Michael Johnson (2:24)

Well, yeah, you got to understand that I was looking for a believer. I grew up in St. Louis and there wasn't a plethora of believers There, that wasn't the buckle of the Bible belt, at least not ones I was attracted to. But I get to Baylor University in Waco, Texas, and the scales fall from my eyes and I see that it is good.

Jim Daly (2:45)

And this is the motivation for going to Baylor.

Michael Johnson (2:47)

Well, it's funny you say that because I honestly, with God as my witness, did not notice that in my visits prior. It wasn't until I showed up for orientation that I was like, oh, my goodness, gorgeous, godly women everywhere.

Jim Daly (3:04)

What was your major at Baylor?

Michael Johnson (3:06)

Well, I was a business major.

Jim Daly (3:07)

Okay. This is like a commercial for Baylor and we love Baylor, but that's funny.

Michael Johnson (3:13)

Yeah. So, yeah, I maybe, maybe went out with 30 different girls my freshman.

Jim Daly (3:19)

What was your purpose then? What were you just to have fun or what was going on?

Michael Johnson (3:23)

Well, I mean, I wanted a girlfriend really bad. And again, because you wanted to get

Jim Daly (3:28)

married or just wanted a girlfriend.

Michael Johnson (3:30)

Honestly, because I wanted a girlfriend.

Jim Daly (3:33)

Okay.

Michael Johnson (3:33)

And marriage was not really a thing that I thought about consciously until my mom gave me a marriage book. Christmas of my junior year in college, I was like, not dating anybody seriously. I was think, thanks, mom, I get it, you want grandkids. But I read it anyway. And reading that marriage book, it changed my whole perspective on what marriage was. From the gateway to guilt free sex to maybe something a lot bigger than that, which then changed my perspective from what I was looking for in a girlfriend. For like, wow, no, I want to be married. And so then instead of looking for a playmate, I thought, I want to look for a teammate. And it just so happened that while I was trying so hard to get all these other girls to fall for me, which if anybody's watching the video, they can see that was. That was a long shot and it didn't happen. Meanwhile, I had this great friendship with this girl named Julie. And so I come back to Baylor second semester of junior year, and I'm like, teammate? Yeah. And I always thought she was cute, and suddenly she became gorgeous and she agreed to date me. Seriously. And. Yeah, and we did it because we wanted to get married.

Jim Daly (4:49)

Let me ask you this. How can couples build that kind of, you know, relationship and also direction to aim toward a mission in their dating and then in their marriage?

Michael Johnson (5:01)

Well, I think it begins with first. And in my book, I give like 10 what we call DTP talks. You've heard of the DTR talk, right? Define the relationship. Well, the DTP talk is why don't you define the person first? And one of those DTP talks, defining the person is what sense of calling do they have on their life already? And I had a calling on my life before I knew I wanted to be married. I knew I wanted to go into the entertainment business. And I had very specific ideas about that. Am I doing that now, today? No, but I did for several years in the Christian music industry. But I think that Julie liked that, that I didn't. I wasn't just getting a business degree. I wanted to work somewhere. Yeah, you had a business meanwhile. I mean, I could see that she had a missions mindset too. She didn't have something quite as specific as that. But to answer your question, it starts with the dater actually having a sense of calling on their life already. And then as they date and they meet someone and they're like, oh, that. Like, if I. If I was to date somebody that knew they were called to foreign missions. Yeah, that calling doesn't. I'm not, I'm not. That doesn't work.

John Fuller (6:18)

Yeah, yeah, we had that actual thing rise up in our relationship. We started off as friends. And I think you endorse that approach because I figured, like, what's the worst? I get a friend out of this deal. But there was at one point before we got married, my wife said, I really feel called to the mission field. And I had to say, I don't feel called. I don't even know what that means. But if God tells me to do something, I will do it down the road. I mean, I'm not going to resist whatever he has to say. So go back to the friendship thing and talk about the importance of laying that foundation of being a friend.

