Practical Tips to Transform Your Marriage

Summary

Focus on the Family with Jim Daly

Episode Summary: Practical Tips to Transform Your Marriage

Date: November 17, 2025
Guests: Jason & Tori Benham
Hosts: Jim Daly & John Fuller

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Overview

This episode of "Focus on the Family" brings in Jason and Tori Benham, marriage speakers and authors of Marriage A to Z: 30 Days to Relational Transformation, to share practical, biblically grounded advice for invigorating and transforming your marriage. Anchored in candid stories from their own relationship and actionable steps for listeners, the Benhams emphasize appreciation, humor, conflict resolution, and shifting one’s dependence from their spouse to God. The episode is packed with concrete tips, memorable anecdotes, and faith-based encouragement, designed to give your marriage a strategic “tune up.”

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. A Strategic Approach to Marriage

• Planned vs. Unplanned Effort:
  • Many people put more intentional planning into their careers than their marriages.
  • Quote: “Some of us come home and we don’t have [a plan] for our marriage... We can’t translate that into the same space.” – Jim Daly (01:33)
• The Benhams’ book introduces 30 principles (one for each day) with practical exercises for couples.

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2. ‘Z’ is for Zanyism – The Power of Humor

• Adding Humor to the Relationship:
  • Humor is scientifically proven to bond couples.
  • Quote: “Zeroing in on zanyism… is all about to be able to have a good laugh... When you start laughing with somebody, it actually draws you close.” – Jason Benham (03:31)
• Memorable Moment: The ‘Wipe Your Rear’ Story
  • Jason recalls a stressful day at the fair, where Tori, fed up, threw a $5 bill at him and quipped: “Wipe your rear with this!” Both burst out laughing, creating a long-running inside joke. (05:08)
  • Quote: “The reason I bring that up is because now, 25 years later… we might say something like, wipe your rear end with this.” – Jason Benham (06:17)

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3. The Initial Spark: From Attraction to Appreciation

• Dating vs. Marriage Dynamics:
  • Attraction often leads to appreciation when dating, but after marriage, appreciation must lead to attraction.
  • Quote: “After marriage, the more you think about the things you appreciate about your spouse, the more attracted you’ll be.” – Jason Benham (08:42)
• Shared Experiences:
  • Jason and Tori didn’t feel ‘love at first sight’ but emphasized the solid foundation of friendship, with the attraction deepening over time. (07:01)
  • Quote: “Which I love that we had a solid friendship.” – Jason Benham (07:02)

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4. Trade Expectation for Appreciation

• God as Your Source:
  • Tori describes a breakthrough walking alone during a stressful parenting season, realizing her contentment should be rooted in God, not Jason.
  • Quote: “I began to really look to Jason as a source of my happiness…the Lord really needed to get help me to get to a place where I saw him as my source and not Jason as my source.” – Tori Benham (11:59)
• Practical Marriage Advice:
  • Replace expectations of your spouse with appreciation, leading to more gratitude and closeness.
  • Quote: “Replace expectation with appreciation, and you’ll see your relationships blossom.” – Jason Benham (14:34)

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5. Conflict as a Pathway to Connection (‘C’ is for Cookie Dough)

• Cookie Dough Analogy:
  • Ingredients on their own aren’t great, but when blended (via conflict), the bond forms (the Holy Spirit as the bonding agent), leading to something wonderful.
  • Quote: “God takes two individuals completely different from each other…into the bowl of conflict and says…if you guys yield to the Holy Spirit…what’s going to come out on the other side is going to nourish people.” – Jason Benham (15:55)
• Embrace, Don’t Avoid, Conflict:
  • Conflict should not be avoided; it is an opportunity to transition from “me” thinking to “we” and deepen the marital bond. (15:18-17:02)

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6. The Realities of Post-Honeymoon Conflict

