so it is very complicated."
— Tatum Green [16:53]

Annie Downs' Perspective

Annie provides an outsider’s view of her sister Tatum’s journey, emphasizing the family's unity and support. She shares how her role transformed to support Tatum and Sam, ensuring that the household remained a place of normalcy for their two-year-old son amidst the chaos of loss.

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Coping Mechanisms and Support Systems

The Green family relied heavily on their close-knit community and church for support. Tatum highlights the importance of honest conversations with God during their grief:

"It's not only okay, but it's good and right to have that chat with the Lord. Healthy."
— Tatum Green [05:30]

Moreover, Annie discusses the practical ways her family supported each other, from running the household to creating a joyful environment for Sam. They maintained open communication about TJ’s presence in their lives, ensuring that Sam could process his grief naturally.

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Parenting After Loss: Helping Sam Cope

A significant focus of the episode is on how Tatum and Annie helped their son, Sam, understand and cope with the loss of his brother, TJ. Tatum explains their approach to honesty:

"We tried to explain his illness in a way that a 2-year-old could understand. We allow him to experience TJ's death with us and really say goodbye to him."
— Tatum Green [22:43]

They incorporate TJ into daily life through pictures and stories, creating an environment where Sam can freely express his emotions. This method aligns with the advice from a respected counselor, David Thomas, who contributed a letter to their book, emphasizing factual and compassionate communication.

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Faith as a Foundation for Healing

Throughout their ordeal, Tatum and Annie emphasize the pivotal role of their Christian faith in navigating grief. Their belief in God's plan and the promise of heaven provided solace and a framework for understanding their loss. Annie shares a touching moment of witnessing Jacob’s unwavering love and presence with TJ:

"Watching Jacob do that with TJ was really inspiring to me."
— Annie Downs [20:37]

Additionally, Tatum discusses how their faith deepened their empathy and compassion, enhancing their ability to support others in similar situations:

"The experience of grief has made me a lot more understanding and empathetic."
— Tatum Green [19:55]

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"Where Did TJ Go?"—A Resource for Families

Annie and Tatum collaborated on the children's book "Where Did TJ Go?" designed to help young children understand and cope with the loss of a sibling. The book serves as a conduit for conversations about death and heaven, providing families with a tangible resource to address difficult emotions.

Annie highlights the book's approach:

"It does not say TJ went to heaven, it says TJ died because we... Where did TJ go will be the conduit in between."
— Annie Downs [24:37]

The book includes practical advice and supports parents in fostering honest discussions, making the grieving process more manageable for both children and adults.

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Conclusion: Embracing Both Grief and Joy

The episode concludes by reinforcing the importance of embracing both grief and moments of joy as part of the healing journey. Tatum and Annie encourage listeners to allow themselves to feel a range of emotions, advocating for a balanced approach to processing loss.

Annie encapsulates this sentiment with the whale analogy:

"Be a whale. Be a whale. I can go... I also have the emotional maturity to come up for relief and get oxygen."
— Annie Downs [18:30]

The hosts commend the guests for their vulnerability and the valuable resources they’ve provided, urging listeners who experience similar losses to reach out and utilize available support systems.

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Resources Mentioned

• Book: Where Did TJ Go? by Annie Downs and Tatum Green
• Counseling: Focus on the Family offers Christian counseling services for those dealing with grief and loss. Contact at 800-FAMILY or visit focusonthefamily.com.
• Support: Hope Restored Marriage Intensives for couples facing challenges, reachable at 1-866-875-2915.

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This episode serves as a compassionate guide for families navigating the uncharted waters of infant loss, emphasizing the importance of faith, community support, and honest communication. Through their personal stories, Annie Downs and Tatum Green offer hope and practical strategies for coping with one of life’s most profound challenges.

Transcript

[Tatum Green]

One of my initial thoughts the day we got TJ's diagnosis is what about Sam? And almost just as instantly I thought, you know, no one's life looks the way they want it to be. Everyone has places of pain and disappointment and that's where Jesus meets us. And I'm going to have to trust Jesus that he's going to do that for Sam.

[Jim Daly]

Well, that's Tatum Green describing the heartbreaking situation of having to tell her young boy that his sibling would not survive. This is FOCUS on the FAMILY with Jim Daly. And today we're exploring the topic of loss and how to navigate the grief that comes from that, especially in terms of our faith. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller.