Michael Johnson (6:52)

Yeah, well, because whenever I'm dating, thinking, well, are we going to get married? Are we going to get married? Well, is this the person I'm supposed to marry? Am I going to marry them? Where are you living? You're trying to live in the future and you can't live in the future. And so we separate the goal and the purpose of dating. And the goal. Yes. Is marriage. In fact, if you look in the definition of friends first dating, we say the goal is a life giving, lifelong marriage. So that's the goal, but that's not the purpose. The purpose of dating is growing a friendship that might get you there. And again, you said you did this. It sounds like intentionally. Julie and I did this unintentionally. But bottom line, we grew this friendship. And it's like once the friendship kind of caught fire, in fact, we'd say it felt like falling in love, but really we more or less grew in love. Because we had this friendship that was just so close, so connected. Even coming here today for this broadcast, my wife and I laughed over two or three stupid, silly. If you would have been in the car with us, you probably wouldn't exactly been exactly on the same page. But that's the friendship we have. So when you can encourage them. No, the focus is not, are you going to get married? Is this person going to marry? Are you going to marry? No, the focus is how is that friendship working? Well, you know, we had a lot of miscommunications again on the last date. That's facts that you need to focus on or, man, we had this hard conversation the other day and I thought about what she said and I changed my mind. I think she's right. In fact, that's really wise. I see. Whoa. That's facts you want to focus on. You want to move forward with that?

Jim Daly (8:35)

Let me ask you, you have a story about. This is kind of funny because you said you dated 30 girls in college,

Michael Johnson (8:41)

freshman year in college.

Jim Daly (8:43)

Okay, you did mention in the book one girl that broke your heart. So you brought this up. It's not me. So everybody don't get mad at me. But you call her Danielle. I'm sure you've changed her name. But what did she do?

Michael Johnson (8:58)

Well, she didn't do anything. But I came sophomore year thinking, let's do that again. Let's go out with a bunch of different girls. And when I say go out with 30 different girls, I don't mean a dating relationship. I mean like we went on a date or two or three dates, but it was just like that. But that said, I come my sophomore year going to do the same thing. And I fall hard for this girl named Danielle. I mean, well, not really, but that's what we're calling her. I mean, I'm just head over heels. And at the same time, I could clearly perceive she is not that into me. And I said, God, how did this happen? And I distinctly felt God say, oh, so you want my opinion now? And I was like, I struggle with self righteousness there. Just saying. I was like, want your opinion now. Do I need to remind you that I waited till I got to a school where I could meet Christian girls before I ever dated at all? And we did good Christian. I wanted to find out their testimony. There was no speaking in tongues. There was no laying on of hands. I went through how righteously and well I did it. And when I was done with my little diatribe, I was like, are you saying you wanted Me to, like, ask, like, pray like, lord, should I ask Danielle out? He's like, yes.

Jim Daly (10:26)

So that you would say what you learned was to go to the Lord

Michael Johnson (10:30)

with everything and not just. It's not about following the rules. I mean, yes, you want to follow God's law, but it's about the relationship. And I'm like, hey, God, I got this. I got all these rules of. I'm obeying all your rules here. And all the while, God's like, no, I want to be a part of this. And so, yeah, that really. That rocked me. And I didn't go out with as many girls my sophomore year.

John Fuller (10:56)

That's good, John.

Michael Johnson (10:58)

That's good.

John Fuller (10:59)

So, Michael, I go back to my dating years, and there is this big, nebulous God's will. And that has some effect here to what you're talking about, because did you pray, Lord, should I ask this person out? Should I ask this person out for marriage? How does the greater God's will understanding affect our dating?