• First Years and Baggage Story:
  • The Benhams share how their first major conflict came as early as their honeymoon, stemming from unmet expectations and differences in personality.
  • Quote: “I actually took the suitcase, I said, fine, here. And I threw it across the room... I knew right there at that moment that I was the idiot.” – Jason Benham (18:58)
• Not Agreement, But Understanding:
  • Focus less on demanding agreement and more on seeking to understand the other’s perspective.
  • Quote: “We had to learn…to seek understanding. Not agreement, but understanding.” – Tori Benham (20:33)

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7. Navigating Personalization in Conflict

• Women's Perspective:
  • For many wives, disagreement can feel personal, triggering guilt or shame and a sense of personal deficiency.
  • Quote: “Just because Jason doesn’t agree with me…doesn’t mean that I am now shamed…We’re just different…” – Tori Benham (21:54)
• Developing Faster Resolution:
  • Maturity in marriage means learning to ‘pivot’ quickly, not lingering in hurt or disagreement, but forgiving and moving on.
  • Quote: “When you can let go of those things quick or you're like, wow, I feel free.” – Tori Benham (23:58)

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8. Practical Mindset Switches

• For Husbands:
  • Focus on feelings, not just facts.
  • Be “curious, not convincing.”
  • Quote: “I need to seek to understand her more than to try to get her agreement.” – Jason Benham (23:28)
• For Wives:
  • Practice not taking things personally and reframing situations through small, intentional “practice sessions.” (24:16-24:49)
• Mutual Advice:
  • “Try to feel like your wife, try to think like your husband. That little pivot can help both snap out of hurt or go deeper in understanding.” – Jason Benham (24:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• “Are you enjoying your relationship with your wife as much as you’re enjoying what you’re experiencing in business?” – Jason Benham (00:44)
• “Zeroing in on zanyism... to be able to have a good laugh.” – Jason Benham (03:31)
• “Wipe your rear with this.” – Tori Benham (05:59)
• “Appreciation now leads to attraction because after marriage, the more you think about the things that you appreciate about your spouse, the more attracted you’ll be.” – Jason Benham (08:42)
• “Replace expectation with appreciation, and you’ll see your relationships blossom.” – Jason Benham (14:34)
• “Conflict is meant for connection. Conflict is something we don’t need to run away from, we actually need to run toward it.” – Jason Benham (15:16)
• “Be curious, not convincing.” – Jason Benham (23:28)
• “We make that pivot much more quickly... now we’ve gotten better at pivoting.” – Tori Benham (22:59)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Zeroing in on Humor: 03:26 – 06:17
• Attraction & Appreciation: 07:01 – 10:54
• Dependence on God, Not Spouse: 11:59 – 13:56
• Expectation vs. Appreciation: 14:34 – 14:56
• Cookie Dough Conflict Analogy: 15:12 – 17:02
• Navigating First Marital Conflicts: 17:43 – 20:33
• Agreement vs. Understanding: 20:33 – 23:28
• Learning to Pivot & Practice Resolution: 23:58 – 24:49

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Conclusion

Jason and Tori Benham’s candid discussion offers hope, humor, and high-impact advice rooted in faith and experience. Practicing appreciation, adding fun, and navigating conflict with understanding (not just agreement) are core takeaways. This episode provides not only strategies for relational transformation but also relatable encouragement for anyone seeking to “thrive in Christ” through marriage.

Resources mentioned:

• Marriage A to Z by Jason & Tori Benham
• Focus on the Family’s marriage assessments and counseling team
• [Link to show resources in show notes]

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Summary compiled using the original speakers’ tone and language, focusing on marriage enrichment and practical application for listeners.

Transcript

[A]

God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from FOCUS on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit truthrising.com today. That's truthrising.com.

[B]

But in the mornings I was getting up and praying really hard over my business and God was blessing it and I was passionate about it and things were going really well. Then one morning as I was praying for my business, the Lord convicted me, was like, are you enjoying your relationship with your wife as much as you're enjoying what you're experiencing in business?

[C]

Well, that's an admission from Jason Benham describing a turning point in his marriage. And Jason and his wife Tori are with us today to share some simple ideas about how you can transform your relationship with your spouse. Thanks for joining us. This is FOCUS on the FAMILY with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.