[John Fuller]

John, someone has said this about infant loss. There's a unique pain that comes from preparing a place in your heart for a child who never comes or never becomes that teenager, that adult. And it's such a unique spot. My brother and sister in law lost their son to cancer at 29. And you know, I asked him one time, is there a day that goes by that you don't think of Bobby? And he said never, never a morning that goes by, never an afternoon. And it just shows you the depth of the pain of that. And it doesn't come with an explanation. I mean, I don't know that we can figure it out. And you can talk to God and I don't know, it's one of those job experiences. And today we're going to talk with two very special guests about that experience and what it meant to them.

[Jim Daly]

Yeah. And we turn to God and we ask why? And as you said, Jim, there aren't answers. But I think we'll get a glimpse into how to navigate the grief. Today we have Annie Downs and her sister Tatum Green. Annie is a best selling author, podcaster and speaker and she's written a number of books and hosts a number of podcasts and speaks and she addresses friendship, having fun, the importance of connecting with God's word. And today through a little book she wrote, where Did TJ Go? She talks about grief and loss in helping children process those emotions. Now Tatum, as I said, is Annie's sister. She's married to Jacob. They serve in ministry with Youth with the Mission. She's the mother of Sam and TJ and they've collaborated actually on the book. So we can tell you more. You can get a cop of the book where Did TJ Go? From us. We've got the details in the show notes.

[John Fuller]

Tatum and Annie, welcome to FOCUS on.

[Tatum Green]

The Family thank you, Jim. Such an honor to be here.

[John Fuller]

It's good to have you. It's a heavy subject as the YouTube watchers and the listeners on podcasts and radio take this in. It is a, you know, kind of sit back and absorb this. Most people hit tragedy of some sort, whether it was years ago or ahead of them. And so this is one of those programs that just prepares a person for that moment, whether it's the loss of your parents, which it'll happen, or the loss of a sibling or the loss of a child. Let me ask you, you do come from a close knit family. That's awesome. I'd love to spend a half hour talking to you about that. But tell me about your family and about your special boy, Sam and how he came into your life.

[Annie Downs]

So I'll do our nuclear family. Yeah, our parents, we grew up in Georgia. Parents are still married. They're awesome. We grew up in church. I'm the oldest, clearly. Tatum is about 15 months younger than me. And then we have another sister of about seven years younger than Tatum.

[John Fuller]

About 15 months.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah. He was such a firstborn. And. And then my parents also helped take care of some of my cousins. So when we do family things, there's a lot more of us and that all kind of operate. We call it cousin siblings. We all kind of operate as one big crew. And Tatum is married to Jacob, as you said, John. And so I'll let you take it from there. Tatum talking about Sam and tj.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah. So Jacob and I got married. We were in our mid-30s, which, you know, in the Christian world is like grandparents.

[John Fuller]

Well, but it's kind of. It's more normal now.

[Tatum Green]

It is getting more and more normal. Yeah.

[John Fuller]

Young people to marry a little later.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah. And so we were hoping to start a family pretty soon, and it turned out that was really hard for us. We had four miscarriages in our first three years of marriage. And we also had a failed ivf. So after all of that heartbreaking loss, I found out I was pregnant with our boy Sam. And he is, like you said, he's our miracle boy.

[John Fuller]

And that went well.

[Tatum Green]

And he was healthy, like textbook perfect.

[John Fuller]

Let me ask you this, and we're gonna talk about your other pregnancy with TJ in a moment. And that was more complicated. But I wanna ask this here, which is kind of the grief of all that with the four children you lost. We've had women and their husbands sit with us and talk about just that experience, the loss, the miscarriage of a child, and how we often Will disregard that. Well, it didn't happen. And you just need to get moving and try again or whatever it might be. But to go through that four times, I can't imagine. Did you have that discussion with the Lord? Like, lord, seriously, four times, how do I have faith in you that this fifth pregnancy is actually going to end in a positive way? Did you have that chat?

[Tatum Green]

I had a lot of chats with the Lord in that season.

[John Fuller]

Is it okay to have that chat with the Lord?

[Tatum Green]

You know, and that's actually one of the things that I feel like these losses have taught me is that it's not only okay, but it's good and right to have that chat with the Lord. Healthy. Yeah, it's healthy. I mean, it's like with your spouse, you would never want to just shut down and not have those conversations of things that are challenging for you. And if we want to be like in an intimate relationship with the Lord, then we need to have those real conversations with him. And honestly, like, I would, I wish I could change our story. I would change every detail of those losses, but I'm grateful for what I learned in them. And in one specific loss, our second loss, I was 14 weeks pregnant and I delivered our daughter. And in that one, it was really, really hard. And I kind of like went toe to toe with the Lord about that. And I'm so grateful for that because at the end of that, I said, God, where else would I go? I'm not going to leave you. There's nowhere else to go. And so just having that decision already made and just choosing to fight to believe in his goodness.