Michael Johnson (11:19)

Well, I like to think of it like having three legs to the stool. By the way, let's back up first and say what most people base knowing God's will on and dating. And that's feelings. I knew God told me, da, da, da, da. But I think let's back that up with, yes, seeking him in prayer. Yes, being in his word, but then also seeking community with believers. Those are the three commitments that you really need to have. The commitment to knowing God's word, seeking him in prayer, and pursuing community with the believers. So that then when I have these feelings for this girl and when I pray, I sense God, like, yeah. In fact, I'll tell you what happened. Junior year, after coming back from reading that book, I was like, God, do you think Julie and I should date seriously? Actually, I felt like God said, if you wanted to date Julie seriously, I'd be pleased with that. And I said, please, because we're going to get married. I felt like he said, no, I'm just saying, I mean, if you wanted to date, you know, take your relationship to the next level, that would be nice. Nice, because we're gonna get married. I don't feel like he said, I feel like I just had the green light to move forward. But then that third thing that so many people neglect is that community with believers. So when it comes to, you know, looking at community, the best story that I tell in my book is probably the best story I tell in my book. I live with the same three guys, Sophom, junior senior year in college, but My freshman year, one of my roommates had dated Julie. Seriously. Not just like I was doing, going out with all those girls, but, like, as a girlfriend, and she broke up with them. And then they went out again as boyfriend, girlfriend. And she broke up with him again junior year. I'm not sure how over her he is. I really don't know. It's not a point of conversation I have with this roommate. But I decided that January, after reading that book that my mom gave me and looking at Julie and thinking, hey, I got a teammate. I'm like, I talked to her about let's date. Seriously. But then I'm like, how am I going to tell my roommates? How am I going to tell them? Yancy and Pete say, great. My college pastors say, great. How are my roommates going to affirm this? And lo and behold, one of my roommates comes into the room, not the one that dated her. And he said, hey, were you Julie? Have you and Julie ever thought about dating? Seriously? I was like, julie who? I mean, I felt like Bob Newhart. Like, I just fumbling all over myself. And he goes, well, Stuart, Greg and I were talking, and we just felt like, you guys get along so well. And Greg just said he'd really hate for his past relationship with Julie to stand in the way of you guys getting together. I mean, gentlemen, I felt the Shekinah glory of the Lord shine down into that room. I never could have imagined that blessing. And there it was, all three of my roommates, including the one that dated in the past. Like, you go, guy. And I know when I share that story that that is what the reader wants. They want that kind of affirmation as opposed to just, well, I just saw her across the room, and the Lord told me in ancient Greek that, you know, and I'm not. Well, I actually am kind of discounting that. But, I mean, for every person that believes the Lord told me and they're happily married today, there's somebody else that believes the Lord told me and they're divorced. And for every one of those, there's someone that believed the Lord told me and they never got married. And for every one of those, there's someone that believed the Lord told me, and they never actually spoke to each other.

John Fuller (15:18)

So you have to be careful about the voices you listen to and not let the feelings drive you. What's going on?

Michael Johnson (15:23)

Well, let's just consider that maybe there's this other guy that has access to your soul. The one who shall not be named. And maybe he comes across like an angel of light. And maybe he can make you think that he's the Lord and that he's identified this right person. So just again, the three legs. Yes. Seek God in prayer, pursue community with believers, and know his word. And when those come together, it's beautiful. Yeah.

Jim Daly (15:53)

Let me ask you about cohabiting, because that's a big issue in the church today, where, you know, the idea is if we can just kind of test drive this relationship, see if we can live in the same room day after day and all those things that go with that. The data on it is very bad. That's the most critical component of this. I don't recall exactly the number, but it's a high percentage of couples that don't survive that to make it into marriage. Now you might be saying, well, that proves the point. Then. There's something binding about marriage that is not binding about cohabitation. And that's the big difference, is that cohabitation can break apart because I get up and I don't feel like being engaged with you anymore, being involved with you anymore. Whereas marriage, you know, there's a commitment there that's so critical that even though I don't like being here right now, I'm married to you, I got to figure it out. And that's a bond that goes beyond cohabitation, which is probably why so many cohabiters don't make it.