[A]

John, we are having Tori come in today to make sure Jason's held accountable. I just thought, wow, it's always tough to talk about your marriage in front of your wife. But listen, you guys have done a great job. We're going to introduce you properly here. You know, when you look at business organizations like you were mentioning in that clip, you know, we set out strategies, we have goals for CEOs and the founders of companies and they work diligently to try to be successful.

[D]

Right.

[A]

There's a plan, there's execution, it's measured typically. And you're looking at sales. And then some of us come home and we don't have that for our marriage. It's just not, we can't translate that into the same space.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And we struggle with that. I would say I'm guilty of that. I don't really think of a strategic plan for my marriage. And all the ladies went, what? But it's true. And today we want to give resource through the Benhams great book Marriage A to Z. And yes, we are going to cover Z today. And you know, just to give you the tools that you need in order to make sure you are thinking strategically for your marriage.

[C]

Yeah, this is going to be a tune up program for couples that are doing okay. And if you've got serious relationship issues, do call us. Our number is 800 a family. But the Benhams are terrific speakers and coaches and authors and they have a podcast called Beauty in Battle. And today, as Jim said, we'll be talking about their book Marriage a to z. 30 days to relational Transformation. And you can find out more about our guests in this book at our website. The link is in the show notes.

[A]

Jason and Tori, welcome back to Focus on the Family.

[E]

Thanks so much for having us.

[B]

I love being here with you guys.

[A]

Yeah, it's good to have you. It's always fun. And I think when you look at something like this Marriage A to Z, you must be covering it all.

[B]

Yeah, well, we actually decided to go with 30 principles, but I thought, well, let's start it from the letter A to the letter Z. But then I realized that's only 26 letters, so he had to have four more.

[A]

A, A, B, B, C, C, DD.

[B]

A to Z plus four.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. This is a little unorthodox, and I know, you know, we're gonna get there, but so often when we do something like this, we cover A, we cover B, and we're pretty much done by D or E. So I'm gonna start with Z. Oh, yeah. Just for fun, let's go to the end of your Alphabet just to grab people. What was Z?

[B]

Z? Z is zeroing in on zanyism.

[A]

I like this already.

[B]

And so let me say, you know, about the book. We just took 30 principles, relationship principles, and we set it up to where couples can go through one principle per day with a little exercise at the end to help you strengthen your connection. We got to Z, and I was praying. I was like, what in the world, Z? But then I thought, the one thing that we didn't have in the book that really helps couples draw closer together is adding humor into their relationship.

[A]

Yeah, that's so good.

[B]

That's what zeroing in on zanism is all about. Like, to be able to have a good laugh. And now brain science is catching up. When you start laughing with somebody, it actually draws you close with the people that you laugh.

[A]

So it's a bonding thing.

[B]

Wow, that's really cool.

[A]

That's really interesting. I hadn't thought about humor being a bonding agent in relationship, but that's certainly true for guys. I don't know if that's true for women.

[E]

Oh, absolutely.

[A]

Really?

[E]

We really can't take ourselves too seriously. Well, we can, but it's not in our best interest.

[A]

I mean, for guys, that jocularity, if I could refer to it that way, I mean, you were in sports. I played sports. John, did you play sports?

[C]

A little bit.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Not to your mind, but that.

[A]

That humor is kind of what binds a team together, even it's kind of interesting, you know, Absolutely thought about it.

[B]

And I remember a time when Tori and I, we were probably, what, towards, say, three or four years into marriage. And at that point, I wasn't making a lot of money. I didn't have my own business, and I was kind of cheap, to be honest, and was putting the pressure on her. We need to save money and all sorts of things. And we took our young kids to the fair, and I was complaining about how expensive the turkey legs were. And she wanted to get kind of.

[A]

A downer day for you.

[D]

I know.

[B]

So bad.

[E]

I was not in the greatest mood.

[B]

And I remember. What was it, Tori? It was a $5 bill.

[E]

I'm really. I'm embarrassed that you brought up this story.

[B]

Okay, well.