[John Fuller]

Yeah. Tatum, let's move to tj. You were several weeks into your pregnancy and you got some devastating news. Tell us about the diagnosis and what the doctors were saying.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah. So at 12 weeks, we did the more genetic testing because it's actually super common now. I think most pregnancies do it. But the markers came back as really concerning. For trisomy 18, which is what they call life limiting diagnosis, There are some few exceptions, some rare cases that can survive, but the vast majority don't survive. A lot don't survive to birth. And then after that, most of the children with trisomy 18 pass away before their first birthday. And because I had already been in the world of miscarriage and loss, I knew what a trisomy 18 diagnosis meant. And so it was just absolutely devastating.

[John Fuller]

And again, the emotion of this, just to recap that, I mean, you had four miscarriages. Sam's pregnancy is healthy and everything Everything was normal and not at risk. And then you get pregnant with TJ and you're back to kind of this dark analysis or diagnosis. How did you manage. I'm sure you were buoyant, expecting Sam. This will go well. And then it wasn't. So that's like a double whammy.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah. Like a whiplash.

[John Fuller]

Yeah, like a whiplash. How did you manage that now?

[Tatum Green]

Wow. That's a good question. I mean, I think that, you know, my emotional state during that pregnancy was really hard because the. At that point, it was easy to just focus on TJ and what was going on because it was so big. But it's also interesting that after his death, the different layers of grief that I've experienced of the miscarriages, especially of our daughter at 14 weeks, because we know she was genetically translated so that.

[John Fuller]

It all bubbled back.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah. And new layers of it. Right. Like, we had this baby girl who was genetically perfect. We know my body can carry a pregnancy. What happened? And so, like, it's been really interesting. That's a weird word to use for it. I mean, devastating. But interesting to see how new layers of grief over the miscarriages have come in the light of a healthy Sam and a very sick TJ Let me.

[John Fuller]

Ask you a delicate question, because, you know, people that get that diagnosis, certainly the physicians, I'm sure, were saying in part to protect you emotionally, they would think. But I totally agree with this outcome that you came to, which is, no, we're going to have this child. It'll live the number of days God has ordained for that child to live. A lot of women and their husbands would not do that. Just tell me about the conviction of that.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah, I'll say that it was really challenging in those spaces, because even as someone who has a value for life and has great community and grew up in the church, and me and my husband were obviously committed to our children. And there is this, like, darkness of that that is even hard to combat as a person of mature faith, that it felt like I had to tell myself, I am not wasting medical resources on my son, which was. I mean, I had to tell myself that over and over again, which even now is, like, heartbreaking to think. But the doctors do think they're helping you. They think it's the most gracious, merciful thing.

[John Fuller]

And that was probably a recommendation they gave.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah, we very. I mean, very early in the conversation said that that wasn't an option for us, but it has given me a lot more compassion and understanding that I didn't have previously for women in this situation, and especially women who don't have. I mean, our family showed up for me and our community, our church community. I've never experienced being carried the way that we were. And I have often thought how fortunate we were to have all of that. And I don't know how women do it if they don't have that, if they don't have an excellent spouse who is there to support them and serve them.

[John Fuller]

Think of that all alone woman who doesn't even have her boyfriend or her husband supporting her.

[Tatum Green]

It is just devastating to think of. And so it was. I mean, it was never an option for us, but it was very. It was a hard space to navigate.

[John Fuller]

Do you think going through that, having TJ and then holding TJ, at least for how many months?

[Tatum Green]

56 days.

[John Fuller]

56 days in the end. And again, you may not be able to measure this, but with the miscarriages, it might inform you. Did that experience of being able to hold him for 56 days, to be his mom outside the womb for 56 days, did it help emotionally? I mean, it's a tough question.

[Tatum Green]

It's a tough question. Do you know? I am so grateful. Even, like, we didn't think we would get even close to that amount of time with him. And you know, as a parent, the day a baby comes out, they kind of look crazy. Right. Like, even just his sweet little face. By the time he passed away at two months, he had grown, you know, and his face had changed. And so I am eternally grateful that we got that time with him, that I got to see him. I feel like there's a lot. I know him, you know, like, his eyes were so deep. I can tell you things that he liked his features. Yeah. And his little angry knees. When he would get mad, he would stick his legs out, like. And we caught him as angry knees and. Yeah. And he had eyebrows that did a lot of work.