Michael Johnson (16:58)

Yeah. You know, it's an entirely different mindset. It's the try before you buy mindset, which is so different from what I. The decision I made. The decision you gentlemen made when you're like, I'm giving my life to you. I'm pledging my life to you. I'm going to love, honor, and serve you however I can.

Jim Daly (17:18)

Why in your 20s, does it feel so logical and so mature, though, to try this out?

Michael Johnson (17:23)

Because it does. I mean, it does look like it makes sense. Like how. Why would I want. We wouldn't do it with a roommate. I'm going to commit to living with you for the rest of my life. No. We'll see how this works. But the reality is, even if you get along with someone really well for five years, it doesn't mean you won't get along with them really well for your lifetime. Many married people do that. So what is the difference between cohabiting for five years before you marry versus just getting married and being married five years? You really have to have a sense of commitment again. That's one of the things we talk about in the book, is not so much like, oh, let's move in together and let's see if this works. But no, you want to find someone who already has shown that they can commit, because when you hear about their work situation, they're committed. When you see the friends that they hang out with, they're committed. They aren't bouncing from church to church or young adult group to young adult group, they're committed. And it is that quality that makes a marriage last. It is not how well you mesh together, because we all three at this table, and you listening, know several couples that are very happily married that have so little in common, but they just make it work. And other couples that like, you know, they split apart and you're so surprised because they seem just perfect. So I understand it looks like it makes sense to move in together, but you really test the relationship by seeing will this person wait.

Jim Daly (19:10)

Well, but the most important thing is coming back to what must I do to honor God in this relationship, in every relationship? And, you know, I think in my 20s, that's what I began to realize. You know, it's back to what you said at the very beginning. Did you ask me about dating her? I mean, did you ask me about marrying her? I mean, that's what it is. And then you've got to curtail that appetite until you find that person that will be the potential mate and then behave yourself beforehand. So I just feel like that's part of honoring the Lord. And then he honors you and blesses you for doing that.

Michael Johnson (19:48)

And maybe not like you think, this is not prosperity gospel, right? But it's just, no, when I obey, I am going to be blessed. Probably not like I thought, with $1 million. But there is a blessing, there's a peace, there's a joy.

John Fuller (20:05)

You know, Michael, as you were speaking, I was thinking about a mindset that we have in that try it before you buy it. Mindset of living together. It seems like there might be this mindset of, there's a reason, there's another reason. Oh, and when they do that, I really am thinking I'm filling my bucket with reasons that this isn't going to work out. Whereas when you're married, the mindset is, I got to figure this out. You think that might be part of some of the challenges?

Michael Johnson (20:36)

100%, absolutely.

Jim Daly (20:38)

What does it mean to be emotionally healthy in Christ so that you can do this in a God honoring way? Emotionally healthy in Christ is. That's big. I mean, what does that mean? Confidence in him, Peace in you? You're not acting Like a squirrel. I mean, you're not.

Michael Johnson (21:00)

You mean like me my freshman year?

Jim Daly (21:01)

Yeah, maybe like your freshman year. I don't want to say it that way, but you know, you're just moving around and you know, I just, as we're talking, I'm just talking about those again. 20s, maybe 30 something now because people are marrying a little later. But it's just that maturity just settling in. So you do know what you're wanting a. You do know you want to get married. You don't want to do this life single. So the point is, begin to act on that. I mean, you're now an adult. You've got to think through these things so that you're not acting like a child and behaving like a child. But you're thinking through what's my responsibility. Am I emotionally mature in Christ? Wow, that is a good question for a 20something. And if not, how do I get there?