[E]

But yes, we were at the fair, and he was just being so sour about being there. He was like, why are we here? We don't have the money to do this. And of course, I, like, had dreamed about this moment when we'd have kids and we can finally go to the fair.

[A]

This is your.

[E]

This is my moment. Like, our kids finally are at an age where they can kind of enjoy the fair. But it was very hot and stuffy and a lot of people. And Jason was not feeling it, and he was really complaining about the money. He was like, why are we spending money on this? You know? And you can tell.

[B]

I can tell from there. So I asked her. She needed me to get something for one of the kids. I said, well, I'm going to need five bucks. And she took five dollars out of her bill folder or whatever, and she wadded up and threw it at me. And she said, awesome. But listen, the best part, she said, wipe your rear with this.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

Oh.

[E]

I have no idea where it came from. It was the best thing I could reach for. Yeah, you're trying to make a point. Yeah, but we.

[A]

Did she make it? Well.

[E]

Well, she did. We both started dying laughing because it was like, where did that even come from?

[B]

The reason I bring that.

[A]

Frustration, expectation.

[E]

But the words like, what?

[B]

Why would she even say that now, the reason I bring that up is because now, 25 years later, every now and then, we'll get into an argument or a tiff. She might. Or I might. We might say something like, wipe your rear end with this.

[E]

It's kind of our way to be.

[C]

Like, okay, enough cuts through the clothes.

[A]

I thought you were going to say, you take a $5bill out of your wallet, you roll it up and smack.

[B]

I venmo her five bucks.

[A]

Hey, you've been married for 20 plus years just to, you know, kind of set the stage for everybody. We've done a very intimate job at that already.

[C]

That's great.

[A]

But let's go back to when you met and you know, sometimes people say love at first sight. And did that happen for you guys?

[B]

Well, we were really good friends at first sight, but then the love came about a year later.

[A]

Wow, that's interesting.

[B]

Yeah, it was fantastic. But which I love that we had a solid friendship. But then that year later, I saw her. I was in Bluefield, West Virginia, playing for the Baltimore Orioles short season rookie ball team. And her and her family came to visit me. And she got out of the car and it was like all of a sudden everything went in slow motion. The wind started blowing, her hair started going back. And I knew at that moment that she needed me. She could not live without me.

[A]

Now this is what's so fun about having the spouse here. So, Tori, did you have that same feeling or did you see Jason in his uniform and go, oh, that's the guy?

[E]

For me, I did. It was kind of a love at first sight that season or that particular game. For us, it was kind of like, wow, I see you in a different light. He saw me in a different light. And we were, you know, it was the beginning of something for. And actually the first letter A in this book is appreciate to attract. And you know, when you're dating and when you first meet, there's that initial attraction and it comes through appreciation. Right. I appreciate the way that you are. I appreciate the way you look. Or there's all these things that I appreciated in Jason that I could see that I was really, you know, drawn to and I. That attraction produce appreciation, but it's kind of like what comes first, the chicken or the egg with appreciation, attraction, they go hand in hand.

[A]

I think it's the visual thing. Dr. Dobson used to talk about that. I mean, starts with that attraction being visual. And then eventually it's touch, you know, holding a hand.

[E]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And then eventually it's the kiss.

[E]

Exactly.

[A]

Whatever that might be. But that's the normal progression. But you have to notice each other first.

[E]

Exactly.

[B]

That's why I think before marriage, attraction leads to appreciation. So I'm. I was attracted to Tori. Right. And so then we started talking. Now it's like, oh, I appreciate your personality. And it's like, so attraction. It's very good right there. Thank you, Jim. Yeah. But you know what? Coaching after marriage, it's reversed. Appreciation now leads to attraction because after marriage, the more you think about the things that you appreciate about your spouse, the more attracted you'll be. And when appreciation is the genesis for your attraction, it's so much deeper, you.

[A]

Know, in that regard. And this is just a general question, I don't think you covered this in the book, but there's scientific data that shows that that bonding that we're talking about is partly in this area of attraction, but it lasts. You might call it infatuation, but there's a time limit on that. It can last from six months to two years. That's why marriages that start hot in terms of that attraction can grow cold rather quickly. And you're going, what happened? Because it was built on infatuation.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Not deeper things.