[John Fuller]

Well, it's important for couples to know that because I think it informs that decision.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah, totally. And I will say though, it was, you know, like, I am grateful and I would not change our choice. And it was the hardest season of my life by far. So it's not that it was easy. There was nothing easy about it. Yeah. They were at.

[Annie Downs]

They were three weeks in the nicu and then TJ was at Tatum and Jacob's home in hospice care for five weeks with 247 care.

[John Fuller]

Yeah.

[Tatum Green]

So it was us being the 24, 7 care. Yeah. With a two year old. It was a really.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah.

[John Fuller]

I was gonna ask Sam.

[Annie Downs]

It was two really challenging season, for sure.

[Jim Daly]

This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And our guests today are Annie F. Downs and Tatum Green. They collaborated on this terrific little kids book which addresses a big topic. It's called where did tj? A book for kids on grief and loss. And we have copies of the book here at the ministry. You'll find the [e-mail] broadcast.

[John Fuller]

Annie, let me pull you in here. You're the older sister. You're seeing all this happen. You guys are tight knit, as you said at the top of the program. What were you going through watching your sister and her husband struggle in all this?

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, I mean, it's. We had, in a different way, experienced the four miscarriages as well. Right. The exciting announcement, the telling. Telling your family and then having to retell your family like she and Jacob had to do. And so with tj, you know, we got this opportunity, and I use that phrase, and I know it's going to sound strange, but very rarely do you get this opportunity to prepare, to grieve and hope that God will do something different, you know, so we. So from week 12 on, it was, man, this is terrible. And what could God do? And how could God change the story?

[Tatum Green]

What can't God do?

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it was very like, we are available. Even when he was born, he came out healthier than they expected. And so then it was like, okay, what's going on here? Is this a slow miracle? He only had. Tatum's posted pictures of this at this point, so he only had one full arm. So I called him Nemo, you know, because Nemo had that little fin. Yeah. So I said, just keep swimming. And even in his birth and in the first day of his life, it was kind of like, okay, God, maybe you're actually telling a different story here than we thought. And so, because we. When I wrote the story for Sam, when I wrote where did TJ Go? We thought TJ wouldn't leave the hospital. And so for the family, it was the same. Like, oh, TJ's here.

[Tatum Green]

Okay.

[John Fuller]

Everything's connecting.

[Annie Downs]

Yes. And this is okay. Yes. And so what happens next? And so our job, as Tatum said the family, what we got to do as best we could, was just come around. And me and our other sister Sally, ran camp Sally Annie, for Sam, you know, while Tatum and Jacob were at the NICU with TJ and we had. I bought an inflatable pool. Y' all can imagine. Y' all Know me and my fun. I'm like, what do we need? What does Sam need to have the best time as a 2 year old?

[Tatum Green]

And he said, I don't know how you do this every day. I was like, I don't do this every day.

[Annie Downs]

We were like, chalk, pool, food, whatever. And so that was how we spent our time, is how can we take care of Sam and support Sam? And then once Tatum and Jacob were home and it was clear that TJ would not live much longer, it was okay, we need nurses, we need food. Friends want to help. And so we were able to be around them and help with that. And also that meant we got to be around tj, too.

[Tatum Green]

Annie ran my life.

[John Fuller]

Yeah.

[Tatum Green]

She ran my calendar.

[John Fuller]

She is your older sister.

[Tatum Green]

She ran my mail, the meal train. She ran the caring bridge. She found nurses. She literally made it possible for me to focus on D.J.

[John Fuller]

Yeah. That's so, so good. So good.

[Jim Daly]

I'd love for you. You've touched on this already. And it's such a biblical concept that life isn't just one or the other. It's both. It's kind of both. And. And you mentioned it, Tatum. And then Annie, you captured it in the book, this combination of joy and grief simultaneously. So would you share just a little bit, Tatum, about what that looked like? And then I'd love to hear about the whale, because that's really instructive, I think.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah. Actually, my therapist and I talk about this a lot because it is very complicated as a human to hold both grief and joy and grief and trust and pain and joy, you know, but. And it's, like, seemingly easier to shut one down and be all in the other, but that's just. It's actually not great, you know, like, so it is very complicated, and it actually takes a lot of energy to hold both. Both the grief and joy. And I mean, I just feel like every day I'm learning what that looks like, that it looks like different in each moment, different in each day, and.