Michael Johnson (21:50)

Yeah, well, I look at that in my relationship with Julie. If Julie and I would have dated freshman year, actually we did go out, but not when my roommate was dating her seriously. But if we would have dated seriously my freshman year, it would have been probably the same train wreck that my roommate encountered dating her. And it wouldn't have been her, it would have been me. Because I told you I showed up at college like, I want a girlfriend. But I got these guy friends that really centered me. They loved the Lord, they held me accountable. And it wasn't just holding accountable, obeying the rules, but like, no, just like we're together working. So that's a huge part of that, that maturity that I see so often young adults lacking. And I'll talk about the guys specifically just because for obvious reasons, I'm usually talking to the, you know, the young adult guys individually. And I'm just like, man, you aren't plugged into a church. You're not really known by anybody. You're sharing these deep dark secrets with me and you're telling me your best friends don't know those things. That's emotional maturity. When you have that kind of community that is around you and it is that community that then made what would have been a terrible decision freshman year. Let's date. Seriously, Julie. To being a really great decision junior year. Because I knew even if things don't work out with Julie Yancy, Pete, Fred, Greg, Stuart, my college pastor, Craig, I'm all right with them, I'm good with them. But also being disciplined about being with the Lord, being disciplined about spending time with him, not as an obligation? Well, I mean, maybe as an obligation, just like John, do you have to be disciplined about spending time with your wife? Jim, do you have to be disciplined? Or does it just kind of happen just naturally, especially with your travel schedule?

Jim Daly (23:48)

I think that was a trick question. So, you know, how do you encourage young people to take that first step in the preparation for marriage? You know, what if somebody's hearing this today, going, okay, I haven't really been thinking about it. I'm at Baylor. I've dated 30 women my freshman year. I mean, just roll the clock back. What would the old you have heard that would have gone, okay, I gotta change what I'm doing?

Michael Johnson (24:14)

Well, any huge endeavor requires going to class, talking to experts on the job, training, I guess, experience, if you want to say it. And reading books. And so I would say to you, if you're like, I want to do this right, number one, you don't have to buy a marriage book. You can buy my book. It's actually a dating book. But really, seriously, read Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas. Read Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerdge.

Jim Daly (24:44)

That is the meat of how to do it, right?

Michael Johnson (24:46)

So reading books, go to classes. What if young adult guy in. Let's say you're 30. What if you went to a marriage seminar and people are like, or your spouse and you're like, well, actually, I'm just trying to learn things ahead of time. And what if one of those married couples had a phone with the number in it of a single girl that they were like, oh, my word, she needs to meet that now I'm, I'm joking a little bit. But seriously, do some online things. So go to class and talk to experts. Who are the experts? We call them rock stars around Future marriage University. But people that have been married 30 plus years that when you look at their marriage, you're like, I want that. I want what they have and I want what they have. Well, take them out to coffee, find out how did they get together, what, what mistakes and smart things did they do. And then, and here's the irony. Getting the real life experience. Usually people think that has to be dating experience. Like, I guess I got to go out with 30 different. No, that's like experience getting along with your roommates. That's experience getting along at work. That's experience making sacrifices at your church so this girl can go on this mission trip because you and your small group sent her. That's the kind of experience. No, not experience between the sheets experience above the sheets, where you will live the vast majority of your married life, but learning in those contexts of how to have healthy relationships, well, we've covered it.

Jim Daly (26:30)

And now you got to get the book because it'll cover more. But Michael, thanks so much for being with us today.

Michael Johnson (26:34)

Again, thank you.

Jim Daly (26:36)

And for those listening, I hope you feel equipped to further develop your relationship with your significant other, whatever stage you're in. Marriage is such an effective way for us to get closer to God and further the Kingdom of God. It is worth the commitment to invest in dating and marriage. And if you're married already, I hope you'll share this with your single friends and family members. Michael's book is such a helpful resource for young people. It's called Date like youe Know what yout're Doing. We have copies for you here at Focus on the Family, and when you make a gift of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. Because of your donations, we're able to help strengthen hundreds of thousands of marriages every year. So be a part of that and I hope you'll make a financial gift today.

John Fuller (27:27)

Yeah, donate and get your copy of the book when you call 800, the letter A in the word Family 800-232-6459 or donate and get the details when you click the links in the show notes. And thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Jim Daly (27:57)

Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us, and it's our job as believers to share his truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, Refocus with Jim Daly. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen@refocuswithjimdaily.com.