[B]

And the way to get past that is appreciation. Because what appreciation does when you focus on gratitude, it's like when we read Psalm 100, where it says, enter my gates with thanksgiving and my courts with praise.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's like gates and courts. Well, that's a picture of the temple where God's presence was. We start with thanksgiving to God and we. It ushers us into his presence where his power is. Now incorporate that into your relationships. If you think appreciative thoughts and thoughts of gratitude and thankfulness towards your spouse and you just randomly think those things, what happens is your brain releases a hormone called oxytocin and dopamine. Dopamine is a feel good chemical. Oxytocin is a bonding chemical. The person that you're thinking thankful thoughts toward bond, it bonds you to them. And when you express those thoughts, it releases oxytocin and dopamine in their brains and bonds them to you. So God is giving us a little relationship hack right there, saying, look, you want to draw close to me and me to you. Start with Thanksgiving. Oh, and you want to try that in your marriage, Watch what happens. And that's how appreciation can lead you to a deeper level of attraction than you've ever felt before.

[A]

We had a guest on that made that recommendation if you, you know, just to improve your marital situation, just give your spouse three compliments, you know, three things a day, and you will watch her or him begin to blossom. I thought, oh, that's really good. I'm aiming at that. Gene's listening. I'm sure I got the report card coming, but, you know, that's a great way to go.

[B]

But Jim, you look nice today. You're handsome and have a great personality.

[A]

You've already won me over.

[E]

And you feel bonded to Jason Tori.

[A]

Let me ask you this. You're a mom of four. You're busy. It sounds like you guys pretty much do traditional roles, and we know that in households today, that can be divided up and not just not mom does the chores. And I get that. But one particular night, I think you went for a walk and you felt overwhelmed as a mom of four. And I'm sure they were little at the time. And it's like, that's a season. There's moms listening and watching on YouTube. They're going, I'm in that season right now. How did you feel? What did the walk do for you? And how did you have a touch of blessing afterward?

[E]

Well, this was a season where the Lord was really trying to teach me that he is my source. And I think for me, for me, early on in our relationship, I began to really look to Jason as a source of my happiness, as a source of, you know, my help. There were so many things I began to expect from him that the Lord really needed to get help me to get to a place where I saw him as my source and not Jason as my source. And so I remember that day we talked about it in this book where I was just having a really stressful time with the kids. I was homeschooling at the time.

[A]

Let's just throw that on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But good for you. I applaud your for homeschooling.

[E]

Thank you.

[D]

For 12 years.

[A]

Yeah, good for you. I bet your kids are solid.

[E]

And so I'm just trying to kind of unwind. And I remember I. Jason came home from work, and I said, I just need some space to, like, get my thoughts together. I'm really struggling. And I just went for a walk. And I remember the Lord just really speaking to me about that he is the one. He is my source. He's my source of contentment. He's my source of joy. And as I'm taking this walk, and I'm like, okay, Lord, well, if you're my source, then I'm going to surrender to you. I'm going to trust you that I can do this. Like, right now, I do not feel like I can do this another day. I don't feel like I have the capacity. I don't feel like I even have the tools to do all that you have asked me to do. But if you are my source, then I'm going to trust you. And it was just this kind of act of surrender through this walk. And I walked into the house, and Jason had cleaned up the kitchen for me without Me saying a word. And it was just this, like, really beautiful moment for both Jason and I and the Lord to where I'm like, I know that was the Lord putting it on Jason's heart. The Lord is my source. He then used Jason to meet a need in me. But I saw it as the Lord. I saw it as God.

[A]

You said, okay, Lord, I'll put it on you.

[E]

And it was kind of a pivotal time for me to where I was like that. You know, I don't have to put all these expectations on Jason. I can expect God to show up when he.

[A]

That's a very hard thing to get to, though. I mean, really, I think expectations in marriage are probably the most difficult.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

Because just that they're expectations. And when you don't fulfill that for your spouse, it's like, bam. It's a hit to the face. It feels like, I thought you were going to do this. I would say most arguments in marriage are built around expectations unfulfilled. And so that's really good counseling.