[Annie Downs]

And different personalities handle it. Some personalities lean toward. I can sit in this grief. We. We experienced this for Tatum and Jacob is there were friends who would come over and they could sit with Tatum in her sadness. They could really be there and listen, I am not built that way. I. And what I used to think is, man, I'm just not as mature as some of my friends because I can't sit in sadness for three hours with my sister while she's grieving. But actually, it's really important to have the people in your lives. Who lean the other way, that can come over and go, I'm gonna clean the bathroom. I've got Taco Bell on the way. And I'm gonna take Sam and we're gonna go play outside. We need those people, too. But what is healthiest is when you can hold both. And the example I give is whales have to go to the surface, but they're also gonna go to the deep. And the healthier we get, the more we are able to do both as well. Let yourself get down into the feelings. I need to sit with my family and sit with Sam and Tatum and our parents and their grief.

[Tatum Green]

And I need to sit with my own grief, like even.

[Annie Downs]

Yes, totally. And then also come up and go. We can also laugh. We can also get everybody around the table and have a great meal. I mean, TJ was in Tatum and Jacob's house, like I said, for five weeks. And we laughed a lot around his oxygen machine and around him and his little bassinet with all the tubes on him. There was a lot of time when our family was in that room and Sam was running around like a wild 2 year old with our other cousins, Green and Hallie. And it was really fun. I know that sounds crazy, but it was really fun because it was us all together. We have a really sweet family picture that is the only one that will ever exist because TJ's in it and it is. And so we can hold both of those. So a whale, we need to remind ourselves, be a whale. Be a whale. I can go. I have the emotional maturity to go into the depths of this pain. I also have the emotional maturity to know that isn't the only feeling I need to have. I'm allowed to come up for relief and get oxygen.

[John Fuller]

Yeah, no, that's good with that. I mean, speaking for both of you in that regard, how do you describe this idea that the experience of grief makes you a better believer? Is that a fair statement?

[Tatum Green]

Yes. I would have never described myself as.

[Annie Downs]

Empathetic before, nor would I have described her as empathetic before.

[Tatum Green]

That is fair. That is fair. It's genuinely fair.

[John Fuller]

But I mean, that's huge.

[Tatum Green]

And to be able to see and empathize with people's pain, I would say is central to being a believer and being the hands and feet of Christ. So if you're in ministry or not. But I mean, it is our job because we are in ministry. And so I think it has made me a lot more understanding and empathetic. And I also tend to be very black and white. By nature and loss and grief has brought a lot of gray, a lot of nuance that I think I'm willing to sit with people in and navigate with them that I wasn't before.

[John Fuller]

Interesting. So that makes you a better person, you believe?

[Tatum Green]

I think so.

[John Fuller]

Maybe it's your experience.

[Tatum Green]

Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I hope it doesn't. Yeah.

[Annie Downs]

One of the things I've observed of Jacob that I really loved is he really. I think this is an encouragement to all moms but dads as well as he did the dad part. Right. Like he would fill the cars up with gas and make sure, you know, he was doing all the take care of parts. But he was not missing time with tj. He was sitting and holding him. He was doing all the things that you know, in your mind you want to do. If you have limited time with someone, and Jacob really did, that feels for better or for worse more naturally. A mother thing to do at the start of life is to sit with the baby. It's just what the mom tends to do more. Cause she's feeding and taking care of. Yes. But watching Jacob do that with TJ was really inspiring to me. For him to go like. He loves to vacuum as a person. He loves to vacuum. And he would put aside vacuuming because it was his chance to get to hold TJ and talk to tj.

[John Fuller]

Well, I think the idea that your time is so limited, even as a dad, we may be somewhat emotionally disconnected at times. But that to me would be the right outcome.

[Annie Downs]

That's beautiful. Yeah.

[John Fuller]

Be with yourself.

[Annie Downs]

You could tell it was a choice. Exactly.

[Tatum Green]

You know, Jacob has a really soft heart. And so he really. Like he did. He did stuff like he would. They sat and watched the Tour de France together because Jacob loves that. And we have this sweet picture of both of their eyes. This was the coolest thing about tj. He locked in, man. Whatever was going on. If it was you holding him, his eyes locked in on you like they were looking deep into your soul. If you were reading him a book, his little eyes went like this. And we have this sweet picture of him and Jacob just both staring at the TV Tour de France. The Tour de France made us.

[John Fuller]

That's funny. Not your typical two year old show.

[Tatum Green]

No. Or two month old show.