[B]

I've heard the definition that disappointment is the gap between expectation and reality. And we just read a quote. I forget who it was by, but replace expectation with appreciation, and you'll see your relationships blossom.

[E]

Yeah. We actually started out the chapter appreciate to attract with trade expectation for with appreciation, and watch your world change.

[A]

Wow, that's a good one, too. Let's talk about cookie dough. Is everybody happy? Yeah. All the audience are happy about cookie dough. Now, Gene is a big, raw cookie dough eater. Yeah, me too. I couldn't quite get there. I like the baked kind of cookie dough. But speak to the cookie dough analogy.

[B]

Okay. The cookie dough. The cookie dough analogy. Well, you know, it's all about conflict.

[A]

So this is C. Yeah, it's C.

[B]

It's all about conflict, because conflict is meant for connection. Conflict is something we don't need to run away from. We actually need to run toward it. Conflict is the opportunity to turn me into we. And why we use cookie dough as an analogy is it's just a fantastic analogy for how you can just do some amazing things with different ingredients. So just think about cookie dough for a second. Tori makes these amazing ranger cookies.

[A]

Okay, I'm looking forward to one.

[B]

So. But it's basically chocolate chip cookies with some oats in it. But it's all, you know, kamut flour and coconut sugar, organic ingredients. All the stuff that's good.

[A]

You should have brought them this time.

[B]

So if you think about flour, sugar, vanilla, oats, chocolate, all that kind of stuff, all those different Things that you put into cookie dough. If you have those ingredients each individually, you've never taken, like a spoonful of flour and gone, mmm, that flour tastes really good. Or take a spoonful of the sugar and be like, wow, that's. That sugar. That's amazing sugar. No, no, you have to blend them together first. You have to put them into the bowl and you have to blend them together and you bring in what's called the bonding agent, which is eggs. Now all of a sudden, you can dip your spoon in there and take a bite, and you've tasted something really good. The bowl represents conflict. God is the baker. The eggs is the Holy Spirit. God takes two individuals completely different from each other. Me and Tori couldn't be more different. And puts us into the bowl of conflict and says, now, if you guys yield to the Holy Spirit, let me do my thing. I know this is uncomfortable now, but what's going to come out on the other side is going to nourish people. And once we recognize that conflict is meant to take you from me and turn you into we that can actually help and bless other people changes the ball game with conflict.

[A]

Wow. I'm feeling like a lazy cookie eater right now. I could never give it that much thought. That's amazing. Getting that spiritual depth out of cookie dough.

[C]

But next time you and Gene have any conflict, I think about cookies this.

[A]

Weekend is cookie spiritual cookie dough.

[C]

We're going to have Tori's Ranger cookie recipe online. We'll have details about their great book, Marriage a to z, 30 days to relational Transformation, and a free marriage assessment for you. While you're eating your cookies, you can take this and learn more about where you're strong and maybe opportunities to grow in your relationship. All of it's going to be linked in the show notes. And Jason and Tori, I understand you didn't from the book that you did not have really any conflict in your dating relationship.

[A]

Joined the crowd.

[C]

It didn't happen until you had kids at the time.

[B]

Isn't that funny?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, before you get married, you tend to focus on what's right with your fiance or girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever. But then after you get married, you tend to focus on what's wrong that's such a problem.

[A]

It's okay. You cut my hair off. I didn't really need it.

[B]

Yeah, you don't really need that little buzz cut. I remember being on our honeymoon and we learned three days in after being married what conflict was all about.

[A]

Oh, do tell.

[B]

We went on a trip and I didn't realize that Tori needed, you know, basically to. Have you guys ever watched the Titanic when the girl packed all those trunks and stuff for the trip? Like, Tori had packed a massive suitcase full of stuff. And I'm like, we don't really need it. It's a three day, you know, cruise that we're going on or whatever. We kind of had a little disagreement there.