[John Fuller]

Listen, a key part of your story is how you had to help your son Sam do this coping. So the proof is in the pudding. I mean, you did the book, you sat with Sam, you talked with Sam. Both of you did. How is Sam? And what was the process like helping him understand where TJ went.

[Tatum Green]

We got some really good advice early on to try and be as honest with him, age appropriately honest as possible. So we welcomed Sam into every part of the process of tj. We tried to explain his illness in a way that a 2 year old could understand. And we allowed him to experience TJ's death with us as well and really say goodbye to him. And I hope that was the right thing. You know, he's only four, we're only two and a half years out, so we'll see down the road. But so far, you know, it's been really, since, since TJ passed. One of the, the advice we've gotten is to let Sam lead in talking about grief and talking about tj. And so we have pictures of TJ all over our house. We talk about TJ all the time, not in a forcing conversation way, but just he's part of our family. And so when Sam brings it up, we enter in with him and sometimes we cry with him, sometimes he just wants to see pictures and videos of him and tj. And then, you know, he's got like a four year old boy and then he's done and we're, you know, off to the Legos and the trucks and the. So we just try to walk with him in those moments. And we talk a lot about Jesus in heaven and a lot about how God loves us. And it's actually, it feels very unfair that he has to have these conversations already and that he has to ask questions about when people go to heaven and that he doesn't know that it's not normal for a baby to go to heaven. So I do tell him a lot too, that like, usually we get really, really old. Like older than Grammy and Granddaddy, older than grandma and Grandpa before we go to heaven, you know, like, so I.

[John Fuller]

Think that's really good. I think one of the downsides even in the Christian community is we're not able to talk about these things in a way that really soothes those aches and pains and that grief. So I take my hat off to you to say thank you for writing this.

[Annie Downs]

In the back of the book, a counselor we really respect named David Thomas wrot a letter to help parents kind of process with their kids after they read. And one of the things he taught us was be actual and factual. So even in the book it doesn't say TJ went to heaven, it says TJ died because we, we at times, there are gonna be times where parents are really grieving and they need to connect with their child and where did TJ go will be the conduit in between. And where they may not be able to say our daughter died or our sister died, they can say TJ died and it will help with that. But I'll tell you, Tatum and Jacob have done an incredible job of helping Sam process the loss of tj. And the Lord has been very kind to our family to give us opportunity to talk. There's a Sam has this little picture of me and him and TJ framed on his desk. And the other day we were FaceTiming, we were in a meeting. We tend to have meetings, me and Sam, and we're just talking about something silly. And he goes, I love that picture of us. And so TJ's just a normal part.

[John Fuller]

Well, that's what I mean. That's the healthiness of it. And sometimes we avoid the things that are difficult. It's completely understandable. But I love the idea of diving forward and taking the deep breath to your whale analogy, going down and then coming back up for oxygen. I think that's really the story. So thank you so much for being with us.

[Annie Downs]

What an honor. Thank you guys.

[John Fuller]

Thanks for writing this. Given there was not many resources out there and we get to put this into kind of the focus on the family stable. And we do receive mail and emails and texts from people about this difficult spot. You're not alone in that and I would only encourage you to get ahold of us. It may not be you. It may be somebody close to you that's experienced this. Get a copy of this book. We'll make it easy. And a great way to do it is just a gift of any amount and we'll send it to you as our way of saying thank you. If you can't afford it and need it, we're going to get it to you. So we'll trust others. We'll get cover the cost of that. But what a great resource to talk to your son or daughter about the loss of a sibling. I think it's beautiful. It's well done. It's gospel centered, which you said, Annie. So again, get in touch with us.

[Jim Daly]

Donate generously as you can. We've got details in the show notes. Or give us a call and you can learn more about the book. Where did TJ go? You can also call us. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word family. And by the way, Boy Jim, we've touched on such tender topics. There are undoubtedly people that don't identify specifically with this story, but they need to talk to somebody. We have a wonderful team of Christian counselors here, and they're available to have a free phone consultation with you. Our number again, 800, the letter A and the word family. Give us a call if we can be of help. Thanks for joining us today for FOCUS ON THE FAMILY with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

[Annie Downs]

If the fights with your spouse have become unbearable, if you feel like you can't take it anymore, there's still hope. Hope Restored Marriage intensives have helped thousands of couples like yours, and our biblically based counseling will help you find the root of your problems and face them together. Call us at 1-866-875-2915. We'll talk with you, pray with you, and help you find out which program will work best. That's 1-866-875-2915.