[E]

To my. To my credit, I didn't know where we were going. He just said, pack.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that right there says a lot of shoes.

[E]

How am I to know.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

What to pack?

[B]

It was a rookie mistake for a guy. I've. I've since learned not to do that. But we kind of were bickering a little bit throughout that. That entire trip. She got a little seasick. I should have checked. Does she get seasick before I booked a cruise and all of this? And so now this. I'm missing my steak and lobster dinner.

[A]

This is day three.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

So expectations are going out the window quick.

[B]

So now it's time for us to pack up and leave the boat. And we start packing up. And I'm slowly but surely growing more and more frustrated at the fact that I have to put all of these clothes in the suitcase. And she said something to me, like, let me put the suitcase together. I'll pack it up. And I actually took the suitcase, I said, fine, here. And I threw it across the room. Open. Yeah, I didn't throw it at her, but I threw it across the room. And I knew right there at that moment that I was the idiot and that she was.

[A]

This is still day three or day seven.

[B]

This went into. This was probably day seven.

[E]

Honeymoon's over.

[A]

You see this luggage and all your clothes flying out of there. What are you thinking?

[E]

Oh, I was just so upset. I was just, you know, who's this man that I married? This is not the man Crazy from three days ago, Right?

[A]

Yes.

[E]

Yeah. And what we learned very quickly through conflict is that we wanted agreement. I wanted him to agree with me. I wanted him to understand why I felt the way I felt, why I packed. Why can't he just understand and agree that that was the right decision? Right. And he wants me to agree with. That was the worst decision you could do. Now we have to drag this thing from A to B and all these places. And that wasn't like, that was a bad decision. Don't you agree with me? But we didn't agree. And so what we had to learn, and it took us years to learn, was that to try to seek understanding that if I.

[A]

Not agreement.

[E]

Not agreement, but understanding. Like. Okay, let me just. Let me just think about what, you know, how to see it from your perspective. Why don't you see it from my perspective? And we don't have to agree on anything, but let's just try to be curious and understand each other a little bit.

[A]

Let me ask you this. And I think, again, this is coming from my experience in Jean. Jean and I. But it felt like when we were learning this, and I'm not saying we have graduated from the school of marriage, but the one thing it felt like. And as I've talked to other men, women take this very personally.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

The agreement is more than just agreeing with me, because if there's disagreement, it reflects upon me, like, somehow I'm deficient.

[E]

Yes, that is true.

[A]

And we're going. It's only dinner.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

You know. You know, we just don't agree on what we might eat tonight for dinner. But there seems to be, like, this ability of women that. And I think it's an amazing thing. Women look to themselves first far more than men. Like, where have I blown it? How have I let him down? You just have a better capacity to looking at the log in your own eye. I mean, women do that very well. Men don't. We got ego galore. Right. So how did you depersonalize that to where you could have not have agreement and still be okay with Jason?

[E]

I think that for us women, sometimes there's a lot of guilt and shame involved. And I think for me personally, I had to really get to the bottom of that. Like, there's this. Just because Jason doesn't agree with me on this situation doesn't mean that. That I am now shamed or have a reason to feel guilty. It's like, we're just different. And it's. And it really is just not taking myself so seriously. Right. Like, that everything is. You know, we do have this tendency to, like, to kind of put it back on. Oh, what did I do wrong? No, you know what? We're just. This is just a difference of opinion. We're different, and we can move on, and it's kind of just making that pivot more quickly. I think when we first got married, that pivot took a long time. You know, it took a long time for me to be like, it's not that big of a deal. We just see things differently. And I don't need him to agree with me, to feel confident in what I'm in my decision and what I'm doing. And as we Began as I began to grow, I think. And to be able to let go of that, it's like we make that pivot much more quickly. And now here we are almost 25 years and it's like now we've gotten better and better at pivoting.

[B]

And what I've learned is that I have to, as the husband, I have to look at the feeling and not the fact that.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And so we're hard on facts.

[B]

Right. So I'm looking. Okay. What is she feeling? Regardless of whether or not there's no logic involved, the fact is, is that I have to make sure that I get curious, not convincing. And as guys, that's a hard thing because I'm a really good convincer. I can out argue anybody. Jim, skill set. I'd like to get into an argument with you after this. It'd be fun, show you how I could dominate you, but I can't.

[A]

I was thinking the same thing.

[B]

I can't be convincing. I need to be curious because I need to seek to understand her more than to try to get her agreement. And once you understand that, then it really helps you with confidence.

[A]

But Tori, I appreciate the honesty of that. That's a process in maturing in your marriage. I think, especially again, not to take things personal because it all feels so personal. And when you can relax that and find a better place to be to receive those comments, that's a healthier place to be.

[E]

And you free yourself up when you can let go of those things quick or you're like, wow, I feel free.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She's even said before that sometimes she would love if just women learned how to take these things, like men in a locker room where they can say things about each other or whatever. They just get over it real quick.

[A]

Yeah. I would say on behalf of women and nothing gets done.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

All we do agree to do something that.

[E]

But I think it's a matter of practice. I think if we look at it as practice, if women say, you know what, I'm going to practice that I'm going to practice pivoting more quickly. And when Jason does something, I'm not going to actually take it so seriously. I'm not going to take it so personally. I'm going to practice. And then you get one win under your belt. You're like, oh, I did it. I was able to change my thinking and that really worked well for our relationship. I'm going to practice again. I think we get overwhelmed when we think we have all these changes to make and how are we Going to do it? No, just one step at a time. One practice session.

[A]

Yeah, that's good.

[B]

In our coaching, we tell the husband, try to feel like your wife, try to feel like your wife and wife, try to think like your husband. And just that little pivot right there can help her snap out of things a little quicker because that's what guys do. And it can help him dig a little deeper because that's what women naturally do.

[D]

What a wonderful conversation today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guests are Jason and Tori Benham and they're talking about their book Marriage a to z, 30 days to relational Transformation. This is such good stuff, Jim. And it's so practical.

[A]

I agree, John. And we all need good reminders like this to increase the fun in our marriages and bring down levels of conflict and find ways to bond together as husband and wife. Here at Focus on the Family, we want to help you do that. We've got lots of resources for you, like our counseling team and our online marriage assessment and the Benhams book. If you can send a gift of any amount to the ministry, we'll put that into your hands as our way of saying thank you. And right now you have an opportunity to be part of our marriage building team. Some generous friends are willing to match any gift you send, which means your giving will have twice the impact. $5 becomes 10, 10, 20, and so on, helping us strengthen more marriages, rescue more hurting couples, and deliver more hope and joy to families as we head into the holidays.

[D]

And God is doing remarkable things through this ministry. Jim, We've been here both of long time and he continues to do tremendous work in people's lives. We heard from a woman named Barbara who said, I know your magazine articles and podcasts over the years have made me a more godly wife and mother and she's sharing our content with her daughter who is now married. And Barbara said, I told her focus on the Family resources are like marriage and family vitamins.

[A]

I like that. Marriage and family vitamins. Let's work together to dispense these spiritual vitamins out to his many couples and families as possible. And let's see what God will do to transform our culture. And John, I want to reiterate the fact I think Focus is having its greatest impact right now. The numbers are great. Over 290,000 decisions for Christ just in the last 12 months. Be part of it.

[D]

Yeah. Donate today when you call 800 the letter A and the word family. 800-232-6459 or make that contribution online and double your gift and get the book by Jason and Tori marriage A to Z when you click the link in the show notes. And join us again tomorrow when we have an insightful conversation about parenting adult children who are prodigals.

[E]

If I do all the right things at the other end, I'm going to be guaranteed that this Christ following child who never questions and has an amazing life. And that doesn't always happen because we birthed people with free will.

[D]

Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

[A]

God is at work and he's calling his people to rise in truth. Truth Rising is a powerful new documentary from Focus on the Family and the Colson Center. See how ordinary Christians choose courage in a culture that needs truth. Watch Truth Rising today and find out how you can become an agent of restoration and hope. Visit truthrising.com today. That's truthrising.com.